This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Infobox Pseudoscience suddenly appeared on 8 February without any announcement or discussion here. I think we need to talk about whether it should be there at all, and if so, what its content should be, particularly as regards the entry "Subsequent proponents", or "Current proponents" as it was called until very recently. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 09:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I have a mental image problem with simultaneously making a mountain out of a molehill and being a straw man. Could you draw a picture to help me? I totally support your suggestion about the infobox. As for what "lots of proponents" say, could you give references? As I've often said on this page, modern BM teachers don't talk about things like axial elongation at all. They talk about natural healing and the more cultured ones about "vis medicatrix naturae". BM is a method which stands or falls solely on whether it works. In general its advocates believe that it will in time prove to have a scientific basis, but in the mean time they want to get on with helping people to see better, and are succeeding to at least some extent, even if the result is only "subjective" or the placebo effect. Nobody has a satisfactory theory of refractive error, and the BM people no longer claim to offer one except in the broadest terms, namely "strain", which you rightly have said is so vague as to be fairly meaningless. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 14:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Regarding SamuelTheGhost's edit summary that "those who think BM is pseudoscience also think all alternative medicine is pseudoscience", I don't think that's necessarily true. Some alternative medicine would likely fall under "questionable science" rather than "generally considered pseudoscience" per the arbcom case. While I don't really think the Bates method is pseudoscience, it's apparent to me that that's what it is generally considered, and the arbcom case is clear that it should be categorized that way. By extension the pseudoscience infobox is also appropriate, though it could be replaced if a better infobox were found. PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Seeyou ( talk) 21:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)Accommodation is a law as certain as the law of gravity. Yet most of us don’t trust the law because of self-doubt or confusion. You may wonder, Can I really become good at this. Will I be able to accomplish my goal Will I find succes. A more useful question is not Can I, but rather how can I. Progress is mechanical : If you practice something over time with attention and commitment to improve, you will. [1]
while it proved harder than i thought, because i wanted to avoid Gardner's claims. According to the suit brought against the See Clearly Method posted on casewatch
...The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience (2000), noting that Dr. Bates was the first exponent of the theory that visual defects could be cured by throwing away one's glasses and following a prescribed regimen of eye exercises, states that this idea was 'one of the most persuasive pieces of pseudoscience in the early part of the 20th century ...'
I think we can cite the encyclopedia directly. i did also find somewhere where Famousdog called it pseudoscience, but i don't think we can use that :) - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 05:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I read the ArbCom decision and it says Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.. Looking at the PubMed ref A systematic review of the applicability and efficacy of eye exercises. seems to indicate the Bates Method meets the ArbCom definition. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm here retyping some excerpts for the Woods report, which I hope will calm the arguments above. I feel compelled to add that IMHO the final conclusion here does not follow from the rest. Quotation begins:
"... Determination of the visual acuity without correction of each eye at 20 feet or a shorter distance when necessary. Four charts were used for this purpose: (a) Snellen chart with letters, (b) Snellen chart with numbers, (c) Landolt broken-ring chart, and (d) Snellen letter-E chart. ..."
"A series of 103 myopic individuals were selected from a total of 130 applicants. The uncorrected visual acuity of these patients was recorded, a cycloplegic instilled, and the retinoscopic and static refractions determined. These 103 myopic patients were then returned to a group of optometrists and psychologists for a course of visual training designed to improve their uncorrected vision. At the end of this visual training the patients were again examined to determine what change had ocurred in their uncorrected vision. It was found that 30 of these patients, or 29 percent, showed a low-grade improvement on all charts. This improvement averaged an increase of 27 points in the percentage visual acuity. A second group of 31 patients, or 30 percent, did not show a consistent improvement on all four charts but did show an overall improvement in both eyes which averaged 14.7 points in the percentage visual acuity. As far as could be determined the improvement in these two groups was not consistently maintained. A third group of 32 patients, or 31 percent, showed practically no change in the percentage visual acuity. A fourth group of 10 patients, or 9 percent, showed a decrease in the percentage visual acuity of 10.8 points.
"The changes in the percentage visual acuity noted was found to lie within the limits of error of subjective testing of the visual acuity. Also the estimating of change on the basis of percentage visual acuity weights the scales in favor of improvement in those who have high myopia.
"The maximum average increase noted in group I was between one and three lines improvement in the Snellen scale. it was believed by the examiners that education in the correct interpretation of a blurred visual image was the chief factor in the improvement noted in this group. It was further believed that the exercises produced a beneficial psychological reaction in certain patients towards their visual handicap, regardless of whether an actual improvement in visual acuity had occurred.
"With the possible exception of educating some patients to interpret blurred retinal images more carefully and of convincing some others that they could see better even though there was no visual improvement, this study indicates that the visual training used on these patients was of no value for the treatment of myopia."
