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Made a number of changes to the article. It was poorly written and contains a number of ambiguities. I have added tags to those areas where vagueness is leaving readers uninformed. I hope to get to looking further into the references and finding the answers to the ambiguousness, if anyone else wants to try and fix it first, have at it. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 05:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
She was the first and, to date, only Jewish Miss America. Her attaining that title shortly after the end of the Second World War, with the memory of the Holocaust still fresh, was a seminal event for American Jews as an affirmation of the community's acceptance by U.S. society.[1]
... was watered down to read as follows:
At the time of her death, Myerson was the only Jewish Miss America. With World War II just ending and details regarding the atrocities committed against the Jewish people during the Holocaust finally being fully disclosed, Myerson winning the title was seen as a remarkable achievement.[1]
That was sourced to the Times obit [1], which said as follows:
"To many Jews, often blamed for the war by anti-Semites, newly traumatized by images of the liberated Nazi death camps and often confronted by that anti-Semitism in their everyday lives, the title seemed an affirmation of some sort of acceptance in America. 'In the Jewish community, she was the most famous pretty girl since Queen Esther,' Susan Dworkin wrote in 'Miss America, 1945: Bess Myerson’s Own Story,' published in 1987."
This paragraph:
While competing in the Miss America pageant as Miss New York 1945,[1] she refused, despite entreaties, to use a pseudonym that "sounded less Jewish."[5][6] She faced anti-semitism after winning the Miss America title on September 8, 1945, "including the withdrawal of three of the annual beauty pageant’s five sponsors from the arrangement by which the queen would represent the company during her year-long reign."[2][5][6] She later campaigned for civil rights, in particular, working with the Anti-Defamation League.[5]
.. you changed to
While competing as Miss New York in the 1945 Miss America pageant,[1] she had been asked to use a pseudonym that "sounded less Jewish." Myerson refused.[3][6] As a result, controversy arose after she won the title on September 8, 1945, when three of the pageant's five sponsors withdrew from having her represent their companies as Miss America.[2][3][6] Myerson later became a supporter and activist for civil rights, including working with the Anti-Defamation League.[3
All of the material that you removed, without explanation or discussion, is amply supported by the sources, including the New York Times front-page obituary, the LA Times obit, the websites sited and the Dworkin biography, which I have and am starting to utilize to incorporate into the article. I have added a source to the second paragraph and will continue to beef up the "Miss America" section of her biography, which was the subject of the authoritative Dworkin book.
Rather than reverting and removing en masse I would encourage you to discuss any such significant prospective text removals here in talk, rather than slashing away and then posting the vague note that you did above. Coretheapple ( talk) 20:19, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Two editors using an article talkpage during the early morning hours and not waiting for other article editors to weigh in is not consensus building. What you added was essentially an echo of what already existed, creating a ridiculous redundancy. For that reason, and because there was no true consensus, is why it was taken out. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The article is becoming over-run with quotes an starting to not just look like a WP:QUOTEFARM but an online WP:MEMORIAL. The concentration camp survivors quote is really over-the-top and not necessary. It should go, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
In the newly expanded Miss America section, the content, "Myerson encountered "No Jews" signs when touring the country as Miss America" needs to be more specific. Where were the signs seen? Were they KKK-related? Were the signs seen in areas of the South? Was it truly because she was Miss America? Was it because they were placed purposely for her benefit? "No Jews" signs mean nothing in relation to this article if they weren't directly connected to her. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
It seems that you are not going to be choosing the right road and stopping your rude and personal-attack comments anytime soon. Okay. We all make choices. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Alan, "may be true" is simply not encyclopedic language. There has to be a better, more encyclopedic way of saying it, regardless of how many versions of the story exist. We are supposed to be including facts, not suppositions, no matter what reliable source presents those suppositions. It's okay to say that varying versions exist, it's even okay to say that certain individuals think either version may be true, it's not okay to present them in such a manner that it appears editors are making a judgement about the varying accounts. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 22:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
