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There is no debate. The U.S. retreated. It's that simple.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.182.191.188 ( talk) 16:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Okay either the map is wrong or the write up is wrong. 31RCT was on the east side of the reservoir, strung out from Hudong to the north. Yet the section makes several references to them being in sinhung. Other maps reference sinhung in the same place, and in many readings about this battle I have never heard of any 31RCT elements on the west side of the reservoir. The article also contains several conflicting, (indeed physically impossible) statements such as being north of hudong yet south of sinhung. It also says hill 1221 commands the road between those two towns and yet it is clearly north of hudong. I am going to make some changes to clear this up over the next few days as anyone reading this section would probably become quickly confused. Outcast95 ( talk) 06:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
There are many places called "Sinhung" in that part of Korea. I think that there's another one north of Hudong that is not shown in the battle map. GiuseppeFichera ( talk) 21:51, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Although Chinese troops managed to surround and outnumber the UN forces, the UN forces broke out of the encirclement while inflicting crippling losses to the Chinese. The evacuation of the X Corps from the port of Hungnam marked the complete withdraw of UN troops from North Korea.
There are two problems here: (1) in what sense were the Chinese losses "crippling"? Those losses were a small drop in China's manpower pool. Unless someone can produce evidence to justify this claim -for example by documenting that Chinese losses effected their subsequent operations in Korea- I'm editing this to reflect a NPOV; (2) this sentence goes to great lengths to avoid saying the obvious - that Chosin Reservoir was a DEFEAT for the US / UN. Lexington50 ( talk) 20:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Like so many of the American commercially published 'history books' that Jim101 references and the "official" US Marine Corps published history, most of which do not have a NPOV; they are written to glorify the Marine Corps. For instance, is it not written in at least one of the references that this battle was a "Campaign"? Then why is not on the list of Official US Navy Campaigns? Remember that the US Marine Corps is a part of the Department of the Navy within the US Department of Defense and is not entitled to have a separate list of campaigns. Accuracy is always in question and brighter people than I have written many half and total untruths and called it fact. If it is written and verifiable, it must be fact? Meyerj ( talk) 11:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
A comment on point (3) above. The following link is a Web Page from the Chinese government : " http://www.mod.gov.cn/big5/hist/2014-11/18/content_4559054.htm", they really didn't quite describe this battle as a "massive failure". JW19335762743 ( talk) 08:01, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
...The 9th Army casualty exceed 40,000 men, including 30,000 frostbite casualties, plus 1,000 men that were frozen to death. After the battle the entire unit was turned into a "huge hospital", and three months were spent on healing the frostbitten soldiers. This is, in our army's history, the worst lesson on frostbite...
The PVA 9th Army's combat operation is carried out in harsh conditions. During the battle, snow storm was non-stop and the average temperature was between -27 to -30 degrees Celsius. Soldiers were wearing thin clothing, suffering hunger and cold, lacking proper supplies, some units can only have one frozen meal per every two days, soldier's health was deteriorating rapidly, frostbite casualties was severe. During the battles at Sinhung-ni, the 27th Corps 80th Division 250th Regiment 5th Company was suppressed by enemy firepower, all units were frozen to death due to taking cover on the snow covered grounds. The severe winter weather also affected weapon use, causing 70% weapons not operational, large numbers of rifles and machine guns were frozen and unable to fire, communications were also adversely impacted.
The web site I cited belongs to the "Ministry Of National Defense Of The People's Republic Of China", not People's Daily. I have no idea why Jim101 mentioned People's Daily. Chinese official viewpoint, in my understanding, be it official propaganda or official history, does not view this battle as a failure, and they have very good reasons. JW19335762743 ( talk) 09:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
The web page I cited was " http://www.mod.gov.cn/big5/hist/2014-11/18/content_4559054.htm", am I talking about the same page with Jim101? I cited one and only one web page. JW19335762743 ( talk) 12:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, my bad. : ) Yes, I just noticed this. However, Peolpe's Daily is a very important Communist Party paper, and Chairman Mao emphasized the party control of the military, just like President Truman's control of General MacArthur. I would say a PRC DoD's web site, citing an article from People's Daily web edition, is every bit as official as any Chinese history professor. : ) JW19335762743 ( talk) 11:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
First of all Thank you for writing an article about the Chosen Reservoire Battle (the Forgotten war)...documentation about such war unfortunately are rare. You mention that the UNdeployed to the Chosen were nickname "The chosen Few" actually there are a small conflict on it...The men who died at the chosen were nickname "The Chosen" the very few that survive the battle were nickname the Chosen few. There will be a documentary movie created by a Captain featuring many survivor of the Chosen reservoir airing at the NatGeo this September I believe... I strongly recommand watching it... The title is " THE CHOSEN". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.12.55.129 ( talk) 14:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Would it make sense to add a section at the bottom of the article about rememberence/memorials of this battle in the "forgotten war"? A new memorial in Forest Park, St Louis, MO for the battle was dedicated today. I have a great picture of living members of the "The Chosin Few" gathered around the memorial if that is of interest. Apparently I don't have privlidges to upload to wikipeida - but I'd be happy to e-mail to somebody if they are interested.
