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where is the section on criticism and controversy. not everyone loves him. Manic Hispanic 09:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I resent that. There should be a criticisms section for Obama period. Manic Hispanic 09:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Not only does he get a free ride in the media he is getting a free ride from Wikipedia editors. It's a crime the Rezko real estate deal is not mentioned in this article. That debacle merits mention. Manic Hispanic 23:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I seriously question the relevance of this, unless it can be proved that CNN etc. did it intentionally.-- Pharos 22:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Intent may never be found, and, in-fact may not have been intentional, but the relevancy lies in the reality of a political race, how media on one or both sides of a perceived political aisle can subtly paint a picture one way or another to bias or promote a candidate. The NY Post is not known for it lack of political bias, just as the NY Times has been accused of being left, and the Washington Times to the right. Voters will decide on a candidate for a variety of reasons from actual abilities and experiences to the low and dirty aspects of race, religion, color, etc. While the latter is an unfortunate truth, they are factors; and the factors that are used are always relevant to a balanced story. Juda S. Engelmayer 23:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Juda S. Engelmayer 23:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I'm a lazy browswer who wants his platform handed to me in a nice easy to read table. I think a platform is a list of issues and his stance on them. From broad things like the budget to foreign affairs, down to specific things like the removal of 10-commandment statues and tax-breaks for gay couples. I know this is kinda hard, but I have faith in you guys. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.238.49.65 ( talk) 22:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
I requested another semi-protect for this page. It's undergone way too much vandalism by anon IPs ever since it was unprotected. -- Ubiq 03:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Foxnews used the Kennedy comparison today. He reminds me of JFK in some ways, he is handsome, youthful (JFK was one of our youngest Presidents) and something about his personality reminds me of JFK. A similar charisma leavened with sensitivity.
67.42.243.184 19:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I've read at some Dutch news sites that Mr. Obama is being called the black Kennedy? Anyone knows if that is true, because i haven't read anything about it on American sites —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.105.35.109 ( talk • contribs).
"But Obama is not Kennedy."
"Bobby Kennedy grew up studying how to use America's power, and in his forties he began to venture out and notice its imperfections. Barack Obama came up in a study of those flaws, and now, thrust into a position of power in his forties, is trying to figure out what to do with it."
It was a very good article, and I can understand their comparisons and contrasts. 68.66.168.91 18:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC) Jackie 68.66.168.91 18:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Jackie P.
A controversy section should be added that deals with: the madrassa "scandal"/"slander" however you want to look at that issue. It should also include the controversy of his statement regarding "wasted lives" in referring to US casualties in Iraq. Further, it should talk about the various issues regarding some people asserting he is african american and others the assert he is not. Another possibility is any opinions he might have that might be contraindicated by his religion, as I think he has a few. Ernham 19:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Possible material I'm aware of fitting of a controvery section:
I believe a controversy section is warranted, as few of these lend themselves to being randomly injected here and there. Ernham 23:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are so many editors so reluctent to make Obama look bad in any way. Many politicians have an extensive criticism/controversies section i.e Hillary Clinton and George Bush etc. It is unfair to them for Obama to be exempt. Many people have brought up valid criticism's/controversies that should be included. It is amazing the Tony Rezco real estate deal is not mentioned in this article. Manic Hispanic 04:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
What is everyone's thoughts of using Werdnabot to archive this page? This page is getting a lot of activity and it will only get "worse" the farther into the campaign we get. -- Bobblehead 01:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's a good video clip of Obama denying interest in 2004 in running for President. [3] Should a note be made of this, just a sentence, in the Presidential section? --Zz414 15:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a sentence in the presidential section saying "Obama first said he had 'thought about the possibility' of running for president, departing from earlier statements that he intended to serve out his six-year Senate term through 2010." - PoliticalJunkie 16:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The current wording is fine, and not in any way subtle or covert. Trying to over-emphasize his impression of his presidential chances back in 2004, instead of focusing on more recent quotes, could be construed as undue weight. Italiavivi 03:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello folks, Im one of the regular mediators. I anticipate much more discussion on this article, and as such I want to try an experiment for a high-traffic controversial topic talk page, (this seems to qualify). The idea is to organize the talk page according to a topic-based system, archiving the discussion in a topical way, rather than just in a linear way.
The first thing to do would be to work out a system for doing this. The basic system would be a topical list at the top, which link to subpages titled after the major issues relevant to this article. There are of course some potential problems with people editing other peoples comments - the important rule must be to be principled and consistent - making linkages to specific archive sections.
Im curious how this sounds to people. Please offer your feedback at Talk:Barack Obama/Organisation. - Ste| vertigo 09:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, this seems well-intentioned, and could be useful, but my initial reaction is that we have enough to do to keep the article itself organized and I for one don't relish having to think about where and how I post my comments on Talk. But I'm certainly interested in listening to how it would work, and who would maintain it. If I understand you correctly - having read this very quickly - this would take talk page comments and categorize them but leave them in place as well? Who decides?
Tvoz |
talk 04:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
He said on MSNBC that he was part Arab also his father and step-father were muslum.
This Arab heritage idea is erroneous until someone can prove otherwise. Dogru144 18:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I changed the word "conversely" to "on the other hand", exact same meaning but I liked the sound better. Plus, Crouch's comment is rather shocking, and almost the only critical comment in the whole article, and I thought people needed to take a pause before they read it, hence the four word expression. Besides that, "conversely" is not a word which most people use very much. Does anyone have any other ideas for improving this sentence? Thanks. Steve Dufour 14:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
"conversely" (adverb) with the terms of the relation reversed see http://www.onelook.com/?w=conversely -- HailFire 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I see that "conversely" has been put back. The sentence just before the one about Crouch's statement reads: "Another article in The Nation analyzed Obama's ability to "transcend race" with white audiences." I am not sure if what Crouch said is exactly "converse" to this. On the other hand, it is a "contrary opinion". Steve Dufour 07:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
If you would like to take out the quote itself that would be fine with me. It is just one guy's opinion.
Steve Dufour 05:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I rarely ever hear the word conversely, even on television. Contrarily is fine, IMO. Shakam 05:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is this so important? -- Calibas 21:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I fully move protected the article after noticing a bit of move vandalism today. I don't think there's any reason to ever move this article. I didn't change the article's semi protection. · j e r s y k o talk · 04:59, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
We have this box, appropriately, in the section on his Presidential race. I do not think we need it on top as well - most of the page - his early life, education, his Illinois legislature years, his Senate campaign and service, his books, etc - are not subject to the rapid changes that the Presidential section is, and that the box addresses. I don't particularly see the need for the box in any case, but I can live with it in the Presidential race section, not on top of the whole article. Also ok with me if it's in the separate Presidential campaign article. I removed it from the top and it was instantly reverted - I removed it again and asked for this to be discussed in talk. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Tvoz | talk 08:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The "popular culture" section is mostly political commentary. Nothing wrong with political commentary on a presidential candidate, but it should be labelled as such. So you don't all have to go looking, I would consider the Oprah appearance to be pop culture, the Time cover to be borderline. But NYT (Brooks), Daily News (Crouch), and WSJ (Noonan) columnists, along with his own book, can hardly be considered "pop culture" references. Can we move those into a different section? I would consider Obama in pop culture to be his appearance on Monday Night Football, the satire they just did on 30 Rock, and maybe his appearance on The Daily Show or any late night talk shows. Entertainment versus politics. -- Mykll42 22:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC) (Whoops... sorry)
"Cultural and political image" works for now. And, I agree, his popular culture image is of limited notability compared to his political image. Mykll42 06:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Culture is a suitably broad term that encompasses both an appearance on Oprah and how he is viewed by political commentators. A section on just his political image wouldn't necesarily include that and it is notable given her cultural influence. I'm going to guess you were joking about the political image thing. Mykll42 07:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No mention of mixed marriage regarding his parents or birth. Is this irrelevant in 2007? Surely with some people saying he's "not black enough", this is relevant. ObamaNation 04:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
As seen at his site and online store. [4] Any idea what the copyright status on this campaign logo with regard to Wikipedia use would be? Have past articles made use of campaign yard signs/bumper stickers or logos? Italiavivi 18:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the senate campaign sign here on Obama's article, Ken Salazar's old Senate election logo is used at his article, with a Fair Use claim on the image itself. Hillary Clinton has the same, with her "Hillary" logo. I know George W. Bush used a stylized "W" logo for some campaign material, but can't find that one in use on Wikipedia anywhere. Italiavivi 19:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Unarchiving this section since the one below it covers the same area.-- Bobblehead 00:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Fair use images are required to contribute substantially to the article. Can anyone justify the substantial contribution of Image:Obama 08.JPG and Image:Barack Obama campaign logo.JPG. Perhaps those of you with connections to the campaign could have them release the images under an acceptable licence if they want them included. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's fair use policy is quite clear. In the event that free use images exist, they are always preferred over fair use images. We have not been able to confirm what parts of Obama's website are covered under CC, and, based on their Flickr photostream, it would not be compatible with Wikipedia anyway (they are presently released using the NC clause). I'm very sad my pictures from the Austin rally didn't come out very well so I can't contribute :( — bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
So If the problem is getting the images as free use... is there anyone in here who works on the campaign? Or does someone want to contact the campaign? All the new candidates seems to be falling over themselves to be internet friendly I wouldn't be surprised if they would release the campaign images with a license that works here. After all it can't hurt. (I am willing to write the campaign if no one else has closer ties). -- Rtrev 05:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
We should strive to obtain some free example of the campaign material and the non-free images don’t seem particularly original or important. However, I don’t understand why the Time cover was removed; to appear on the cover of Time is definitely significant. Additionally, the image was doing a good job of representing the press coverage as a whole (again due to the magazine’s cover’s importance) and I don’t see from where a free replacement could come that would be similarly representative. — xyzzy n 11:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is a story which says that a majority of blacks now support Obama: [6] I'm not sure how to put in into the article however. Steve Dufour 17:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Editors of this article may be interested in this Flickr photo set, which has a lot of decent pictures of Obama and is compatibly licensed.-- ragesoss 06:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Because his father is Barack H. Obama, Sr, is his official birth certificate name "Barack Hussein Obama, Junior"? Steveprutz 18:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've restored this line: In February 1990, the New York Times reported his election as the Harvard Law Review's "first black president in its 104-year history." As per earlier talk, it is safest to name the source and use an exact quotation where terms "black" or "African American" are given. Also, HLR is a journal, not a newspaper as the recent edit stated. Lastly, I think no "The" flows better here before New York Times. Though I realize it is an open debate, I think we should put the readers first, and keep the prose as easy to follow as possible given that this sentence is already loaded. Hope others agree. -- HailFire 10:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There are now reports that his mother's ancestors owned slaves. This could be embarrassing to Obama, so I propose that we immediately delete any edits that mention this. Ogeez 20:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't have a choice of who our ancestors, or even our parents, are; so, why would this be important? He didn't choose to have slave-owning ancestors. shakam
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash6.htm
Less than two months after ascending to the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama bought more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors, the NYT will splash on Wednesday Page Ones.
