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This article has very few references for its length and has been tagged for improvement for a long time. I propose to clean up unreferenced material. Does anyone have any objections? -- John ( talk) 19:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
For some reason, this article was created as "Hasidic Judaism". But this appellation is very rare in literature etc. Everyone calls it " Hasidism": Encyclopedia Judaica, YIVO Encyclopedia and so forth. I propose a move. AddMore-III ( talk) 05:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
AddMore-III is correct that "Hasidism" gets many more hits (290,000) than "Hasidic Judaism" (54,500) . But "Hasidic Jews" gets 411,000, suggesting that the adjectival form is much more common than the noun form. So I would stick with "Hasidic Judaism". -- Ravpapa ( talk) 17:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
I raised this above at "Brooklyn: "Orthodox Abuse Suspects Get Exemption"". I worry about this article. Anyone who knows about Hasidic Jews knows that there are various social problems (I worked with them for some years as a social worker), and these include criminal activities. Money laundering is one example, see [1] and Spinka financial controversy. Then there's the sad Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community. None of this is mentioned or linked in this article. It would be clearly wrong to make a big deal of any of this, but no mention at all? Doug Weller talk 13:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus here and in the above section ( #Name change) is strongly against this move. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum ¤ 04:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Hasidic Judaism → Hasidism – As demonstrated above, all English-language encyclopedias ( Britannica, Judaica, YIVO, Jewish Encyclopedia etc.) use the term "Hasidism"; it also outnumbers "Hasidic Judaism" 290,000 to 54,500 on Google, 103,000 to 3,900 on Google Books, 9,800 to 695 on Google Scholar. The only serious counter-argument was that "Hasidic Judaism" sounds more English than "Hasidism"; this is both incorrect (Hasidism, Hasidic, same same) and irrelevant, cf. all encyclopedias and reference works. AddMore-III ( talk) 07:16, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Pinging, @ Debresser, Ravpapa, and Doug Weller:
This page could use some more information on the history of Hassidism how Hassidism spread in Eastern Europe. I would want to include information from "Stampfer Why Hassidism Spread". In this article, he discusses what allowed Hassidism to spread, one of his main points being the use of shtibles. If anyone on this page had any comments or additions to what I want to add I would love to know ( Alexis2552 ( talk) 02:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC))
Alexis, it would be nice to know the full reference; it isn't clear what "Stampfer Why Hassidism Spread" refers to. Chapmansh ( talk) 00:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
To be impartial, the article needs to deal with the critics of Hasidic Judaism and the points they raise. Here are some materials that might be helpful:
deisenbe ( talk) 11:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I put the POV template back in. When the whole topic is never referred to in the article, it does not have a neutral POV.
Here is another piece, from a recent New York Times, to add to those above:
If there were a separate article on opposition/escapees from Hasidic/Haredi/Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, the matter could be settled by a reference to it. While there is an article on Criticism of Judaism as a whole, I cannot find this material treated anywhere in WP. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. deisenbe ( talk) 13:35, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
What does OTD mean? deisenbe ( talk)
There is a redirect to here from Chassidic, which was a link on another page (Kaftan). I followed the link as the term was unfamiliar, Hasidic is something I am aware of. Should Chassidic be mentioned in this article, and/or would it be better to use Hasidic in the other article? ˥ Ǝ Ʉ H Ɔ I Ɯ ( talk) 23:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
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But some of you would love it to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 06:49, 6 May 2018 (UTC) You don't get to decide for history, AddMore-III, what was and was not a heresy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 02:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Failure to engage on this page is a suggestion that you are not interested in discussion, only your own religion. The problem with DECLARING something a heresy, is that that is what rabbis and popes do. Neither has special authority over history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 15:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
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Softball practice is a group. Queen is a rock group. Methodism is a sect. Calvinism is a sect. Hasidism is a sect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 15:44, 18 May 2018 (UTC) |
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Not in the edit notes. I'll say it again: THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DOCUMENT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 03:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
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Will need to be addressed in some form in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 03:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC) Are your goals an accurate encyclopedia? Or religious propaganda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 03:49, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
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The recent complaint seems to be that the article doesn't mention any of the sexual abuse scandals which have been documented within Hasidic communities. Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community is one, but it appears this is not isolated, per [2] which is about Jerusalem. There is also the issue that this is not necessarily about Hasidic communities, but all Haredi and Orthodox communities in general, such as discussed by this source from Toronto. This has already been brought up, but I'm bringing it up again, since nothing seemed to have come from it.
