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Two editors are in disagreement about including Christian fundamentalism in the sentence that says the terms far right and extreme right " are commonly used to describe fascist, neo-fascist or other ideologies and organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, or reactionary views." The source, Carlisle's The Encyclopedia of Politics: The Left and the Right, Volume 2: The Right (Sage Publications, 2005). p. 693 was added 5 October 2011 by an editor who is no longer with us. [1] I have no access to the source, does anyone know what it actually says? It seems out of place, because only in the modern U.S. is fundamentalism associated with the Right. In the past, non-conformists and dissenters were typically opposed to the Right, which supported the Established Church. TFD ( talk) 07:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
WP:MOSINTRO (policy) states: "Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text. Exceptions include specific facts such as quotations, examples, birth dates, taxonomic names, case numbers, and titles." " Religious fundamentalism" is significant (as evidenced by the Wikilink to a 21kb article) and cannot be classified with any of the exceptions (quotations, examples, birth dates, taxonomic names, case numbers, and titles). Since it is not discussed or even mentioned in the body of this article, it should not be listed in the lead as a term to describe a far-right group. The citation really doesn't mean squat in the absence of supporting prose further down. Miles has already said that he doesn't want to edit war (but he did anyway), and that he's willing to escalate this if he doesn't get his way. Miles, if you can't convince TFD to agree with you, I suggest you take this to a noticeboard, where you are doing oh-so-well in dispute resolution of late. Roccodrift ( talk) 07:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes editors have trouble even understanding sources that are too academic for them; they mistake careful words for wishy-washy ones, they have difficulty drawing obvious inferences, and so on. Instead of complaining about the audience, it's often best to find sources at their level. When claims of bias are involved, it's also helpful to find a source that's biased against the information it's sharing. It's also important to make sure the source has the journalistic credentials to be reliable.
To that end, here's an article angrily reporting about a study released by West Point's Combating Terrorism Center, which links religious fundamentalism with the far right (in the form of right-wing terrorists). You don't need a college degree to understand it, and it's more than enough to restore the mention of religious fundamentalism in the lede. MilesMoney ( talk) 20:06, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Convoluted?
I think that amply refutes your claim, though this is as much as I feel comfortable copying. Follow the link to read the rest. MilesMoney ( talk) 23:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
For those able to handle academic/military writing, here's something from page 3 of the actual report:
At this point, anyone denying that religious fundamentalism belongs in this article should be relieved from editing Wikipedia on, a permanent basis. MilesMoney ( talk) 23:14, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
I actually looked at the report, so I know it's useful. In particular, it makes it quite clear that religious fundamentalism belongs in the lede. The passage I quoted earlier is direct evidence of this. Also, it's true that the author isn't an undergrad. More to the point, he'd got a PhD in the field and is published extensively by Columbia and Routledge, as well as various periodicals. From this, we can conclude that both Rocco and Arzel failed to do even basic research on this source before dismissing it and have instead objected in bad faith. 01:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Taken under advisement |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Here's the actual sentence, with the debated term in bold.
So the question is whether far-right and extreme right are used to describe organizations/ideologies that feature, among other things, religious fundamentalism. The source I gave you supports precisely this: it states that religious fundamentalism (as well as racism and anti-federalism) are features of far-right organizations.
