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The article says "a partially eaten ham sandwich was found by her bed". I doubt it. See http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/mamacass.htm
Her doctor speculated (he turned out to be wrong, according to the death certificate) that she choked on a sandwich. There was no mention of ham. See http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/Cass_Article_small.JPG and http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/DC.JPG, both linked from http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/cass_elliot.htm
If you can find a credible source from the time that says there was a sandwich (ham or otherwise) in the room, then cite it. munge
Also, what's with the picture of the 'acutal ham sandwich'. I'm sure that a half eaten ham sandwich from the 70s wouldn't look like a whole sandwich in a frypan. Is this a genuiene photo or not?-- 124.181.97.253 09:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
How are the creators of Snopes.com, who likely weren't even born at the time of Mama Cass' death, more credible than the physician who originally examined her? As stated above "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" is not the same thing as "heart attack" or "myocardial infarction". You should also add that to the article. As stated above "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" is an expected finding in someone of her size and appetites. It isn't necessarily a cause of death. That is like putting "nevus, left auricle" on the death certificate. Just because she had a mole on her left ear doesn't mean she died from it.
Furthermore, as stated above, there are problems with stating as fact that no food was found in her trachea. Once you move a body it is considered tainted evidence. The most credible exam is the original exam. We still don't know how the coroner determined that there was no food in the trachea. Unless she opened the trachea along its entire length or did a bronchoscopy down to the bifurcation, she can't state that there was no food in the trachea. Furthermore, even if she did perform those examinations, the only thing she could conclusively say is that "there is no food in the trachea at the time of the exam." That doesn't mean that it wasn't dislodged by moving the body. That is why the original examiner is the most trusted and valid.
I have also raised questions about her daughter's version of things and I think that she is anything but an ironclad credible source given her inconsistency in interviews and her obvious motives with regard to the issue.
I brought up Rosie as someone of similar size who is older and still alive. She almost certainly has "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" but she isn't dying from it. Rosie claimed to be 212 pounds on the View. There is no way that Mama Cass weighed anything close to 300 pounds. Artie Lange is someone who weighs exactly 300 pounds.
Artie Lange is not only physically larger than Mama Cass was, but he also is male and was a longshoreman. There is no way that Mama Cass had near the muscle mass that Artie Lange does.
The point of the weight discussion is that there are numerous 33 year old females walking around who weigh >600 pounds. 212, if that is a good approximation of what Mama Cass weighed, is positively petite. You can't say that she died because she was fat.
At the very best, you can say that her death due to a ham sandwich is disputed. You can't say that it was an urban legend that was debunked. The evidence simply isn't there. 74.138.203.179 ( talk) 13:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Can an editor more familiar with this topic review these edits. They were made by someone who made other edits that needed to be reverted. — siro χ o 00:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
FWIW the official site has an interview (Rolling Stone October 26, 1968, No. 20) in which the following exchange is given:-
"Is that a true story about a pipe falling on your head…
It’s true, I did get hit on the head by a pipe that fell down and my range was increased by three notes. They were tearing this club apart in the islands, revamping it, putting in a dance floor. Workmen dropped a thin metal plumbing pipe and it hit me on the head and knocked me to the ground. I had a concussion and went to the hospital. I had a bad headache for about two weeks and all of a sudden I was singing higher. It’s true. Honest to God.
Those into schadenfreude will enjoy the article from Esquire Magazine June, 1969 by William Kloman entitled SINK ALONG WITH MAMA CASS, found at the official Mama Cass website
Any pictures of call elliot? I am interested in what she looks (looked) like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TullFan2000 ( talk • contribs)
This might help: http://www.marinij.com/fairfax/ci_8540874 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gigi5154 ( talk • contribs) 02:17, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Her relationship with Peter Tork of The Monkees has been reported in many places. Was he the father of her child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.225.124.179 ( talk • contribs)
When I stumbled across this article, it claimed that Cass Elliott was Baroness von Wiedenmann by marriage to Baron von Wiedenman. I do not know Baron von Wiedenman, but I doubt he was noble.
