![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
@ Amanda A. Brant, where is the consensus for including the current hatnote with its current wording? I see a discussion on the target page here: Talk:Anti-gender movement#Misleading hatnote, which doesn’t look like consensus to me.
Why do we have this hatnote at all? The
guidance says Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.
. This article has a pretty specific title. Is there really a reasonable possibility that the reader intended to arrive at the other article?
Barnards.tar.gz ( talk) 08:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Ignoring the target article and sources for now
broader movement, I would say
broader anti-trans movementor
broader anti-gender movementto make it clear we are not referring to feminism in general. Loki ( talk) 23:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
the conservative or religious movement. Sweet6970 ( talk) 15:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.
I've reworded the hatnote to say "the conservative or religious movement" rather than "the broader movement" as proposed above. The new text is objectively accurate and mirrors the note on the linked page back to this one. The old text is unsupported by reliable sources and clearly does not have consensus support here. Anyone restoring the old text would need strong sources that the entire GCF movement is actually a sub-movement of the "broader" religious one, which is daft. -- Colin° Talk 08:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
[...] and that they 'argue that such developments result from what they call 'gender ideology" (Pearce et al. 2020, p. 681). The authors then go on to identify the term 'gender ideology' as originating 'in anti-feminist and anti-trans discourses among right-wing Christians, with the Catholic Church acting as a major nucleating agent' (p. 681). They write that this term has been 'increasingly adopted by far-right organizations and politicians', who 'position gender egalitarianism, sexual liberation and LGBTQ+ rights as an attack on traditional values by 'global elites" (p. 681). It is not uncommon for detractors to link gender-critical feminism to conservative groups, although the most common form is to simply suggest 'alliances', exploiting left ideological purity in order to discredit gender-critical feminists. [...] But whether or not the authors give a fair reconstruction of the history of 'gender ideology', it is much more common for gender-critical feminists to refer to gender identity ideology, specifically picking out the worldview of those who advocate for the replacement of sex with gender identity.
it has become a rather broad, vague term that may encompass a range of rather different beliefs
even their term for themselves ("gender critical") seems clearly based on anti-gender
The contemporary trans rights movement emerged in the early 1990s on both sides of the Atlantic through a blend of legal activism and academic theorisation. The present movement is distinguished by a belief system we will call here 'gender identity ideology' or 'trans ideology,' the core claim of which is that being a man or a woman is a matter of gender identity rather than biological sex.
Radical materialist feminists, by contrast, retain second-wave feminism's distinction between the material reality of sex and the cultural construction of gender. We argue that women's subjugation by the social norms and cultural values of patriarchal gender is a historical development which functions by converting women's reproductive capacities and domestic labour into an appropriable resource.
In that book I noted that this movement for sex-based rights, popularly known as gender-critical feminism, has a disagreement with mainstream or socially dominant conceptions of feminism in multiple areas, including about prostitution and pornography, about transgender issues, and about intersectionality. One of my arguments in that book was that while gender-critical feminism is ceaselessly positioned by its detractors as being about trans issues — indeed, as being essentially `anti-trans' — gender-critical feminism's disagreement with gender identity activism (the activism of some members of the trans community and their allies) is actually just an implication of its core commitments to a sex-based feminism, and not its central preoccupation.
This discussion should be of interest to radical and gender-critical feminists (and their allies) committed to gender abolitionism
The gender abolition pathway comes with costs for one final social group: those social conservatives who think that conformity to gender norms is morally good, and that the gender roles that result from conformity to gender norms structure society in a positive and meaningful way.
The first classic move MacKinnon makes against gender-critical feminists turns on conflating gender-critical feminism with gender conservatism, positioning us as anti-feminist conservatives in feminist drag.
MacKinnon likewise declares that “the feminist anti-transgender position is built on…the notion that gender is biologically based”, without evidence. Such evidence is perhaps superfluous, given that the tropes conflating gender criticism with gender conservatism are by now so well-worn they have accrued the patina of truthiness.
MacKinnon misrepresents the gender-critical position by equating it with gender conservatism
Void if removed ( talk) 16:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)no matter how often gender-critical feminists assert that we don’t believe that sex determines gender, both constructivist academics and trans activists keep insisting that we are “essentialist” in the “bad political sense” and obdurately conflating our position with gender conservatism.
the related conservative movement? Loki ( talk) 21:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
"believing that people can be any sex they want to be". When many people hear that, their first thoughts are that being trans isn't a lifestyle choice, so he's talking out of his arse. And the second thought would be not to believe another word they say on the topic. If we make that mistake on Wikipedia, in our hatnote or lead especially, then we just alienate the readers folk here want to convinced of the facts.
The word terf is negative because it's critical of something (in this case transphobia). It shouldn't be listed as derogation. Lados75 ( talk) 15:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
quite a gap. Dictionaries often don't define long phrases but I have no doubt it'd be considered derogatory as well, for the same reason that calling someone a transphobe is derogatory. A TERF is a kind of transphobe, so no kidding it's derogatory. Loki ( talk) 02:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Given this page is a mish mash of different things, I suggest creating dedicated section titled "Gender Critical Views".
I suggest the page should first and foremost be about gender critical feminism, and that all sources that do not specifically refer to gender critical feminism, but are instead about far more broadly construed "views" or "movements" or "narratives", be moved to this section, and subsections within it. I think eventually this will take up at least half the article.
This would essentially split the article in two. Then, if that works and helps clarify the distinctions and divisions, consider separating into two articles. Void if removed ( talk) 12:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Several commentators have described the level of transphobia in British society in general (including the negative coverage of trans-related issues in the media) and the support for trans-exclusionary radical feminism (TERF) in particular as unusual compared to other Western countries, and the discourse on transgender-related issues in the United Kingdom has been called a "TERF war".
Anti-gender rhetoric has seen increasing circulation in trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF) discourse since 2016.
The organization has been described as anti-trans, anti-gender, trans-exclusionary, trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), and as a hate group, and in several countries the group has been linked to the far right.
Raymond and other cultural feminists like Mary Daly argue that a "she-male" or "male-to-constructed female" is still male and constitutes a patriarchal attack by males upon the female essence. This is often considered to be part of trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF) ideology.
Have a read of our articles about the people you would label TERFs. Wikipedia never ever calls them TERFs, though it may note that some people have called them that. Articles about people. You know, biographies. None of the articles you list are biographies or actually call someone a TERF. You know, like "Alice Smith is a writer, singer and TERF..." Oh, and the first four links Void gives are all made by the same person, Amanda, so reflects their preferred choice of term, which is how Wikipedia is made and fine but entirely unconvincing that this is any kind of consensus. -- Colin° Talk 14:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't know how many times I've said that it is allowed for our sources, even our best ones, to be biased, to use polemic tone, to be advocacy, even to hate. That doesn't stop them being "reliable sources" but it does stop them being impartial ones.
Impartial sources like the best news reporting from Reuters or PA or BBC do not call people TERFs, nor do they bamboozle their readers with historical jargon that is nearly always inaccurate like "trans-exclusionary radical feminists".
Neutral is to call a group of people what they call themselves. In every other sphere of social concerns that is the case.
Since both the radical feminist and gender critical traditions have a history of strong trans support and advocacy, the use of TERF, especially within-- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 10:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
the context of social media, serves as an important rhetorical intervention against the effort by anti-trans sex essentialist activists to colonize “radical feminist” and “gender critical” identities. While the term TERF is critiqued as being antagonistic, it nonetheless fills a discursive void in that it concisely assigns a lexical identity to a set of ideas pioneered by the TERF movement, regardless of who makes use of these arguments. In this way, TERF can be used both to identify a specific morality-driven rhe- torical tradition and to distinguish it from trans- inclusive traditions and movements.
Her goal, as she unambiguously stated in her work, was “morally mandating [transsexualism] out of existence” (p. 178). It is this shared vision of morality that discursively binds TERFs to the ideological right.
I contend that the problem of transsexualism would best be served by morally mandating it out of existence. Does a moral mandate, however, necessitate that transsexualism be legally mandated out of existence? What is the relationship between law and morality, in the realm of transsexualism? While there are many who feel that morality must be built into law, I believe that the elimination of transsexualism is not best achieved by legislation prohibiting transsexual treatment and surgery but rather by legislation that limits it—and by other legislation that lessens the support given to sex-role stereotyping, which generated the problem to begin with.
Many see a very definite connection between social morality and its preservation in law. They would argue that if there were a broad social consensus about the immorality of transsexual surgery, then the law should incarnate that social morality. Others, of course, would argue that to ground issues of law in the social conscience is not always protective of individual rights and may, in fact, be destructive of those rights. They would say that the law can only legislate against individual rights when they can be shown to be directly harmful to another’s rights. I do not wish to argue either of these positions.
The prevention of transsexual surgery, and the social conditions that generate it, are not achieved by legislation forbidding surgery. In the case of transsexual surgery, the good to be achieved, that is, the integrity of the individual and of the society, does not seem best served by making transsexual surgery illegal. Rather it is more important to regulate, by legal measures, the sexist, social conditions that generate transsexual surgery, and also legally to limit the medical-institutional complex that translates these sexist conditions into the realm of transsexualism. Thus I am advocating a limiting legislative presence, along with First Cause legislation, which, instead of directing legal action to the consequences of a genderdefined society (in this case, to transsexualism), directs action to the social forces and medical institutions that produce the transsexual empire.
Legislation dealing with First Causes would concern itself with the network of sex-role stereotyping that produces the schizoid state of a “female mind in a male body.” The education of children is one case in point here. Images of sex roles continue to be reinforced, at public expense, in school textbooks. The message is that such roles are assigned to male and female bodies in our society.
"community built on androgynous identity will mean the end of transsexuality as we know it [...] as roles disappear, the phenomenon of transsexuality will disappear".
For Raymond, true liberation cannot be secured by any mere blending of sex roles. Rather, it must be secured through a transcendence of sex role altogether (164). This suggests a notion of the self that is prior to sex role or at least a notion of a self that can be freed from the cultural interpretations of sex. Raymond's solution to “the problem” of transsexuality which she sees as promoting the surgical violation of bodily integrity, is to “morally mandate it out of existence” (178) by working against sex role oppression through education and consciousness raising (178–185).