The US military recently had a large gathering of veterans to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the battle ( source) — Ed! (talk) 06:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
While studying military history for a Wikipedia article on Unit cohesion, I came upon this quote:
So what was it that led to the disintegration of the RCT? Was it just the rapid loss of two top commanders, or was there something else? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 02:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Jim101, Since you are the current owner of this article, tell me why you have written that this battle of the Chosin Reservoir is also called the Chosin Campaign. Not all military fights are campaigns. The USMC seems to be the only official agency to call it a campaign, yet they have no campaign streamer for it on their colors. Not even their parent organization the Department of the Navy, nor the Department of Defense call it a Campaign. Admittedly some authors have repeated the word from the book of Marine Corps, but repeating a known untruth does not make it correct. Meyerj ( talk) 01:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
What most here don't realize is that there were 15,000 US troops, 12,000 suffered minor to severe frostbite, 3,000 died, 6,000 were wounded. It was one of the most brutally fought battles in the history of the US Military due to the bitter cold conditions. The US Forces killed 43,000 chinese, eliminating two entire divisions which were never seen on the field of battle again. They evacuated 98,000 North Korean (unarmed by law) refugee's as the Chinese and North Korean armies pursued the breakout, they slaughtered thousands, of (unarmed by law) civilians in their wake. Over 1 million descendants can be traced back to the 98,000 evacuated into South Korea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.100.46 ( talk) 21:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
It appears that people still disputing this even after all the professional Chinese and US sources I cited and crossed referenced, so I'll outline my cases more clearly:
1) I cite Professor Xue Yuan of PLA National Defense University in page 59 of his seminar work First Confrontation: Reviews and Reflections on the History of War to Resist America and Aid Korea:
...The 9th Army casualty exceed 40,000 men, including 30,000 frostbite casualties, plus 1,000 men that were frozen to death. After the battle the entire unit was turned into a "huge hospital", and three months were spent on healing the frostbitten soldiers. This is, in our army's history, the worst lesson on frostbite...
2) The official Chinese history (History of War to Resist America and Aid Korea, Volume II by PLA Military Science Academy) stated that 9th Army accounted for 40% of all Chinese combat forces in Korea until March 1951, and between Jan. to Feb. 1951 the UN forces expelled Chinese forces from South Korea partly due to lack of reinforcement on the Chinese side (this connection was explicitly stated by Patrick Roe in his book The Dragon Strike).
3) No Chinese history ever stated that they destroyed 1st Marine Division or the 7th Infantry Division, the main objectives for the battle as stated in page 113 of official Chinese history. The closest I could find to such claim was on page 126 of official Chinese history, which claims of "near annihilation" of 1st Marine Division and 7th Infantry Division. Allan R. Millett, in his book The War for Korea, 1950–1951: They Came From the North stated on page 356 that the word "annihilation" (歼灭) is a buzzword favored by Chinese media.
4) The complete expulsion of UN forces from Chosin was the direct result of Battle of the Ch'ongch'on River, not this battle. This fact was confirmed in official US Army history Ebb and Flow: November 1950 – July 1951, United States Army in the Korean War in Chapter VIII.
Unless someone can come up with counter arguments that the Chinese somehow gained benefits directly from the Chosin battle that outweighs the above points, I would argue that technically Chinese did not achieve a "Decisive Tactical Victory", and "Chinese Pyrrhic victory" is technically the most accurate description to the outcome of this battle. Jim101 ( talk) 17:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how this can be termed a Pyrrhic victory. The Chinese and North Korean forces drove the UN forces out of North Korea within two months. What's so "pyrrhic" about that?? You can say that the Chinese were successful "at great cost" or something along those lines, if you want but to call it "pyrrhic" is very misleading, in my view, and I have deleted the sentence. Star-lists ( talk) 02:33, 31 October 2016 (U:TC)
It should be noted that the Chinese 9th Army Group was one of the most experienced force in the entire Chinese Army and unlike what the article states it was at full strength. The actual enemy strength may have been 67,000 at the start of the battle but it grew to over 120,000 during the course of the battle. Most Chinese sources admit that the casualties suffered by the 9th Army were heavy. The numbers quoted are around 40,000. The article further states that the 9th Army took 40% losses. 40,000 out of 67,000 is closer to 70%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Palermoga ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
"Under Mao's urgent orders"
"Chosin" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Korean name, "Changjin".
The name Chosin is the Japanese pronunciation of the Korean place name Changjin, and the name stuck due to the outdated Japanese maps used by UN forces.
You want to put the first sentence in the intro? 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 18:54, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"The Marine night fighters" - which division are these guys in - "Marine night fighters" - please rephrase 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:03, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
This is totally illegal "finally start" - change to "felt they could" or "started" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:09, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"It was not long before the PVA 173rd" On the day/night of the PVA 173rd - not long before is a "nogo" - On either the day of blah or night of blah blah - I don't know what 'long before' is 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:17, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Change "initial estimate" to predicted Change "normally assumed" to estimated Or some fashion or the other of your choosing
or instead of predicted which is already used - how about "expected", anticipated, etc 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:23, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
...and normally predicted/assumed/anticipated by Who? 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:26, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
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Crediting Mao as a commander here is inaccurate. While it's true he was the leader of the PRC during this time, he was not in military command. Unless Harry Truman is listed as the first American commander here then it's inaccurate. The equivalent of Douglas MacArthur in this battle was Peng Dehuai-- Wordbearer88 ( talk) 04:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The Battle of Chosin Reservoir was part of a shambolic retreat, but this article tries to portray it as some kind of triumph.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes! And indeed your concerns. There's a frustration with Korean War history that North Korean and Chinese sources tend to be unreliable, and so the western historians tend to rely on the US Army's own research on the events. I think you've set it on a good path. — Ed! (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
Most of my reasoning on how to described the victory condition has been described in the section Talk:Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir#Chinese_Pyrrhic_victory. In summary, my thoughts are:
Although I do agree with one point with Jack Upland, I definitely think it is grossly inaccurate to describe this battle as some kind of "UN victory". Jim101 ( talk) 15:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
The info box, in my opinion, is misleading about the results of the battle. The battle was a Chinese victory, pure and simple, and it should so be stated. At present that fact is disguised by talking about a "failed Chinese encirclement of UN forces and successful withdrawal" and "disabling 40% of Chinese forces." The Chinese achieved their objective -- and that's a victory. So, I propose that the info box say "Chinese victory" and the other results can be listed after that. Smallchief ( talk) 16:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree that with Jack Upland that if reliable sources don't describe Chosin as a "pyrrhic victory" for the Chinese, it shouldn't be described that way on Wikipedia. (I'm not sure that I would regard all U.S. Marine Corps sources as "reliable." There's a lot of bravado and little fact in the "we're attacking in a different direction" rhetoric.)