Admittedly, if he were German, his wife would by law receive the surname "Baronin von Wiedemann", but that doesn't mean she is a Baroness, only her last name would reflect her gender, and in any case, it would be Baronin, not Baroness. That only leaves the possibility that Baron von Wiedenmann is a baron in the peeerage of Liechtenstein, an area over which I have no knowledge. That, however, I consider highly unlikely! And finally, all three times that the nobility of Cass Elliott was added, it was under an anonymous IP: [1], [2] [3] Blur4760 22:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
References
I am concerned that this article overall has too many unreferenced claims, and there is too much nasty trivia, disguised as "urban legends" and "references in the media". I also think that this article should focus more on Cass and cut down on the Mamas and the Papas section with a pointer to the main article (which could use some work too) - for example, why is the main picture one of the group? Let's try to find an acceptable one of Cass. She had a powerful solo career, and she was a formidable presence in the group, so there should be more to say about her than details about Michelle's love life. Just my opinion, of course. Tvoz 00:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The section "Urban legends" seems to have been vandalized: ...however the reason why no traces of ham sandwhich had been found may have been because Cass refused to give them up. Arriving on the scene Doctor Scummer Greenmould (a local GP) cited some items of ham in Cass's throat however when he tried to retrieve such items a battle ensued. After three hours of fighting the corpse, Greenmould gave up saying "Tell the fat cow she can keep it", to which the corpse of Cass replied "can you hand me the rest of the sandwhich?". Greenmould succumbed to his injuries three days later suffering from the loss of most his body organs to Cass who appeared to have eaten them. Thus it is impossible to tell what really happened that night however one of waiters at the hotel confirmed this story, Rennee Gough (now head waiter of the Abattoir Arms in Hull) sold his story to the Sun on the 1st January 2000 but sadly his computer was suffering from the Millenium bug and thus did not work. 84.216.58.196 18:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC) P-A Olsson, Sweden
Again, I'm finding all of this ham sandwich stuff offensive and demeaning to the article - the so-called "references in the media" section and the "urban legend" nonsense. Yes, I know that this is part of the story about her, so maybe one mention would be ok - at most that the mistaken report of her choking went on to fuel years of jokes - but it's starting to feel like a contest for who can find the most obnoxious and unimportant references to this woman's death. I haven't checked, but I'd bet that Abraham Lincoln doesn't include the joke that starts "But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...". Yeah, I know, not the same thing. Is this just me, or does anyone else find this somewhere between incredibly juvenile and very sick? And why is it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia??? Tvoz 02:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, now I see that User:Frecklefoot had agreed with my earlier point on this - I missed that somehow - so does anyone have a good reason not to remove all of this nonsense? If not, I am going to do it unless someone else beats me to it. Tvoz 02:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's offensive. It's been proven definitively that food did not play a role in Cass's death and the ham sandwich story is a cruel joke on a woman who made no bones about her weight problem. One thing i wonder, though: the article does not discuss drugs or alcohol, and I understand that Cass struggled with intermittent drinking and heroin use for much of the latter part of her life. Maccb ( talk) 00:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
What if John told her the reason she now was in the band was that she could sing so much better. “A whole three notes better”. And then she was like “must’ve been from that pipe hitting my head”... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.150.103 ( talk) 13:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Denny Doherty's claim about the name, "The Mamas and the Papas" implies that this was the first occasion (1965) that Cass called herself "mama" but that is contradicted by the illustration just above of the album cover of "The Big Three" which was apparently issued in 1963. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 ( talk • contribs)
How much did she weigh? The article makes no mention of this. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 ( talk) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"After the breakup of The Mamas & the Papas, Elliot went on to have a successful solo singing career. Her most successful recording during this period was 1968's Dream a Little Dream of Me from her solo album of the same name, released by Dunhill Records though it had originally been recorded for and released on the album The Papas & the Mamas Presented By The Mamas and the Papas earlier that year."