The paper claims, according to newsroom sources: One of the companies was a biotech concern that was starting to develop a drug to treat avian flu. In March 2005, two weeks after buying about $5,000 of its shares, Obama took the lead in a legislative push for more federal spending to battle the disease.
The paper's Mike McIntire and Chris Drew get front placement [side by side with Libby Coverage] for details of Obama's most recent financial disclosure:
It shows that he bought more than $50,000 in stock in a satellite communications business whose principal backers include four friends and donors who had raised more than $150,000 for his political committees.
A spokesman for Obama says the senator did not know that he had invested in either company.
Impacting late...
As this story develops, its just might, might merit mention along with the Tony Rezko deal. Obama could kill someone and you libs wouldn't mention it, because it's not "relevent" or "npov". What part of "all sum of human knowledge" don't you administrators on a power trip understand. Because you power abusers think it's trivial doesn't make it so, notability is subjective. It's hilarious how glossed over he is, no negative mentions of him at all, and yet it's featured, that's the plutocracy wikipedia for you. Wikitruth is right. Spare me the same lame excuses you give everyone not kissing Obama's ass. Manic Hispanic 06:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This is not one of the best articles on wikipedia, that's a joke. Whatever I know nothing short of <
WP:BLP violation removed> will get him negative criticism from you holy editors.
Manic Hispanic 04:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Civility should not be applied to politics. And you give me WP:BLP. Well all I have to say is this article violates NPOV because it is slanted towerds the postive, and anyone who attempts to interject any criticism, or issues that are controvorsial, is quickly silenced and there edits reverted. This page is full of Obama hawks with the intent to silence dissenters. Manic Hispanic 06:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
When was the semiprotection status removed? I signed on after a few hours and saw a tennis match of racial epithets and gorilla pictures on a Senator's page. Mykll42 03:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, nothing is also enough. This latest restoration of sprot was blatantly preemptive. IP blocking was not even tried. I have changed to the sprot template that warns unregistered users that their contributions are not welcome on this page. We could do better than this. -- HailFire 01:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The sprot issue is a moot point. The dictators who rule this article immediately delete almost everything posted by an IP user anyway. Ogeez 05:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC
He and his wife are members of an Afrocentric African-separatist church, Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. The church's website [8] describes the church's predominantly race-based belief system as follows:
"Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:
1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."
Obama is more correctly referred to as an African-African-American. Contemporary use of the term African-American refers to those Americans of African descent that trace their heritage to the black experience in America before the 20th century. Being that neither his maternal, nor his paternal heritage can claim such an experience, makes calling him African-American extreme disinformation. - JC
He's African and he's American, thus he's African American. 23:30 February 21, 200 - Fentoro
My God this is a stupid title. Most African Americans have some White ancestry and 1 out of 6 White Americans have some non-White ancestry. You know what-- he is 100% American, Can we get over this idiocy and focus on what the man has to offer as a potential President?
Commitment to the black community, the black family, the black work ethic, another reference to the black community, black leadership, black value system. This isn't racism?? Has very little to do with Obama, but if I started a Caucaso-Centric church based on promoting the white community and white leaders, you think people would let it slide as easily? Gosh, this country's messed up. Regardless, who cares if he's an African-American, an African-African-American, African, or American? Does it really matter?
67.42.243.184 19:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
He is a mulatto, or mixed race, which ever you prefer.
Ernham 01:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Then it would be superfluous to have the words "mulatto" and "mixed-race" if the aren't really definitive. I know one thing for sure, if/when the exploratory committee decides he should run, the article should read, "If elected, he would be the first African-American (I know I'm not going to win this on here so I guess I'll let you all have your little fun), as well as the first biracial president." Shakam 06:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Part of his importance is that he is a black (as that word is defined in the USA) American. The opening paragraph only quotes the Senate Historical Office on his African American-ness. Steve Dufour 18:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
We'll just see what happens on 2/10. Shakam 05:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
So, he can call himself African American, even if he's not? Seriously, he's half white, half black. He's no more African American, than he is white. How do you think people would react if he called himself white? It's amazing how reverse racism works. Anyone can call themselves African American, while it's a crime to be white.