"May be true" isn't going to cut it. The language will have to be changed. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I've added a paragraph of material from the biography and retained the "piano" story. Both mesh fine. Coretheapple ( talk) 16:22, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Core, when reverting my wording change, you said in your edit summary, "this quote is from her authorized biography, the Dworkin book, just saying "said" is sufficient". It's not sufficient when the source you state contains the quote isn't being used as a reference to support the quote. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
On another subject, I see that you used the revert tool to remove a sourced reference to Myerson acting as host of the pageant for 14 years that was added by another editor. You have got to stop this hair-trigger reversion of sourced facts that are, in this case, true. Your edit summary says that Burt Parks was host. I'm old enough to remember that Burt Parks was host of the pageant itself, while Myerson was host of the broadcast, sitting in a booth at the rear of the auditorium. I clarified, but the fact is that the original language was correct as well, and was sourced. In the future, when you see something that is added, is sourced, reflects the source correctly but you feel is incorrect, please show some respect to your fellow editors and take it to talk, rather than using the revert tool to remove it entirely. Coretheapple ( talk) 16:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
New York magazine had a cover story in 1987 by Patricia Morrisroe on the "Bess Mess." [3] I've added it to the "further reading" section but it would be useful as a source, in which case I presume it would have to be removed from that section. Coretheapple ( talk) 14:54, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
This [4] says she was a founder of the museum in NYC. Seems like something about it might belong in the article somewhere. It's the only thing left that I saw that might be worth adding - but I'll leave it to others to follow-up. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 18:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of what the attached reference states, I am finding nothing online that says Myerson was the televised pageant host. It's common knowledge that Bert Parks was the long-time iconic television host of the Miss America Pageant from the 1950s through 1979. The argument for adding the content back in is that there was a difference between the television broadcast and the pageant itself. Really? If so, why is Parks noted all over the internet as being the television host of the pageant from 1955 on and nothing is said about Myerson hosting except in the NYT obituary? Look at the following links... At PBS.com: "Bert Parks virtually became an American icon as the host of the annual Miss America Pageant from its second telecast in 1955 until 1980" [5]; at missamerica.org: [6] Each are reliable sources. One is the actual Miss America website. Does the article at the MA website say one word about Myerson hosting the show? If it were true, you would think that site most certainly would, yet, nothing is said about it. In fact, 1959 Miss America Mary Ann Mobley's page at the MA website states clearly that she was a co-host on the televised pageant in 1989.
The PBS website regarding its documentary on the Miss America Pageant does state for 1954 (the first year of the televised broadcast), "Grace Kelly is a judge and Bess Myerson reports from backstage". Backstage reporting is not the same as the host (Bob Russell was the host that year). There is nothing more at that website about Myerson on TV with the pageant [7]. Even the press release on Myerson's death at the MA website says nothing about Myerson hosting the television broadcast of the pageant ( [8]).
The content as it stands is dubious. And, truly, if you think about the times, how often were there female televison hosts of anything in the 1950s and into the mid-1960s? It was very rare in the 1960s, relatively unheard of in the 1950s. I can see her possibly being a co-hostess. But the only host of the storied television broadcast? No. Bert Parks was the recognized "flagship" TV host of the pageant. Myerson may have been on the show as a backstage commentator (as the PBS website states), but she wasn't the host for the broadcast, regardless of what the NYT obituary says.
And don't confuse pageant emcee with television broadcast host (as Core seems to have done in the revert edit summary). Parks wasn't the pageant emcee, he was the television broadcast host from the 1950s-1979. Everything you find online at reliable source after reliable source states as much.