This isn't clear. Was the same recording issued on both albums or did she re-record it? BTLizard ( talk) 13:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
As far a pop culture she was also a "guest star" on a Scooby Doo Movie "Haunted Candy Factory" 1973. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.8.123 ( talk) 00:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree of course that it's interesting that Moon died in the same flat as Elliot, but since it happened 4 years after her death, I don't believe it belongs in her biography. This coincidence obviously had no impact on her life or death - there's a good chance that he was aware that she had died in that flat, and if reliable sources say so it may of interest to his biography. But I don't see its relevance to hers - having a source for a statement does not mean it must be included. We don't say in Linda McCartney's biography, for example, that her widower went on to marry a woman who, coincidentally, had the same name as their daughter Heather. Interesting coincidence, perhaps, but irrelevant to Linda's biography as it happened years after her death and had nothing to do with her. Similarly, the fact that Moon was also 32 when he died is completely irrelevant to anything - but I see that wasn't reinstated, so good. I'd like to hear what others think, but I would like to remove this irrelevant coincidence again as I have in the past. For some reason this article has long been plagued with edits that are not encyclopedic - I've tried, in the 3.5 years I've been editing this article, to keep it on track without rumors and speculation, as is appropriate for an encyclopedia and this mystical coincidence seems to me to be out of place. Tvoz/ talk 04:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that it part of the popular culture that surrounds her death. In the same way as the ham sandwich - people could reasonably come to this article in order to verify either of these two otherwise inconsequential points. The McCartney point is a straw-man. 122.149.18.160 ( talk) 22:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I also object to the inclusion of the purported death certificate or reference to "steatosis" - unless we have some 3rd party reporting about the discrepancy between what is claimed to be the death certificate and what was reported at the time, and unless some reliable source cites steatosis in connection with Elliot specifically, this is verging on original research and not allowable. The certificate can't be verified and we have not been given any source to support the supposition about cause of death. Tvoz/ talk 07:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
This is just an anecdote from memory and not really something for the encyclopedia article, but it may be of interest to Mama Cass fans: Michelle Philips mentioned in a radio interview a number of years ago that Cass had idolized Barbra Streisand, but would sometimes get a little depressed about not being able to hit some of the high notes that Streisand could easily manage. (Philips went on to observe that even if Cass didn't have Barbra's vocal range, Barbra couldn't do "warmth" like Cass could.) Anyway, the main point of Michelle Philips's anecdote was that even a singer who makes it look as effortless and easy as Cass Elliot did could still feel insecure about her vocal ability, so in my mind it does sort of tie in with the story that Cass's singing had somehow magically improved after she got hit on the head with a pipe. Throbert McGee ( talk) 01:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
To my knowledge, the lead vocal in Monday, Monday is Denny and not Cass - can anyone support me on this? Tjandspallan ( talk) 20:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
I remember Denny Doherty said in a TV interview that Cass was terribly lonely, and he mentioned that at a show a guy in the audience called out "Cass - we love you" and Doherty felt Cass almost shouted back "I'm in room ... at the Hilton" and would have thrown her room key to the guy. I think this is a more likely version of the story in the article about the room keys being thrown on stage - also: most people at a concert are in or close to their home towns and are not in hotels. - Marco Schuffelen— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcoSchuffelen ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
She is mentioned in Snuff Box. 86.16.194.235 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC).
As shown on the album cover, the group was The Big 3, not ..Three. As far as I know they always used the numeral in their name. 76.199.5.100 ( talk) 22:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure why but there's a lot of serif fonts on the page. Even the Edit tabs up the top 122.149.18.160 ( talk) 22:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
The album cover for The Big 3 must be a re-issue after the Mamas and the Papas (TMATP). It says "featuring Mama Cass Elliot", which she wasn't known as until after the formation of TMATP, which came after her association with The Big 3. Can anyone verify this? There isn't any info on the image page. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
In the section Death it is written: "She was treated at a hospital and released, then dismissed the incident in interviews, including one on the American television talk show The Mike Douglas Show, as nothing more than exhaustion." However, Cass clearly states: "I hadn't eaten anything all day and my blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." On the Johnny Carson show she relates: "I had a very bad headache. I hadn't been able to eat anything all day. Mu blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." Nothing about exhaustion at all. The article states nothing about Cass's diabetes (which Cass knew she was), and this was the cause of it ... not exhaustion. This should be changed to reflect the correct reason for her collapse. (This is not OR, there are online transcripts, medical reports and interviews to support the claim). Would anyone mind if I corrected this; with inline citations / reliable sources? Maineartists ( talk) 00:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Under the death section is the wording:
Reynolds added that some guests at the party used cocaine and other hard drugs on an upper floor, to which Reynolds made sure her children, ages 17 and 16, did not go.[26] Jagger told Reynolds about the situation upstairs, adding that if her children stayed on the ground floor, they would be safe.[26] Because neither Reynolds nor her children saw who partook of the drugs, Elliot's presence at the party may be inconsequential in understanding her death.
