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Most biographies of Balzac (including — in order of publication date — Floyd, Maurois, Gerson, and Robb) spell her name "Eveline" (sometimes with an É, other times without an accent), as does the first footnote in the original Lettres à L'Étrangère. Lawton (1910) uses "Evelina", but it's clearly in the minority (and that text is far from scholarly).
Can anyone explain why it's "Ewelina" here? Would anyone object to moving it to "Éveline"? Scartol • Tok 17:55, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Ewelina Hańska after discussion and approval vote below. This was the most well-supported alternative; I thank everyone involved for your thoughtful participation. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:30, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks in advance for your input. Scartol • Tok 22:58, 18 June 2011 (UTC)Google Books gives 0 hits for "Eveline Hańska", which seems a weird mixture of anglicized/frenchified first name and proper Polish surname (with a diacritic). It seems that GBooks has finally and very recently implemented a diacritic search, so we can look at some numbers. "Eveline Hanska" gives us 114 hits, sans diacritics. If we want to use diacritics, let's go all the way for Évelyne Hańska (GBooks gives 5 hits for that). I'd personally strongly prefer "Ewelina Hańska", the proper Polish name (84 Google Book hits), which is also used on French Wikipedia (fr:Ewelina Hańska), and of course on Polish Wiki (pl:Ewelina Hańska). Some other variants that I'd not recommend, but are nonetheless more popular than the current 0 hits variant, include "Evelina Hanska" (184 hits), "Evalina Hanska" (2 hits).
I'll set something up, ping a couple of WikiProjects, and see what happens. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Please indicate first choice, other choices if applicable, and a brief reason for your choice. Any choices missing may be added by any editor at any time. Discussion may be added wherever.
comments
Polish Biographical Dictionary (PSB), however, gives her date of birth as 24 December 1800, old style. I have to go the Wiknic now, so I'll see if I can find a working converter later (but please do so before if you can). Also, we need to deal with "Pierrot, p. 14. His certainty is cited to an entry for Adam Rzewuski in the Dictionary of Polish Biography which gives his birth date as 24 December 1804. Eveline was born roughly one year earlier." First, is Dictionary of Polish Biography PSB? This needs to be clarified. Second, Who says that "Eveline was born roughly one year earlier"? Pierrot? PSB? Clarification needed. (Also, note the interesting date convergence - both would be 24 December? Is Pierrot date Old Style?) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Cleaning family's mess: not all the names have been stanardized to Polish variant, so I've done it myself, I also "detranslated" two names of relatives (husband) from French into their proper Polish names, per PSB and [2]. I gather that the French authors have the traditional and international preference (found in older sources) to translate the names into their own (French) languages, sigh.
I added a sentence that clearly lists her brothers and sisters. The three that have articles on pl wiki are linked (Adam, Henryk, Karolina), with no prejudice to others being linked.
I removed "Her sister Catherine married Prince Wilhelm Radziwiłł at the age of 15 and later became known as an author.<ref>Cronin, pp. 154–155; Pierrot pp. 23–27 and 49–55. Princess Radziwiłł said – in a letter reproduced in Floyd, pp. 203–204 – that she was "quite sure" Eveline was born in 1801 of the Julian calendar.</ref>" As far as I can tell, Catherine Radziwill, nee Katarzyna Rzewuska, was not her sister, but her niece (daughter of her brother Adam). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
The article claims that Ewelina "born to Count Adam Wawrzyniec Rzewuski and his wife, Countess Justyna Rzewuska". I think that the term (pl:hrabia) an error. Let's see: it is not mention in his article on pl Wikipedia, not in the genealology page (
[3]), nor, finally, in PSB. Now, Polish-Lithuanian Commowealth, even under the partitions, had a plethora of unique titles (see
Officials in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), which are hard to translate (which is why most of them have articles like
starosta or
cześnik, rather then translations). Add to it the fact that Polish nobility often refused to recognize foreign titles, which made some more elitist, but then some were given (particularly in the 18th and 19th centuries, creating real Polish counts and such) - long story short, Polish nobility title are a mess, and some Western authors who don't realize this often will abuse terms like Count or Prince. I think this is the case here. PSB gives her parents the following titles: Adam Wawrzyniec, "kasztelan witebski" (
castellan of
Vitebsk) and Justyna Rdułtowska, "chorążanka nowogrodzka" (daughter of
chorąży of Novograd). Sejm website notes that her father was "marszałek szlachty gubernii mohilewskiej" (
marszałek of the
Mogilev Governorate
szlachta). Pl wikipedia confirms that, gives the exact dates for his castellancy (1790-1793, likely ended with the
Second Partition of Poland). It also notes he was a "Russian senator", a bit imprecise title here. I suggest that for now we remove the Count/Countess titles from the article, and replace it with the PSB sourced castellan of Vitebsk for the father; and the marshal if you feel like sourcing to the website (seems reliable). I'd have to look at a more reliable bio for more titles (Polski Słownik Biograficzny 27699: t. 34 s. 94 RZEWUSKI Adam Wawrzyniec (1760-1825) poseł, pisarz polityczny), but I think for the daughter article this should be good enough. PS. PSB does give her first husband (missing an article on pl wiki, Polski Słownik Biograficzny 8212: t. 9 s. 287 HAŃSKI Wacław (1782-1841) marszałek szlachty wołyńskiej (
[4]) as "hr.", the abbreviations for the hrabia (count), so at this point I am was open to concluding that she became a countess by marrying a count - but certainly she was not born a countess. PS. Jerzy Mniszech, her daughter's Anna's husband, was a count. Jerzy, of course, not anglicized George... PPS. PSB entry on Wacław Hański has no mention on him being count, sigh. I am having hard time finding whether he had the title. Btw, her brother Adam received the title of Count in 1856, which does confirm further her family didn't have it originally. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
talk
19:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Reading the PSB entry, here are some suggestions and issues to be clarified:
It goes without saying, but this article is written well enough for B-class standard. Other than tiny details, lack of discussion of literary significance is a major issue remaining for GA+ level IMHO. I'd like to see improvement in density of references, but I'll not object due to that (I however cannot fully support the article for that reason... perhaps I will do a weak support vote, I'll have to think about it). Either way, very good job (but in future please consider referencing all sentences). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:00, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tea with toast ( talk • message • contribs • count • logs • email) 00:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Thus far, I am impressed by the depth of information and the number of references used. There are a few areas of confusion that I would like to have worked out before I pass my review.
Please address these issues, and then I will continue with the review. -- Tea with toast (話) 00:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
![]() | Ewelina Hańska has been listed as one of the History good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
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![]() | This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
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Most biographies of Balzac (including — in order of publication date — Floyd, Maurois, Gerson, and Robb) spell her name "Eveline" (sometimes with an É, other times without an accent), as does the first footnote in the original Lettres à L'Étrangère. Lawton (1910) uses "Evelina", but it's clearly in the minority (and that text is far from scholarly).
Can anyone explain why it's "Ewelina" here? Would anyone object to moving it to "Éveline"? Scartol • Tok 17:55, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved to Ewelina Hańska after discussion and approval vote below. This was the most well-supported alternative; I thank everyone involved for your thoughtful participation. - GTBacchus( talk) 05:30, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks in advance for your input. Scartol • Tok 22:58, 18 June 2011 (UTC)Google Books gives 0 hits for "Eveline Hańska", which seems a weird mixture of anglicized/frenchified first name and proper Polish surname (with a diacritic). It seems that GBooks has finally and very recently implemented a diacritic search, so we can look at some numbers. "Eveline Hanska" gives us 114 hits, sans diacritics. If we want to use diacritics, let's go all the way for Évelyne Hańska (GBooks gives 5 hits for that). I'd personally strongly prefer "Ewelina Hańska", the proper Polish name (84 Google Book hits), which is also used on French Wikipedia (fr:Ewelina Hańska), and of course on Polish Wiki (pl:Ewelina Hańska). Some other variants that I'd not recommend, but are nonetheless more popular than the current 0 hits variant, include "Evelina Hanska" (184 hits), "Evalina Hanska" (2 hits).
I'll set something up, ping a couple of WikiProjects, and see what happens. - GTBacchus( talk) 00:24, 3 July 2011 (UTC)
Please indicate first choice, other choices if applicable, and a brief reason for your choice. Any choices missing may be added by any editor at any time. Discussion may be added wherever.
comments
Polish Biographical Dictionary (PSB), however, gives her date of birth as 24 December 1800, old style. I have to go the Wiknic now, so I'll see if I can find a working converter later (but please do so before if you can). Also, we need to deal with "Pierrot, p. 14. His certainty is cited to an entry for Adam Rzewuski in the Dictionary of Polish Biography which gives his birth date as 24 December 1804. Eveline was born roughly one year earlier." First, is Dictionary of Polish Biography PSB? This needs to be clarified. Second, Who says that "Eveline was born roughly one year earlier"? Pierrot? PSB? Clarification needed. (Also, note the interesting date convergence - both would be 24 December? Is Pierrot date Old Style?) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 15:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Cleaning family's mess: not all the names have been stanardized to Polish variant, so I've done it myself, I also "detranslated" two names of relatives (husband) from French into their proper Polish names, per PSB and [2]. I gather that the French authors have the traditional and international preference (found in older sources) to translate the names into their own (French) languages, sigh.
I added a sentence that clearly lists her brothers and sisters. The three that have articles on pl wiki are linked (Adam, Henryk, Karolina), with no prejudice to others being linked.
I removed "Her sister Catherine married Prince Wilhelm Radziwiłł at the age of 15 and later became known as an author.<ref>Cronin, pp. 154–155; Pierrot pp. 23–27 and 49–55. Princess Radziwiłł said – in a letter reproduced in Floyd, pp. 203–204 – that she was "quite sure" Eveline was born in 1801 of the Julian calendar.</ref>" As far as I can tell, Catherine Radziwill, nee Katarzyna Rzewuska, was not her sister, but her niece (daughter of her brother Adam). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 19:48, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
The article claims that Ewelina "born to Count Adam Wawrzyniec Rzewuski and his wife, Countess Justyna Rzewuska". I think that the term (pl:hrabia) an error. Let's see: it is not mention in his article on pl Wikipedia, not in the genealology page (
[3]), nor, finally, in PSB. Now, Polish-Lithuanian Commowealth, even under the partitions, had a plethora of unique titles (see
Officials in the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth), which are hard to translate (which is why most of them have articles like
starosta or
cześnik, rather then translations). Add to it the fact that Polish nobility often refused to recognize foreign titles, which made some more elitist, but then some were given (particularly in the 18th and 19th centuries, creating real Polish counts and such) - long story short, Polish nobility title are a mess, and some Western authors who don't realize this often will abuse terms like Count or Prince. I think this is the case here. PSB gives her parents the following titles: Adam Wawrzyniec, "kasztelan witebski" (
castellan of
Vitebsk) and Justyna Rdułtowska, "chorążanka nowogrodzka" (daughter of
chorąży of Novograd). Sejm website notes that her father was "marszałek szlachty gubernii mohilewskiej" (
marszałek of the
Mogilev Governorate
szlachta). Pl wikipedia confirms that, gives the exact dates for his castellancy (1790-1793, likely ended with the
Second Partition of Poland). It also notes he was a "Russian senator", a bit imprecise title here. I suggest that for now we remove the Count/Countess titles from the article, and replace it with the PSB sourced castellan of Vitebsk for the father; and the marshal if you feel like sourcing to the website (seems reliable). I'd have to look at a more reliable bio for more titles (Polski Słownik Biograficzny 27699: t. 34 s. 94 RZEWUSKI Adam Wawrzyniec (1760-1825) poseł, pisarz polityczny), but I think for the daughter article this should be good enough. PS. PSB does give her first husband (missing an article on pl wiki, Polski Słownik Biograficzny 8212: t. 9 s. 287 HAŃSKI Wacław (1782-1841) marszałek szlachty wołyńskiej (
[4]) as "hr.", the abbreviations for the hrabia (count), so at this point I am was open to concluding that she became a countess by marrying a count - but certainly she was not born a countess. PS. Jerzy Mniszech, her daughter's Anna's husband, was a count. Jerzy, of course, not anglicized George... PPS. PSB entry on Wacław Hański has no mention on him being count, sigh. I am having hard time finding whether he had the title. Btw, her brother Adam received the title of Count in 1856, which does confirm further her family didn't have it originally. --
Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus|
talk
19:58, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Reading the PSB entry, here are some suggestions and issues to be clarified:
It goes without saying, but this article is written well enough for B-class standard. Other than tiny details, lack of discussion of literary significance is a major issue remaining for GA+ level IMHO. I'd like to see improvement in density of references, but I'll not object due to that (I however cannot fully support the article for that reason... perhaps I will do a weak support vote, I'll have to think about it). Either way, very good job (but in future please consider referencing all sentences). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 22:00, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Tea with toast ( talk • message • contribs • count • logs • email) 00:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Thus far, I am impressed by the depth of information and the number of references used. There are a few areas of confusion that I would like to have worked out before I pass my review.
Please address these issues, and then I will continue with the review. -- Tea with toast (話) 00:00, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria