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I found 2 different birth years for Bob Kane: 1915 and 1916. In this article is 1916, but the majority of sites seems to report 1915. May anyone help to solve the question? Marcok 10:55, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Because Kane had already submitted the proposal for Batman to his editors at DC Comics, he is the only person given official credit for the creation of Batman."
This is not why Kane is given official credit. National Comics -- not DC, which didn't exist yet at the time -- was suing Siegel and Shuster over the rights to Superman, and Kane lied to them about his age. By claiming he was younger than he was, he was able to convince them that the original contract he signed would be null and void, and that he would take the character elsewhere if he were not given a much better deal. Part of the deal he was given (in addition to a lot more money) was that every story Batman ever appeared in would include "Batman created by Bob Kane" on the credits page.
The book "Men of Tomorrow" has a lot more information about this. I didn't want to edit it straight in because I wanted somebody to word it better, so it didn't seem like an attack on Kane, but it's pretty factual that he lied about his age (that's why his birth year is occassionally reported wrong, see above). ThatGuamGuy 16:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)sean
Another interesting story about Kane and copyrights is this one by Arnold Drake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.210.245.62 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 16 March 2007
Just to add my two cents. While Finger may have contributed (alot) to the character I think what we're really dealing with is a matter of semantics. Look at television shows. The CREATOR is generally the person who wrote the pilot, although the show could be "conceived" by someone else. While I'm not sure what the rule is with Comics, one could argue that Kane is the "Creator" of Batman but the co-conceiver along with Bill Finger. Fact is, I'm sure many people over the years have helped people come up with ideas for many things, but they aren't listed as co-creators. :: ehmjay 18:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
== Bob Kane's , Robert Kahn's Family ==Melvin Kahn,Dick Greyson,Robin, The Boy Wonder , My dad are one in the same.
HI just want to add a little trivia, Who was the real Robin AKA Boy Wonder and where did he originate from? Well I can answer that I am a cousin of Bob Kane's,Robert Kahn. And I can say for sure that the likeness of Robin The Boy Wonder was taken from a little cousin of Bob's who was my father. Bob's first cousin Melvin Kahn the true Boy Wonder. My father was with Bob when they signed autographs at a cigar convention at one of the hotels in the catskills in the 1960's My dad signed as The Boy Wonder. I have pictures of them together and a signed Batman And Me Book to my family. There where many of these autographes througout the first years of Batman And Robin. I am Just looking for some recognition for my Dad who is deceased since 2001. He was given permission from Bob to tell his story but then someone threatened to sue whoever would print that. My father was embarrased and humiliated so my dad did nothing. All I want is for the people of the world to know the true story behind The Boy Wonder. Sincerly The children of Melvin Kahn The Boy Wonder Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.17.82 ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 16 June 2005
Seems bat.gif was deleted by User:OrphanBot, so for now I'm pasting the code from the Batman page that includes Image:Detective27.JPG. -- Ktdreyer 10:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the Jerry Robinson image from this page. (It which appears rightly on the Jerry Robinson page.) An encyclopedia, as opposed to a newspaper and magazine, does not have images of people who being quoted about the subject — it has pictures of the subject. -- Tenebrae 19:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that I purchased the Gang Busters In Action pulp book to find out if those swipes are real after seeing that blog. I found out that they are in fact real. He swiped four pictures from the same book. Anyway, if someone wants a source can the book itself be used rather than those blog entries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.213.159.163 ( talk • contribs) 22:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to argue to remove Bill Finger as being listed as co-creator, but I'm not sure about the statement "In later years, Kane named his studio writer Bill Finger as co-creator." I haven't read the book referenced, but I was made to understand that he said he regretted not crediting Finger as the writer on the stories, which is different from wanting to credit him as co-creator. Can anyone quote the relevant passage(s)? Rhindle The Red 06:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I think those Finger comments (Kane's and Goulart's) are better served inside the article itself and not in the introduction. Rhindle The Red 16:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to add my two cents. While Finger may have contributed (alot) to the character I think what we're really dealing with is a matter of semantics. Look at television shows. The CREATOR is generally the person who wrote the pilot, although the show could be "conceived" by someone else. While I'm not sure what the rule is with Comics, one could argue that Kane is the "Creator" of Batman but the co-conceiver along with Bill Finger. Fact is, I'm sure many people over the years have helped people come up with ideas for many things, but they aren't listed as co-creators. :: ehmjay 18:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehmjay ( talk • contribs)
After months and months of the same obsessive fan's non-encyclopedic edits under different anonymous IPs, here is what I've placed on the most recent, at User talk:192.80.65.234
--Batman--
Please STOP your obsessive campaign of disruptiveness on the Bob Kane page. You are doing this simply to disrupt Wikipedia. The proof is that if it were otherwise, you would be registered rather than doing this through a series of anonymous IP. You should be ashamed of yourself. -- Tenebrae 18:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Please stop ignoring the consensus of other editors and reverting edits that the majority have found inappropriate for this article.