The article plainly documents,"pathologist Keith Simpson, who conducted her autopsy, her death was due to "heart failure due to fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity". A drug screen that was part of the forensic autopsy revealed there were no drugs in her system." The Reynolds speculation is simply non notable trivia.
Also the inclusion of, "despite the fact that Reynolds saw other partygoers, including her son Todd, become intimate with strangers and leave the building with each other.[26]" is also trivia that has nothing to do with Cass Elliot. Ward20 ( talk) 05:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
What does this have anything to do with Cass Elliot? Television: "A cover version of Make Your own Kind of Music has been recorded by Paloma Faith which is featured in the Skoda advert: Driven By Something Different (2018), for their Karoq model car. Paloma Faith's cover version was released as a single and reached #28 on the UK single chart in May 2018." Maineartists ( talk) 09:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
The caption on the photograph of the building where she died says she died on the "fourth floor" and "top left". Three different windows on two floors could match that description. It isn't clear because Americans, and much of the world count floors differently. Americans regard the floor literally at ground level as the "first floor." Most of the rest of the world calls that the "ground floor", and counts the floor above that (what Americans call the second floor) as the "first floor."
If the caption means fourth floor in British and international English, that could be Window A or Window B. (A is almost totally obscured by the angle). If it means fourth floor in American English, that would be Window C. The caption needs greater clarity on whether International English or American English floor counting is being used, and if the former, is it the window around the corner partly obscured by the trees, or the partially obscured window nearest to the photographer. FearÉIREANN\ (caint) 02:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Someone keeps moving the discussion of her use of heroin at her Las Vegas show to a section called "Drug Use."
Isolating her use of drugs at a time when everyone in her circle of musicians and singers seems ridiculous especially since drugs had no official role in her death
Though marijuana was illegal at the time it was ALSO culturally casual not just around the Laurel Canyon music crowd where she lived but with youth. It was not difficult to find or use, particularly since it could be easily grown. We don't need to be prudish about it.
Further, this belongs in the Las Vegas section where it originally appeared. Without it, that section reads like she was just sick and had tonsillitis. In fact she was strung out on heroin and couldn't perform. This explains why she and the show flopped after one day, how rumors of the heroin began to hurt her reputation and why she fell into a deep depression.
This should be a self-contained story. Stop separating it.
Redlemur ( talk) 18:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Now that Elliot's cause of death is accurate, I am wondering what is the point of keeping the myth of the ham sandwich. This urban legend seems to stem from fatphobia and does not necessarily have anything to do with Elliot, but more about the need to sensationalize and make jokes about her death. I compared this to Richard Gere and his wiki page. His page does not include the infamous rumor/urban legend of the gerbil because those on his talk page stated that this is a encyclopedia and not a gossip column. Should the same thing be said for Elliot? Orangesky6791 ( talk) 20:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think we can keep it out of the article, as distasteful as it is. And it's downright ugly in the "Death" section. But it's a pre-Internet meme that is very well established, and perhaps could be fit somehow in the popular culture reference section instead? Other than that, I agree with Maineartists completely. --jpgordon 𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 06:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
My take is that if something is prominently reported by reliable sources it's not our job as editors to hide it. The New York Times recently (May 9 2024) published a long piece about Cass Elliot that treats this myth. It's at [4].
An excerpt:
Claims that this is "not notable" seem to be overstated. Yes, this article should be respectful and factual. The fact is that lots of people believe this myth. A simple one sentence statement like "She did not die from choking on a sandwich, as a persistent popular myth claims." would be more than sufficient. Mr. Swordfish ( talk) 15:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
It’s not that she “reportedly hated the name” Mama. She said she hated it in the interview for which a reference is supplied. Nicmart ( talk) 05:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The article says born September 19, 1941 and died July 29, 1934 (age 31). Shouldn't that be age 32? Or maybe the dates are wrong? Ada42 ( talk) 02:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
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The article says "a partially eaten ham sandwich was found by her bed". I doubt it. See http://www.snopes.com/music/artists/mamacass.htm
Her doctor speculated (he turned out to be wrong, according to the death certificate) that she choked on a sandwich. There was no mention of ham. See http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/Cass_Article_small.JPG and http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/DC.JPG, both linked from http://www.findadeath.com/Deceased/e/Cass%20Elliot/cass_elliot.htm
If you can find a credible source from the time that says there was a sandwich (ham or otherwise) in the room, then cite it. munge
Also, what's with the picture of the 'acutal ham sandwich'. I'm sure that a half eaten ham sandwich from the 70s wouldn't look like a whole sandwich in a frypan. Is this a genuiene photo or not?-- 124.181.97.253 09:26, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
How are the creators of Snopes.com, who likely weren't even born at the time of Mama Cass' death, more credible than the physician who originally examined her? As stated above "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" is not the same thing as "heart attack" or "myocardial infarction". You should also add that to the article. As stated above "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" is an expected finding in someone of her size and appetites. It isn't necessarily a cause of death. That is like putting "nevus, left auricle" on the death certificate. Just because she had a mole on her left ear doesn't mean she died from it.
