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Complicated discussion here: [1] Modernist ( talk) 16:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Please enter Ori Redler in Facebook. The first line declares: On Facebook there are may anti-Israeli/Anti-Jewish groups, etc. Follow the links if they are still there right now. I am going to proceed to look again at the internet and bring here the List of "bad jews" monitored by some people from the University of Jerusalem, denouncing Ettinger, Ofir and others. I hope all the links are still there. This is very serious. Back in few minuets. Artethical ( talk) 15:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that this is clear by now that Ettinger was "lynched" in purpose. I suggest that we proceed to correct the damage. You can look at Google Books, and also you can Google her to find what I have found about this coordinated "witch-hunting". I am sorry that I do not want enter this. You are invited to verify. Since her references are correct and corresponding to Wikipedia rules and criteria, I suggest that we respect the rules and criteria, and simply return in good faith, respect and dignity, and undo the unjustified deletions. I will do the best that I can in this direction. Artethical ( talk) 16:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I want to assume good respect and am simply stating that you are perhaps differently informed. No offense. Freud and Lacan is one level, the others are another level in which Ettinger fits. It looks that you have taken the initiative to remove her from many different pages, I am still trying to assume good faith. You know by now what was going on, we seem to have different conclusions. Artethical ( talk) 17:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I have left you a message on your page too. I am sorry if I have upset you, I see that you have done your best and in a good way. We simply don't agree on this, but I sincerely want to remain polite and to contribute to general knowledge. I am very dedicated to the subject. But - no bad feelings. We are informed on the field in a different way. The future will tell. Best, Artethical ( talk) 21:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone re-write the theory section such that it makes sense to someone coming to it fresh - at present it is full of undefined non-standard terminology and concepts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.208.190 ( talk) 17:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
not sure what the exact wiki policy on this is, but the whole article scream off brachia l. ettinger writing this article herself. The indepthdness of the ideas and unnecessary description seem odd, and almost promotional. The writing is downright rude in it's inaccessibility and language use, I propose a simplification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.93.40.178 ( talk) 14:00, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I know that it's "feminist film theory" and all, but Wikipedia seems to be using all the weird invented words that nobody but Ettinger has used ("matrixial", "metramorphosis", "m/Other", "com-passion" etc.): this might fly in some journals, but unless an actual meaning can be pinned down, it shouldn't fly on Wikipedia. 86.160.127.102 ( talk) 19:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
[moved from my talk page 22:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)]
Dear BhNY International and prominent are standard in wikipedia for artists of this huge international status. This artist has studios in few different countries all over the world and participating in the most important international exhibitions. The number of books dedicated by art historians pf the first order is without precedence. Man artist of this status are considered inrernational and prominent. Man philosopher of this standard and status are considered ageless and international. I am asking you please do not delete and replace again without discussion first. We might need more discussants. Artethical ( talk) 12:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I added a "peacock" tag which unfortunately was removed. Much of this article reads like an art gallery bio. It isn't at all encyclopedic. Here are some examples of the problems-
etc. Bhny ( talk) 22:22, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand why there is an exhaustive list of group and solo shows (obviously taken from a gallery handout). Groups shows by their nature are not usually notable for an artist. If any of these solo shows are notable then we should explain why. Artists have shows, unless it is notable there's no point in listing them. Jackson_Pollock, Picasso, Georgia O'Keeffe don't have a listing of shows. Important shows are just mentioned in prose. Bhny ( talk) 13:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Look, I understand that critical theorists (especially francophone critical theorists) feel the need to write in a jargon comprehensible to only themselves and a select few initiates, but does Wikipedia have to employ the same jargon in writing about them? Ettinger may not be concerned about being understood by the general public, but Wikipedia should be. As things currently stand—and as they have stood for years, as this talk page makes evident—large sections of this article are virtually incomprehensible. The "psychoanalysis" section is composed largely of weird neologisms that Ettinger herself made up and that she seems to be the only one who uses. A brief selection of the best nonsense jargon in the article:
woman(girl)-to-woman(mother); differentiating-in-jointness by borderlinking; the archaic the m/Other (Autremere); the 'matrixial gaze' and the process of 'co-poiesis'; feel-knowing; the phantasmatic and traumatic real of the pregnant becoming-mother, are trans-inscribed; etc...
