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The article, though interesting, contains a minor error. The German commander is listed as Herman von Oppeln-Bronikowski. The Commander of the Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzer Corps at the time was Generalleutnant Wilhelm Schmalz. At the time of the Battle of Bautzen, von Oppeln-Bronikowski was the commander of the 20th Panzer Division. The 20th Panzer Division participated in the attack along with the units cited in the article and as well as others referenced below.
The German order of battle, under the command of the 4th Panzer Army (Gen der Panzertruppe Graeser), included:
Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzer Corps GenLt Wilhelm Schmalz; 1st Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzer Division, GenMaj Lemke; 2nd Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzergrenadier Division, GenMaj Walther
Grossdeutschland Panzer Corps, Gen der Panzertruppe Jauer; XXXXVIII Panzer Corps, GenLt Hageman
Panzer Grenadier Division "Brandenburg," GenMaj Schulte-Heuhaus; 20th Panzer Division, GenMaj von Oppeln-Bronikowski; 17th Infantrie Division
References: Fire Brigades, The Panzer Divisions, 1943-1945, by Kamen Nevenkin; The History of the Fallschirm Panzerkorps Herman Goering, by Franz Kurowski; The History of the Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland, vol. 3, by Helmut Spaeter;
Herman von Oppeln-Bronikowski, was an Olympic Equestrian himself, later coached the Canadian Olympic Equestrian team after the war.
Of other interest, the "Fuhrer Begleit Division" composed originally of members of Hitler's escort unit and later expanded to a divisional unit, was destroyed slightly north of Bautzen on 22 April 1945. The unit was commanded by GenMaj Ernst Remer, the battalion commander responsible for putting down the 20 August 1944 plot.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.114.29 ( talk • contribs) 19:43, April 26, 2010
Reading Stanisław Komornicki, Poles in the battle of Berlin, Polish Ministry of National Defense, 1967, this battle is described on p.130-134. The source confirms most facts, but does not call the battle a German victory. Rather, it notes that while the Poles took heeavy casualties, they prevented the Germans from breaking to the Polish/Soviet rear and thus foiled their plan to interrupt the Soviet advance on Berlin. Also, the title of the chapter beginning on p.121 ("Field-marshal Schörner did not get there") and a lead sentence of the new chapter ("Berlin") on p. 138 "Just as the Polish armed forces staved off enemy efforts at coming to the rescue of stricken Berlin..." imply that the German goal was to link up with Berlin, which the Poles prevented. Overall, it looks to me like an early tactical German victory, ending with the eventual defeat (German forces forced to retreat) and strategic failure (Polish/Soviet advance on Berlin not interrupted). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I cannot find any sources that use this name outside Wikipedia (this article). Is it OR, or some improper translation (from Russian?)? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:51, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree it was the regular one, but for future discussion, it is worth nothing some sources erroneously give the 5th Armored as fighting here. ( [1]) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Review in progress
The first external link is dead
Ajh1492 (
talk) 14:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Ajh1492 ( talk) 15:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Otherwise It's in good shape. Ajh1492 ( talk) 15:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the source used for the German casualties, those 6,500 is only a Polish estimate which some "historians consider to be inflated". You may should add that in a footnote. StoneProphet ( talk) 03:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
A general problem seems to be the rather uncritical usage of sources published by the People's Republic of Poland's official military publishing house in 1967. Is it actually possible to write an "unbiased" article almost exclusively based on such a source? HerkusMonte ( talk) 16:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's my comments on the article lead:
I'll review the rest later tonight. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 21:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm stopping here for now because I'm getting tired for the day, but also because I'm concerned about the prose, as this has been a tough read for me so far. I'll read through it again tomorrow, but honestly I'm leaning towards failing this so far. Hopefully the article gets better the further in I get. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I'll put the article on hold and pass when the issues are fixed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Reality sometimes intrudes upon other activities. The comments from Wizardman sounds good. Ajh1492 ( talk) 15:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Was a bit surprised myself, since I've read your article before and usually been impressed. I chalked it up to lack of sleep, and as such here's a full review now:
It reads much better today, so my earlier comments don't apply. Article remains on hold and I'll pass it after these are addressed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:59, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Everything checks out now after another look-through, so I'll pass the article as a GA. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:19, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Please see my comment here. I'd hope we can verify them and add inline citations soon; otherwise we will have to move that content to talk. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 01:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Since the war was almost over and Germany was about to surrender in a few days, shouldn't the result be more something like "Strategically indecisive"? It seems both sides overexaggerated the impact of this battle for propaganda purposes. Nobody won anything here. The Germans took a meaningless strip of land which they hold for the last days of the war. The Poles/Soviets won even less, in fact i fail to see anything they won at all, since the "victory claim" seems to be entirly based on the assumption that the Germans wanted and were about to break into Berlin, which seems to be clearly out of reality. StoneProphet ( talk) 21:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
(back to left) From Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Volume 10/1, p. 649.