Hungerford promoted the term as a euphemism for beliefs, rhetoric, and behavior that were critical of trans people. [...] Hungerford’s rhetorical work was aimed at languaging a sex essentialist anti-trans ideology as feminism
In the international academic community, it's a small and therefore fringe groupReally? Because there is plenty of what you could call "gender-critical feminism" in academia from Latin America, Russia, and the rest of non-Anglophone Europe. See, e.g., La coeducación secuestrada: Crítica feminista a la penetración de las ideas transgeneristas en la educación (Silvia Carrasco et al, Spain), Le llaman feminismo y no lo es. Cuestiones De género: De La Igualdad Y La Diferencia ( Alicia Miyares Fernández, Spain), the high regard for Sheila Jeffreys among some Brazilian feminists, the descriptions of the Latin lesbian feminist community by Dominican Ochy Curiel in Sobre el VI Encuentro Lésbico Feminista Latinoamericano y la no inclusión de trans, and many others. It's not just British "Raymondists" engaging in gender-critical rhetoric. JoelleJay ( talk) 01:43, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Are we really arguing over whether it's acceptable for us to use the term "TERF" in wikivoice?!
It looks like the reply function misplaced my comment. Anyway, I still agree with Colin and Void that it's inappropriate to use activist works to define in wikivoice the ideological bounds of a term/group the activists oppose, especially when it seems there is some conflation by them of GCF as an academic niche that extends well beyond trans identity vs as a modern euphemism for TERF. JoelleJay ( talk) 05:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia never ever calls them TERFs, though it may note that some people have called them that. It certainly doesn't claim they follow "TERFism" or "TERF ideology".It's sad that such policy prevails in English Wikipedia.
extends well beyond trans identityor indeed is substantially different from trans-exclusionary feminism. At most, the difference is that it's not necessarily "radical".) Loki ( talk) 07:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
feminist anti-transgender manifesto influential within and outside feminist movements, that
trans exclusion has come to characterize “second-wave” 1970s feminism, and that
[l]iteratures grounded in [1990s postructural feminism, in particular works of Judith Butler] discuss trans people and trans bodies in order to argue that neither gender nor “biological sex” exist outside of cultural contexts or understandings and the systems of knowledge that produce them. This is a significant departure from trans exclusionary radical feminism. The framing implies that erasing trans people was a ubiquitous conscious effort and that the "transgender question" is ultimately relevant to and opined upon by all feminist scholarship from the 1970s on. This is a fine resource for topics discussing the perspective of transgender studies, but it is not a wikivoice-acceptable source for an overview of "feminism" and especially not for stating what a particular feminist ideology is. JoelleJay ( talk) 20:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
I think it is time to put this section to bed. People have made their views clear and the policy requirements on us as editors are clear. Have editors got actual serious changes-to-the article proposals to make? Make your suggestions then. -- Colin° Talk 08:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
In the chapter, History, there's some space between the last paragraph and the start of another chapter, Around the World. Since I used the legacy theme, I thought I could've been an issue of said theme alone, but after switching to the default theme, same problem. I wanted to make a quick minor edit, but considering my account doesn't met the requirements, I thought making a comment here would help. The second block seems to work when previewing it, where the first block shows what the issue is.
In her own 1987 book ''[[Gyn/Ecology]]'', [[Mary Daly]], who had served as Raymond's thesis supervisor,<ref>{{Cite web|title=Feminist theologian Mary Daly dies|url=https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|access-date=3 July 2020|website=The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc.|language=en|archive-date=8 March 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308171932/https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|url-status=live}}</ref> argued that as sex reassignment surgery cannot reproduce female chromosomes or a female life history, it could "not produce women".<ref>Daly, Mary, ''Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism'' (Boston, Mass.: Beacon Press, pbk. [1st printing? printing of [19]90?] 1978 & 1990 (prob. all content except ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1978 & prob. ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1990) ({{ISBN|0-8070-1413-3}})).</ref> [[Sheila Jeffreys]] and [[Germaine Greer]] have made similar remarks.<ref name = BINDEL2>{{cite news | last= Bindel | first= Julie | author-link= Julie Bindel | title= The ugly side of beauty | work= [[The Guardian]] | date= 2 July 2005 | url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | access-date= 16 June 2023 | archive-date= 25 February 2021 | archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210225140358/http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | url-status= live }}</ref> In a response to related remarks by [[Elizabeth Grosz]], philosopher [[Eva Simone Hayward|Eva Hayward]] characterized this type of view as telling trans people who have had sex reassignment surgery: "Don't exist."<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Hayward |first1=Eva S. |title=Don't Exist |journal=[[Transgender Studies Quarterly]] |date=2017 |volume=4 |issue=2 |pages=191–194|doi=10.1215/23289252-3814985 }}</ref>
== Around the world ==
=== United Kingdom ===
<!-- More detail and more sources about the early history would be nice -->
In her own 1987 book ''[[Gyn/Ecology]]'', [[Mary Daly]], who had served as Raymond's thesis supervisor,<ref>{{Cite web|title=Feminist theologian Mary Daly dies|url=https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|access-date=3 July 2020|website=The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc.|language=en|archive-date=8 March 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308171932/https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|url-status=live}}</ref> argued that as sex reassignment surgery cannot reproduce female chromosomes or a female life history, it could "not produce women".<ref>Daly, Mary, ''Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism'' (Boston, Mass.: Beacon Press, pbk. [1st printing? printing of [19]90?] 1978 & 1990 (prob. all content except ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1978 & prob. ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1990) ({{ISBN|0-8070-1413-3}})).</ref> [[Sheila Jeffreys]] and [[Germaine Greer]] have made similar remarks.<ref name = BINDEL2>{{cite news | last= Bindel | first= Julie | author-link= Julie Bindel | title= The ugly side of beauty | work= [[The Guardian]] | date= 2 July 2005 | url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | access-date= 16 June 2023 | archive-date= 25 February 2021 | archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210225140358/http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | url-status= live }}</ref> In a response to related remarks by [[Elizabeth Grosz]], philosopher [[Eva Simone Hayward|Eva Hayward]] characterized this type of view as telling trans people who have had sex reassignment surgery: "Don't exist."<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Hayward |first1=Eva S. |title=Don't Exist |journal=[[Transgender Studies Quarterly]] |date=2017 |volume=4 |issue=2 |pages=191–194|doi=10.1215/23289252-3814985 }}</ref>
== Around the world ==
=== United Kingdom ===
<!-- More detail and more sources about the early history would be nice -->
Considering the nature of this page, I full-heartily hope this isn't inappropriate to do. Danny, JumboSizedFish ( talk) 22:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Pinging all involved @ LokiTheLiar: @ XTheBedrockX: @ Void if removed: @ Snokalok:. I removed the lede image because it isn't a common symbol used by gender-critical feminism and instead is a low-quality text poster, it was readded by Void if Removed, removed for lack of rational, and then readded by me then reverted.
If we look at other articles say capitalism, socialism, authoritarianism they lack any lede images instead showing a sidebar of with a common symbol used by their movement/ideology. They do not have a random propaganda poster explaining their worldview, it would take away from those articles. If the lede image is going to be present it should be consistent with other lede images of articles and be symbol common of gender-critical feminism, say a commonly used flag. The lede image in it's current state does not represent the article, nor does it fit the requirements of WP:LEDEIMAGE.
Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic; they should not only illustrate the topic specifically, but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see. Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic.
The current image does not illustrate the topic anymore then text in the article already does but in WikiVoice, it's not a high or exceptional image, and it also does not show the the reader to get any information, or otherwise. Des Vallee ( talk) 19:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Can anyone help me dig up some original sources of GC’s saying things about socialization? I’m trying as I can, but it’s an experience reminiscent of when I had to search for anti-vaxx views online for a school project in 2015 - the actual views are hard to find, and the criticism of them is much more common. As such, if anyone has any original sources, it’d help. Snokalok ( talk) 14:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Is it worth adding yesterday's judgment against Westminster Council and Social Work England? Seems to be notable.
More here:
https://unherd.com/thepost/victory-for-social-worker-harassed-over-gender-critical-beliefs/
https://www.localgov.co.uk/Tribunal-rules-against-council-in-discrimination-case-/58630
https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-rachel-meade-westminster-city-council-social-work-england/ Void if removed ( talk) 14:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The opinions expressed by the Claimant could not sensibly be viewed as being transphobic when properly considered in their full context from an objective perspective
One of the front-lines of dispute is about whether GCFs should be characterised as intrinsically transphobic, hateful or akin to racists. Where these concepts intersect with laws, a judge is very much a subject matter expert.
It is the first case of its kind where an employer and regulator have both been found liable for discrimination in relation to gender-critical beliefs, which Ms Meade described as the thought that “there are two sexes, male and female” and “that a person cannot change their sex”.
were of a nature that they aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms of others contrary to Article 17(para 194). In this instance, the tribunal found that the manifestations of Meade's beliefs did not rise to the level specified in para 194. There is also a lot of detail from paragraphs 205 to 266 detailing where the employer (first respondent) and complainant against Meade (second respondent) both were correct (eg, para 207 and 235 found that Meade's initial suspension on 22 July 2021 did not amount to discrimination for her beliefs) and incorrect (eg para 211 where the employer did not
clearly identify the posts which they are considered went beyond a manifestation of the Claimant’s protected beliefs and why they considered this to be the caseand para 233 where it was only the actions taken after 6 November 2021 which the tribunal found discriminatory).
Gender-critical feminists believe sex is biological and cannot be changed, and disagree with trans rights activists who say gender identity should be given priority in terms of law-making and policy. Clashes in workplaces – in some cases with those who regard the focus on biological sex as transphobic – have led to a string of employment tribunals.
Another tribunal result is in: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65ae82d58bbe95000e5eb1f7/Ms_J_Pheonix_v_The_Open_University_3322700.2021___other_FMH_Reserved_Judgment.pdf *Dan T.* ( talk) 22:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
In a judgment published on Monday, the tribunal found that Prof Louise Westmarland, head of discipline in social policy and criminology at the OU, made the “racist uncle” comment, which amounted to harassment…..and
Prof Westmarland knew that likening the claimant to a racist was upsetting for the claimant. We conclude that its purpose was to violate the claimant’s dignity because inherent in the comment is an insult of being put in the same category as racists”.
The judgment said: “We find that the claimant was not provided with effective protection from the effects of the launch of the GCRN. We find that the respondent did not provide the claimant protection particularly in the form of asking staff and students not to launch campaigns to deplatform the GCRN, or make calls to remove support for the claimant’s gender critical research, or use social media to label the claimant transphobic or TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist).