Oh, and one more thing: interestingly, the Miss America webpage for Bess Myerson has content that identically matches and almost identically matches what's in the Myerson article here. I don't know when it was put in or who did it, but obviously, it will have reworded here considerably when the article is unlocked. Can't have any more copyvios and verbatim lifts of content from online sources than we already do have had, eh? --
WV ●
✉
✓ 02:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Myerson's hosting is well sourced. "Host" in this context does not mean a singular or the most important individual. For example (in the US at least) a restaurant may have multiple individuals performing the "host" job function. NE Ent 19:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Prior draft Per discussion immediately above, please change
She was host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1967, and then was replaced by a younger woman.<ref name="LA Times obituary"/>
to
Along with [[Bert Parks]], Myerson was a host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1968 until she was replaced by [[Deborah Bryant|Debbie Bryant]]<ref>Dworkin, p. 220.</ref> NE Ent 22:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC) updated NE Ent 01:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC), NE Ent 02:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
May I interject one point? It is true that she was replaced by a younger woman, Debbie Bryant according to this source. However, she was at the time leaving to join the New York City government, and there is an implication of "ageism" that may not be warranted. Can we replace "a younger woman" with " Debbie Bryant"? Coretheapple ( talk) 22:15, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
How about simply "Myerson was a host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1968."? NE Ent 02:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Per discussion immediately above, please change
She was host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1967, and then was replaced by a younger woman.<ref name="LA Times obituary"/>
to
Myerson was a host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1968<ref>Dworkin, p. 220.</ref> NE Ent 03:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
User:Winkelvi would like to remove the reference to Myerson being host of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1967, even though it is made in two reliable sources, on the grounds that it is "dubious" for the reasons stated in the post by Winelvi immediately above.
In addition, he contends that there is a copyright violation. The latter is potentially serious. I don't happen to agree with him on either of these two issues, but I think we have to get them cleared up. We don't want dubious things in a highly trafficked article like this, and neither do we want copyright violations, if there are any. Therefore I request that an administrator review these two claims, and act upon them if warranted. I'm not quite sure what Winkelvi is talking about when he refers to copyright violations, so perhaps he can elaborate. That can't wait a week to resolve, if indeed there is anything to resolve. Coretheapple ( talk) 03:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
By the way, I just read the contents of the protected-edit notice- my apologies for not doing so previously - and noticed that it says that this template is only for noncontroversial requests, and only after consensus is reached. Nevertheless, I'd request that an administrator review the claims made by Winkelvi above and take appropriate action. I do feel that if there is a copyright violation it needs to be dealt with as soon as possible, and I think we can use a third opinion on the "host" ciaim that he feels is dubious. Coretheapple ( talk) 03:16, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Just ran a source to check for myself on the controversy. The following are articles which would seem to suggest she was a host of the Miss America pageant. For me it seems a pretty authoritative claim given the New York Times reference:
"She was also a consumer consultant to Bristol-Myers and Citibank and made frequent appearances on radio and television, hosting Miss America contests and the Tournament of Roses and the Thanksgiving Day parades."
Other articles mentioning she hosted Miss America contests:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sally-greenberg/bess-myerson-beauty-queen_b_6437080.html
http://pageantcenter.com/pageant%20results/Miss_America_Pageant/1945_miss_america_pageant.html
I also found some 1970s newspaper articles mentioning she was co-hosting Miss America pageants:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1906&dat=19690502&id=WNQfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KtkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3863,90175 http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/8466433/ http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/25851048/ http://newspaperarchive.com/us/wisconsin/madison/madison-capital-times/1970/03-23/page-10 http://newspaperarchive.com/us/ohio/sandusky/sandusky-register/1970/03-24/page-2
Seems pretty straightforward to me though. -- 7157.118.25a ( talk) 22:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
