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Articles says that Gooding's preferred pronouns are "she" and "they." I am wondering how to know when to use one or the other. The article as currently written switches back and forth. Are there guidelines for this? Thanks! 74.74.162.131 ( talk) 01:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
her mother told them she...is just stupid, no matter how "woke" one is. – 2. O. Boxing 01:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Gooding has recently made a Twitter thread regarding their gender identity. I wanted this information to be included, but I wasn’t sure whether it’s appropriate to include when the only reference is the thread. Gooding refers to themselves as “queer” both in terms of gender and sexuality. [1]
References
Redandsymmetry ( talk) 04:07, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Since she uses both she and they, the standard "she" should be used. This avoids unnecessary confusion -- FMSky ( talk) 00:10, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
The main argument in favor of she was:
The main contradiction in the discussion was thus whether binary pronouns should be preferred when available. Participants who thought so argued that singular they is "confusing" or "surprising", and she more "natural", with arguments largely based on intuition. Those who disagreed contradicted this argument; research was cited to show that singular they is not necessarily more confusing, to which there was no equivalently strong counterargument. I have discarded the argument that pronouns should be used according to "sex" given that it is in direct contradiction with MOS:GID. In summary, I can find no consensus that binary pronouns should be preferred over singular they. It is thus okay to use either they or she for a subject who accepts use of both they and she.
Though the above was the main subject of discussion in the RfC, it doesn't actually address the initial question: which pronouns should be used. Some participants argued that Gooding prefers they over she. Evidence provided for this includes a Twitter thread where they say that she is not fine with being called a woman. However, in that same thread they say: "I use both she and they pronouns." A valid counterargument, that was made in the discussion, is also that one can not want to be called a woman and still be okay with being called she. As such, I do not think this argument has support from this discussion.
It was also cited that Gooding lists they before she in Twitter and Instagram bios, which may be an indication of a preference. Gooding also changed the bios from "she/they" to "they/she" at some point, which was considered further evidence of a change in preference. One counterargument to this was that this kind of extrapolations is original research. It was rightly pointed out that that policy does not apply to talk pages, but it does highlight that order of pronouns when specified like this is a relatively ambiguous indicator without extra clarification, which Gooding has not made. Given this, I consider it to be plausible but not guaranteed that Gooding has a preference for they over she.
In conclusion, either she or they pronouns are acceptable in the article (binary ones should not be preferred). There is some support for preferring they over she for Gooding specifically. Given the complexities of this discussion, I will not give a simple result in bold, but there is no consensus to change to she; the article should continue using they until and unless new, compelling reasons come up. -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 12:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Celia Rose Gooding has expressed via Twitter (
[1]) and Instagram (
[2]) a preference for both she and they pronouns. Which pronouns should Wikipedia use when talking about Gooding? 22:19, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Gooding attended the Hackley School in Tarrytown, New York, with their sister, and graduated with honors in performing arts. They occasionally took leaves of absence from high school to do readings for the musical Jagged Little Pill.)
Editors are expected to make a reasonable attempt at resolving their issues before starting an RfC. To my knowledge the nominator HTGS had not discussed this topic at all before starting this RfC, and the last active discussion on this talk page reached an apparent informal consensus to use they/them in October 2022. My and others' valuable time should not be wasted on frivolous RfCs when a more straightforward local discussion would more quickly resolve the issue.Failing that, they/them should be used per MOS:GENDERID since Gooding lists "they/she" in their Twitter bio and this series of tweets. Absent any third-party sources that discuss Gooding's preferred pronouns, Twitter is a valid source per WP:ABOUTSELF. Binary pronouns are not more inherently
accessiblesince singular they has been in use since the time of Shakespeare and the KJV and is currently accepted by the APA and the AP Stylebook. It's well-established English usage, even if not "standard". My general view is summed up by Sideswipe9th:
The least harmful and most consistent way I think is to use they/them pronouns while [Gooding] figures things out ... using a blanket she/her is probably the worst way to handle this, especially as [Gooding] has said I'm not "fine with being called a 'woman'". — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC) edited 05:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Using intentionally ambiguous pronouns ... can result in less clear prose– take it up with the APA, AP Stylebook, or any of the other well-regarded style guides listed at Singular they § Acceptability and prescriptive guidance. They/them is no more ambiguous here than any of the other WP articles where it is used (e.g.
