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By all means, say that it has been claimed that the BM can prevent retinal detachment. However, this is not an article about risk or prevelance of retinal detachment (and this info should already be available in the article on RD). In addition, the claim that the BM can prevent RD is POV and should be qualified as such. Finally, your changes to chapter titles do not seem to add anything to the article! In the context of the article it is obvious that "natural vision improvement" refers to "the Bates method of natural vision improvement" and not some other system/program/technique, so why bother potentially messing up any internal or external links to these sections??? Famousdog ( talk) 21:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This section is seriously POV. How can CF be lost "at a cetain distance"? Fixation is central or peripheral. The retinal image is 2D. The quotes are too long - this is an encyclopedia article not a soapbox for Bates. I've also suggested some well-known visual phenomena that could explain Bates' amazing skills at making people see worse! Famousdog ( talk) 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Famousdog, I don't understand this paragraph:
Bates recommended swinging or shifting involving deliberate movements of the body with relaxed awareness of vision. It is quite unclear what Bates meant by these terms and due to the nystagmus or oculomotor reflexes, which attempt unconsciously to stabilise the retinal image, it is unlikely to be achieved.
I thought Chapter 15 of Bates' book, and in my opinion my previous rewrite, made it fairly clear what he meant by shifting and swinging. Whether he was correct in his assertions regarding such is another question. Also, what are you talking about when you say it is unlikely to be achieved? PSWG1920 ( talk) 12:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see how this link is relevant to the article. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) 2 - Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research". -- Ronz ( talk) 04:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Repeating myself: The hosting site, central-fixation.com, does not meet WP:EL as it is a site "that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research." -- Ronz ( talk) 05:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and created a Further reading section. Per WP:NPOV, I see no reason to highlight one book like it was, nor to detail why it's in public domain, nor give details about different editions. -- Ronz ( talk) 17:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I was just informed of a POV fork of this article and have nominated it for deletion here. - Jéské ( Blah v^_^v) 23:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The sources that fail WP:RS should be removed, and independent sources need to be found per WP:NPOV to show that the sub-topics are worth mentioning here. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I actually created the "Claimed success" section hoping to get help from experts with sources and details. In discussions of Bates, such as on sci.med.vision, I have seen such explanations offered by skeptics when they are confronted with claims of success with Bates. So there should be sources. PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed all the tags from this section, as it is now well-sourced, in my opinion. I also promoted it from a subsection, and demoted Aldous Huxley and Margaret Corbett. Claimed success could still be expanded to include a more detailed discussion of some of the sources and points they make, which could also shed more light on what may have actually happened with Huxley. PSWG1920 ( talk) 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Partisan divisions regarding the content of this article aside, it is simply too damn long. PSWG1920's additions especially have hugely increased the word count of this page to the point where it is totally unwieldy as an encyclopedia article. I suggest that all editors, pro- or anti-Bates, make a concerted effort to cut this article down to more manageable proportions. Famousdog ( talk) 20:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
One of the ongoing annoyances of this article (for me) is that the section about Bates' theories and treatments is devoid of criticism and all contrary evidence (of which there is much) is relegated to the 'criticism' section, which importantly follows the 'theories and treatments' section(s). I find it unlikely that an interested reader would actually get that far through the article unless they were really interested! (hence the ongoing battle over the lead paragraph) I would like to canvas the opinion of my fellow editors regarding the following proposal: Each of the sections on Bates' theories (accommodation, physiology, psychology, etc) and proposed treatments (remembering black, swinging, etc) should be followed by a subsection for criticism of that particular theory/treatment. I believe that this would assist in making the article more NPOV, and also would reduce the length of the article (see above) by eliminating the repetition of information that is made necessary by re-introducing Bates' theories in the 'criticism' section. Please let me know what you think of this idea. If anybody has any major objections I would like to give them an airing before deciding to make any changes. Famousdog ( talk) 14:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Famousdog or anyone else, do you know of a source for the claim that "clear flashes" can be explained as a contact-lens like effect of moisture on the eye? I have seen that stated in discussions, but the closest I've found to a source is Elwin Marg, whose report concluded that "flashes of clear vision" are not genuine changes in refraction, but he didn't seem to have an explanation for what they are. Or is there some other explanation offered by ophthalmology? PSWG1920 ( talk) 20:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I've asked for help from Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Bates_method in addressing the NPOV problems, which I think will help with the length concerns as well. -- Ronz ( talk) 03:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
- it is relevant to their notability;
- it is not contentious;
- it is not unduly self-serving;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it;
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
The reason for moving the paragraph about the risk of amblyopia developing in children, if their refractive errors are not fully corrected with lenses, was mainly to point out how parents who follow Bates' advice not to put their children in glasses may be risking their visual development (and by extension an eye doctor who delayed prescribing glasses to try natural methods could be held liable if amblyopia developed.) The part about the window in which amblyopia is likely to be reversed by treatment could go back into "Avoidance of conventional treatment". But is there a specific age at which it is generally considered safe to go uncorrected as far as visual development is concerned? PSWG1920 ( talk) 15:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Ronz's recent edits that link to the Wikisource version of Bates' book, since iBlindness is obviously a pro-Bates site. I suggest a concerted effort to copy Better Eyesight to Wikisource and remove the remaining references to the Central-Fixation site. However, I'm not sure I understand the massive warning now on this page... surely this article is far less POV than it was a few months ago? Why scare off potential contributors or readers? Famousdog ( talk) 13:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Several pages of Martin Gardner's chapter on Bates are available in the Google preview of his 1957 book. There are enough details that it seems like that chapter could be used as a third-party source in sections which currently lack such. Unfortunately I don't have the book, and not all the pages are available online. Does anyone here have the book and want to help with that? And is there any problem with that as a third-party source?
I also just found scholar.google.com, and entering the longer title of Bates' original book turns up some promising results. I therefore ask that we hold off on deleting any part of this article based on the lack of a third-party source until this resource has been combed. PSWG1920 ( talk) 04:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I reviewed the 5 March 2008 version, looking for WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE problems. Given the lack of third-party sources, I have these recommendations. (I've numbered the sections for reference):
-- Ronz ( talk) 03:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
This article now does consistently reference and explain the majority viewpoint, which is the reason, for example, the "Accommodation" section is so long. PSWG1920 ( talk) 21:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them— Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.
Ronz said : 5.2 "Natural Vision Improvement" Trim - most is off-topic and promotional
2 FAKE ARGUMENTS ! This paragraph is not off topic ! This paragraph explains the Bates method of today for a lot of people. Also called the bates method of NVI. Whether you like it or not. The differences between the old and updated Bates method still needs explanations. Most important updates are its explanation and teaching based on scientific facts, breathing is introduced, nutrition, accomodation according to Thomas Quackenbush not only by the extraoculair muscles. ( If there is greater aurthority advocate of the Bates method please give his definition ! ) Promotional is not an argument. This article would not even exist in wikipedia if the Bates method was not promoted and really edited by advocates of the method. I RE-ADDED Thomas Quackenbush defenition of the Bates method because it is the only one I have found ! The crurent introduction of this ariticle is also largely based on this definition. Seeyou ( talk) 20:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This would solve the problem of the article lacking enough independent sources, as well as the WP:UNDUE issues. Dlabtot ( talk) 17:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Surprise I do not agree. The Bates method of NVI is almost 100 years old and still alive. W.H. Bates has passed away. In other words they are not the same. Whether you like it or not. These are the facts. Seeyou ( talk) 18:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
>Can you provide references that support your assertion of the the contemporary notability of this subject. Yes, the Bates method of NVI as it is called is partly described in the book of Janet Goodrich and more thoroughly in Thomas Quackenbuch his book RLTS ( published in 1997 ! ). Thomas Quackenbush uses a lot of Bates authentic / original writings to explain the Batesmethod of NVI.