You mention that this source is focused on America, and that's true, but America is part of the world. Since religious fundamentalism is one of the features found in far-right groups in America, and since America is part of the world, it necessarily follows as a syllogism that religious fundamentalism is one of the features found in far-right groups in the world. MilesMoney ( talk) 05:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I have been warned that any opinion I have (like that this page is an abomination and a bunch of slanted and very poorly sourced information) is not allowed on this TALK PAGE?? How ludicrous! There was only 1 reason for the invention of this page, and that is to attack your political enemies and compare them with every radical nazi, dictatorial regime in history. Let me explain something that is very relevant here. In Europe, "Right Wing" means the opposite as it does in the USA. . There can NEVER be a global consensus about who or what is "Far Right". In the USA, The most "Far Right" posible would be NO GOVERNMENT. In other words, Anarchy. I submit that this whole page should be redirected to the Anarchy page. Problem solved. It seems the creators here believe they have found a way to compare their political enemies to the worst people in history and since the ones with power here are also far LEFT, they agree with the slant. Is there a "Far Left" page? Since the opposite of Left is Right, I would suppose that, after reading THIS page, the Far Left page would be about people who love flowers and animals and want everyone to love everything and everyone in a perfect world, right? I mean CUMMON people! Mussolini, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc were all BIG GOVERNMENT REGIMES and therefore FAR LEFT! To say this is is not true is like saying Black is White! Its a plain fact here in the USA at least. For a site that claims to be unbiased, wikipedia sure allows a hell of a lot of bias. -- -Jf ( talk) 18:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
the left-wing right-wing spectrum concept is flawed. It varies from country to country and across varies types of government. Something that's considered normal in one country will be considered 'extreme' in another. Even looking at Australian politics for a real life example, the centre-right wing party (called the liberal party) is essentially in line with the USA's centre-left party (the democrats). I think it's too ambiguous trying to categorise specific attributes to the far-right or far-left such as racism etc etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.200.153.103 ( talk) 12:05, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
I couldn't say myself. As for what WP should say, it should defer, as noted, to "what the mainstream majority of sources and opinion broadly say ... and how they tend to classify ... whether we like it or not". If the conclusion in the two suggested Russian cases is "not clear", fine, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something commonly known as "far right politics" – to which, for example, the LDPR in Russia would usually be said to ascribe – or that other political groups, such as the Democratic, Labour and Socialist parties in the US, UK and France respectively are not usually described as "centre-left/left-wing" and the Republican, Conservative and UMP parties as "centre-right/right-wing". Those labels are both relatively clear and in common use and we should not avoid them just because there may be less obvious cases out there as well. Anyway, this is quite a general discussion – I'm not clear what is being proposed for this page. N-HH talk/ edits 14:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Mugabe's party is post-Communist and to the left of Tsvangirai's socialist party. I do not think anyone in reliable sources considers Putin left-wing or socialist. It calls itself conservative, but it probably does not fit into the left-right political spectrum. Not all parties do, particularly in developing nations, where tribalism and ethnic conflict play a larger role than ideology. Where these parties adopt ideologies, it is usually secondary to nationalist issues.
But none of that explains why there cannot be a category of "far right" parties such as neo-nazis, in the same way that liberals, conservatives and socialists are categories. It could be that they are not really "far right", so the description is inaccurate. But that does not mean the category does not exist.
TFD ( talk) 15:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
An editor added to the lead, "Far right parties may also support social liberalism and socialism." [4] The sources provided do not support that, and I will therefore reverse them. TFD ( talk) 13:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Some more sources.
link: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-17-46.asp
quote from Bormann: The fertility of the Slavs is undesirable. They may use contraceptives or practice abortion, the more the better.
link: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm
quote: 11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions. Jimjilin ( talk) 15:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
To Dougweller: Von Mises is only one of those pointing out the socialist elements in the Nazi program. Many people said positive things about Fascism.
Check out this link: http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/hitler-mussolini-roosevelt
quote: Roosevelt himself called Mussolini “admirable” and professed that he was “deeply impressed by what he has accomplished.” The admiration was mutual. In a laudatory review of Roosevelt’s 1933 book Looking Forward, Mussolini wrote, “Reminiscent of Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.… Without question, the mood accompanying this sea change resembles that of Fascism.” The chief Nazi newspaper, Volkischer Beobachter, repeatedly praised “Roosevelt’s adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies” and “the development toward an authoritarian state” based on the “demand that collective good be put before individual self-interest.”