Zoë Quinn).
non-binary or other trans identity, or any identity at all. Using they/them simply avoids the issue of binary gender entirely. Still, Gooding expressed their discomfort with the word "woman" in the context of a Twitter thread discussing their gender identity. It doesn't take a mind reader to apply some discretion in the use of gendered pronouns here.
The contemporary use as a means of avoiding gendered terms iro an individual is a very recent phenomenon.That depends on how you wish to define recent. The Chicago Manual of Style started recommending it thirty years ago in 1993. There are also examples of authors like Shakespeare (in Hamlet and A Comedy of Errors) using it to refer to an individual whose gender was known. But in any event, its use is now fully established and recommended by almost all major professional style guides as appropriate for use in gender-neutral language. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 00:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
means of avoiding gendered terms iro an individual, who does not wish to be 'gendered' is even more so. Singular 'they' is widely used and acceptable in the UK - where I come from- and has been in many situations for centuries. But not in this context, its use usually 'sticks out like a sore thumb' IMO. Neither Austen nor Shakespeare used 'they' as a device to avoid pronouns which the subject was uncomfortable with AFAIK. This modern use is becoming more common and consequently less 'sore-thumb'y, but it still has a long way to go IMO. Pincrete ( talk) 07:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
the increased use of singular they is not problematic for the majority of readers. We propose that in those few cases in which its use is considered surprising, the delays seen in comprehension are due not to the pronoun's ungrammaticality or to uncertainty over the intended referent, but to the suspicious opacity of using a nongendered pronoun for an antecedent whose gender is presumably known(emphasis added). A brief footnote is all that's needed to clear up any "suspicious opacity", which was surely more of a problem in 1997 than today, since they/them personal pronouns are more widely adopted now.Compared to the non-issue of reader confusion, avoiding even potential harm to a living subject is a real concern. To infer that Gooding is
fine with shebased on the tweet where Gooding says they sometimes refer to themselves as a Black woman because "that’s the easiest way to make it through conversation" is a real stretch IMO. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 14:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC) edited 04:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
They were born to actress, singer and dancer LaChanze, and Calvin Gooding, who died in the September 11th attacks. They have one sister, Zaya.? Barnards.tar.gz ( talk) 13:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
They and their sister, Zaya, were born to ...). That said ... I'm not sure that sentence is that ambiguous?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 15:00, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Gooding was raised in New York, New York. They were born to actress, singer and dancer LaChanze, and Calvin Gooding. Gooding's father died in the September 11th attacks. Gooding has one sister, Zaya.Sideswipe9th ( talk) 16:23, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Her mother is actress, singer and dancer LaChanze. She has one sister, Zaya.(It's unclear whether Gooding or LaChanze has a sister named Zaya.) The pronouns are not the problem here. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 04:33, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
they/she" on the Twitter bio, though "she" is put first in the tweet ("
I use both she and they pronouns"). I'm slightly inclined to think the order of the pronouns in the bio is more evidence than the order of the pronouns in this prose description, but, regardless, I don't think I'd interpret the more recent of the pair to be sufficiently indicative to change the status quo. In other words, if this article used "she" based on the tweet, and then the Twitter bio was changed to "they/she", I think I'd say we should keep "she" absent a stronger expression of preference. Here, the article uses "they" based on the Twitter bio, and I think that should remain absent a stronger expression of preference than that particular tweet. So, because of that, or—again—in the alternative, because I think the order of the pronoun expression in the bio is probably more indicative than this particular prose description, I'd say they/them. (Update: I now understand that the social media bios originally said "she/they", and that those bios were updated after the posts to say "they/she". As far as I'm concerned, this strengthens the rationale that the order of expression in the bio should probably outweigh the prose description.)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)) (I'm also not convinced by the arguments that "they" should be subordinated by default—that is, if a person indicates any acceptance of gendered pronouns, those pronouns should be used in lieu of "they". Frankly, I think that kind of rationale should be discussed in a proposed change to the guidelines, not an article talk page.)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 19:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
most peopledo. Instead we follow the example of reputable style guides. Since Gooding has publicly expressed discomfort with gendered terms like "woman", the logical choice is to use they to be