> Most of the references are to the writings of Bates. Yes, that is the focus & strategy of the skeptic editors. The Bates method of NVI is being neglected. For this reason I created a new article The bates method of NVI, to explain the differences between the old and bates method of today. This article has been deleted for fake arguments and not wanting to see its value.
The differences between the old and updated Bates method : Most important updates are its explanation and teaching based on scientific facts, breathing is introduced, nutrition, and accomodation-theory of Bates is not fully suppored. ( according to Thomas Quackenbush not only by the extraoculair muscles ). Note also the subject Natural Vision Improvement also direct directly to this Bates method article. Seeyou ( talk) 19:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the proposed merge. That would be a very technical solution, and if it would actually solve any problems, that just goes to show why the rules should be loosened. The Bates method goes beyond just Bates himself, although I believe the primary focus of this article should be on his work, as it is the basis of any "updated" Bates method. PSWG1920 ( talk) 00:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) I disagree with the merge. The William Bates page deals with the life and death of William Bates. This page discusses his "method of natural vision improvement" which is still (unfortunately) very much alive and revised and updated versions of which are still being flogged to unsuspecting consumers (see the See Clearly debate). Internet promotion of versions of the BM is fervent and widespread. This page supplies a well-needed antidote and source of information for net users who hear of the BM from a friend of a friend of a friend whose dog's uncle once tried it and had moderate success. I don't have any financial interest in this, just interest. The reason that the sources are not contemporary is that scientific opinion has repeatedly shown the BM to be unsupportable pseudoscience and research into it has all but stopped for that reason. Not being "contemporary" does not make the scientific findings reported here worthless or out-of-date. Scientists have simply moved on to more productive areas of inquiry. "Contemporariness" doesn't seem a particularly convincing argument for notability. Famousdog ( talk) 02:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Seeyou, I suggest you read what you write. The reason I (and Ronz) removed that section is because it is disruptive. It makes accusations of sockpuppetry that have already been proven false and targets another user and his edits specifically. The edit summaries, pardon my French, are more expected from a banshee than from a regular human.
If you want to make a case (as your current MedCab one has no merit), then post in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Seeyou - it has already met the threshold. - Jéské ( v^_^v Detarder) 17:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Initinal info :
Advocate edit.
Tempered wikipedia edit
Skeptics can ridicule the bates method without problems. The moment advocates of the Bates method make clear skeptics do not base their conclusions on factual data this information becomes hidden.
As to staring into the sun, an important part of the Bates therapy—this is positively dangerous to sight. It may cause an inflammation of the retina ("solar retinitis") resulting in permanent damage to the delicate tissue.
Seeyou ( talk) 13:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I wonder of one of you could help me. I don't seem to have the reference to the case or cases where someone's sight was in fact damaged by taking Bates's advice on sunning. I'd be really interested to read it. Many thanks. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 13:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
To a skeptic editor,
Can you explain, when you go the one of the biggest bookstores on the net today Amazon.com and you search for bates method or Natural vision improvement, you will find a bestselling book on top of the list, why is the explanation / definition of this author not in the introduction ?
Another question : Why is not ophthalmology been able to give clear detailed statements why W.H. Bates is wrong with his findings ?
If Ophthalmology should explain why bates method does not work and advocates should explain why eyesight can improve why does not this happen ? Research is expensive I find it much easier to believe advocates can not afford research than ophthalmology.
I have found a reference of ophthalmology stating something about bates his work. See :
In this reference :
Complementary, or alternative therapies are a growing part of health care in America. Americans spend an estimated $14 billion a year on alternative treatments. Mainstream medicine is recognizing a need to learn more about alternative therapies and determine their true value.
So why is the bates method of today which has been updated on breathing, teaching, explanation, nutrition been almost entirely neglected ? The true answer because we skeptics want to neglect the bates method of today also called because of its update the Bates method of NVI. Seeyou ( talk) 18:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I found another link along these lines here. PSWG1920 ( talk) 08:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Under "Other methods" I have created the subsection Modern Variants of the Bates method, which effectively tidies up a previous subsection which was recently split into two by Seeyou. I am thinking it should be promoted to its own section, and moved, not to the beginning of the article (as Seeyou did and was reverted by Jeske), but rather between " Bates' treatments" and "Claimed Success". That way the original Bates method is still covered first. In that case the section's title could be shortened to simply "Modern Variants", as the rest would be obvious. PSWG1920 ( talk) 06:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
It appears what is now the lead of the Other methods section was originally imported from the eye exercises entry almost four years ago, when the Bates method article was very short, thus merging was helpful. However, as Famousdog pointed out in the above section, it really does not make a lot of sense in this article now. So I copied it back into the eye exercises article, with some tweaks, as it seemed to be a better synopsis than previously existed there. I suggest we now delete that from this article, but keep all the subsections of "Other methods", as they are all relevant to Bates in their present forms. PSWG1920 ( talk) 07:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
First I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's " first rule to consider", which states: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." For sure, this is not a trump card, but it does show that Wikipedia's written policies are not always meant to be followed to the letter. With that in mind, I'd like to discuss the sources which have been and remain a subject of dispute on this page, taking it one at a time. Beginning with the one that was deleted here by Famousdog and previously by Ronz. It was used to reference the stance of Bates method teachers regarding the use of contact lenses in relation to the Bates method, which is clearly stated as an opinion in the Wikipedia article (i.e. "from a Bates perspective".) Moreover, this article is about the Bates method. Sure, visioneducators.org is not a "reliable source", but reading WP:RS and WP:V, there are times when questionable sources can be used. What is the practical problem here? And if you think the source in question is valid for this situation, please speak up as well. PSWG1920 ( talk) 04:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Now I'd like to discuss the sources which were deleted here. Visionsofjoy and iblindness were being used to reference the opinions of current Bates method advocates regarding Bates' theory of accommodation. I see nothing wrong with questionable sources being used in this way. Anyone else? PSWG1920 ( talk) 23:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe Visions of Joy is a valid source here, although I'm not sure about the way Seeyou phrased the reference. However, the See Clearly Method was often mentioned in connection with Bates, as the Washington Post and Quackwatch links show. So what Bates method teachers have to say about the See Clearly Method is very relevant here. Again, this can be stated only as an opinion. PSWG1920 ( talk) 08:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Organizations and individuals that promote what are widely agreed to be fringe theories (that is, views held by a small minority, in direct contrast with the mainstream view in their field), such as revisionist history or pseudoscience) should only be used as sources about themselves or, if correctly attributed as being such, to summarize the views of the proponents of that subject.
Would this be okay to reference the first sentence of the Claimed success section? I realize now that the "testimonial" references I previously added were unduly self-serving, as they were based on the specific programs the sites were advertising. However, the "case histories" on seeing.org are more general, don't appear to be snippeted, and aren't all about success either. It would essentially be a reference about itself and nothing more. The section now has several independent sources, so that's not a concern. PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not agree with the current name of the paragraph Modern Variants. Modern Bates method or natural vision improvement, would be much better. The fact the bates method is still alive and kicking must be noted it is a fact !
I have said this before when the public looks in one of the biggest bookstores on the worldwideweb Amazon.com and they search for bates method or natural vision improvement, they will find one book which is very dominant in the list. A bit hard to neglect I think. Even harder to neglect when you read the reviews. Seeyou ( talk) 16:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Variant suggest it is still quite the same. Modern Bates method has still it's basis in the original bates method. Many many quotes of Bates original writings. But it has also become very extended. ( 521 large pages versus 315 small pages ) When you look at the dominant literature. That is why variant is in my opinion to weak. Seeyou ( talk) 20:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It is not objectively correct to call the Goodrich/Quackenbush approach the "Bates method", regardless of how they state it. I've attempted to organize the "Modern variants" section to show the difference between the original Bates method, the Goodrich/Quackenbush method of "Natural Vision Improvement", and the See Clearly Method. Those are three different things. PSWG1920 ( talk) 22:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the sentence deleted here, I can see how that reference would be improper in an article generally about Huxley, but this article is about the Bates method. Could it be restated in such a manner which would be acceptable? For instance, what if we simply removed "it should be noted that" and/or "which is consistent with his belief that refraction is variable"? PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Initial paragraph :
Scientific Research by ophthalmology on visual training for refractive errrors resulted concludes : There is level I evidence that visual training for control of accommodation has no effect on myopia. In other studies (level II/III evidence), an improvement in subjective visual acuity for patients with myopia who have undertaken visual training has been shown but no corresponding physiological cause for the improvement has been demonstrated.