Here's another quote from the earlier Cato article: Politicians know better than private citizens what should be done. “Government alone,” Mussolini insisted, “is in the right position to see things from the point of view of the general welfare.” The government’s responsibility is to determine how much money is invested, how and where it should be invested and how the results will be judged. In Italy after 1925, all this was done through government-controlled cartels
Please note the articles I have been quoting mention both Nazis and Italian Fascists. Jimjilin ( talk) 15:39, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Check out these articles: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/book-review-south-africas-war-against-capitalism-by-walter-e-williams/ http://hnn.us/blog/7608 Jimjilin ( talk) 15:47, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
And by fringe you mean ideas you disagree with? It's nice to know we have someone who has been chosen as the voice of mainstream scholarship. lol
How about: "Far right parties may also support socialism and elements of social liberalism." Jimjilin ( talk) 17:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I did go to Google books and I found this: "Europe's right-wing populism is more socialist than(neo-)liberal."
link: http://books.google.com/books?id=EUhMAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22far+right%22+economic+populism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fXiHU93RB4W_sQTwzYKwDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22far%20right%22%20economic%20populism&f=false Jimjilin ( talk) 18:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Can we admit the obvious? The National Socialist German Workers' Party contained socialist elements. Jimjilin ( talk) 19:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
In the future I'll stay away from all sources that TFD disapproves of. That way I won't commit thoughtcrimes. Jimjilin ( talk) 00:23, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
As you know Bryonmorrigan this is dishonest. I have quoted academics and noted fascist policies. No mention of "Glenn Beck or some other drop-out". lol And, can I ask, when were you elected spokesman for "every reputable historian on the planet"?
Here's another academic source that points out the important socialist element in fascist ideology.
quote about Mussolini: In retrospect, it is clear that his socialism harbored all the convictions that he was subsequently to refashion into the ideology of nascent Fascism.
link: http://books.google.com/books?id=DTZ_holEfS0C&pg=PA223&dq=economic+populism+mussolini+socialism&hl=zh-CN&sa=X&ei=HASLU7jvDcT98QX-84GYCQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=economic%20populism%20mussolini%20socialism&f=false Jimjilin ( talk) 11:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Just for fun and to dispel any lingering doubt that Bryon Morrigan is utterly wrong, his intellectual pretenses farcical, I'll list some of my sources:
Walter Williams (Professor of Economics at George Mason University, chairman of the University's Economics department)
Dagmar Herzog (professor of history and the Daniel Rose Faculty scholar at the Graduate Center, City University of New York)
Ludwig von Mises (one of the most influential economists of the 20th century)
Anthony James Gregor (Professor of Political Science at the University of California, Berkeley)
And here's a new one: Zeev Sternhell (elected to the Léon Blum Chair of Political Science at the Hebrew University) who considered fascism "a synthesis of the two most forceful ideologies of the 19th century, nationalism and socialism".
link: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/06/books/when-fascism-was-in-flower.html
I've also quoted leading Nazi Martin Bormann and the Nazi Party program.
So to proclaim debate at an end is as dishonest as it is intolerant. Jimjilin ( talk) 14:51, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
To Dougweller - This is what I found at the Nazism page: "Large segments of the Nazi Party staunchly supported its official socialist, revolutionary, and anti-capitalist positions and expected both a social and economic revolution upon the party gaining power in 1933." Jimjilin ( talk) 16:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Let's make the opening paragraph shorter. I propose: Far-right politics or extreme-right politics are right-wing politics that are considered to be to the right of the mainstream centre right on the traditional left-right spectrum. The terms are commonly used to describe fascism, neo-fascism and other ideologies or organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, or racist views. Jimjilin ( talk) 16:40, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
This series of edits has added a lot of content to the lead. Although, broadly, it could be said to reflect reality, many of its assertions do not reflect what is currently in the body and are also stated too definitively. Also, from a more stylistic perspective, it trips over itself quite a lot and also contains odd words/phrases such as "inordinately", "constellation of viewpoints" and instructions as to how exhaustive it is or not. I might try to trim some of it, without that suggesting endorsement. N-HH talk/ edits 08:41, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
An editor changed "Some far-right movements, such as the Nazis" to " Some movements considered far-right, such as the Nazis". The edit description says, "Although Nazism is generally called far-right, it incorporates elements of both right and left. Describing it as far-right would be bias." [6]
The article is about the "far right", which is defined as groups deriving from inter-war fascism. While it could be that these groups were not right-wing, but were really leftists or centrists, the fact remains that "far right" is the term used to describe them. Similarly, teddy bears are not actually bears, but there is no reason to mention that every time the term is used in that article.