@Winkelvi: One other thing of far more importance. In your post at 02:30, 9 January 2015 you indicated that there were copyright violations. You said at the bottom of that post: "Oh, and one more thing: interestingly, the Miss America webpage for Bess Myerson has content that identically matches and almost identically matches what's in the Myerson article here. I don't know when it was put in or who did it, but obviously, it will have reworded here considerably when the article is unlocked. Can't have any more copyvios and verbatim lifts of content from online sources than we already do, eh?" This is very serious. It needs to be addressed, if in fact what you say is correct. Can you please explain what those copyright violations are, so that we can formulate an edit request and get them fixed? What is the webpage and what language was duplicated? Also you imply that there are other copyright issues that would also need to be addressed if they exist. What are these other issues? We need to fix them, assuming they are in fact copyright problems or plagiarism, which is a very serious charge that I assume you are making in good faith. Coretheapple ( talk) 19:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Note: Since he hasn't addressed the subject here despite repeated requests, I raised User:Winkelvi's plagiarism allegations with him on his user talk page. His response was that he declined to "comment" as he put it [14], and then he deleted my question and his response [15], saying in an edit summary that he's "not commenting further until I get some advice from editors i trust." So that's where that's at. Coretheapple ( talk) 21:50, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
The phrase I'm referring to is found here [17] "Recognized for her wit and hard work, as well as her beauty" in comparison to a much too similar phrase at the Miss America website, "Known for her beauty and her quick wit", found here [18]. It's much to close of a paraphrase and, in my opinion, is in copyvio territory. This, and other too-close paraphrases I've found since I started editing this article are troubling, to say the least. I can say without a doubt as well as a clear conscience that none of them have come from any of the edits I've made to this article. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I have read through the discussions above and am still not entirely clear as to why this page has been locked down to all editing. I did read the discussion of plagiarism but am not certain what it refers to. There are a number of interesting articles coming out on this topic and it would be nice to add them. Bess Myerson is an important figure in American history and culture and her article should be accessible to all editors for editing as she just passed away.
Just as a note - part of the reason Myerson became so well known is because she faced anti-Semitism as Miss America 1945 - this really isn't a subject of debate but a matter of fact. As an aside, there is a very good 1947 film on the subject of anti-Semitism in the United States of the 1940s called Gentleman's Agreement which describes the kind of environment she found herself in when she won the title. I am not offering this sidenote as material for this article but for a wider discussion of the topic. I am somewhat busy in real life but I will try to revisit this discussion every once and awhile.- Classicfilms ( talk) 03:25, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
From what I'm reading in this section, it appears there is a huge misunderstanding regarding my questioning of the antisemitism content a couple of days ago. I never felt it shouldn't be included in the article. I felt it shouldn't be in the article until it was better sourced. Policy is clear on how well sourced BLP articles should be. As the antisemitism claims read when I started editing the article, there was clear implication that the sponsors pulling out backing Myerson as Miss America did so because they were anti-Semites. There was no reference supporting such an implication. That was my concern, not that the antisemitism-related content existed. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
There are now numerous obituaries that are some of the best WP:RS online sources we can look to:
And I should add - just as a point of clarification - a WP:BLP is a "Biography of Living Persons" article. As Ms. Myerson has passed away, this article is no longer a BLP. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be well sourced, but it isn't a BLP it is now a Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography. I have given a few online sources that fulfill WP:RS and I'm sure that if we can get the article open again, there are other editors out there who will have plenty of hard copy. So my goal really is not to debate topics that are simply well established facts (please read my posts above) - but to document what we already know. Perhaps the easiest way will be to simply quote from the sources and therefore there shouldn't be a problem.
As I wrote above, I am somewhat pressed for time in RL so I won't be editing anymore tonight. However, I will leave this discussion open to the rest of the editors who are interested in the article. - Classicfilms ( talk) 03:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Not claiming it's an unreliable source. I'm merely pointing out that it's been noted by reliable sources as being biased. A truth which flies in the face of recent claims that the book is the definitive source on Myerson. Definitive sources are typically objective rather than subjective. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I would second the request to reopen this page to editing. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 17:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
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Most Americans may have viewed the country as Protestant, but “America” didn’t view anything because people view, not nations.
She had a career in government. Whether government is “public service” is opinion. Nicmart ( talk) 13:00, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Agree. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 14:30, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
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Made a number of changes to the article. It was poorly written and contains a number of ambiguities. I have added tags to those areas where vagueness is leaving readers uninformed. I hope to get to looking further into the references and finding the answers to the ambiguousness, if anyone else wants to try and fix it first, have at it. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 05:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
She was the first and, to date, only Jewish Miss America. Her attaining that title shortly after the end of the Second World War, with the memory of the Holocaust still fresh, was a seminal event for American Jews as an affirmation of the community's acceptance by U.S. society.[1]
... was watered down to read as follows:
At the time of her death, Myerson was the only Jewish Miss America. With World War II just ending and details regarding the atrocities committed against the Jewish people during the Holocaust finally being fully disclosed, Myerson winning the title was seen as a remarkable achievement.[1]
That was sourced to the Times obit [1], which said as follows:
"To many Jews, often blamed for the war by anti-Semites, newly traumatized by images of the liberated Nazi death camps and often confronted by that anti-Semitism in their everyday lives, the title seemed an affirmation of some sort of acceptance in America. 'In the Jewish community, she was the most famous pretty girl since Queen Esther,' Susan Dworkin wrote in 'Miss America, 1945: Bess Myerson’s Own Story,' published in 1987."
This paragraph:
While competing in the Miss America pageant as Miss New York 1945,[1] she refused, despite entreaties, to use a pseudonym that "sounded less Jewish."[5][6] She faced anti-semitism after winning the Miss America title on September 8, 1945, "including the withdrawal of three of the annual beauty pageant’s five sponsors from the arrangement by which the queen would represent the company during her year-long reign."[2][5][6] She later campaigned for civil rights, in particular, working with the Anti-Defamation League.[5]
.. you changed to
While competing as Miss New York in the 1945 Miss America pageant,[1] she had been asked to use a pseudonym that "sounded less Jewish." Myerson refused.[3][6] As a result, controversy arose after she won the title on September 8, 1945, when three of the pageant's five sponsors withdrew from having her represent their companies as Miss America.[2][3][6] Myerson later became a supporter and activist for civil rights, including working with the Anti-Defamation League.[3
All of the material that you removed, without explanation or discussion, is amply supported by the sources, including the New York Times front-page obituary, the LA Times obit, the websites sited and the Dworkin biography, which I have and am starting to utilize to incorporate into the article. I have added a source to the second paragraph and will continue to beef up the "Miss America" section of her biography, which was the subject of the authoritative Dworkin book.
Rather than reverting and removing en masse I would encourage you to discuss any such significant prospective text removals here in talk, rather than slashing away and then posting the vague note that you did above. Coretheapple ( talk) 20:19, 6 January 2015 (UTC)
Two editors using an article talkpage during the early morning hours and not waiting for other article editors to weigh in is not consensus building. What you added was essentially an echo of what already existed, creating a ridiculous redundancy. For that reason, and because there was no true consensus, is why it was taken out. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:04, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
The article is becoming over-run with quotes an starting to not just look like a WP:QUOTEFARM but an online WP:MEMORIAL. The concentration camp survivors quote is really over-the-top and not necessary. It should go, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 03:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
In the newly expanded Miss America section, the content, "Myerson encountered "No Jews" signs when touring the country as Miss America" needs to be more specific. Where were the signs seen? Were they KKK-related? Were the signs seen in areas of the South? Was it truly because she was Miss America? Was it because they were placed purposely for her benefit? "No Jews" signs mean nothing in relation to this article if they weren't directly connected to her. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 17:32, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