Wikipedia works via consensus. I urge you to register and become a responsible, accountable member of our community and WikiProject Comics. It's a great place to be, and we're all good about discussing things. Please consider joining us! -- Tenebrae 03:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've protected the page so that, hopefully, discussion will happen on this page to resolve the dispute. -- Samuel Wantman 07:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
User:207.145.67.122 is apparently a sock-puppet of User:Bernard ferrell, making the same edits and putting similar rants in the edit summaries, making bad-faith accusations not only of other editors but of established journalists/columnists.
In response to his remark about grammar and spelling: "...suggested a boy in a 'super costume' named Mercury" is saying that the costume is named Mercury. He redlinked The Spirit by, for no reason, spelling it The SPIRIT. His edits have had other such errors.
His fulminating edits have been reverted by a number of other editors, whom he accuses of not using facts despite numerous citations and footnotes. We have had to protect this page in the past and I truly hope we do not again. I ask that 207/Bernard begin working with other editors and discussing things here first.-- Tenebrae 19:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I just reverted the most recent change. The info MAY be accurate, but it's uncited and the offered citation ( [1] goes to a dead page. I was able to find the CORRECT link [2] and the added details are something that is more appropriate for Bill Finger's page. The detail adds nothing we don't already know: Robin came out of a conversation Kane and Finger had, with Robinson offering his POV. So .. team effort. All that detail is already included in the article. Also? These edits keep putting [[User:Bernard ferrell|Bernard ferrell]] 18:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC) at the top of the section. This is obvious a straight revert to a bad version, made without consensus to this talk page. -- Ipstenu ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The book that seems to be in discussion was an album that compiled a series of interviews that took place in a fanzine called "Comics Interview". The Super Special was published in 1988 in celebration of the major success of Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT. The volume was re-printed in anticipation of Tim Burton's 1989 film BATMAN. This book is out-of-print but I cannot beleive that I am the only Wikipedian who owns a copy. However, I did offer to fax xeroxes if a supervisor needed them. Yes, I whole-heartedly agree that Robin, like much of the product of the Kane studio, was a team effort. However, some people,fans and professionals alike, try to refer to Robin as the creation of "Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson" as if all Kane did was pick his nose and steal credit. As Kane would have put it "Hogwash!". These errors and disputes usually stem from bad research, lazy writers or even vindictive ones. However, I do plead guilty to errors I have made in terms of using the "Wiki" format. I'm still getting there.
Bernard ferrell 14:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that I can be aggressive in debates,however, I felt compelled because some of the sources that have been used in discussing Mr.Kane are far from objective. As I pointed out on the Finger page, there is only controversy concerning Kane,simply because he was an anomaly in the American Comic BOOK industry. In comic books, creators are treated like "hired hands" who get paid crappy wages. The fact that Kane had as much power as he had is quite remarkable.Even so, after the Infantino Regime came to power, they wanted to get rid of Kane and other Golden Age professionals and control everything under their roof. This is typical in American comic books but not so in Japan and Europe where creators own part or all of the Character, splitting things like merchandising and any other projects with the publisher. Finally, when it comes to assistants, they don't always receive credit but there is a venue where they can create their own character or series and pitch it to a publisher; rather than try to ride the coat-tails of their former employer. In Amerca, sadly, in the absence of such an arrangement, "credit" is sometimes all that is availble. My contention is that instead of taking cheap shots at Kane,some of the people who work in the industry should work for a system either similar to what they have in Japan or better wages as in our animation field. DC does have "creator owned" projects, but they are usually reserved for proven talent. As for grammatical errors, in my own capacity as a writer, I tend to write,re-write and re-write again but this format does not allow me that luxury. -- The Batmaniac
This is my final word on the subject. (Let's work on the Finger Page.) Yes, I beleive in fairness when it comes to the subject of Mr.Kane. However, as we have seen in the past few months exposing myths is a tough chore (such as "Kane never drew anything", "Robin was named after Mr.Robinson's last name", etc). While I agree that it is now a balanced page, whereas beforehand,it certainly wasn't, my contention is that Kane did nothing wrong. It was his comic strip all along and he had the right to hire whomever he wanted to. However, for historical purposes, others, like myself, are interested in seeing that the strips' development was not a solo act. (With the exception of Frank Frazetta, we still don't know anything about Al Capp's former assistants. Mr.Frazetta actually preferred that we discuss the present rather than his past as a "ghost".)Current comic book cartoonists like Todd McFarlane give their assistants "credit" but the visible "ghosts" don't own any of the characters nor are they entitled to do so. Still, some of Mr.Kane's peers,then and now, resented his success and this actually affects the "impartiality" of their comments. No one would dare accuse Matt Groening of not doing any of the animating on "The Simpsons" but even if he didn't, it's still his... aww, you get the picture. In conclusion, whenever we select a source, we should still do the research before we accept it as truth.-- The Batmaniac
I know next to nothing about this subject, and certainly have to stake in it one way or the other. I entered into this discussion page to let you know it is painfully obvious that the article is not objective, and that one can arrive at this conclusion from reading only the first paragraph. Indeed, that's all I've read so far. How can anyone defend as appropriate having two of the first three sentences of a biographical article about Bob Kane be about Bill Finger?
