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A fact from Black veganism appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 July 2021 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that in the United States, Blacks are twice as likely as the general population to identify as vegan?
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Sirfugeefox (
article contribs).
worst effort, or one of the worst?
I feel like this article is a complete mess, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Hoping others will be interested.
—valereee (
talk) 19:19, 14 June 2021 (UTC)reply
This is a bit of disturbing article. Veganism is now a racial thing? The problem I see is that there is no academic or scholarly sources that mention "black veganism", I do not believe this actually exists. There is no such thing as black veganism, just like there is no Asian veganism, Latino veganism or white veganism, there is just veganism. We should not be racializing veganism on Wikipedia based on a few faddish newspaper articles. Veganism has nothing to do with politics and I cannot find any evidence that "black veganism" actually exists as a philosophy political or not. I also believe there is a false synth here. There are a few newspaper articles discussing afro Americans that happen to be vegans but this doesn't mean there is a movement of "black veganism".
Psychologist Guy (
talk) 23:45, 14 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I do feel like it's a thing. I'm not confident in/about how I've dealt with it.
—valereee (
talk) 00:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by
Cwmhiraeth (
talk) 06:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Created by
Valereee (
talk). Self-nominated at 23:12, 14 June 2021 (UTC).reply
ALT1: ... that Blacks are the fastest-growing demographic of vegans in the United States, with twice as many identifying as vegan as compared to the general population? Same source, "The fastest-growing vegan demographic is African Americans."
Comment: Apologies if this is nit-picky, but my understanding is that "African Americans" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "Black people in the United States". It might be good to ensure that the wording reflects the sources in that sense, both in the hooks and the article. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 20:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
ezlev, not at all. The sources in this article seem to use them interchangeably. Blacks is a bigger group than African-Americans, and since Black includes (for example) many people from Jamaica (which AA doesn't always), I think Black is probably correct here? Open to other arguments.
—valereee (
talk) 20:23, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I think you're right that Black is probably the correct/ideal term to use here, I just worry that it might not align with the meaning of the sources – for example, the Pew Research Center survey referenced in the source for ALT0 may really have been discussing African Americans in the sense of "Black American citizens" or something else that's semantically different from "Black people in the United States". That's why I'm not sure of the best course of action here. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 20:29, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Ezlev, sorry, how is Black Americans different from Black people in the US?
—valereee (
talk) 22:10, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
It's different because one can be in the US without being American. Again, nitpicky, and unfortunately the ambiguity lies in the sources themselves, which is why I suggested that it might be good to just use the same terminology they do although it's probably fine either way. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 22:28, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
So you're concerned the researchers were talking to a significant number of Blacks who were at the time in the US but weren't actually American citizens?
—valereee (
talk) 22:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't go so far as "concerned"... I was scrolling through the noms, saw what looked like a possible source–content inconsistency, figured I would point it out. Now that I've done that, I don't feel a need to keep discussing it unless you'd like to. You're probably right that the discrepancy wouldn't be significant. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 23:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Full review needed.
BlueMoonset (
talk) 02:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC
New enough and long enough. QPQ present. Has all the citations it needs, including on the hook fact (though I find the last paragraph in "History" has two redundant sentences back to back,
Valereee). The article content looks fine; there are a couple more redlinks than I'd normally see in a new DYK, but I suspect some of the topics might be notable if they have the sourcing (maybe not SupaNova Slom though). This is a great piece in terms of countering systemic bias, too.
Sammi Brie (she/her •
t •
c) 08:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Hey, @
KoA, no objections to the other removals, but the fact this isn't the BLP for Ko doesn't mean we don't mention someone who is being called a leader in the field?
—valereee (
talk) 19:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm mostly here checking in after seeing concerns brought up at
WP:FTN. The mention of Ko did come across as
WP:PUFFERY as part of the sort of name-dropping issue I was seeing across the article. There really aren't strong sources that warrant name-dropping people like that, and it's leading to a bit of a
WP:COATRACK issue across the article that makes it seem unfocused. I'm on fairly limited time for now, so I only tackled a few of things that jumped out to me right away in that regard. I know
Psychologist Guy was taking a look at the article too, so maybe they have other ideas.
KoA (
talk) 21:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)reply
That's okay, we can talk. How would you like to handle it?
—valereee (
talk) 21:46, 22 June 2021 (UTC)reply
KoA, as far as I know there are only two peer-reviewed papers in the animal rights literature that exclusively discuss "black veganism". I agree with the article that it might be seen as an "emerging" discipline. But as it stands currently this is very much fringe. In 5-10 years there will be more academic literature, discussion and responses on the subject from scholars. It might become its own little academic sub-field similar to
vegetarian ecofeminism but right now it is very early days. This has just mostly been blown up by certain media reports. I agree with another user who left a comment about black veganism on the Fringe noticeboard that there is a serious lack of
WP:SCHOLARSHIP currently on the subject. If this article was created in a couple of years time I think there would have been more academic sources to use but as stated right now not much exists on the topic.
Psychologist Guy (
talk) 15:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)reply
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Black Lives Matter, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
Black Lives Matter on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Black Lives MatterWikipedia:WikiProject Black Lives MatterTemplate:WikiProject Black Lives MatterBlack Lives Matter articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
food and
drink related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink articles
Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review
WP:Trivia and
WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this.
Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects,
select here.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject United States, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of topics relating to the
United States of America on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the ongoing discussions.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Veganism and Vegetarianism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of
veganism and
vegetarianism on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join
the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Veganism and VegetarianismWikipedia:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismTemplate:WikiProject Veganism and VegetarianismVeganism and Vegetarianism articles
A fact from Black veganism appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 July 2021 (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
Did you know... that in the United States, Blacks are twice as likely as the general population to identify as vegan?
This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 29 April 2022. Further details are available
on the course page. Student editor(s):
Sirfugeefox (
article contribs).
worst effort, or one of the worst?
I feel like this article is a complete mess, but I'm not sure how to fix it. Hoping others will be interested.
—valereee (
talk) 19:19, 14 June 2021 (UTC)reply
This is a bit of disturbing article. Veganism is now a racial thing? The problem I see is that there is no academic or scholarly sources that mention "black veganism", I do not believe this actually exists. There is no such thing as black veganism, just like there is no Asian veganism, Latino veganism or white veganism, there is just veganism. We should not be racializing veganism on Wikipedia based on a few faddish newspaper articles. Veganism has nothing to do with politics and I cannot find any evidence that "black veganism" actually exists as a philosophy political or not. I also believe there is a false synth here. There are a few newspaper articles discussing afro Americans that happen to be vegans but this doesn't mean there is a movement of "black veganism".
Psychologist Guy (
talk) 23:45, 14 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I do feel like it's a thing. I'm not confident in/about how I've dealt with it.
—valereee (
talk) 00:28, 15 June 2021 (UTC)reply
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as
this nomination's talk page,
the article's talk page or
Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was: promoted by
Cwmhiraeth (
talk) 06:27, 10 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Created by
Valereee (
talk). Self-nominated at 23:12, 14 June 2021 (UTC).reply
ALT1: ... that Blacks are the fastest-growing demographic of vegans in the United States, with twice as many identifying as vegan as compared to the general population? Same source, "The fastest-growing vegan demographic is African Americans."
Comment: Apologies if this is nit-picky, but my understanding is that "African Americans" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "Black people in the United States". It might be good to ensure that the wording reflects the sources in that sense, both in the hooks and the article. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 20:01, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
ezlev, not at all. The sources in this article seem to use them interchangeably. Blacks is a bigger group than African-Americans, and since Black includes (for example) many people from Jamaica (which AA doesn't always), I think Black is probably correct here? Open to other arguments.
—valereee (
talk) 20:23, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I think you're right that Black is probably the correct/ideal term to use here, I just worry that it might not align with the meaning of the sources – for example, the Pew Research Center survey referenced in the source for ALT0 may really have been discussing African Americans in the sense of "Black American citizens" or something else that's semantically different from "Black people in the United States". That's why I'm not sure of the best course of action here. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 20:29, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Ezlev, sorry, how is Black Americans different from Black people in the US?
—valereee (
talk) 22:10, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
It's different because one can be in the US without being American. Again, nitpicky, and unfortunately the ambiguity lies in the sources themselves, which is why I suggested that it might be good to just use the same terminology they do although it's probably fine either way. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 22:28, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
So you're concerned the researchers were talking to a significant number of Blacks who were at the time in the US but weren't actually American citizens?
—valereee (
talk) 22:47, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I wouldn't go so far as "concerned"... I was scrolling through the noms, saw what looked like a possible source–content inconsistency, figured I would point it out. Now that I've done that, I don't feel a need to keep discussing it unless you'd like to. You're probably right that the discrepancy wouldn't be significant. ezlev (
user/
tlk/
ctrbs) 23:05, 16 June 2021 (UTC)reply
Full review needed.
BlueMoonset (
talk) 02:12, 5 July 2021 (UTC
New enough and long enough. QPQ present. Has all the citations it needs, including on the hook fact (though I find the last paragraph in "History" has two redundant sentences back to back,
Valereee). The article content looks fine; there are a couple more redlinks than I'd normally see in a new DYK, but I suspect some of the topics might be notable if they have the sourcing (maybe not SupaNova Slom though). This is a great piece in terms of countering systemic bias, too.
Sammi Brie (she/her •
t •
c) 08:19, 9 July 2021 (UTC)reply
Hey, @
KoA, no objections to the other removals, but the fact this isn't the BLP for Ko doesn't mean we don't mention someone who is being called a leader in the field?
—valereee (
talk) 19:40, 22 June 2021 (UTC)reply
I'm mostly here checking in after seeing concerns brought up at
WP:FTN. The mention of Ko did come across as
WP:PUFFERY as part of the sort of name-dropping issue I was seeing across the article. There really aren't strong sources that warrant name-dropping people like that, and it's leading to a bit of a
WP:COATRACK issue across the article that makes it seem unfocused. I'm on fairly limited time for now, so I only tackled a few of things that jumped out to me right away in that regard. I know
Psychologist Guy was taking a look at the article too, so maybe they have other ideas.
KoA (
talk) 21:39, 22 June 2021 (UTC)reply
That's okay, we can talk. How would you like to handle it?
—valereee (
talk) 21:46, 22 June 2021 (UTC)reply
KoA, as far as I know there are only two peer-reviewed papers in the animal rights literature that exclusively discuss "black veganism". I agree with the article that it might be seen as an "emerging" discipline. But as it stands currently this is very much fringe. In 5-10 years there will be more academic literature, discussion and responses on the subject from scholars. It might become its own little academic sub-field similar to
vegetarian ecofeminism but right now it is very early days. This has just mostly been blown up by certain media reports. I agree with another user who left a comment about black veganism on the Fringe noticeboard that there is a serious lack of
WP:SCHOLARSHIP currently on the subject. If this article was created in a couple of years time I think there would have been more academic sources to use but as stated right now not much exists on the topic.
Psychologist Guy (
talk) 15:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)reply