Secondly, battles have a beginning and an end. At the end of the Chosin battle the Chinese were clearly the winners. To claim, as you did, that it was a "pyrrhic victory" because months later the Chinese last ground in South Korea is sort of like saying that the result of the Battle of the Little Bighorn is "disputed" or that the Indians only won a "pyrrhic victory" over Custer because within a short time the Indians lost the war. Don't confuse battles with wars.
Thirdly, the Battle of the Ch'ongch'on River happened at the same time as the Chosin battle. It doesn't seem reasonable to say that Ch'ongch'on was a "decisive Chinese victory" (as the wikipedia article does) while describing Chosin's result as "disputed" or "pyrrhic Chinese victory."
I suspect special pleading here. Chosin was primarily a battle fought by the Marine Corps; Ch'ongch'on was primarily fought by the US army. Is there a biased and non-neutral point of view in stating that Ch'ongch'on was a "decisive Chinese victory" while saying the result of Chosin is "disputed" or only a "pyrrhic victory" by the Chinese? The results of the two battles are as similar as peas in a pod -- the retreat of UN forces and their withdrawal from North Korea. Smallchief ( talk) 14:37, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Smallchief: No really the PVA (not the PLA) got the fucking shit kicked out of them. Do take a quick look through the article, the UN (not the US) forces broke through the attempted encirclement by the Chinese Communist forces, successfully withdrew from North Korea and disabled 40% of Chinese combat forces in Korea disabled until March 1951. Those are objectives as well which were as significant as the objectives that the PVA met. That's why it makes sense to leave the outcome item from the infobox out: because they at the very least cancel out. Just regurgitating that point about that retreat like it is somehow supposed to define the battle would turn this article into a fascist hit-piece. Wingwraith ( talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Jack Upland: We don't need a RFC, you already decided that we don't need the outcome item in the infobox and we already have enough people discussing the issue here anyway. Wingwraith ( talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Factotem: "As this article currently stands, the main narrative says only that it was a Chinese victory, sourcing the assertion to Malkasian, p. 91," No the paragraph where that citation occurs paints a narrative where neither side won (i.e. "Despite the losses, the US X Corps preserved much of its strength." and "With the absence of nearly 40 percent of the Chinese forces in Korea in early 1951, the heavy Chinese losses at Chosin ultimately enabled the UN forces to maintain a foothold in Korea.") and we used to have source(s) that said otherwise. Wingwraith ( talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Don't see anything in the Aftermath section that would justify See Aftermath for the result in the infobox. This has obviously been discussed at length here on the TP, which maybe influences perceptions, but the article fairly clearly states that it was a Chinese victory. The heavy casualties they incurred and the fact that the UN forces were able to extricate themselves so skillfully only serves to qualify the victory, not negate it. My comment above about See Aftermath was conditional. If the result was ambiguous enough to justify See Aftermath, then that needs to be brought out in the Aftermath section. Factotem ( talk) 20:14, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I had a closer look at the
Malkasian source and have removed the sentence that was sourced to it on grounds of
WP:OR. Page 91 (the specific page referenced) makes no mention of either the Chosin Reservoir or the primary UNC unit (X Corps) that participated in the battle, but the sentence says, "China was also catapulted into the status of a major military power following the victory at Chosin," I think the issue is that the author of the sentence conflated the relevant material in the Malkasian book (The catastrophic defeat of the US Eighth Army in November and December 1950 showed that liberating Communist countries could be excessively dangerous.
) with what happened at Chosin because both events occurred throughout exactly the same time frame. (November-December 1950) The claim about what happened to the Eighth Army is independent of what happened at Chosin Reservoir and the attempt to run the two together constitutes original research.
Wingwraith (
talk) 23:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I've made the following changes in relation to:
Wingwraith ( talk) 03:26, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Six refs for the first two sentences in the third para of the "Outcome assessment" section is unnecessary. Furthermore, with the exception of one, which I do not have access to, they are questionable:
I've tagged the statement as dubious. Factotem ( talk) 09:49, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
None of the six sources provided support the assertion that the Marines' actions can be linked to the determination of the outcome of the war, so I've tagged the first sentence in the second para of the "Outcome assessment" section with cite needed. Factotem ( talk) 11:37, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
The statement "Sources have described the outcome as a draw, characterizing it neither as an American defeat nor a Chinese victory." is sourced to p. 338 of U.S. Marines in the Korean War. That page makes no statement about the outcome of the battle, let alone what "sources" say about the outcome. Factotem ( talk) 18:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
It's been 2 months since I tagged a number of statements in the "Outcome assessment" section. There's been no attempt to fix them, so I've removed the statements they sourced. I've re-written the whole section. I've recognised the concern about starting that with a balanced view, so have led with Appleman's statement that both sides could claim victory. Everything that was well-sourced in the previous version has been retained. I have added statements sourced from Paul M. Edwards's work published this year, and arranged things in what seems to me to be a fair and logical sequence. I've also added a para about the belated recognition of Task Force MacLean/Faith. I guess we'll see how this flies soon enough. Factotem ( talk) 15:10, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
As I said above, I think we need to look at what the consensus of sources is. Here is how some sources describe the battle:
I don't think there is any equivocation in sources that this was a victory for the Chinese and a defeat for the US/UN.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:30, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
Further to the above:
It seems that none of the editors can read Chinese and use Chinese archival material directly. Based on the telegrams of Mao before and during the battle, it was clear that PVA failed to destroy any UNC units it planned to destroy, including the 5th and 7th Marine Regiments named by Mao. The only objective achieved was to push back UNC, but since UNC would have withdrawn once it discovered that PLA was in NK in substantial numbers (and MacArthur indeed ordered a withdrawal after the discovery), the objective didn't require a battle to achieve. The telegrams are cited in Chinese Wikipedia so I won't repeat them here. In the larger context, Mao wanted to destroy the major UNC forces in the Second Phase Offensive to end the war, and he failed at that. All China's moves can be understood with that in mind: not declaring war, entering NK secretly to hide its strength, set the goal of annihilating the entire UNC forces, etc. -- Happyseeu ( talk) 07:34, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
The sub-topics in the Aftermath section "Outcome assessment" and "Wider effect of the war." as now written have a lot of problems.