In 1946, Woods reported results of an optometric training technique in 103 myopic patients, of whom 30 (29%) showed a small improvement in VA, 31 (30%) showed inconsistent improvements in VA, 32 (31%) had no change, and 10 (9%) had a decrease in VA. Seventeen of the 61 patients who demonstrated improved VA returned for an examination 5 months after the training was completed. Two of these patients had maintained the improvement in VA; the other 15 patients had not maintained the improvement. Of the 103 patients, 67 received noncycloplegic refraction after the training was completed; no change in refraction was noted.
Despite these the negative result, this report also mentions :
Complementary, or alternative therapies are a growing part of health care in America. Americans spend an estimated $14 billion a year on alternative treatments. Mainstream medicine is recognizing a need to learn more about alternative therapies and determine their true value. Most medical schools in the United States offer courses in alternative therapies. The editors of the Journal of the American Medical Association announced that publishing research on alternative therapies will be one of its priorities. . [1]
Changed paragraph :
A review of research on visual training for refractive errors by the American Academy of Ophthalmology (AAO) concluded that there is "level I evidence" (from randomized controlled trials) "that visual training for control of accommodation has no effect on myopia." Other studies have shown weaker (level II/III) evidence of improvements in subjective visual acuity (but not objectively measured acuity) for patients with myopia who have undertaken visual training. No corresponding physiological cause for the observed improvements has been demonstrated and one study showed that these improvements were not maintained at a 5-month follow-up. [1]
The AAO report states that "mainstream medicine is recognizing a need to learn more about alternative therapies and determine their true value." However, they also conclude that "the Academy believes that complementary therapies should be evaluated similarly to traditional medicine: evidence of safety, efficacy, and effectiveness should be demonstrated." [1]
I do not know when you read this paragraph how UNIQUE and rare it is to read this info. Ophthalmology reports positive results about improving eyesight naturally !!! One of the issues is in this article is whether or not eyesight can improve naturally or not. The testimonials by pro Bates / NVI sites are constantly ignored because they are reported by unreliable sources. That is an argument. The moment a reliable source like ophthalmology reports a pro bates method / NVI result it’s details are hidden in the reference.
The only argument I can think of is that ophthalmology does not want to public to start asking questions about this subject. Some people reading this information might become critical towards ophthalmology.
The text : No corresponding physiological cause for the observed improvements has been demonstrated and one study showed that these improvements were not maintained at a 5-month follow-up. Is not valid.
The Woods - report does not report any information about the physiological cause for the observed improvements. The suggestion in the new text suggest there was not any physiological change, but this is not made clear in the report. ( Simply emphasize this fact I suggest ) In other words ophthalmology discovered something very interesting in 1946 and did nothing with these results. Why ? ( Why did n't they repeat or improve it ? ) The answer : Because natural vision improvement is not about science it is about politics. Wikipedia makes it possible for this very valuable information to reach people interested in Natural vision improvement.
I am really interested in the arguments of the other editors about the removal of the Woods 1946 research. Seeyou ( talk) 17:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding that rubbish about "lazy" eyes not being "lazy" but "tense", we have had this discussion before here. Stop recycling old arguments and filling this page up with vague cr*p. Famousdog ( talk) 13:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Myopia is emerging as a major public health issue due to its increasing prevalence and long-term pathological outcomes. Prevention must focus on limiting excessive axial elongation which is the cause of both myopic refractive error and its pathological outcomes. The increasing prevalence appears to be due to environmental changes involving near work, rather than to a genetic failure of emmetropisation. Attempts to control the progression of myopia optically have been unsuccessful; the only available preventive regime involves the use of atropine eye drops. This regime has short-term side effects, and since the site and mechanism of action of muscarinic antagonists are unclear, there are concerns about its long-term safety. Recent studies on natural STOP growth signals suggest that they are evoked by relatively brief periods of imposed myopic defocus, and can overcome strong pressures towards increased axial elongation. While STOP signals have only been successfully used in chickens to prevent excessive axial elongation, similar signals are generated in mammals and non-human primates. Further studies may define the conditions under which this approach could be used to prevent the development of myopia in humans. [2]
Bates in his Better Eyesight magazine of august 1920:
The question of whether or not errors of refraction are hereditary is one about which the medical profession has exercised itself greatly. An immense amount of work has been done for the purpose of throwing light upon it, and all the time the very plain fact that these conditions are contagious has escaped observation. For an error of refraction is simply a nervous condition, and there is nothing more contagious than nervousness. A person with myopia, hypermetropia, or astigmatism, is a person under a strain. This strain shows in his voice, his walk, his manner, and makes the people with whom he comes in contact nervous. These people then develop errors of refraction, temporarily if the influence is temporary, and permanently if the influence is permanent, as in the case of children who cannot escape from their nervous teachers and parents. [3]
This material "belongs" on the myopia page not here. The stuff about chickens has nothing to do with vision therapy or the Bates method and merely serves as a preamble for Seeyou to present Bates' beliefs regarding myopia. Good luck getting it on the myopia page, it does not belong here. Famousdog ( talk) 13:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
> why are you trying to get this into the Bates method article? Because this information is essential to know. If refraction errors are hereditary there is nothing you can do to improve or change it. > environmental changes involving near work refers to visual habits. That’s what modern bates method is about is n’t it.
> This is a common problem in chickens You sure are funny you made me laugh. The first sentence makes it perfectly clear : Myopia is emerging as a major public health. The chicken part refers to an experiment. The last sentence makes it again extra clear is about human health : Further studies may define the conditions under which this approach could be used to prevent the development of myopia in humans. Science is not interested in chickenmyopia. Chickens do not have to look in the distance. They only have got to eat for 6 weeks and then they ..
> Famousdog states : You obviously haven't read the paper, don't know anything about ontology or genetics and are simply using this as a way to crowbar Bates' opinion back into the article.
My question to famousdog : Have you ? Maybe you share it with us. That would be great ? Seeyou ( talk) 16:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Some searches with google resulted in the following !
Is Myopia Hereditary? In the answer : What you read is true: myopia is generally hereditary.
Eye_disorders_focusing_problems?OpenDocument Most people have some refractive error Refractive errors occur when there is a mismatch between the length of the eye and its optical power. These mismatches usually originate during childhood and are thought to be affected by both hereditary and environmental influences.
Myopia is Myopia is usually a hereditary condition that is detected during childhood and continues to worsen until it finally stabilizes, usually in adulthood.
Did you read a clear answer. I did not. All very POLITICAL answers. Why ? Because all the sources are not independent. Ophthalmology does not provide this information, because the public might start to think Hey if my eyesight problem is not hereditary why can’t I do something about it. Why can’t ophthalmology provide me any information in improving eyesight naturally ? The answer it is not a product you can sell to patients. A doctor, a NVI teacher can’t improve anyone's eyesight ! Only the person himself can ! And I admit it is a challenge. Wikipedia can be an independent source if the editors are independent. Are all editors of this article independent ? If they are they choose for the best reliable independent information. And that is scientific information. The reference below makes the clearest statement is scientific and appears to be the most independent and reliable.
