This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Just curious, according to what criteria do some camps merit the distinction of being called "concentration camps"? Was this the official Polish terminology at the time? If not, it would be good to see some justification for the use of such a loaded term. Balcer 07:23, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some Western Ukrainian nationalist POWs were kept in the same camps and sometimes branded as "Bolsheviks". Xx236 14:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.msz.gov.pl/files/file_library/39/001030_1965.doc http://www.pwin.c-net.pl/biuletyn6.html http://www.obliczahistorii.pl/prasa.php?Wypisz=51 Xx236 12:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe: Zapomniana wojna Walki o Lwów i Galicję Wschodnią 1918 - 1919 Kozłowski Maciej Xx236 12:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/C/R/Cracow.htm 300 POWs died in Cracow-Dąbie camp.
This 1998 article in Nezavisimaya Gazeta (in Russian) cites that according to Polish documents 22,000 prisoners died in only in Tuchola alone:
It goes further claiming that mass executions of the Soviets were personally ordered by Sikorski, again according to Polish sources:
The author estimates the total Soviet deaths at 50-60,000 as follows:
It has more quotes based on the 1923 report of the Ukrainian-Russian investigative comission as well as the official note of the 1922 Russian representative in Poland but these above are based on Polish own documents.
There is also a link to a response published in the same paper written by a Polish scholar cited as "Збигнев Карпус - доктор исторических наук, профессор Университета имени Коперника в Торуни (Польша)." His estimation is much less but still 16-18,000 as follows:
While the Russian author cites specific documents, the Polish one just says: "материалы существуют - хотя и в рассеянном виде, но зато в большом количестве "
Sorry for Russian quotes, I can translate them if necessary. I would like to see in advance if someone is going to challenge the source or the number it gives (Russian Nezavisimaya Gazeta is certainly not a tabloid to print outright nonsense) before I will incorporate this information to Wikipedia. -- Irpen 04:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know from what original name Збигнев Карпус is transliterated. Probably there are not too many variants to check, especially within the list of professor of Nikolaus Copernicus University. The first article is written by "Юрий Иванов". It is such a common name that you can't make any sense out of google search. However, he sites specific Polish documents. The 22,000 in Tuchola is referenced to "начальник 2-го отдела Генштаба польской армии полковник И.Матушевский" (a Polish colonel, some servise post in General Headquarters) I have no idea hot to transliterate this back, but again there should not be too many variants).
300 prisoners machine-gunned by the personal order of Sikorski is referenced to an article by a Polish author "А. Велевейский" in 23 Feb, '94 Gazeta Wyborcza as well as the order of General "Пясецкий" to not take Russian prisoners alive. He claims that the name death camp was coined for Tuchola in White Russian press in Poland, not the Red propaganda.
Speaking of Red, the info of the murder of the Red Cross mission is also ommitted. If anyone can confirm the names of the Polish people and add what we know about them, it would be helpful. -- Irpen 05:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Irpen doesn't read his newspaper. The quoted article was answered in 2000 and a Russian book printed
http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501.
Xx236 12:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
"During a war between two countries experiencing great socioeconomic difficulties, and often unable to provide adquately for their own populations, the treatment of prisoners of war was far from adequate." It's amazing how some historical facts get a mutch softer treatment than others. If this article was about Polish POWs is Russia it would probably go "The Soviet authorities deliberatelly exterminated Polish POWs by deniyng them some of the most basic living conditions". To consider that Poland at that time was a democracy which had a free press is pure fiction, it is absolutelly laughable. Several sources point out that the death of so many Russian and Soviet POWs was not just a "sad accident", yet in this article they are just censored. I guess that their deaths don't count ..... User:HelderM 13:50, 21 April 2006
It should be mentioned in the article, that no Soviet historian cared about Soviet POWs in Poland till Gorbachev ordered to find something against Poland, when even Polish Communists demanded to publish Katyn massacre details. The Soviets were able to study any piece of paper in Poland 1944-1989 (and many of them 1939-1941) but no Pole responsible for the alleged crimes was identified, tortured and executed. Xx236 11:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The article is about Bolshevik POWs, kept together with Western Ukrainian ones. It doesn't mention explicitly the fate of the Russian prisoners of WWI. Xx236 08:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
All I knew I quoted above, under Western Ukrainians. Strange that no Ukrainian is interested in the subject. I read an article in Ukrainian about 20 years ago. West Ukrainian National Republic doesn't mention the POWs. Xx236 15:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It was "Дзвін", under Gorbatshev. I'm sorry, I don't know anything more. Xx236 06:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe someone living in Cracow can find some data about Dąbie camp, later ZOMO barracs. I mean people taken during the war against Western Ukraine, before 1920. Xx236 14:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Xx236 14:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Recentely the myths about this camps have been solved by joint Russian-Polish state comission: http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501 It would be good to translate summary of their findings into English. -- Molobo 18:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
