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... has some interesting ideas about Biblical history ... interesting in a way that I think is the fringe of the fringe. There is thus a vote for deletion here. Those of you who are knowledgable and care about Biblical history, please check it out. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Good news (Christianity) is forked from here and should be merged back after being corrected for WP:OR. Objections? Agreement? -- Secisek ( talk) 10:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Please don't merge. I found the article in question by typing "gospel" into the search box. It would never have occurred to me to type "good news." Ctmctm ( talk) 22:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree not to merge. I find this article complete and succinct in itself. I think it becomes diffused with the Good news (Christianity) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itchjones ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Should this article address the use of the term "gospel" as a generic term? Does "gospel" generically mean "opinion", "dogma", "enlightenment", "doctrine" etc.? I suggest this article should include an exploration of the generic concept "gospel" as well as its roots in Christianity. Mrrealtime ( talk) 13:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Is there anybody out there interested in the idea of making a wikipedia article comparing the 4 gospels? Here is the rough draft:
Mathew (and Mark) | Luke 1 | Luke 2 | John |
---|---|---|---|
In the beginning was the Word | |||
Zechariah sees Gabriel and becomes mute. Elizabeth becomes pregnant. hides 5 months | |||
angel tells Joseph to marry Mary | Mary sees Gabriel. Mary goes to Zechariahs house. stays 3 months | ||
John born. Zechariah speaks. Jesus born in Bethlehem. Magi go to Jerusalem then Bethlehem. | Jesus born in Bethlehem. laid in manger. shepherds come to see him. | ||
on the 8th day they go to Jerusalem. Simeon and Anna. Go to Egypt. Go to Nazareth. | |||
when Jesus was 12 he is accidently left behind in Jerusalem. | |||
John the Baptist in the wilderness | in 15th year of Tiberius, John preaches in country around Jordon. | Bethany beyond Jordon. John baptises. | |
Baptism of Jesus | baptism of Jesus | Baptism of Jesus | |
Andrew, Peter, Philip follow Jesus. Fig tree. Wedding in Cana. Went to Capernaum for a few days. | |||
fasted 40 days in desert. (as Moses was 40 years in desert before Exodus, the first Passover) | fasted 40 days in desert | ||
temptation | temptation | went to Jerusalem for Passover. Nicodemus. | |
John in prison | (John imprisoned for rebuking Herod over Herodias) | argument between Johns disciples and a Certain Jew. the Phairisees heard that Jesus baptised more than John. | |
Jesus goes to Capernaum | Jesus passes through Samaria. Samaritan woman. (four months to harvest?) | ||
calls Simon, Andrew, James, John from their boats | |||
preaching & healing in Galilee | |||
Beautitudes (as one having authority) | Beautitudes. then went to Capernaum | ||
leper healed | |||
paralyzed servant of Centurion in Capernaum healed by a word | servant of Centurion in Capernaum healed by word | Cana. Son of royal official sick in Capernaum. | |
(mark only) demon possessed man in synagogue. | demon possessed man in synagogue | ||
Peters house. mothers fever. | Peters house. mothers fever | ||
at evening many demon possessed healed with a word | at evening demon possessed healed by laying on hands | ||
at daybreak, went to solitary places | |||
John asks 'are you the one coming'? dinner in Pharisees house. sinful woman. throughout towns and villages with 12. | |||
Let the dead bury the dead. Crosses the lake. rebuked storm on lake | orders peter to put out into deep water and let his net down. great catch of fish. | rebukes the storm | |
2 demon possessed men | sailed to Gerasenes. healed man possessed by legion. | ||
came to 'his town'. paralytic on mat | heals paralytic on mat | Jerusalem. Feast of the Jews. invalid on mat at pool of bethesda | |
called Levi | called levi at his booth | ||
dinner at Levi's house. Sinners came and ate with him. Parisees ask why do you eat with sinners? Johns disciples ask why do you not fast? ruler asked him to raise his dead daughter. | great banquet at levis house. Pharisees ask 'why do you eat with sinners' and 'why do you not fast'? | Jairus, ruler of synagogue, asks him to heal his dying daughter. | |
woman bleeding for 12 years | woman bleeding for 12 years | ||
raises dead girl | raises dead girl | ||
indoors. heals 2 blind men. heals demon possessed mute. crowd amazed. pharisees said he drives out demons by beelzebub. | |||
went throughaut towns and villages. harvest is plentiful. | |||
gave the 12 authority to heal. sent them out. | gave the 12 authority to heal. sent them out. | ||
went on to Galilee | |||
John asks 'are you the one coming'? | |||
woe to you Korazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum. | |||
grainfields on the sabbath | (grainfields on the sabbath) | ||
shriveled hand in synagogue | |||
Pharisees plot to kill Jesus. Jensus withdrew. went incognito. | |||
healed demon possessed blind mute. Pharisees say 'by beelzebub'. kingdom divided. blasphemy against the spirit. | |||
no sign except the sign of Jonah | |||
mother and brothers stood outside | |||
that same day, by the lake. the parable of the sower, of the weeds, of the mustard seed | |||
into house. exp0ained the parables. parable of hidden treasure, of the net. | |||
came to his hometown. A prophet without honor. | |||
Herod said 'John has risen from the dead'. | |||
Jesus withdrew to a solitary place. at evening, fed 5000 | Apostles returned. withdrew to Bethsaida. fed 5000 | fed 5000. Passover was near. | |
walked on water | walks on water | ||
landed at Gennesaret. all the sick were brought to him. | |||
Pharisees came from Jerusalem. eating with unwashed hands does not make one unclean. | teaching in synagogue in Capernaum. Jesus says 'I am the bread of life' & 'Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life'. many disciples leave. | ||
Jesus withdrew to Tyre and Sidon. healed demon possessed daughter of Canaanite woman | |||
went along the Sea of Galilee to mountainside. sick were brought to him. fed 4000 | |||
went to Magadan by boat. Pharisees ask for a sign. no sign given but the sign of Jonah. Jesus left them. | |||
beware the yeast of the Pharisees | |||
Caesarea Philippi. Who do men say I am? Keys of kingdom of heaven promised to Peter (the rock). | praying in private. Who do men say I am? | ||
began to tell disciples that son of man must suffer and die and be raised on 3rd day. | warned them not to tell anyone that the son of man must suffer and die and be raised | ||
transfiguration | transfiguration | ||
Elijah has already come | |||
heals boy that disciples couldnt | |||
came together in Galilee. told them son of man must suffer. | |||
in Capernaum. paid the tax collectors | |||
disciples ask 'who is the greatest'? parable of the lost sheep. forgive brother 77 times. parable of the unmerciful servant. | feast of tabernacles. Taught openly. Woman taken in adultery. I am the light of the world. Blind man washed in pool of Siloam then taken before Pharisees. feast of dedication | ||
Judea beyond Jordon. healed large crowds. Pharisees ask 'is divorse lawful'? little children brought to hum. young man told that 'only God is good'. told to sell all his possessions. parable of workers in vineyard. | Judea beyond Jordon. lazarus. Caiaphas prophecies his death. withdrew to village named Ephraim near the desert. | ||
on his way to Jerusalem. son of man will be betrayed. Zebedees sons ask to sit on his right and left. | |||
leaving Jericho. healed 2 blind men. | |||
Bethany. Mary and Martha. Perfume. | |||
triumphal entry. | triumphal entry | ||
Bethany. home of Simon the leper. woman with alabaster jar of perfume. | |||
Judas goes to chief priests. paid 30 silver coins | Passove was near. Judas goes to chief priests. given money. | ||
1st day of unleavened bread. Last supper | Day of unleavened bread on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. last supper | Just before the Passover feast. Evening meal being served. washes disciples feet. Judas leaves. | |
Mount of Olives. Peter vows he will never disown him | went as usual to Mount of Olives. | Peter vows he will never disown him. Jesus prayed. | |
Gethsemane. Peter and sons of Zebedee sleep. | the 'place'. withdrew a stones throw away. prayed. angel strengthened him. disciples slept | Crossed the Kidron valley to an olive grove. | |
Judas arrives with large armed crowd. kisses him. Jesus arrested. | Judas arrives with a crowd. tries to kiss him. | Judas arrives leading a detachment of soldiers. | |
Taken to Caiaphas and elders. trial. Peter denies him. | House of high priest. Peter denies him. mocked and beaten | Taken to Annas father-in-law of Caiaphas. | |
daybreak. council of elders. are you the Christ. 'I am'. | High priest questions Jesus. Peter denies him. | ||
Taken to Pilate. Judas throws blood money into temple. | Taken to Pilate. | Taken to Palace of Pilate. early morning. (Jews avoided entering so they could eat the Passover) | |
Taken to Herod. mocked. dressed in scarlet rode. | Pilate flogs Jesus. soldiers make crown of thorns. cloth him in scarlet robe. 'hail king of the jews'. | ||
Pilates wife warns him. Pilate releases Barabbas. | Pilate releases Barabbas. | ||
Praetorium. scarlet robe. mocked by soldiers. | the stone pavement (Gabbatha). Pilate sits at judges seat. 'here is your king'. | ||
Simon of Cyrene carries cross to Golgotha. | Simon of Cyrene carries cross to place called 'the skull'. weep for yourselves | carries own cross to place of the skull (Golgotha). | |
offered wine and gall. crucified. cast lots for cloths. sign reads 'this is Jensus. the king of the jews'. 2 robbers. one an right and one on left | crucified with 2 criminals. one on right and one on left. cast lots for cloths. offered wine vinegar. sign read 'this is the king of the jews'. 'you will be with me in paradise'. | crucified with 2 others. one on each side. sign reads 'Jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews'. outer garments divided into 4. undergarment cast lots for. mother. mothers sister. mary widfe of clopas. magdalene. | |