Using natural STOP growth signals to prevent excessive axial elongation and the development of myopia. The increasing prevalence appears to be due to environmental changes involving near work, rather than to a genetic failure of emmetropisation ( = normal eye ).
Note : Another important issue for the article is also mentioned : axial elongation. This is the chronic accommodation Thomas Quackenbush mentions as the cause of myopia. See ; * http://www.naturalvisioncenter.com/books.html (Bates also believed that when the two oblique muscles are chronically tense, they elongated the eyeball to produce myopia, or nearsightedness: chronic accommodation!)
Based on these references. 3 weak ones and one strong one. Wikipedia has the chance to make a much clearer statement about the heredity of myopia which is not true according to Pubmed reference. Still millions of people believe it is hereditary. I also used to think this was true. Who should be the real source to make this clear ?
A very valid reason to mention the hereditary aspect in this article is people won’t even think of NVI just because they are so certain the cause is hereditary. So you can’t do anything about it. Ophthalmology does not make a clear statement. They are the authority. So why can’t we make it clear based on the most reliable reference found.
It is even more amazing when you read what Bates said about the hereditary aspect ! In my opinion bates has a very strong logical point. Everybody will confirm Yawning laughing are also contagious ! The same thing can be true for vision habits ! Off course I am very interested in the arguments of the other editors to remove or keep this paragraph in the article. Seeyou ( talk) 08:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
> why are you trying to get this into the Bates method article? Because this information is essential to know. If refraction errors are hereditary there is nothing you can do to improve or change it. > environmental changes involving near work refers to visual habits. That’s what modern bates method is about is n’t it.
> This is a common problem in chickens You sure are funny you made me laugh. The first sentence makes it perfectly clear : Myopia is emerging as a major public health issue. The chicken part refers to an succefully used experiment. The last sentence makes it again extra clear is about human health : Further studies may define the conditions under which this approach could be used to prevent the development of myopia in humans. Science is not interested in chickenmyopia. Chickens do not have to look in the distance. They only have got to eat for 6 weeks and then they ....
> You obviously haven't read the paper, don't know anything about ontology or genetics and are simply using this as a way to crowbar Bates' opinion back into the article. Have you ? Maybe you share it with us. That would be great ? Seeyou ( talk) 16:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
He Psst, If the reference is about chickens and you know it is. Why haven;t you removed it yet from the myopia article. It is invalid. Can you attach the document to this article. I want to check it just to be absulutly sure. And thank you for making me laugh. your friend Seeyou ( talk) 19:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
If you like to be objective ! Read chapter 4 and the rest of this link :
Seeyou ( talk) 19:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I am very interested in the arguments of other editors about addding this paragraph in the article. In my opinion this is very Important interesting information and it is connected to a very interesting theory of Bates. Is the problem located in our cells or did we copy our parents habits attitudes etc. It is not made clear by ophthalmology it is made clear by SCIENCE it is not located in our cells. See also :
And format your posts so it's clear when you're quoting someone, and make sure that you're responses are differentiated from what you're quoting. I find the non-descriptive titles that some editors insist upon as uncivil and improper. This is an article talk page, not a soapbox. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Seeyou ( talk) 21:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Read not 1 in WP:SOAP: Note 1 : Wikipedia pages may not be used for advocacy unrelated to Wikipedia, but pages in the Wikipedia namespace may be used to advocate for specific viewpoints regarding the improvement or organization of Wikipedia itself. So essays, portals, project pages, etc. are part of what Wikipedia is. The facts can not help they are promotive. Can they ? Seeyou ( talk) 05:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reinstated references to four books in the "Further reading" section. I originally put these in a week or so ago, then Ronz removed them on 4th May with the reason: (→Further reading: yes, section looking promotional - lets focus on references). I'm not sure what he means by "promotional" - They are published books in which I have no organisational or financial interest. They are promoting the Bates method, as their titles clearly imply. Two of the (many) things wrong with this article are
Two of these books, the Mansfield and the Barnes, redress both these imbalances, since both are fairly recent, and Mansfield is British and Barnes is Australian. In any case I can't see any objection to having a fairly comprehensive list of books describing their authors' view of the method, so long as it's clearly labelled as such. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 22:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
See the links below :
I do not think it is logical to list books. Valuable information in books should be mentioned in the article with a reference to the book. The right Books are then covered in the way they should. Seeyou ( talk) 09:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Go to the largest selling internet bookstore on the web. According to my sources this is Amazon.com. If I am wrong please correct me Do a search on bates method. Which book pops up with the number one ranking ( date 1997 ? ). Not Bates original revised book of 1920. The number one book is ranked with position 4977. Bates revised book is ranked position 13825.
The book at the first position also explains fusion with very clear pictures. Bates original book does not explain this at all. Not even with words.
( For the people who do not understand fusion. Fusion is the merging of the brain of 2 images. The image of the left eye with the image of the right eye at the point of central fixation. ) On the back cover of 1997 book you will read In this .. presentation of the Bates method. So it is called the Bates method. It is not called modern variant as in our wikipedia article.
May be it is an idea to list Modern Bates method ( T. Quackenbush ) rank 4977, See clearly method rank 23871, Natural vision improvement ( J. Goodrich ) rank 852891. Listed in three different paragraphs since they differ to much when you compare them with each other.
The presentation of the three is then covered based on factual data. And that is important when you really want to improve this article from a neutral point of view. Seeyou ( talk) 16:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Question : Why do you overrule the first description by calling it a variant and not as the back cover mentioned Bates method ?
Relearning to see constantly refers to bates original writings and introduces new tools and points of view, scientific facts to improve the explanation about subjects Bates also spoke of. For example the beadgame to explain fusion. Or lazy eye versus tensed eye. It is a continuation of the original Bates method only better explained and clarified ! According to 3 sources, the back cover, the author, and amazon the book describes the bates method of today.
The author in the introduction of the Better Eyesight magazines : Many people found both books difficult to understand both books ( original and revised version of Bates his book ). Clarification of the Bates Method was a major motivation for writing relearning to See (1997).
The bookstore amazon makes very clear the Bates method of today is not described by Bates himself anymore. Do a search on Bates method. Bates original revised book is at position 2. The Bates method is described in a recent new book published in 1997. See the ranking of the book as mentioned position 4977 versus 7382.
By listing the bates method of today in paragraph Modern variants you do not provide objective facts. You suggest something. Variant of what ? ( not clear is it ? off course I think/ know what you mean, but why can’t you say it ).You suggest the methods are just adjusted versions of the original Bates method. The Bates method has developed and modernised itself since bates original writings as explained above. There is more and clearer information available since Bates time. And very important it still called Bates method. You can not ignore this. You can’t say Modern variants of the bates method. And then list the Bates method of today. In other words you hide essential information. The facts can’t help they are promotive as said before ! Fact show there is still a bates method and it is not exactly the same as bates original one. Not the same does not make it a variant because essential scientific info is added. Clarified Bates method would in my opinion be much closer to the truth, but that is also not possible.
Variant, Modern and clarified is suggestive and non-objective language.Variant is non-objective language ( When can you call something a variant ? ) Modern is also non objective. ( When can you call something modern ? Idem for clarified ) So in order to be really objective. You will have to present a paragraph describing the Bates method of today, a paragraph describing the See clearly method and one describing Natural vision improvement. Seeyou ( talk) 15:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
By all means, say that it has been claimed that the BM can prevent retinal detachment. However, this is not an article about risk or prevelance of retinal detachment (and this info should already be available in the article on RD). In addition, the claim that the BM can prevent RD is POV and should be qualified as such. Finally, your changes to chapter titles do not seem to add anything to the article! In the context of the article it is obvious that "natural vision improvement" refers to "the Bates method of natural vision improvement" and not some other system/program/technique, so why bother potentially messing up any internal or external links to these sections??? Famousdog ( talk) 21:20, 22 January 2008 (UTC)
This section is seriously POV. How can CF be lost "at a cetain distance"? Fixation is central or peripheral. The retinal image is 2D. The quotes are too long - this is an encyclopedia article not a soapbox for Bates. I've also suggested some well-known visual phenomena that could explain Bates' amazing skills at making people see worse! Famousdog ( talk) 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Famousdog, I don't understand this paragraph:
Bates recommended swinging or shifting involving deliberate movements of the body with relaxed awareness of vision. It is quite unclear what Bates meant by these terms and due to the nystagmus or oculomotor reflexes, which attempt unconsciously to stabilise the retinal image, it is unlikely to be achieved.