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Infobox Pseudoscience suddenly appeared on 8 February without any announcement or discussion here. I think we need to talk about whether it should be there at all, and if so, what its content should be, particularly as regards the entry "Subsequent proponents", or "Current proponents" as it was called until very recently. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 09:23, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I have a mental image problem with simultaneously making a mountain out of a molehill and being a straw man. Could you draw a picture to help me? I totally support your suggestion about the infobox. As for what "lots of proponents" say, could you give references? As I've often said on this page, modern BM teachers don't talk about things like axial elongation at all. They talk about natural healing and the more cultured ones about "vis medicatrix naturae". BM is a method which stands or falls solely on whether it works. In general its advocates believe that it will in time prove to have a scientific basis, but in the mean time they want to get on with helping people to see better, and are succeeding to at least some extent, even if the result is only "subjective" or the placebo effect. Nobody has a satisfactory theory of refractive error, and the BM people no longer claim to offer one except in the broadest terms, namely "strain", which you rightly have said is so vague as to be fairly meaningless. SamuelTheGhost ( talk) 14:44, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Regarding SamuelTheGhost's edit summary that "those who think BM is pseudoscience also think all alternative medicine is pseudoscience", I don't think that's necessarily true. Some alternative medicine would likely fall under "questionable science" rather than "generally considered pseudoscience" per the arbcom case. While I don't really think the Bates method is pseudoscience, it's apparent to me that that's what it is generally considered, and the arbcom case is clear that it should be categorized that way. By extension the pseudoscience infobox is also appropriate, though it could be replaced if a better infobox were found. PSWG1920 ( talk) 19:35, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Seeyou ( talk) 21:31, 24 February 2009 (UTC)Accommodation is a law as certain as the law of gravity. Yet most of us don’t trust the law because of self-doubt or confusion. You may wonder, Can I really become good at this. Will I be able to accomplish my goal Will I find succes. A more useful question is not Can I, but rather how can I. Progress is mechanical : If you practice something over time with attention and commitment to improve, you will. [1]
while it proved harder than i thought, because i wanted to avoid Gardner's claims. According to the suit brought against the See Clearly Method posted on casewatch
...The Encyclopedia of Pseudoscience (2000), noting that Dr. Bates was the first exponent of the theory that visual defects could be cured by throwing away one's glasses and following a prescribed regimen of eye exercises, states that this idea was 'one of the most persuasive pieces of pseudoscience in the early part of the 20th century ...'
I think we can cite the encyclopedia directly. i did also find somewhere where Famousdog called it pseudoscience, but i don't think we can use that :) - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 05:11, 7 March 2009 (UTC)
I read the ArbCom decision and it says Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience.. Looking at the PubMed ref A systematic review of the applicability and efficacy of eye exercises. seems to indicate the Bates Method meets the ArbCom definition. Ruhrfisch ><>°° 03:00, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
I'm here retyping some excerpts for the Woods report, which I hope will calm the arguments above. I feel compelled to add that IMHO the final conclusion here does not follow from the rest. Quotation begins:
"... Determination of the visual acuity without correction of each eye at 20 feet or a shorter distance when necessary. Four charts were used for this purpose: (a) Snellen chart with letters, (b) Snellen chart with numbers, (c) Landolt broken-ring chart, and (d) Snellen letter-E chart. ..."
"A series of 103 myopic individuals were selected from a total of 130 applicants. The uncorrected visual acuity of these patients was recorded, a cycloplegic instilled, and the retinoscopic and static refractions determined. These 103 myopic patients were then returned to a group of optometrists and psychologists for a course of visual training designed to improve their uncorrected vision. At the end of this visual training the patients were again examined to determine what change had ocurred in their uncorrected vision. It was found that 30 of these patients, or 29 percent, showed a low-grade improvement on all charts. This improvement averaged an increase of 27 points in the percentage visual acuity. A second group of 31 patients, or 30 percent, did not show a consistent improvement on all four charts but did show an overall improvement in both eyes which averaged 14.7 points in the percentage visual acuity. As far as could be determined the improvement in these two groups was not consistently maintained. A third group of 32 patients, or 31 percent, showed practically no change in the percentage visual acuity. A fourth group of 10 patients, or 9 percent, showed a decrease in the percentage visual acuity of 10.8 points.
"The changes in the percentage visual acuity noted was found to lie within the limits of error of subjective testing of the visual acuity. Also the estimating of change on the basis of percentage visual acuity weights the scales in favor of improvement in those who have high myopia.
"The maximum average increase noted in group I was between one and three lines improvement in the Snellen scale. it was believed by the examiners that education in the correct interpretation of a blurred visual image was the chief factor in the improvement noted in this group. It was further believed that the exercises produced a beneficial psychological reaction in certain patients towards their visual handicap, regardless of whether an actual improvement in visual acuity had occurred.
"With the possible exception of educating some patients to interpret blurred retinal images more carefully and of convincing some others that they could see better even though there was no visual improvement, this study indicates that the visual training used on these patients was of no value for the treatment of myopia."