Furthermore, as stated above, there are problems with stating as fact that no food was found in her trachea. Once you move a body it is considered tainted evidence. The most credible exam is the original exam. We still don't know how the coroner determined that there was no food in the trachea. Unless she opened the trachea along its entire length or did a bronchoscopy down to the bifurcation, she can't state that there was no food in the trachea. Furthermore, even if she did perform those examinations, the only thing she could conclusively say is that "there is no food in the trachea at the time of the exam." That doesn't mean that it wasn't dislodged by moving the body. That is why the original examiner is the most trusted and valid.
I have also raised questions about her daughter's version of things and I think that she is anything but an ironclad credible source given her inconsistency in interviews and her obvious motives with regard to the issue.
I brought up Rosie as someone of similar size who is older and still alive. She almost certainly has "fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity" but she isn't dying from it. Rosie claimed to be 212 pounds on the View. There is no way that Mama Cass weighed anything close to 300 pounds. Artie Lange is someone who weighs exactly 300 pounds.
Artie Lange is not only physically larger than Mama Cass was, but he also is male and was a longshoreman. There is no way that Mama Cass had near the muscle mass that Artie Lange does.
The point of the weight discussion is that there are numerous 33 year old females walking around who weigh >600 pounds. 212, if that is a good approximation of what Mama Cass weighed, is positively petite. You can't say that she died because she was fat.
At the very best, you can say that her death due to a ham sandwich is disputed. You can't say that it was an urban legend that was debunked. The evidence simply isn't there. 74.138.203.179 ( talk) 13:09, 21 June 2008 (UTC)
Can an editor more familiar with this topic review these edits. They were made by someone who made other edits that needed to be reverted. — siro χ o 00:00, May 28, 2005 (UTC)
FWIW the official site has an interview (Rolling Stone October 26, 1968, No. 20) in which the following exchange is given:-
"Is that a true story about a pipe falling on your head…
It’s true, I did get hit on the head by a pipe that fell down and my range was increased by three notes. They were tearing this club apart in the islands, revamping it, putting in a dance floor. Workmen dropped a thin metal plumbing pipe and it hit me on the head and knocked me to the ground. I had a concussion and went to the hospital. I had a bad headache for about two weeks and all of a sudden I was singing higher. It’s true. Honest to God.
Those into schadenfreude will enjoy the article from Esquire Magazine June, 1969 by William Kloman entitled SINK ALONG WITH MAMA CASS, found at the official Mama Cass website
Any pictures of call elliot? I am interested in what she looks (looked) like. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TullFan2000 ( talk • contribs)
This might help: http://www.marinij.com/fairfax/ci_8540874 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gigi5154 ( talk • contribs) 02:17, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Her relationship with Peter Tork of The Monkees has been reported in many places. Was he the father of her child? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.225.124.179 ( talk • contribs)
When I stumbled across this article, it claimed that Cass Elliott was Baroness von Wiedenmann by marriage to Baron von Wiedenman. I do not know Baron von Wiedenman, but I doubt he was noble.