Now, again, if Ettinger wants to use this kind of jargon in psychoanalytic theory (and I can't imagine how this would be conveyed in a therapeutic context), that's her business. But Wikipedia is no place for this kind of nonsense language. I would like to propose, as has been suggested on here many times over the years, either a translation of Ettinger's theory into a comprehensible language devoid of one person's idioglossia, or the significant pruning of the theory section of the article, which I can't imagine conveys any real information to more than a handful of people. Tigercompanion25 ( talk) 19:34, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I have done a copy edit to the end of the “Psychoanalyst” section. I would delete half of that section simply because it discusses her work, and is not biographical. I would also delete the “Psychoanalytic Theory” section, as well as the “Fascience Forum for Ettinger Studies" for the same reason. I would also delete all but the most recent three or four publications, exhibitions, conversations etc…
I had tagged numerous sentences that needed citations intending to go back and check further for citations. In the meantime, someone removed them all and replaced them with an overarching Citations tag. Given the lack of credible material on Ettinger, I don’t think I’ll spend the time on this.
Here
http://baadgallery.org/wp-content/uploads/CV_Bracha-Ettinger.pdf I have found a pdf that might possibly be a reference for her art/writing etc… except that, given the overwhelming detail, it was likely written by the subject herself.
I also found another pdf, again by the subject , which I can’t now locate, that provided very detailed autobiographical detail.
I'm assuming that the "Copy Edit" can't be dedeemed complete until all the deletions are done, and I assume that can't happen until a consensus (among whom?) is reached on this. So i leave it in its present state.
Twofingered Typist (
talk)
20:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
I can try to to reverse the order of those sections to begin with. Doraannao ( talk) 05:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
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Just look at it... Jesus. Equinox ◑ 14:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Complicated discussion here: [1] Modernist ( talk) 16:42, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
Please enter Ori Redler in Facebook. The first line declares: On Facebook there are may anti-Israeli/Anti-Jewish groups, etc. Follow the links if they are still there right now. I am going to proceed to look again at the internet and bring here the List of "bad jews" monitored by some people from the University of Jerusalem, denouncing Ettinger, Ofir and others. I hope all the links are still there. This is very serious. Back in few minuets. Artethical ( talk) 15:03, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I think that this is clear by now that Ettinger was "lynched" in purpose. I suggest that we proceed to correct the damage. You can look at Google Books, and also you can Google her to find what I have found about this coordinated "witch-hunting". I am sorry that I do not want enter this. You are invited to verify. Since her references are correct and corresponding to Wikipedia rules and criteria, I suggest that we respect the rules and criteria, and simply return in good faith, respect and dignity, and undo the unjustified deletions. I will do the best that I can in this direction. Artethical ( talk) 16:59, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I want to assume good respect and am simply stating that you are perhaps differently informed. No offense. Freud and Lacan is one level, the others are another level in which Ettinger fits. It looks that you have taken the initiative to remove her from many different pages, I am still trying to assume good faith. You know by now what was going on, we seem to have different conclusions. Artethical ( talk) 17:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
I have left you a message on your page too. I am sorry if I have upset you, I see that you have done your best and in a good way. We simply don't agree on this, but I sincerely want to remain polite and to contribute to general knowledge. I am very dedicated to the subject. But - no bad feelings. We are informed on the field in a different way. The future will tell. Best, Artethical ( talk) 21:38, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Can someone re-write the theory section such that it makes sense to someone coming to it fresh - at present it is full of undefined non-standard terminology and concepts. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.200.208.190 ( talk) 17:54, 6 January 2009 (UTC)
not sure what the exact wiki policy on this is, but the whole article scream off brachia l. ettinger writing this article herself. The indepthdness of the ideas and unnecessary description seem odd, and almost promotional. The writing is downright rude in it's inaccessibility and language use, I propose a simplification. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.93.40.178 ( talk) 14:00, 25 March 2013 (UTC)