I thought Chapter 15 of Bates' book, and in my opinion my previous rewrite, made it fairly clear what he meant by shifting and swinging. Whether he was correct in his assertions regarding such is another question. Also, what are you talking about when you say it is unlikely to be achieved? PSWG1920 ( talk) 12:43, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I fail to see how this link is relevant to the article. -- Ronz ( talk) 01:17, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) 2 - Any site that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research. See Reliable sources for explanations of the terms "factually inaccurate material" or "unverifiable research". -- Ronz ( talk) 04:46, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Repeating myself: The hosting site, central-fixation.com, does not meet WP:EL as it is a site "that misleads the reader by use of factually inaccurate material or unverifiable research." -- Ronz ( talk) 05:31, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and created a Further reading section. Per WP:NPOV, I see no reason to highlight one book like it was, nor to detail why it's in public domain, nor give details about different editions. -- Ronz ( talk) 17:40, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
I was just informed of a POV fork of this article and have nominated it for deletion here. - Jéské ( Blah v^_^v) 23:18, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The sources that fail WP:RS should be removed, and independent sources need to be found per WP:NPOV to show that the sub-topics are worth mentioning here. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:03, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I actually created the "Claimed success" section hoping to get help from experts with sources and details. In discussions of Bates, such as on sci.med.vision, I have seen such explanations offered by skeptics when they are confronted with claims of success with Bates. So there should be sources. PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:26, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
I removed all the tags from this section, as it is now well-sourced, in my opinion. I also promoted it from a subsection, and demoted Aldous Huxley and Margaret Corbett. Claimed success could still be expanded to include a more detailed discussion of some of the sources and points they make, which could also shed more light on what may have actually happened with Huxley. PSWG1920 ( talk) 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Partisan divisions regarding the content of this article aside, it is simply too damn long. PSWG1920's additions especially have hugely increased the word count of this page to the point where it is totally unwieldy as an encyclopedia article. I suggest that all editors, pro- or anti-Bates, make a concerted effort to cut this article down to more manageable proportions. Famousdog ( talk) 20:58, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
One of the ongoing annoyances of this article (for me) is that the section about Bates' theories and treatments is devoid of criticism and all contrary evidence (of which there is much) is relegated to the 'criticism' section, which importantly follows the 'theories and treatments' section(s). I find it unlikely that an interested reader would actually get that far through the article unless they were really interested! (hence the ongoing battle over the lead paragraph) I would like to canvas the opinion of my fellow editors regarding the following proposal: Each of the sections on Bates' theories (accommodation, physiology, psychology, etc) and proposed treatments (remembering black, swinging, etc) should be followed by a subsection for criticism of that particular theory/treatment. I believe that this would assist in making the article more NPOV, and also would reduce the length of the article (see above) by eliminating the repetition of information that is made necessary by re-introducing Bates' theories in the 'criticism' section. Please let me know what you think of this idea. If anybody has any major objections I would like to give them an airing before deciding to make any changes. Famousdog ( talk) 14:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Famousdog or anyone else, do you know of a source for the claim that "clear flashes" can be explained as a contact-lens like effect of moisture on the eye? I have seen that stated in discussions, but the closest I've found to a source is Elwin Marg, whose report concluded that "flashes of clear vision" are not genuine changes in refraction, but he didn't seem to have an explanation for what they are. Or is there some other explanation offered by ophthalmology? PSWG1920 ( talk) 20:18, 13 February 2008 (UTC)
I've asked for help from Wikipedia:Fringe_theories/Noticeboard#Bates_method in addressing the NPOV problems, which I think will help with the length concerns as well. -- Ronz ( talk) 03:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Material from self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources in articles about themselves, so long as:
- it is relevant to their notability;
- it is not contentious;
- it is not unduly self-serving;
- it does not involve claims about third parties;
- it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject;
- there is no reasonable doubt as to who authored it;
- the article is not based primarily on such sources.
The reason for moving the paragraph about the risk of amblyopia developing in children, if their refractive errors are not fully corrected with lenses, was mainly to point out how parents who follow Bates' advice not to put their children in glasses may be risking their visual development (and by extension an eye doctor who delayed prescribing glasses to try natural methods could be held liable if amblyopia developed.) The part about the window in which amblyopia is likely to be reversed by treatment could go back into "Avoidance of conventional treatment". But is there a specific age at which it is generally considered safe to go uncorrected as far as visual development is concerned? PSWG1920 ( talk) 15:47, 19 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm in agreement with Ronz's recent edits that link to the Wikisource version of Bates' book, since iBlindness is obviously a pro-Bates site. I suggest a concerted effort to copy Better Eyesight to Wikisource and remove the remaining references to the Central-Fixation site. However, I'm not sure I understand the massive warning now on this page... surely this article is far less POV than it was a few months ago? Why scare off potential contributors or readers? Famousdog ( talk) 13:56, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Several pages of Martin Gardner's chapter on Bates are available in the Google preview of his 1957 book. There are enough details that it seems like that chapter could be used as a third-party source in sections which currently lack such. Unfortunately I don't have the book, and not all the pages are available online. Does anyone here have the book and want to help with that? And is there any problem with that as a third-party source?
I also just found scholar.google.com, and entering the longer title of Bates' original book turns up some promising results. I therefore ask that we hold off on deleting any part of this article based on the lack of a third-party source until this resource has been combed. PSWG1920 ( talk) 04:17, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
I reviewed the 5 March 2008 version, looking for WP:NPOV and WP:FRINGE problems. Given the lack of third-party sources, I have these recommendations. (I've numbered the sections for reference):
-- Ronz ( talk) 03:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
This article now does consistently reference and explain the majority viewpoint, which is the reason, for example, the "Accommodation" section is so long. PSWG1920 ( talk) 21:14, 11 March 2008 (UTC)Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them— Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.
Ronz said : 5.2 "Natural Vision Improvement" Trim - most is off-topic and promotional
2 FAKE ARGUMENTS ! This paragraph is not off topic ! This paragraph explains the Bates method of today for a lot of people. Also called the bates method of NVI. Whether you like it or not. The differences between the old and updated Bates method still needs explanations. Most important updates are its explanation and teaching based on scientific facts, breathing is introduced, nutrition, accomodation according to Thomas Quackenbush not only by the extraoculair muscles. ( If there is greater aurthority advocate of the Bates method please give his definition ! ) Promotional is not an argument. This article would not even exist in wikipedia if the Bates method was not promoted and really edited by advocates of the method. I RE-ADDED Thomas Quackenbush defenition of the Bates method because it is the only one I have found ! The crurent introduction of this ariticle is also largely based on this definition. Seeyou ( talk) 20:53, 21 March 2008 (UTC)
This would solve the problem of the article lacking enough independent sources, as well as the WP:UNDUE issues. Dlabtot ( talk) 17:50, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
Surprise I do not agree. The Bates method of NVI is almost 100 years old and still alive. W.H. Bates has passed away. In other words they are not the same. Whether you like it or not. These are the facts. Seeyou ( talk) 18:05, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
>Can you provide references that support your assertion of the the contemporary notability of this subject. Yes, the Bates method of NVI as it is called is partly described in the book of Janet Goodrich and more thoroughly in Thomas Quackenbuch his book RLTS ( published in 1997 ! ). Thomas Quackenbush uses a lot of Bates authentic / original writings to explain the Batesmethod of NVI.