TFD ( talk) 15:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
This article confuses European Far-right politics with American Far-Right Politics. For instance the KKK was mostly made up of Democrats. (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics ) Would you call Democrats Far-Right in America? I would say not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.98.37 ( talk) 01:12, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Having read both the articles for far-left and far-right politics, the POV check can also be applied to this article. As referenced on the "politics series" box, there are several different conservative ideologies that can be summed up as: centrist, centre-right, right-wing, far-right, and radical-right (Increasing in order of magnitude). This article takes what belongs in the radical-right section (References to the Nazis and genocide, found in the first paragraph) and puts them here, a section meant for devout right-wing people. I will go ahead and remove the sentence that references such material. Redflorist ( talk) 21:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | → | Archive 13 |
Two editors are in disagreement about including Christian fundamentalism in the sentence that says the terms far right and extreme right " are commonly used to describe fascist, neo-fascist or other ideologies and organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, racist, or reactionary views." The source, Carlisle's The Encyclopedia of Politics: The Left and the Right, Volume 2: The Right (Sage Publications, 2005). p. 693 was added 5 October 2011 by an editor who is no longer with us. [1] I have no access to the source, does anyone know what it actually says? It seems out of place, because only in the modern U.S. is fundamentalism associated with the Right. In the past, non-conformists and dissenters were typically opposed to the Right, which supported the Established Church. TFD ( talk) 07:25, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
WP:MOSINTRO (policy) states: "Significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article, although not everything in the lead must be repeated in the body of the text. Exceptions include specific facts such as quotations, examples, birth dates, taxonomic names, case numbers, and titles." " Religious fundamentalism" is significant (as evidenced by the Wikilink to a 21kb article) and cannot be classified with any of the exceptions (quotations, examples, birth dates, taxonomic names, case numbers, and titles). Since it is not discussed or even mentioned in the body of this article, it should not be listed in the lead as a term to describe a far-right group. The citation really doesn't mean squat in the absence of supporting prose further down. Miles has already said that he doesn't want to edit war (but he did anyway), and that he's willing to escalate this if he doesn't get his way. Miles, if you can't convince TFD to agree with you, I suggest you take this to a noticeboard, where you are doing oh-so-well in dispute resolution of late. Roccodrift ( talk) 07:44, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Sometimes editors have trouble even understanding sources that are too academic for them; they mistake careful words for wishy-washy ones, they have difficulty drawing obvious inferences, and so on. Instead of complaining about the audience, it's often best to find sources at their level. When claims of bias are involved, it's also helpful to find a source that's biased against the information it's sharing. It's also important to make sure the source has the journalistic credentials to be reliable.
To that end, here's an article angrily reporting about a study released by West Point's Combating Terrorism Center, which links religious fundamentalism with the far right (in the form of right-wing terrorists). You don't need a college degree to understand it, and it's more than enough to restore the mention of religious fundamentalism in the lede. MilesMoney ( talk) 20:06, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
Convoluted?