darkness from 6th to 9th hour | darkness from 6th to 9th hour. curtain torn in 2. | ||
my God why have you forsaken me. offered wine vinegar. others said 'lets see if elijah saves him'. cried out and died | 'into your hands I commit my spirit'. died. | 'I am thirsty'. drank wine vinegar. 'It is finished'. It was the day of preparation before special sabbath. broke legs of other 2. pierced side of Jesus. | |
curtain torn in 2. earth shook. many dead raised to life. | |||
Joseph of Arimathea buries him in his tomb. | Joseph from Aramathea (a member of the council) laid body in fresh tomb. | Joseph of Aramathea (secret disciple) with Nicodemas laid body in new tomb in garden at place of crucifixion. | |
next day, tomb sealed. guard posted | prepared spices and perfumes. | ||
after sabbath. first day of week. Mary and Magdalene. | very early on first day of week | early on first day while still dark magdalene. | |
angel descends from heaven and rolls away stone. guards pass out. | the women found the stone rolled away. 2 men in white. women tell but arent believed. | found stone rolled away. told Peter that body was missing. Peter runs to tomb. finds it empty. Peter leaves | |
Women leave but meet Jesus. He tells them to go to Galilee. | Mary stays at tomb. sees Jesus. tells disciples. | ||
same day. 2 going to village of Emmaus meet Jesus. near evening they recognize him.returned to Jerusalem. told that Jesus had appeared te Simon. Jesus himself appears before them | evening of first day Jesus appears among the disciples behind locked door. A week later he appears to all with Thomas present. | ||
Jesus leads them to Bethany. taken up into heaven. | |||
Galilee. disciples see Jesus. | Jesus appears on shore as the disciples fish | ||
Lemmiwinks2 ( talk) 22:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There is an article on Creation according to the Book of Genesis that discusses creation. There is a suggestion now to rename it and give it a Biblical name that may overlap with the New Testamant. I think that will mix differing views, but not being an expert on all of the topics, I think clarifications on that will be helpful here: Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Requested_move_.28as_a_way_to_resolve_every_reasonable_concern.29
Your comments will be appreciated. History2007 ( talk) 14:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Gospel → Gospels — As any look at the subheadings will show, this article is about the gospels (various docuements), not the Gospel— also known as the Good news (such as Paul uses the term in 2 Corinthians 11:4), nor about "gospel" as genre (such as the Epistle article is). Carlaude: Talk 02:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Gospel means good news, and there is only one good news, so it is more precise to refer to the different versions of the gospel as the gospel according to Mark, according to Matthew, according to Luke and according to John.
Please note that the word "Gospel" is Old English for "Good news" thanks. Alan347 ( talk) 17:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Recently came out a female scholar, certain Sara Hermon, that has written a book " The Galileus Gospel" (italian language). She claims to have been a pupil of prof. Morton Smith, maybe by mailing because she lived in Europe and not in USA; anyway, it seems they met sometimes in England many years ago. We don't know if Hermon's book is fiction or reality, but it's amazing how many similarities the novel shows, compared to Smith hypothesis about the missing and secret Mark gospel. (An italian reader of "The Galileus Gospel" by Sara Hermon). —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.39.21.121 (
talk)
12:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The chronology of the gospels is most often set by references in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 where Jesus foretells the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Most historians, being unwilling to admit to the possibility of true foreknowledge, explain this away by simply dating the gospels to a time after these events. An analysis of the gospels themselves gives an entirely different timeline.
Within the book of Acts, written by Luke, the narration changes from past tense to present tense in the form of a narrative beginning in the 27th chapter. Luke begins telling the story as if he were there using “we” or “us” rather than before when Luke declares that Paul did this or Paul said that. The book of Acts stops suddenly with Paul in prison in Rome and no other details are forthcoming from Luke. This indicates that Luke is with Paul in Rome and writes his account, the book of Acts, up to the present time where the narrative stops. At this point, Paul in prison in Rome, can be no later than 50-55AD. The book of Acts also asserts, in the first chapter, that it is written after the Gospel of Luke, as a second edition or second writing to continue the earlier work.
The Gospel of Luke must have been written some time before the book of Acts. This indicates a date in the 40-50AD range. The beginning of the Gospel of Luke mentions the writings of previous works concerning the life and ministry of Jesus thus indicating the existence of works predating the Gospel of Luke. These would presumably be Matthew and Mark ,and perhaps others such as the lost Gospel of Hebrews. Some passages from Luke and Matthew obviously use Mark as reference text (or they have a common reference) indicating Mark was written around 40AD or earlier. This date is only a decade after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Mark is the name of the “son” of the Apostle Peter and many believe Mark was writing as the scribe of his father’s account – perhaps the first of the Gospel accounts of Jesus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joenitwit ( talk • contribs) 22:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Hellbound Hound ( talk) 04:11, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Not sure why one recent harmony gets special mention -- there have been many over the years... AnonMoos ( talk) 08:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
______________________________________________________________________________
Origen said the first [3] Gospel was written by Matthew. [4] This Gospel was composed in Hebrew near Jerusalem for Hebrew Christians and translated into Greek, but the Greek copy was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [5] Matthew's Gospel was called the Gospel according to the Hebrews or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles [6] [7]
Recent studies of the external evidence, shows that there existed among the Nazarene and Ebionite Communities, a gospel commonly referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews. It was written in Aramaic and its authorship was attributed to St. Matthew. Indeed the Fathers of the Church, while the Gospel of the Hebrews was still being circulated and read, referred to it always with respect, often with reverence. The Early Church Fathers (Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus Origen, Jerome etc.) all made reference to this gospel of Matthew. ___________________________________________________
Cheers In ictu oculi ( talk) 07:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
I have tagged this section. It appears to be composed of cut and paste and in different forms has appeared on over a dozen other articles. ......................
This article
duplicates the scope of other articles. |
This article possibly contains
original research. |
I propose moving the duplicate/POV material here to Talk. Also, separate problem; anyone any ideas about this REDIRECT to this article turned into fork article 26 Oct 2010 In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This article
duplicates the scope of other articles. |
This article possibly contains
original research. (March 2011) |
It is generally accepted by most scholars that James was the first leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. [9] [10] [11] [12] [12] [8] [13] [14] [15] As Jews, this group worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem, revered the written Law and the Oral Tradition (called Torah Shebeal Peh). This Oral Tradition interpreted the written Law given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. [16] [17]
It was in this cultural context or Sitz im Leben that the Christian Gospel Tradition had its roots, as Jesus and later Christian 'Rabbis' developed the oral "Gospel" to interpret the written Law given to Moses by God. [18] [19] With the diaspora, (or Tefutzot תפוצות, "scattered") the oral tradition was no longer tenable for Jews or Jewish Christians. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27]
When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem, [18] [19] [28] he preached the Gospel orally to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome. [28] [29] [30] [31] However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. According to Jerome, [32] Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark
Modern scholars agree [33] that Mark composed the first gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account. [34] [35] [36] [37] The Gospel of Mark was widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels. [27] [38] [39]
Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was also part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and said that his gospel was born out of necessity. [40] [41] It was composed in Hebrew and meant for Hebrew Christians. [42] [43]
This Hebrew Gospel was translated into Greek, but the Greek translation was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [50] [51] [52]
Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel according to the Hebrews [53] [54] or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles [55] [56] [57] [58] and it was once believed that it was the original to the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, although this is currently disputed by modern Biblical Scholars.