If this is to be included, it really needs to be supported by a high-quality reliable source as a defining issue. Listing examples is going to be WP:SYNTH, and picking-and-choosing specific tragedies to imply something nefarious is obviously non-neutral and reprehensible. No article should be a platform for antisemitic propaganda, but this article should cover the full-range of what reliable sources have to say about the topic. Grayfell ( talk) 04:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
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Sources [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] Slatersteven ( talk) 07:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Chassidic redirects to Hasidic Judaism, but this article has no mention of the term/spelling. Could it be added in some reasonable manner? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 09:08, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
AddMore-III,
the problem is in this form it is misudrerstandable because of contemporary, etc. Ok, Western Ukraine is a relative term, including as well historical regions, but appoints a territory of a present-day country which in the referred timeline did not exist in those territories. After several trials, I'll try once more another easier solution to resolve this. Thank You( KIENGIR ( talk) 21:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC))
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Alexis2552.
Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT ( talk) 23:07, 16 January 2022 (UTC)
This article has very few references for its length and has been tagged for improvement for a long time. I propose to clean up unreferenced material. Does anyone have any objections? -- John ( talk) 19:15, 17 November 2015 (UTC)
For some reason, this article was created as "Hasidic Judaism". But this appellation is very rare in literature etc. Everyone calls it " Hasidism": Encyclopedia Judaica, YIVO Encyclopedia and so forth. I propose a move. AddMore-III ( talk) 05:40, 5 April 2016 (UTC)
AddMore-III is correct that "Hasidism" gets many more hits (290,000) than "Hasidic Judaism" (54,500) . But "Hasidic Jews" gets 411,000, suggesting that the adjectival form is much more common than the noun form. So I would stick with "Hasidic Judaism". -- Ravpapa ( talk) 17:11, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
I raised this above at "Brooklyn: "Orthodox Abuse Suspects Get Exemption"". I worry about this article. Anyone who knows about Hasidic Jews knows that there are various social problems (I worked with them for some years as a social worker), and these include criminal activities. Money laundering is one example, see [1] and Spinka financial controversy. Then there's the sad Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community. None of this is mentioned or linked in this article. It would be clearly wrong to make a big deal of any of this, but no mention at all? Doug Weller talk 13:01, 7 April 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. Consensus here and in the above section ( #Name change) is strongly against this move. ( closed by non-admin page mover) Calidum ¤ 04:40, 17 June 2016 (UTC)
Hasidic Judaism → Hasidism – As demonstrated above, all English-language encyclopedias ( Britannica, Judaica, YIVO, Jewish Encyclopedia etc.) use the term "Hasidism"; it also outnumbers "Hasidic Judaism" 290,000 to 54,500 on Google, 103,000 to 3,900 on Google Books, 9,800 to 695 on Google Scholar. The only serious counter-argument was that "Hasidic Judaism" sounds more English than "Hasidism"; this is both incorrect (Hasidism, Hasidic, same same) and irrelevant, cf. all encyclopedias and reference works. AddMore-III ( talk) 07:16, 10 June 2016 (UTC)
Pinging, @ Debresser, Ravpapa, and Doug Weller:
This page could use some more information on the history of Hassidism how Hassidism spread in Eastern Europe. I would want to include information from "Stampfer Why Hassidism Spread". In this article, he discusses what allowed Hassidism to spread, one of his main points being the use of shtibles. If anyone on this page had any comments or additions to what I want to add I would love to know ( Alexis2552 ( talk) 02:16, 25 April 2017 (UTC))
Alexis, it would be nice to know the full reference; it isn't clear what "Stampfer Why Hassidism Spread" refers to. Chapmansh ( talk) 00:01, 9 May 2017 (UTC)
To be impartial, the article needs to deal with the critics of Hasidic Judaism and the points they raise. Here are some materials that might be helpful:
deisenbe ( talk) 11:30, 4 May 2017 (UTC)
I put the POV template back in. When the whole topic is never referred to in the article, it does not have a neutral POV.
