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First and foremost let us get the term defined, let us tell the viewing public what the meaning of this word is. Then and after that would be the time to tell of how this group uses the word and what it means within medicine, within psychiatry, within Scientology, etc. An idea might be controversial but until a good understading of the seed of any controversy is established, a person can not understand the various sides. Let's get a good definition as an introduction to this topic. Terryeo 19:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Why do we negative information in the introduction, "Engram is not to be confused with Enneagram?" Engram should not be confused with "enema," either or thousands of other ideas but what need is there for a paragraph telling about what "Enneagram" is? I'm going to delete that because it is negative information used to introduce a subject instead of information that tells what a subject is. Terryeo 01:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The article says that other groups copied Dianetics and used the word "engram." But it is not clear if those groups used only the word or if their use of the word has to do with physical changes of the brain and body. While the dictionary defines engram as a posited change in the brains or nerves of a body as a memory storage sort of system, Dianetics doesn't address physical change. Do those groups posit physical change or do they copy Dianetics concept? Then how exactly did they copy, that is not spelled out at all well. Terryeo 01:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't myself know how those other groups you mention use the word "engram" but if they use it in the same way then the later portion of "dianetics, controversy" might be valid. Certianly we are talking about a "posited" and not a proven, scientific fact, are we not ? Terryeo 14:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion we should remove the section that elaborate the use of engram in Dianetics. Otherwise, should we also expand the article to also go on explaining the use of the engram concept in Neuro-linguistic_programming and Erhard_Seminars_Training? I think this article should leave the definition of this word by pseudoscientific theories to their respective page. A mention that engram is also used in other pseudoscientific theories in the introduction should be enough. Povmec 15:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
1. The introduction defines the term and topic and context, and 2. The introduction prepares the reader for further detail. So why don't we just stick with that, introduce the subject and then afterwards we can introduce whether it is science, non-science, pseudoscience, mystery, or fairy tale, okay? Terryeo 18:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed this information that was added by HeadleyDown. see Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. This is NOT a central concept in NLP. " NLP or Neurolinguistic programming also makes similar use of the use of the engram concept (Drenth 2003) [2] especially in relation to the clearing or treatment of traumas (Andreas & Faulkner, 1994)." References:
The engram is a central concept of neuroscience and psychology amongst other related subjects. It is also used in NLP as a concept, and it is explicitly mentioned using the term "engram". I understand that scientology and NLP have hijacked the idea, but that does not give them supreme claim to the engram concept. The article needs to be expanded to include neuroscience and psychology's use of the term.
HeadleyDown 04:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree this article needs expanding. NLP and Scientology use the concept, and we can expand it to include science. I understand why Comaze wants to act against NPOV and hide the nlp refs. He has an extremely strong agenda to promote NLP and seems to want to use wikipedia as an NLP spamsite. The evidence is all over the NLP article history. Bookmain 04:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
NLP prefers computationalism (Turing Machines). It does not use the engram concept at all. This has been discussed in depth at Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. -- Comaze 09:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
And consensus has it that the engram is a core concept in theoretical NLP. Comaze is presenting inaccurate info, so I am reverting HeadleyDown 11:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I am preparing a mediation request that also covers this document. Thanks -- Comaze 03:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I've checked some reliable sources and have found that engram is not used widely used in Neuroscience (as HeadleyDown said in the comments of [3] this reversion). -- Comaze 11:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Cite the sources HeadleyDown 12:03, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment. I am responding to the RFC that appears on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, natural science, and technology. It's not clear to me what specific statement is disputed here, but the RFC asked "Is engram widely use in Neuroscience?". First of all, I do think the burden is on those claiming that it IS. Secondly, the term "widely" is open to interpretation. Thirdly, a PubMed search of "engram" gets 168 hits, indicating that it is used. Edwardian 21:38, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Edwardian. In that case, here are some refs:
Regards HeadleyDown 06:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley. Engram is a well used term in all these subjects. It is one of the first things you learn in college level neuroscience courses. The fact it appears in so many glossaries demonstrates the fact already. DaveRight 07:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello
Faxx 22:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC) Perhaps you would like to identify yourself by some kind of name. That may help us keep track of ideas and views.
HeadleyDown 14:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
No sooner said than done mate Faxx 22:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the bibliography -- I'll consult it to elucidate issues relative to oracle-shown historical images carried in human memory as mental 'calling cards'.
Beadtot 10/18/2005 05:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I found "engram" used in a number of neuroscience journals. A Google search returned mainly references to Scientology (apart from a sports-person named "Engram"), and I think the Scientology use should be kept distinguished from the neuroscience use; the meaning is not the same. The term is not used in the original books about NLP, but it would be accurate to say that some writers about NLP have used the term. A search of usenet:alt.psychology.nlp did produce a very few occasional uses of the term in the very large amount of discussion there. -- Enlad 23:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
An engram is a visual pattern that is stored in the brain -- the memory of some significant event locked into the memory as the behavioral pattern(s) demonstrated during the event. Some life-threatening or emotionally-disturbing engrams remain within short-term memory affecting eyesight which is corrected with eyeglass or contact lenses. The modern use of laser vision correction causes 'flight or fight' reactions in the subject and just might be intended to disperse longtime deeply-held engrams. Beadtot 10/18/2005 05:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Sounds kind of interesting. Do you have any sources for this info? Regards HeadleyDown 17:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Your objections are unwarrented. I provided information to this article, and I have faith in all editors here except for you and Comaze. They foster science and cooperative editing. You foster pseudoscience and obtuse argument as a method of promoting or whitewashing NLP. Your abusive tone has been noted. Refer to the NPOV article. HeadleyDown 02:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
As you know, data about people with vision problems is routinely pooled and evaluated within the medical professions. Where such information pools overlap with client experiences pools, such experiences can be just-as-routinely plucked and documented under the aegis of some willing Ph.D. -- which is how new terminology enters the professions.
The word 'engram' is one such term, and the opportunity to contribute experience about engrams here in 'Wikipedia' might well be routed into the professional literature. A formal study which provides such engram definition afore-mentioned and queries people with vision problems about any such 'ingrained patterns' has not yet been conducted, or just such a source would be available and quotable. 207.200.116.135 18:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC) 10/19/2005 18:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC) beadtot
I've taken the first paragraph, which was quite good, and used it as the basis for an introduction, adding only a second paragraph that explains alternate uses or similar terms. The remainer I've left "as is", unchanged, split into "overview" (scientific view) and "scientology/dianetics" (L Ron Hubbard view).
I do not know the field (although fairly well read on brain/mind in general), so I haven't added or removed any information that wasn't in the article, except one citation on the origin of the term and definition, which is a direct quote. FT2 14:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraph from the article:
Maeterlinck, in discussing theories which attempt to explain 'memory' in termites as well as the other 'social' insects (ants, bees etc.), uses the phrase "engrammata upon the individual meme" (Maeterlinck, 1927, p.198). Webster's Collegiate dictionary defines an engram as "a memory trace; specif.: a protoplasmic change in neural tissue hypothesized to account for persistence of memory". Note that Maeterlinck explains that he obtained his phrase from the "German philosopher" Richard Semon. [4]
The article cited contains contradictory data, and is, itself, mostly without citation. It seems preoccupied with accusing Richard Dawkins of plagiarism, which is pretty funny considering that the only demonstrated plagiarist in this matter is Maurice Maeterlinck himself.
First of all, the cited article is confused as to whether it is referring to The Soul of the White Ant, or The Life of the White Ant. These are different texts. The Soul of the White Ant (Die Siel van die Mier, in Afrikaans) was first published in 1925, and it was authored by Eugene Marais. It received poor circulation and was plagiarized by Maeterlinck, who first re-published it as The Life of the White Ant (La Vie des Termites, in French) in 1926 (not 1927) and claimed that it was an original work. I cannot find a copy of Soul in Afrikaans, but the English version contains neither the string "engram" nor the string "meme". Perhaps unsurprisingly, I cannot find a single copy if Life in either French or English that doesn't want $25 for my trouble. So I will leave it to someone with more inclination to determine if these two strings exist within it. My money says they don't. Not that it is relevant. The term "engram" does not derive from Maeterlinck in any way, shape, or form.
Mr. Laurent's research is obviously superficial, and highly questionable given the contradictions that have been shown to exist. He seems interested mainly in saying that Richard Dawkins is a big fat idiot, and suggests that he is intentionally ignoring Maeterlinck. Under the circumstances, I would ignore him too. For that matter, I would also ignore Mr. Laurent. I contend that if someone wishes this to remain in the article, they find a better source than the "Journal of Memetics", especially when it is a question of etymology. It surprises me that there even is a journal of memetics, and it's quite ridiculous. But there are lots of theology journals, too, so I suppose it's not exactly abnormal.
This neuroscience, psychology, scientology, nlp related stub could do with expanding. -- HeadleyDown 09:21, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
HeadlessDown, There is no connection between NLP and scientology other than in your own ludicrous ravings. You and your sockpuppets already lost the argument about your INVENTED connection between NLP and Dianetics/Scientology. Everyone needs to be alert for this jackass inserting lies to promote some sort of agenda which he has.
Attack ignored. Any effort to respond is simply a waste of kb. HeadleyDown 10:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph:
According to Dianetics an engram is a recording in the mind that occurs when a person is unconscious. This recording contains the versions of the memories and pain the person would have acquired had they been conscious. This is definition is not widely used in the scientific community.
That information is not verified, it is uncited and would require at least one and probably two citations because on one hand it talks about what an engram is according to Dianetics and on the other hand is states that definition is not widely used in the scientific community.
I know the first statement to be misleading because it spells out only a tiny bit of the characteristics which make an engram (in Dianetics) different from a normal, everyday memory. The second sentence is plain false and I post it here, cite it or it stays here and doesn't appear on the article page. This is per Wikipedia:Verifiability. The third sentence may or may not be true but it is neither cited nor is its context given. Besides which, the person who posted it wasn't even signed in (IP address). Terryeo 17:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Removing this Series Template from across the Scientology related pages. This is not correct usage of Series Templates per the guidelines. They were set up to show the history of countries and were different articles form a sequential series. This is not the case with the Scientology pages, which are random pages on different topics – not a sequence of any kind. Wiki’s definition of a series is: “In a general sense, a series is a related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence).” Nuview, 15:00, 10 January 2006 (PST)
I believe the big label on scientology should be removed. The engram is primarily a scientific term. Just because Hubbard hijacked it and misunderstood it, it does not mean we should have a big yellow ad for scientology on the article. A pseudoscience section on the article can handle it very well, together with all the other new age claptrap.
Camridge 05:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Just a heads up to people interested in improving this, you can find and search the full text for old issues of Mind at: [5] - FrancisTyers 23:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is the phrase "...the little-known but influential memory researcher Richard Semon" used? I have no idea who this guy is, but I'm not a neuropsychologist. "Little-known" seems like a value judgment to me, rather than an established fact. B. Polhemus ( talk) 05:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
In view of the current editing situation I wouldn't dare to write in this entry, but wish to suggest deleting "The existence of neurologically defined engrams is not significantly disputed".
Matters arising, or rather just surfacing in English as it seems, are showing the existence and academic consideration of technical alternatives to the engram's concepts. I found it by reading [6] and references therein.
This fact is in my view enough to suggest the convenience (and property) in leaving the initial paragraph just ending more or less as follows:
Dave 200.42.95.185 21:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
As engram can be a misleading term, due to pseudoscientific popular psychology treating it as a subconscious potential, it is important to allow a quick clarifying comparison on the article between the scientific and the pseudoscientific. The present arrangement is very useful as it allows a quick glance to see that the engram is a neurological construct in science, and a vague notion of human potential and subconscious power within pseudoscience. There's nothing wrong with making these quick clarifying comparison sections in an encyclopedia. Its common practice. The only reason Comaze wants to delete it off the face of the article is so that he can whitewash NLP (which he has been doing for about 9 months already). Such censorship is only useful for muddying knowledge in an encyclopedia and helping to promote the charlatan's vested interests. Regards HeadleyDown 09:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see WP:RPA. -- Comaze 11:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Can we determine what definition Sinclair and Bray are using when discussing engrams. Originally it was thought Sinclair and Bray were using the neuropsychology definition. However, recent changes on the NLP page suggest that Sinclair and Bray use the Dianetics version. Also what definition does Drenth use? On the disambiguation page there is no need for the separate definition for Neuro-linguistic programming because the authors are either refering to engram (neuropsychology) or engram (Dianetics). There is no need for engram (NLP). Either way the term (engram) is not used in original or mainstream NLP publications -- and the ambiguity is being used by a group of socks to prop up a weak connection betweem NLP and Dianetics (see WP:NOR). -- Comaze 11:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Drenth has written in depth about pseudoscience as you well know Comaze. You may well be dumb, but you cannot play dumb on wikipedia. If you don't get it, tough! NLP is a fringe practice, and there is no defined mainstream. As you know, NLP is based on a 5 senses model of human learning, which uses the term subconscious in ALL the literature, with both explicit and implicit reference to engrams in the subconscious mind. Neurophysiology makes reference to engrams in the nerves of the brain. The difference is enormous. Science takes precedence over pseudoscience in wikipedia NPOV policy, and science must be used as a measure to clarify pseudoscience. If science and pseudoscience are presented on the same article, the reader will benefit in being able to clearly distinguish between the two. No matter! I am writing this for the benefit of those other than Comaze because Comaze has heard all this before umpteen times on the NLP page, and the result is the same. He is only here to censor facts. Comaze! The explanations concerning NLP, and its uncanny similarity to Scientology/Dianetics will be expanded whenever you make any deletions to the facts here. The reason for expansion is to fully explain to mindless zealots, censors, and commercial promoters such as your self that wikipedia will present the facts, even if they are objectionable to you or against your own promotional interests. HeadleyDown 11:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks like brand-new user JimmyT has been busy. One of his edit summaries to this article states: "Dianetics was based on early research, Scientology contains the later developments and is a religious philosophy, not "pseudoscience". This Hubbardian kind of logic won't wash. There is nothing in mainstream Science journals that has ever validated Dianetics, much less Scientology. wikipediatrix 16:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Dianetics was certainly Hubbard's "fiction science" and it tended to contort the early research on engrams, and combine this with pretty much occult principles (out demons out) in order to generate a group of "compliant" individuals. As it says in the scientology literature (and in wikipedia), scientology uses dianetics. Scientology is only officially a religion in a few countries. Most other places its labeled a cult or psychocult. For the sake of clarity, some small mention of this can be made in the article. Immediate comparison is important for the sake of clarity. The miss-used engram concept deserves it. HeadleyDown 13:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
What "edit war" are you speaking of in your most recent edit summary to Engram (neuropsychology)? -- JimmyT 10:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC) moved from my user talk page -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a point I'm curious on; perhaps someone can clarify it for me (and if for me, then quite likely for the article as well.) I had heard that the memory RNA hypothesized by O'Connell was considered a "chemical engram". However, the article as it's currently written describes the engram concept in a way that seems to preclude this possibility, describing it as specifically a change to the tissues themselves. Which of these is accurate? -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The section previously called Neuro-Linguitic Programming, EST contained ambiguous;
It's unclear whether or not ideas such as past lives, etc pertained to both NLP and EST or merely one and not the other. Further more nothing seems to be sourced or reference in regards to EST and those assertions. The concepts have been seperated, bulleted and other concepts have been added as well, making a heading change necessary. The POV dispute has been removed, with the ambiguity which was in liklihood part of that dispute. Doc_Pato 1:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
This post is just for the record in case anyone here has had issues with the named editor or others editing similarly on this article. The following editors are as of June 5 2006, blocked indefinitely under any name:
It is not confirmed whether other editors are also in the same sockpuppet/meatpuppet group. They may be. It may also help to be alert in general, to new editors and repeat behavior. Reversion of heavy duty POV editing and forged cites added over many months (back to May 2005) has been needed in cleaning up that article.
Please see Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming for more, including summary of reasons and behaviors related to this.
Formal ban and block documentation at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans.
FT2 ( Talk) 14:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As it stands, the article says, "Studies have shown that declarative memories move between the limbic system, deep within the brain, and the outer, cortical regions." Is that true? It isn't backed up, as far as I can see. Do memories move? Unfree ( talk) 02:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
We should also comment about Scoville and Milner studies of damaged hippocampus and how they conflict with Lashley's work. e.g. retrograde amnesia. See See also: Penfield; Rempel-Clower et al. (1996)---- Action potential discuss contribs 01:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I wonder why the definition contains the phrase “as biophysical or biochemical changes in the brain”? Why physical? I have seen it being used without any reference to any physical trace, as e.g. Rudolf Steiner in GA73, p.106. So where is this definition based on? H. ( talk) 15:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I moved the text about Wilder Penfield below from the article into this talk page. There are too many problems with this text. Some sentences are hard to understand, for instance, "after much research of no known problems resulting in the brain", or "an inability to recall the details of recent awareness". Also the text as a whole is not easy to understand - what is the essential part we want to tell about Wilder Penfield's work? Finally, Penfield Wilder's lecture is used as the source, but in order to tell about his contributions, we should not (only) have a source written by him, but a secondary source. Lova Falk talk 20:06, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
*****************
Wilder Penfield stumbled upon a two localization hypotheses during his original research of electrical stimulation to discover what was taking place in the brain during a "temporal lobe epileptic episode". In 1939 after much research of no known problems resulting in the brain, he began removing the anterior half of either temporal lobe and then decided to also remove part of the hippocampus as a way to decrease epileptic episodes. No known memory loss was reported until 1951.
Two men, an engineer and a glove cutter, were severely handicapped by memory loss yet had retained the memory of their respective skills. Each of these men suffered an inability to recall the details of recent awareness and a defect of automatic perception. Through extensive research on the men, it was discovered that each had some form of deformity or injury on the other half of the hippocampus resulting in accidental bilateral removal of the hippocampus.
Through Wilder Penfield's accidental bilateral removal, it was discovered that in doing so produces retrograde and anterograde amnesia, but two localization hypotheses were also produced
A final conclusion from Wilder Penfield states that "the engram is the permanent impression left behind by psychical experience in the brain's cellular network. This memory trace makes all that came within the focus of a man's attention memorable in one way or another. It may modify or reinforce a skill. It, also, forms a part of the record of the stream of consciousness and may be summoned consciously or automatically for the purpose of recognition, interpretation, perception." [1]
References
{{
cite journal}}
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ignored (
help)
An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Memory trace. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. – Arms & Hearts ( talk) 18:27, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
To add to this article: mention of engraphy and ecphory. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 17:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
In this edit, Skeptiker added a reference to a study on Purkinje cells as if that represented some sort of evidence for physical manifestation of engram. Looking at the paper, you'll notice that it does not mention engram as a term.
Much later, in
this edit, I removed the reference with the edit summary No mention of "engram" in referenced article, so removing for
WP:SYNTHESIS
. That's long enough ago that I don't remember how I came to make this edit, but I'll stand by the reasoning.
Today, in
this edit,
SvenAERTS reverted my removal. The edit summary was We are linking the concept "engram" as regions in the brain with research showing how regions in our brain can hold units of memories: cerebellar Purkinje cells are an example. You are too severe in stating that only articles that hold a word can be used to explain. We need multi-disciplinary research input and they all have their own habits, some use engram more, others unit of memory or "memory"
. Should I assume that the use of we
here was a reference to us as Wikipedia editors?
As you can see from earlier discussions on this talk page, engram is endangered as a useful term because it has been skunked through use in various pseudoscientific pursuits. We must hold ourselves to a strict standard of evidence when making statements here and adding a paragraph of speculation that Purkinje cells, as shown through a particular study, might have some properties needed to embody engrams is going beyond that strict standard, particularly as the paper does not mention this. So, I still call this unallowed synthesis. — jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 16:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)
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First and foremost let us get the term defined, let us tell the viewing public what the meaning of this word is. Then and after that would be the time to tell of how this group uses the word and what it means within medicine, within psychiatry, within Scientology, etc. An idea might be controversial but until a good understading of the seed of any controversy is established, a person can not understand the various sides. Let's get a good definition as an introduction to this topic. Terryeo 19:58, 13 December 2005 (UTC)
Why do we negative information in the introduction, "Engram is not to be confused with Enneagram?" Engram should not be confused with "enema," either or thousands of other ideas but what need is there for a paragraph telling about what "Enneagram" is? I'm going to delete that because it is negative information used to introduce a subject instead of information that tells what a subject is. Terryeo 01:45, 14 December 2005 (UTC)
The article says that other groups copied Dianetics and used the word "engram." But it is not clear if those groups used only the word or if their use of the word has to do with physical changes of the brain and body. While the dictionary defines engram as a posited change in the brains or nerves of a body as a memory storage sort of system, Dianetics doesn't address physical change. Do those groups posit physical change or do they copy Dianetics concept? Then how exactly did they copy, that is not spelled out at all well. Terryeo 01:55, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
I don't myself know how those other groups you mention use the word "engram" but if they use it in the same way then the later portion of "dianetics, controversy" might be valid. Certianly we are talking about a "posited" and not a proven, scientific fact, are we not ? Terryeo 14:23, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
In my opinion we should remove the section that elaborate the use of engram in Dianetics. Otherwise, should we also expand the article to also go on explaining the use of the engram concept in Neuro-linguistic_programming and Erhard_Seminars_Training? I think this article should leave the definition of this word by pseudoscientific theories to their respective page. A mention that engram is also used in other pseudoscientific theories in the introduction should be enough. Povmec 15:05, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
1. The introduction defines the term and topic and context, and 2. The introduction prepares the reader for further detail. So why don't we just stick with that, introduce the subject and then afterwards we can introduce whether it is science, non-science, pseudoscience, mystery, or fairy tale, okay? Terryeo 18:55, 20 December 2005 (UTC)
I've removed this information that was added by HeadleyDown. see Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. This is NOT a central concept in NLP. " NLP or Neurolinguistic programming also makes similar use of the use of the engram concept (Drenth 2003) [2] especially in relation to the clearing or treatment of traumas (Andreas & Faulkner, 1994)." References:
The engram is a central concept of neuroscience and psychology amongst other related subjects. It is also used in NLP as a concept, and it is explicitly mentioned using the term "engram". I understand that scientology and NLP have hijacked the idea, but that does not give them supreme claim to the engram concept. The article needs to be expanded to include neuroscience and psychology's use of the term.
HeadleyDown 04:42, 12 October 2005 (UTC)
I agree this article needs expanding. NLP and Scientology use the concept, and we can expand it to include science. I understand why Comaze wants to act against NPOV and hide the nlp refs. He has an extremely strong agenda to promote NLP and seems to want to use wikipedia as an NLP spamsite. The evidence is all over the NLP article history. Bookmain 04:07, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
NLP prefers computationalism (Turing Machines). It does not use the engram concept at all. This has been discussed in depth at Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming. -- Comaze 09:56, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
And consensus has it that the engram is a core concept in theoretical NLP. Comaze is presenting inaccurate info, so I am reverting HeadleyDown 11:23, 13 October 2005 (UTC)
I am preparing a mediation request that also covers this document. Thanks -- Comaze 03:50, 15 October 2005 (UTC)
I've checked some reliable sources and have found that engram is not used widely used in Neuroscience (as HeadleyDown said in the comments of [3] this reversion). -- Comaze 11:40, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Cite the sources HeadleyDown 12:03, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Comment. I am responding to the RFC that appears on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Maths, natural science, and technology. It's not clear to me what specific statement is disputed here, but the RFC asked "Is engram widely use in Neuroscience?". First of all, I do think the burden is on those claiming that it IS. Secondly, the term "widely" is open to interpretation. Thirdly, a PubMed search of "engram" gets 168 hits, indicating that it is used. Edwardian 21:38, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks Edwardian. In that case, here are some refs:
Regards HeadleyDown 06:41, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Hi Headley. Engram is a well used term in all these subjects. It is one of the first things you learn in college level neuroscience courses. The fact it appears in so many glossaries demonstrates the fact already. DaveRight 07:20, 17 October 2005 (UTC)
Hello
Faxx 22:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC) Perhaps you would like to identify yourself by some kind of name. That may help us keep track of ideas and views.
HeadleyDown 14:15, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
No sooner said than done mate Faxx 22:22, 18 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the bibliography -- I'll consult it to elucidate issues relative to oracle-shown historical images carried in human memory as mental 'calling cards'.
Beadtot 10/18/2005 05:17, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
I found "engram" used in a number of neuroscience journals. A Google search returned mainly references to Scientology (apart from a sports-person named "Engram"), and I think the Scientology use should be kept distinguished from the neuroscience use; the meaning is not the same. The term is not used in the original books about NLP, but it would be accurate to say that some writers about NLP have used the term. A search of usenet:alt.psychology.nlp did produce a very few occasional uses of the term in the very large amount of discussion there. -- Enlad 23:40, 28 November 2005 (UTC)
An engram is a visual pattern that is stored in the brain -- the memory of some significant event locked into the memory as the behavioral pattern(s) demonstrated during the event. Some life-threatening or emotionally-disturbing engrams remain within short-term memory affecting eyesight which is corrected with eyeglass or contact lenses. The modern use of laser vision correction causes 'flight or fight' reactions in the subject and just might be intended to disperse longtime deeply-held engrams. Beadtot 10/18/2005 05:05, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Sounds kind of interesting. Do you have any sources for this info? Regards HeadleyDown 17:13, 19 October 2005 (UTC)
Akulkis. Your objections are unwarrented. I provided information to this article, and I have faith in all editors here except for you and Comaze. They foster science and cooperative editing. You foster pseudoscience and obtuse argument as a method of promoting or whitewashing NLP. Your abusive tone has been noted. Refer to the NPOV article. HeadleyDown 02:55, 16 December 2005 (UTC)
As you know, data about people with vision problems is routinely pooled and evaluated within the medical professions. Where such information pools overlap with client experiences pools, such experiences can be just-as-routinely plucked and documented under the aegis of some willing Ph.D. -- which is how new terminology enters the professions.
The word 'engram' is one such term, and the opportunity to contribute experience about engrams here in 'Wikipedia' might well be routed into the professional literature. A formal study which provides such engram definition afore-mentioned and queries people with vision problems about any such 'ingrained patterns' has not yet been conducted, or just such a source would be available and quotable. 207.200.116.135 18:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC) 10/19/2005 18:39, 19 October 2005 (UTC) beadtot
I've taken the first paragraph, which was quite good, and used it as the basis for an introduction, adding only a second paragraph that explains alternate uses or similar terms. The remainer I've left "as is", unchanged, split into "overview" (scientific view) and "scientology/dianetics" (L Ron Hubbard view).
I do not know the field (although fairly well read on brain/mind in general), so I haven't added or removed any information that wasn't in the article, except one citation on the origin of the term and definition, which is a direct quote. FT2 14:14, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
I have removed the following paragraph from the article:
Maeterlinck, in discussing theories which attempt to explain 'memory' in termites as well as the other 'social' insects (ants, bees etc.), uses the phrase "engrammata upon the individual meme" (Maeterlinck, 1927, p.198). Webster's Collegiate dictionary defines an engram as "a memory trace; specif.: a protoplasmic change in neural tissue hypothesized to account for persistence of memory". Note that Maeterlinck explains that he obtained his phrase from the "German philosopher" Richard Semon. [4]
The article cited contains contradictory data, and is, itself, mostly without citation. It seems preoccupied with accusing Richard Dawkins of plagiarism, which is pretty funny considering that the only demonstrated plagiarist in this matter is Maurice Maeterlinck himself.
First of all, the cited article is confused as to whether it is referring to The Soul of the White Ant, or The Life of the White Ant. These are different texts. The Soul of the White Ant (Die Siel van die Mier, in Afrikaans) was first published in 1925, and it was authored by Eugene Marais. It received poor circulation and was plagiarized by Maeterlinck, who first re-published it as The Life of the White Ant (La Vie des Termites, in French) in 1926 (not 1927) and claimed that it was an original work. I cannot find a copy of Soul in Afrikaans, but the English version contains neither the string "engram" nor the string "meme". Perhaps unsurprisingly, I cannot find a single copy if Life in either French or English that doesn't want $25 for my trouble. So I will leave it to someone with more inclination to determine if these two strings exist within it. My money says they don't. Not that it is relevant. The term "engram" does not derive from Maeterlinck in any way, shape, or form.
Mr. Laurent's research is obviously superficial, and highly questionable given the contradictions that have been shown to exist. He seems interested mainly in saying that Richard Dawkins is a big fat idiot, and suggests that he is intentionally ignoring Maeterlinck. Under the circumstances, I would ignore him too. For that matter, I would also ignore Mr. Laurent. I contend that if someone wishes this to remain in the article, they find a better source than the "Journal of Memetics", especially when it is a question of etymology. It surprises me that there even is a journal of memetics, and it's quite ridiculous. But there are lots of theology journals, too, so I suppose it's not exactly abnormal.
This neuroscience, psychology, scientology, nlp related stub could do with expanding. -- HeadleyDown 09:21, 16 October 2005 (UTC)
HeadlessDown, There is no connection between NLP and scientology other than in your own ludicrous ravings. You and your sockpuppets already lost the argument about your INVENTED connection between NLP and Dianetics/Scientology. Everyone needs to be alert for this jackass inserting lies to promote some sort of agenda which he has.
Attack ignored. Any effort to respond is simply a waste of kb. HeadleyDown 10:21, 18 December 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph:
According to Dianetics an engram is a recording in the mind that occurs when a person is unconscious. This recording contains the versions of the memories and pain the person would have acquired had they been conscious. This is definition is not widely used in the scientific community.
That information is not verified, it is uncited and would require at least one and probably two citations because on one hand it talks about what an engram is according to Dianetics and on the other hand is states that definition is not widely used in the scientific community.
I know the first statement to be misleading because it spells out only a tiny bit of the characteristics which make an engram (in Dianetics) different from a normal, everyday memory. The second sentence is plain false and I post it here, cite it or it stays here and doesn't appear on the article page. This is per Wikipedia:Verifiability. The third sentence may or may not be true but it is neither cited nor is its context given. Besides which, the person who posted it wasn't even signed in (IP address). Terryeo 17:29, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
Removing this Series Template from across the Scientology related pages. This is not correct usage of Series Templates per the guidelines. They were set up to show the history of countries and were different articles form a sequential series. This is not the case with the Scientology pages, which are random pages on different topics – not a sequence of any kind. Wiki’s definition of a series is: “In a general sense, a series is a related set of things that occur one after the other (in a succession) or are otherwise connected one after the other (in a sequence).” Nuview, 15:00, 10 January 2006 (PST)
I believe the big label on scientology should be removed. The engram is primarily a scientific term. Just because Hubbard hijacked it and misunderstood it, it does not mean we should have a big yellow ad for scientology on the article. A pseudoscience section on the article can handle it very well, together with all the other new age claptrap.
Camridge 05:44, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
Just a heads up to people interested in improving this, you can find and search the full text for old issues of Mind at: [5] - FrancisTyers 23:10, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
Why is the phrase "...the little-known but influential memory researcher Richard Semon" used? I have no idea who this guy is, but I'm not a neuropsychologist. "Little-known" seems like a value judgment to me, rather than an established fact. B. Polhemus ( talk) 05:10, 5 May 2011 (UTC)
In view of the current editing situation I wouldn't dare to write in this entry, but wish to suggest deleting "The existence of neurologically defined engrams is not significantly disputed".
Matters arising, or rather just surfacing in English as it seems, are showing the existence and academic consideration of technical alternatives to the engram's concepts. I found it by reading [6] and references therein.
This fact is in my view enough to suggest the convenience (and property) in leaving the initial paragraph just ending more or less as follows:
Dave 200.42.95.185 21:40, 21 January 2006 (UTC)
As engram can be a misleading term, due to pseudoscientific popular psychology treating it as a subconscious potential, it is important to allow a quick clarifying comparison on the article between the scientific and the pseudoscientific. The present arrangement is very useful as it allows a quick glance to see that the engram is a neurological construct in science, and a vague notion of human potential and subconscious power within pseudoscience. There's nothing wrong with making these quick clarifying comparison sections in an encyclopedia. Its common practice. The only reason Comaze wants to delete it off the face of the article is so that he can whitewash NLP (which he has been doing for about 9 months already). Such censorship is only useful for muddying knowledge in an encyclopedia and helping to promote the charlatan's vested interests. Regards HeadleyDown 09:20, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Please see WP:RPA. -- Comaze 11:29, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Can we determine what definition Sinclair and Bray are using when discussing engrams. Originally it was thought Sinclair and Bray were using the neuropsychology definition. However, recent changes on the NLP page suggest that Sinclair and Bray use the Dianetics version. Also what definition does Drenth use? On the disambiguation page there is no need for the separate definition for Neuro-linguistic programming because the authors are either refering to engram (neuropsychology) or engram (Dianetics). There is no need for engram (NLP). Either way the term (engram) is not used in original or mainstream NLP publications -- and the ambiguity is being used by a group of socks to prop up a weak connection betweem NLP and Dianetics (see WP:NOR). -- Comaze 11:28, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Drenth has written in depth about pseudoscience as you well know Comaze. You may well be dumb, but you cannot play dumb on wikipedia. If you don't get it, tough! NLP is a fringe practice, and there is no defined mainstream. As you know, NLP is based on a 5 senses model of human learning, which uses the term subconscious in ALL the literature, with both explicit and implicit reference to engrams in the subconscious mind. Neurophysiology makes reference to engrams in the nerves of the brain. The difference is enormous. Science takes precedence over pseudoscience in wikipedia NPOV policy, and science must be used as a measure to clarify pseudoscience. If science and pseudoscience are presented on the same article, the reader will benefit in being able to clearly distinguish between the two. No matter! I am writing this for the benefit of those other than Comaze because Comaze has heard all this before umpteen times on the NLP page, and the result is the same. He is only here to censor facts. Comaze! The explanations concerning NLP, and its uncanny similarity to Scientology/Dianetics will be expanded whenever you make any deletions to the facts here. The reason for expansion is to fully explain to mindless zealots, censors, and commercial promoters such as your self that wikipedia will present the facts, even if they are objectionable to you or against your own promotional interests. HeadleyDown 11:50, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
Looks like brand-new user JimmyT has been busy. One of his edit summaries to this article states: "Dianetics was based on early research, Scientology contains the later developments and is a religious philosophy, not "pseudoscience". This Hubbardian kind of logic won't wash. There is nothing in mainstream Science journals that has ever validated Dianetics, much less Scientology. wikipediatrix 16:23, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Dianetics was certainly Hubbard's "fiction science" and it tended to contort the early research on engrams, and combine this with pretty much occult principles (out demons out) in order to generate a group of "compliant" individuals. As it says in the scientology literature (and in wikipedia), scientology uses dianetics. Scientology is only officially a religion in a few countries. Most other places its labeled a cult or psychocult. For the sake of clarity, some small mention of this can be made in the article. Immediate comparison is important for the sake of clarity. The miss-used engram concept deserves it. HeadleyDown 13:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
What "edit war" are you speaking of in your most recent edit summary to Engram (neuropsychology)? -- JimmyT 10:19, 10 February 2006 (UTC) moved from my user talk page -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:18, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I have a point I'm curious on; perhaps someone can clarify it for me (and if for me, then quite likely for the article as well.) I had heard that the memory RNA hypothesized by O'Connell was considered a "chemical engram". However, the article as it's currently written describes the engram concept in a way that seems to preclude this possibility, describing it as specifically a change to the tissues themselves. Which of these is accurate? -- Antaeus Feldspar 15:41, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
The section previously called Neuro-Linguitic Programming, EST contained ambiguous;
It's unclear whether or not ideas such as past lives, etc pertained to both NLP and EST or merely one and not the other. Further more nothing seems to be sourced or reference in regards to EST and those assertions. The concepts have been seperated, bulleted and other concepts have been added as well, making a heading change necessary. The POV dispute has been removed, with the ambiguity which was in liklihood part of that dispute. Doc_Pato 1:41, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
This post is just for the record in case anyone here has had issues with the named editor or others editing similarly on this article. The following editors are as of June 5 2006, blocked indefinitely under any name:
It is not confirmed whether other editors are also in the same sockpuppet/meatpuppet group. They may be. It may also help to be alert in general, to new editors and repeat behavior. Reversion of heavy duty POV editing and forged cites added over many months (back to May 2005) has been needed in cleaning up that article.
Please see Talk:Neuro-linguistic programming for more, including summary of reasons and behaviors related to this.
Formal ban and block documentation at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Neuro-linguistic_programming#Documentation_of_bans.
FT2 ( Talk) 14:45, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
As it stands, the article says, "Studies have shown that declarative memories move between the limbic system, deep within the brain, and the outer, cortical regions." Is that true? It isn't backed up, as far as I can see. Do memories move? Unfree ( talk) 02:14, 11 December 2008 (UTC)
We should also comment about Scoville and Milner studies of damaged hippocampus and how they conflict with Lashley's work. e.g. retrograde amnesia. See See also: Penfield; Rempel-Clower et al. (1996)---- Action potential discuss contribs 01:17, 19 June 2009 (UTC)
I wonder why the definition contains the phrase “as biophysical or biochemical changes in the brain”? Why physical? I have seen it being used without any reference to any physical trace, as e.g. Rudolf Steiner in GA73, p.106. So where is this definition based on? H. ( talk) 15:29, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
I moved the text about Wilder Penfield below from the article into this talk page. There are too many problems with this text. Some sentences are hard to understand, for instance, "after much research of no known problems resulting in the brain", or "an inability to recall the details of recent awareness". Also the text as a whole is not easy to understand - what is the essential part we want to tell about Wilder Penfield's work? Finally, Penfield Wilder's lecture is used as the source, but in order to tell about his contributions, we should not (only) have a source written by him, but a secondary source. Lova Falk talk 20:06, 4 January 2014 (UTC)
*****************
Wilder Penfield stumbled upon a two localization hypotheses during his original research of electrical stimulation to discover what was taking place in the brain during a "temporal lobe epileptic episode". In 1939 after much research of no known problems resulting in the brain, he began removing the anterior half of either temporal lobe and then decided to also remove part of the hippocampus as a way to decrease epileptic episodes. No known memory loss was reported until 1951.
Two men, an engineer and a glove cutter, were severely handicapped by memory loss yet had retained the memory of their respective skills. Each of these men suffered an inability to recall the details of recent awareness and a defect of automatic perception. Through extensive research on the men, it was discovered that each had some form of deformity or injury on the other half of the hippocampus resulting in accidental bilateral removal of the hippocampus.
Through Wilder Penfield's accidental bilateral removal, it was discovered that in doing so produces retrograde and anterograde amnesia, but two localization hypotheses were also produced
A final conclusion from Wilder Penfield states that "the engram is the permanent impression left behind by psychical experience in the brain's cellular network. This memory trace makes all that came within the focus of a man's attention memorable in one way or another. It may modify or reinforce a skill. It, also, forms a part of the record of the stream of consciousness and may be summoned consciously or automatically for the purpose of recognition, interpretation, perception." [1]
References
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An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Memory trace. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you wish to do so. – Arms & Hearts ( talk) 18:27, 5 May 2019 (UTC)
To add to this article: mention of engraphy and ecphory. 173.88.246.138 ( talk) 17:31, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
In this edit, Skeptiker added a reference to a study on Purkinje cells as if that represented some sort of evidence for physical manifestation of engram. Looking at the paper, you'll notice that it does not mention engram as a term.
Much later, in
this edit, I removed the reference with the edit summary No mention of "engram" in referenced article, so removing for
WP:SYNTHESIS
. That's long enough ago that I don't remember how I came to make this edit, but I'll stand by the reasoning.
Today, in
this edit,
SvenAERTS reverted my removal. The edit summary was We are linking the concept "engram" as regions in the brain with research showing how regions in our brain can hold units of memories: cerebellar Purkinje cells are an example. You are too severe in stating that only articles that hold a word can be used to explain. We need multi-disciplinary research input and they all have their own habits, some use engram more, others unit of memory or "memory"
. Should I assume that the use of we
here was a reference to us as Wikipedia editors?
As you can see from earlier discussions on this talk page, engram is endangered as a useful term because it has been skunked through use in various pseudoscientific pursuits. We must hold ourselves to a strict standard of evidence when making statements here and adding a paragraph of speculation that Purkinje cells, as shown through a particular study, might have some properties needed to embody engrams is going beyond that strict standard, particularly as the paper does not mention this. So, I still call this unallowed synthesis. — jmcgnh (talk) (contribs) 16:02, 24 November 2022 (UTC)