The Hebrew Gospel was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. [59] [60] These groups included the Nazarenes, Ebionites etc. It was generally believed that they added their own oral traditions or midrash to the "Hebrew Gospel" giving rise to what are now known as the Jewish Gospels. [61] Almost all critics agree that the Jewish Gospels are just modified editions of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77]
In addition to the Gospel of Mark and the Hebrew Gospel (sometimes referred to as
M source) another source held to be used in redacting the Gospels of Matthew and Luke is known as
Q source, which most scholars believe was a written document.
[8] This forms the basis of Streeter's
Four Document Hypothesis. (See also the
synoptic gospels and the
two-gospel hypothesis)
[8] Finally in a recent monograph James R. Edwards has put forward the possibility that the
Gospel of the Hebrews was the first gospel to be written. It is further argued that this gospel was the basis for the canonical gospels.
[78]
I will leave this article entirely up to you. But please bring it up to Wikipedia standards. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 19:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
I added the Book of Mormon to this page. I think it is another gospel and therefore should be on this page. 79.209.44.172 ( talk) 17:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Look at Fullness of the Gospel 79.209.48.123 ( talk) 14:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
There are some inaccuracies in the new content that was added about the Petrine Gospel Tradition:
1. The statement that "Modern scholars agree that Mark composed the first canonical gospel" is not accurate. Most modern scholars agree on Markan Priority - that the Gospel of Mark was the first canonical gospel written. However, most modern scholars also agree that the gospels were composed anonymously. Therefore, it is a misstatement to claim that they agree Mark wrote it.
2. The statement "Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing" is simply a false statement. Nowhere in the primary sources or in the secondary literature is this claim made, let alone it being a consensus of most modern scholars.
Whoever added this material should take the opportunity to amend it to conform to what the reliable secondary sources that are cited actually say. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
RetProf. I thought you were going to not add "Hebrew Gospel" / any more material of this sort. Reverted back to state of article prior to this edit. This is a substantial and in the context of the article title " Gospel" greatly WP:overweight addition/distortion to the article. There may well be a place for material about the pseudepigraphic "Peter" gospels down lower in the article, there may even be a case for a link to the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis, but this is massively overweight and undue for a basic subject " Gospel" (as it was 6 months ago the last time this material was to be added to Wikipedia). What this needs is consensus from well informed experienced editors - I'm thinking St Anselm, History2007, Editor2020, John Carter, IanThomson, Esoglou and so on (apologies to others who've slipped my mind) who usually keep these Religion/Christianity pages in good shape. At the very least the additions need noting on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion. In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
The first accounts Critical scholars generally agree on several early sayings collections and accounts preceding the "canonical" Gospels. The dedicatory preface of the Gospel of Luke testifies already to the existence of several "accounts" of the life of Jesus by the time of its composition.[4] The term Luke uses (διήγησις diēgēsis) is a term used in classical Greek for any historical narrative.[5] The term "Gospel" is not used in the New Testament text for any of the canonical Gospels, though in later centuries a traditional reading of 2 Corinthians 8:18 "the brother whose praise is the Gospel" was to sometimes identify this with Luke, and consequently Gospel of Luke.[6]
The first accounts
See also:Oral tradition and the historical Jesus- Critical scholars generally agree early oral sayings, collections, and accounts preceding the gospels formed an important oral tradition. Proto-gospels [4] [5] are the original works composed directly from the oral tradition [6] [7] and are generally considered to be the earliest gospels to be written. These works are believed to be the sources or basis for later gospels. [8] [9] [10]
- Petrine Gospel tradition
- According to Markus Bockmuehl, Simon Peter represents the center of the gospel tradition. [11] When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem, [12] he preached the Gospel orally [13] to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome.[12] [14] However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. [15] [16] [17]
- According to Jerome, Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark. Modern scholars agree [18] that Mark composed the first canonical gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account.[verification needed][improper synthesis?] [19] [20] [21] The Gospel of Mark was generally accepted as part of the Canon, widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels. [22] [23]
- Hebrew Gospel tradition
- Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and explained that his gospel was born out of necessity as he too left for other nations. [24] [25] It was said to have been composed in Hebrew, for Hebrew Christians and translated into Koine Greek by Jerome. However, some modern scholars dispute this and argue that it was composed in Greek. The Hebrew original was said to have been kept at the Library of Caesarea. [26] [27] [28][29] [30] [31] [32]
- It was the Nazarene Community who had transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [33] Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, [34] or the Gospel according to the Hebrews. The early Church believed it to be one of the first gospels written [35] [36] [37] [38] and it was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. [39] [40] [41] Many critics are agreed, that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel formed the basis of many of the later gospels. Some believe it to be the original form of the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, but this is disputed by many modern Biblical Scholars. [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54]
My advice would be that unless StAnselm comments here and totally supports the Hebrew/Petrine idea, then Ret. Prof would do well to abandon this avenue (as well as the Oral Tradition article) for it will not go far but will consume time and energy. That energy could be productively used elsewhere, e.g. Expounding of the Law which is an official disaster area with no help in sight. I think the oral tradition article needs to become very brief and just mention that it was there, but not a major item. History2007 ( talk) 14:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Gospels as History
Comparing the historical evidence of Julius Caesar to Jesus is ridiculous. In the New Testament gospels it is claimed Jesus was discovered by wise men following a moving star, was born of a virgin, cast out demons that spoke and entered swine, calmed a storm, could see into the future, read minds, walked on water, raised the dead, told Peter where to cast his net in order to catch a fish with money in its belly, [Matt 17:27] and levitated. These examples and many others do not sound like historical evidences. How much of the Jesus Gospel stories is and is not history? Many elements (Supernatural) of these stories are to say in the least suspicious. They sound like ancient miracle and mythology stories. The ancient world was very different. It can only be imagined. In the ancient world predestination, Gods, divine heroes, demons, raised dead, miracles and magic were real. They were the commonly held beliefs of the majority of people. There was little curious inquiry and skepticism and little doubt about one's own experiences. Believing one can emotionally "feel the truth" is difficult to doubt. Even today. Even if Jesus was a living person it is impossible to separate the words he spoke from those the early church placed in his mouth. It is guess work. The historical Jesus is lost until time travel.
Kazuba ( talk) User kazuba Kazuba ( talk)
The following paragraph;
“In Islam the Injil (Arabic: إنجيل ʾInǧīl) is the Arabic name for the original gospel of Jesus, and one of the four Islamic holy books the Qur'an records as revealed by God. Islam holds that over time it became corrupt and God sent the prophet Muhammad to reveal the last book, according to the Islamic faith.[3]”
...which has been put in repeatedly after being deleted, is appropriate on pages relating to Islam, and not relevant to a page whose main existence stems from Christianity. The context of the paragraph appears to have the intent to invalidate the Gospel. The relevancy of corrupted writings belongs on pages relating to Islam, since the view of corrupted Scriptures stems from Muslims not believing the Gospel.