Furthermore, regardless of who is correct, this is not a matter that should receive more than a passing mention in this particular article. The vast majority of people who know of Bob Kane at all know him as the creator of Batman--not "that guy that screwed over Bill Finger. You may think this is unfair, and you may even be correct, but this is not the place for you to air your grievances.-- Ron.Andrews 22:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this article neglected to mention Kane's tenure with the Fleischer Animation Studio. I think its pertinence has much to do with how he ran his own comic book shop as his modus operandi seems to mimic the early stages of cartoon production: concept,script then production. If I might chime in a little about the new discussion, this is why I was so vocal about getting the story straight. Bob Kane never "screwed" over Finger. Why? Because they were never partners. Finger worked for Kane. A simple analogy: What if you owned a house and everybody on the block said it was ugly? Perturbed, you then decide to call in a decorator who SUGGESTS that you paint it a nice blue; in turn, you hire that decorator to accomplish this; you pay him or her and now everyone likes your home--is the decorator entitled to own your home? How about putting their name and address on your mailbox? Of course not! If I had worked for Kane would I have expected a bonus for any suggestions I made? No, but it would have been nice. Would I have expected to have my name anywhere on it? No, especially since I didn't get it on previous work I had done with him. I would have done precisely what Bill did, thank him for the opportunity and thhen go elsewhere. If Bill got "screwed" by anybody, it wasn't Kane. Still, I do notice one thing. Bill frequently got chewed out by the DC editors for being late with scripts. But, he wasn't fired for it and they kept him on, which is generally unheard of. SOMEBODY liked having him around. I can't say for certain if Kane had anything to do with it but we know he loved Bill's work and a lot of Finger's Batman work for DC was drawn by Moldoff\Kane...
--
The Batmaniac —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
192.80.65.235 (
talk) 17:17, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
"additionally" refers to the same Steranko column:
"I was very much influenced by The Shadow and Doc Savage, The Phantom, things of that sort." -Bill Finger, Steranko article
In the same article Kane mentioned his own influences: "My early influences in the comics field were Chester Gould's) DICK TRACY, (Billy DeBeck's) BARNEY GOOGLE, (Alex Raymond's) FLASH GORDAN." -Kane, Steranko article.
"As I changed from being a gag cartoonist to an illustrative artist, Milton Canif was my greatest inspiration..." -Kane, from his autobio BATMAN AND ME
-- The Batmaniac —Preceding comment was added at 18:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
As I have stated elsewhere, the Jerry Robinson article from The Comics Journal should not be looked upon as the LAST WORD or authority for the simple reason that he often contradicts himself when it comes to small details. From Steranko to Alter Ego to the TCJ. Also, it was over 60 years ago.Not only this but he just simply wasn't in charge of things. He would occasionally kibbitz with Kane and Finger but by his own admission he was focused on school.
About ROBIN. Kane never claimed he wanted to add a sidekick. He just wasn't opposed to it because when he did Peter Pupp, he had a sidekick in that strip. Finger wanted a sidekick because, as he said, he got bored with writing monologues for Bats. Kane wanted the sidekick to be a kid more likely because of the popularity of DICK TRACY's JUNIOR,which was HUGE. (Kane acknowledged this but never admitted to a direct connection.) However,by himself, Finger never introduced a kid sidekick in other strips, they were always adult men or women. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 16:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb ( talk) 15:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
In one of the scenes when the Batmobile races through Gotham , the film focusses on a man in a fedora and grey trenchcoat , stepping back in amazement as the vehicle drives past him...that man is Bob Kane! Feel free to freeze frame your DVD copy. Bob was on the set of the film at various times , Jack Nicholson , in various interviews , has mentioned dining with Bob Kane because he was such a Batfan as a kid. It's true , Bob did not portray the newspaper cartoonist , but it IS him on the Gotham steets! Harvey J Satan ( talk) 04:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Some of the links given in this article no longer exist, they need checking Lung salad ( talk) 19:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
In the quote, Robinson seems to suggest that it was Finger who came up with the idea for a boy sidekick when Bill himself admitted that it was Bob Kane's idea. Bill was an avid reader of pulp heroes, but many of these had either an adult male or female for a "Watson" or associate\partner. Some have speculated that DC wanted to get more kids to read their books and they suggested it, but that doesn't make sense as kids were already their primary audience. But Kane admitted in his autobio that Junior Tracy was already in Dick Tracy and was one source for the "Robin" concept. From reading many books about the ...Tracy comic strip, I can say that Junior was a very popular character. In his interview with The Comics Journal, Robinson insisted that Finger had the idea and that is what drives the comment that I feel should be deleted, he was registering a POV opinion, but in that self-same article he admitted that he was so busy with school work, he really didn't know how Kane and Finger worked together. Normally, I would just go ahead and remove it, but I wanted to run it by Wiki first. MARK VENTURE ( talk) 22:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bob Kane/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