Saying that it is "known to its opponents as..." is plainly non-neutral wording and is completely unacceptable in the lead sentence. The given sources do not describe it that way; many of them use it as if it is a neutral descriptor and the proper terminology. Characterizing the authors as opponents is editorializing on our part. Furthermore, the framing implies that "gender critical" is the 'real', neutral term, which every source for that sentence contradicts - all of them present it as a self-description and use quotes surrounding it to make it clear it is a non-neutral term. If we were to qualify TERF with "...known to its opponents...", we would have to insert "Self-described" before "gender-critical", otherwise we'd be misusing the sources. -- Aquillion ( talk) 09:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
The acronym TERF, which means Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism, was coined by the Australian blogger Viv Smythe in 2008 to refer to a specific form of feminist hostility towards trans issues.
we see the expression ‘gender-critical feminism’ – a self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others – as problematic because it serves specific actors to ‘rebrand’ their anti-trans activism and to legitimise their own positions by presenting them as more moderate (Thurlow, 2022) or as doing critical work (Ahmed, 2021). While several authors in this special issue have suggested new expressions to address this phenomenon, we prefer to use the term TERFnesses based on the term TERF, because of its resonance in contemporary debates
The introduction to a recent blatantly hostile source addition ("Exploring TERFnesses") even at one point uses the term "FART". I wonder quite why we're taking such pathetic juvenilia seriously TBH (and this is from a prominent and influential activist and author, not some random nobody), but there we are.
our usage reflects the highest-quality usage, not random blogs or opinion pieces
In the UK trans inclusive and gender critical feminists hold positions that are increasingly polarised. While the latter seek to exclude trans women from the category ‘woman’ and advocate for single sex spaces that would exclude trans women, they argue that the term ‘TERF’ (trans exclusionary radical feminist) is a derogatory slur in part due to its use by opponents on social media, and they prefer the term ‘gender critical’. While ‘TERF’ itself is a contested term and argued not to be a slur by some on the trans inclusive side, I will apply ‘gender critical’ here out of respect for people’s rights to self-define.
In 2008, denigrating the motives of critics of gender identity theory was given a big boost with the invention of a 'TERF'. TERF stands for 'Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist'. It was reportedly coined by American Viv Smythe. In 2008 Smythe was running a feminist blog. In a post, she promoted the Michigan Womyn's Musical Festival, also known as Michfest. When founded in 1976, Michfest had been conceived by its radical feminist organisers as for females only - or, as organisers named them, 'Womyn-born-womyn'. There was a heavy lesbian presence, in the traditional same-sex sense, amongst attendees. Latterly, the festival had become controversial for its explicit exclusion of trans women from the event. (Indeed, eventually Michfest closed in 2015, partly due to this controversy.) Smythe was quickly taken to task by blog readers for her promotion of Michfest, and in the course of her subsequent public apology, coined the acronym TERF. She wrote, of her promise not to promote any trans-exclusionary feminist event' in future: 'I am aware that this decision is likely to affront some trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs).'n The term TERF rapidly took off, as memorable acronyms often do - perhaps helped by its ugly phonetics and capacity to be easily barked out as an insult or threat. Though in Smythe's original construction, TERFs were, by definition, feminists, later popular usage of the term widened to refer to any person at all who had, for whatever reason, an even mildly critical perspective on the bundle of ideas that constitutes gender identity theory. Indeed, trans women and trans men themselves came to be called TERFs, whenever they worried that gender identity alone was not what made you a woman or man.
Despite its alleged introduction as a neutral acronym for a version of radical feminism, in its current usage the term `TERF' has evolved so that it has become derogatory in at least its implicature if not its content. The term is widely used to apply to those who hold that the sex category 'female' has social and political relevance in certain contexts regardless "of gender identity. The term is almost exclusively used in derogatory and dehumanizing ways, and often accompanied by violent imagery, by those who are critical of people who take such a view. On seven different accounts of slurs, TERF appears to meet the criterion for counting as a slur.
TERF is an acronym meaning “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.” While the term has become controversial over time, especially with its often hateful deployment on social media, it originally described a subgroup of feminists who believe that the interests of cisgender women (those who are born with vaginas) don’t necessarily intersect with those of transgender women (primarily those born with penises). [...] TERF “is widely used across online platforms as a way to denigrate and dismiss the women (and some men) who disagree with the dominant narrative on trans issues,” the scholars wrote.
Void if removed ( talk) 23:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)The acronym has become so widely shared in social media activism and mainstream journalism that it has become almost a void, as it is applied to anyone expressing transphobic, prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise exclusionary views about trans men, trans women and all transgender and trans people. It is applied to those who are not feminist activists and would never identify themselves as feminists; it is put onto those who may be feminists but are certainly not Radical Feminists; it has become a shorthand for transphobic, and mostly applied to women
We weighed it up, and because of the intentions of the coiner and the fact that there is a little bit more nuance behind its usage – it’s not always just a straight-out insult – we took the approach that we would explain that in a note. We felt it was a bit more nuanced than just slapping on derogatory or chiefly derogatory[3]
"Transgender advocates say that gender-critical feminism is not a neutral term, and argue the importance of using trans-exclusionary feminism or trans-exclusionary radical feminism instead. The latter is commonly abbreviated as TERF, but this form has become contentious and is typically considered derogatory."Void if removed ( talk) 11:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Though it was created as a deliberately neutral descriptor, "TERF" is now typically considered derogatory."
PBZE ( talk) 19:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Claire Thurlow noted that since the 2010s, there has been a shift in language from "TERF" to "gender critical feminism," which she described as " dog-whistle politics whereby the phrases act as a coded message of anti-transness to those initiated." Mauro Cabral Grinspan, Ilana Eloit, David Paternotte and Mieke Verloo argued that "we see the expression ‘gender-critical feminism’ – a self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others – as problematic because it serves specific actors to ‘rebrand’ their anti-trans activism and to legitimise their own positions."
@
Sweet6970, you just
reverted my recent addition to history stating delete material which is not about g-c feminism – see WP:COATRACK
.
The material was added from the SAGE Enclyopedia of Trans Studies' TERF entry, specifically it's section TERF activism
which says The following is a timeline of TERF activism that proved structurally or culturally significant.
And before the "TERF doesn't mean GC" argument gets pulled, the source is 110% explicit that Since Hungerford’s 2013 announcement, gender critical and radical feminist are the primary self-identities used by TERFs when publicly discussing the equality of trans people.
It is obviously about g-c feminism
, so please self-revert.
Relatedly, I believe you should self-revert
this edit, where you changed Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, published in 1979, purported to examine the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes
to ...examined the role...
You're an experienced editor so I feel weird having to point out 1) that is absolutely not a claim that should go in wikivoice without reliable secondary sources agreeing and 2) there are no reliable secondary sources agreeing, it's cited to Raymond herself.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (
talk)
17:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
TERF activism that proved structurally or culturally significant. Are you saying the gender-critical movement sprang into existence in 2013? You said the
phenomenon of "gender-critical feminism" which emerged some 40 years later, about 5 years after TERF was coined- but that is not what the sources say at all. The sources say they're different names, not different concepts. This article already says that even...
TERF activismis actually
a timeline of trans history.?
the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypesis absolutely not appropriate for wikivoice without secondary sourcing (it is her opinion trans identities do that, not a fact) and 2) there isn't secondary sourcing. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 19:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
a timeline of trans history
my point about Janice Raymond still stands
Popularized in 2008 by an online cisgender feminist community, TERF is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. The community used the term to refer to the sex essentialist feminists who were flooding into their discussion space. TERFs asserted that “sex” was reducible to specific body attributes or to early socialization and therefore saw trans women as men and sought to remove them from “women’s spaces” and the lesbian feminist movement.
The linguistic and cultural utility of TERF becomes apparent when one considers the reality that practically every contemporary anti-trans sex essentialist argument was originally asserted in Janice Raymond’s 1979 TERF classic, The Transsexual Empire.
TERFis an acronym for
transgender exclusionary radical feminist, who sources agree prefer the term
gender criticalfor themselves. Don't mistake a name for the emergence of whole new branch of feminism. Simple yes/no question: is the source referring to radical feminists who believed that trans women should be excluded from women's spaces? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 22:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Sources are supposed to be WP:VERIFIABLEThat is not how WP:V works or what it means. The sources that we use on enwiki are not beholden to enwiki's policies, and there is no requirement in either WP:V or WP:RS that our sources "show their working". What V actually means is the information, whether it be facts, allegations, quotations, etc., that we include in our articles is verifiable to what one or more reliable sources state about the topic.
Popularized in 2008 by an online cisgender feminist communityappears on page 822. The text beginning
The linguistic and cultural utility of TERFis on page 825. With those page numbers, and the rest of the citation information (ie publication name, publisher, author, ISBN, etc), it is possible for any reader or editor with access to the source to verify that the source states that information. That is where the requirements of WP:V end.
There are no named individuals with a recognisable ideology, simply "TERF activists"True, but not unusual given the nature of the source being used, nor the nature of the content. The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies is a tertiary source. It is briefly summarising and contextualising information already present in multiple other secondary and primary sources. For example, the expulsion of Beth Elliott from the Daughters of Bilitis and later harassment and attack of Elliott at the April 1973 West Coast Lesbian Conference is verifiable to a large array of secondary sources over on Elliott's article in the Daughters of Bilitis and West Coast Lesbian Conference sections. There's no reason why we could also bring those sources across here to further support what the tertiary source has stated. However even reliable secondary sources like Meyerowitz where she wrote about the West Coast Lesbian Conference don't name all of the individual activists, because several of the incidents involve large groups of people. Meyerowitz does however name one radfem who used their keynote speech at the conference to denounce and attack Elliott, Robin Morgan. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
about incidents in trans historyand are out of scope of this article? Otherwise I don't find your objection per COATRACK to be convincing. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
the point is that the material is not about g-c feminismExcept that it is? I've got a copy of that encyclopaedia in front of me, and the content that YFNS added is explicitly in a section about
structurally or culturally significantTERF activism, covering activities from 1973 through to 2019. Two pages after this in the same chapter details the transition in branding (for lack of a better term) by the activists who are the subject of this article from TERF to gender-critical. Though the names have changed over time, they are still fundamentally the same group of activists or feminists, whether they are called gender-critical, TERF, or some other term. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a branch of feminism. It is not about trans people. So (dubious) anecdotes about trans people have no place here.They aren't anecdotes about trans people. They are early instances of what we would now call TERF or gender-criticial activism against trans people, in this case three trans women, to try and prevent them from participating in events (Elliott at the West Coast Lesbian Conference and Rivera at the Christopher Street Liberation Day rally), groups (Elliot with the Daughters of Bilitis), or their work (Stone at Olivia Records). The trans women are the targets of the activism, not the perpetrators of it. Both the SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies (a tertiary source), and multiple secondary sources (like Meyerowitz and those in the biographical articles of the three subjects) cover it in the context of the topic of this article. It is part of the history of this type of feminism, in the same manner that the suffragette bombing and arson campaign in the UK is an important part of the overall history of the UK suffragette movement.