(1) There are four statements in these two subsections that have tags: two "not in citation", one "discuss," and one "citation needed."
(2) There are three appearances of weasel words: two say "sources" and one says "some assessments." Those weasel words need to be eliminated and the origin of the information needs to be identified.
(3) We are told twice that the 9th Chinese Army didn't return to the field until March 1951. One of these repetitive statements needs to be eliminated.
(4) One enthusiastic editor has deleted material that contradicts his bias. For example, he deleted a quote from Mao Zedong congratulating the 9th Chinese army on its victory was inappropriate -- but does not object to a quote from Mao in the sideboard that favors his bias. That's only one example of referenced material from reliable sources that has been deleted or minimized. At the same time General MacArthur's view is cited. If Mao's views are inappropriate, then why are MacArthur's views appropriate?
So, how do we proceed to fix this important article? I would say delete all the questionable, repetitive material as a start -- and undertake a thorough balanced re-draft of these two sections.
The weasely info box which says "See Aftermath" should also have a conclusion. I would propose, as a compromise, "Strategic victory for China. Successful withdrawal by UNC forces." Smallchief ( talk)
BTW, I don't know where to put this below:
Historian Yu Bin, on the other hand, noted that the PVA 9th Army had "became a giant hospital" in the aftermath while failed in its original objective of annihilating the UN forces at Chosin. [1] Jim101 ( talk) 01:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
References
Source can be previewed at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PsoDGLNmU30C&q=second+campaign#v=snippet&q=second%20campaign&f=false (p. 128 and 130)
With reference to this revert, of the statement "...the Second Campaign was a major victory for the CPV which dealt heavy blows to the UN forces but revealed shortcomings in the battle at Chosin", per Yu Bin, p.130: "But the Second Campaign also revealed more CPV shortcomings. On the eastern front, the 150,000-strong 9th Army Group (20th, 26th and 27th Armies) was not adequately prepared to face the U.S. 1st Marine Division and 7th Infantry Division." This explicitly links the action at Chosin as the "eastern front" of the Second Campaign. Factotem ( talk) 11:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
As for tagging the statement about the destruction of the 32nd Regiment as dubious, to quote Yu Bin word for word "Although it achieved the single greatest CPV victory of the war when it wiped out the entire 32nd Regiment of the 7th Infantry Division..." Factotem ( talk) 11:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
We're obviously not going to convince each other. I've posted a request at the MILHIST Project for opinions. Factotem ( talk) 20:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Probably as a result of the efforts of diverse editors over the years, this article has multiple referencing styles. I would like to standardize them, if no one objects. In particular, I would alter them to rely on {{ sfn}} to link to the references. Will wait about ten days for replies. ♦ Lingzhi.Random ( talk) 08:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
In the midst of reformatting the references (finished!), I discovered that Duncan (2013) is self-published. I'm leaving it in for the time being, so someone can find a replacement. But it probably needs to be removed at some point:
User:49.179.183.11 as with your edits on Hungnam evacuation you are mixing together separate and distinct aspects of the PVA offensive. This page deals with the Battle of Chosin Reservoir only. The entire Request for Nuclear Weapons was a result of the offensive, not this battle. I am fine with you adding these details to the Aftermath section of Second Phase Offensive or UN retreat from North Korea, but they don't belong here. Mztourist ( talk) 03:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
While this bridge is somewhere near Funchilin Pass and south of Hagaru-ri and Koto-ri, it doesn't seem like the western world has had a name for it. I found mention of this no-name bridge at Marine Corp University's Frozen Chosin US Marines at the Changjin Reservoir PCN 19000410000 (usmcu.edu). See page 98. Any expert here? Supermann ( talk) 01:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
The infobox cites Escaping the Trap to say the nominal strength of UNC is 103,520. I don't have a copy of the book, but preview from Google book shows the number to be 114,313, not 103,520. Can someone verify the number 103,520 is correct? Happyseeu ( talk) 22:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
The article says the duration of the battle is from November 27– December 13 1950, so casualty figures should cover only that period. However, the article uses the numbers from Montross & Canzona 1992, which covers the period of Oct. 8 - Dec. 24, leading to a higher figure and it diverges more from the numbers from X Corp., which was for Nov. 27 - Dec. 10. I'd adjust the total using the numbers from the Navy (by Field) which covers Nov. 27 - Dec. 11 and are more in line with the period used by X Corp. If someone wants to use the rows in Montross & Canzona 1992 to adjust for the period to include up to Dec. 13, I'm OK with it, too, though it seems more complicated than it's worth IMO. Happyseeu ( talk) 18:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
should this be added on how Tootsie Rolls Saved Troops at the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir if you want to do some research here is a link -> https://americangimuseum.org/tootsie-rolls-saved-troops-at-the-battle-of-the-chosin-reservoir/ https://tootsie.com/letters-stories/5 2604:3D09:A984:F000:246B:307E:EB7D:22C2 ( talk) 17:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Probably noteworthy to mention in the lead paragraph that the evacuation at Hungnam was the very last time American or South Korean troops would fight in North Korea. And that the US intelligence had failed to notice a quarter of million Chinese advancing only at night and camping camouflaged and marching 100 miles from the border to Chosin Reservoir, and that intelligence mishap was what lead to them effectively ending their control of North Korea. Saturdaysuggestion ( talk) 09:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)
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There is no debate. The U.S. retreated. It's that simple.