inclusive of all peopleand
avoid making assumptions about genderper APA Style, which endorses singular they in formal writing. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Off-topic discussion
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---|
|
The binary pronouns, while not ideal for every person, are still more “natural” to English speakers and should be preferred when there is no clear reason to avoid them.The status quo is NOT to use "they/them", it is to gendered pronouns EXCEPT when there is a clearly expressed wish to do otherwise from the individual. I cannot see any such expressed wish, nor other reason to avoid she/her, in fact an acceptance. If Gooding doesn't object, why should we. Why are we pigeon-holing Gooding? Pincrete ( talk) 07:57, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The status quo is NOT to use 'they/them'" – Check the status quo of this article; what does it use? – .Raven .talk 08:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
status quorefers to the last stable version of the individual article. It seems like you're suggesting what a standard practice is (although I'm not actually sure you're right about that).-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:28, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
@ HTGS:—HTGS, I'm pinging you since you started the RFC (and I generally think the people spearheading an RFC should have special say on these matters). The RFC has been quiet for 6 days, and relatively quiet since June started (two comments by the same user since then). In light of that relative quiet and the coming end of the RFC period, I think it's worth asking if we need an official close. From my perspective, things are relatively evenly split, and I suspect (though obviously, particularly as an involved editor, I can't guarantee) that the finding will be no consensus. What are your thoughts?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 21:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
The page makes it clear that Gooding identifies as asexual, I am not sure why she should not be included in the asexual people or asexual non binary people categories @ FlightTime Mek-laa-ni ( talk) 10:48, 27 June 2023 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Celia Rose Gooding article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Articles says that Gooding's preferred pronouns are "she" and "they." I am wondering how to know when to use one or the other. The article as currently written switches back and forth. Are there guidelines for this? Thanks! 74.74.162.131 ( talk) 01:55, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
her mother told them she...is just stupid, no matter how "woke" one is. – 2. O. Boxing 01:32, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
Gooding has recently made a Twitter thread regarding their gender identity. I wanted this information to be included, but I wasn’t sure whether it’s appropriate to include when the only reference is the thread. Gooding refers to themselves as “queer” both in terms of gender and sexuality. [1]
References
Redandsymmetry ( talk) 04:07, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Since she uses both she and they, the standard "she" should be used. This avoids unnecessary confusion -- FMSky ( talk) 00:10, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
The main argument in favor of she was:
The main contradiction in the discussion was thus whether binary pronouns should be preferred when available. Participants who thought so argued that singular they is "confusing" or "surprising", and she more "natural", with arguments largely based on intuition. Those who disagreed contradicted this argument; research was cited to show that singular they is not necessarily more confusing, to which there was no equivalently strong counterargument. I have discarded the argument that pronouns should be used according to "sex" given that it is in direct contradiction with MOS:GID. In summary, I can find no consensus that binary pronouns should be preferred over singular they. It is thus okay to use either they or she for a subject who accepts use of both they and she.
Though the above was the main subject of discussion in the RfC, it doesn't actually address the initial question: which pronouns should be used. Some participants argued that Gooding prefers they over she. Evidence provided for this includes a Twitter thread where they say that she is not fine with being called a woman. However, in that same thread they say: "I use both she and they pronouns." A valid counterargument, that was made in the discussion, is also that one can not want to be called a woman and still be okay with being called she. As such, I do not think this argument has support from this discussion.
It was also cited that Gooding lists they before she in Twitter and Instagram bios, which may be an indication of a preference. Gooding also changed the bios from "she/they" to "they/she" at some point, which was considered further evidence of a change in preference. One counterargument to this was that this kind of extrapolations is original research. It was rightly pointed out that that policy does not apply to talk pages, but it does highlight that order of pronouns when specified like this is a relatively ambiguous indicator without extra clarification, which Gooding has not made. Given this, I consider it to be plausible but not guaranteed that Gooding has a preference for they over she.