Your argument about my analogy demonstrates that I am correct – there is nothing about Disraeli, Baldwin, or Macmillan in the article about Socialism.I think you have misunderstood what I said. Socialism as a topic on enwiki is covered in multiple related articles. As one of several prominent political philosophies there is a lot to write about it, much more than can be summarised in any one article. As a result, the content is split over multiple articles all of which are linked within the Socialism sidebar template. Disraeli and the rest are not mentioned in main socialism article, because that is a high level overview of the breadth of the entire topic. They are however mentioned on more specialised articles within the same series, because those specialised articles go into the depth of the topic.
the inclusion of a wide range of contributors, including professionals in the field, academics, activists, and writers.
The contributors are a mix of academics[...]; independent scholars; journalists; and non-academics
In addition to the standard practice of including the work of university-affiliated researchers, the Encyclopedia features entries from independent scholars writing outside the context of academia; practitioners working directly with trans client populations; activists and organizers; and leaders of trans-led and trans-supportive organizations.
trans exclusionary radical feministor just the acronym
TERF?
PARTISAN activist?
stated WP:POV? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 15:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The TransAdvocate aims to improve the lives of transgender people through investigative news and nuanced commentary from a boots-on-the-ground trans advocate perspective.
The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies centers trans people and experiences
Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.. This is fine as long as we accept that this is a viewpoint, and not definitive, and thereby exclude other viewpoints. There is a difference between two irreconcilable positions on much of this topic, and we're relying on plenty of conflicting and polarised WP:RSOPINION. I am continually arguing for WP:BALANCE, and I simply don't think that taking a highly questionable interpretation of modern insults projected backwards to the 70s gives a useful timeline of gender-critical feminist history when the term was coined in this context in 2013. Void if removed ( talk) 23:18, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
majority of authors were asked to revise their entries at least once. This work very much appears to be a reputable work, published by a mainstream academic publisher, with a high level of editorial oversight. It appears to meet all of our criteria to be considered a high quality reliable source, albeit a tertiary source.
when primary or secondary sources contradict each other, as well as providing
broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources. However Wikipedia articles are primarily based on material published by reliable secondary sources, so we may wish to support the citations to the encyclopedia with other relevant secondary sources. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 18:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
what is though is whether it adheres to scholarly norms for such publications because it is being cited as if it is, and by my reading they don'tIf you have a copy of the encyclopedia, then I would direct you to the Background of the Encyclopedia section on page xxvi. That section clearly states, as I explained in my last reply, that there was strong editorial oversight from an editorial team, with contributors being asked to revise their submissions as and when appropriate. This appears to be no different a process than any other SAGE Encyclopedia that I'm familiar with.
I think this is a strong and unverifiable claim that needs independent corroboration to appear in wikivoiceAgain, you're misunderstanding WP:V. However, could you clarify which claim are you talking about? Sideswipe9th ( talk) 00:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
she was accepted and served until late 1972 when accusations of sexual harassment from former friend, lesbian separatist, and feminist activist, Bev Jo Von Dohre, led to a decisive vote.. So this source contradicts the sources there.
Anything pre-2013 is already diluting the focus of this page. Anything pre-2008 makes very little senseIt would be a monumental mistake to assume that the activists this article describes only came into existence in the mid-to-late 2000s. We know through academic and tertiary sources that this type of activism has been ongoing since since at least the early 1970s.
Calling lesbian activists in 1973 "TERF activists" makes no sense whatsoever.While it is true that the term TERF was only coined in 2008, the activists for whom that moniker described were clearly active long before that point. Whatever they may have called themselves, or been described as by others, would be of relevance to the terminology section.
So this source contradicts the sources thereNo, it doesn't. The mistake here is that our article on Beth Elliott is unclear as to when the
35 to 28expulsion vote happened. The source in the citation for that sentence doesn't actually state when that vote took place. The Google Books preview for Joanne Meyerowitz' How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the United States implies that the vote took place in 1973, as that vote lead to the split of the Daughters of Bilitis, and it can be inferred that this was prior to April 1973, as that is when the West Coast Lesbian Conference occurred in LA.
TERF activism, says
TERF activists organized to expel Beth Elliott...,
A group of TERF activists calling themselves the Gutter Dykes physically attacked...,
TERF activists attempted to stop Rivera from speaking at the Christopher Street Liberation Day Parade,
TERF activists had long been opposed to Sandy Stone... A TERF organization named The Gorgons...,
Janice Raymond published what has become the manual for TERF advocacy, the book The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male.,
In 1980, the congressionally mandated National Center for Health Care Technology (NCHCT) contracted Raymond to research the ethical nature of trans health care.
While TERF, as a lexical unit, can carry unflattering overtones in the same way that bigot, misogynist, or racist might, it nonetheless constructs a much-needed way to disentangle the sometimes subjugative, violent, and even murderous anti-trans behavior and rhetoric of TERF activism from radical feminism itself
While the term TERF is critiqued as being antagonistic, it nonetheless fills a discursive void in that it concisely assigns a lexical identity to a set of ideas pioneered by the TERF movement, regardless of who makes use of these arguments. In this way, TERF can be used both to identify a specific morality-driven rhetorical tradition and to distinguish it from trans-inclusive traditions and movements.
Moreover, TERF is critiqued because its use is sometimes expanded, especially on social media sites, to refer to those who promote a TERF-style sex essentialist discourse, even if the anti-trans activist may not self-identify as being any type of feminist.
Some activists and academics do not use TERF, as they wish to avoid the possibility of a controversy that would detract from their arguments.
Also more generally: a person whose views on gender identity are (or are considered) hostile to transgender people, or who opposes social and political policies designed to be inclusive of transgender people.
its use is sometimes expanded, especially on social media sites, to refer to those who promote a TERF-style sex essentialist discourse, even if the anti-trans activist may not self-identify as being any type of feminist
How about amending the wording to: … examined what she considered to be the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes…
? (proposed addition in bold)
Sweet6970 (
talk)
20:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I've noticed that there are persistent disputes over what exactly this article covers (like if it covers anything before 2013/2008, and if it should include sources about "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" or exclusively sources about "gender-critical feminism"). Should there be an RFC to settle this issue once and for all? PBZE ( talk) 01:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
TERF ideology is singularly focused on marginalizing and demonizing trans women
only if the belief involves a very grave violation of the rights of others, tantamount to the destruction of those rights, would it be one that was not worthy of respect in a democratic society ... The EAT in Forstater thus concluded that it would only be “in extremely limited circumstances in which a belief would be considered so beyond the pale” that it would not qualify for any protection under article 9 ECHR. ...
In our judgment, it is important that in applying Grainger V, Tribunals bear in mind that it is only those beliefs that would be an affront to Convention principles in a manner akin to that of pursuing totalitarianism, or advocating Nazism, or espousing violence and hatred in the gravest of forms, that should be capable of being not worthy of respect in a democratic society. Beliefs that are offensive, shocking or even disturbing to others, and which fall into the less grave forms of hate speech would not be excluded from the protection.
pursing totalitarianism, or advocating Nazism, or espousing violence and hatred in the gravest of formswould not be "worthy of respect in a democratic society". Not the highest of bars and certainly not a rebuttal of @ Amanda A. Brant's statement. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 18:22, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Thurlow, Claire (2022). "From TERF to gender critical: A telling genealogy?". Sexualities. doi: 10.1177/13634607221107827. S2CID 252662057.), would not only be artifical, but completely absurd and impossible given how this topic is treated by sources: In the decade prior to 2020 there is a large body of academic papers discussing trans-exclusionary radical feminism as an ideology or movement and hardly any mention of the term "gender-critical feminism". Then, as sources note, "gender-critical feminism" appears as a new "self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others" (
Grinspan, Mauro Cabral; Eloit, Ilana; Paternotte, David; Verloo, Mieke (2023). "Exploring TERFnesses". Journal of Diversity and Gender Studies. 10 (2). doi: 10.21825/digest.90008.). Gender-critical feminism is simply a new term for what was pretty much universally labelled TERF before 2020, and this movement or ideology didn't come into existence in 2020, but has a much longer history. If, say, Bill Clinton changed his name to Rob Johnson, we wouldn't omit his entire biography before the name change. And there are many ideologies, movements and numerous other concepts, from fruits to humans, that have had more than one name. -- Amanda A. Brant ( talk) 11:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The topic of this article is the ideology or movement known variously in reliable sources as gender-critical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "GC", "GC feminism) or trans-exclusionary radical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "TERF ideology", "TERFism" and similar expressions). The two main titles are equivalent. The article was split off from the article Feminist views on transgender topics where the corresponding section is titled "Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism"-- Amanda A. Brant ( talk) 19:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 |
@ Amanda A. Brant, where is the consensus for including the current hatnote with its current wording? I see a discussion on the target page here: Talk:Anti-gender movement#Misleading hatnote, which doesn’t look like consensus to me.
Why do we have this hatnote at all? The
guidance says Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.
. This article has a pretty specific title. Is there really a reasonable possibility that the reader intended to arrive at the other article?
Barnards.tar.gz ( talk) 08:12, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
Ignoring the target article and sources for now
broader movement, I would say
broader anti-trans movementor
broader anti-gender movementto make it clear we are not referring to feminism in general. Loki ( talk) 23:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
the conservative or religious movement. Sweet6970 ( talk) 15:14, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
Mention other topics and articles only if there is a reasonable possibility of a reader arriving at the article either by mistake or with another topic in mind.