It seems that you are not going to be choosing the right road and stopping your rude and personal-attack comments anytime soon. Okay. We all make choices. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:29, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Alan, "may be true" is simply not encyclopedic language. There has to be a better, more encyclopedic way of saying it, regardless of how many versions of the story exist. We are supposed to be including facts, not suppositions, no matter what reliable source presents those suppositions. It's okay to say that varying versions exist, it's even okay to say that certain individuals think either version may be true, it's not okay to present them in such a manner that it appears editors are making a judgement about the varying accounts. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 22:37, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
"May be true" isn't going to cut it. The language will have to be changed. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 23:38, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
I've added a paragraph of material from the biography and retained the "piano" story. Both mesh fine. Coretheapple ( talk) 16:22, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Core, when reverting my wording change, you said in your edit summary, "this quote is from her authorized biography, the Dworkin book, just saying "said" is sufficient". It's not sufficient when the source you state contains the quote isn't being used as a reference to support the quote. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 00:10, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
On another subject, I see that you used the revert tool to remove a sourced reference to Myerson acting as host of the pageant for 14 years that was added by another editor. You have got to stop this hair-trigger reversion of sourced facts that are, in this case, true. Your edit summary says that Burt Parks was host. I'm old enough to remember that Burt Parks was host of the pageant itself, while Myerson was host of the broadcast, sitting in a booth at the rear of the auditorium. I clarified, but the fact is that the original language was correct as well, and was sourced. In the future, when you see something that is added, is sourced, reflects the source correctly but you feel is incorrect, please show some respect to your fellow editors and take it to talk, rather than using the revert tool to remove it entirely. Coretheapple ( talk) 16:38, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
New York magazine had a cover story in 1987 by Patricia Morrisroe on the "Bess Mess." [3] I've added it to the "further reading" section but it would be useful as a source, in which case I presume it would have to be removed from that section. Coretheapple ( talk) 14:54, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
This [4] says she was a founder of the museum in NYC. Seems like something about it might belong in the article somewhere. It's the only thing left that I saw that might be worth adding - but I'll leave it to others to follow-up. Alanscottwalker ( talk) 18:35, 8 January 2015 (UTC)
Regardless of what the attached reference states, I am finding nothing online that says Myerson was the televised pageant host. It's common knowledge that Bert Parks was the long-time iconic television host of the Miss America Pageant from the 1950s through 1979. The argument for adding the content back in is that there was a difference between the television broadcast and the pageant itself. Really? If so, why is Parks noted all over the internet as being the television host of the pageant from 1955 on and nothing is said about Myerson hosting except in the NYT obituary? Look at the following links... At PBS.com: "Bert Parks virtually became an American icon as the host of the annual Miss America Pageant from its second telecast in 1955 until 1980" [5]; at missamerica.org: [6] Each are reliable sources. One is the actual Miss America website. Does the article at the MA website say one word about Myerson hosting the show? If it were true, you would think that site most certainly would, yet, nothing is said about it. In fact, 1959 Miss America Mary Ann Mobley's page at the MA website states clearly that she was a co-host on the televised pageant in 1989.
The PBS website regarding its documentary on the Miss America Pageant does state for 1954 (the first year of the televised broadcast), "Grace Kelly is a judge and Bess Myerson reports from backstage". Backstage reporting is not the same as the host (Bob Russell was the host that year). There is nothing more at that website about Myerson on TV with the pageant [7]. Even the press release on Myerson's death at the MA website says nothing about Myerson hosting the television broadcast of the pageant ( [8]).
The content as it stands is dubious. And, truly, if you think about the times, how often were there female televison hosts of anything in the 1950s and into the mid-1960s? It was very rare in the 1960s, relatively unheard of in the 1950s. I can see her possibly being a co-hostess. But the only host of the storied television broadcast? No. Bert Parks was the recognized "flagship" TV host of the pageant. Myerson may have been on the show as a backstage commentator (as the PBS website states), but she wasn't the host for the broadcast, regardless of what the NYT obituary says.
And don't confuse pageant emcee with television broadcast host (as Core seems to have done in the revert edit summary). Parks wasn't the pageant emcee, he was the television broadcast host from the 1950s-1979. Everything you find online at reliable source after reliable source states as much.