That fragment (originally added by Irpen to the main PSW article) spiked my interest. Does it mean that Russian emigrees in Poland had their own newspaper? If so, the fact that it could publish such critiques of Polish government goes long way to show one of the differences beteen contemporary Poland and Soviet Union (free press).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
See the ref I quote at Talk:Katyn_massacre#Russian_attitudes_towards_Katyn. It has some useful numbers and such.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a simmetric article? Xx236 08:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Why 1924? Weren't all prisoners released after the Treaty of Riga? At the very least, we need a ref that some remained in custody until that date.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 06:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What about droping 'camps for...' from the title? The shorter title will be as meaningful and that article (and its companions) are really about prisoners first, camps second. PS. Same goes for 'internees' - were there any Soviet internees in Poland?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 06:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
"Concentration camp and centre locations"
"Concentration camps" is a too big word for the camps around the country after the war. The Russians soldiers in camps were give food and medical support as much as situation could allowed to do this. No one exterminated Russian nation in these camps because of political, religious or nationality views. Quit using propaganda terms. Polish "concentration camps" comparing to these made by Germans are a joke, no one torturred Russian POW's, no one made them die from hunger, no one made them die from non medical treatmend etc. Comparing Polish "concentration camps" for Russian POWs they were heaven to these what Russians had for Polish POW's and historic documents are for this.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 02:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
As I was asked on my talk page, I didn't think there was enough in the background and camp sections to meet a B. Another paragraph or two in which of decent size should do it, however, if properly sourced.-- Bedford Pray 18:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't settled, the Russian co-author continues his line. Xx236 ( talk) 08:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:02, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:58, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 22:21, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
This last part titled "Poland's losses" is nothing but an apologetic sentiment from the Poles for the atrocities they've inflicted on the Soviet prisoners of war. It's really disgusting that this kind of information is allowed on this Wiki page. This is really like posting a section of the "Jewish crimes" on the page about Holocaust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:A45F:F017:2077:B840:AFB5:3764 ( talk) 02:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Just curious, according to what criteria do some camps merit the distinction of being called "concentration camps"? Was this the official Polish terminology at the time? If not, it would be good to see some justification for the use of such a loaded term. Balcer 07:23, 27 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Some Western Ukrainian nationalist POWs were kept in the same camps and sometimes branded as "Bolsheviks". Xx236 14:09, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
http://www.msz.gov.pl/files/file_library/39/001030_1965.doc http://www.pwin.c-net.pl/biuletyn6.html http://www.obliczahistorii.pl/prasa.php?Wypisz=51 Xx236 12:36, 2 January 2006 (UTC)
Maybe: Zapomniana wojna Walki o Lwów i Galicję Wschodnią 1918 - 1919 Kozłowski Maciej Xx236 12:04, 3 January 2006 (UTC)
http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pages/C/R/Cracow.htm 300 POWs died in Cracow-Dąbie camp.
This 1998 article in Nezavisimaya Gazeta (in Russian) cites that according to Polish documents 22,000 prisoners died in only in Tuchola alone:
It goes further claiming that mass executions of the Soviets were personally ordered by Sikorski, again according to Polish sources:
The author estimates the total Soviet deaths at 50-60,000 as follows:
It has more quotes based on the 1923 report of the Ukrainian-Russian investigative comission as well as the official note of the 1922 Russian representative in Poland but these above are based on Polish own documents.
There is also a link to a response published in the same paper written by a Polish scholar cited as "Збигнев Карпус - доктор исторических наук, профессор Университета имени Коперника в Торуни (Польша)." His estimation is much less but still 16-18,000 as follows:
While the Russian author cites specific documents, the Polish one just says: "материалы существуют - хотя и в рассеянном виде, но зато в большом количестве "
Sorry for Russian quotes, I can translate them if necessary. I would like to see in advance if someone is going to challenge the source or the number it gives (Russian Nezavisimaya Gazeta is certainly not a tabloid to print outright nonsense) before I will incorporate this information to Wikipedia. -- Irpen 04:56, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
I don't know from what original name Збигнев Карпус is transliterated. Probably there are not too many variants to check, especially within the list of professor of Nikolaus Copernicus University. The first article is written by "Юрий Иванов". It is such a common name that you can't make any sense out of google search. However, he sites specific Polish documents. The 22,000 in Tuchola is referenced to "начальник 2-го отдела Генштаба польской армии полковник И.Матушевский" (a Polish colonel, some servise post in General Headquarters) I have no idea hot to transliterate this back, but again there should not be too many variants).
300 prisoners machine-gunned by the personal order of Sikorski is referenced to an article by a Polish author "А. Велевейский" in 23 Feb, '94 Gazeta Wyborcza as well as the order of General "Пясецкий" to not take Russian prisoners alive. He claims that the name death camp was coined for Tuchola in White Russian press in Poland, not the Red propaganda.