Admittedly, if he were German, his wife would by law receive the surname "Baronin von Wiedemann", but that doesn't mean she is a Baroness, only her last name would reflect her gender, and in any case, it would be Baronin, not Baroness. That only leaves the possibility that Baron von Wiedenmann is a baron in the peeerage of Liechtenstein, an area over which I have no knowledge. That, however, I consider highly unlikely! And finally, all three times that the nobility of Cass Elliott was added, it was under an anonymous IP: [1], [2] [3] Blur4760 22:12, 17 October 2006 (UTC)
References
I am concerned that this article overall has too many unreferenced claims, and there is too much nasty trivia, disguised as "urban legends" and "references in the media". I also think that this article should focus more on Cass and cut down on the Mamas and the Papas section with a pointer to the main article (which could use some work too) - for example, why is the main picture one of the group? Let's try to find an acceptable one of Cass. She had a powerful solo career, and she was a formidable presence in the group, so there should be more to say about her than details about Michelle's love life. Just my opinion, of course. Tvoz 00:45, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The section "Urban legends" seems to have been vandalized: ...however the reason why no traces of ham sandwhich had been found may have been because Cass refused to give them up. Arriving on the scene Doctor Scummer Greenmould (a local GP) cited some items of ham in Cass's throat however when he tried to retrieve such items a battle ensued. After three hours of fighting the corpse, Greenmould gave up saying "Tell the fat cow she can keep it", to which the corpse of Cass replied "can you hand me the rest of the sandwhich?". Greenmould succumbed to his injuries three days later suffering from the loss of most his body organs to Cass who appeared to have eaten them. Thus it is impossible to tell what really happened that night however one of waiters at the hotel confirmed this story, Rennee Gough (now head waiter of the Abattoir Arms in Hull) sold his story to the Sun on the 1st January 2000 but sadly his computer was suffering from the Millenium bug and thus did not work. 84.216.58.196 18:38, 27 May 2007 (UTC) P-A Olsson, Sweden
Again, I'm finding all of this ham sandwich stuff offensive and demeaning to the article - the so-called "references in the media" section and the "urban legend" nonsense. Yes, I know that this is part of the story about her, so maybe one mention would be ok - at most that the mistaken report of her choking went on to fuel years of jokes - but it's starting to feel like a contest for who can find the most obnoxious and unimportant references to this woman's death. I haven't checked, but I'd bet that Abraham Lincoln doesn't include the joke that starts "But other than that, Mrs. Lincoln...". Yeah, I know, not the same thing. Is this just me, or does anyone else find this somewhere between incredibly juvenile and very sick? And why is it worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia??? Tvoz 02:00, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Actually, now I see that User:Frecklefoot had agreed with my earlier point on this - I missed that somehow - so does anyone have a good reason not to remove all of this nonsense? If not, I am going to do it unless someone else beats me to it. Tvoz 02:02, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I agree that it's offensive. It's been proven definitively that food did not play a role in Cass's death and the ham sandwich story is a cruel joke on a woman who made no bones about her weight problem. One thing i wonder, though: the article does not discuss drugs or alcohol, and I understand that Cass struggled with intermittent drinking and heroin use for much of the latter part of her life. Maccb ( talk) 00:39, 5 August 2009 (UTC)
What if John told her the reason she now was in the band was that she could sing so much better. “A whole three notes better”. And then she was like “must’ve been from that pipe hitting my head”... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.48.150.103 ( talk) 13:10, 2 April 2019 (UTC)
Denny Doherty's claim about the name, "The Mamas and the Papas" implies that this was the first occasion (1965) that Cass called herself "mama" but that is contradicted by the illustration just above of the album cover of "The Big Three" which was apparently issued in 1963. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.12.252.11 ( talk • contribs)
How much did she weigh? The article makes no mention of this. Thanks in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.159.186 ( talk) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
"After the breakup of The Mamas & the Papas, Elliot went on to have a successful solo singing career. Her most successful recording during this period was 1968's Dream a Little Dream of Me from her solo album of the same name, released by Dunhill Records though it had originally been recorded for and released on the album The Papas & the Mamas Presented By The Mamas and the Papas earlier that year."