I've reworded the hatnote to say "the conservative or religious movement" rather than "the broader movement" as proposed above. The new text is objectively accurate and mirrors the note on the linked page back to this one. The old text is unsupported by reliable sources and clearly does not have consensus support here. Anyone restoring the old text would need strong sources that the entire GCF movement is actually a sub-movement of the "broader" religious one, which is daft. -- Colin° Talk 08:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
[...] and that they 'argue that such developments result from what they call 'gender ideology" (Pearce et al. 2020, p. 681). The authors then go on to identify the term 'gender ideology' as originating 'in anti-feminist and anti-trans discourses among right-wing Christians, with the Catholic Church acting as a major nucleating agent' (p. 681). They write that this term has been 'increasingly adopted by far-right organizations and politicians', who 'position gender egalitarianism, sexual liberation and LGBTQ+ rights as an attack on traditional values by 'global elites" (p. 681). It is not uncommon for detractors to link gender-critical feminism to conservative groups, although the most common form is to simply suggest 'alliances', exploiting left ideological purity in order to discredit gender-critical feminists. [...] But whether or not the authors give a fair reconstruction of the history of 'gender ideology', it is much more common for gender-critical feminists to refer to gender identity ideology, specifically picking out the worldview of those who advocate for the replacement of sex with gender identity.
it has become a rather broad, vague term that may encompass a range of rather different beliefs
even their term for themselves ("gender critical") seems clearly based on anti-gender
The contemporary trans rights movement emerged in the early 1990s on both sides of the Atlantic through a blend of legal activism and academic theorisation. The present movement is distinguished by a belief system we will call here 'gender identity ideology' or 'trans ideology,' the core claim of which is that being a man or a woman is a matter of gender identity rather than biological sex.
Radical materialist feminists, by contrast, retain second-wave feminism's distinction between the material reality of sex and the cultural construction of gender. We argue that women's subjugation by the social norms and cultural values of patriarchal gender is a historical development which functions by converting women's reproductive capacities and domestic labour into an appropriable resource.
In that book I noted that this movement for sex-based rights, popularly known as gender-critical feminism, has a disagreement with mainstream or socially dominant conceptions of feminism in multiple areas, including about prostitution and pornography, about transgender issues, and about intersectionality. One of my arguments in that book was that while gender-critical feminism is ceaselessly positioned by its detractors as being about trans issues — indeed, as being essentially `anti-trans' — gender-critical feminism's disagreement with gender identity activism (the activism of some members of the trans community and their allies) is actually just an implication of its core commitments to a sex-based feminism, and not its central preoccupation.
This discussion should be of interest to radical and gender-critical feminists (and their allies) committed to gender abolitionism
The gender abolition pathway comes with costs for one final social group: those social conservatives who think that conformity to gender norms is morally good, and that the gender roles that result from conformity to gender norms structure society in a positive and meaningful way.
The first classic move MacKinnon makes against gender-critical feminists turns on conflating gender-critical feminism with gender conservatism, positioning us as anti-feminist conservatives in feminist drag.
MacKinnon likewise declares that “the feminist anti-transgender position is built on…the notion that gender is biologically based”, without evidence. Such evidence is perhaps superfluous, given that the tropes conflating gender criticism with gender conservatism are by now so well-worn they have accrued the patina of truthiness.
MacKinnon misrepresents the gender-critical position by equating it with gender conservatism
Void if removed ( talk) 16:59, 14 November 2023 (UTC)no matter how often gender-critical feminists assert that we don’t believe that sex determines gender, both constructivist academics and trans activists keep insisting that we are “essentialist” in the “bad political sense” and obdurately conflating our position with gender conservatism.
the related conservative movement? Loki ( talk) 21:54, 13 November 2023 (UTC)
"believing that people can be any sex they want to be". When many people hear that, their first thoughts are that being trans isn't a lifestyle choice, so he's talking out of his arse. And the second thought would be not to believe another word they say on the topic. If we make that mistake on Wikipedia, in our hatnote or lead especially, then we just alienate the readers folk here want to convinced of the facts.
The word terf is negative because it's critical of something (in this case transphobia). It shouldn't be listed as derogation. Lados75 ( talk) 15:44, 21 November 2023 (UTC)
quite a gap. Dictionaries often don't define long phrases but I have no doubt it'd be considered derogatory as well, for the same reason that calling someone a transphobe is derogatory. A TERF is a kind of transphobe, so no kidding it's derogatory. Loki ( talk) 02:02, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Given this page is a mish mash of different things, I suggest creating dedicated section titled "Gender Critical Views".
I suggest the page should first and foremost be about gender critical feminism, and that all sources that do not specifically refer to gender critical feminism, but are instead about far more broadly construed "views" or "movements" or "narratives", be moved to this section, and subsections within it. I think eventually this will take up at least half the article.
This would essentially split the article in two. Then, if that works and helps clarify the distinctions and divisions, consider separating into two articles. Void if removed ( talk) 12:04, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
Several commentators have described the level of transphobia in British society in general (including the negative coverage of trans-related issues in the media) and the support for trans-exclusionary radical feminism (TERF) in particular as unusual compared to other Western countries, and the discourse on transgender-related issues in the United Kingdom has been called a "TERF war".
Anti-gender rhetoric has seen increasing circulation in trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF) discourse since 2016.
The organization has been described as anti-trans, anti-gender, trans-exclusionary, trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF), and as a hate group, and in several countries the group has been linked to the far right.
Raymond and other cultural feminists like Mary Daly argue that a "she-male" or "male-to-constructed female" is still male and constitutes a patriarchal attack by males upon the female essence. This is often considered to be part of trans-exclusionary radical feminist (TERF) ideology.
Have a read of our articles about the people you would label TERFs. Wikipedia never ever calls them TERFs, though it may note that some people have called them that. Articles about people. You know, biographies. None of the articles you list are biographies or actually call someone a TERF. You know, like "Alice Smith is a writer, singer and TERF..." Oh, and the first four links Void gives are all made by the same person, Amanda, so reflects their preferred choice of term, which is how Wikipedia is made and fine but entirely unconvincing that this is any kind of consensus. -- Colin° Talk 14:39, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
I don't know how many times I've said that it is allowed for our sources, even our best ones, to be biased, to use polemic tone, to be advocacy, even to hate. That doesn't stop them being "reliable sources" but it does stop them being impartial ones.
Impartial sources like the best news reporting from Reuters or PA or BBC do not call people TERFs, nor do they bamboozle their readers with historical jargon that is nearly always inaccurate like "trans-exclusionary radical feminists".
Neutral is to call a group of people what they call themselves. In every other sphere of social concerns that is the case.
Since both the radical feminist and gender critical traditions have a history of strong trans support and advocacy, the use of TERF, especially within-- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 10:34, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
the context of social media, serves as an important rhetorical intervention against the effort by anti-trans sex essentialist activists to colonize “radical feminist” and “gender critical” identities. While the term TERF is critiqued as being antagonistic, it nonetheless fills a discursive void in that it concisely assigns a lexical identity to a set of ideas pioneered by the TERF movement, regardless of who makes use of these arguments. In this way, TERF can be used both to identify a specific morality-driven rhe- torical tradition and to distinguish it from trans- inclusive traditions and movements.
Her goal, as she unambiguously stated in her work, was “morally mandating [transsexualism] out of existence” (p. 178). It is this shared vision of morality that discursively binds TERFs to the ideological right.
I contend that the problem of transsexualism would best be served by morally mandating it out of existence. Does a moral mandate, however, necessitate that transsexualism be legally mandated out of existence? What is the relationship between law and morality, in the realm of transsexualism? While there are many who feel that morality must be built into law, I believe that the elimination of transsexualism is not best achieved by legislation prohibiting transsexual treatment and surgery but rather by legislation that limits it—and by other legislation that lessens the support given to sex-role stereotyping, which generated the problem to begin with.
Many see a very definite connection between social morality and its preservation in law. They would argue that if there were a broad social consensus about the immorality of transsexual surgery, then the law should incarnate that social morality. Others, of course, would argue that to ground issues of law in the social conscience is not always protective of individual rights and may, in fact, be destructive of those rights. They would say that the law can only legislate against individual rights when they can be shown to be directly harmful to another’s rights. I do not wish to argue either of these positions.
The prevention of transsexual surgery, and the social conditions that generate it, are not achieved by legislation forbidding surgery. In the case of transsexual surgery, the good to be achieved, that is, the integrity of the individual and of the society, does not seem best served by making transsexual surgery illegal. Rather it is more important to regulate, by legal measures, the sexist, social conditions that generate transsexual surgery, and also legally to limit the medical-institutional complex that translates these sexist conditions into the realm of transsexualism. Thus I am advocating a limiting legislative presence, along with First Cause legislation, which, instead of directing legal action to the consequences of a genderdefined society (in this case, to transsexualism), directs action to the social forces and medical institutions that produce the transsexual empire.
Legislation dealing with First Causes would concern itself with the network of sex-role stereotyping that produces the schizoid state of a “female mind in a male body.” The education of children is one case in point here. Images of sex roles continue to be reinforced, at public expense, in school textbooks. The message is that such roles are assigned to male and female bodies in our society.
"community built on androgynous identity will mean the end of transsexuality as we know it [...] as roles disappear, the phenomenon of transsexuality will disappear".
For Raymond, true liberation cannot be secured by any mere blending of sex roles. Rather, it must be secured through a transcendence of sex role altogether (164). This suggests a notion of the self that is prior to sex role or at least a notion of a self that can be freed from the cultural interpretations of sex. Raymond's solution to “the problem” of transsexuality which she sees as promoting the surgical violation of bodily integrity, is to “morally mandate it out of existence” (178) by working against sex role oppression through education and consciousness raising (178–185).
Hungerford promoted the term as a euphemism for beliefs, rhetoric, and behavior that were critical of trans people. [...] Hungerford’s rhetorical work was aimed at languaging a sex essentialist anti-trans ideology as feminism
In the international academic community, it's a small and therefore fringe groupReally? Because there is plenty of what you could call "gender-critical feminism" in academia from Latin America, Russia, and the rest of non-Anglophone Europe. See, e.g., La coeducación secuestrada: Crítica feminista a la penetración de las ideas transgeneristas en la educación (Silvia Carrasco et al, Spain), Le llaman feminismo y no lo es. Cuestiones De género: De La Igualdad Y La Diferencia ( Alicia Miyares Fernández, Spain), the high regard for Sheila Jeffreys among some Brazilian feminists, the descriptions of the Latin lesbian feminist community by Dominican Ochy Curiel in Sobre el VI Encuentro Lésbico Feminista Latinoamericano y la no inclusión de trans, and many others. It's not just British "Raymondists" engaging in gender-critical rhetoric. JoelleJay ( talk) 01:43, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
Are we really arguing over whether it's acceptable for us to use the term "TERF" in wikivoice?!