Speaking of Red, the info of the murder of the Red Cross mission is also ommitted. If anyone can confirm the names of the Polish people and add what we know about them, it would be helpful. -- Irpen 05:40, 18 March 2006 (UTC)
Irpen doesn't read his newspaper. The quoted article was answered in 2000 and a Russian book printed
http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501.
Xx236 12:15, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
"During a war between two countries experiencing great socioeconomic difficulties, and often unable to provide adquately for their own populations, the treatment of prisoners of war was far from adequate." It's amazing how some historical facts get a mutch softer treatment than others. If this article was about Polish POWs is Russia it would probably go "The Soviet authorities deliberatelly exterminated Polish POWs by deniyng them some of the most basic living conditions". To consider that Poland at that time was a democracy which had a free press is pure fiction, it is absolutelly laughable. Several sources point out that the death of so many Russian and Soviet POWs was not just a "sad accident", yet in this article they are just censored. I guess that their deaths don't count ..... User:HelderM 13:50, 21 April 2006
It should be mentioned in the article, that no Soviet historian cared about Soviet POWs in Poland till Gorbachev ordered to find something against Poland, when even Polish Communists demanded to publish Katyn massacre details. The Soviets were able to study any piece of paper in Poland 1944-1989 (and many of them 1939-1941) but no Pole responsible for the alleged crimes was identified, tortured and executed. Xx236 11:43, 8 May 2006 (UTC)
The article is about Bolshevik POWs, kept together with Western Ukrainian ones. It doesn't mention explicitly the fate of the Russian prisoners of WWI. Xx236 08:57, 25 May 2006 (UTC)
All I knew I quoted above, under Western Ukrainians. Strange that no Ukrainian is interested in the subject. I read an article in Ukrainian about 20 years ago. West Ukrainian National Republic doesn't mention the POWs. Xx236 15:12, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
It was "Дзвін", under Gorbatshev. I'm sorry, I don't know anything more. Xx236 06:32, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Maybe someone living in Cracow can find some data about Dąbie camp, later ZOMO barracs. I mean people taken during the war against Western Ukraine, before 1920. Xx236 14:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC) Xx236 14:17, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Recentely the myths about this camps have been solved by joint Russian-Polish state comission: http://www.archiwa.gov.pl/?CIDA=501 It would be good to translate summary of their findings into English. -- Molobo 18:03, 26 May 2006 (UTC)
That fragment (originally added by Irpen to the main PSW article) spiked my interest. Does it mean that Russian emigrees in Poland had their own newspaper? If so, the fact that it could publish such critiques of Polish government goes long way to show one of the differences beteen contemporary Poland and Soviet Union (free press).-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 14:57, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
See the ref I quote at Talk:Katyn_massacre#Russian_attitudes_towards_Katyn. It has some useful numbers and such.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 20:26, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
Is there a simmetric article? Xx236 08:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Why 1924? Weren't all prisoners released after the Treaty of Riga? At the very least, we need a ref that some remained in custody until that date.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 06:45, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
What about droping 'camps for...' from the title? The shorter title will be as meaningful and that article (and its companions) are really about prisoners first, camps second. PS. Same goes for 'internees' - were there any Soviet internees in Poland?-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk 06:43, 6 April 2007 (UTC)
"Concentration camp and centre locations"
"Concentration camps" is a too big word for the camps around the country after the war. The Russians soldiers in camps were give food and medical support as much as situation could allowed to do this. No one exterminated Russian nation in these camps because of political, religious or nationality views. Quit using propaganda terms. Polish "concentration camps" comparing to these made by Germans are a joke, no one torturred Russian POW's, no one made them die from hunger, no one made them die from non medical treatmend etc. Comparing Polish "concentration camps" for Russian POWs they were heaven to these what Russians had for Polish POW's and historic documents are for this.
-- Krzyzowiec ( talk) 02:47, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
As I was asked on my talk page, I didn't think there was enough in the background and camp sections to meet a B. Another paragraph or two in which of decent size should do it, however, if properly sourced.-- Bedford Pray 18:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
It wasn't settled, the Russian co-author continues his line. Xx236 ( talk) 08:27, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified 2 external links on Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 22:02, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 12:45, 10 September 2017 (UTC)
Hello fellow Wikipedians,
I have just modified one external link on Camps for Russian prisoners and internees in Poland (1919–24). Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:
When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.
This message was posted before February 2018.
After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than
regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors
have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the
RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{
source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 10:58, 31 December 2017 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 22:21, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
This last part titled "Poland's losses" is nothing but an apologetic sentiment from the Poles for the atrocities they've inflicted on the Soviet prisoners of war. It's really disgusting that this kind of information is allowed on this Wiki page. This is really like posting a section of the "Jewish crimes" on the page about Holocaust. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2607:FEA8:A45F:F017:2077:B840:AFB5:3764 ( talk) 02:13, 12 November 2019 (UTC)