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The assertion: " On the other hand, the slave would probably be put to death for the injury of the eye of the slave-owner." is totally unfounded, onder the jewish law a slave should have had to pay a monetary compensation, the only problem beeing that he didn't possess anything, and was thus exempted of payement until he was set free cf michnah 8 chapter 4 of Baba Kama. Furthermore if a free man killed a slave he was passible of death penalty in the same way as if he had killed a other free man, with the exeption of the owner which was exempt in the case of the death beeing delayed more than 24 hours after the beating (exodus 21:20) 213.224.2.178 ( talk) 12:26, 21 January 2015 (UTC)Ahy Gavra 213.224.2.178 ( talk) 12:26, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
What does Talionis mean? I read the summaries of 200 web pages on Talionis and found not even one literal translation. -- Menchi 12:18 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
It is the genitive case of the Latin talio (retaliation), and therefore means 'of retaliation'. I guess that it was derived from talis, meaning 'of such kind'. -- Heron 13:53, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The rabbinic interpretation - the law "an eye for an eye etc." demands an adequate financial or other substitution of a physical damage - is supported by the biblical context itself. In Exodus chapter 21, verses 23-24 this law first appears: It is clearly related to cases of physical damage in a fight between men, in extreme with mortal consequences for a pregnant woman (vers 22). The adequate substitution is a certain amount of money, which the victims partner and the judges have to find out together. The verse that follows the quotation of the law applies it to a case of physical damage to a slave: the adequate punishment for his owner is not to let him take one of his eyes but to set him free for the rest of his lifetime!
The understanding of this law as a law principle which cannot be taken literally is also supported by the context of it´s other appearances in the bible.
And also by the historical comparison to the babylonic "Lex Hammurabi" which shows a totally other understanding of retaliation by using almost the same words as the bible.
Last but not least: This law does NOT necessarily support the death punishment, despite it´s common abuse by most christian fundamentalists. This an article with an encyclopedic approach should point out! -- 213.7.97.164 20:25, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sorry my identification is not valid on english wikipedia: look for "Jesusfreund" on german wikipedia, if you want to answer me. -- 213.7.97.164 20:28, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should a seperate page titled lex talionis be created redirecting to this article?
I agree with the argument at the top. The article provides a controversial opinion that Biblically, it meant literal reciprocal punishment and it was only later Rabbis who changed it while further in Exodus, it specifically describes punishment for killing a fetus as being monetary. This flatly contradicts the opinion that it was interpreted literally until later Rabbis changed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.152.10.97 ( talk) 22:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
This section needs discussion as it is highly invective, and derogatory of Jews:
"Most Christians see the New Testament as superior to the Hebrew Bible, and have traditionally read many of the laws in the Hebrew Bible as outdated or immoral. Outside of the Jewish community, the Christian view of the Hebrew Bible has become standard for many non-Christians. As such, many non-Christians have a critical view of the Hebrew Bible's conception of justice, and also of rabbinic Judaism's concept of justice. One example of this point of view is the quote "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" by Mohandas Gandhi. This quote was originally by Kahlil Gibran, not Gandhi.
Those who disagree with this view note that it is a Christian interpretation of the commandment, which assumes that the directive encourages bloody retributive justice. Since the original intent was to limit retribution, the criticism is held to be misinformed and invalid."
Further comments needed... IZAK 07:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
RK: Ho-hum, did I ever say this is an "Orthodox encyclopedia"? If anyone thinks so, they should get their head read, and remember this is NOT a Conservative Judaism encyclopedia either, and it is definitely NOT merely a convocation for anti-religious athiests either, so cut out your crap and leave out criticizing your imagined view/s of other Wikipedians' religious beliefs. IZAK 23:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the Criticism section is still far from neutral. 80.221.157.153 06:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. The quote must be read in context, and the most direct context is the one surrounding the quote:
This cannot imply anything except "an unjust action must be met with an equivelant punishment". The "upper limit" explanation is wrong. If there was opportunity for legal systems to give a lower punishment, then the lines 26 and 27 would not make sense. This law suggests that the servant now gets to take the eye if he would like, unless he can be enticed into sparing the one whose eye would be taken. This makes sense, though some may now find it wrong, morally. Since I believe that there is a greater chance that this quote, in the historical context, means exactly what people think it means today ("you may do as much ill to others as they've done to you") due to attitudes being different at the time of the writing, - that there is a greater chance of that than of the author becoming suddenly confused and writing something that makes no sense, I will soon be editing this article, setting the above sentiments (italics, first para) as a minor note, and then providing refutation of those sentiments. Slike2 09:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your rewrite a translation that does not seem to mandate physical retribution. I have no objections to it now that you've explained and rewritten it. It should be pointed out that these are laws that made their way into the bible, and not biblical teachings. Slike2 00:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Your argument seems to be that because verses 22, 26, and 27 advocate non-reciprocal punishment, this must be true for verses 24 and 25 as well. I do not think this does justice to the passage in question. Verse 22 describes a case where reciprocal justice is impossible, because you cannot cause a man to miscarry. Likewise verses 26 and 27 are presented as exceptions to the general rule, describing the special case when the victim is a slave and therefore not of equal status as a fellow citizen. In this case, naturally, his eye is not worth as much as the eye of the assailant, and therefore reciprocal justice becomes impossible, too, and is substituted by setting the slave free. However, the general rule that is presupposed and re-stated in verses 24 and 25 is clearly that the one who injures another's eye, shall have his own eye destroyed, etc. The fact that, for very obvious practical and ethical reasons, modern Jewish scholarship has adopted a more metaphorical interpretation of this passage should not lead us to mistake this interpretation for the original meaning of this law.-- 84.190.12.116 ( talk) 18:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC).
I have done a complete rewrite on the "Criticisms" section, which was vague, inaccurate, and tendentious (not as bad as the stuff that had already been evicted above, but along the same lines). I've also tweaked the Intro section to try to reflect the new content (and some of the interesting discussion above). As will be obvious, I am writing this from within the Christian tradition, but I have sought to do so in an NPOV way; this article has to reflect Christian as well as Jewish interpretations and commentary, since the target phrase is in the New Testament (and in a crucial section of it) as well as the Hebrew Bible. I am very happy to get into discussion here over the exact points that need to be made and how; properly understood, this is not something that needs to be a matter of conflict between Jewish and Christian scholars. seglea 01:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I've always felt the policy was meant to promote mercy, as if you deny yourself vengeance, your neighbor might let you off the hook the next time, but it would always be clear that you had every right to it... thus giving it value.
I think we should be less timid in ascribing the original codification of the idea to the Babylonians. This translation of Hammurabi's code [1] states quite clearly:
The passage was clearly defining punishments to be sentenced by a judge or court or other judicial body - it clearly indicates earlier that fines are to be imposed for certain damages; to those who argue this verse justifies personal revenge, would you say this justifies the injured party to go take whatever money he deems reasonable? The passage does not allow personal vengeance, but is a prescription for the judge to give just punishment which fits the crime. Jesus' mention of the verse in the new testament supports the idea that it was not about personal revenge, because he says "you have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" instead of saying "it is written."
Removing section claiming that the "turn the other cheek" antithesis is not contrary. If someone notable thinks that it is not, it may be mentioned that Prof. _____ (or whoever) thinks that this is not contrary. HKT 12:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Sounds good to me. Pardon my ignorance. In any event, it is nice that the emphatic view is at least generally attributed now, rather than left as a simple assertion of fact. Thanks, HKT 21:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
One troubling (at least, to me) aspect is that Moses himself did not follow this principle as doggedly as his namesake law has sometimes been interpreted. There are (a few) times when Moses turned to mercy rather than retribution, lending some additional credibility to the view that these laws served both as a principle of justice--limiting retribution--and as a rough sentencing guideline, of sorts. Yet there were times when the punishment meted out by Moses did seem to be more severe than this aphorism would suggest.
Perhaps we just don't know enough to state equivocally the principle was, or was not, in force as a limiter or as a prescription. I'm not certain we can even know, given our known extant resources.
As one example, perhaps we should not go too far in equating "servants" with "chattel" in the culture of this time and place.
Mosaic law seems to establish that Jewish servants (i.e., those who are bound into service for economic reasons) did not forfeit all of their rights--and especially did not forfeit *on behalf of their tribe* any of the rights held collectively. This is an important point in that the "eye for an eye" concludes with blatant exceptions: If a master puts out a servant's eye, the master's eye is not forfeit: Instead the servant is released (which would indicate that whatever financial obligation caused them to go into service was forfeited by the master).
On its face, however, this potentially contraindicating command (with its implication that a master's eye was worth more than a servant's eye, or that in every case, a servant's freedom was equal to the loss of an eye or tooth. "If A =B and B=C, doesn't A=B? (hmmm. I've lost teeth and it didn't seem to be that big of a deal so that I would much prefer losing even a bunch of teeth rather than an eye. . .)
Although I have never seen evidence that it was put into practice (do we know for sure which laws were practiced and which were not?), the reconciliation year of the Jubilee was to see the land of all of the servants returned to their tribes, and all the servants (at least of Israel, and perhaps of Edom) were to be set free. Given that the taking into bondage was neither a transfer of all the bonded's possessions into the hands of the master, nor was a permanent condition, it seems strange that servants would be denied "retribution"--the eye for their eye--on the last day before Jubilee, and granted it the next.
I believe this lends support to the view that this was a limiting, rather than a prescribed punishment. This would then support the view that what is being traded is economic value rather than blood.
It does seem a bit strange to read the ancient texts as if they were modern law or even sentencing guidelines. At about the time the laws were given a number of righteous men were named judges (at the suggestion of Jethro, a priest of Midian and the father of Moses' wife, Zipporah), yet there is no mention of limits or guidelines within which these judges were to operate, except that they were to take the more difficult cases to Moses. While they certainly would have been expected to follow the Levitical law (although given the number of times the people seemed to forget all about it, I wonder if it were widely distributed), these laws may not have been complete at the time, and even if complete, it is not clear there was universal literacy among the people who had grown up slaves in Egypt. Even if every man, woman, child and household pet was completely literate, I'm not so sure there was universal access to the written texts.
We sometimes forget this, but in a strictly hierarchical society, there is no "rule of law." The law is whatever those above you in the hierarchy say it is. This is part of what was so revolutionary about the Hellenist systems. Even the Roman law was often completely reinterpreted to suit Caesar (especially in later years) but in Athens the law was a source to which a rhetor could appeal to supply strength to his warrants. I believe it is safe to say that no such system was present in Judaism, Islam or Christianity until much later. The closest would probably be the Law of the Medes. My rudimentary knowledge about this civilization makes me stop short of being sure, however.
Even if we believe the written Mosaic law was scrupulously applied to the children of Jacob, it is less clear about the role of aliens in the land, whether they be previous inhabitants who did not leave or die when the Israelites arrived from Egypt, trophies of war (especially women and children), or someone outside of the Thirteen (or twelve, or eleven, or fourteen. . .) tribes.
This is an unsettled question. Consider for example the account of the battle between the kingdoms which resulted in Judah taking many slaves. The prophet Oded, an apparently faithful prophet of God, went to the victorious army and told them to release their slaves, "for they are related to you, your brothers and sisters". Thus it is apparent that there were different rules in place for relatives than from foreigners.
Just to complicate things a bit more, at times it seems God considers Edom as related to the people, for they are also children of Abraham. At other times, however, it seems that they are given no special status.
Thus the issues surrounding the status of the actual implementation of this law versus the knowledge that it did exist may be relevant. In other words, we don't know just how this law of retribution was actually implemented--or if it ever really was implemented in the way we think of laws.
I suppose this ends up saying "we shouldn't say we know if we don't know." While unequivocality and unambiguity are wonderful traits for an encyclopedia, it might just be that this is one case in which we are better off saying "Some say. . . while others say . . ." rather than attempting to discern what was the actual practice (thus the salient practice, given the likely low level of formal literacy.
There is also the problem that the intra-textual evidence is also ambiguous. While it is clear (I believe) that Moses did not return from the dead to write his own obituary, it is not clear that any of these accounts are forgeries. Given the historical legs of this text, I would expect a careful presentation of evidence before any credible author started claiming exactly what was the approach of the people to the law.
Thanks, all, for your good work. I believe the sides might not be as far apart as they might seem.
Roy 04:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I am dissatisfied with the word "etcetera" in the alternatives section for the following reasons:
I propose rewording the section to either include all known examples, provide a reference to other examples, or to state that two examples are given here (not excluding the possibility of others, but not stating that there are others either).
What do people think? Stephen B Streater 08:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This implies that all forms of "eye for an eye" punishment are simply ways for an authority to wreak vengeance on behalf of a victim. Not all legal systems employing the phrase "an eye for an eye" mandate "poetic justice" for the sake of easing victims' grief, as other parts of this article mention. HKT 21:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
This passage strikes me as rather POV:
While this should be mentioned as a possibility, it seems by no means "clear" that Jesus was not criticising the law. In its raw biblical form (and this is ultimately by far the best source to go on), Jesus' "turn the other cheek" looks like a direct rebuttal of the "eye for an eye" law, particularly as he quotes it and then goes on "but I say...". The fact that christian scholars have produced theses attempting to reconcile the two (possibly out of theological necessity), does not constitute proven fact. Or am I missing something? SteveRwanda 13:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The point of what he was saying is, if you pass up the opportunity to 'even the score' with someone, maybe others will do the same when you screw up. At the same time, if you DO screw up, you should expect the full amount of what you've done to be done to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 ( talk) 21:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Come on, the section on cultural references is just silly. We're not talking about some obscure 1934 car brand where it might actually be interesting to see who's used it, we're talking about a common English phrase. This section is never even going to be remotely complete or interesting, and is just reflecting viewer biases from editors.
I'd remove it, but since I'm anonymous, it would just get shot down as vandalism. 82.95.254.249 06:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think MLK said that about an 'eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.' he might have, but i think gandhi coined the phrase long before.
-ramsey affifi
Lex Talionis, while its a Latin name, was a concept of ancient Sumeria. Why isn't this in the article? 08:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has nothing to do with Arabic in particular, so having the translation of "eye for an eye" in Arabic in the introduction makes no more sense than having the translation into French, Georgian, Japanese, Quechua or any other language. It could make sense to have it in Sumerian or Akkadian, source languages for the quote, or in Hebrew, source language for the Bible. To this end, I've removed the Arabic. For those who have comments, please write them below. Be sure to add four ~ to show your signature. Interlingua 06:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The origin of this phrase is from the Code of Hammurabi. However, why there were no sections or not discussed about it?
169.233.49.209 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC).
I've never heard that "turn the other cheek" was any sort of pacifism in the face of violence. The passage has largely been interpreted that the "strike" Jesus was refering to was an insult/attack on ones character or a **minor** assault, as the "strike" is described as being a "backhand" strike, one intended to insult instead of harm. The pacifism nonsense is what non-christians/non-biblical scholars have largely claimed about the passage. So was this written by someone who knew what they were even writing? 66.190.29.150 ( talk) 18:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed this, it looked quite random. If this really was a well-known interpretation, please provide more context. 99.245.206.188 ( talk) 02:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to change this sentence: "from Exodus 21:23–27 in which a person who has taken the eye of another in a fight is instructed to give his own eye in compensation."
This is not what this verse says. It clearly says that if two people are fighting and they harm a pregnant woman's baby, the one responsible will be punished with a life for a life, an eye for an eye.... Not a common understanding of the context.
Mtkoan ( talk) 04:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
The article "Fight Fire With Fire" was redirecting to Metallica's Ride The Lightning album. I fixed that bit, but could somebody else more experienced with this sort of thing head over to there and clean it up better than I attempted to? I figured if somebody knows a fair deal about wikipedia and older expressions of this type, I'd find them here fastest, thanks. Xanofar ( talk) 04:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
A reference is given to the American Jewish Orthodox movement A text appears, said to be "Paraphrased" from this association The paraphrase is misleading Here is what is actually said by them
The concept of an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot" as punishment for a physical injury is mentioned in the Written Torah in "Shemot"/Exodus 21:24. This verse has been the basis for criticism of the Torah as a harsh and inhumane document for thousands of years, all based on a misunderstanding of its meaning.
The Oral Law explains that what is meant is a sophisticated five-part monetary form of compensation, consisting of payment for "Damages, Pain, Medical Expenses, Incapacitation, and Mental Anguish" - which underlie many modern "advanced" legal codes? And the expression, "An eye for an eye, etc." means that that is what the perpetrator deserves, if not for the mercy of the Torah and its Author. Ah, you ask, how do you know the Torah means that, and is not to be taken literally? Because the Torah says, "Do not take a ransom for the life of a Murderer, who is wicked to the extent that he must die"; for the murderer, there is no monetary amount that is sufficient to grant him atonement in the eyes of G-d! Only payment with his life will secure that atonement! But for other forms of injury, we will take millions of dollars from the criminal, as a ransom for his eye, hand, or foot; and as atonement, hopefully rendering him a poor man, for his terrible crime!
The text in the Wikipedia article should be amended to "Paraphrase" the Orthodox view accurately!!
Historygypsy ( talk) 13:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to direct attention to the following sentence:
"Under the right conditions, such as the ability for all actors to participate in an iterative fashion, the "eye for an eye" punishment system has a mathematical basis in the Tit for tat game theory strategy."
I'd propose to delete this enigmatic remark. There might be some truth in it. But as it stands, it either needs some expansion - which would be quite inappropriate in the context - or left out. Collini ( talk) 22:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Your article says "eye for eye" IS in the Hebrew Bible and does NOT occur in the Hebrew Bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim club ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I understand the desire to use the more understandable and more widely known "eye for an eye" but the scholarly and legal term is "lex talionis". I have been searching in Google books for sources to use in the "Eye for an eye" section of Judaism and violence. The most commonly used phrase is "lex talionis" although some sources use both. Generally, they will say "lex talionis" and then explain that this is "eye for an eye" but then they will use "lex talionis" in subsequent sentences. There is even one source that says "Eye for an eye" or "lex talionis" as it is referred to in Near East studies. Any objections to moving this article to Lex talionis? -- Richard S ( talk) 04:57, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Lex Talionis redirects here, which is ridiculous. The academic concept is "lex talionis" and the article should be called that. Alphachimera ( talk) 18:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Agree with a change, the article name should be: "The Law of Talion"(common English term), "eye 4 an eye" seems to me like christian vandalism to force their pov/beliefs/"sacred texts" over everyone(something I know and experience on my everyday, thus I can spot it right on sight), the concept and name is largely know as "the law of talion", just look at the articles in Dutch, Spanish, Italian and the vast majority of languages, the name goes Lex Talionis or "law of talion". Why the article should be named "eye 4 an eye" when is not the original and real name at all?-- FaustoLG ( talk) 05:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
I changed this from "eye under eye", which makes little to no sense in English, to "an eye in place of an eye". I'd say this is justified as a literal translation: 1) The indefinite pronoun "a(n)", which is necessary in English, is implicit in Hebrew, which has only a definite pronoun. Thus, the literal translation of the noun "ayin" is "an eye", as opposed to "ha-ayin", which would be "the eye". 2) The preposition tachath, which sometimes is used to mean "underneath", more generally means "in (the) place of". There are many instances in the Hebrew Bible of this word used in contexts where the translation "underneath" simply would not make sense. JudahH ( talk) 07:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no move. -- tariqabjotu 14:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Eye for an eye → Lex talionis – The academic concept is called "lex talionis," the vernacular phrase "eye for an eye" should redirect to the academic concept, not the other way around (currently, lex talionis redirects to "eye for an eye." This article even concedes that "Eye for an Eye" is actually called "mirror punishment" which is an existing article. Moreover, Wikipedia article naming conventions require the page to be called what it is referred to in "notable" sources, a quick search on Google Books confirms a plethora of scholarly interest in "lex talionis." Thank you for your consideration. Alphachimera ( talk) 18:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I am again reverting an edit that falsely adds the claim that Gandhi made a related statement ending something like "makes the whole world blind." Please do not add content to this article that attributes this without reviewing and addressing the available research, particularly as described at wikiquote:Mahatma Gandhi and at [3]. There is currently no evidence that indicates when and where Gandhi created the quotation and considerable evidence that, in fact, he did not. — Danorton ( talk) 04:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
A murder for a drawing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.78.75.150 ( talk) 09:52, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
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The article discusses the principle in relation to various legal codes but forgets about its relation to feuding. In many cultures, injured parties had the option to either seek legal redress or exact revenge. In that situation, the "eye for an eye" principle should be thought of to moderate the scope of the revenge. These kind of "parallel" justice systems were common in all parts of the world. ImTheIP ( talk) 23:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
I removed the erroneously claim that lex talionis means "law of the claw." It doesn't. The phrase comes from talio, which in Lewis and Short's Latin dictionary is "a punishment similar and equal to the injury sustained, like for like, retaliation in kind," not from talus, ankle-bone. If it were "law of the claw," it would be lex tali. MASingerND ( talk) 17:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
This concept is also Islamic? The articles should link to reach other better. Irtapil ( talk) 00:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
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The assertion: " On the other hand, the slave would probably be put to death for the injury of the eye of the slave-owner." is totally unfounded, onder the jewish law a slave should have had to pay a monetary compensation, the only problem beeing that he didn't possess anything, and was thus exempted of payement until he was set free cf michnah 8 chapter 4 of Baba Kama. Furthermore if a free man killed a slave he was passible of death penalty in the same way as if he had killed a other free man, with the exeption of the owner which was exempt in the case of the death beeing delayed more than 24 hours after the beating (exodus 21:20) 213.224.2.178 ( talk) 12:26, 21 January 2015 (UTC)Ahy Gavra 213.224.2.178 ( talk) 12:26, 21 January 2015 (UTC)
What does Talionis mean? I read the summaries of 200 web pages on Talionis and found not even one literal translation. -- Menchi 12:18 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)
It is the genitive case of the Latin talio (retaliation), and therefore means 'of retaliation'. I guess that it was derived from talis, meaning 'of such kind'. -- Heron 13:53, 16 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The rabbinic interpretation - the law "an eye for an eye etc." demands an adequate financial or other substitution of a physical damage - is supported by the biblical context itself. In Exodus chapter 21, verses 23-24 this law first appears: It is clearly related to cases of physical damage in a fight between men, in extreme with mortal consequences for a pregnant woman (vers 22). The adequate substitution is a certain amount of money, which the victims partner and the judges have to find out together. The verse that follows the quotation of the law applies it to a case of physical damage to a slave: the adequate punishment for his owner is not to let him take one of his eyes but to set him free for the rest of his lifetime!
The understanding of this law as a law principle which cannot be taken literally is also supported by the context of it´s other appearances in the bible.
And also by the historical comparison to the babylonic "Lex Hammurabi" which shows a totally other understanding of retaliation by using almost the same words as the bible.
Last but not least: This law does NOT necessarily support the death punishment, despite it´s common abuse by most christian fundamentalists. This an article with an encyclopedic approach should point out! -- 213.7.97.164 20:25, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Sorry my identification is not valid on english wikipedia: look for "Jesusfreund" on german wikipedia, if you want to answer me. -- 213.7.97.164 20:28, 17 Oct 2004 (UTC)
Should a seperate page titled lex talionis be created redirecting to this article?
I agree with the argument at the top. The article provides a controversial opinion that Biblically, it meant literal reciprocal punishment and it was only later Rabbis who changed it while further in Exodus, it specifically describes punishment for killing a fetus as being monetary. This flatly contradicts the opinion that it was interpreted literally until later Rabbis changed it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.152.10.97 ( talk) 22:57, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
This section needs discussion as it is highly invective, and derogatory of Jews:
"Most Christians see the New Testament as superior to the Hebrew Bible, and have traditionally read many of the laws in the Hebrew Bible as outdated or immoral. Outside of the Jewish community, the Christian view of the Hebrew Bible has become standard for many non-Christians. As such, many non-Christians have a critical view of the Hebrew Bible's conception of justice, and also of rabbinic Judaism's concept of justice. One example of this point of view is the quote "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind" by Mohandas Gandhi. This quote was originally by Kahlil Gibran, not Gandhi.
Those who disagree with this view note that it is a Christian interpretation of the commandment, which assumes that the directive encourages bloody retributive justice. Since the original intent was to limit retribution, the criticism is held to be misinformed and invalid."
Further comments needed... IZAK 07:19, 24 Oct 2004 (UTC)
RK: Ho-hum, did I ever say this is an "Orthodox encyclopedia"? If anyone thinks so, they should get their head read, and remember this is NOT a Conservative Judaism encyclopedia either, and it is definitely NOT merely a convocation for anti-religious athiests either, so cut out your crap and leave out criticizing your imagined view/s of other Wikipedians' religious beliefs. IZAK 23:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I think the Criticism section is still far from neutral. 80.221.157.153 06:22, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
This is ridiculous. The quote must be read in context, and the most direct context is the one surrounding the quote:
This cannot imply anything except "an unjust action must be met with an equivelant punishment". The "upper limit" explanation is wrong. If there was opportunity for legal systems to give a lower punishment, then the lines 26 and 27 would not make sense. This law suggests that the servant now gets to take the eye if he would like, unless he can be enticed into sparing the one whose eye would be taken. This makes sense, though some may now find it wrong, morally. Since I believe that there is a greater chance that this quote, in the historical context, means exactly what people think it means today ("you may do as much ill to others as they've done to you") due to attitudes being different at the time of the writing, - that there is a greater chance of that than of the author becoming suddenly confused and writing something that makes no sense, I will soon be editing this article, setting the above sentiments (italics, first para) as a minor note, and then providing refutation of those sentiments. Slike2 09:06, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your rewrite a translation that does not seem to mandate physical retribution. I have no objections to it now that you've explained and rewritten it. It should be pointed out that these are laws that made their way into the bible, and not biblical teachings. Slike2 00:41, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Your argument seems to be that because verses 22, 26, and 27 advocate non-reciprocal punishment, this must be true for verses 24 and 25 as well. I do not think this does justice to the passage in question. Verse 22 describes a case where reciprocal justice is impossible, because you cannot cause a man to miscarry. Likewise verses 26 and 27 are presented as exceptions to the general rule, describing the special case when the victim is a slave and therefore not of equal status as a fellow citizen. In this case, naturally, his eye is not worth as much as the eye of the assailant, and therefore reciprocal justice becomes impossible, too, and is substituted by setting the slave free. However, the general rule that is presupposed and re-stated in verses 24 and 25 is clearly that the one who injures another's eye, shall have his own eye destroyed, etc. The fact that, for very obvious practical and ethical reasons, modern Jewish scholarship has adopted a more metaphorical interpretation of this passage should not lead us to mistake this interpretation for the original meaning of this law.-- 84.190.12.116 ( talk) 18:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC).
I have done a complete rewrite on the "Criticisms" section, which was vague, inaccurate, and tendentious (not as bad as the stuff that had already been evicted above, but along the same lines). I've also tweaked the Intro section to try to reflect the new content (and some of the interesting discussion above). As will be obvious, I am writing this from within the Christian tradition, but I have sought to do so in an NPOV way; this article has to reflect Christian as well as Jewish interpretations and commentary, since the target phrase is in the New Testament (and in a crucial section of it) as well as the Hebrew Bible. I am very happy to get into discussion here over the exact points that need to be made and how; properly understood, this is not something that needs to be a matter of conflict between Jewish and Christian scholars. seglea 01:38, 25 July 2005 (UTC)
I've always felt the policy was meant to promote mercy, as if you deny yourself vengeance, your neighbor might let you off the hook the next time, but it would always be clear that you had every right to it... thus giving it value.
I think we should be less timid in ascribing the original codification of the idea to the Babylonians. This translation of Hammurabi's code [1] states quite clearly:
The passage was clearly defining punishments to be sentenced by a judge or court or other judicial body - it clearly indicates earlier that fines are to be imposed for certain damages; to those who argue this verse justifies personal revenge, would you say this justifies the injured party to go take whatever money he deems reasonable? The passage does not allow personal vengeance, but is a prescription for the judge to give just punishment which fits the crime. Jesus' mention of the verse in the new testament supports the idea that it was not about personal revenge, because he says "you have heard it said, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" instead of saying "it is written."
Removing section claiming that the "turn the other cheek" antithesis is not contrary. If someone notable thinks that it is not, it may be mentioned that Prof. _____ (or whoever) thinks that this is not contrary. HKT 12:25, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Okay. Sounds good to me. Pardon my ignorance. In any event, it is nice that the emphatic view is at least generally attributed now, rather than left as a simple assertion of fact. Thanks, HKT 21:42, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
One troubling (at least, to me) aspect is that Moses himself did not follow this principle as doggedly as his namesake law has sometimes been interpreted. There are (a few) times when Moses turned to mercy rather than retribution, lending some additional credibility to the view that these laws served both as a principle of justice--limiting retribution--and as a rough sentencing guideline, of sorts. Yet there were times when the punishment meted out by Moses did seem to be more severe than this aphorism would suggest.
Perhaps we just don't know enough to state equivocally the principle was, or was not, in force as a limiter or as a prescription. I'm not certain we can even know, given our known extant resources.
As one example, perhaps we should not go too far in equating "servants" with "chattel" in the culture of this time and place.
Mosaic law seems to establish that Jewish servants (i.e., those who are bound into service for economic reasons) did not forfeit all of their rights--and especially did not forfeit *on behalf of their tribe* any of the rights held collectively. This is an important point in that the "eye for an eye" concludes with blatant exceptions: If a master puts out a servant's eye, the master's eye is not forfeit: Instead the servant is released (which would indicate that whatever financial obligation caused them to go into service was forfeited by the master).
On its face, however, this potentially contraindicating command (with its implication that a master's eye was worth more than a servant's eye, or that in every case, a servant's freedom was equal to the loss of an eye or tooth. "If A =B and B=C, doesn't A=B? (hmmm. I've lost teeth and it didn't seem to be that big of a deal so that I would much prefer losing even a bunch of teeth rather than an eye. . .)
Although I have never seen evidence that it was put into practice (do we know for sure which laws were practiced and which were not?), the reconciliation year of the Jubilee was to see the land of all of the servants returned to their tribes, and all the servants (at least of Israel, and perhaps of Edom) were to be set free. Given that the taking into bondage was neither a transfer of all the bonded's possessions into the hands of the master, nor was a permanent condition, it seems strange that servants would be denied "retribution"--the eye for their eye--on the last day before Jubilee, and granted it the next.
I believe this lends support to the view that this was a limiting, rather than a prescribed punishment. This would then support the view that what is being traded is economic value rather than blood.
It does seem a bit strange to read the ancient texts as if they were modern law or even sentencing guidelines. At about the time the laws were given a number of righteous men were named judges (at the suggestion of Jethro, a priest of Midian and the father of Moses' wife, Zipporah), yet there is no mention of limits or guidelines within which these judges were to operate, except that they were to take the more difficult cases to Moses. While they certainly would have been expected to follow the Levitical law (although given the number of times the people seemed to forget all about it, I wonder if it were widely distributed), these laws may not have been complete at the time, and even if complete, it is not clear there was universal literacy among the people who had grown up slaves in Egypt. Even if every man, woman, child and household pet was completely literate, I'm not so sure there was universal access to the written texts.
We sometimes forget this, but in a strictly hierarchical society, there is no "rule of law." The law is whatever those above you in the hierarchy say it is. This is part of what was so revolutionary about the Hellenist systems. Even the Roman law was often completely reinterpreted to suit Caesar (especially in later years) but in Athens the law was a source to which a rhetor could appeal to supply strength to his warrants. I believe it is safe to say that no such system was present in Judaism, Islam or Christianity until much later. The closest would probably be the Law of the Medes. My rudimentary knowledge about this civilization makes me stop short of being sure, however.
Even if we believe the written Mosaic law was scrupulously applied to the children of Jacob, it is less clear about the role of aliens in the land, whether they be previous inhabitants who did not leave or die when the Israelites arrived from Egypt, trophies of war (especially women and children), or someone outside of the Thirteen (or twelve, or eleven, or fourteen. . .) tribes.
This is an unsettled question. Consider for example the account of the battle between the kingdoms which resulted in Judah taking many slaves. The prophet Oded, an apparently faithful prophet of God, went to the victorious army and told them to release their slaves, "for they are related to you, your brothers and sisters". Thus it is apparent that there were different rules in place for relatives than from foreigners.
Just to complicate things a bit more, at times it seems God considers Edom as related to the people, for they are also children of Abraham. At other times, however, it seems that they are given no special status.
Thus the issues surrounding the status of the actual implementation of this law versus the knowledge that it did exist may be relevant. In other words, we don't know just how this law of retribution was actually implemented--or if it ever really was implemented in the way we think of laws.
I suppose this ends up saying "we shouldn't say we know if we don't know." While unequivocality and unambiguity are wonderful traits for an encyclopedia, it might just be that this is one case in which we are better off saying "Some say. . . while others say . . ." rather than attempting to discern what was the actual practice (thus the salient practice, given the likely low level of formal literacy.
There is also the problem that the intra-textual evidence is also ambiguous. While it is clear (I believe) that Moses did not return from the dead to write his own obituary, it is not clear that any of these accounts are forgeries. Given the historical legs of this text, I would expect a careful presentation of evidence before any credible author started claiming exactly what was the approach of the people to the law.
Thanks, all, for your good work. I believe the sides might not be as far apart as they might seem.
Roy 04:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I am dissatisfied with the word "etcetera" in the alternatives section for the following reasons:
I propose rewording the section to either include all known examples, provide a reference to other examples, or to state that two examples are given here (not excluding the possibility of others, but not stating that there are others either).
What do people think? Stephen B Streater 08:48, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
This implies that all forms of "eye for an eye" punishment are simply ways for an authority to wreak vengeance on behalf of a victim. Not all legal systems employing the phrase "an eye for an eye" mandate "poetic justice" for the sake of easing victims' grief, as other parts of this article mention. HKT 21:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
This passage strikes me as rather POV:
While this should be mentioned as a possibility, it seems by no means "clear" that Jesus was not criticising the law. In its raw biblical form (and this is ultimately by far the best source to go on), Jesus' "turn the other cheek" looks like a direct rebuttal of the "eye for an eye" law, particularly as he quotes it and then goes on "but I say...". The fact that christian scholars have produced theses attempting to reconcile the two (possibly out of theological necessity), does not constitute proven fact. Or am I missing something? SteveRwanda 13:08, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
The point of what he was saying is, if you pass up the opportunity to 'even the score' with someone, maybe others will do the same when you screw up. At the same time, if you DO screw up, you should expect the full amount of what you've done to be done to you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.21.221 ( talk) 21:15, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
Come on, the section on cultural references is just silly. We're not talking about some obscure 1934 car brand where it might actually be interesting to see who's used it, we're talking about a common English phrase. This section is never even going to be remotely complete or interesting, and is just reflecting viewer biases from editors.
I'd remove it, but since I'm anonymous, it would just get shot down as vandalism. 82.95.254.249 06:36, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I don't think MLK said that about an 'eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind.' he might have, but i think gandhi coined the phrase long before.
-ramsey affifi
Lex Talionis, while its a Latin name, was a concept of ancient Sumeria. Why isn't this in the article? 08:11, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
This article has nothing to do with Arabic in particular, so having the translation of "eye for an eye" in Arabic in the introduction makes no more sense than having the translation into French, Georgian, Japanese, Quechua or any other language. It could make sense to have it in Sumerian or Akkadian, source languages for the quote, or in Hebrew, source language for the Bible. To this end, I've removed the Arabic. For those who have comments, please write them below. Be sure to add four ~ to show your signature. Interlingua 06:40, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
The origin of this phrase is from the Code of Hammurabi. However, why there were no sections or not discussed about it?
169.233.49.209 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 06:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC).
I've never heard that "turn the other cheek" was any sort of pacifism in the face of violence. The passage has largely been interpreted that the "strike" Jesus was refering to was an insult/attack on ones character or a **minor** assault, as the "strike" is described as being a "backhand" strike, one intended to insult instead of harm. The pacifism nonsense is what non-christians/non-biblical scholars have largely claimed about the passage. So was this written by someone who knew what they were even writing? 66.190.29.150 ( talk) 18:21, 8 June 2009 (UTC)
I removed this, it looked quite random. If this really was a well-known interpretation, please provide more context. 99.245.206.188 ( talk) 02:08, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
I'm going to change this sentence: "from Exodus 21:23–27 in which a person who has taken the eye of another in a fight is instructed to give his own eye in compensation."
This is not what this verse says. It clearly says that if two people are fighting and they harm a pregnant woman's baby, the one responsible will be punished with a life for a life, an eye for an eye.... Not a common understanding of the context.
Mtkoan ( talk) 04:53, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
The article "Fight Fire With Fire" was redirecting to Metallica's Ride The Lightning album. I fixed that bit, but could somebody else more experienced with this sort of thing head over to there and clean it up better than I attempted to? I figured if somebody knows a fair deal about wikipedia and older expressions of this type, I'd find them here fastest, thanks. Xanofar ( talk) 04:39, 6 April 2010 (UTC)
A reference is given to the American Jewish Orthodox movement A text appears, said to be "Paraphrased" from this association The paraphrase is misleading Here is what is actually said by them
The concept of an "eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a hand for a hand, a foot for a foot" as punishment for a physical injury is mentioned in the Written Torah in "Shemot"/Exodus 21:24. This verse has been the basis for criticism of the Torah as a harsh and inhumane document for thousands of years, all based on a misunderstanding of its meaning.
The Oral Law explains that what is meant is a sophisticated five-part monetary form of compensation, consisting of payment for "Damages, Pain, Medical Expenses, Incapacitation, and Mental Anguish" - which underlie many modern "advanced" legal codes? And the expression, "An eye for an eye, etc." means that that is what the perpetrator deserves, if not for the mercy of the Torah and its Author. Ah, you ask, how do you know the Torah means that, and is not to be taken literally? Because the Torah says, "Do not take a ransom for the life of a Murderer, who is wicked to the extent that he must die"; for the murderer, there is no monetary amount that is sufficient to grant him atonement in the eyes of G-d! Only payment with his life will secure that atonement! But for other forms of injury, we will take millions of dollars from the criminal, as a ransom for his eye, hand, or foot; and as atonement, hopefully rendering him a poor man, for his terrible crime!
The text in the Wikipedia article should be amended to "Paraphrase" the Orthodox view accurately!!
Historygypsy ( talk) 13:58, 20 June 2010 (UTC)
I'd like to direct attention to the following sentence:
"Under the right conditions, such as the ability for all actors to participate in an iterative fashion, the "eye for an eye" punishment system has a mathematical basis in the Tit for tat game theory strategy."
I'd propose to delete this enigmatic remark. There might be some truth in it. But as it stands, it either needs some expansion - which would be quite inappropriate in the context - or left out. Collini ( talk) 22:55, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
Your article says "eye for eye" IS in the Hebrew Bible and does NOT occur in the Hebrew Bible. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jim club ( talk • contribs) 18:03, 11 November 2010 (UTC)
I understand the desire to use the more understandable and more widely known "eye for an eye" but the scholarly and legal term is "lex talionis". I have been searching in Google books for sources to use in the "Eye for an eye" section of Judaism and violence. The most commonly used phrase is "lex talionis" although some sources use both. Generally, they will say "lex talionis" and then explain that this is "eye for an eye" but then they will use "lex talionis" in subsequent sentences. There is even one source that says "Eye for an eye" or "lex talionis" as it is referred to in Near East studies. Any objections to moving this article to Lex talionis? -- Richard S ( talk) 04:57, 10 December 2010 (UTC)
I agree. Lex Talionis redirects here, which is ridiculous. The academic concept is "lex talionis" and the article should be called that. Alphachimera ( talk) 18:31, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
Agree with a change, the article name should be: "The Law of Talion"(common English term), "eye 4 an eye" seems to me like christian vandalism to force their pov/beliefs/"sacred texts" over everyone(something I know and experience on my everyday, thus I can spot it right on sight), the concept and name is largely know as "the law of talion", just look at the articles in Dutch, Spanish, Italian and the vast majority of languages, the name goes Lex Talionis or "law of talion". Why the article should be named "eye 4 an eye" when is not the original and real name at all?-- FaustoLG ( talk) 05:02, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
I changed this from "eye under eye", which makes little to no sense in English, to "an eye in place of an eye". I'd say this is justified as a literal translation: 1) The indefinite pronoun "a(n)", which is necessary in English, is implicit in Hebrew, which has only a definite pronoun. Thus, the literal translation of the noun "ayin" is "an eye", as opposed to "ha-ayin", which would be "the eye". 2) The preposition tachath, which sometimes is used to mean "underneath", more generally means "in (the) place of". There are many instances in the Hebrew Bible of this word used in contexts where the translation "underneath" simply would not make sense. JudahH ( talk) 07:54, 22 April 2011 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: no move. -- tariqabjotu 14:46, 5 July 2013 (UTC)
Eye for an eye → Lex talionis – The academic concept is called "lex talionis," the vernacular phrase "eye for an eye" should redirect to the academic concept, not the other way around (currently, lex talionis redirects to "eye for an eye." This article even concedes that "Eye for an Eye" is actually called "mirror punishment" which is an existing article. Moreover, Wikipedia article naming conventions require the page to be called what it is referred to in "notable" sources, a quick search on Google Books confirms a plethora of scholarly interest in "lex talionis." Thank you for your consideration. Alphachimera ( talk) 18:38, 28 June 2013 (UTC)
I am again reverting an edit that falsely adds the claim that Gandhi made a related statement ending something like "makes the whole world blind." Please do not add content to this article that attributes this without reviewing and addressing the available research, particularly as described at wikiquote:Mahatma Gandhi and at [3]. There is currently no evidence that indicates when and where Gandhi created the quotation and considerable evidence that, in fact, he did not. — Danorton ( talk) 04:14, 20 December 2013 (UTC)
A murder for a drawing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.78.75.150 ( talk) 09:52, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
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The article discusses the principle in relation to various legal codes but forgets about its relation to feuding. In many cultures, injured parties had the option to either seek legal redress or exact revenge. In that situation, the "eye for an eye" principle should be thought of to moderate the scope of the revenge. These kind of "parallel" justice systems were common in all parts of the world. ImTheIP ( talk) 23:25, 1 October 2017 (UTC)
I removed the erroneously claim that lex talionis means "law of the claw." It doesn't. The phrase comes from talio, which in Lewis and Short's Latin dictionary is "a punishment similar and equal to the injury sustained, like for like, retaliation in kind," not from talus, ankle-bone. If it were "law of the claw," it would be lex tali. MASingerND ( talk) 17:18, 11 September 2020 (UTC)
This concept is also Islamic? The articles should link to reach other better. Irtapil ( talk) 00:07, 25 December 2023 (UTC)