It looks like the reply function misplaced my comment. Anyway, I still agree with Colin and Void that it's inappropriate to use activist works to define in wikivoice the ideological bounds of a term/group the activists oppose, especially when it seems there is some conflation by them of GCF as an academic niche that extends well beyond trans identity vs as a modern euphemism for TERF. JoelleJay ( talk) 05:58, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
Wikipedia never ever calls them TERFs, though it may note that some people have called them that. It certainly doesn't claim they follow "TERFism" or "TERF ideology".It's sad that such policy prevails in English Wikipedia.
extends well beyond trans identityor indeed is substantially different from trans-exclusionary feminism. At most, the difference is that it's not necessarily "radical".) Loki ( talk) 07:45, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
feminist anti-transgender manifesto influential within and outside feminist movements, that
trans exclusion has come to characterize “second-wave” 1970s feminism, and that
[l]iteratures grounded in [1990s postructural feminism, in particular works of Judith Butler] discuss trans people and trans bodies in order to argue that neither gender nor “biological sex” exist outside of cultural contexts or understandings and the systems of knowledge that produce them. This is a significant departure from trans exclusionary radical feminism. The framing implies that erasing trans people was a ubiquitous conscious effort and that the "transgender question" is ultimately relevant to and opined upon by all feminist scholarship from the 1970s on. This is a fine resource for topics discussing the perspective of transgender studies, but it is not a wikivoice-acceptable source for an overview of "feminism" and especially not for stating what a particular feminist ideology is. JoelleJay ( talk) 20:14, 3 December 2023 (UTC)
I think it is time to put this section to bed. People have made their views clear and the policy requirements on us as editors are clear. Have editors got actual serious changes-to-the article proposals to make? Make your suggestions then. -- Colin° Talk 08:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)
In the chapter, History, there's some space between the last paragraph and the start of another chapter, Around the World. Since I used the legacy theme, I thought I could've been an issue of said theme alone, but after switching to the default theme, same problem. I wanted to make a quick minor edit, but considering my account doesn't met the requirements, I thought making a comment here would help. The second block seems to work when previewing it, where the first block shows what the issue is.
In her own 1987 book ''[[Gyn/Ecology]]'', [[Mary Daly]], who had served as Raymond's thesis supervisor,<ref>{{Cite web|title=Feminist theologian Mary Daly dies|url=https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|access-date=3 July 2020|website=The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc.|language=en|archive-date=8 March 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308171932/https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|url-status=live}}</ref> argued that as sex reassignment surgery cannot reproduce female chromosomes or a female life history, it could "not produce women".<ref>Daly, Mary, ''Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism'' (Boston, Mass.: Beacon Press, pbk. [1st printing? printing of [19]90?] 1978 & 1990 (prob. all content except ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1978 & prob. ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1990) ({{ISBN|0-8070-1413-3}})).</ref> [[Sheila Jeffreys]] and [[Germaine Greer]] have made similar remarks.<ref name = BINDEL2>{{cite news | last= Bindel | first= Julie | author-link= Julie Bindel | title= The ugly side of beauty | work= [[The Guardian]] | date= 2 July 2005 | url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | access-date= 16 June 2023 | archive-date= 25 February 2021 | archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210225140358/http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | url-status= live }}</ref> In a response to related remarks by [[Elizabeth Grosz]], philosopher [[Eva Simone Hayward|Eva Hayward]] characterized this type of view as telling trans people who have had sex reassignment surgery: "Don't exist."<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Hayward |first1=Eva S. |title=Don't Exist |journal=[[Transgender Studies Quarterly]] |date=2017 |volume=4 |issue=2 |pages=191–194|doi=10.1215/23289252-3814985 }}</ref>
== Around the world ==
=== United Kingdom ===
<!-- More detail and more sources about the early history would be nice -->
In her own 1987 book ''[[Gyn/Ecology]]'', [[Mary Daly]], who had served as Raymond's thesis supervisor,<ref>{{Cite web|title=Feminist theologian Mary Daly dies|url=https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|access-date=3 July 2020|website=The Bay Area Reporter / B.A.R. Inc.|language=en|archive-date=8 March 2021|archive-url=https://web.archive.org/web/20210308171932/https://www.ebar.com/news///240420|url-status=live}}</ref> argued that as sex reassignment surgery cannot reproduce female chromosomes or a female life history, it could "not produce women".<ref>Daly, Mary, ''Gyn/Ecology: The Metaethics of Radical Feminism'' (Boston, Mass.: Beacon Press, pbk. [1st printing? printing of [19]90?] 1978 & 1990 (prob. all content except ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1978 & prob. ''New Intergalactic Introduction'' 1990) ({{ISBN|0-8070-1413-3}})).</ref> [[Sheila Jeffreys]] and [[Germaine Greer]] have made similar remarks.<ref name = BINDEL2>{{cite news | last= Bindel | first= Julie | author-link= Julie Bindel | title= The ugly side of beauty | work= [[The Guardian]] | date= 2 July 2005 | url= https://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | access-date= 16 June 2023 | archive-date= 25 February 2021 | archive-url= https://web.archive.org/web/20210225140358/http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/jul/02/gender.politicsphilosophyandsociety | url-status= live }}</ref> In a response to related remarks by [[Elizabeth Grosz]], philosopher [[Eva Simone Hayward|Eva Hayward]] characterized this type of view as telling trans people who have had sex reassignment surgery: "Don't exist."<ref>{{cite journal |last1=Hayward |first1=Eva S. |title=Don't Exist |journal=[[Transgender Studies Quarterly]] |date=2017 |volume=4 |issue=2 |pages=191–194|doi=10.1215/23289252-3814985 }}</ref>
== Around the world ==
=== United Kingdom ===
<!-- More detail and more sources about the early history would be nice -->
Considering the nature of this page, I full-heartily hope this isn't inappropriate to do. Danny, JumboSizedFish ( talk) 22:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Pinging all involved @ LokiTheLiar: @ XTheBedrockX: @ Void if removed: @ Snokalok:. I removed the lede image because it isn't a common symbol used by gender-critical feminism and instead is a low-quality text poster, it was readded by Void if Removed, removed for lack of rational, and then readded by me then reverted.
If we look at other articles say capitalism, socialism, authoritarianism they lack any lede images instead showing a sidebar of with a common symbol used by their movement/ideology. They do not have a random propaganda poster explaining their worldview, it would take away from those articles. If the lede image is going to be present it should be consistent with other lede images of articles and be symbol common of gender-critical feminism, say a commonly used flag. The lede image in it's current state does not represent the article, nor does it fit the requirements of WP:LEDEIMAGE.
Lead images should be natural and appropriate representations of the topic; they should not only illustrate the topic specifically, but also be the type of image used for similar purposes in high-quality reference works, and therefore what our readers will expect to see. Lead images are not required, and not having a lead image may be the best solution if there is no easy representation of the topic.
The current image does not illustrate the topic anymore then text in the article already does but in WikiVoice, it's not a high or exceptional image, and it also does not show the the reader to get any information, or otherwise. Des Vallee ( talk) 19:26, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
Can anyone help me dig up some original sources of GC’s saying things about socialization? I’m trying as I can, but it’s an experience reminiscent of when I had to search for anti-vaxx views online for a school project in 2015 - the actual views are hard to find, and the criticism of them is much more common. As such, if anyone has any original sources, it’d help. Snokalok ( talk) 14:36, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
Is it worth adding yesterday's judgment against Westminster Council and Social Work England? Seems to be notable.
More here:
https://unherd.com/thepost/victory-for-social-worker-harassed-over-gender-critical-beliefs/
https://www.localgov.co.uk/Tribunal-rules-against-council-in-discrimination-case-/58630
https://www.personneltoday.com/hr/gender-critical-rachel-meade-westminster-city-council-social-work-england/ Void if removed ( talk) 14:37, 10 January 2024 (UTC)
The opinions expressed by the Claimant could not sensibly be viewed as being transphobic when properly considered in their full context from an objective perspective
One of the front-lines of dispute is about whether GCFs should be characterised as intrinsically transphobic, hateful or akin to racists. Where these concepts intersect with laws, a judge is very much a subject matter expert.
It is the first case of its kind where an employer and regulator have both been found liable for discrimination in relation to gender-critical beliefs, which Ms Meade described as the thought that “there are two sexes, male and female” and “that a person cannot change their sex”.
were of a nature that they aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms of others contrary to Article 17(para 194). In this instance, the tribunal found that the manifestations of Meade's beliefs did not rise to the level specified in para 194. There is also a lot of detail from paragraphs 205 to 266 detailing where the employer (first respondent) and complainant against Meade (second respondent) both were correct (eg, para 207 and 235 found that Meade's initial suspension on 22 July 2021 did not amount to discrimination for her beliefs) and incorrect (eg para 211 where the employer did not
clearly identify the posts which they are considered went beyond a manifestation of the Claimant’s protected beliefs and why they considered this to be the caseand para 233 where it was only the actions taken after 6 November 2021 which the tribunal found discriminatory).
Gender-critical feminists believe sex is biological and cannot be changed, and disagree with trans rights activists who say gender identity should be given priority in terms of law-making and policy. Clashes in workplaces – in some cases with those who regard the focus on biological sex as transphobic – have led to a string of employment tribunals.
Another tribunal result is in: https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/65ae82d58bbe95000e5eb1f7/Ms_J_Pheonix_v_The_Open_University_3322700.2021___other_FMH_Reserved_Judgment.pdf *Dan T.* ( talk) 22:20, 22 January 2024 (UTC)
In a judgment published on Monday, the tribunal found that Prof Louise Westmarland, head of discipline in social policy and criminology at the OU, made the “racist uncle” comment, which amounted to harassment…..and
Prof Westmarland knew that likening the claimant to a racist was upsetting for the claimant. We conclude that its purpose was to violate the claimant’s dignity because inherent in the comment is an insult of being put in the same category as racists”.
The judgment said: “We find that the claimant was not provided with effective protection from the effects of the launch of the GCRN. We find that the respondent did not provide the claimant protection particularly in the form of asking staff and students not to launch campaigns to deplatform the GCRN, or make calls to remove support for the claimant’s gender critical research, or use social media to label the claimant transphobic or TERF (trans-exclusionary radical feminist).