This is not merely a faith preference, but factual; faith in Muhammad, the Qur'an, and the view of corrupted scriptures are uniquely Islamic in perspective, and their presence has no more place on a page about the Gospel, than historical facts stemming from Christianity belong on pages about Islam or the Qur’an with the intent to discredit Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GadsDad ( talk • contribs) 23:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear sirs, I have noticed the conversation about the Gospel. The Gospel is a Biblical term that solely used for the Christian faith. I believe when we mix the responses, people reading will be confused as to the perspective from which it is coming. If you will not stop Muslims from placing their thoughts on a subject they really don't know about, why not allow the Gospel message be from the persepct of the Christian and the Gospel message from the perspective of the Muslim. This will help to avoid confusing the person seeking clarity about the subject. If they want to know how the Muslim feels, that is fine. If they want to know what a Christian believes that will work as well. This would make the subject more clearly understood. Thanks for your consideration. Danielrsss ( talk) 15:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The Decretum Gelasianum is an important piece of historical changes in what is perceived as "the Gospel." In which area should it be added? Twillisjr ( talk) 17:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
The section here is currently more bulky than the breakout article Oral gospel traditions. If anyone thinks the content could be moved across, then go for it. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
In scholarship, a gospel is always a written document - it's just a matter of definition. Q was neither oral nor a gospel, and Mark is the only gospel thought to have had oral sources (M and L were both written). The article needs a good source to define the subject - any major bible encyclopedia would do. PiCo ( talk) 03:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
(<div>-tag inserted by User:Rursus — this little essay is written by User:Ret.Prof)
Over the past ten years the thinking of Biblical scholars has undergone a radical transformation. There is now a growing number of historians that believe:
Bart Ehrman is probably the most formidable Biblical historian of our time. Not only is he required reading at most seminaries, but he has managed to hit New York Times best sellers list. In his most recent work Did Jesus Exist?, HarperCollins, 2012. pp 83 - 93 and 98-101 Bart D. Ehrman, explains why the oral traditions about Jesus are an important part of the history of Christianity. Some of these oral traditions "were originally spoken in Aramaic, the language of Palestine. These traditions date at least to the early years of the Christian movement, before it expanded into the Greekspeaking lands elsewhere in the Mediterranean." p 87 Ehrman shows that each of the Gospel texts is based on "oral traditions that had been in circulation for years among communities of Christians in different parts of the world, all of them attesting to the existence of Jesus. And some of these traditions must have originated in Aramaic-speaking communities of Palestine, probably in the 30s CE, within several years at least of the traditional date of the death of Jesus." pp 92-93
Then Ehrman explains why Papias, who was born in 63 CE and was a Bishop in the Early Church is so very important in understanding the Oral Gospel Traditions. Papias had written a flve-volume on the Oral Tradition and more importantly, he had direct access to "the sayings of Jesus. He was personally acquainted with people who had known either the apostles themselves or their companions." p 98 Also it was Matthew who reduced the oral tradition to writing as Papias reports, “And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted [or translated] them to the best of his ability.” p 100
Finally although Ehrman takes the position that Matthew reduced the Oral Tradition to a Hebrew dialect (probably Aramaic) he does not believe that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Matthew in our Bible. Because there is "a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to" what we call Matthew. Ehrman adds, in fact, what Papias "says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels." The Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew is distinct from the Gospel of Matthew that eventually came to be included in Scripture. p 101 Papias then, is "testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves." P 101
Maurice Casey is one of Britain's most noted historians. He is Emeritus Professor at the University of Nottingham, having served there as Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the Department of Theology. His most recent work Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010. p 9-12 supports the aforementioned scholarship. There can be little doubt that the language of oral transmission of the Gospel was Aramaic for "Jesus taught in Aramaic, which was also the language spoken by his family and by all his followers" p 108 during the formative tears of Christianity.
Furthermore, he too believes that Matthew collected the oral traditions of Jesus and reduced them to writing. "Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down... There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. p 86 Therefore "it is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language." 88 Finally, he agrees with Ehrman that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel has no connection with our Gospel of Matthew. "This tradition is complete nonsense, as most scholars have recognized." p 87
Unlike Casey and Ehrman, James Edwards is a Christian scholar. He is a Bruner-Welch Professor of Theology, an Ordained Presbyterian minister, a contributing editor of Christianity Today, and member of the Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton. In his most recent work the The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 2 he confirms that the Oral Gospel traditions were collected by Matthew and that Matthew wrote them down in the Hebrew Gospel. p3
Then Edwards evaluates the testimony of Papias using the criteria of Casey and Ehrman. Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link
So far this 21st C. scholarship has not been well received at Wikipedia. It has been argued the the material from Bart Ehrman, Maurice Casey, and James Edwards is 'original research' and has no place at Wikipedia. The result is that we are now in a state of gridlock. We have been unable to get past the Oral gospel traditions stub. What is needed are editors who are willing to review the reliable sources and expand the stub into an article written from a NPOV. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
To me, the examples from Classical culture in the introduction are misleading. In ancient Greek, they may be "good news" using the some variation of eu + angelion, "good message"—but that would belong in the etymology section to explain the relation between euvangelion and the OE "gospel". And the examples would need to have citations to show their relevance (presumably, ancient sources use a form of euvangelion in describing these announcements). It seems a rather extreme case of undue weight in the intro. Cynwolfe ( talk) 22:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/ c 19:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
– The topic of this page is a genre of literature (narratives of Jesus' life). That topic is distinct though related to the gospel as the concept of a central message of Christianity, something like Jesus died and is risen, or repent and believe in Christ, etc. The distinction is also made clear by the common Christian belief that the gospel was proclaimed to Adam and Eve and throughout the Old Testament through typology and prophesy. Jesus also uses the term many times. The genre of literature is clearly not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "gospel", as demonstrated by the popularity of phrases like "believe the gospel" and "preach the gospel", as well as the derived nature of the meaning of the term as a genre (books are called gospels because they testify to the gospel). I had been favoring Gospel (genre), but that is easily confused with the music genre. JFH ( talk) 03:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Seeking comment from other editors re: recent changes to the lead without discussion. The current lead begins with "A gospel is an account describing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth," and there is is an alternate view that it should read "A gospel is a written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted as true by that group." While not referenced, the content in the body of the article seems to fit with the current sentence. Can we please have views of editors with a view to reaching consensus, and perhaps an appropriate source? Best wishes Flat Out let's discuss it 10:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Gospel's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Hertzog1":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 14:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Under the Dating section in the Wikipedia page, the following statement is made about the Gospel of John: "The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition." -- well, there is no such majority view, and there is likewise no source given for this claim. It's really just a mere assertion that seems to have gotten into this page without any citations added to it. Thus, unless objection is made, I will edit the Wikipedia page to omit this unsubstantiated phrase. Korvex ( talk) 00:38, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
PiCo, the matter is not the reliability of the sentence, but its verifiability. It currently has no source. Dimadick ( talk) 13:04, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
"Biblical scholars generally agree that early oral traditions about Jesus, along with collections of accounts, preceded the canonical gospels."
A "citation needed" tag has been sitting in this sentence for more than three years now, but to me at least, it is not quite clear what exactly the citation is being requested for:
Are you looking for secondary literature supporting the claim that "early oral traditions about Jesus ... preceded the canonical gospels"? (That should be an easy one.)
Strictly speaking, the tag asks for sources supporting the claim that "Biblical scholars generally agree..." (on this point). Now obviously this can't be supported by simply naming a bunch of Biblical scholars (which would be original research anyway), instead, it would require some sort of meta level source analyzing what the majority of Biblical scholars agree upon. I can't really imagine where one would find that kind of source.
I don't know who put this tag in here, but I am sure it would help to know what is being asked for. -- 93.212.233.204 ( talk) 21:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I have added/fixed some sourcing issues. However I could not immediately resolve the following, so any help is welcome:
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
... has some interesting ideas about Biblical history ... interesting in a way that I think is the fringe of the fringe. There is thus a vote for deletion here. Those of you who are knowledgable and care about Biblical history, please check it out. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:02, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
Good news (Christianity) is forked from here and should be merged back after being corrected for WP:OR. Objections? Agreement? -- Secisek ( talk) 10:15, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
Please don't merge. I found the article in question by typing "gospel" into the search box. It would never have occurred to me to type "good news." Ctmctm ( talk) 22:25, 12 April 2009 (UTC)
I agree not to merge. I find this article complete and succinct in itself. I think it becomes diffused with the Good news (Christianity) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Itchjones ( talk • contribs) 15:14, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
Should this article address the use of the term "gospel" as a generic term? Does "gospel" generically mean "opinion", "dogma", "enlightenment", "doctrine" etc.? I suggest this article should include an exploration of the generic concept "gospel" as well as its roots in Christianity. Mrrealtime ( talk) 13:45, 3 June 2009 (UTC)
Is there anybody out there interested in the idea of making a wikipedia article comparing the 4 gospels? Here is the rough draft:
Mathew (and Mark) | Luke 1 | Luke 2 | John |
---|---|---|---|
In the beginning was the Word | |||
Zechariah sees Gabriel and becomes mute. Elizabeth becomes pregnant. hides 5 months | |||
angel tells Joseph to marry Mary | Mary sees Gabriel. Mary goes to Zechariahs house. stays 3 months | ||
John born. Zechariah speaks. Jesus born in Bethlehem. Magi go to Jerusalem then Bethlehem. | Jesus born in Bethlehem. laid in manger. shepherds come to see him. | ||
on the 8th day they go to Jerusalem. Simeon and Anna. Go to Egypt. Go to Nazareth. | |||
when Jesus was 12 he is accidently left behind in Jerusalem. | |||
John the Baptist in the wilderness | in 15th year of Tiberius, John preaches in country around Jordon. | Bethany beyond Jordon. John baptises. | |
Baptism of Jesus | baptism of Jesus | Baptism of Jesus | |
Andrew, Peter, Philip follow Jesus. Fig tree. Wedding in Cana. Went to Capernaum for a few days. | |||
fasted 40 days in desert. (as Moses was 40 years in desert before Exodus, the first Passover) | fasted 40 days in desert | ||
temptation | temptation | went to Jerusalem for Passover. Nicodemus. | |
John in prison | (John imprisoned for rebuking Herod over Herodias) | argument between Johns disciples and a Certain Jew. the Phairisees heard that Jesus baptised more than John. | |
Jesus goes to Capernaum | Jesus passes through Samaria. Samaritan woman. (four months to harvest?) | ||
calls Simon, Andrew, James, John from their boats | |||
preaching & healing in Galilee | |||
Beautitudes (as one having authority) | Beautitudes. then went to Capernaum | ||
leper healed | |||
paralyzed servant of Centurion in Capernaum healed by a word | servant of Centurion in Capernaum healed by word | Cana. Son of royal official sick in Capernaum. | |
(mark only) demon possessed man in synagogue. | demon possessed man in synagogue | ||
Peters house. mothers fever. | Peters house. mothers fever | ||
at evening many demon possessed healed with a word | at evening demon possessed healed by laying on hands | ||
at daybreak, went to solitary places | |||
John asks 'are you the one coming'? dinner in Pharisees house. sinful woman. throughout towns and villages with 12. | |||
Let the dead bury the dead. Crosses the lake. rebuked storm on lake | orders peter to put out into deep water and let his net down. great catch of fish. | rebukes the storm | |
2 demon possessed men | sailed to Gerasenes. healed man possessed by legion. | ||
came to 'his town'. paralytic on mat | heals paralytic on mat | Jerusalem. Feast of the Jews. invalid on mat at pool of bethesda | |
called Levi | called levi at his booth | ||
dinner at Levi's house. Sinners came and ate with him. Parisees ask why do you eat with sinners? Johns disciples ask why do you not fast? ruler asked him to raise his dead daughter. | great banquet at levis house. Pharisees ask 'why do you eat with sinners' and 'why do you not fast'? | Jairus, ruler of synagogue, asks him to heal his dying daughter. | |
woman bleeding for 12 years | woman bleeding for 12 years | ||
raises dead girl | raises dead girl | ||
indoors. heals 2 blind men. heals demon possessed mute. crowd amazed. pharisees said he drives out demons by beelzebub. | |||
went throughaut towns and villages. harvest is plentiful. | |||
gave the 12 authority to heal. sent them out. | gave the 12 authority to heal. sent them out. | ||
went on to Galilee | |||
John asks 'are you the one coming'? | |||
woe to you Korazin, Bethsaida, Capernaum. | |||
grainfields on the sabbath | (grainfields on the sabbath) | ||
shriveled hand in synagogue | |||
Pharisees plot to kill Jesus. Jensus withdrew. went incognito. | |||
healed demon possessed blind mute. Pharisees say 'by beelzebub'. kingdom divided. blasphemy against the spirit. | |||
no sign except the sign of Jonah | |||
mother and brothers stood outside | |||
that same day, by the lake. the parable of the sower, of the weeds, of the mustard seed | |||
into house. exp0ained the parables. parable of hidden treasure, of the net. | |||
came to his hometown. A prophet without honor. | |||
Herod said 'John has risen from the dead'. | |||
Jesus withdrew to a solitary place. at evening, fed 5000 | Apostles returned. withdrew to Bethsaida. fed 5000 | fed 5000. Passover was near. | |
walked on water | walks on water | ||
landed at Gennesaret. all the sick were brought to him. | |||
Pharisees came from Jerusalem. eating with unwashed hands does not make one unclean. | teaching in synagogue in Capernaum. Jesus says 'I am the bread of life' & 'Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life'. many disciples leave. | ||
Jesus withdrew to Tyre and Sidon. healed demon possessed daughter of Canaanite woman | |||
went along the Sea of Galilee to mountainside. sick were brought to him. fed 4000 | |||
went to Magadan by boat. Pharisees ask for a sign. no sign given but the sign of Jonah. Jesus left them. | |||
beware the yeast of the Pharisees | |||
Caesarea Philippi. Who do men say I am? Keys of kingdom of heaven promised to Peter (the rock). | praying in private. Who do men say I am? | ||
began to tell disciples that son of man must suffer and die and be raised on 3rd day. | warned them not to tell anyone that the son of man must suffer and die and be raised | ||
transfiguration | transfiguration | ||
Elijah has already come | |||
heals boy that disciples couldnt | |||
came together in Galilee. told them son of man must suffer. | |||
in Capernaum. paid the tax collectors | |||
disciples ask 'who is the greatest'? parable of the lost sheep. forgive brother 77 times. parable of the unmerciful servant. | feast of tabernacles. Taught openly. Woman taken in adultery. I am the light of the world. Blind man washed in pool of Siloam then taken before Pharisees. feast of dedication | ||
Judea beyond Jordon. healed large crowds. Pharisees ask 'is divorse lawful'? little children brought to hum. young man told that 'only God is good'. told to sell all his possessions. parable of workers in vineyard. | Judea beyond Jordon. lazarus. Caiaphas prophecies his death. withdrew to village named Ephraim near the desert. | ||
on his way to Jerusalem. son of man will be betrayed. Zebedees sons ask to sit on his right and left. | |||
leaving Jericho. healed 2 blind men. | |||
Bethany. Mary and Martha. Perfume. | |||
triumphal entry. | triumphal entry | ||
Bethany. home of Simon the leper. woman with alabaster jar of perfume. | |||
Judas goes to chief priests. paid 30 silver coins | Passove was near. Judas goes to chief priests. given money. | ||
1st day of unleavened bread. Last supper | Day of unleavened bread on which the passover lamb had to be sacrificed. last supper | Just before the Passover feast. Evening meal being served. washes disciples feet. Judas leaves. | |
Mount of Olives. Peter vows he will never disown him | went as usual to Mount of Olives. | Peter vows he will never disown him. Jesus prayed. | |
Gethsemane. Peter and sons of Zebedee sleep. | the 'place'. withdrew a stones throw away. prayed. angel strengthened him. disciples slept | Crossed the Kidron valley to an olive grove. | |
Judas arrives with large armed crowd. kisses him. Jesus arrested. | Judas arrives with a crowd. tries to kiss him. | Judas arrives leading a detachment of soldiers. | |
Taken to Caiaphas and elders. trial. Peter denies him. | House of high priest. Peter denies him. mocked and beaten | Taken to Annas father-in-law of Caiaphas. | |
daybreak. council of elders. are you the Christ. 'I am'. | High priest questions Jesus. Peter denies him. | ||
Taken to Pilate. Judas throws blood money into temple. | Taken to Pilate. | Taken to Palace of Pilate. early morning. (Jews avoided entering so they could eat the Passover) | |
Taken to Herod. mocked. dressed in scarlet rode. | Pilate flogs Jesus. soldiers make crown of thorns. cloth him in scarlet robe. 'hail king of the jews'. | ||
Pilates wife warns him. Pilate releases Barabbas. | Pilate releases Barabbas. | ||
Praetorium. scarlet robe. mocked by soldiers. | the stone pavement (Gabbatha). Pilate sits at judges seat. 'here is your king'. | ||
Simon of Cyrene carries cross to Golgotha. | Simon of Cyrene carries cross to place called 'the skull'. weep for yourselves | carries own cross to place of the skull (Golgotha). | |
offered wine and gall. crucified. cast lots for cloths. sign reads 'this is Jensus. the king of the jews'. 2 robbers. one an right and one on left | crucified with 2 criminals. one on right and one on left. cast lots for cloths. offered wine vinegar. sign read 'this is the king of the jews'. 'you will be with me in paradise'. | crucified with 2 others. one on each side. sign reads 'Jesus of nazareth, the king of the jews'. outer garments divided into 4. undergarment cast lots for. mother. mothers sister. mary widfe of clopas. magdalene. | |
darkness from 6th to 9th hour | darkness from 6th to 9th hour. curtain torn in 2. | ||
my God why have you forsaken me. offered wine vinegar. others said 'lets see if elijah saves him'. cried out and died | 'into your hands I commit my spirit'. died. | 'I am thirsty'. drank wine vinegar. 'It is finished'. It was the day of preparation before special sabbath. broke legs of other 2. pierced side of Jesus. | |
curtain torn in 2. earth shook. many dead raised to life. | |||
Joseph of Arimathea buries him in his tomb. | Joseph from Aramathea (a member of the council) laid body in fresh tomb. | Joseph of Aramathea (secret disciple) with Nicodemas laid body in new tomb in garden at place of crucifixion. | |
next day, tomb sealed. guard posted | prepared spices and perfumes. | ||
after sabbath. first day of week. Mary and Magdalene. | very early on first day of week | early on first day while still dark magdalene. | |
angel descends from heaven and rolls away stone. guards pass out. | the women found the stone rolled away. 2 men in white. women tell but arent believed. | found stone rolled away. told Peter that body was missing. Peter runs to tomb. finds it empty. Peter leaves | |
Women leave but meet Jesus. He tells them to go to Galilee. | Mary stays at tomb. sees Jesus. tells disciples. | ||
same day. 2 going to village of Emmaus meet Jesus. near evening they recognize him.returned to Jerusalem. told that Jesus had appeared te Simon. Jesus himself appears before them | evening of first day Jesus appears among the disciples behind locked door. A week later he appears to all with Thomas present. | ||
Jesus leads them to Bethany. taken up into heaven. | |||
Galilee. disciples see Jesus. | Jesus appears on shore as the disciples fish | ||
Lemmiwinks2 ( talk) 22:02, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
There is an article on Creation according to the Book of Genesis that discusses creation. There is a suggestion now to rename it and give it a Biblical name that may overlap with the New Testamant. I think that will mix differing views, but not being an expert on all of the topics, I think clarifications on that will be helpful here: Talk:Creation_according_to_Genesis#Requested_move_.28as_a_way_to_resolve_every_reasonable_concern.29
Your comments will be appreciated. History2007 ( talk) 14:47, 27 January 2010 (UTC)
No consensus to move. Vegaswikian ( talk) 19:25, 1 April 2010 (UTC)
Gospel → Gospels — As any look at the subheadings will show, this article is about the gospels (various docuements), not the Gospel— also known as the Good news (such as Paul uses the term in 2 Corinthians 11:4), nor about "gospel" as genre (such as the Epistle article is). Carlaude: Talk 02:18, 25 March 2010 (UTC)
Gospel means good news, and there is only one good news, so it is more precise to refer to the different versions of the gospel as the gospel according to Mark, according to Matthew, according to Luke and according to John.