I know that it's "feminist film theory" and all, but Wikipedia seems to be using all the weird invented words that nobody but Ettinger has used ("matrixial", "metramorphosis", "m/Other", "com-passion" etc.): this might fly in some journals, but unless an actual meaning can be pinned down, it shouldn't fly on Wikipedia. 86.160.127.102 ( talk) 19:00, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
[moved from my talk page 22:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)]
Dear BhNY International and prominent are standard in wikipedia for artists of this huge international status. This artist has studios in few different countries all over the world and participating in the most important international exhibitions. The number of books dedicated by art historians pf the first order is without precedence. Man artist of this status are considered inrernational and prominent. Man philosopher of this standard and status are considered ageless and international. I am asking you please do not delete and replace again without discussion first. We might need more discussants. Artethical ( talk) 12:19, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I added a "peacock" tag which unfortunately was removed. Much of this article reads like an art gallery bio. It isn't at all encyclopedic. Here are some examples of the problems-
etc. Bhny ( talk) 22:22, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
I don't understand why there is an exhaustive list of group and solo shows (obviously taken from a gallery handout). Groups shows by their nature are not usually notable for an artist. If any of these solo shows are notable then we should explain why. Artists have shows, unless it is notable there's no point in listing them. Jackson_Pollock, Picasso, Georgia O'Keeffe don't have a listing of shows. Important shows are just mentioned in prose. Bhny ( talk) 13:50, 5 September 2014 (UTC)
Look, I understand that critical theorists (especially francophone critical theorists) feel the need to write in a jargon comprehensible to only themselves and a select few initiates, but does Wikipedia have to employ the same jargon in writing about them? Ettinger may not be concerned about being understood by the general public, but Wikipedia should be. As things currently stand—and as they have stood for years, as this talk page makes evident—large sections of this article are virtually incomprehensible. The "psychoanalysis" section is composed largely of weird neologisms that Ettinger herself made up and that she seems to be the only one who uses. A brief selection of the best nonsense jargon in the article:
woman(girl)-to-woman(mother); differentiating-in-jointness by borderlinking; the archaic the m/Other (Autremere); the 'matrixial gaze' and the process of 'co-poiesis'; feel-knowing; the phantasmatic and traumatic real of the pregnant becoming-mother, are trans-inscribed; etc...
Now, again, if Ettinger wants to use this kind of jargon in psychoanalytic theory (and I can't imagine how this would be conveyed in a therapeutic context), that's her business. But Wikipedia is no place for this kind of nonsense language. I would like to propose, as has been suggested on here many times over the years, either a translation of Ettinger's theory into a comprehensible language devoid of one person's idioglossia, or the significant pruning of the theory section of the article, which I can't imagine conveys any real information to more than a handful of people. Tigercompanion25 ( talk) 19:34, 19 May 2015 (UTC)
I have done a copy edit to the end of the “Psychoanalyst” section. I would delete half of that section simply because it discusses her work, and is not biographical. I would also delete the “Psychoanalytic Theory” section, as well as the “Fascience Forum for Ettinger Studies" for the same reason. I would also delete all but the most recent three or four publications, exhibitions, conversations etc…
I had tagged numerous sentences that needed citations intending to go back and check further for citations. In the meantime, someone removed them all and replaced them with an overarching Citations tag. Given the lack of credible material on Ettinger, I don’t think I’ll spend the time on this.
Here
http://baadgallery.org/wp-content/uploads/CV_Bracha-Ettinger.pdf I have found a pdf that might possibly be a reference for her art/writing etc… except that, given the overwhelming detail, it was likely written by the subject herself.
I also found another pdf, again by the subject , which I can’t now locate, that provided very detailed autobiographical detail.
I'm assuming that the "Copy Edit" can't be dedeemed complete until all the deletions are done, and I assume that can't happen until a consensus (among whom?) is reached on this. So i leave it in its present state.
Twofingered Typist (
talk)
20:12, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
I can try to to reverse the order of those sections to begin with. Doraannao ( talk) 05:46, 5 September 2015 (UTC)
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Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 18:18, 25 May 2017 (UTC)
Just look at it... Jesus. Equinox ◑ 14:28, 5 January 2022 (UTC)