In conclusion, either she or they pronouns are acceptable in the article (binary ones should not be preferred). There is some support for preferring they over she for Gooding specifically. Given the complexities of this discussion, I will not give a simple result in bold, but there is no consensus to change to she; the article should continue using they until and unless new, compelling reasons come up. -- Maddy from Celeste ( WAVEDASH) 12:40, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
Celia Rose Gooding has expressed via Twitter (
[1]) and Instagram (
[2]) a preference for both she and they pronouns. Which pronouns should Wikipedia use when talking about Gooding? 22:19, 14 May 2023 (UTC)
Gooding attended the Hackley School in Tarrytown, New York, with their sister, and graduated with honors in performing arts. They occasionally took leaves of absence from high school to do readings for the musical Jagged Little Pill.)
Editors are expected to make a reasonable attempt at resolving their issues before starting an RfC. To my knowledge the nominator HTGS had not discussed this topic at all before starting this RfC, and the last active discussion on this talk page reached an apparent informal consensus to use they/them in October 2022. My and others' valuable time should not be wasted on frivolous RfCs when a more straightforward local discussion would more quickly resolve the issue.Failing that, they/them should be used per MOS:GENDERID since Gooding lists "they/she" in their Twitter bio and this series of tweets. Absent any third-party sources that discuss Gooding's preferred pronouns, Twitter is a valid source per WP:ABOUTSELF. Binary pronouns are not more inherently
accessiblesince singular they has been in use since the time of Shakespeare and the KJV and is currently accepted by the APA and the AP Stylebook. It's well-established English usage, even if not "standard". My general view is summed up by Sideswipe9th:
The least harmful and most consistent way I think is to use they/them pronouns while [Gooding] figures things out ... using a blanket she/her is probably the worst way to handle this, especially as [Gooding] has said I'm not "fine with being called a 'woman'". — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC) edited 05:48, 15 May 2023 (UTC)
Using intentionally ambiguous pronouns ... can result in less clear prose– take it up with the APA, AP Stylebook, or any of the other well-regarded style guides listed at Singular they § Acceptability and prescriptive guidance. They/them is no more ambiguous here than any of the other WP articles where it is used (e.g.
Zoë Quinn).
non-binary or other trans identity, or any identity at all. Using they/them simply avoids the issue of binary gender entirely. Still, Gooding expressed their discomfort with the word "woman" in the context of a Twitter thread discussing their gender identity. It doesn't take a mind reader to apply some discretion in the use of gendered pronouns here.
The contemporary use as a means of avoiding gendered terms iro an individual is a very recent phenomenon.That depends on how you wish to define recent. The Chicago Manual of Style started recommending it thirty years ago in 1993. There are also examples of authors like Shakespeare (in Hamlet and A Comedy of Errors) using it to refer to an individual whose gender was known. But in any event, its use is now fully established and recommended by almost all major professional style guides as appropriate for use in gender-neutral language. Sideswipe9th ( talk) 00:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
means of avoiding gendered terms iro an individual, who does not wish to be 'gendered' is even more so. Singular 'they' is widely used and acceptable in the UK - where I come from- and has been in many situations for centuries. But not in this context, its use usually 'sticks out like a sore thumb' IMO. Neither Austen nor Shakespeare used 'they' as a device to avoid pronouns which the subject was uncomfortable with AFAIK. This modern use is becoming more common and consequently less 'sore-thumb'y, but it still has a long way to go IMO. Pincrete ( talk) 07:43, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
the increased use of singular they is not problematic for the majority of readers. We propose that in those few cases in which its use is considered surprising, the delays seen in comprehension are due not to the pronoun's ungrammaticality or to uncertainty over the intended referent, but to the suspicious opacity of using a nongendered pronoun for an antecedent whose gender is presumably known(emphasis added). A brief footnote is all that's needed to clear up any "suspicious opacity", which was surely more of a problem in 1997 than today, since they/them personal pronouns are more widely adopted now.Compared to the non-issue of reader confusion, avoiding even potential harm to a living subject is a real concern. To infer that Gooding is
fine with shebased on the tweet where Gooding says they sometimes refer to themselves as a Black woman because "that’s the easiest way to make it through conversation" is a real stretch IMO. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 14:18, 20 May 2023 (UTC) edited 04:35, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