Saying that it is "known to its opponents as..." is plainly non-neutral wording and is completely unacceptable in the lead sentence. The given sources do not describe it that way; many of them use it as if it is a neutral descriptor and the proper terminology. Characterizing the authors as opponents is editorializing on our part. Furthermore, the framing implies that "gender critical" is the 'real', neutral term, which every source for that sentence contradicts - all of them present it as a self-description and use quotes surrounding it to make it clear it is a non-neutral term. If we were to qualify TERF with "...known to its opponents...", we would have to insert "Self-described" before "gender-critical", otherwise we'd be misusing the sources. -- Aquillion ( talk) 09:00, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
The acronym TERF, which means Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminism, was coined by the Australian blogger Viv Smythe in 2008 to refer to a specific form of feminist hostility towards trans issues.
we see the expression ‘gender-critical feminism’ – a self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others – as problematic because it serves specific actors to ‘rebrand’ their anti-trans activism and to legitimise their own positions by presenting them as more moderate (Thurlow, 2022) or as doing critical work (Ahmed, 2021). While several authors in this special issue have suggested new expressions to address this phenomenon, we prefer to use the term TERFnesses based on the term TERF, because of its resonance in contemporary debates
The introduction to a recent blatantly hostile source addition ("Exploring TERFnesses") even at one point uses the term "FART". I wonder quite why we're taking such pathetic juvenilia seriously TBH (and this is from a prominent and influential activist and author, not some random nobody), but there we are.
our usage reflects the highest-quality usage, not random blogs or opinion pieces
In the UK trans inclusive and gender critical feminists hold positions that are increasingly polarised. While the latter seek to exclude trans women from the category ‘woman’ and advocate for single sex spaces that would exclude trans women, they argue that the term ‘TERF’ (trans exclusionary radical feminist) is a derogatory slur in part due to its use by opponents on social media, and they prefer the term ‘gender critical’. While ‘TERF’ itself is a contested term and argued not to be a slur by some on the trans inclusive side, I will apply ‘gender critical’ here out of respect for people’s rights to self-define.
In 2008, denigrating the motives of critics of gender identity theory was given a big boost with the invention of a 'TERF'. TERF stands for 'Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist'. It was reportedly coined by American Viv Smythe. In 2008 Smythe was running a feminist blog. In a post, she promoted the Michigan Womyn's Musical Festival, also known as Michfest. When founded in 1976, Michfest had been conceived by its radical feminist organisers as for females only - or, as organisers named them, 'Womyn-born-womyn'. There was a heavy lesbian presence, in the traditional same-sex sense, amongst attendees. Latterly, the festival had become controversial for its explicit exclusion of trans women from the event. (Indeed, eventually Michfest closed in 2015, partly due to this controversy.) Smythe was quickly taken to task by blog readers for her promotion of Michfest, and in the course of her subsequent public apology, coined the acronym TERF. She wrote, of her promise not to promote any trans-exclusionary feminist event' in future: 'I am aware that this decision is likely to affront some trans-exclusionary radical feminists (TERFs).'n The term TERF rapidly took off, as memorable acronyms often do - perhaps helped by its ugly phonetics and capacity to be easily barked out as an insult or threat. Though in Smythe's original construction, TERFs were, by definition, feminists, later popular usage of the term widened to refer to any person at all who had, for whatever reason, an even mildly critical perspective on the bundle of ideas that constitutes gender identity theory. Indeed, trans women and trans men themselves came to be called TERFs, whenever they worried that gender identity alone was not what made you a woman or man.
Despite its alleged introduction as a neutral acronym for a version of radical feminism, in its current usage the term `TERF' has evolved so that it has become derogatory in at least its implicature if not its content. The term is widely used to apply to those who hold that the sex category 'female' has social and political relevance in certain contexts regardless "of gender identity. The term is almost exclusively used in derogatory and dehumanizing ways, and often accompanied by violent imagery, by those who are critical of people who take such a view. On seven different accounts of slurs, TERF appears to meet the criterion for counting as a slur.
TERF is an acronym meaning “trans-exclusionary radical feminist.” While the term has become controversial over time, especially with its often hateful deployment on social media, it originally described a subgroup of feminists who believe that the interests of cisgender women (those who are born with vaginas) don’t necessarily intersect with those of transgender women (primarily those born with penises). [...] TERF “is widely used across online platforms as a way to denigrate and dismiss the women (and some men) who disagree with the dominant narrative on trans issues,” the scholars wrote.
Void if removed ( talk) 23:55, 13 January 2024 (UTC)The acronym has become so widely shared in social media activism and mainstream journalism that it has become almost a void, as it is applied to anyone expressing transphobic, prejudiced, bigoted or otherwise exclusionary views about trans men, trans women and all transgender and trans people. It is applied to those who are not feminist activists and would never identify themselves as feminists; it is put onto those who may be feminists but are certainly not Radical Feminists; it has become a shorthand for transphobic, and mostly applied to women
We weighed it up, and because of the intentions of the coiner and the fact that there is a little bit more nuance behind its usage – it’s not always just a straight-out insult – we took the approach that we would explain that in a note. We felt it was a bit more nuanced than just slapping on derogatory or chiefly derogatory[3]
"Transgender advocates say that gender-critical feminism is not a neutral term, and argue the importance of using trans-exclusionary feminism or trans-exclusionary radical feminism instead. The latter is commonly abbreviated as TERF, but this form has become contentious and is typically considered derogatory."Void if removed ( talk) 11:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
Though it was created as a deliberately neutral descriptor, "TERF" is now typically considered derogatory."
PBZE ( talk) 19:10, 13 January 2024 (UTC)Claire Thurlow noted that since the 2010s, there has been a shift in language from "TERF" to "gender critical feminism," which she described as " dog-whistle politics whereby the phrases act as a coded message of anti-transness to those initiated." Mauro Cabral Grinspan, Ilana Eloit, David Paternotte and Mieke Verloo argued that "we see the expression ‘gender-critical feminism’ – a self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others – as problematic because it serves specific actors to ‘rebrand’ their anti-trans activism and to legitimise their own positions."
@
Sweet6970, you just
reverted my recent addition to history stating delete material which is not about g-c feminism – see WP:COATRACK
.
The material was added from the SAGE Enclyopedia of Trans Studies' TERF entry, specifically it's section TERF activism
which says The following is a timeline of TERF activism that proved structurally or culturally significant.
And before the "TERF doesn't mean GC" argument gets pulled, the source is 110% explicit that Since Hungerford’s 2013 announcement, gender critical and radical feminist are the primary self-identities used by TERFs when publicly discussing the equality of trans people.
It is obviously about g-c feminism
, so please self-revert.
Relatedly, I believe you should self-revert
this edit, where you changed Janice Raymond's The Transsexual Empire, published in 1979, purported to examine the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes
to ...examined the role...
You're an experienced editor so I feel weird having to point out 1) that is absolutely not a claim that should go in wikivoice without reliable secondary sources agreeing and 2) there are no reliable secondary sources agreeing, it's cited to Raymond herself.
Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ (
talk)
17:52, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
TERF activism that proved structurally or culturally significant. Are you saying the gender-critical movement sprang into existence in 2013? You said the
phenomenon of "gender-critical feminism" which emerged some 40 years later, about 5 years after TERF was coined- but that is not what the sources say at all. The sources say they're different names, not different concepts. This article already says that even...
TERF activismis actually
a timeline of trans history.?
the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypesis absolutely not appropriate for wikivoice without secondary sourcing (it is her opinion trans identities do that, not a fact) and 2) there isn't secondary sourcing. Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 19:18, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
a timeline of trans history
my point about Janice Raymond still stands
Popularized in 2008 by an online cisgender feminist community, TERF is an acronym for trans-exclusionary radical feminist. The community used the term to refer to the sex essentialist feminists who were flooding into their discussion space. TERFs asserted that “sex” was reducible to specific body attributes or to early socialization and therefore saw trans women as men and sought to remove them from “women’s spaces” and the lesbian feminist movement.
The linguistic and cultural utility of TERF becomes apparent when one considers the reality that practically every contemporary anti-trans sex essentialist argument was originally asserted in Janice Raymond’s 1979 TERF classic, The Transsexual Empire.
TERFis an acronym for
transgender exclusionary radical feminist, who sources agree prefer the term
gender criticalfor themselves. Don't mistake a name for the emergence of whole new branch of feminism. Simple yes/no question: is the source referring to radical feminists who believed that trans women should be excluded from women's spaces? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 22:16, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
Sources are supposed to be WP:VERIFIABLEThat is not how WP:V works or what it means. The sources that we use on enwiki are not beholden to enwiki's policies, and there is no requirement in either WP:V or WP:RS that our sources "show their working". What V actually means is the information, whether it be facts, allegations, quotations, etc., that we include in our articles is verifiable to what one or more reliable sources state about the topic.
Popularized in 2008 by an online cisgender feminist communityappears on page 822. The text beginning
The linguistic and cultural utility of TERFis on page 825. With those page numbers, and the rest of the citation information (ie publication name, publisher, author, ISBN, etc), it is possible for any reader or editor with access to the source to verify that the source states that information. That is where the requirements of WP:V end.