Please note that the word "Gospel" is Old English for "Good news" thanks. Alan347 ( talk) 17:26, 26 June 2010 (UTC)
Recently came out a female scholar, certain Sara Hermon, that has written a book " The Galileus Gospel" (italian language). She claims to have been a pupil of prof. Morton Smith, maybe by mailing because she lived in Europe and not in USA; anyway, it seems they met sometimes in England many years ago. We don't know if Hermon's book is fiction or reality, but it's amazing how many similarities the novel shows, compared to Smith hypothesis about the missing and secret Mark gospel. (An italian reader of "The Galileus Gospel" by Sara Hermon). —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
93.39.21.121 (
talk)
12:39, 27 November 2010 (UTC)
The chronology of the gospels is most often set by references in Matthew 24 and Luke 21 where Jesus foretells the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Most historians, being unwilling to admit to the possibility of true foreknowledge, explain this away by simply dating the gospels to a time after these events. An analysis of the gospels themselves gives an entirely different timeline.
Within the book of Acts, written by Luke, the narration changes from past tense to present tense in the form of a narrative beginning in the 27th chapter. Luke begins telling the story as if he were there using “we” or “us” rather than before when Luke declares that Paul did this or Paul said that. The book of Acts stops suddenly with Paul in prison in Rome and no other details are forthcoming from Luke. This indicates that Luke is with Paul in Rome and writes his account, the book of Acts, up to the present time where the narrative stops. At this point, Paul in prison in Rome, can be no later than 50-55AD. The book of Acts also asserts, in the first chapter, that it is written after the Gospel of Luke, as a second edition or second writing to continue the earlier work.
The Gospel of Luke must have been written some time before the book of Acts. This indicates a date in the 40-50AD range. The beginning of the Gospel of Luke mentions the writings of previous works concerning the life and ministry of Jesus thus indicating the existence of works predating the Gospel of Luke. These would presumably be Matthew and Mark ,and perhaps others such as the lost Gospel of Hebrews. Some passages from Luke and Matthew obviously use Mark as reference text (or they have a common reference) indicating Mark was written around 40AD or earlier. This date is only a decade after the death and resurrection of Jesus. Mark is the name of the “son” of the Apostle Peter and many believe Mark was writing as the scribe of his father’s account – perhaps the first of the Gospel accounts of Jesus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Joenitwit ( talk • contribs) 22:07, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. Hellbound Hound ( talk) 04:11, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
Not sure why one recent harmony gets special mention -- there have been many over the years... AnonMoos ( talk) 08:05, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
______________________________________________________________________________
Origen said the first [3] Gospel was written by Matthew. [4] This Gospel was composed in Hebrew near Jerusalem for Hebrew Christians and translated into Greek, but the Greek copy was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [5] Matthew's Gospel was called the Gospel according to the Hebrews or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles [6] [7]
Recent studies of the external evidence, shows that there existed among the Nazarene and Ebionite Communities, a gospel commonly referred to as the Gospel of the Hebrews. It was written in Aramaic and its authorship was attributed to St. Matthew. Indeed the Fathers of the Church, while the Gospel of the Hebrews was still being circulated and read, referred to it always with respect, often with reverence. The Early Church Fathers (Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, Irenaeus Origen, Jerome etc.) all made reference to this gospel of Matthew. ___________________________________________________
Cheers In ictu oculi ( talk) 07:22, 20 March 2011 (UTC)
I have tagged this section. It appears to be composed of cut and paste and in different forms has appeared on over a dozen other articles. ......................
This article
duplicates the scope of other articles. |
This article possibly contains
original research. |
I propose moving the duplicate/POV material here to Talk. Also, separate problem; anyone any ideas about this REDIRECT to this article turned into fork article 26 Oct 2010 In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:47, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
This article
duplicates the scope of other articles. |
This article possibly contains
original research. (March 2011) |
It is generally accepted by most scholars that James was the first leader of the Jewish Christians in Jerusalem. [9] [10] [11] [12] [12] [8] [13] [14] [15] As Jews, this group worshiped at the Temple in Jerusalem, revered the written Law and the Oral Tradition (called Torah Shebeal Peh). This Oral Tradition interpreted the written Law given by God to Moses on Mount Sinai. [16] [17]
It was in this cultural context or Sitz im Leben that the Christian Gospel Tradition had its roots, as Jesus and later Christian 'Rabbis' developed the oral "Gospel" to interpret the written Law given to Moses by God. [18] [19] With the diaspora, (or Tefutzot תפוצות, "scattered") the oral tradition was no longer tenable for Jews or Jewish Christians. [20] [21] [22] [23] [24] [25] [26] [27]
When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem, [18] [19] [28] he preached the Gospel orally to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome. [28] [29] [30] [31] However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. According to Jerome, [32] Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark
Modern scholars agree [33] that Mark composed the first gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account. [34] [35] [36] [37] The Gospel of Mark was widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels. [27] [38] [39]
Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was also part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and said that his gospel was born out of necessity. [40] [41] It was composed in Hebrew and meant for Hebrew Christians. [42] [43]
This Hebrew Gospel was translated into Greek, but the Greek translation was lost. The Hebrew original was kept at the Library of Caesarea. The Nazarene Community transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [50] [51] [52]
Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, the Gospel according to the Hebrews [53] [54] or sometimes the Gospel of the Apostles [55] [56] [57] [58] and it was once believed that it was the original to the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, although this is currently disputed by modern Biblical Scholars.
The Hebrew Gospel was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. [59] [60] These groups included the Nazarenes, Ebionites etc. It was generally believed that they added their own oral traditions or midrash to the "Hebrew Gospel" giving rise to what are now known as the Jewish Gospels. [61] Almost all critics agree that the Jewish Gospels are just modified editions of Matthew's Hebrew Gospel. [62] [63] [64] [65] [66] [67] [68] [69] [70] [71] [72] [73] [74] [75] [76] [77]
In addition to the Gospel of Mark and the Hebrew Gospel (sometimes referred to as
M source) another source held to be used in redacting the Gospels of Matthew and Luke is known as
Q source, which most scholars believe was a written document.
[8] This forms the basis of Streeter's
Four Document Hypothesis. (See also the
synoptic gospels and the
two-gospel hypothesis)
[8] Finally in a recent monograph James R. Edwards has put forward the possibility that the
Gospel of the Hebrews was the first gospel to be written. It is further argued that this gospel was the basis for the canonical gospels.
[78]
I will leave this article entirely up to you. But please bring it up to Wikipedia standards. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 19:47, 4 April 2011 (UTC)
I added the Book of Mormon to this page. I think it is another gospel and therefore should be on this page. 79.209.44.172 ( talk) 17:54, 4 May 2011 (UTC)
Look at Fullness of the Gospel 79.209.48.123 ( talk) 14:51, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
There are some inaccuracies in the new content that was added about the Petrine Gospel Tradition:
1. The statement that "Modern scholars agree that Mark composed the first canonical gospel" is not accurate. Most modern scholars agree on Markan Priority - that the Gospel of Mark was the first canonical gospel written. However, most modern scholars also agree that the gospels were composed anonymously. Therefore, it is a misstatement to claim that they agree Mark wrote it.
2. The statement "Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing" is simply a false statement. Nowhere in the primary sources or in the secondary literature is this claim made, let alone it being a consensus of most modern scholars.
Whoever added this material should take the opportunity to amend it to conform to what the reliable secondary sources that are cited actually say. Ignocrates ( talk) 16:27, 26 January 2012 (UTC)
RetProf. I thought you were going to not add "Hebrew Gospel" / any more material of this sort. Reverted back to state of article prior to this edit. This is a substantial and in the context of the article title " Gospel" greatly WP:overweight addition/distortion to the article. There may well be a place for material about the pseudepigraphic "Peter" gospels down lower in the article, there may even be a case for a link to the Hebrew Gospel hypothesis, but this is massively overweight and undue for a basic subject " Gospel" (as it was 6 months ago the last time this material was to be added to Wikipedia). What this needs is consensus from well informed experienced editors - I'm thinking St Anselm, History2007, Editor2020, John Carter, IanThomson, Esoglou and so on (apologies to others who've slipped my mind) who usually keep these Religion/Christianity pages in good shape. At the very least the additions need noting on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity and Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Religion. In ictu oculi ( talk) 01:35, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
The first accounts Critical scholars generally agree on several early sayings collections and accounts preceding the "canonical" Gospels. The dedicatory preface of the Gospel of Luke testifies already to the existence of several "accounts" of the life of Jesus by the time of its composition.[4] The term Luke uses (διήγησις diēgēsis) is a term used in classical Greek for any historical narrative.[5] The term "Gospel" is not used in the New Testament text for any of the canonical Gospels, though in later centuries a traditional reading of 2 Corinthians 8:18 "the brother whose praise is the Gospel" was to sometimes identify this with Luke, and consequently Gospel of Luke.[6]
The first accounts
See also:Oral tradition and the historical Jesus- Critical scholars generally agree early oral sayings, collections, and accounts preceding the gospels formed an important oral tradition. Proto-gospels [4] [5] are the original works composed directly from the oral tradition [6] [7] and are generally considered to be the earliest gospels to be written. These works are believed to be the sources or basis for later gospels. [8] [9] [10]
- Petrine Gospel tradition
- According to Markus Bockmuehl, Simon Peter represents the center of the gospel tradition. [11] When Peter (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) left Jerusalem, [12] he preached the Gospel orally [13] to the Diaspora (scattered communities of believers, Jews and Hebrew Christians) in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia Minor and Bithynia and eventually went to Rome.[12] [14] However it was Peter's scribe Mark who first reduced the Oral Tradition of Peter to written form. [15] [16] [17]
- According to Jerome, Mark set down these teachings of Peter in what is now called the Gospel of Mark. Modern scholars agree [18] that Mark composed the first canonical gospel, in Koine Greek. Peter is said to have reviewed this work and given it his blessing, elevating the Gospel of Mark to the level of an eyewitness account.[verification needed][improper synthesis?] [19] [20] [21] The Gospel of Mark was generally accepted as part of the Canon, widely circulated and scholars agree that it was a primary source used in the writing of later gospels. [22] [23]
- Hebrew Gospel tradition
- Matthew (one of the Twelve disciples and a Jew) was part of the Diaspora. The Church Fathers recognized this and explained that his gospel was born out of necessity as he too left for other nations. [24] [25] It was said to have been composed in Hebrew, for Hebrew Christians and translated into Koine Greek by Jerome. However, some modern scholars dispute this and argue that it was composed in Greek. The Hebrew original was said to have been kept at the Library of Caesarea. [26] [27] [28][29] [30] [31] [32]
- It was the Nazarene Community who had transcribed a copy for Jerome which he used in his work. [33] Matthew's Hebrew Gospel was often called the Authentic Gospel of Matthew, [34] or the Gospel according to the Hebrews. The early Church believed it to be one of the first gospels written [35] [36] [37] [38] and it was widely circulated among early Jewish Christians. [39] [40] [41] Many critics are agreed, that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel formed the basis of many of the later gospels. Some believe it to be the original form of the Greek Matthew found in the Bible, but this is disputed by many modern Biblical Scholars. [42] [43] [44] [45] [46] [47] [48] [49] [50] [51] [52] [53] [54]
My advice would be that unless StAnselm comments here and totally supports the Hebrew/Petrine idea, then Ret. Prof would do well to abandon this avenue (as well as the Oral Tradition article) for it will not go far but will consume time and energy. That energy could be productively used elsewhere, e.g. Expounding of the Law which is an official disaster area with no help in sight. I think the oral tradition article needs to become very brief and just mention that it was there, but not a major item. History2007 ( talk) 14:48, 29 January 2012 (UTC)
Gospels as History
Comparing the historical evidence of Julius Caesar to Jesus is ridiculous. In the New Testament gospels it is claimed Jesus was discovered by wise men following a moving star, was born of a virgin, cast out demons that spoke and entered swine, calmed a storm, could see into the future, read minds, walked on water, raised the dead, told Peter where to cast his net in order to catch a fish with money in its belly, [Matt 17:27] and levitated. These examples and many others do not sound like historical evidences. How much of the Jesus Gospel stories is and is not history? Many elements (Supernatural) of these stories are to say in the least suspicious. They sound like ancient miracle and mythology stories. The ancient world was very different. It can only be imagined. In the ancient world predestination, Gods, divine heroes, demons, raised dead, miracles and magic were real. They were the commonly held beliefs of the majority of people. There was little curious inquiry and skepticism and little doubt about one's own experiences. Believing one can emotionally "feel the truth" is difficult to doubt. Even today. Even if Jesus was a living person it is impossible to separate the words he spoke from those the early church placed in his mouth. It is guess work. The historical Jesus is lost until time travel.
Kazuba ( talk) User kazuba Kazuba ( talk)
The following paragraph;
“In Islam the Injil (Arabic: إنجيل ʾInǧīl) is the Arabic name for the original gospel of Jesus, and one of the four Islamic holy books the Qur'an records as revealed by God. Islam holds that over time it became corrupt and God sent the prophet Muhammad to reveal the last book, according to the Islamic faith.[3]”
...which has been put in repeatedly after being deleted, is appropriate on pages relating to Islam, and not relevant to a page whose main existence stems from Christianity. The context of the paragraph appears to have the intent to invalidate the Gospel. The relevancy of corrupted writings belongs on pages relating to Islam, since the view of corrupted Scriptures stems from Muslims not believing the Gospel.