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 157.182.191.188 ( talk) 16:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)
Okay either the map is wrong or the write up is wrong. 31RCT was on the east side of the reservoir, strung out from Hudong to the north. Yet the section makes several references to them being in sinhung. Other maps reference sinhung in the same place, and in many readings about this battle I have never heard of any 31RCT elements on the west side of the reservoir. The article also contains several conflicting, (indeed physically impossible) statements such as being north of hudong yet south of sinhung. It also says hill 1221 commands the road between those two towns and yet it is clearly north of hudong. I am going to make some changes to clear this up over the next few days as anyone reading this section would probably become quickly confused. Outcast95 ( talk) 06:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
There are many places called "Sinhung" in that part of Korea. I think that there's another one north of Hudong that is not shown in the battle map. GiuseppeFichera ( talk) 21:51, 6 June 2019 (UTC)
Although Chinese troops managed to surround and outnumber the UN forces, the UN forces broke out of the encirclement while inflicting crippling losses to the Chinese. The evacuation of the X Corps from the port of Hungnam marked the complete withdraw of UN troops from North Korea.
There are two problems here: (1) in what sense were the Chinese losses "crippling"? Those losses were a small drop in China's manpower pool. Unless someone can produce evidence to justify this claim -for example by documenting that Chinese losses effected their subsequent operations in Korea- I'm editing this to reflect a NPOV; (2) this sentence goes to great lengths to avoid saying the obvious - that Chosin Reservoir was a DEFEAT for the US / UN. Lexington50 ( talk) 20:51, 29 March 2010 (UTC)
Like so many of the American commercially published 'history books' that Jim101 references and the "official" US Marine Corps published history, most of which do not have a NPOV; they are written to glorify the Marine Corps. For instance, is it not written in at least one of the references that this battle was a "Campaign"? Then why is not on the list of Official US Navy Campaigns? Remember that the US Marine Corps is a part of the Department of the Navy within the US Department of Defense and is not entitled to have a separate list of campaigns. Accuracy is always in question and brighter people than I have written many half and total untruths and called it fact. If it is written and verifiable, it must be fact? Meyerj ( talk) 11:38, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
A comment on point (3) above. The following link is a Web Page from the Chinese government : " http://www.mod.gov.cn/big5/hist/2014-11/18/content_4559054.htm", they really didn't quite describe this battle as a "massive failure". JW19335762743 ( talk) 08:01, 16 January 2015 (UTC)
...The 9th Army casualty exceed 40,000 men, including 30,000 frostbite casualties, plus 1,000 men that were frozen to death. After the battle the entire unit was turned into a "huge hospital", and three months were spent on healing the frostbitten soldiers. This is, in our army's history, the worst lesson on frostbite...
The PVA 9th Army's combat operation is carried out in harsh conditions. During the battle, snow storm was non-stop and the average temperature was between -27 to -30 degrees Celsius. Soldiers were wearing thin clothing, suffering hunger and cold, lacking proper supplies, some units can only have one frozen meal per every two days, soldier's health was deteriorating rapidly, frostbite casualties was severe. During the battles at Sinhung-ni, the 27th Corps 80th Division 250th Regiment 5th Company was suppressed by enemy firepower, all units were frozen to death due to taking cover on the snow covered grounds. The severe winter weather also affected weapon use, causing 70% weapons not operational, large numbers of rifles and machine guns were frozen and unable to fire, communications were also adversely impacted.
The web site I cited belongs to the "Ministry Of National Defense Of The People's Republic Of China", not People's Daily. I have no idea why Jim101 mentioned People's Daily. Chinese official viewpoint, in my understanding, be it official propaganda or official history, does not view this battle as a failure, and they have very good reasons. JW19335762743 ( talk) 09:05, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
The web page I cited was " http://www.mod.gov.cn/big5/hist/2014-11/18/content_4559054.htm", am I talking about the same page with Jim101? I cited one and only one web page. JW19335762743 ( talk) 12:31, 2 February 2015 (UTC)
Oh, my bad. : ) Yes, I just noticed this. However, Peolpe's Daily is a very important Communist Party paper, and Chairman Mao emphasized the party control of the military, just like President Truman's control of General MacArthur. I would say a PRC DoD's web site, citing an article from People's Daily web edition, is every bit as official as any Chinese history professor. : ) JW19335762743 ( talk) 11:05, 6 February 2015 (UTC)
First of all Thank you for writing an article about the Chosen Reservoire Battle (the Forgotten war)...documentation about such war unfortunately are rare. You mention that the UNdeployed to the Chosen were nickname "The chosen Few" actually there are a small conflict on it...The men who died at the chosen were nickname "The Chosen" the very few that survive the battle were nickname the Chosen few. There will be a documentary movie created by a Captain featuring many survivor of the Chosen reservoir airing at the NatGeo this September I believe... I strongly recommand watching it... The title is " THE CHOSEN". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.12.55.129 ( talk) 14:49, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Would it make sense to add a section at the bottom of the article about rememberence/memorials of this battle in the "forgotten war"? A new memorial in Forest Park, St Louis, MO for the battle was dedicated today. I have a great picture of living members of the "The Chosin Few" gathered around the memorial if that is of interest. Apparently I don't have privlidges to upload to wikipeida - but I'd be happy to e-mail to somebody if they are interested.
The US military recently had a large gathering of veterans to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the battle ( source) — Ed! (talk) 06:20, 12 November 2010 (UTC)
While studying military history for a Wikipedia article on Unit cohesion, I came upon this quote:
So what was it that led to the disintegration of the RCT? Was it just the rapid loss of two top commanders, or was there something else? -- Uncle Ed ( talk) 02:06, 25 April 2011 (UTC)
Jim101, Since you are the current owner of this article, tell me why you have written that this battle of the Chosin Reservoir is also called the Chosin Campaign. Not all military fights are campaigns. The USMC seems to be the only official agency to call it a campaign, yet they have no campaign streamer for it on their colors. Not even their parent organization the Department of the Navy, nor the Department of Defense call it a Campaign. Admittedly some authors have repeated the word from the book of Marine Corps, but repeating a known untruth does not make it correct. Meyerj ( talk) 01:12, 23 July 2011 (UTC)
What most here don't realize is that there were 15,000 US troops, 12,000 suffered minor to severe frostbite, 3,000 died, 6,000 were wounded. It was one of the most brutally fought battles in the history of the US Military due to the bitter cold conditions. The US Forces killed 43,000 chinese, eliminating two entire divisions which were never seen on the field of battle again. They evacuated 98,000 North Korean (unarmed by law) refugee's as the Chinese and North Korean armies pursued the breakout, they slaughtered thousands, of (unarmed by law) civilians in their wake. Over 1 million descendants can be traced back to the 98,000 evacuated into South Korea. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.201.100.46 ( talk) 21:27, 9 January 2013 (UTC)
It appears that people still disputing this even after all the professional Chinese and US sources I cited and crossed referenced, so I'll outline my cases more clearly:
1) I cite Professor Xue Yuan of PLA National Defense University in page 59 of his seminar work First Confrontation: Reviews and Reflections on the History of War to Resist America and Aid Korea:
...The 9th Army casualty exceed 40,000 men, including 30,000 frostbite casualties, plus 1,000 men that were frozen to death. After the battle the entire unit was turned into a "huge hospital", and three months were spent on healing the frostbitten soldiers. This is, in our army's history, the worst lesson on frostbite...