> Most of the references are to the writings of Bates. Yes, that is the focus & strategy of the skeptic editors. The Bates method of NVI is being neglected. For this reason I created a new article The bates method of NVI, to explain the differences between the old and bates method of today. This article has been deleted for fake arguments and not wanting to see its value.
The differences between the old and updated Bates method : Most important updates are its explanation and teaching based on scientific facts, breathing is introduced, nutrition, and accomodation-theory of Bates is not fully suppored. ( according to Thomas Quackenbush not only by the extraoculair muscles ). Note also the subject Natural Vision Improvement also direct directly to this Bates method article. Seeyou ( talk) 19:29, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
I disagree with the proposed merge. That would be a very technical solution, and if it would actually solve any problems, that just goes to show why the rules should be loosened. The Bates method goes beyond just Bates himself, although I believe the primary focus of this article should be on his work, as it is the basis of any "updated" Bates method. PSWG1920 ( talk) 00:11, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
(unindent) I disagree with the merge. The William Bates page deals with the life and death of William Bates. This page discusses his "method of natural vision improvement" which is still (unfortunately) very much alive and revised and updated versions of which are still being flogged to unsuspecting consumers (see the See Clearly debate). Internet promotion of versions of the BM is fervent and widespread. This page supplies a well-needed antidote and source of information for net users who hear of the BM from a friend of a friend of a friend whose dog's uncle once tried it and had moderate success. I don't have any financial interest in this, just interest. The reason that the sources are not contemporary is that scientific opinion has repeatedly shown the BM to be unsupportable pseudoscience and research into it has all but stopped for that reason. Not being "contemporary" does not make the scientific findings reported here worthless or out-of-date. Scientists have simply moved on to more productive areas of inquiry. "Contemporariness" doesn't seem a particularly convincing argument for notability. Famousdog ( talk) 02:21, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Seeyou, I suggest you read what you write. The reason I (and Ronz) removed that section is because it is disruptive. It makes accusations of sockpuppetry that have already been proven false and targets another user and his edits specifically. The edit summaries, pardon my French, are more expected from a banshee than from a regular human.
If you want to make a case (as your current MedCab one has no merit), then post in Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Seeyou - it has already met the threshold. - Jéské ( v^_^v Detarder) 17:30, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Initinal info :
Advocate edit.
Tempered wikipedia edit
Skeptics can ridicule the bates method without problems. The moment advocates of the Bates method make clear skeptics do not base their conclusions on factual data this information becomes hidden.
As to staring into the sun, an important part of the Bates therapy—this is positively dangerous to sight. It may cause an inflammation of the retina ("solar retinitis") resulting in permanent damage to the delicate tissue.
Seeyou ( talk) 13:56, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I wonder of one of you could help me. I don't seem to have the reference to the case or cases where someone's sight was in fact damaged by taking Bates's advice on sunning. I'd be really interested to read it. Many thanks. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 13:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
To a skeptic editor,
Can you explain, when you go the one of the biggest bookstores on the net today Amazon.com and you search for bates method or Natural vision improvement, you will find a bestselling book on top of the list, why is the explanation / definition of this author not in the introduction ?
Another question : Why is not ophthalmology been able to give clear detailed statements why W.H. Bates is wrong with his findings ?
If Ophthalmology should explain why bates method does not work and advocates should explain why eyesight can improve why does not this happen ? Research is expensive I find it much easier to believe advocates can not afford research than ophthalmology.
I have found a reference of ophthalmology stating something about bates his work. See :
In this reference :
Complementary, or alternative therapies are a growing part of health care in America. Americans spend an estimated $14 billion a year on alternative treatments. Mainstream medicine is recognizing a need to learn more about alternative therapies and determine their true value.
So why is the bates method of today which has been updated on breathing, teaching, explanation, nutrition been almost entirely neglected ? The true answer because we skeptics want to neglect the bates method of today also called because of its update the Bates method of NVI. Seeyou ( talk) 18:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
I found another link along these lines here. PSWG1920 ( talk) 08:20, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Under "Other methods" I have created the subsection Modern Variants of the Bates method, which effectively tidies up a previous subsection which was recently split into two by Seeyou. I am thinking it should be promoted to its own section, and moved, not to the beginning of the article (as Seeyou did and was reverted by Jeske), but rather between " Bates' treatments" and "Claimed Success". That way the original Bates method is still covered first. In that case the section's title could be shortened to simply "Modern Variants", as the rest would be obvious. PSWG1920 ( talk) 06:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
It appears what is now the lead of the Other methods section was originally imported from the eye exercises entry almost four years ago, when the Bates method article was very short, thus merging was helpful. However, as Famousdog pointed out in the above section, it really does not make a lot of sense in this article now. So I copied it back into the eye exercises article, with some tweaks, as it seemed to be a better synopsis than previously existed there. I suggest we now delete that from this article, but keep all the subsections of "Other methods", as they are all relevant to Bates in their present forms. PSWG1920 ( talk) 07:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
First I would like to draw attention to Wikipedia's " first rule to consider", which states: "If a rule prevents you from improving or maintaining Wikipedia, ignore it." For sure, this is not a trump card, but it does show that Wikipedia's written policies are not always meant to be followed to the letter. With that in mind, I'd like to discuss the sources which have been and remain a subject of dispute on this page, taking it one at a time. Beginning with the one that was deleted here by Famousdog and previously by Ronz. It was used to reference the stance of Bates method teachers regarding the use of contact lenses in relation to the Bates method, which is clearly stated as an opinion in the Wikipedia article (i.e. "from a Bates perspective".) Moreover, this article is about the Bates method. Sure, visioneducators.org is not a "reliable source", but reading WP:RS and WP:V, there are times when questionable sources can be used. What is the practical problem here? And if you think the source in question is valid for this situation, please speak up as well. PSWG1920 ( talk) 04:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Now I'd like to discuss the sources which were deleted here. Visionsofjoy and iblindness were being used to reference the opinions of current Bates method advocates regarding Bates' theory of accommodation. I see nothing wrong with questionable sources being used in this way. Anyone else? PSWG1920 ( talk) 23:51, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
I believe Visions of Joy is a valid source here, although I'm not sure about the way Seeyou phrased the reference. However, the See Clearly Method was often mentioned in connection with Bates, as the Washington Post and Quackwatch links show. So what Bates method teachers have to say about the See Clearly Method is very relevant here. Again, this can be stated only as an opinion. PSWG1920 ( talk) 08:35, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Organizations and individuals that promote what are widely agreed to be fringe theories (that is, views held by a small minority, in direct contrast with the mainstream view in their field), such as revisionist history or pseudoscience) should only be used as sources about themselves or, if correctly attributed as being such, to summarize the views of the proponents of that subject.
Would this be okay to reference the first sentence of the Claimed success section? I realize now that the "testimonial" references I previously added were unduly self-serving, as they were based on the specific programs the sites were advertising. However, the "case histories" on seeing.org are more general, don't appear to be snippeted, and aren't all about success either. It would essentially be a reference about itself and nothing more. The section now has several independent sources, so that's not a concern. PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:21, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I do not agree with the current name of the paragraph Modern Variants. Modern Bates method or natural vision improvement, would be much better. The fact the bates method is still alive and kicking must be noted it is a fact !