This isn't clear. Was the same recording issued on both albums or did she re-record it? BTLizard ( talk) 13:00, 27 September 2008 (UTC)
As far a pop culture she was also a "guest star" on a Scooby Doo Movie "Haunted Candy Factory" 1973. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.112.8.123 ( talk) 00:20, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I agree of course that it's interesting that Moon died in the same flat as Elliot, but since it happened 4 years after her death, I don't believe it belongs in her biography. This coincidence obviously had no impact on her life or death - there's a good chance that he was aware that she had died in that flat, and if reliable sources say so it may of interest to his biography. But I don't see its relevance to hers - having a source for a statement does not mean it must be included. We don't say in Linda McCartney's biography, for example, that her widower went on to marry a woman who, coincidentally, had the same name as their daughter Heather. Interesting coincidence, perhaps, but irrelevant to Linda's biography as it happened years after her death and had nothing to do with her. Similarly, the fact that Moon was also 32 when he died is completely irrelevant to anything - but I see that wasn't reinstated, so good. I'd like to hear what others think, but I would like to remove this irrelevant coincidence again as I have in the past. For some reason this article has long been plagued with edits that are not encyclopedic - I've tried, in the 3.5 years I've been editing this article, to keep it on track without rumors and speculation, as is appropriate for an encyclopedia and this mystical coincidence seems to me to be out of place. Tvoz/ talk 04:11, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
I think that it part of the popular culture that surrounds her death. In the same way as the ham sandwich - people could reasonably come to this article in order to verify either of these two otherwise inconsequential points. The McCartney point is a straw-man. 122.149.18.160 ( talk) 22:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
I also object to the inclusion of the purported death certificate or reference to "steatosis" - unless we have some 3rd party reporting about the discrepancy between what is claimed to be the death certificate and what was reported at the time, and unless some reliable source cites steatosis in connection with Elliot specifically, this is verging on original research and not allowable. The certificate can't be verified and we have not been given any source to support the supposition about cause of death. Tvoz/ talk 07:21, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
This is just an anecdote from memory and not really something for the encyclopedia article, but it may be of interest to Mama Cass fans: Michelle Philips mentioned in a radio interview a number of years ago that Cass had idolized Barbra Streisand, but would sometimes get a little depressed about not being able to hit some of the high notes that Streisand could easily manage. (Philips went on to observe that even if Cass didn't have Barbra's vocal range, Barbra couldn't do "warmth" like Cass could.) Anyway, the main point of Michelle Philips's anecdote was that even a singer who makes it look as effortless and easy as Cass Elliot did could still feel insecure about her vocal ability, so in my mind it does sort of tie in with the story that Cass's singing had somehow magically improved after she got hit on the head with a pipe. Throbert McGee ( talk) 01:09, 19 February 2011 (UTC)
To my knowledge, the lead vocal in Monday, Monday is Denny and not Cass - can anyone support me on this? Tjandspallan ( talk) 20:49, 18 May 2011 (UTC)
I remember Denny Doherty said in a TV interview that Cass was terribly lonely, and he mentioned that at a show a guy in the audience called out "Cass - we love you" and Doherty felt Cass almost shouted back "I'm in room ... at the Hilton" and would have thrown her room key to the guy. I think this is a more likely version of the story in the article about the room keys being thrown on stage - also: most people at a concert are in or close to their home towns and are not in hotels. - Marco Schuffelen— Preceding unsigned comment added by MarcoSchuffelen ( talk • contribs) 19:26, 31 May 2011 (UTC)
She is mentioned in Snuff Box. 86.16.194.235 ( talk) —Preceding undated comment added 21:15, 1 April 2012 (UTC).
As shown on the album cover, the group was The Big 3, not ..Three. As far as I know they always used the numeral in their name. 76.199.5.100 ( talk) 22:26, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure why but there's a lot of serif fonts on the page. Even the Edit tabs up the top 122.149.18.160 ( talk) 22:48, 16 December 2013 (UTC)
The album cover for The Big 3 must be a re-issue after the Mamas and the Papas (TMATP). It says "featuring Mama Cass Elliot", which she wasn't known as until after the formation of TMATP, which came after her association with The Big 3. Can anyone verify this? There isn't any info on the image page. — Frεcklεfσσt | Talk 14:32, 7 March 2014 (UTC)
In the section Death it is written: "She was treated at a hospital and released, then dismissed the incident in interviews, including one on the American television talk show The Mike Douglas Show, as nothing more than exhaustion." However, Cass clearly states: "I hadn't eaten anything all day and my blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." On the Johnny Carson show she relates: "I had a very bad headache. I hadn't been able to eat anything all day. Mu blood sugar level dropped and I sorta tipped over." Nothing about exhaustion at all. The article states nothing about Cass's diabetes (which Cass knew she was), and this was the cause of it ... not exhaustion. This should be changed to reflect the correct reason for her collapse. (This is not OR, there are online transcripts, medical reports and interviews to support the claim). Would anyone mind if I corrected this; with inline citations / reliable sources? Maineartists ( talk) 00:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
Under the death section is the wording:
Reynolds added that some guests at the party used cocaine and other hard drugs on an upper floor, to which Reynolds made sure her children, ages 17 and 16, did not go.[26] Jagger told Reynolds about the situation upstairs, adding that if her children stayed on the ground floor, they would be safe.[26] Because neither Reynolds nor her children saw who partook of the drugs, Elliot's presence at the party may be inconsequential in understanding her death.