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==Peace Negotiations==
Greetings, to all my Fellow Batman fans and (now) Wikipedians. I am the persistent editor to the Bob Kane page who dares to call himself "The Batmaniac".Mainly, the Caped Crusader has been a part of my life since I was 2 years old. In fact, I am old enough to have seen the Adam West show when it was in its original run. While that does not qualify me to be the defintive Bat-Expert (I defer to Joe Desris) I do know a little. I admit to being a Bob Kane fan but I am equally a fan of Bill Finger so there is no bias on my part. I am only interested in truth and fairness, not in perpetuating fatuous distortions. I am also a huge fan of independent comics and support creator rights; while holding a particular antipathy for the "assembly line" system that has evolved in American comics but is rare in Europe and Japan. Having said that let me summarize our dilema. For years, after successfully negotiating partial ownership for his character, "The Batman", with exceptions,Kane generally stayed away from the comics industry and fandom at large. During that time, so-called "experts" began crediting Kane's success exclusively to his staff while demonizing Mr. Kane. While this in no way diminishes their contributions (expecially those of the incomparable Mr. Bill Finger) it just points out how we fans have been MISLED and USED. We must remember two things: 1. Bob Kane never promised Mr.Finger co-ownership or a byline interest in his comic strip. In fact, Mr.Finger was free to leave if he was ever unhappy-- which he did after two years. Mr. Finger never held anything against Mr.Kane, and as fans of Finger, we shouldn't either. Bill could have created his own character,without Kane, and brokered a similar deal as Kane's but for some reason, this did not happen. This was not Kane's fault and we shouldn't act as if it was. 2. Attacking Kane for obtaining control over Batman makes no sense,especially given the way this business is structured in America. A similar thing happened when IMAGE was formed a few years ago. Industry "professionals" attacked Mr.McFarlane and company for creating their own studios. Why? It was a clear example of the "oppressed" defending the "oppressor". (Frank Miller once commented on this strange phenomenon in the Comics Journal which can be read in his monograph). Let's stop demonizing Kane and stereotyping Mr.Finger as some "fingered" loser who couldn't stand up for himself. If anyone "fingered" Mr.Finger, it wasn't Bob Kane. -Rex Ferrell- |
Last edited at 18:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello Tenebrae. Like you saw, I have the book "Batman & Me", An Autobiography By Bob Kane With Tom Andrae from Eclipse Books, 1989. I will write to you in the exact words 2 paragraphs and the first portion of a third from the page 131:
- Eddy Duchin's romantic keyboard was also instrumental in influencing me to get married. I escorted my fiancée, Beverly, to the Starlight Roof of the Waldorf-Astoria to celebrate my birthday. I was quite friendly with Eddy and he played our favorite song, "All the Things You Are."
- I was mesmerized by the magic fingers of the Duchin melodies and the champagne, which motivated me to propose to my best girl. We were married in 1949. And so I have Mr. Duchin to thank for the years of married life which produced a lovely daughter, Deborah. Unfortunately, the marriage didn't last. C'est la vie.
- I came to Hollywood again in 1957, while I was getting a divorce. .....
*Tenebrae, I hope it could help you. Thanks. --
Danielvis08 (
talk) 02:14, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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Putting aside Kane's creative bankruptcy, the intro is not very precise an misleading; in decades of publication there is no way a single man has created most of dc characters, change ot to " a great number" or something 37.159.122.155 ( talk) 18:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Jim Steranko told a story on Twitter of an encounter that he had with Bob Kane at the San Diego Con, presumably in the early 1970s, which allegedly had witnesses. It would interesting to corroborate the story and include it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.125.95 ( talk) 18:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
WTF? Bob Kane the thief didn’t even “co-create” Batman.
Wolfquack (
talk) 18:59, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
Bob Kane received a peer review by Wikipedia editors, which is now archived. It may contain ideas you can use to improve this article. |
This
level-5 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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I found 2 different birth years for Bob Kane: 1915 and 1916. In this article is 1916, but the majority of sites seems to report 1915. May anyone help to solve the question? Marcok 10:55, 17 Jan 2005 (UTC)
"Because Kane had already submitted the proposal for Batman to his editors at DC Comics, he is the only person given official credit for the creation of Batman."