You can't compare what a person chooses to be, to how a person is born. Bad analogy. Shakam
To be more specific for those who don't want to go back through the archives themselves or muck through the WP manual of style. Look at WP:STYLE#Identity as well as WP:NOR. The somewhat definitive discussion can be seen in the archives please look through them! -- Rtrev 03:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
People are too lazy to read the archives, they think they are special and that their input is better than what has already been discussed. This topic has been beaten over and over again (with me a contributing factor.) He is not African-American. How about we move forward in time and not backwards??? shakam 06:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
He is not african-american in the way the term is used in the united states, which is in fact unique, just like the sun does not revolve around the earth. Any "debate" that came to a contrary conclusion is not worth my time to read through. Ernham 17:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the American Heritage dictionary an african american is "a Black American with African ancestry". He's african, he's american, he's an african american. Slightly off topic, why do we call blacks african americans when we don't call white people european americans? -- Calibas 00:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The reality is, if he does in fact want to use the term African American--and we do place that in the lead-- there MUST be a controversy/ criticism establishing that many other African Americans think he is a pretender. If it's not bleated about in the article, then we don't have to include that criticism/controversy. Apparently Barack has even gone as far to defend his usage of the term by claiming "decendents of slaves and recent african immigrants have a lot in common ", a mind bogglingly ridiculous statement if I ever heard one. Ernham 17:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he is called AA because America still lives in the immediate, centennial-past? (rhetorical, don't bother responding) Shakam 04:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Didn't Stephen Colbert interview a women who said Barack is not an African American? While I think he is an African American, and so does the dictionary, a fair amount of published material says he isnt; just do a quick web search and you'll find some of it. I think you should make either a controversy section about his racial identity here, or make or find an article which covers the debate over what is the proper defenition of African American, and put a link to it here. For the record, I am for refering to Barack as an African American in this article, as he fits the dictionary defenition of being one, and it is fairly linear and unblamable to accept the dictionary as the final authority on all questions of what words mean. Some people might argue that Bush is not the president of the United States, because he didn't get more votes then Gore in Florida, or the popular vote. They deserve to be mentioned in wikipedia; it is not proper however that because of their opinions, wikipedia does not flatly call Bush president in his article, and where relevant.-Somebody
Having taken a glance at the article, I really don't think it would fit it, to have an section about the debate over whether or not Barack Obama is an African American or not. A sentence could be slipped in, or a link which goes to an article covering the debate over what the proper citerion are for being an African American.-Somebody —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frelt ( talk • contribs).
Could those looking to change how african-american or black is used in Wikipedia articles please start by focusing on articles with less noteworthy individuals. I would be much more likely to support a change if a number of other articles were changed in a way that went against how individuals identified themselves as black, and instead started assigning them non-black labels. This is not the article to be having that debate about. Frankly I think that this idea of telling people of a certain race or ethnicity that they don't fit the wikipedia version of that race is going to be a tricky business, and would suggest that it start elsewhere.
Here we have Salon's Debra Dickerson [12] and NY Daily News' Stanley Crouch [13] both raising the issue of Obama's "blackness." Can we accept that Obama's race is indeed a matter of controversy, with regard to blacks in America and calling himself "African-American"? Two reliable sources, both black columnists, mind you. I'm having trouble with arguments against notability being used on this article, at this point. Italiavivi 19:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The carpetbagging black Republican Alan Keyes opened up this racialist can of worms when he opposed Mr. Obama in the Illinois Senate race back in 2004. Badly outmatched and reaching for any brick he could find, Mr. Keyes blurted out that Mr. Obama was not black because he was not descended from slaves. The Daily News columnist Stanley Crouch later seemed to second that view, saying that Mr. Obama had not “lived the life of a black American.”
A minority of any action volunteers automatically all the distinguishing features of that minority. Should the minority be human, then colour, speech, education, and roots, are going to prejudice each of us, according to our own unique background. Obama is black; being black will be mentioned. Obama is university educated; being university educated will be mentioned. Obama smokes; being a smoker will be mentioned. All the demarcations will come out that we can imagine, because he is part of an American minority. Similarly with those in a majority, but the restraint of exposing every nuance is in effect. Clinton is white; being white is not mentioned, while other demarcations are. What I mean by all of this is that African-American, black, et al, is going to get plenty of, inevitable, exposure in the press and public. Time to acknowledge that reality and not be slowed by any further opinion on it. -- Free4It 00:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The article refers to Obama raising money for a 2010 campaign - surely this should be 2008? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.129.102.19 ( talk) 05:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
The Democratic presidential debate in Nevada was cancelled because the chairman of Fox News made a joke about the words "Obama" and "Osama" sounding similar. [15] This is notable. Together with the CNN "Where's Obama?" headline, [16] this merits a section about people confusing the two names. Ogeez 08:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The article could be improved by adding links to non-American articles and media coverage. 172.146.15.93 06:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This was debunked rather well at snopes.com, at the link below. The opening paragraph of the Wiki page on Obama states that he is the only practicing muslim in the Senate. No where else in the article is it mentioned.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpauX35gwYo for more details.
Today's edits by one user has seen a deletion to a paragraph with citations in it. Cited material should not be deleted without discussion on a talkpage. Ronbo76 20:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I've had stuff deleted even if there was a citation. There was no discussion about it, just someone deleting it. Therefore, a citation does not prevent deletion. We need to clean up the article and eliminate irrelavent stuff. So what if Obama cosponsored a bill. Senators do that thousands of times during their senate term. What is relevant is if Obama's bill is passed as was the case in the Congo bill. Also relevant is if he has a bill jointly with the GOP, such as with Senator McCain. Also revelant is when he submits a bill about his pet subject, withdrawal in Iraq.
Why is the pastor that married him so important. It just detracts from Obama. Why not list which airlines he's an elite frequent flyer or what brand of tires he uses? Dereks1x 20:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
For example, "In September 2006, Obama supported a related bill, the Secure Fence Act, authorizing construction of fencing and other security improvements along the United States–Mexico border." under the legislation section. He simply voted on the bill. This is not newsworthy. 80 senators voted for the bill. The bill was not Obama's idea. If he wrote a bill with McCain, that's worthy of wikipedia. If he has a pet issue, such as not fighting in Iraq, that's worthy of mention. If you mention a bill that he voted yes or no, then you should list all the hundreds of bills that he voted on. If one includes the Secure Fence Act trying to fool the reader to thinking that it's Obama's idea, this is fraud. For a neutral viewpoint, I think the sentence should be deleted. If not deleted, there should be a note that Obama was simply voted on the measure, one of hundreds of votes, and that it wasn't his idea. Dereks1x 20:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Hhhmm...Failure to pay a parking ticket. What a monster.
128.138.173.224 06:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
So, are the fascist dictator Obama hawks guarding this page going to oppress this very noteworthy information [17] [18] [19], too? Italiavivi 23:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The man had to also drink his victim's blood for your noteworthiness? Truth be that all of these aspects [smoking, ticket trespasses, law school flaunting,] have an undeniable influence in our personal assessment of the man; but, not any of it needs concrete exposure in an encyclopedia. -- Free4It 00:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} The caption for 20060926 p092606kh-0093-515h.jpg should read "only Tom Coburn's hair is visible behind Rep. Henry Waxman of California." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bradywahl ( talk • contribs).
Picture was swapped by HailFire for another one where Coburn is visible, so this is now moot Tvoz | talk 07:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Dereks1x - I am sure you mean well in your editing of Barack Obama, but there is a problem with the way you are doing it. Some of your edits are not careful, and introduce errors in language and wording; some of them are taking an article that many editors have worked hard to keep NPOV and making it less so. Also the article has been given featured status, and we have recently undergone a review of that featured status, and one of the criteria is stability - that means, once wording has been established for sections that are not current events, for example, editors are supposed to try to keep that wording as it is without making lots of changes. His early life, for example, has been gone over and over and the wording is fair, accurate, and not changing, so there's no need to edit it further beyond an occasional tweak. Also the reference style has been under scrutiny and editors have worked hard to keep it consistent and in compliance with standards. PLease believe me when I tell you that the regular editors on this article are diligent and non-partisan. We're not pushing any agenda, pro or anti the Senator regarding his Presidential ambition. What we want is for there to be a fair article, with a reasonable level of detail but not too much - that's another issue in Featured status - with reliable references, and a consistent style. If anyone has ideas for additions or major changes, we try to discuss them on the Talk page before implementing them. I'm asking you, then, to do that. I'm speaking for myself here - as one editor of the page - and one of the ones who has reverted some of your multiple edits yesterday and today. It's very time consuming to do this over and over - you are today reinstating things that were removed yesterday. Please stop doing that and come over to talk instead and say why you think your changes are needed, and I assure you that fair changes will get a fair hearing. I'm posting this on your user talk page and on Talk:Barack Obama where it can be discussed more. I hope you don't take offense, and I hope you will be a cooperative editor on this highly-visible featured article. Thank you. Tvoz | talk 21:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, didn't know it was a featured article Dereks1x 21:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
And also, please don't edit other people's entries on article talk pages. Tvoz | talk 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
"Senator Obama has taken positive steps to eliminate actions which might be deemed improper. In an agreement with his wife, Obama agreed to stop smoking in exchange for her helping him run.[99] He has said that he will only invest in mutual funds or money market accounts after critics accused him of buying individual stocks which would benefit from government funding that Obama was proposing.[100] Obama also paid 15 parking tickets which were issued to him 17 years ago.[101]"
This is an absurd paragraph and I removed it. Is he stopping smoking because it "might be deemed improper"? Gee, I would have thought it was a health issue. Or maybe an image issue. But not a matter of propriety. And neither of the other two items are notable. Even consensus on your own "survey" here (a method I don't particularly subscribe to because we don't do these things by vote) says they are not notable or we should wait and see. NOne of this belongs in the article. If people insist on including something about his trying to stop smoking - and the importance of this escapes me - then come up with some better wording than that it mught be deemed improper. My opinion, as a long time editor of this article, is that including it gives it undue weight, and I see no need for it at all. There is a whole lot that has been left off of this article, for space reasons, and because you can't include every detail. This is one I'd pass on. Tvoz | talk 09:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Since I was dragged into this (kicking and screaming while on a wikibreak, no less), the above is not a poll. It's structured discussion. A poll looks like this:
In my example, no discussion is taking place, just a straight up head count. Those types of polls, in the absence of other discussion, are pretty much not permitted on Wikipedia, and not through an essay, but through a pretty clear guideline:
WP:!VOTE. I imagine Tvoz originally placed it under that section because the added paragraph incorporated a good portion of the issues discussed there, and not to personally attack your efforts, Italiavivi. Can we put this behind us and keep moving forward on discussing and writing the article at hand?
—
bbatsell
¿?