The article plainly documents,"pathologist Keith Simpson, who conducted her autopsy, her death was due to "heart failure due to fatty myocardial degeneration due to obesity". A drug screen that was part of the forensic autopsy revealed there were no drugs in her system." The Reynolds speculation is simply non notable trivia.
Also the inclusion of, "despite the fact that Reynolds saw other partygoers, including her son Todd, become intimate with strangers and leave the building with each other.[26]" is also trivia that has nothing to do with Cass Elliot. Ward20 ( talk) 05:33, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
What does this have anything to do with Cass Elliot? Television: "A cover version of Make Your own Kind of Music has been recorded by Paloma Faith which is featured in the Skoda advert: Driven By Something Different (2018), for their Karoq model car. Paloma Faith's cover version was released as a single and reached #28 on the UK single chart in May 2018." Maineartists ( talk) 09:56, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
The caption on the photograph of the building where she died says she died on the "fourth floor" and "top left". Three different windows on two floors could match that description. It isn't clear because Americans, and much of the world count floors differently. Americans regard the floor literally at ground level as the "first floor." Most of the rest of the world calls that the "ground floor", and counts the floor above that (what Americans call the second floor) as the "first floor."
If the caption means fourth floor in British and international English, that could be Window A or Window B. (A is almost totally obscured by the angle). If it means fourth floor in American English, that would be Window C. The caption needs greater clarity on whether International English or American English floor counting is being used, and if the former, is it the window around the corner partly obscured by the trees, or the partially obscured window nearest to the photographer. FearÉIREANN\ (caint) 02:51, 12 March 2020 (UTC)
Someone keeps moving the discussion of her use of heroin at her Las Vegas show to a section called "Drug Use."
Isolating her use of drugs at a time when everyone in her circle of musicians and singers seems ridiculous especially since drugs had no official role in her death
Though marijuana was illegal at the time it was ALSO culturally casual not just around the Laurel Canyon music crowd where she lived but with youth. It was not difficult to find or use, particularly since it could be easily grown. We don't need to be prudish about it.
Further, this belongs in the Las Vegas section where it originally appeared. Without it, that section reads like she was just sick and had tonsillitis. In fact she was strung out on heroin and couldn't perform. This explains why she and the show flopped after one day, how rumors of the heroin began to hurt her reputation and why she fell into a deep depression.
This should be a self-contained story. Stop separating it.
Redlemur ( talk) 18:32, 11 April 2023 (UTC)
Now that Elliot's cause of death is accurate, I am wondering what is the point of keeping the myth of the ham sandwich. This urban legend seems to stem from fatphobia and does not necessarily have anything to do with Elliot, but more about the need to sensationalize and make jokes about her death. I compared this to Richard Gere and his wiki page. His page does not include the infamous rumor/urban legend of the gerbil because those on his talk page stated that this is a encyclopedia and not a gossip column. Should the same thing be said for Elliot? Orangesky6791 ( talk) 20:09, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
I don't think we can keep it out of the article, as distasteful as it is. And it's downright ugly in the "Death" section. But it's a pre-Internet meme that is very well established, and perhaps could be fit somehow in the popular culture reference section instead? Other than that, I agree with Maineartists completely. --jpgordon 𝄢𝄆𝄐𝄇 06:52, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
My take is that if something is prominently reported by reliable sources it's not our job as editors to hide it. The New York Times recently (May 9 2024) published a long piece about Cass Elliot that treats this myth. It's at [4].
An excerpt:
Claims that this is "not notable" seem to be overstated. Yes, this article should be respectful and factual. The fact is that lots of people believe this myth. A simple one sentence statement like "She did not die from choking on a sandwich, as a persistent popular myth claims." would be more than sufficient. Mr. Swordfish ( talk) 15:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)
It’s not that she “reportedly hated the name” Mama. She said she hated it in the interview for which a reference is supplied. Nicmart ( talk) 05:59, 5 January 2024 (UTC)
The article says born September 19, 1941 and died July 29, 1934 (age 31). Shouldn't that be age 32? Or maybe the dates are wrong? Ada42 ( talk) 02:31, 7 June 2024 (UTC)