This is not why Kane is given official credit. National Comics -- not DC, which didn't exist yet at the time -- was suing Siegel and Shuster over the rights to Superman, and Kane lied to them about his age. By claiming he was younger than he was, he was able to convince them that the original contract he signed would be null and void, and that he would take the character elsewhere if he were not given a much better deal. Part of the deal he was given (in addition to a lot more money) was that every story Batman ever appeared in would include "Batman created by Bob Kane" on the credits page.
The book "Men of Tomorrow" has a lot more information about this. I didn't want to edit it straight in because I wanted somebody to word it better, so it didn't seem like an attack on Kane, but it's pretty factual that he lied about his age (that's why his birth year is occassionally reported wrong, see above). ThatGuamGuy 16:08, 23 August 2006 (UTC)sean
Another interesting story about Kane and copyrights is this one by Arnold Drake. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.210.245.62 ( talk • contribs) 16:54, 16 March 2007
Just to add my two cents. While Finger may have contributed (alot) to the character I think what we're really dealing with is a matter of semantics. Look at television shows. The CREATOR is generally the person who wrote the pilot, although the show could be "conceived" by someone else. While I'm not sure what the rule is with Comics, one could argue that Kane is the "Creator" of Batman but the co-conceiver along with Bill Finger. Fact is, I'm sure many people over the years have helped people come up with ideas for many things, but they aren't listed as co-creators. :: ehmjay 18:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
== Bob Kane's , Robert Kahn's Family ==Melvin Kahn,Dick Greyson,Robin, The Boy Wonder , My dad are one in the same.
HI just want to add a little trivia, Who was the real Robin AKA Boy Wonder and where did he originate from? Well I can answer that I am a cousin of Bob Kane's,Robert Kahn. And I can say for sure that the likeness of Robin The Boy Wonder was taken from a little cousin of Bob's who was my father. Bob's first cousin Melvin Kahn the true Boy Wonder. My father was with Bob when they signed autographs at a cigar convention at one of the hotels in the catskills in the 1960's My dad signed as The Boy Wonder. I have pictures of them together and a signed Batman And Me Book to my family. There where many of these autographes througout the first years of Batman And Robin. I am Just looking for some recognition for my Dad who is deceased since 2001. He was given permission from Bob to tell his story but then someone threatened to sue whoever would print that. My father was embarrased and humiliated so my dad did nothing. All I want is for the people of the world to know the true story behind The Boy Wonder. Sincerly The children of Melvin Kahn The Boy Wonder Retrieved from " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Kane" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.44.17.82 ( talk • contribs) 22:42, 16 June 2005
Seems bat.gif was deleted by User:OrphanBot, so for now I'm pasting the code from the Batman page that includes Image:Detective27.JPG. -- Ktdreyer 10:51, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
I've deleted the Jerry Robinson image from this page. (It which appears rightly on the Jerry Robinson page.) An encyclopedia, as opposed to a newspaper and magazine, does not have images of people who being quoted about the subject — it has pictures of the subject. -- Tenebrae 19:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to point out that I purchased the Gang Busters In Action pulp book to find out if those swipes are real after seeing that blog. I found out that they are in fact real. He swiped four pictures from the same book. Anyway, if someone wants a source can the book itself be used rather than those blog entries? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.213.159.163 ( talk • contribs) 22:58, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm not going to argue to remove Bill Finger as being listed as co-creator, but I'm not sure about the statement "In later years, Kane named his studio writer Bill Finger as co-creator." I haven't read the book referenced, but I was made to understand that he said he regretted not crediting Finger as the writer on the stories, which is different from wanting to credit him as co-creator. Can anyone quote the relevant passage(s)? Rhindle The Red 06:14, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
I think those Finger comments (Kane's and Goulart's) are better served inside the article itself and not in the introduction. Rhindle The Red 16:05, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
Just to add my two cents. While Finger may have contributed (alot) to the character I think what we're really dealing with is a matter of semantics. Look at television shows. The CREATOR is generally the person who wrote the pilot, although the show could be "conceived" by someone else. While I'm not sure what the rule is with Comics, one could argue that Kane is the "Creator" of Batman but the co-conceiver along with Bill Finger. Fact is, I'm sure many people over the years have helped people come up with ideas for many things, but they aren't listed as co-creators. :: ehmjay 18:56, 7 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ehmjay ( talk • contribs)
After months and months of the same obsessive fan's non-encyclopedic edits under different anonymous IPs, here is what I've placed on the most recent, at User talk:192.80.65.234
--Batman--
Please STOP your obsessive campaign of disruptiveness on the Bob Kane page. You are doing this simply to disrupt Wikipedia. The proof is that if it were otherwise, you would be registered rather than doing this through a series of anonymous IP. You should be ashamed of yourself. -- Tenebrae 18:11, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Please stop ignoring the consensus of other editors and reverting edits that the majority have found inappropriate for this article.