The southern group led another successful counterattack at Bautzen that mainly struck the Polish 2nd Army. It did not alter the outcome of Konev's offensive.
Translation is mine. W. B. Wilson ( talk) 20:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I dont want you to take anything out. I only argue because of this "statements were contradictory whatever", mainly in the result box, as this looks strange. I can add a sentence about the "German view" (in the historiography section) if you want. StoneProphet ( talk) 05:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Suggest the passage German forces were composed of elements of the remnants of Army Group Centre (in particular, elements of the 4th Panzer and 17th armies). For the battle, according to Polish general and military historian, Stanisław Komornicki, the Germans had two armoured divisions, a mechanized division and an infantry division. Wawer and Solak name more divisions (or their elements), including the 20th and 21st Panzer Divisions, 2nd and 10th SS Panzer Divisions, 1. Fallschirm-Panzer-Division "Hermann Göring", the 2. Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier-Division "Hermann Göring", the Panzergrenadier Division Brandenburg and the 600th Infantry Division (of the Russian Liberation Army) - around 50,000 men. be presented as:
German forces were composed of elements of the 4th Panzer Army and commanded by the headquarters for the Grossdeutschland and 57th Armoured Corps. For the battle, the Germans had two armoured divisions (the 20th and Hermann Goering Divisions), two mechanized divisions (the Brandenburg and Hermann Goering 2 Divisions), an infantry division (the 17th) as well as an infantry division battle group (the remnants of the 545th Volksgrenadier Division). This force counted some 50,000 soldiers, 300 tanks, and 600 guns. The supply train of the 10th SS Armoured Division was also present near Bautzen.
The reference for this description is Grzelak, p. 272. Note that the 17th Army was some 100 kilometers to the east of Bautzen -- not sure it was part of this battle at all. The reference for the presence of the 10th SS supply train is here - 10th SS sub-page at www.lexicon-der-wehrmacht.de. If we can settle on this description or something similar, then "note b" can be removed in its entirety. W. B. Wilson ( talk) 10:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
As noted in the milhist A-class review here, note b has insufficient references. Wilson, could you add them, as this is your note? Thanks! -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
According at least to the German inscription on the monument depicted at the top of this article, it is a memorial not to the Polish and Russian soldiers who fell in battle, but specifically to 92 Polish and Russian citizens murdered at a specific location in the course of the battle -- one of the numerous war crimes carried out by both sides here. 50.137.239.197 ( talk) 23:17, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Battle of Bautzen (1945) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Battle of Bautzen (1945) has been listed as one of the Warfare good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it. | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article is rated GA-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
The article, though interesting, contains a minor error. The German commander is listed as Herman von Oppeln-Bronikowski. The Commander of the Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzer Corps at the time was Generalleutnant Wilhelm Schmalz. At the time of the Battle of Bautzen, von Oppeln-Bronikowski was the commander of the 20th Panzer Division. The 20th Panzer Division participated in the attack along with the units cited in the article and as well as others referenced below.