2) The official Chinese history (History of War to Resist America and Aid Korea, Volume II by PLA Military Science Academy) stated that 9th Army accounted for 40% of all Chinese combat forces in Korea until March 1951, and between Jan. to Feb. 1951 the UN forces expelled Chinese forces from South Korea partly due to lack of reinforcement on the Chinese side (this connection was explicitly stated by Patrick Roe in his book The Dragon Strike).
3) No Chinese history ever stated that they destroyed 1st Marine Division or the 7th Infantry Division, the main objectives for the battle as stated in page 113 of official Chinese history. The closest I could find to such claim was on page 126 of official Chinese history, which claims of "near annihilation" of 1st Marine Division and 7th Infantry Division. Allan R. Millett, in his book The War for Korea, 1950–1951: They Came From the North stated on page 356 that the word "annihilation" (歼灭) is a buzzword favored by Chinese media.
4) The complete expulsion of UN forces from Chosin was the direct result of Battle of the Ch'ongch'on River, not this battle. This fact was confirmed in official US Army history Ebb and Flow: November 1950 – July 1951, United States Army in the Korean War in Chapter VIII.
Unless someone can come up with counter arguments that the Chinese somehow gained benefits directly from the Chosin battle that outweighs the above points, I would argue that technically Chinese did not achieve a "Decisive Tactical Victory", and "Chinese Pyrrhic victory" is technically the most accurate description to the outcome of this battle. Jim101 ( talk) 17:18, 9 June 2013 (UTC)
I don't see how this can be termed a Pyrrhic victory. The Chinese and North Korean forces drove the UN forces out of North Korea within two months. What's so "pyrrhic" about that?? You can say that the Chinese were successful "at great cost" or something along those lines, if you want but to call it "pyrrhic" is very misleading, in my view, and I have deleted the sentence. Star-lists ( talk) 02:33, 31 October 2016 (U:TC)
It should be noted that the Chinese 9th Army Group was one of the most experienced force in the entire Chinese Army and unlike what the article states it was at full strength. The actual enemy strength may have been 67,000 at the start of the battle but it grew to over 120,000 during the course of the battle. Most Chinese sources admit that the casualties suffered by the 9th Army were heavy. The numbers quoted are around 40,000. The article further states that the 9th Army took 40% losses. 40,000 out of 67,000 is closer to 70%. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Palermoga ( talk • contribs) 16:37, 27 November 2013 (UTC)
"Under Mao's urgent orders"
"Chosin" is the Japanese pronunciation of the Korean name, "Changjin".
The name Chosin is the Japanese pronunciation of the Korean place name Changjin, and the name stuck due to the outdated Japanese maps used by UN forces.
You want to put the first sentence in the intro? 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 18:54, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"The Marine night fighters" - which division are these guys in - "Marine night fighters" - please rephrase 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:03, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
This is totally illegal "finally start" - change to "felt they could" or "started" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:09, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"It was not long before the PVA 173rd" On the day/night of the PVA 173rd - not long before is a "nogo" - On either the day of blah or night of blah blah - I don't know what 'long before' is 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:17, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
Change "initial estimate" to predicted Change "normally assumed" to estimated Or some fashion or the other of your choosing
or instead of predicted which is already used - how about "expected", anticipated, etc 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:23, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
...and normally predicted/assumed/anticipated by Who? 66.234.58.131 ( talk) 19:26, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
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Crediting Mao as a commander here is inaccurate. While it's true he was the leader of the PRC during this time, he was not in military command. Unless Harry Truman is listed as the first American commander here then it's inaccurate. The equivalent of Douglas MacArthur in this battle was Peng Dehuai-- Wordbearer88 ( talk) 04:57, 3 August 2017 (UTC)
The Battle of Chosin Reservoir was part of a shambolic retreat, but this article tries to portray it as some kind of triumph.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 09:21, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for your changes! And indeed your concerns. There's a frustration with Korean War history that North Korean and Chinese sources tend to be unreliable, and so the western historians tend to rely on the US Army's own research on the events. I think you've set it on a good path. — Ed! (talk) 00:12, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
Most of my reasoning on how to described the victory condition has been described in the section Talk:Battle_of_Chosin_Reservoir#Chinese_Pyrrhic_victory. In summary, my thoughts are:
Although I do agree with one point with Jack Upland, I definitely think it is grossly inaccurate to describe this battle as some kind of "UN victory". Jim101 ( talk) 15:42, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
The info box, in my opinion, is misleading about the results of the battle. The battle was a Chinese victory, pure and simple, and it should so be stated. At present that fact is disguised by talking about a "failed Chinese encirclement of UN forces and successful withdrawal" and "disabling 40% of Chinese forces." The Chinese achieved their objective -- and that's a victory. So, I propose that the info box say "Chinese victory" and the other results can be listed after that. Smallchief ( talk) 16:55, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
I agree that with Jack Upland that if reliable sources don't describe Chosin as a "pyrrhic victory" for the Chinese, it shouldn't be described that way on Wikipedia. (I'm not sure that I would regard all U.S. Marine Corps sources as "reliable." There's a lot of bravado and little fact in the "we're attacking in a different direction" rhetoric.)