Wikipedia works via consensus. I urge you to register and become a responsible, accountable member of our community and WikiProject Comics. It's a great place to be, and we're all good about discussing things. Please consider joining us! -- Tenebrae 03:59, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
I've protected the page so that, hopefully, discussion will happen on this page to resolve the dispute. -- Samuel Wantman 07:07, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
User:207.145.67.122 is apparently a sock-puppet of User:Bernard ferrell, making the same edits and putting similar rants in the edit summaries, making bad-faith accusations not only of other editors but of established journalists/columnists.
In response to his remark about grammar and spelling: "...suggested a boy in a 'super costume' named Mercury" is saying that the costume is named Mercury. He redlinked The Spirit by, for no reason, spelling it The SPIRIT. His edits have had other such errors.
His fulminating edits have been reverted by a number of other editors, whom he accuses of not using facts despite numerous citations and footnotes. We have had to protect this page in the past and I truly hope we do not again. I ask that 207/Bernard begin working with other editors and discussing things here first.-- Tenebrae 19:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
I just reverted the most recent change. The info MAY be accurate, but it's uncited and the offered citation ( [1] goes to a dead page. I was able to find the CORRECT link [2] and the added details are something that is more appropriate for Bill Finger's page. The detail adds nothing we don't already know: Robin came out of a conversation Kane and Finger had, with Robinson offering his POV. So .. team effort. All that detail is already included in the article. Also? These edits keep putting [[User:Bernard ferrell|Bernard ferrell]] 18:17, 7 July 2007 (UTC) at the top of the section. This is obvious a straight revert to a bad version, made without consensus to this talk page. -- Ipstenu ( talk • contribs) 17:35, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
The book that seems to be in discussion was an album that compiled a series of interviews that took place in a fanzine called "Comics Interview". The Super Special was published in 1988 in celebration of the major success of Frank Miller's DARK KNIGHT. The volume was re-printed in anticipation of Tim Burton's 1989 film BATMAN. This book is out-of-print but I cannot beleive that I am the only Wikipedian who owns a copy. However, I did offer to fax xeroxes if a supervisor needed them. Yes, I whole-heartedly agree that Robin, like much of the product of the Kane studio, was a team effort. However, some people,fans and professionals alike, try to refer to Robin as the creation of "Bill Finger and Jerry Robinson" as if all Kane did was pick his nose and steal credit. As Kane would have put it "Hogwash!". These errors and disputes usually stem from bad research, lazy writers or even vindictive ones. However, I do plead guilty to errors I have made in terms of using the "Wiki" format. I'm still getting there.
Bernard ferrell 14:46, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
I agree that I can be aggressive in debates,however, I felt compelled because some of the sources that have been used in discussing Mr.Kane are far from objective. As I pointed out on the Finger page, there is only controversy concerning Kane,simply because he was an anomaly in the American Comic BOOK industry. In comic books, creators are treated like "hired hands" who get paid crappy wages. The fact that Kane had as much power as he had is quite remarkable.Even so, after the Infantino Regime came to power, they wanted to get rid of Kane and other Golden Age professionals and control everything under their roof. This is typical in American comic books but not so in Japan and Europe where creators own part or all of the Character, splitting things like merchandising and any other projects with the publisher. Finally, when it comes to assistants, they don't always receive credit but there is a venue where they can create their own character or series and pitch it to a publisher; rather than try to ride the coat-tails of their former employer. In Amerca, sadly, in the absence of such an arrangement, "credit" is sometimes all that is availble. My contention is that instead of taking cheap shots at Kane,some of the people who work in the industry should work for a system either similar to what they have in Japan or better wages as in our animation field. DC does have "creator owned" projects, but they are usually reserved for proven talent. As for grammatical errors, in my own capacity as a writer, I tend to write,re-write and re-write again but this format does not allow me that luxury. -- The Batmaniac
This is my final word on the subject. (Let's work on the Finger Page.) Yes, I beleive in fairness when it comes to the subject of Mr.Kane. However, as we have seen in the past few months exposing myths is a tough chore (such as "Kane never drew anything", "Robin was named after Mr.Robinson's last name", etc). While I agree that it is now a balanced page, whereas beforehand,it certainly wasn't, my contention is that Kane did nothing wrong. It was his comic strip all along and he had the right to hire whomever he wanted to. However, for historical purposes, others, like myself, are interested in seeing that the strips' development was not a solo act. (With the exception of Frank Frazetta, we still don't know anything about Al Capp's former assistants. Mr.Frazetta actually preferred that we discuss the present rather than his past as a "ghost".)Current comic book cartoonists like Todd McFarlane give their assistants "credit" but the visible "ghosts" don't own any of the characters nor are they entitled to do so. Still, some of Mr.Kane's peers,then and now, resented his success and this actually affects the "impartiality" of their comments. No one would dare accuse Matt Groening of not doing any of the animating on "The Simpsons" but even if he didn't, it's still his... aww, you get the picture. In conclusion, whenever we select a source, we should still do the research before we accept it as truth.-- The Batmaniac
I know next to nothing about this subject, and certainly have to stake in it one way or the other. I entered into this discussion page to let you know it is painfully obvious that the article is not objective, and that one can arrive at this conclusion from reading only the first paragraph. Indeed, that's all I've read so far. How can anyone defend as appropriate having two of the first three sentences of a biographical article about Bob Kane be about Bill Finger?