The German order of battle, under the command of the 4th Panzer Army (Gen der Panzertruppe Graeser), included:
Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzer Corps GenLt Wilhelm Schmalz; 1st Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzer Division, GenMaj Lemke; 2nd Herman Goering Fallschirmjaeger (Parachute) Panzergrenadier Division, GenMaj Walther
Grossdeutschland Panzer Corps, Gen der Panzertruppe Jauer; XXXXVIII Panzer Corps, GenLt Hageman
Panzer Grenadier Division "Brandenburg," GenMaj Schulte-Heuhaus; 20th Panzer Division, GenMaj von Oppeln-Bronikowski; 17th Infantrie Division
References: Fire Brigades, The Panzer Divisions, 1943-1945, by Kamen Nevenkin; The History of the Fallschirm Panzerkorps Herman Goering, by Franz Kurowski; The History of the Panzerkorps Grossdeutschland, vol. 3, by Helmut Spaeter;
Herman von Oppeln-Bronikowski, was an Olympic Equestrian himself, later coached the Canadian Olympic Equestrian team after the war.
Of other interest, the "Fuhrer Begleit Division" composed originally of members of Hitler's escort unit and later expanded to a divisional unit, was destroyed slightly north of Bautzen on 22 April 1945. The unit was commanded by GenMaj Ernst Remer, the battalion commander responsible for putting down the 20 August 1944 plot.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.62.114.29 ( talk • contribs) 19:43, April 26, 2010
Reading Stanisław Komornicki, Poles in the battle of Berlin, Polish Ministry of National Defense, 1967, this battle is described on p.130-134. The source confirms most facts, but does not call the battle a German victory. Rather, it notes that while the Poles took heeavy casualties, they prevented the Germans from breaking to the Polish/Soviet rear and thus foiled their plan to interrupt the Soviet advance on Berlin. Also, the title of the chapter beginning on p.121 ("Field-marshal Schörner did not get there") and a lead sentence of the new chapter ("Berlin") on p. 138 "Just as the Polish armed forces staved off enemy efforts at coming to the rescue of stricken Berlin..." imply that the German goal was to link up with Berlin, which the Poles prevented. Overall, it looks to me like an early tactical German victory, ending with the eventual defeat (German forces forced to retreat) and strategic failure (Polish/Soviet advance on Berlin not interrupted). -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 03:20, 2 May 2011 (UTC)
I cannot find any sources that use this name outside Wikipedia (this article). Is it OR, or some improper translation (from Russian?)? -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 00:51, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I agree it was the regular one, but for future discussion, it is worth nothing some sources erroneously give the 5th Armored as fighting here. ( [1]) -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 16:33, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: Wizardman Operation Big Bear 18:44, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria
Review in progress
The first external link is dead
Ajh1492 (
talk) 14:27, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Ajh1492 ( talk) 15:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
Otherwise It's in good shape. Ajh1492 ( talk) 15:18, 1 August 2011 (UTC)
According to the source used for the German casualties, those 6,500 is only a Polish estimate which some "historians consider to be inflated". You may should add that in a footnote. StoneProphet ( talk) 03:18, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
A general problem seems to be the rather uncritical usage of sources published by the People's Republic of Poland's official military publishing house in 1967. Is it actually possible to write an "unbiased" article almost exclusively based on such a source? HerkusMonte ( talk) 16:28, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
Here's my comments on the article lead:
I'll review the rest later tonight. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 21:27, 29 August 2011 (UTC)
I'm stopping here for now because I'm getting tired for the day, but also because I'm concerned about the prose, as this has been a tough read for me so far. I'll read through it again tomorrow, but honestly I'm leaning towards failing this so far. Hopefully the article gets better the further in I get. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
I'll put the article on hold and pass when the issues are fixed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 03:45, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Reality sometimes intrudes upon other activities. The comments from Wizardman sounds good. Ajh1492 ( talk) 15:27, 30 August 2011 (UTC)