Here is another piece, from a recent New York Times, to add to those above:
If there were a separate article on opposition/escapees from Hasidic/Haredi/Ultra-Orthodox Judaism, the matter could be settled by a reference to it. While there is an article on Criticism of Judaism as a whole, I cannot find this material treated anywhere in WP. Please enlighten me if I am mistaken. deisenbe ( talk) 13:35, 15 May 2017 (UTC)
What does OTD mean? deisenbe ( talk)
There is a redirect to here from Chassidic, which was a link on another page (Kaftan). I followed the link as the term was unfamiliar, Hasidic is something I am aware of. Should Chassidic be mentioned in this article, and/or would it be better to use Hasidic in the other article? ˥ Ǝ Ʉ H Ɔ I Ɯ ( talk) 23:38, 9 December 2017 (UTC)
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But some of you would love it to be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 06:49, 6 May 2018 (UTC) You don't get to decide for history, AddMore-III, what was and was not a heresy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 02:38, 9 May 2018 (UTC) Failure to engage on this page is a suggestion that you are not interested in discussion, only your own religion. The problem with DECLARING something a heresy, is that that is what rabbis and popes do. Neither has special authority over history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 15:59, 17 May 2018 (UTC)
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Softball practice is a group. Queen is a rock group. Methodism is a sect. Calvinism is a sect. Hasidism is a sect. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 15:44, 18 May 2018 (UTC) |
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Not in the edit notes. I'll say it again: THIS IS NOT A RELIGIOUS DOCUMENT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 03:14, 20 May 2018 (UTC)
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Will need to be addressed in some form in this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 03:43, 21 May 2018 (UTC) Are your goals an accurate encyclopedia? Or religious propaganda? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2605:E000:5FC0:7B:5CE9:9484:A3EC:E71A ( talk) 03:49, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
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The recent complaint seems to be that the article doesn't mention any of the sexual abuse scandals which have been documented within Hasidic communities. Sexual abuse cases in Brooklyn's Haredi community is one, but it appears this is not isolated, per [2] which is about Jerusalem. There is also the issue that this is not necessarily about Hasidic communities, but all Haredi and Orthodox communities in general, such as discussed by this source from Toronto. This has already been brought up, but I'm bringing it up again, since nothing seemed to have come from it.
If this is to be included, it really needs to be supported by a high-quality reliable source as a defining issue. Listing examples is going to be WP:SYNTH, and picking-and-choosing specific tragedies to imply something nefarious is obviously non-neutral and reprehensible. No article should be a platform for antisemitic propaganda, but this article should cover the full-range of what reliable sources have to say about the topic. Grayfell ( talk) 04:33, 23 May 2018 (UTC)
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Sources [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] Slatersteven ( talk) 07:35, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
Chassidic redirects to Hasidic Judaism, but this article has no mention of the term/spelling. Could it be added in some reasonable manner? Gråbergs Gråa Sång ( talk) 09:08, 4 April 2019 (UTC)
AddMore-III,
the problem is in this form it is misudrerstandable because of contemporary, etc. Ok, Western Ukraine is a relative term, including as well historical regions, but appoints a territory of a present-day country which in the referred timeline did not exist in those territories. After several trials, I'll try once more another easier solution to resolve this. Thank You( KIENGIR ( talk) 21:04, 12 November 2019 (UTC))