Furthermore, regardless of who is correct, this is not a matter that should receive more than a passing mention in this particular article. The vast majority of people who know of Bob Kane at all know him as the creator of Batman--not "that guy that screwed over Bill Finger. You may think this is unfair, and you may even be correct, but this is not the place for you to air your grievances.-- Ron.Andrews 22:56, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
I noticed this article neglected to mention Kane's tenure with the Fleischer Animation Studio. I think its pertinence has much to do with how he ran his own comic book shop as his modus operandi seems to mimic the early stages of cartoon production: concept,script then production. If I might chime in a little about the new discussion, this is why I was so vocal about getting the story straight. Bob Kane never "screwed" over Finger. Why? Because they were never partners. Finger worked for Kane. A simple analogy: What if you owned a house and everybody on the block said it was ugly? Perturbed, you then decide to call in a decorator who SUGGESTS that you paint it a nice blue; in turn, you hire that decorator to accomplish this; you pay him or her and now everyone likes your home--is the decorator entitled to own your home? How about putting their name and address on your mailbox? Of course not! If I had worked for Kane would I have expected a bonus for any suggestions I made? No, but it would have been nice. Would I have expected to have my name anywhere on it? No, especially since I didn't get it on previous work I had done with him. I would have done precisely what Bill did, thank him for the opportunity and thhen go elsewhere. If Bill got "screwed" by anybody, it wasn't Kane. Still, I do notice one thing. Bill frequently got chewed out by the DC editors for being late with scripts. But, he wasn't fired for it and they kept him on, which is generally unheard of. SOMEBODY liked having him around. I can't say for certain if Kane had anything to do with it but we know he loved Bill's work and a lot of Finger's Batman work for DC was drawn by Moldoff\Kane...
--
The Batmaniac —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
192.80.65.235 (
talk) 17:17, August 29, 2007 (UTC)
"additionally" refers to the same Steranko column:
"I was very much influenced by The Shadow and Doc Savage, The Phantom, things of that sort." -Bill Finger, Steranko article
In the same article Kane mentioned his own influences: "My early influences in the comics field were Chester Gould's) DICK TRACY, (Billy DeBeck's) BARNEY GOOGLE, (Alex Raymond's) FLASH GORDAN." -Kane, Steranko article.
"As I changed from being a gag cartoonist to an illustrative artist, Milton Canif was my greatest inspiration..." -Kane, from his autobio BATMAN AND ME
-- The Batmaniac —Preceding comment was added at 18:11, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
As I have stated elsewhere, the Jerry Robinson article from The Comics Journal should not be looked upon as the LAST WORD or authority for the simple reason that he often contradicts himself when it comes to small details. From Steranko to Alter Ego to the TCJ. Also, it was over 60 years ago.Not only this but he just simply wasn't in charge of things. He would occasionally kibbitz with Kane and Finger but by his own admission he was focused on school.
About ROBIN. Kane never claimed he wanted to add a sidekick. He just wasn't opposed to it because when he did Peter Pupp, he had a sidekick in that strip. Finger wanted a sidekick because, as he said, he got bored with writing monologues for Bats. Kane wanted the sidekick to be a kid more likely because of the popularity of DICK TRACY's JUNIOR,which was HUGE. (Kane acknowledged this but never admitted to a direct connection.) However,by himself, Finger never introduced a kid sidekick in other strips, they were always adult men or women. Bernard ferrell ( talk) 16:35, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
This article needs the B-Class checklist filled in to remain a B-Class article for the Comics WikiProject. If the checklist is not filled in by 7th August this article will be re-assessed as C-Class. The checklist should be filled out referencing the guidance given at Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team/Assessment/B-Class criteria. For further details please contact the Comics WikiProject. Comics-awb ( talk) 15:51, 31 July 2008 (UTC)
In one of the scenes when the Batmobile races through Gotham , the film focusses on a man in a fedora and grey trenchcoat , stepping back in amazement as the vehicle drives past him...that man is Bob Kane! Feel free to freeze frame your DVD copy. Bob was on the set of the film at various times , Jack Nicholson , in various interviews , has mentioned dining with Bob Kane because he was such a Batfan as a kid. It's true , Bob did not portray the newspaper cartoonist , but it IS him on the Gotham steets! Harvey J Satan ( talk) 04:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)
Some of the links given in this article no longer exist, they need checking Lung salad ( talk) 19:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
In the quote, Robinson seems to suggest that it was Finger who came up with the idea for a boy sidekick when Bill himself admitted that it was Bob Kane's idea. Bill was an avid reader of pulp heroes, but many of these had either an adult male or female for a "Watson" or associate\partner. Some have speculated that DC wanted to get more kids to read their books and they suggested it, but that doesn't make sense as kids were already their primary audience. But Kane admitted in his autobio that Junior Tracy was already in Dick Tracy and was one source for the "Robin" concept. From reading many books about the ...Tracy comic strip, I can say that Junior was a very popular character. In his interview with The Comics Journal, Robinson insisted that Finger had the idea and that is what drives the comment that I feel should be deleted, he was registering a POV opinion, but in that self-same article he admitted that he was so busy with school work, he really didn't know how Kane and Finger worked together. Normally, I would just go ahead and remove it, but I wanted to run it by Wiki first. MARK VENTURE ( talk) 22:11, 27 December 2015 (UTC)
The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Bob Kane/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.
Comment(s) | Press [show] to view → |
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==Peace Negotiations==
Greetings, to all my Fellow Batman fans and (now) Wikipedians. I am the persistent editor to the Bob Kane page who dares to call himself "The Batmaniac".Mainly, the Caped Crusader has been a part of my life since I was 2 years old. In fact, I am old enough to have seen the Adam West show when it was in its original run. While that does not qualify me to be the defintive Bat-Expert (I defer to Joe Desris) I do know a little. I admit to being a Bob Kane fan but I am equally a fan of Bill Finger so there is no bias on my part. I am only interested in truth and fairness, not in perpetuating fatuous distortions. I am also a huge fan of independent comics and support creator rights; while holding a particular antipathy for the "assembly line" system that has evolved in American comics but is rare in Europe and Japan. Having said that let me summarize our dilema. For years, after successfully negotiating partial ownership for his character, "The Batman", with exceptions,Kane generally stayed away from the comics industry and fandom at large. During that time, so-called "experts" began crediting Kane's success exclusively to his staff while demonizing Mr. Kane. While this in no way diminishes their contributions (expecially those of the incomparable Mr. Bill Finger) it just points out how we fans have been MISLED and USED. We must remember two things: 1. Bob Kane never promised Mr.Finger co-ownership or a byline interest in his comic strip. In fact, Mr.Finger was free to leave if he was ever unhappy-- which he did after two years. Mr. Finger never held anything against Mr.Kane, and as fans of Finger, we shouldn't either. Bill could have created his own character,without Kane, and brokered a similar deal as Kane's but for some reason, this did not happen. This was not Kane's fault and we shouldn't act as if it was. 2. Attacking Kane for obtaining control over Batman makes no sense,especially given the way this business is structured in America. A similar thing happened when IMAGE was formed a few years ago. Industry "professionals" attacked Mr.McFarlane and company for creating their own studios. Why? It was a clear example of the "oppressed" defending the "oppressor". (Frank Miller once commented on this strange phenomenon in the Comics Journal which can be read in his monograph). Let's stop demonizing Kane and stereotyping Mr.Finger as some "fingered" loser who couldn't stand up for himself. If anyone "fingered" Mr.Finger, it wasn't Bob Kane. -Rex Ferrell- |
Last edited at 18:45, 18 May 2007 (UTC). Substituted at 09:55, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
Hello Tenebrae. Like you saw, I have the book "Batman & Me", An Autobiography By Bob Kane With Tom Andrae from Eclipse Books, 1989. I will write to you in the exact words 2 paragraphs and the first portion of a third from the page 131:
- Eddy Duchin's romantic keyboard was also instrumental in influencing me to get married. I escorted my fiancée, Beverly, to the Starlight Roof of the Waldorf-Astoria to celebrate my birthday. I was quite friendly with Eddy and he played our favorite song, "All the Things You Are."
- I was mesmerized by the magic fingers of the Duchin melodies and the champagne, which motivated me to propose to my best girl. We were married in 1949. And so I have Mr. Duchin to thank for the years of married life which produced a lovely daughter, Deborah. Unfortunately, the marriage didn't last. C'est la vie.
- I came to Hollywood again in 1957, while I was getting a divorce. .....
*Tenebrae, I hope it could help you. Thanks. --
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talk) 02:14, 9 March 2017 (UTC)
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Putting aside Kane's creative bankruptcy, the intro is not very precise an misleading; in decades of publication there is no way a single man has created most of dc characters, change ot to " a great number" or something 37.159.122.155 ( talk) 18:21, 14 November 2022 (UTC)
Jim Steranko told a story on Twitter of an encounter that he had with Bob Kane at the San Diego Con, presumably in the early 1970s, which allegedly had witnesses. It would interesting to corroborate the story and include it here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.246.125.95 ( talk) 18:31, 19 December 2022 (UTC)
WTF? Bob Kane the thief didn’t even “co-create” Batman.
Wolfquack (
talk) 18:59, 4 October 2023 (UTC)