I have said this before when the public looks in one of the biggest bookstores on the worldwideweb Amazon.com and they search for bates method or natural vision improvement, they will find one book which is very dominant in the list. A bit hard to neglect I think. Even harder to neglect when you read the reviews. Seeyou ( talk) 16:45, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Variant suggest it is still quite the same. Modern Bates method has still it's basis in the original bates method. Many many quotes of Bates original writings. But it has also become very extended. ( 521 large pages versus 315 small pages ) When you look at the dominant literature. That is why variant is in my opinion to weak. Seeyou ( talk) 20:17, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
It is not objectively correct to call the Goodrich/Quackenbush approach the "Bates method", regardless of how they state it. I've attempted to organize the "Modern variants" section to show the difference between the original Bates method, the Goodrich/Quackenbush method of "Natural Vision Improvement", and the See Clearly Method. Those are three different things. PSWG1920 ( talk) 22:08, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding the sentence deleted here, I can see how that reference would be improper in an article generally about Huxley, but this article is about the Bates method. Could it be restated in such a manner which would be acceptable? For instance, what if we simply removed "it should be noted that" and/or "which is consistent with his belief that refraction is variable"? PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:15, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
Initial paragraph :
Scientific Research by ophthalmology on visual training for refractive errrors resulted concludes : There is level I evidence that visual training for control of accommodation has no effect on myopia. In other studies (level II/III evidence), an improvement in subjective visual acuity for patients with myopia who have undertaken visual training has been shown but no corresponding physiological cause for the improvement has been demonstrated.
In 1946, Woods reported results of an optometric training technique in 103 myopic patients, of whom 30 (29%) showed a small improvement in VA, 31 (30%) showed inconsistent improvements in VA, 32 (31%) had no change, and 10 (9%) had a decrease in VA. Seventeen of the 61 patients who demonstrated improved VA returned for an examination 5 months after the training was completed. Two of these patients had maintained the improvement in VA; the other 15 patients had not maintained the improvement. Of the 103 patients, 67 received noncycloplegic refraction after the training was completed; no change in refraction was noted.
Despite these the negative result, this report also mentions :
Complementary, or alternative therapies are a growing part of health care in America. Americans spend an estimated $14 billion a year on alternative treatments. Mainstream medicine is recognizing a need to learn more about alternative therapies and determine their true value. Most medical schools in the United States offer courses in alternative therapies. The editors of the Journal of the American Medical Association announced that publishing research on alternative therapies will be one of its priorities. . [1]
Changed paragraph :
A review of research on visual training for refractive errors by the American Academy of Ophthalmology (AAO) concluded that there is "level I evidence" (from randomized controlled trials) "that visual training for control of accommodation has no effect on myopia." Other studies have shown weaker (level II/III) evidence of improvements in subjective visual acuity (but not objectively measured acuity) for patients with myopia who have undertaken visual training. No corresponding physiological cause for the observed improvements has been demonstrated and one study showed that these improvements were not maintained at a 5-month follow-up. [1]
The AAO report states that "mainstream medicine is recognizing a need to learn more about alternative therapies and determine their true value." However, they also conclude that "the Academy believes that complementary therapies should be evaluated similarly to traditional medicine: evidence of safety, efficacy, and effectiveness should be demonstrated." [1]
I do not know when you read this paragraph how UNIQUE and rare it is to read this info. Ophthalmology reports positive results about improving eyesight naturally !!! One of the issues is in this article is whether or not eyesight can improve naturally or not. The testimonials by pro Bates / NVI sites are constantly ignored because they are reported by unreliable sources. That is an argument. The moment a reliable source like ophthalmology reports a pro bates method / NVI result it’s details are hidden in the reference.
The only argument I can think of is that ophthalmology does not want to public to start asking questions about this subject. Some people reading this information might become critical towards ophthalmology.
The text : No corresponding physiological cause for the observed improvements has been demonstrated and one study showed that these improvements were not maintained at a 5-month follow-up. Is not valid.
The Woods - report does not report any information about the physiological cause for the observed improvements. The suggestion in the new text suggest there was not any physiological change, but this is not made clear in the report. ( Simply emphasize this fact I suggest ) In other words ophthalmology discovered something very interesting in 1946 and did nothing with these results. Why ? ( Why did n't they repeat or improve it ? ) The answer : Because natural vision improvement is not about science it is about politics. Wikipedia makes it possible for this very valuable information to reach people interested in Natural vision improvement.
I am really interested in the arguments of the other editors about the removal of the Woods 1946 research. Seeyou ( talk) 17:42, 26 April 2008 (UTC)
Regarding that rubbish about "lazy" eyes not being "lazy" but "tense", we have had this discussion before here. Stop recycling old arguments and filling this page up with vague cr*p. Famousdog ( talk) 13:20, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Myopia is emerging as a major public health issue due to its increasing prevalence and long-term pathological outcomes. Prevention must focus on limiting excessive axial elongation which is the cause of both myopic refractive error and its pathological outcomes. The increasing prevalence appears to be due to environmental changes involving near work, rather than to a genetic failure of emmetropisation. Attempts to control the progression of myopia optically have been unsuccessful; the only available preventive regime involves the use of atropine eye drops. This regime has short-term side effects, and since the site and mechanism of action of muscarinic antagonists are unclear, there are concerns about its long-term safety. Recent studies on natural STOP growth signals suggest that they are evoked by relatively brief periods of imposed myopic defocus, and can overcome strong pressures towards increased axial elongation. While STOP signals have only been successfully used in chickens to prevent excessive axial elongation, similar signals are generated in mammals and non-human primates. Further studies may define the conditions under which this approach could be used to prevent the development of myopia in humans. [2]
Bates in his Better Eyesight magazine of august 1920:
The question of whether or not errors of refraction are hereditary is one about which the medical profession has exercised itself greatly. An immense amount of work has been done for the purpose of throwing light upon it, and all the time the very plain fact that these conditions are contagious has escaped observation. For an error of refraction is simply a nervous condition, and there is nothing more contagious than nervousness. A person with myopia, hypermetropia, or astigmatism, is a person under a strain. This strain shows in his voice, his walk, his manner, and makes the people with whom he comes in contact nervous. These people then develop errors of refraction, temporarily if the influence is temporary, and permanently if the influence is permanent, as in the case of children who cannot escape from their nervous teachers and parents. [3]
This material "belongs" on the myopia page not here. The stuff about chickens has nothing to do with vision therapy or the Bates method and merely serves as a preamble for Seeyou to present Bates' beliefs regarding myopia. Good luck getting it on the myopia page, it does not belong here. Famousdog ( talk) 13:47, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
> why are you trying to get this into the Bates method article? Because this information is essential to know. If refraction errors are hereditary there is nothing you can do to improve or change it. > environmental changes involving near work refers to visual habits. That’s what modern bates method is about is n’t it.
> This is a common problem in chickens You sure are funny you made me laugh. The first sentence makes it perfectly clear : Myopia is emerging as a major public health. The chicken part refers to an experiment. The last sentence makes it again extra clear is about human health : Further studies may define the conditions under which this approach could be used to prevent the development of myopia in humans. Science is not interested in chickenmyopia. Chickens do not have to look in the distance. They only have got to eat for 6 weeks and then they ..
> Famousdog states : You obviously haven't read the paper, don't know anything about ontology or genetics and are simply using this as a way to crowbar Bates' opinion back into the article.
My question to famousdog : Have you ? Maybe you share it with us. That would be great ? Seeyou ( talk) 16:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Some searches with google resulted in the following !
Is Myopia Hereditary? In the answer : What you read is true: myopia is generally hereditary.
Eye_disorders_focusing_problems?OpenDocument Most people have some refractive error Refractive errors occur when there is a mismatch between the length of the eye and its optical power. These mismatches usually originate during childhood and are thought to be affected by both hereditary and environmental influences.
Myopia is Myopia is usually a hereditary condition that is detected during childhood and continues to worsen until it finally stabilizes, usually in adulthood.