This is not merely a faith preference, but factual; faith in Muhammad, the Qur'an, and the view of corrupted scriptures are uniquely Islamic in perspective, and their presence has no more place on a page about the Gospel, than historical facts stemming from Christianity belong on pages about Islam or the Qur’an with the intent to discredit Islam. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GadsDad ( talk • contribs) 23:43, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Dear sirs, I have noticed the conversation about the Gospel. The Gospel is a Biblical term that solely used for the Christian faith. I believe when we mix the responses, people reading will be confused as to the perspective from which it is coming. If you will not stop Muslims from placing their thoughts on a subject they really don't know about, why not allow the Gospel message be from the persepct of the Christian and the Gospel message from the perspective of the Muslim. This will help to avoid confusing the person seeking clarity about the subject. If they want to know how the Muslim feels, that is fine. If they want to know what a Christian believes that will work as well. This would make the subject more clearly understood. Thanks for your consideration. Danielrsss ( talk) 15:08, 17 May 2012 (UTC)
The Decretum Gelasianum is an important piece of historical changes in what is perceived as "the Gospel." In which area should it be added? Twillisjr ( talk) 17:53, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
The section here is currently more bulky than the breakout article Oral gospel traditions. If anyone thinks the content could be moved across, then go for it. In ictu oculi ( talk) 09:55, 18 January 2013 (UTC)
In scholarship, a gospel is always a written document - it's just a matter of definition. Q was neither oral nor a gospel, and Mark is the only gospel thought to have had oral sources (M and L were both written). The article needs a good source to define the subject - any major bible encyclopedia would do. PiCo ( talk) 03:26, 24 January 2013 (UTC)
(<div>-tag inserted by User:Rursus — this little essay is written by User:Ret.Prof)
Over the past ten years the thinking of Biblical scholars has undergone a radical transformation. There is now a growing number of historians that believe:
Bart Ehrman is probably the most formidable Biblical historian of our time. Not only is he required reading at most seminaries, but he has managed to hit New York Times best sellers list. In his most recent work Did Jesus Exist?, HarperCollins, 2012. pp 83 - 93 and 98-101 Bart D. Ehrman, explains why the oral traditions about Jesus are an important part of the history of Christianity. Some of these oral traditions "were originally spoken in Aramaic, the language of Palestine. These traditions date at least to the early years of the Christian movement, before it expanded into the Greekspeaking lands elsewhere in the Mediterranean." p 87 Ehrman shows that each of the Gospel texts is based on "oral traditions that had been in circulation for years among communities of Christians in different parts of the world, all of them attesting to the existence of Jesus. And some of these traditions must have originated in Aramaic-speaking communities of Palestine, probably in the 30s CE, within several years at least of the traditional date of the death of Jesus." pp 92-93
Then Ehrman explains why Papias, who was born in 63 CE and was a Bishop in the Early Church is so very important in understanding the Oral Gospel Traditions. Papias had written a flve-volume on the Oral Tradition and more importantly, he had direct access to "the sayings of Jesus. He was personally acquainted with people who had known either the apostles themselves or their companions." p 98 Also it was Matthew who reduced the oral tradition to writing as Papias reports, “And so Matthew composed the sayings in the Hebrew tongue, and each one interpreted [or translated] them to the best of his ability.” p 100
Finally although Ehrman takes the position that Matthew reduced the Oral Tradition to a Hebrew dialect (probably Aramaic) he does not believe that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel is the same as the Gospel of Matthew in our Bible. Because there is "a collection of Jesus's sayings made by Matthew, there is no reason to think that he is referring to" what we call Matthew. Ehrman adds, in fact, what Papias "says about these books does not coincide with what we ourselves know about the canonical Gospels." The Hebrew Gospel written by Matthew is distinct from the Gospel of Matthew that eventually came to be included in Scripture. p 101 Papias then, is "testimony that is independent of the Gospels themselves. It is yet one more independent line of testimony among the many we have seen so far. And this time it is a testimony that explicitly and credibly traces its own lineage directly back to the disciples of Jesus themselves." P 101
Maurice Casey is one of Britain's most noted historians. He is Emeritus Professor at the University of Nottingham, having served there as Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the Department of Theology. His most recent work Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching, Continuum International Publishing Group, 2010. p 9-12 supports the aforementioned scholarship. There can be little doubt that the language of oral transmission of the Gospel was Aramaic for "Jesus taught in Aramaic, which was also the language spoken by his family and by all his followers" p 108 during the formative tears of Christianity.
Furthermore, he too believes that Matthew collected the oral traditions of Jesus and reduced them to writing. "Papias attributed the collection of some Gospel traditions to the apostle Matthew, one of the Twelve, who wrote them down... There is every reason to believe this. It explains the high proportion of literally accurate traditions, mostly of sayings of Jesus, in the 'Q' material and in material unique to the Gospel of Matthew. p 86 Therefore "it is genuinely true that the apostle Matthew 'compiled the sayings/oracles in a Hebrew language." 88 Finally, he agrees with Ehrman that Matthew's Hebrew Gospel has no connection with our Gospel of Matthew. "This tradition is complete nonsense, as most scholars have recognized." p 87
Unlike Casey and Ehrman, James Edwards is a Christian scholar. He is a Bruner-Welch Professor of Theology, an Ordained Presbyterian minister, a contributing editor of Christianity Today, and member of the Center of Theological Inquiry, Princeton. In his most recent work the The Hebrew Gospel and the development of the Synoptic Tradition, Eerdmans Publishing, 2009. p 2 he confirms that the Oral Gospel traditions were collected by Matthew and that Matthew wrote them down in the Hebrew Gospel. p3
Then Edwards evaluates the testimony of Papias using the criteria of Casey and Ehrman. Papias is supported by 75 ancient witnesses who testified to the fact that there was a Hebrew Gospel in circulation. Google Link Twelve of the Church Fathers testified that it was written by the Apostle Matthew. Google Link No ancient writer, either Christian or Non Christian, challenged these two facts. Google Link
So far this 21st C. scholarship has not been well received at Wikipedia. It has been argued the the material from Bart Ehrman, Maurice Casey, and James Edwards is 'original research' and has no place at Wikipedia. The result is that we are now in a state of gridlock. We have been unable to get past the Oral gospel traditions stub. What is needed are editors who are willing to review the reliable sources and expand the stub into an article written from a NPOV. - Ret.Prof ( talk) 13:47, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
To me, the examples from Classical culture in the introduction are misleading. In ancient Greek, they may be "good news" using the some variation of eu + angelion, "good message"—but that would belong in the etymology section to explain the relation between euvangelion and the OE "gospel". And the examples would need to have citations to show their relevance (presumably, ancient sources use a form of euvangelion in describing these announcements). It seems a rather extreme case of undue weight in the intro. Cynwolfe ( talk) 22:19, 18 July 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No move. Cúchullain t/ c 19:11, 17 October 2013 (UTC)
– The topic of this page is a genre of literature (narratives of Jesus' life). That topic is distinct though related to the gospel as the concept of a central message of Christianity, something like Jesus died and is risen, or repent and believe in Christ, etc. The distinction is also made clear by the common Christian belief that the gospel was proclaimed to Adam and Eve and throughout the Old Testament through typology and prophesy. Jesus also uses the term many times. The genre of literature is clearly not the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for the term "gospel", as demonstrated by the popularity of phrases like "believe the gospel" and "preach the gospel", as well as the derived nature of the meaning of the term as a genre (books are called gospels because they testify to the gospel). I had been favoring Gospel (genre), but that is easily confused with the music genre. JFH ( talk) 03:35, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Seeking comment from other editors re: recent changes to the lead without discussion. The current lead begins with "A gospel is an account describing the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus of Nazareth," and there is is an alternate view that it should read "A gospel is a written body of teachings of a religious group that are generally accepted as true by that group." While not referenced, the content in the body of the article seems to fit with the current sentence. Can we please have views of editors with a view to reaching consensus, and perhaps an appropriate source? Best wishes Flat Out let's discuss it 10:09, 4 February 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Gospel's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "Hertzog1":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 14:42, 26 October 2014 (UTC)
Under the Dating section in the Wikipedia page, the following statement is made about the Gospel of John: "The majority view is that it was written in stages, so there was no one date of composition." -- well, there is no such majority view, and there is likewise no source given for this claim. It's really just a mere assertion that seems to have gotten into this page without any citations added to it. Thus, unless objection is made, I will edit the Wikipedia page to omit this unsubstantiated phrase. Korvex ( talk) 00:38, 19 December 2016 (UTC)
PiCo, the matter is not the reliability of the sentence, but its verifiability. It currently has no source. Dimadick ( talk) 13:04, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
"Biblical scholars generally agree that early oral traditions about Jesus, along with collections of accounts, preceded the canonical gospels."
A "citation needed" tag has been sitting in this sentence for more than three years now, but to me at least, it is not quite clear what exactly the citation is being requested for:
Are you looking for secondary literature supporting the claim that "early oral traditions about Jesus ... preceded the canonical gospels"? (That should be an easy one.)
Strictly speaking, the tag asks for sources supporting the claim that "Biblical scholars generally agree..." (on this point). Now obviously this can't be supported by simply naming a bunch of Biblical scholars (which would be original research anyway), instead, it would require some sort of meta level source analyzing what the majority of Biblical scholars agree upon. I can't really imagine where one would find that kind of source.
I don't know who put this tag in here, but I am sure it would help to know what is being asked for. -- 93.212.233.204 ( talk) 21:40, 3 May 2017 (UTC)
I have added/fixed some sourcing issues. However I could not immediately resolve the following, so any help is welcome: