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![]() | On 10 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Clan Ostoja to Clan of Ostoja. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with Clan Ostoja (Moscics) on 2022-08-19. The result of the discussion ( permanent link) was Merge. |
Sorry for the delay but I have personal/work commitments making editing Wikipedia impossible for the last week and difficult for the next two weeks.
Wikipedia only has four levels making it difficult to reflect importance. There are less than 400 articles which have been classified top or high out over 47,000 accessed. It seems like it warrants a higher level but if it was applied here then hundreds of other articles would have to reassessed. If you disagree then I suggest you raised it at WikiProject Poland talk page
In terms of quality then feel free to change it as you improve the article. Jniech ( talk) 14:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Best regards, Camdan ( talk) 23:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Checked B1 to B6 and it should match the quality reference given. The C-class was given on 8th of february (when the article was most a Start class article) and the article had changed considerably since then so its on B now. Help needed to improve the article to GA class.
During the B-class review for WikiProject Poland, I determined that the article seems to me to meet the criteria for the B-class. A WP:GA nomination could be considered. Good job! -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:03, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Article appears to need some input to improve readabilty. I may need some help with fact confirmation as I proceed, as the language is a little confusing in several places. FeatherPluma ( talk) 17:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC) Started a little work, at this point on the lede. Please confirm that I have not introduced unintended fact errors in the first 2 paragraphs of the article. I am going to work on this bit by bit with you, in tiny chunks. FeatherPluma ( talk) 02:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Additional edits that I should be obliged if you would check. FeatherPluma ( talk) 04:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC) The chronology of the article seems to weave about alarmingly and quite distractingly, and the spelling conventions to abruptly change from one paragraph to the next. I am working on these issues slowly and methodically. FeatherPluma ( talk) 07:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC) I have spent quite some time with this article now, and I have done some substantial but preliminary external reading. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that the article would benefit from a fairly major overhaul, with redaction of large meandering sections, some of which (e.g. the testament of the Stibors) is duplicative, as well as devolving many accumulated layerings to the respective Main Articles. I will continue to edit the numerous smaller issues for now, as there are numerous spelling, typographical, and grammtical mistakes, but ultimately more radical correction is going to be necessary. FeatherPluma ( talk) 23:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC) Clearly the lengthy section on Stibor of Stiboricz needs to be consolidated to that Main Article, with a brief outline to remain here. Moreover, the section on his son, Stibor of Beckov, should eventually go to its own new Main Article. FeatherPluma ( talk) 04:42, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
...does it really need to be here and how exactly does it help the average reader? Volunteer Marek 02:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa ( talk) 08:05, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Heraldic family Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja – Article Clan of Ostoja have been renamed to Heraldic family Ostoja without previouse consultation or discussion and it should be reverted back to "Clan of Ostoja". Reason of that is complete missunderstanding in the subject when renaming. "Heraldic families" never existed, "Heraldic Clan" did since 18th century but not before (pl: Ród heraldyczny). "Heraldic Clan" is specific term used in Poland that refere to families using same CoA but not releted to each other. There is no source or single publication to refer using term "Heraldic family". Not even in Polish language since it would be "Herladic Clans" that refere to issue of families that have been included as persons that have right to use CoA, without being members of a Clan that use such CoA. Although "Heraldic Clan" is correct interpretation, there is still no single publications or sources that use such term. In Polish, "Ród heraldyczny" means "Heraldic Clan". Term "Heraldic family" should be translated to "Heraldyczna rodzina" where rodzina=family. And Ród=Clan. Also, there is a term "Klan" in polish that refere to "Clan" and that is commonly understanded by historians and in publications as "Ród" untill end of 17th century. Usage of "Heraldic Clan" in polish become popular under and specially after the Partitions of Poland. But never "Heraldic family". Also, most of references in the article Heraldic family that should be renamed to "Heraldic Clans" or Heraldic Clans in Poland" are not acceptable as references but simple personal opinions. (talk) 01:26, 9 August 2016 (UTC) camdan (talk) 06:05, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
"Lord of Slovakia", "King Stibor" of Slovakia, "he was also the first to receive land in Slovakia", Lord of Slovakian Counties etc. What?? This article is full of absurd formulations and factual errors. What's next? Leif Erikson reached the United States by 1075. -- Norden1990 ( talk) 21:24, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
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The result of the move request was: Moved. Hadal ( talk) 14:54, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Clan Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja – the original name Clan of Ostoja have been moved to Clan Ostoja several years ago. However, in the Cathegory list of Polish Heraldic Clan's here once can see that almost all Clans are named "Clan of...". I therefore kindly ask to move to original spelling "Clan of Ostoja" camdan (talk) 13:23, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Clan Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja - consensus about moving to original name of the art. was reached 27th of September 2020. This because of other consensus regarding spelling Polish Clans, see here. Name have been redirected back to "Clan Ostoja" without any further discussion and disregarding earlier agreements. Please redirect art. back to original spelling "Clan of Ostoja". Camdan ( talk) 10:49, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. There were no herb "clans" in Poland, in the sense in which "clan" is understood in Scotland ('a traditional social unit in the Scottish Highlands, consisting of a number of families claiming a common ancestor and following the same hereditary chieftain").
I don't see any point to articles on supposed Polish herb-based "clans," as opposed to the existing individual coat-of-arms articles. But at least, if there is some putative ground for such "Polish-clan" miscellanea, the proper English wording, analogous to that of the Scottish clans, would be "Clan X," not "Clan of X." Nihil novi ( talk) 18:44, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. per consensus of the editors here weighing in. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 23:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Clan Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja – This is a technical move made on behalf of User:Camdan, as the discussion just above was malformatted. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Setting aside the likely need to rename that, it is unclear why we split those two articles; further, it is strange that Polish Wikipedia has an article on the latter but not the former. pl:Ród Ostojów (Mościców) exists but not pl:Ród Ostojów. In general, I also want to caution about notability, in some cases, such article are family genealogical fancruft, and we need to be careful to avoid WP:OR. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: With over a year to comment, it appears that this discussion has run its course and can be closed as merge. I will leave it to editors to perform the merge. Z1720 ( talk) 19:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Clan of Ostoja article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | On 10 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved from Clan Ostoja to Clan of Ostoja. The result of the discussion was moved. |
![]() | This article was nominated for merging with Clan Ostoja (Moscics) on 2022-08-19. The result of the discussion ( permanent link) was Merge. |
Sorry for the delay but I have personal/work commitments making editing Wikipedia impossible for the last week and difficult for the next two weeks.
Wikipedia only has four levels making it difficult to reflect importance. There are less than 400 articles which have been classified top or high out over 47,000 accessed. It seems like it warrants a higher level but if it was applied here then hundreds of other articles would have to reassessed. If you disagree then I suggest you raised it at WikiProject Poland talk page
In terms of quality then feel free to change it as you improve the article. Jniech ( talk) 14:12, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Best regards, Camdan ( talk) 23:09, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
Checked B1 to B6 and it should match the quality reference given. The C-class was given on 8th of february (when the article was most a Start class article) and the article had changed considerably since then so its on B now. Help needed to improve the article to GA class.
During the B-class review for WikiProject Poland, I determined that the article seems to me to meet the criteria for the B-class. A WP:GA nomination could be considered. Good job! -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:03, 12 January 2011 (UTC)
Article appears to need some input to improve readabilty. I may need some help with fact confirmation as I proceed, as the language is a little confusing in several places. FeatherPluma ( talk) 17:20, 16 September 2011 (UTC) Started a little work, at this point on the lede. Please confirm that I have not introduced unintended fact errors in the first 2 paragraphs of the article. I am going to work on this bit by bit with you, in tiny chunks. FeatherPluma ( talk) 02:56, 17 October 2011 (UTC) Additional edits that I should be obliged if you would check. FeatherPluma ( talk) 04:43, 31 October 2011 (UTC) The chronology of the article seems to weave about alarmingly and quite distractingly, and the spelling conventions to abruptly change from one paragraph to the next. I am working on these issues slowly and methodically. FeatherPluma ( talk) 07:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC) I have spent quite some time with this article now, and I have done some substantial but preliminary external reading. I am gradually coming to the conclusion that the article would benefit from a fairly major overhaul, with redaction of large meandering sections, some of which (e.g. the testament of the Stibors) is duplicative, as well as devolving many accumulated layerings to the respective Main Articles. I will continue to edit the numerous smaller issues for now, as there are numerous spelling, typographical, and grammtical mistakes, but ultimately more radical correction is going to be necessary. FeatherPluma ( talk) 23:42, 30 December 2011 (UTC) Clearly the lengthy section on Stibor of Stiboricz needs to be consolidated to that Main Article, with a brief outline to remain here. Moreover, the section on his son, Stibor of Beckov, should eventually go to its own new Main Article. FeatherPluma ( talk) 04:42, 1 January 2012 (UTC)
...does it really need to be here and how exactly does it help the average reader? Volunteer Marek 02:52, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa ( talk) 08:05, 16 August 2016 (UTC)
Heraldic family Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja – Article Clan of Ostoja have been renamed to Heraldic family Ostoja without previouse consultation or discussion and it should be reverted back to "Clan of Ostoja". Reason of that is complete missunderstanding in the subject when renaming. "Heraldic families" never existed, "Heraldic Clan" did since 18th century but not before (pl: Ród heraldyczny). "Heraldic Clan" is specific term used in Poland that refere to families using same CoA but not releted to each other. There is no source or single publication to refer using term "Heraldic family". Not even in Polish language since it would be "Herladic Clans" that refere to issue of families that have been included as persons that have right to use CoA, without being members of a Clan that use such CoA. Although "Heraldic Clan" is correct interpretation, there is still no single publications or sources that use such term. In Polish, "Ród heraldyczny" means "Heraldic Clan". Term "Heraldic family" should be translated to "Heraldyczna rodzina" where rodzina=family. And Ród=Clan. Also, there is a term "Klan" in polish that refere to "Clan" and that is commonly understanded by historians and in publications as "Ród" untill end of 17th century. Usage of "Heraldic Clan" in polish become popular under and specially after the Partitions of Poland. But never "Heraldic family". Also, most of references in the article Heraldic family that should be renamed to "Heraldic Clans" or Heraldic Clans in Poland" are not acceptable as references but simple personal opinions. (talk) 01:26, 9 August 2016 (UTC) camdan (talk) 06:05, 8 August 2016 (UTC)
"Lord of Slovakia", "King Stibor" of Slovakia, "he was also the first to receive land in Slovakia", Lord of Slovakian Counties etc. What?? This article is full of absurd formulations and factual errors. What's next? Leif Erikson reached the United States by 1075. -- Norden1990 ( talk) 21:24, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Clan Ostoja. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 17:38, 25 November 2016 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Moved. Hadal ( talk) 14:54, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
Clan Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja – the original name Clan of Ostoja have been moved to Clan Ostoja several years ago. However, in the Cathegory list of Polish Heraldic Clan's here once can see that almost all Clans are named "Clan of...". I therefore kindly ask to move to original spelling "Clan of Ostoja" camdan (talk) 13:23, 20 September 2020 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Clan Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja - consensus about moving to original name of the art. was reached 27th of September 2020. This because of other consensus regarding spelling Polish Clans, see here. Name have been redirected back to "Clan Ostoja" without any further discussion and disregarding earlier agreements. Please redirect art. back to original spelling "Clan of Ostoja". Camdan ( talk) 10:49, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
Oppose. There were no herb "clans" in Poland, in the sense in which "clan" is understood in Scotland ('a traditional social unit in the Scottish Highlands, consisting of a number of families claiming a common ancestor and following the same hereditary chieftain").
I don't see any point to articles on supposed Polish herb-based "clans," as opposed to the existing individual coat-of-arms articles. But at least, if there is some putative ground for such "Polish-clan" miscellanea, the proper English wording, analogous to that of the Scottish clans, would be "Clan X," not "Clan of X." Nihil novi ( talk) 18:44, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. per consensus of the editors here weighing in. ( closed by non-admin page mover) — Shibbolethink ( ♔ ♕) 23:41, 17 August 2022 (UTC)
Clan Ostoja → Clan of Ostoja – This is a technical move made on behalf of User:Camdan, as the discussion just above was malformatted. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:51, 10 August 2022 (UTC)
Setting aside the likely need to rename that, it is unclear why we split those two articles; further, it is strange that Polish Wikipedia has an article on the latter but not the former. pl:Ród Ostojów (Mościców) exists but not pl:Ród Ostojów. In general, I also want to caution about notability, in some cases, such article are family genealogical fancruft, and we need to be careful to avoid WP:OR. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:34, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
@ Piotrus: With over a year to comment, it appears that this discussion has run its course and can be closed as merge. I will leave it to editors to perform the merge. Z1720 ( talk) 19:33, 22 August 2023 (UTC)