✍ 22:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
ok, you win. We'll let the sharp reader click the links and figure out that Punahou School is a very expensive and famous school and we'll let the point slip by the dull reader by not commenting on how great the school is. Frankly, I think that is being biased, not neutral, but I'll let it slide. Dereks1x 20:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying this description from http://www.punahou.edu/page.cfm?p=11 ("About Punahou", 2nd paragraph) -- HailFire 07:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there any good reason we can't link to Luo (Kenya and Tanzania)? Personally, I think that's one of the most interesting articles that someone reading this page could stumble upon.-- Pharos 05:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 07:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that this section is irrelevant with the exception of the African trip and the HIV test. Other senator's wikipedia article do not have a official travel section. This may be because long time senators have made many trips. In the interest of neutrality, the trip section should NOT be there IF the purpose is to falsely convince the reader that the Senator is well travelled and therefore qualified in foreign policy (I must add that I am not saying this is the case). In the interest of fairness to other senator's articles, the official trip section should not be there unless the trip is newsworthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
How come no mention of how the fact his ancestors OWNED slaves could hurt his campaign image? Just an interesting though [1]. Jmlk17 16:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't wiki be neutral and allow neutrally worded descriptions of controversies about Obama. If you don't have this, then wiki is not being neutral but hiding information. North Korea and Iran are countries that hide information from the public and Wikipedia is not a mouthpiece of North Korea. Do you favor neutrally worded mention of controversies in a new section or do you favor censorship like in North Korea? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
That's a good question. Let's vote on it. Please vote "Neutral worded" or "North Korea." I'll start.
Neutral worded: I agree that wikipedia should embrace free speech instead of North Korea style censorship.
Ogeez 18:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
My side won several of the votes on Obama controversies. What should we do about this now? We need to write about his smoking, blackness, dispute with Australia PM, and Fox News madrassa expose. Ogeez 00:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean your "side"? Also, the madrassa one is tied. Jiffypopmetaltop 00:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Also it's not a vote. See WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY which is, by the way, official policy, not an opinion essay. Tvoz | talk 05:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I find your use of "my side" highly suspicious, Ogeez. Jiffy wasn't being a troll, so I wouldn't refer to him as that. The madrassah smear job by Fox News has its own article already. The criticism from Australian PM has already been noted. I'm sure the quit smoking with Obama thing will be in there soon, if it's not already. Doesn't look like there's much work left to do. -- Ubiq 01:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Censorship of controversies is not being neutral, the hallmark of wikipedia. That's like omiting all mention of Watergate in a Nixon article or Whitewater in a Clinton article. Perhaps there could be a section under controversies near the end and just bullets with a description and a neutral analysis. Dereks1x 02:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey what happened? It used to be bigger! There was a section on occupation, which said "attorney, law instructor" and some other info.
Anyone remember what it said? If it's good, why not replace it?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.212.111.238 ( talk) 19:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
Hi all, first time that i write on a discussion and i'm not so good with english :) The question is: i see that Rudy Giuliani has his {{tl|Future election candidate}} template on the top of the article, why there's no such thing on Obama's? I see that Obama's article is blocked too, why did you choose not to place the template {{ protected}}? Not a criticism at all, just to know!-- bs ( talk) 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't notice that obama's was just semi-protected (i didn't know enwiki way to flag protected and semi-protected pages, actually). Thank you Tvoz!-- bs ( talk) 17:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you think? From Obama's Past: An Old Classmate, A Surprising Call, Wall Street Journal, Vol. CCXLIX No. 68, March 23, 2007, p.A1
I think #2 and #3 are not relevant unless you want to modify the reference to Punahou school being "exclusive". It really it exclusive. That's now verified by the Wall St. Journal and about half a million Hawaiians can vouch for that. It's no surprise because the race to the Prez is tough. You need help like Punahou or Phillips Academy like the Bushs. MLK High in the inner city is not good enough. That's just life.
Obama's former law firm was described in the article as "civil rights law firm". This is biased so it's against wikipedia policy. It's also false. The firm does a whole lot of plaintiff stuff. Originally, I summarized it in one phrase. However, someone edited it out. As a compromise, I placed a link and just refered to it as a law firm.
Before people edited out the description of Punahou School as being well respected. If you're going to edit that out, then you should agree that "civil rights" law firm should also be edited out. There's an even stronger case because Punahou is well respected (no dispute) but it's a lie to say that the firm is primarly a civil rights law firm. Furthermore, wiki editors said people could just click the link to Punahou to see how good it is. The same now goes for the law firm.
The neutral POV is not to lie and mischaracterize the law firm. Either describe it in its entiretly (got edited out) or give a link and just describe it as a law firm. Dereks1x 21:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Rather than a blanket (and somewhat vague and inaccurate) one word characterization of his law practice, more specifics were added. For example, a reference was added to pre-existing text in the article backing up the notion that he did employment cases and some voting issues. Also he continued to work part time after being a state senator, he did not quit as the old wikipedia version implies. Everything is neutrally worded. Someone (Bobbelhead) reverted the change....please don't do this especially because the old version was less specific and less accurate. Dereks1x 18:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There's no evidence that he's board certified in civil rights. Attorneys can be board certified in a number of areas. Furthermore, employment cases, his main work, is not necessarily civil rights cases. One can sue for wrongful termination for many reasons. The current wording makes presumptions. It is more accurate to just say what kind of work he did, i.e. employment, voting, rather than a blanket statement of being a civil rights attorney doing employment and voting. That's like saying "GWB is an environmental president who was president during the cleanup of the World Trade Center". The first part of the phrase is opinion, the second is fact. The same goes for Obama's description. Dereks1x 18:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Calm down, Tvoz!!! User: Human Thing did not call you an Obama supporter or anti-Obama person. See "without commenting on Tvoz' political beliefs...." The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x 14:27, 24 March 2007
After reading this subsection, I merely wanted to note that I believe certain editors are confusing Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies with the non-existent truth policy. That's it. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the latest Tvox revision is close enough for a compromise. It doesn't give him the blanket term "civil rights lawyer" which is too close to "civil rights leader" which is what MLK is. Obama is no MLK. However, it does refer to his civil rights caseload. A small suggestion and revision, however. Not everyone knows what an associate lawyer does so a modifier, sort of a descriptive phrase, is appropriate. On the positive side, it shows that the guy is a team player, not a prima donna that insists on talking in court. The preceding comment was entered by User: Dereks1x.
It smacks on original research when you expect people to read the jobs an attorney link and think that's what Obama did. Furthermore, the link is flawed because there is no evidence that Obama wrote wills, trusts, deeds, real estate closings, derived a solution, disbursement of settlement funds, or other things that the wikipedia link says.
Since you don't like the truth, i.e. that he did not participate in any trials, I think that can slide providing it's mentioned what he did...contracts, briefs, etc.
This is done in the spirit of compromise, i.e. ok, you can delete the phrase I put in this morning but don't delete other older stuff. In wikipedia, you're supposed to revise as oppose to delete, when possible. I can (and did) compromise, can you? Dereks1x 23:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Should we do a write-up on the "1984" ad produced by the Obama campaign? That must be the awesomest political ad ever. Ogeez 14:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Consensus seems to be (and I agree) that if this is included at all, it be in the separate presidential election article, so I am removing it from the main article where it was placed today. Tvoz | talk 06:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
...the Islamic/Sufi word " Barakah," which roughly means (according to the article) "spiritual wisdom and blessing transmitted from God," "divine presence," " grace," " charisma," etc. Since his father was a Muslim this makes sense, that his first name is an Arabic word/Muslim concept. Do you all think that this warrants a mention in the article? Mr. Obama is quite well known for his personal " charisma," I believe, so it's interesting that this is sort-of what his first name means. -- WassermannNYC 01:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
does seem to have its roots in the Arabic barakah. -- Saforrest 03:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
HELLO! Hebrew and Arabic are closely related (both Semitic languages). "Baruch" and "Barakah" are obviously closely related terms, as both mean roughly "blessing" (and similar terms: grace, charisma, divine favor/presence, etc). Seeing as his father came from a Muslim background (and thus likely had at least some familiarity with Arabic), there's no doubt the root of Obama's name is from the Arabic word Barakah [NOTE: sometiems spelled differently], and NOT from the Hebrew word " Baruch" because his father was likely to have MUCH more familiarity with Arabic rather than Hebrew. Also, didn't Obama briefly study at a Muslim school in Indonesia? There we would no doubt have been learning ARABIC, and not Hebrew. -- WassermannNYC 10:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
his name is closer to barakah than baruch, and i've heard thats where his name came from.-- Lerdthenerd 10:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the direction this article is taking. My inclusion of the Arabic spelling of Obama's name has come under a lot of fire that I find hard to understand. It occurs to me that the reason, perhaps, is that the powers that be in this article's editing are worried about the political consequences of including the name. I'm sure it's obvious why that worries me. I want to make it clear that this is not a political statement. I'm not especially political myself, and haven't looked too much into the 2008 election. At the same time, it's important to provide information to those seeking it. We have a responsibility to the readership to provide such information. If my content were false or irrelevant, it would make sense to remove it -- but it isn't. He is and American of African lineage, yes, but his name is, without question, of Arabic origin. I can attest to a potential reader's interest in the Arabic spelling because I myself was interested in it when I saw the article. When I ran across the article, I noticed that the Arabic spelling was missing, found it, and added it. I realize that there's not much I can do to keep the Arabic script in the article if people with much more time than I are constantly watching over it. I have neither the ability nor the interest in engaging in such an edit war. I'm asking that those who object to its inclusion consider their own reasons in light of the mission of Wikipedia. If they would only do this, I have no doubt that they would see why my contribution deserves mention in the article as it was. It's not political, and it's not irrelevant. I understand the wish to protect the article on the part of Obama's supporters, but it's downright irresponsible to withhold relevant information, regardless of what you assume the political consequences might be. Mikehoffman 00:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
There is also the Hebrew word " Berakhah" which is of course very similar to both " Barakah" (Arabic) and " Baruch" (Hebrew). -- 172.132.140.158 08:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be moved to Barack Hussein Obama Bluppiblu 23:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's get the facts straight about Mr. Obama. He is a Freshman Senator, not a Junior Senator as you have clearly written, with hyper-text, in the first sentence of your facts paragraph. Do not make this man out for more than he is, he has next to zero national political experience yet all you people want is to make him President. Two years and two months, please he hasn't even been in office a full term, nor has he even run a state, let alone the United States. Why is it too, that the media does not talk about his Islamic up-bringing or is that to sensitive. I'm sure the Obamaites will whip-up some sort of spin to keep selling a poor bill of goods, but I wouldn't expect anything less. Chrispb-72 18:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Fox News and Insight Magazine reports were debunked and FNC admitted their mistake." -I believe the claim here is that he was REGISTERED as a muslim in two of his elementary schools, regardless of the nature of the school itself. Has this claim been debunked and if so please cite a source. 129.98.225.131 15:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is more recent, but it is also closer to his policitical career which might make his current affiliation with the Christian religion suspect as a means to cover up his alleged Muslim background as polls show that would hurt him greatly in his political life. 68.161.55.96 18:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course it will not appear because you and the rest of the Obama crew fascists won't allow anything in the article that doesn't scream "Obama in '08". This article is nothing more than a campaigning tool, anything else is deleted immediately.