Secondly, battles have a beginning and an end. At the end of the Chosin battle the Chinese were clearly the winners. To claim, as you did, that it was a "pyrrhic victory" because months later the Chinese last ground in South Korea is sort of like saying that the result of the Battle of the Little Bighorn is "disputed" or that the Indians only won a "pyrrhic victory" over Custer because within a short time the Indians lost the war. Don't confuse battles with wars.
Thirdly, the Battle of the Ch'ongch'on River happened at the same time as the Chosin battle. It doesn't seem reasonable to say that Ch'ongch'on was a "decisive Chinese victory" (as the wikipedia article does) while describing Chosin's result as "disputed" or "pyrrhic Chinese victory."
I suspect special pleading here. Chosin was primarily a battle fought by the Marine Corps; Ch'ongch'on was primarily fought by the US army. Is there a biased and non-neutral point of view in stating that Ch'ongch'on was a "decisive Chinese victory" while saying the result of Chosin is "disputed" or only a "pyrrhic victory" by the Chinese? The results of the two battles are as similar as peas in a pod -- the retreat of UN forces and their withdrawal from North Korea. Smallchief ( talk) 14:37, 11 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Smallchief: No really the PVA (not the PLA) got the fucking shit kicked out of them. Do take a quick look through the article, the UN (not the US) forces broke through the attempted encirclement by the Chinese Communist forces, successfully withdrew from North Korea and disabled 40% of Chinese combat forces in Korea disabled until March 1951. Those are objectives as well which were as significant as the objectives that the PVA met. That's why it makes sense to leave the outcome item from the infobox out: because they at the very least cancel out. Just regurgitating that point about that retreat like it is somehow supposed to define the battle would turn this article into a fascist hit-piece. Wingwraith ( talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Jack Upland: We don't need a RFC, you already decided that we don't need the outcome item in the infobox and we already have enough people discussing the issue here anyway. Wingwraith ( talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
@ Factotem: "As this article currently stands, the main narrative says only that it was a Chinese victory, sourcing the assertion to Malkasian, p. 91," No the paragraph where that citation occurs paints a narrative where neither side won (i.e. "Despite the losses, the US X Corps preserved much of its strength." and "With the absence of nearly 40 percent of the Chinese forces in Korea in early 1951, the heavy Chinese losses at Chosin ultimately enabled the UN forces to maintain a foothold in Korea.") and we used to have source(s) that said otherwise. Wingwraith ( talk) 01:38, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
Don't see anything in the Aftermath section that would justify See Aftermath for the result in the infobox. This has obviously been discussed at length here on the TP, which maybe influences perceptions, but the article fairly clearly states that it was a Chinese victory. The heavy casualties they incurred and the fact that the UN forces were able to extricate themselves so skillfully only serves to qualify the victory, not negate it. My comment above about See Aftermath was conditional. If the result was ambiguous enough to justify See Aftermath, then that needs to be brought out in the Aftermath section. Factotem ( talk) 20:14, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I had a closer look at the
Malkasian source and have removed the sentence that was sourced to it on grounds of
WP:OR. Page 91 (the specific page referenced) makes no mention of either the Chosin Reservoir or the primary UNC unit (X Corps) that participated in the battle, but the sentence says, "China was also catapulted into the status of a major military power following the victory at Chosin," I think the issue is that the author of the sentence conflated the relevant material in the Malkasian book (The catastrophic defeat of the US Eighth Army in November and December 1950 showed that liberating Communist countries could be excessively dangerous.
) with what happened at Chosin because both events occurred throughout exactly the same time frame. (November-December 1950) The claim about what happened to the Eighth Army is independent of what happened at Chosin Reservoir and the attempt to run the two together constitutes original research.
Wingwraith (
talk) 23:54, 25 June 2018 (UTC)
I've made the following changes in relation to:
Wingwraith ( talk) 03:26, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
Six refs for the first two sentences in the third para of the "Outcome assessment" section is unnecessary. Furthermore, with the exception of one, which I do not have access to, they are questionable:
I've tagged the statement as dubious. Factotem ( talk) 09:49, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
None of the six sources provided support the assertion that the Marines' actions can be linked to the determination of the outcome of the war, so I've tagged the first sentence in the second para of the "Outcome assessment" section with cite needed. Factotem ( talk) 11:37, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
The statement "Sources have described the outcome as a draw, characterizing it neither as an American defeat nor a Chinese victory." is sourced to p. 338 of U.S. Marines in the Korean War. That page makes no statement about the outcome of the battle, let alone what "sources" say about the outcome. Factotem ( talk) 18:51, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
It's been 2 months since I tagged a number of statements in the "Outcome assessment" section. There's been no attempt to fix them, so I've removed the statements they sourced. I've re-written the whole section. I've recognised the concern about starting that with a balanced view, so have led with Appleman's statement that both sides could claim victory. Everything that was well-sourced in the previous version has been retained. I have added statements sourced from Paul M. Edwards's work published this year, and arranged things in what seems to me to be a fair and logical sequence. I've also added a para about the belated recognition of Task Force MacLean/Faith. I guess we'll see how this flies soon enough. Factotem ( talk) 15:10, 19 September 2018 (UTC)
As I said above, I think we need to look at what the consensus of sources is. Here is how some sources describe the battle:
I don't think there is any equivocation in sources that this was a victory for the Chinese and a defeat for the US/UN.-- Jack Upland ( talk) 07:30, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
Further to the above:
It seems that none of the editors can read Chinese and use Chinese archival material directly. Based on the telegrams of Mao before and during the battle, it was clear that PVA failed to destroy any UNC units it planned to destroy, including the 5th and 7th Marine Regiments named by Mao. The only objective achieved was to push back UNC, but since UNC would have withdrawn once it discovered that PLA was in NK in substantial numbers (and MacArthur indeed ordered a withdrawal after the discovery), the objective didn't require a battle to achieve. The telegrams are cited in Chinese Wikipedia so I won't repeat them here. In the larger context, Mao wanted to destroy the major UNC forces in the Second Phase Offensive to end the war, and he failed at that. All China's moves can be understood with that in mind: not declaring war, entering NK secretly to hide its strength, set the goal of annihilating the entire UNC forces, etc. -- Happyseeu ( talk) 07:34, 5 December 2022 (UTC)
The sub-topics in the Aftermath section "Outcome assessment" and "Wider effect of the war." as now written have a lot of problems.