Oh, and one more thing: interestingly, the Miss America webpage for Bess Myerson has content that identically matches and almost identically matches what's in the Myerson article here. I don't know when it was put in or who did it, but obviously, it will have reworded here considerably when the article is unlocked. Can't have any more copyvios and verbatim lifts of content from online sources than we already do have had, eh? --
WV ●
✉
✓ 02:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Myerson's hosting is well sourced. "Host" in this context does not mean a singular or the most important individual. For example (in the US at least) a restaurant may have multiple individuals performing the "host" job function. NE Ent 19:11, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Prior draft Per discussion immediately above, please change
She was host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1967, and then was replaced by a younger woman.<ref name="LA Times obituary"/>
to
Along with [[Bert Parks]], Myerson was a host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1968 until she was replaced by [[Deborah Bryant|Debbie Bryant]]<ref>Dworkin, p. 220.</ref> NE Ent 22:06, 11 January 2015 (UTC) updated NE Ent 01:58, 12 January 2015 (UTC), NE Ent 02:22, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
May I interject one point? It is true that she was replaced by a younger woman, Debbie Bryant according to this source. However, she was at the time leaving to join the New York City government, and there is an implication of "ageism" that may not be warranted. Can we replace "a younger woman" with " Debbie Bryant"? Coretheapple ( talk) 22:15, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
How about simply "Myerson was a host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1968."? NE Ent 02:47, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
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Per discussion immediately above, please change
She was host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1967, and then was replaced by a younger woman.<ref name="LA Times obituary"/>
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Myerson was a host of the television broadcast of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1968<ref>Dworkin, p. 220.</ref> NE Ent 03:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
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User:Winkelvi would like to remove the reference to Myerson being host of the Miss America pageant from 1954 to 1967, even though it is made in two reliable sources, on the grounds that it is "dubious" for the reasons stated in the post by Winelvi immediately above.
In addition, he contends that there is a copyright violation. The latter is potentially serious. I don't happen to agree with him on either of these two issues, but I think we have to get them cleared up. We don't want dubious things in a highly trafficked article like this, and neither do we want copyright violations, if there are any. Therefore I request that an administrator review these two claims, and act upon them if warranted. I'm not quite sure what Winkelvi is talking about when he refers to copyright violations, so perhaps he can elaborate. That can't wait a week to resolve, if indeed there is anything to resolve. Coretheapple ( talk) 03:00, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
By the way, I just read the contents of the protected-edit notice- my apologies for not doing so previously - and noticed that it says that this template is only for noncontroversial requests, and only after consensus is reached. Nevertheless, I'd request that an administrator review the claims made by Winkelvi above and take appropriate action. I do feel that if there is a copyright violation it needs to be dealt with as soon as possible, and I think we can use a third opinion on the "host" ciaim that he feels is dubious. Coretheapple ( talk) 03:16, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Just ran a source to check for myself on the controversy. The following are articles which would seem to suggest she was a host of the Miss America pageant. For me it seems a pretty authoritative claim given the New York Times reference:
"She was also a consumer consultant to Bristol-Myers and Citibank and made frequent appearances on radio and television, hosting Miss America contests and the Tournament of Roses and the Thanksgiving Day parades."
Other articles mentioning she hosted Miss America contests:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sally-greenberg/bess-myerson-beauty-queen_b_6437080.html
http://pageantcenter.com/pageant%20results/Miss_America_Pageant/1945_miss_america_pageant.html
I also found some 1970s newspaper articles mentioning she was co-hosting Miss America pageants:
http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1906&dat=19690502&id=WNQfAAAAIBAJ&sjid=KtkEAAAAIBAJ&pg=3863,90175 http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/8466433/ http://www.newspapers.com/newspage/25851048/ http://newspaperarchive.com/us/wisconsin/madison/madison-capital-times/1970/03-23/page-10 http://newspaperarchive.com/us/ohio/sandusky/sandusky-register/1970/03-24/page-2
Seems pretty straightforward to me though. -- 7157.118.25a ( talk) 22:36, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
@Winkelvi: One other thing of far more importance. In your post at 02:30, 9 January 2015 you indicated that there were copyright violations. You said at the bottom of that post: "Oh, and one more thing: interestingly, the Miss America webpage for Bess Myerson has content that identically matches and almost identically matches what's in the Myerson article here. I don't know when it was put in or who did it, but obviously, it will have reworded here considerably when the article is unlocked. Can't have any more copyvios and verbatim lifts of content from online sources than we already do, eh?" This is very serious. It needs to be addressed, if in fact what you say is correct. Can you please explain what those copyright violations are, so that we can formulate an edit request and get them fixed? What is the webpage and what language was duplicated? Also you imply that there are other copyright issues that would also need to be addressed if they exist. What are these other issues? We need to fix them, assuming they are in fact copyright problems or plagiarism, which is a very serious charge that I assume you are making in good faith. Coretheapple ( talk) 19:33, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
Note: Since he hasn't addressed the subject here despite repeated requests, I raised User:Winkelvi's plagiarism allegations with him on his user talk page. His response was that he declined to "comment" as he put it [14], and then he deleted my question and his response [15], saying in an edit summary that he's "not commenting further until I get some advice from editors i trust." So that's where that's at. Coretheapple ( talk) 21:50, 9 January 2015 (UTC)
The phrase I'm referring to is found here [17] "Recognized for her wit and hard work, as well as her beauty" in comparison to a much too similar phrase at the Miss America website, "Known for her beauty and her quick wit", found here [18]. It's much to close of a paraphrase and, in my opinion, is in copyvio territory. This, and other too-close paraphrases I've found since I started editing this article are troubling, to say the least. I can say without a doubt as well as a clear conscience that none of them have come from any of the edits I've made to this article. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:02, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I have read through the discussions above and am still not entirely clear as to why this page has been locked down to all editing. I did read the discussion of plagiarism but am not certain what it refers to. There are a number of interesting articles coming out on this topic and it would be nice to add them. Bess Myerson is an important figure in American history and culture and her article should be accessible to all editors for editing as she just passed away.
Just as a note - part of the reason Myerson became so well known is because she faced anti-Semitism as Miss America 1945 - this really isn't a subject of debate but a matter of fact. As an aside, there is a very good 1947 film on the subject of anti-Semitism in the United States of the 1940s called Gentleman's Agreement which describes the kind of environment she found herself in when she won the title. I am not offering this sidenote as material for this article but for a wider discussion of the topic. I am somewhat busy in real life but I will try to revisit this discussion every once and awhile.- Classicfilms ( talk) 03:25, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
From what I'm reading in this section, it appears there is a huge misunderstanding regarding my questioning of the antisemitism content a couple of days ago. I never felt it shouldn't be included in the article. I felt it shouldn't be in the article until it was better sourced. Policy is clear on how well sourced BLP articles should be. As the antisemitism claims read when I started editing the article, there was clear implication that the sponsors pulling out backing Myerson as Miss America did so because they were anti-Semites. There was no reference supporting such an implication. That was my concern, not that the antisemitism-related content existed. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:37, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
There are now numerous obituaries that are some of the best WP:RS online sources we can look to:
And I should add - just as a point of clarification - a WP:BLP is a "Biography of Living Persons" article. As Ms. Myerson has passed away, this article is no longer a BLP. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be well sourced, but it isn't a BLP it is now a Wikipedia:WikiProject Biography. I have given a few online sources that fulfill WP:RS and I'm sure that if we can get the article open again, there are other editors out there who will have plenty of hard copy. So my goal really is not to debate topics that are simply well established facts (please read my posts above) - but to document what we already know. Perhaps the easiest way will be to simply quote from the sources and therefore there shouldn't be a problem.
As I wrote above, I am somewhat pressed for time in RL so I won't be editing anymore tonight. However, I will leave this discussion open to the rest of the editors who are interested in the article. - Classicfilms ( talk) 03:42, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Not claiming it's an unreliable source. I'm merely pointing out that it's been noted by reliable sources as being biased. A truth which flies in the face of recent claims that the book is the definitive source on Myerson. Definitive sources are typically objective rather than subjective. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 18:53, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
I would second the request to reopen this page to editing. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 17:05, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
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Most Americans may have viewed the country as Protestant, but “America” didn’t view anything because people view, not nations.
She had a career in government. Whether government is “public service” is opinion. Nicmart ( talk) 13:00, 27 February 2021 (UTC)
Agree. Figureofnine ( talk • contribs) 14:30, 27 February 2021 (UTC)