Did you read a clear answer. I did not. All very POLITICAL answers. Why ? Because all the sources are not independent. Ophthalmology does not provide this information, because the public might start to think Hey if my eyesight problem is not hereditary why can’t I do something about it. Why can’t ophthalmology provide me any information in improving eyesight naturally ? The answer it is not a product you can sell to patients. A doctor, a NVI teacher can’t improve anyone's eyesight ! Only the person himself can ! And I admit it is a challenge. Wikipedia can be an independent source if the editors are independent. Are all editors of this article independent ? If they are they choose for the best reliable independent information. And that is scientific information. The reference below makes the clearest statement is scientific and appears to be the most independent and reliable.
Using natural STOP growth signals to prevent excessive axial elongation and the development of myopia. The increasing prevalence appears to be due to environmental changes involving near work, rather than to a genetic failure of emmetropisation ( = normal eye ).
Note : Another important issue for the article is also mentioned : axial elongation. This is the chronic accommodation Thomas Quackenbush mentions as the cause of myopia. See ; * http://www.naturalvisioncenter.com/books.html (Bates also believed that when the two oblique muscles are chronically tense, they elongated the eyeball to produce myopia, or nearsightedness: chronic accommodation!)
Based on these references. 3 weak ones and one strong one. Wikipedia has the chance to make a much clearer statement about the heredity of myopia which is not true according to Pubmed reference. Still millions of people believe it is hereditary. I also used to think this was true. Who should be the real source to make this clear ?
A very valid reason to mention the hereditary aspect in this article is people won’t even think of NVI just because they are so certain the cause is hereditary. So you can’t do anything about it. Ophthalmology does not make a clear statement. They are the authority. So why can’t we make it clear based on the most reliable reference found.
It is even more amazing when you read what Bates said about the hereditary aspect ! In my opinion bates has a very strong logical point. Everybody will confirm Yawning laughing are also contagious ! The same thing can be true for vision habits ! Off course I am very interested in the arguments of the other editors to remove or keep this paragraph in the article. Seeyou ( talk) 08:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
> why are you trying to get this into the Bates method article? Because this information is essential to know. If refraction errors are hereditary there is nothing you can do to improve or change it. > environmental changes involving near work refers to visual habits. That’s what modern bates method is about is n’t it.
> This is a common problem in chickens You sure are funny you made me laugh. The first sentence makes it perfectly clear : Myopia is emerging as a major public health issue. The chicken part refers to an succefully used experiment. The last sentence makes it again extra clear is about human health : Further studies may define the conditions under which this approach could be used to prevent the development of myopia in humans. Science is not interested in chickenmyopia. Chickens do not have to look in the distance. They only have got to eat for 6 weeks and then they ....
> You obviously haven't read the paper, don't know anything about ontology or genetics and are simply using this as a way to crowbar Bates' opinion back into the article. Have you ? Maybe you share it with us. That would be great ? Seeyou ( talk) 16:09, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
He Psst, If the reference is about chickens and you know it is. Why haven;t you removed it yet from the myopia article. It is invalid. Can you attach the document to this article. I want to check it just to be absulutly sure. And thank you for making me laugh. your friend Seeyou ( talk) 19:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
If you like to be objective ! Read chapter 4 and the rest of this link :
Seeyou ( talk) 19:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
I am very interested in the arguments of other editors about addding this paragraph in the article. In my opinion this is very Important interesting information and it is connected to a very interesting theory of Bates. Is the problem located in our cells or did we copy our parents habits attitudes etc. It is not made clear by ophthalmology it is made clear by SCIENCE it is not located in our cells. See also :
And format your posts so it's clear when you're quoting someone, and make sure that you're responses are differentiated from what you're quoting. I find the non-descriptive titles that some editors insist upon as uncivil and improper. This is an article talk page, not a soapbox. -- Ronz ( talk) 16:35, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Seeyou ( talk) 21:19, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Read not 1 in WP:SOAP: Note 1 : Wikipedia pages may not be used for advocacy unrelated to Wikipedia, but pages in the Wikipedia namespace may be used to advocate for specific viewpoints regarding the improvement or organization of Wikipedia itself. So essays, portals, project pages, etc. are part of what Wikipedia is. The facts can not help they are promotive. Can they ? Seeyou ( talk) 05:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reinstated references to four books in the "Further reading" section. I originally put these in a week or so ago, then Ronz removed them on 4th May with the reason: (→Further reading: yes, section looking promotional - lets focus on references). I'm not sure what he means by "promotional" - They are published books in which I have no organisational or financial interest. They are promoting the Bates method, as their titles clearly imply. Two of the (many) things wrong with this article are
Two of these books, the Mansfield and the Barnes, redress both these imbalances, since both are fairly recent, and Mansfield is British and Barnes is Australian. In any case I can't see any objection to having a fairly comprehensive list of books describing their authors' view of the method, so long as it's clearly labelled as such. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 22:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
See the links below :
I do not think it is logical to list books. Valuable information in books should be mentioned in the article with a reference to the book. The right Books are then covered in the way they should. Seeyou ( talk) 09:30, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
Go to the largest selling internet bookstore on the web. According to my sources this is Amazon.com. If I am wrong please correct me Do a search on bates method. Which book pops up with the number one ranking ( date 1997 ? ). Not Bates original revised book of 1920. The number one book is ranked with position 4977. Bates revised book is ranked position 13825.
The book at the first position also explains fusion with very clear pictures. Bates original book does not explain this at all. Not even with words.
( For the people who do not understand fusion. Fusion is the merging of the brain of 2 images. The image of the left eye with the image of the right eye at the point of central fixation. ) On the back cover of 1997 book you will read In this .. presentation of the Bates method. So it is called the Bates method. It is not called modern variant as in our wikipedia article.
May be it is an idea to list Modern Bates method ( T. Quackenbush ) rank 4977, See clearly method rank 23871, Natural vision improvement ( J. Goodrich ) rank 852891. Listed in three different paragraphs since they differ to much when you compare them with each other.
The presentation of the three is then covered based on factual data. And that is important when you really want to improve this article from a neutral point of view. Seeyou ( talk) 16:10, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Question : Why do you overrule the first description by calling it a variant and not as the back cover mentioned Bates method ?
Relearning to see constantly refers to bates original writings and introduces new tools and points of view, scientific facts to improve the explanation about subjects Bates also spoke of. For example the beadgame to explain fusion. Or lazy eye versus tensed eye. It is a continuation of the original Bates method only better explained and clarified ! According to 3 sources, the back cover, the author, and amazon the book describes the bates method of today.
The author in the introduction of the Better Eyesight magazines : Many people found both books difficult to understand both books ( original and revised version of Bates his book ). Clarification of the Bates Method was a major motivation for writing relearning to See (1997).
The bookstore amazon makes very clear the Bates method of today is not described by Bates himself anymore. Do a search on Bates method. Bates original revised book is at position 2. The Bates method is described in a recent new book published in 1997. See the ranking of the book as mentioned position 4977 versus 7382.
By listing the bates method of today in paragraph Modern variants you do not provide objective facts. You suggest something. Variant of what ? ( not clear is it ? off course I think/ know what you mean, but why can’t you say it ).You suggest the methods are just adjusted versions of the original Bates method. The Bates method has developed and modernised itself since bates original writings as explained above. There is more and clearer information available since Bates time. And very important it still called Bates method. You can not ignore this. You can’t say Modern variants of the bates method. And then list the Bates method of today. In other words you hide essential information. The facts can’t help they are promotive as said before ! Fact show there is still a bates method and it is not exactly the same as bates original one. Not the same does not make it a variant because essential scientific info is added. Clarified Bates method would in my opinion be much closer to the truth, but that is also not possible.
Variant, Modern and clarified is suggestive and non-objective language.Variant is non-objective language ( When can you call something a variant ? ) Modern is also non objective. ( When can you call something modern ? Idem for clarified ) So in order to be really objective. You will have to present a paragraph describing the Bates method of today, a paragraph describing the See clearly method and one describing Natural vision improvement. Seeyou ( talk) 15:30, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
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