(1) There are four statements in these two subsections that have tags: two "not in citation", one "discuss," and one "citation needed."
(2) There are three appearances of weasel words: two say "sources" and one says "some assessments." Those weasel words need to be eliminated and the origin of the information needs to be identified.
(3) We are told twice that the 9th Chinese Army didn't return to the field until March 1951. One of these repetitive statements needs to be eliminated.
(4) One enthusiastic editor has deleted material that contradicts his bias. For example, he deleted a quote from Mao Zedong congratulating the 9th Chinese army on its victory was inappropriate -- but does not object to a quote from Mao in the sideboard that favors his bias. That's only one example of referenced material from reliable sources that has been deleted or minimized. At the same time General MacArthur's view is cited. If Mao's views are inappropriate, then why are MacArthur's views appropriate?
So, how do we proceed to fix this important article? I would say delete all the questionable, repetitive material as a start -- and undertake a thorough balanced re-draft of these two sections.
The weasely info box which says "See Aftermath" should also have a conclusion. I would propose, as a compromise, "Strategic victory for China. Successful withdrawal by UNC forces." Smallchief ( talk)
BTW, I don't know where to put this below:
Historian Yu Bin, on the other hand, noted that the PVA 9th Army had "became a giant hospital" in the aftermath while failed in its original objective of annihilating the UN forces at Chosin. [1] Jim101 ( talk) 01:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
References
Source can be previewed at https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=PsoDGLNmU30C&q=second+campaign#v=snippet&q=second%20campaign&f=false (p. 128 and 130)
With reference to this revert, of the statement "...the Second Campaign was a major victory for the CPV which dealt heavy blows to the UN forces but revealed shortcomings in the battle at Chosin", per Yu Bin, p.130: "But the Second Campaign also revealed more CPV shortcomings. On the eastern front, the 150,000-strong 9th Army Group (20th, 26th and 27th Armies) was not adequately prepared to face the U.S. 1st Marine Division and 7th Infantry Division." This explicitly links the action at Chosin as the "eastern front" of the Second Campaign. Factotem ( talk) 11:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
As for tagging the statement about the destruction of the 32nd Regiment as dubious, to quote Yu Bin word for word "Although it achieved the single greatest CPV victory of the war when it wiped out the entire 32nd Regiment of the 7th Infantry Division..." Factotem ( talk) 11:33, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
We're obviously not going to convince each other. I've posted a request at the MILHIST Project for opinions. Factotem ( talk) 20:37, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Probably as a result of the efforts of diverse editors over the years, this article has multiple referencing styles. I would like to standardize them, if no one objects. In particular, I would alter them to rely on {{ sfn}} to link to the references. Will wait about ten days for replies. ♦ Lingzhi.Random ( talk) 08:25, 27 August 2021 (UTC)
In the midst of reformatting the references (finished!), I discovered that Duncan (2013) is self-published. I'm leaving it in for the time being, so someone can find a replacement. But it probably needs to be removed at some point:
User:49.179.183.11 as with your edits on Hungnam evacuation you are mixing together separate and distinct aspects of the PVA offensive. This page deals with the Battle of Chosin Reservoir only. The entire Request for Nuclear Weapons was a result of the offensive, not this battle. I am fine with you adding these details to the Aftermath section of Second Phase Offensive or UN retreat from North Korea, but they don't belong here. Mztourist ( talk) 03:46, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
While this bridge is somewhere near Funchilin Pass and south of Hagaru-ri and Koto-ri, it doesn't seem like the western world has had a name for it. I found mention of this no-name bridge at Marine Corp University's Frozen Chosin US Marines at the Changjin Reservoir PCN 19000410000 (usmcu.edu). See page 98. Any expert here? Supermann ( talk) 01:15, 1 November 2021 (UTC)
The infobox cites Escaping the Trap to say the nominal strength of UNC is 103,520. I don't have a copy of the book, but preview from Google book shows the number to be 114,313, not 103,520. Can someone verify the number 103,520 is correct? Happyseeu ( talk) 22:13, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
The article says the duration of the battle is from November 27– December 13 1950, so casualty figures should cover only that period. However, the article uses the numbers from Montross & Canzona 1992, which covers the period of Oct. 8 - Dec. 24, leading to a higher figure and it diverges more from the numbers from X Corp., which was for Nov. 27 - Dec. 10. I'd adjust the total using the numbers from the Navy (by Field) which covers Nov. 27 - Dec. 11 and are more in line with the period used by X Corp. If someone wants to use the rows in Montross & Canzona 1992 to adjust for the period to include up to Dec. 13, I'm OK with it, too, though it seems more complicated than it's worth IMO. Happyseeu ( talk) 18:56, 6 December 2022 (UTC)
should this be added on how Tootsie Rolls Saved Troops at the Battle of the Chosin Reservoir if you want to do some research here is a link -> https://americangimuseum.org/tootsie-rolls-saved-troops-at-the-battle-of-the-chosin-reservoir/ https://tootsie.com/letters-stories/5 2604:3D09:A984:F000:246B:307E:EB7D:22C2 ( talk) 17:22, 28 December 2023 (UTC)
Probably noteworthy to mention in the lead paragraph that the evacuation at Hungnam was the very last time American or South Korean troops would fight in North Korea. And that the US intelligence had failed to notice a quarter of million Chinese advancing only at night and camping camouflaged and marching 100 miles from the border to Chosin Reservoir, and that intelligence mishap was what lead to them effectively ending their control of North Korea. Saturdaysuggestion ( talk) 09:52, 13 January 2024 (UTC)