I think that amply refutes your claim, though this is as much as I feel comfortable copying. Follow the link to read the rest. MilesMoney ( talk) 23:04, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
For those able to handle academic/military writing, here's something from page 3 of the actual report:
At this point, anyone denying that religious fundamentalism belongs in this article should be relieved from editing Wikipedia on, a permanent basis. MilesMoney ( talk) 23:14, 28 December 2013 (UTC)
I actually looked at the report, so I know it's useful. In particular, it makes it quite clear that religious fundamentalism belongs in the lede. The passage I quoted earlier is direct evidence of this. Also, it's true that the author isn't an undergrad. More to the point, he'd got a PhD in the field and is published extensively by Columbia and Routledge, as well as various periodicals. From this, we can conclude that both Rocco and Arzel failed to do even basic research on this source before dismissing it and have instead objected in bad faith. 01:33, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
Taken under advisement |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
Here's the actual sentence, with the debated term in bold.
So the question is whether far-right and extreme right are used to describe organizations/ideologies that feature, among other things, religious fundamentalism. The source I gave you supports precisely this: it states that religious fundamentalism (as well as racism and anti-federalism) are features of far-right organizations.
You mention that this source is focused on America, and that's true, but America is part of the world. Since religious fundamentalism is one of the features found in far-right groups in America, and since America is part of the world, it necessarily follows as a syllogism that religious fundamentalism is one of the features found in far-right groups in the world. MilesMoney ( talk) 05:21, 29 December 2013 (UTC)
I have been warned that any opinion I have (like that this page is an abomination and a bunch of slanted and very poorly sourced information) is not allowed on this TALK PAGE?? How ludicrous! There was only 1 reason for the invention of this page, and that is to attack your political enemies and compare them with every radical nazi, dictatorial regime in history. Let me explain something that is very relevant here. In Europe, "Right Wing" means the opposite as it does in the USA. . There can NEVER be a global consensus about who or what is "Far Right". In the USA, The most "Far Right" posible would be NO GOVERNMENT. In other words, Anarchy. I submit that this whole page should be redirected to the Anarchy page. Problem solved. It seems the creators here believe they have found a way to compare their political enemies to the worst people in history and since the ones with power here are also far LEFT, they agree with the slant. Is there a "Far Left" page? Since the opposite of Left is Right, I would suppose that, after reading THIS page, the Far Left page would be about people who love flowers and animals and want everyone to love everything and everyone in a perfect world, right? I mean CUMMON people! Mussolini, Hitler, Pol Pot, etc were all BIG GOVERNMENT REGIMES and therefore FAR LEFT! To say this is is not true is like saying Black is White! Its a plain fact here in the USA at least. For a site that claims to be unbiased, wikipedia sure allows a hell of a lot of bias. -- -Jf ( talk) 18:19, 25 January 2014 (UTC)
the left-wing right-wing spectrum concept is flawed. It varies from country to country and across varies types of government. Something that's considered normal in one country will be considered 'extreme' in another. Even looking at Australian politics for a real life example, the centre-right wing party (called the liberal party) is essentially in line with the USA's centre-left party (the democrats). I think it's too ambiguous trying to categorise specific attributes to the far-right or far-left such as racism etc etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by 180.200.153.103 ( talk) 12:05, 15 April 2014 (UTC)
I couldn't say myself. As for what WP should say, it should defer, as noted, to "what the mainstream majority of sources and opinion broadly say ... and how they tend to classify ... whether we like it or not". If the conclusion in the two suggested Russian cases is "not clear", fine, but that doesn't mean that there isn't something commonly known as "far right politics" – to which, for example, the LDPR in Russia would usually be said to ascribe – or that other political groups, such as the Democratic, Labour and Socialist parties in the US, UK and France respectively are not usually described as "centre-left/left-wing" and the Republican, Conservative and UMP parties as "centre-right/right-wing". Those labels are both relatively clear and in common use and we should not avoid them just because there may be less obvious cases out there as well. Anyway, this is quite a general discussion – I'm not clear what is being proposed for this page. N-HH talk/ edits 14:02, 16 April 2014 (UTC)
Mugabe's party is post-Communist and to the left of Tsvangirai's socialist party. I do not think anyone in reliable sources considers Putin left-wing or socialist. It calls itself conservative, but it probably does not fit into the left-right political spectrum. Not all parties do, particularly in developing nations, where tribalism and ethnic conflict play a larger role than ideology. Where these parties adopt ideologies, it is usually secondary to nationalist issues.