There are no named individuals with a recognisable ideology, simply "TERF activists"True, but not unusual given the nature of the source being used, nor the nature of the content. The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies is a tertiary source. It is briefly summarising and contextualising information already present in multiple other secondary and primary sources. For example, the expulsion of Beth Elliott from the Daughters of Bilitis and later harassment and attack of Elliott at the April 1973 West Coast Lesbian Conference is verifiable to a large array of secondary sources over on Elliott's article in the Daughters of Bilitis and West Coast Lesbian Conference sections. There's no reason why we could also bring those sources across here to further support what the tertiary source has stated. However even reliable secondary sources like Meyerowitz where she wrote about the West Coast Lesbian Conference don't name all of the individual activists, because several of the incidents involve large groups of people. Meyerowitz does however name one radfem who used their keynote speech at the conference to denounce and attack Elliott, Robin Morgan. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 17:41, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
about incidents in trans historyand are out of scope of this article? Otherwise I don't find your objection per COATRACK to be convincing. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 21:13, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
the point is that the material is not about g-c feminismExcept that it is? I've got a copy of that encyclopaedia in front of me, and the content that YFNS added is explicitly in a section about
structurally or culturally significantTERF activism, covering activities from 1973 through to 2019. Two pages after this in the same chapter details the transition in branding (for lack of a better term) by the activists who are the subject of this article from TERF to gender-critical. Though the names have changed over time, they are still fundamentally the same group of activists or feminists, whether they are called gender-critical, TERF, or some other term. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 23:32, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
This article is about a branch of feminism. It is not about trans people. So (dubious) anecdotes about trans people have no place here.They aren't anecdotes about trans people. They are early instances of what we would now call TERF or gender-criticial activism against trans people, in this case three trans women, to try and prevent them from participating in events (Elliott at the West Coast Lesbian Conference and Rivera at the Christopher Street Liberation Day rally), groups (Elliot with the Daughters of Bilitis), or their work (Stone at Olivia Records). The trans women are the targets of the activism, not the perpetrators of it. Both the SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies (a tertiary source), and multiple secondary sources (like Meyerowitz and those in the biographical articles of the three subjects) cover it in the context of the topic of this article. It is part of the history of this type of feminism, in the same manner that the suffragette bombing and arson campaign in the UK is an important part of the overall history of the UK suffragette movement.
Your argument about my analogy demonstrates that I am correct – there is nothing about Disraeli, Baldwin, or Macmillan in the article about Socialism.I think you have misunderstood what I said. Socialism as a topic on enwiki is covered in multiple related articles. As one of several prominent political philosophies there is a lot to write about it, much more than can be summarised in any one article. As a result, the content is split over multiple articles all of which are linked within the Socialism sidebar template. Disraeli and the rest are not mentioned in main socialism article, because that is a high level overview of the breadth of the entire topic. They are however mentioned on more specialised articles within the same series, because those specialised articles go into the depth of the topic.
the inclusion of a wide range of contributors, including professionals in the field, academics, activists, and writers.
The contributors are a mix of academics[...]; independent scholars; journalists; and non-academics
In addition to the standard practice of including the work of university-affiliated researchers, the Encyclopedia features entries from independent scholars writing outside the context of academia; practitioners working directly with trans client populations; activists and organizers; and leaders of trans-led and trans-supportive organizations.
trans exclusionary radical feministor just the acronym
TERF?
PARTISAN activist?
stated WP:POV? Your Friendly Neighborhood Sociologist ⚧ Ⓐ ( talk) 15:27, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The TransAdvocate aims to improve the lives of transgender people through investigative news and nuanced commentary from a boots-on-the-ground trans advocate perspective.
The SAGE Encyclopedia of Trans Studies centers trans people and experiences
Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject.. This is fine as long as we accept that this is a viewpoint, and not definitive, and thereby exclude other viewpoints. There is a difference between two irreconcilable positions on much of this topic, and we're relying on plenty of conflicting and polarised WP:RSOPINION. I am continually arguing for WP:BALANCE, and I simply don't think that taking a highly questionable interpretation of modern insults projected backwards to the 70s gives a useful timeline of gender-critical feminist history when the term was coined in this context in 2013. Void if removed ( talk) 23:18, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
majority of authors were asked to revise their entries at least once. This work very much appears to be a reputable work, published by a mainstream academic publisher, with a high level of editorial oversight. It appears to meet all of our criteria to be considered a high quality reliable source, albeit a tertiary source.
when primary or secondary sources contradict each other, as well as providing
broad summaries of topics that involve many primary and secondary sources. However Wikipedia articles are primarily based on material published by reliable secondary sources, so we may wish to support the citations to the encyclopedia with other relevant secondary sources. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 18:08, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
what is though is whether it adheres to scholarly norms for such publications because it is being cited as if it is, and by my reading they don'tIf you have a copy of the encyclopedia, then I would direct you to the Background of the Encyclopedia section on page xxvi. That section clearly states, as I explained in my last reply, that there was strong editorial oversight from an editorial team, with contributors being asked to revise their submissions as and when appropriate. This appears to be no different a process than any other SAGE Encyclopedia that I'm familiar with.
I think this is a strong and unverifiable claim that needs independent corroboration to appear in wikivoiceAgain, you're misunderstanding WP:V. However, could you clarify which claim are you talking about? Sideswipe9th ( talk) 00:28, 17 January 2024 (UTC)
she was accepted and served until late 1972 when accusations of sexual harassment from former friend, lesbian separatist, and feminist activist, Bev Jo Von Dohre, led to a decisive vote.. So this source contradicts the sources there.
Anything pre-2013 is already diluting the focus of this page. Anything pre-2008 makes very little senseIt would be a monumental mistake to assume that the activists this article describes only came into existence in the mid-to-late 2000s. We know through academic and tertiary sources that this type of activism has been ongoing since since at least the early 1970s.
Calling lesbian activists in 1973 "TERF activists" makes no sense whatsoever.While it is true that the term TERF was only coined in 2008, the activists for whom that moniker described were clearly active long before that point. Whatever they may have called themselves, or been described as by others, would be of relevance to the terminology section.
So this source contradicts the sources thereNo, it doesn't. The mistake here is that our article on Beth Elliott is unclear as to when the
35 to 28expulsion vote happened. The source in the citation for that sentence doesn't actually state when that vote took place. The Google Books preview for Joanne Meyerowitz' How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the United States implies that the vote took place in 1973, as that vote lead to the split of the Daughters of Bilitis, and it can be inferred that this was prior to April 1973, as that is when the West Coast Lesbian Conference occurred in LA.
TERF activism, says
TERF activists organized to expel Beth Elliott...,
A group of TERF activists calling themselves the Gutter Dykes physically attacked...,
TERF activists attempted to stop Rivera from speaking at the Christopher Street Liberation Day Parade,
TERF activists had long been opposed to Sandy Stone... A TERF organization named The Gorgons...,
Janice Raymond published what has become the manual for TERF advocacy, the book The Transsexual Empire: The Making of the She-Male.,
In 1980, the congressionally mandated National Center for Health Care Technology (NCHCT) contracted Raymond to research the ethical nature of trans health care.
While TERF, as a lexical unit, can carry unflattering overtones in the same way that bigot, misogynist, or racist might, it nonetheless constructs a much-needed way to disentangle the sometimes subjugative, violent, and even murderous anti-trans behavior and rhetoric of TERF activism from radical feminism itself
While the term TERF is critiqued as being antagonistic, it nonetheless fills a discursive void in that it concisely assigns a lexical identity to a set of ideas pioneered by the TERF movement, regardless of who makes use of these arguments. In this way, TERF can be used both to identify a specific morality-driven rhetorical tradition and to distinguish it from trans-inclusive traditions and movements.
Moreover, TERF is critiqued because its use is sometimes expanded, especially on social media sites, to refer to those who promote a TERF-style sex essentialist discourse, even if the anti-trans activist may not self-identify as being any type of feminist.
Some activists and academics do not use TERF, as they wish to avoid the possibility of a controversy that would detract from their arguments.
Also more generally: a person whose views on gender identity are (or are considered) hostile to transgender people, or who opposes social and political policies designed to be inclusive of transgender people.
its use is sometimes expanded, especially on social media sites, to refer to those who promote a TERF-style sex essentialist discourse, even if the anti-trans activist may not self-identify as being any type of feminist
How about amending the wording to: … examined what she considered to be the role of transgender identity in reinforcing traditional gender stereotypes…
? (proposed addition in bold)
Sweet6970 (
talk)
20:41, 14 January 2024 (UTC)
I've noticed that there are persistent disputes over what exactly this article covers (like if it covers anything before 2013/2008, and if it should include sources about "trans-exclusionary radical feminism" or exclusively sources about "gender-critical feminism"). Should there be an RFC to settle this issue once and for all? PBZE ( talk) 01:09, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
TERF ideology is singularly focused on marginalizing and demonizing trans women
only if the belief involves a very grave violation of the rights of others, tantamount to the destruction of those rights, would it be one that was not worthy of respect in a democratic society ... The EAT in Forstater thus concluded that it would only be “in extremely limited circumstances in which a belief would be considered so beyond the pale” that it would not qualify for any protection under article 9 ECHR. ...
In our judgment, it is important that in applying Grainger V, Tribunals bear in mind that it is only those beliefs that would be an affront to Convention principles in a manner akin to that of pursuing totalitarianism, or advocating Nazism, or espousing violence and hatred in the gravest of forms, that should be capable of being not worthy of respect in a democratic society. Beliefs that are offensive, shocking or even disturbing to others, and which fall into the less grave forms of hate speech would not be excluded from the protection.
pursing totalitarianism, or advocating Nazism, or espousing violence and hatred in the gravest of formswould not be "worthy of respect in a democratic society". Not the highest of bars and certainly not a rebuttal of @ Amanda A. Brant's statement. — OwenBlacker (he/him; Talk) 18:22, 15 January 2024 (UTC)
Thurlow, Claire (2022). "From TERF to gender critical: A telling genealogy?". Sexualities. doi: 10.1177/13634607221107827. S2CID 252662057.), would not only be artifical, but completely absurd and impossible given how this topic is treated by sources: In the decade prior to 2020 there is a large body of academic papers discussing trans-exclusionary radical feminism as an ideology or movement and hardly any mention of the term "gender-critical feminism". Then, as sources note, "gender-critical feminism" appears as a new "self-definition by some individuals and groups labelled TERFs by others" (
Grinspan, Mauro Cabral; Eloit, Ilana; Paternotte, David; Verloo, Mieke (2023). "Exploring TERFnesses". Journal of Diversity and Gender Studies. 10 (2). doi: 10.21825/digest.90008.). Gender-critical feminism is simply a new term for what was pretty much universally labelled TERF before 2020, and this movement or ideology didn't come into existence in 2020, but has a much longer history. If, say, Bill Clinton changed his name to Rob Johnson, we wouldn't omit his entire biography before the name change. And there are many ideologies, movements and numerous other concepts, from fruits to humans, that have had more than one name. -- Amanda A. Brant ( talk) 11:47, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
The topic of this article is the ideology or movement known variously in reliable sources as gender-critical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "GC", "GC feminism) or trans-exclusionary radical feminism (including abbreviated forms such as "TERF ideology", "TERFism" and similar expressions). The two main titles are equivalent. The article was split off from the article Feminist views on transgender topics where the corresponding section is titled "Gender-critical feminism and trans-exclusionary radical feminism"-- Amanda A. Brant ( talk) 19:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)