They were born to actress, singer and dancer LaChanze, and Calvin Gooding, who died in the September 11th attacks. They have one sister, Zaya.? Barnards.tar.gz ( talk) 13:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
They and their sister, Zaya, were born to ...). That said ... I'm not sure that sentence is that ambiguous?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 15:00, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Gooding was raised in New York, New York. They were born to actress, singer and dancer LaChanze, and Calvin Gooding. Gooding's father died in the September 11th attacks. Gooding has one sister, Zaya.Sideswipe9th ( talk) 16:23, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Her mother is actress, singer and dancer LaChanze. She has one sister, Zaya.(It's unclear whether Gooding or LaChanze has a sister named Zaya.) The pronouns are not the problem here. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 04:33, 22 May 2023 (UTC)
they/she" on the Twitter bio, though "she" is put first in the tweet ("
I use both she and they pronouns"). I'm slightly inclined to think the order of the pronouns in the bio is more evidence than the order of the pronouns in this prose description, but, regardless, I don't think I'd interpret the more recent of the pair to be sufficiently indicative to change the status quo. In other words, if this article used "she" based on the tweet, and then the Twitter bio was changed to "they/she", I think I'd say we should keep "she" absent a stronger expression of preference. Here, the article uses "they" based on the Twitter bio, and I think that should remain absent a stronger expression of preference than that particular tweet. So, because of that, or—again—in the alternative, because I think the order of the pronoun expression in the bio is probably more indicative than this particular prose description, I'd say they/them. (Update: I now understand that the social media bios originally said "she/they", and that those bios were updated after the posts to say "they/she". As far as I'm concerned, this strengthens the rationale that the order of expression in the bio should probably outweigh the prose description.)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 16:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)) (I'm also not convinced by the arguments that "they" should be subordinated by default—that is, if a person indicates any acceptance of gendered pronouns, those pronouns should be used in lieu of "they". Frankly, I think that kind of rationale should be discussed in a proposed change to the guidelines, not an article talk page.)-- Jerome Frank Disciple 19:33, 18 May 2023 (UTC)
most peopledo. Instead we follow the example of reputable style guides. Since Gooding has publicly expressed discomfort with gendered terms like "woman", the logical choice is to use they to be
inclusive of all peopleand
avoid making assumptions about genderper APA Style, which endorses singular they in formal writing. — Sangdeboeuf ( talk) 00:32, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Off-topic discussion
|
---|
|
The binary pronouns, while not ideal for every person, are still more “natural” to English speakers and should be preferred when there is no clear reason to avoid them.The status quo is NOT to use "they/them", it is to gendered pronouns EXCEPT when there is a clearly expressed wish to do otherwise from the individual. I cannot see any such expressed wish, nor other reason to avoid she/her, in fact an acceptance. If Gooding doesn't object, why should we. Why are we pigeon-holing Gooding? Pincrete ( talk) 07:57, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
The status quo is NOT to use 'they/them'" – Check the status quo of this article; what does it use? – .Raven .talk 08:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
status quorefers to the last stable version of the individual article. It seems like you're suggesting what a standard practice is (although I'm not actually sure you're right about that).-- Jerome Frank Disciple 12:28, 10 June 2023 (UTC)
@ HTGS:—HTGS, I'm pinging you since you started the RFC (and I generally think the people spearheading an RFC should have special say on these matters). The RFC has been quiet for 6 days, and relatively quiet since June started (two comments by the same user since then). In light of that relative quiet and the coming end of the RFC period, I think it's worth asking if we need an official close. From my perspective, things are relatively evenly split, and I suspect (though obviously, particularly as an involved editor, I can't guarantee) that the finding will be no consensus. What are your thoughts?-- Jerome Frank Disciple 21:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
The page makes it clear that Gooding identifies as asexual, I am not sure why she should not be included in the asexual people or asexual non binary people categories @ FlightTime Mek-laa-ni ( talk) 10:48, 27 June 2023 (UTC)