But none of that explains why there cannot be a category of "far right" parties such as neo-nazis, in the same way that liberals, conservatives and socialists are categories. It could be that they are not really "far right", so the description is inaccurate. But that does not mean the category does not exist.
TFD ( talk) 15:51, 17 April 2014 (UTC)
An editor added to the lead, "Far right parties may also support social liberalism and socialism." [4] The sources provided do not support that, and I will therefore reverse them. TFD ( talk) 13:45, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Some more sources.
link: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/imt/04-17-46.asp
quote from Bormann: The fertility of the Slavs is undesirable. They may use contraceptives or practice abortion, the more the better.
link: http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/25points.htm
quote: 11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.
12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.
13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.
14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries.
15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions. Jimjilin ( talk) 15:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
To Dougweller: Von Mises is only one of those pointing out the socialist elements in the Nazi program. Many people said positive things about Fascism.
Check out this link: http://www.cato.org/publications/commentary/hitler-mussolini-roosevelt
quote: Roosevelt himself called Mussolini “admirable” and professed that he was “deeply impressed by what he has accomplished.” The admiration was mutual. In a laudatory review of Roosevelt’s 1933 book Looking Forward, Mussolini wrote, “Reminiscent of Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.… Without question, the mood accompanying this sea change resembles that of Fascism.” The chief Nazi newspaper, Volkischer Beobachter, repeatedly praised “Roosevelt’s adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies” and “the development toward an authoritarian state” based on the “demand that collective good be put before individual self-interest.”
Here's another quote from the earlier Cato article: Politicians know better than private citizens what should be done. “Government alone,” Mussolini insisted, “is in the right position to see things from the point of view of the general welfare.” The government’s responsibility is to determine how much money is invested, how and where it should be invested and how the results will be judged. In Italy after 1925, all this was done through government-controlled cartels
Please note the articles I have been quoting mention both Nazis and Italian Fascists. Jimjilin ( talk) 15:39, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Check out these articles: http://www.fee.org/the_freeman/detail/book-review-south-africas-war-against-capitalism-by-walter-e-williams/ http://hnn.us/blog/7608 Jimjilin ( talk) 15:47, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
And by fringe you mean ideas you disagree with? It's nice to know we have someone who has been chosen as the voice of mainstream scholarship. lol
How about: "Far right parties may also support socialism and elements of social liberalism." Jimjilin ( talk) 17:02, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
I did go to Google books and I found this: "Europe's right-wing populism is more socialist than(neo-)liberal."
link: http://books.google.com/books?id=EUhMAQAAQBAJ&pg=PA16&dq=%22far+right%22+economic+populism&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fXiHU93RB4W_sQTwzYKwDA&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22far%20right%22%20economic%20populism&f=false Jimjilin ( talk) 18:22, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
Can we admit the obvious? The National Socialist German Workers' Party contained socialist elements. Jimjilin ( talk) 19:07, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
In the future I'll stay away from all sources that TFD disapproves of. That way I won't commit thoughtcrimes. Jimjilin ( talk) 00:23, 30 May 2014 (UTC)
As you know Bryonmorrigan this is dishonest. I have quoted academics and noted fascist policies. No mention of "Glenn Beck or some other drop-out". lol And, can I ask, when were you elected spokesman for "every reputable historian on the planet"?