Was a bit surprised myself, since I've read your article before and usually been impressed. I chalked it up to lack of sleep, and as such here's a full review now:
It reads much better today, so my earlier comments don't apply. Article remains on hold and I'll pass it after these are addressed. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 02:59, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Everything checks out now after another look-through, so I'll pass the article as a GA. Wizardman Operation Big Bear 15:19, 2 September 2011 (UTC)
Please see my comment here. I'd hope we can verify them and add inline citations soon; otherwise we will have to move that content to talk. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 01:20, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
Since the war was almost over and Germany was about to surrender in a few days, shouldn't the result be more something like "Strategically indecisive"? It seems both sides overexaggerated the impact of this battle for propaganda purposes. Nobody won anything here. The Germans took a meaningless strip of land which they hold for the last days of the war. The Poles/Soviets won even less, in fact i fail to see anything they won at all, since the "victory claim" seems to be entirly based on the assumption that the Germans wanted and were about to break into Berlin, which seems to be clearly out of reality. StoneProphet ( talk) 21:19, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
(back to left) From Das Deutsche Reich und der Zweite Weltkrieg, Volume 10/1, p. 649.
The southern group led another successful counterattack at Bautzen that mainly struck the Polish 2nd Army. It did not alter the outcome of Konev's offensive.
Translation is mine. W. B. Wilson ( talk) 20:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)
I dont want you to take anything out. I only argue because of this "statements were contradictory whatever", mainly in the result box, as this looks strange. I can add a sentence about the "German view" (in the historiography section) if you want. StoneProphet ( talk) 05:52, 19 November 2011 (UTC)
Suggest the passage German forces were composed of elements of the remnants of Army Group Centre (in particular, elements of the 4th Panzer and 17th armies). For the battle, according to Polish general and military historian, Stanisław Komornicki, the Germans had two armoured divisions, a mechanized division and an infantry division. Wawer and Solak name more divisions (or their elements), including the 20th and 21st Panzer Divisions, 2nd and 10th SS Panzer Divisions, 1. Fallschirm-Panzer-Division "Hermann Göring", the 2. Fallschirm-Panzergrenadier-Division "Hermann Göring", the Panzergrenadier Division Brandenburg and the 600th Infantry Division (of the Russian Liberation Army) - around 50,000 men. be presented as:
German forces were composed of elements of the 4th Panzer Army and commanded by the headquarters for the Grossdeutschland and 57th Armoured Corps. For the battle, the Germans had two armoured divisions (the 20th and Hermann Goering Divisions), two mechanized divisions (the Brandenburg and Hermann Goering 2 Divisions), an infantry division (the 17th) as well as an infantry division battle group (the remnants of the 545th Volksgrenadier Division). This force counted some 50,000 soldiers, 300 tanks, and 600 guns. The supply train of the 10th SS Armoured Division was also present near Bautzen.
The reference for this description is Grzelak, p. 272. Note that the 17th Army was some 100 kilometers to the east of Bautzen -- not sure it was part of this battle at all. The reference for the presence of the 10th SS supply train is here - 10th SS sub-page at www.lexicon-der-wehrmacht.de. If we can settle on this description or something similar, then "note b" can be removed in its entirety. W. B. Wilson ( talk) 10:05, 20 November 2011 (UTC)
As noted in the milhist A-class review here, note b has insufficient references. Wilson, could you add them, as this is your note? Thanks! -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me 19:13, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
According at least to the German inscription on the monument depicted at the top of this article, it is a memorial not to the Polish and Russian soldiers who fell in battle, but specifically to 92 Polish and Russian citizens murdered at a specific location in the course of the battle -- one of the numerous war crimes carried out by both sides here. 50.137.239.197 ( talk) 23:17, 12 February 2014 (UTC)