Here's another academic source that points out the important socialist element in fascist ideology.
quote about Mussolini: In retrospect, it is clear that his socialism harbored all the convictions that he was subsequently to refashion into the ideology of nascent Fascism.
link: http://books.google.com/books?id=DTZ_holEfS0C&pg=PA223&dq=economic+populism+mussolini+socialism&hl=zh-CN&sa=X&ei=HASLU7jvDcT98QX-84GYCQ&ved=0CD8Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=economic%20populism%20mussolini%20socialism&f=false Jimjilin ( talk) 11:48, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
Just for fun and to dispel any lingering doubt that Bryon Morrigan is utterly wrong, his intellectual pretenses farcical, I'll list some of my sources:
Walter Williams (Professor of Economics at George Mason University, chairman of the University's Economics department)
Dagmar Herzog (professor of history and the Daniel Rose Faculty scholar at the Graduate Center, City University of New York)
Ludwig von Mises (one of the most influential economists of the 20th century)
Anthony James Gregor (Professor of Political Science at the University of California, Berkeley)
And here's a new one: Zeev Sternhell (elected to the Léon Blum Chair of Political Science at the Hebrew University) who considered fascism "a synthesis of the two most forceful ideologies of the 19th century, nationalism and socialism".
link: http://www.nytimes.com/1994/02/06/books/when-fascism-was-in-flower.html
I've also quoted leading Nazi Martin Bormann and the Nazi Party program.
So to proclaim debate at an end is as dishonest as it is intolerant. Jimjilin ( talk) 14:51, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
To Dougweller - This is what I found at the Nazism page: "Large segments of the Nazi Party staunchly supported its official socialist, revolutionary, and anti-capitalist positions and expected both a social and economic revolution upon the party gaining power in 1933." Jimjilin ( talk) 16:34, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
Let's make the opening paragraph shorter. I propose: Far-right politics or extreme-right politics are right-wing politics that are considered to be to the right of the mainstream centre right on the traditional left-right spectrum. The terms are commonly used to describe fascism, neo-fascism and other ideologies or organizations that feature extreme nationalist, chauvinist, xenophobic, or racist views. Jimjilin ( talk) 16:40, 2 June 2014 (UTC)
This series of edits has added a lot of content to the lead. Although, broadly, it could be said to reflect reality, many of its assertions do not reflect what is currently in the body and are also stated too definitively. Also, from a more stylistic perspective, it trips over itself quite a lot and also contains odd words/phrases such as "inordinately", "constellation of viewpoints" and instructions as to how exhaustive it is or not. I might try to trim some of it, without that suggesting endorsement. N-HH talk/ edits 08:41, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
An editor changed "Some far-right movements, such as the Nazis" to " Some movements considered far-right, such as the Nazis". The edit description says, "Although Nazism is generally called far-right, it incorporates elements of both right and left. Describing it as far-right would be bias." [6]
The article is about the "far right", which is defined as groups deriving from inter-war fascism. While it could be that these groups were not right-wing, but were really leftists or centrists, the fact remains that "far right" is the term used to describe them. Similarly, teddy bears are not actually bears, but there is no reason to mention that every time the term is used in that article.
TFD ( talk) 15:46, 3 November 2014 (UTC)
This article confuses European Far-right politics with American Far-Right Politics. For instance the KKK was mostly made up of Democrats. (source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ku_Klux_Klan_members_in_United_States_politics ) Would you call Democrats Far-Right in America? I would say not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.2.98.37 ( talk) 01:12, 11 November 2014 (UTC)
Having read both the articles for far-left and far-right politics, the POV check can also be applied to this article. As referenced on the "politics series" box, there are several different conservative ideologies that can be summed up as: centrist, centre-right, right-wing, far-right, and radical-right (Increasing in order of magnitude). This article takes what belongs in the radical-right section (References to the Nazis and genocide, found in the first paragraph) and puts them here, a section meant for devout right-wing people. I will go ahead and remove the sentence that references such material. Redflorist ( talk) 21:51, 1 February 2015 (UTC)