I will do some research for you this weekend and have a source for you about his registration as an elementary school student this coming Monday. 68.161.55.96 18:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It's me from the last comment on another computer Here is the source I promised: The following is a link to a Los Angeles Times story dated March 15, 2007. The LA Times is a known pro-Obama newspaper. Here's the article: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story
Here is a quote from the article: "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."
Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times
"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong." This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007
Wow, you Obama campaigners are quite a team. Quite a team indeed. If anyone had any doubt that Obama doesn't have a full time staff monitering this article. All doubt should be erased now.
What a joke -I challenge ANYONE HERE to read this LA Times article and tell me I'm misrepresenting it. Either these people are stupid or fascits. You choose. Read it and then see if you think these fascists are correct when they say that "Everything" in the article is already covered on the wiki page. If this we'ren't such as scandal it would be a laugh.
-but of course I assume good faith, as you guys do too, reverting cited sources in not time flat! Unbeleivable.
I've been trying to word this tidbit in a fair manner, but the more I look at its source (a blog post from RealClearPolitics [23]), the more I have a problem with its reliability. The author, Nathan Gonzales, paraphrases all of Sen. Obama's responses to his questions.
I had mistakenly placed the phrases "uncomfortable with only certain parts of the bill" and "attempts by Republicans to score points" within quotation marks, assuming them to have been Sen. Obama's responses, but now realize that Mr. Gonzales has provided no directly quoted responses from Sen. Obama in his blog post. Due to its origin (a conservative blog), and the fact that it provides none of Sen. Obama's actual responses, I question its reliability as a source for this article. In previous Talk discussion, there was a fairly solid consensus (including from anti-Obama-POV editors) that Obama's past "present" votes were neither extraordinary nor notable. Should this become an issue covered by reliable sources, we can re-visit it later. Italiavivi 22:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Would the fascists who control this article allow some mention of his smoking habit? This been discussed quite a bit in the media and could become a campaign issue. Of course, if we want the article to remain an Obama advertisement, we might want to sweep his nicotine addiction under the rug. Ogeez 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Winston Churchill smoked and drank regularly. Hitler did neither. The point being, smoking has nothing to do with leadership capacity and quality. 205.202.240.101 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above point.
Ogeez, the article is not "ridiculously pro-Obama biased". You're not doing anything to contribute to this article or wikipedia. You came to the wrong place if you were looking to smear a presidential candidate you don't like. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to include relevant, representative information about something. That's what this article does, and it's a fine example of a good article. The problem with including a lot of the "negative" information you want to be included is, none of it is notable. Read the policy. If he were to say something blatantly racist and there was a public reaction/outcry, such that it generated plenty of note, it would be included in this article, regardless of the political affiliations of the editors. But somehow I don't see him doing something like that, so people who see him as a threat will continue coming here to find out why his article is so "biased". -- Ubiq 02:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be rad to include a fully contextualized discussion of Obama's smoking including the fact that individuals with lower incomes (working-class) are more likely to smoke than those with higher incomes. Also, why doesn't GWB's page list his cocaine use? Probably it's controlled by "fascists" as well. -- Autumninjersey 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Smokin' Obama ! Consider the moment when we first learned that Obama smoked. Did it skewer, however briefly, previous thoughts we held of him, whether yea or nay? Probably. Ok, certainly. Now, after becoming aware of such, did our opinions of him become sufficiently altered that our perception of the man took a new form? Probably, not. If we liked him, we continued to like him. If we didn't, then we continued to not. Net effect of all of this is that the smoking issue is, well, just that, an issue for each of us personally. But, is it an issue of encyclopedic proportion. History says no. Current events say yes. If we decide yes, given the current free-flowing content of Wikipedia, then logic guides to mention, for all public figures, their smoking habits [John Brown, smoker; Jane Brown, non-smoker]. Because if the smoking habit of one is sufficient for encyclopedic entry, then the non-smoking habit of another becomes equally necessary. Since no one is prepared to do that, I vote we leave it out [though it bothers me, personally, that he smokes]. -- Free4It 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Update: On Larry King Live, March 19, 2007, Barack re-affirmed he is still an ex-smoker - now even more on a non-issue. There is no need to note all the ex-smokers in bios! Samatva 09:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the fact that he, and the media, keep making it public issue,that he is quitting smoking is certainly worthwhile to put on here Vegeta206 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps in the meantime someone can edit the article? as it stands, the line about Obama's former smoking habits sounds like an advertisment for nicorette gum. I dont think it's relevant to include what brand of gum he used, or even if he used it at all. 198.186.64.22 00:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I still don't know that this paragraph is the best place for the smoking mention. I like the way the sentence is written now, but does it belong in a section on his early life, right next to talk of pot and blow?
Italiavivi 05:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
where is the section on criticism and controversy. not everyone loves him. Manic Hispanic 09:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I resent that. There should be a criticisms section for Obama period. Manic Hispanic 09:00, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
Not only does he get a free ride in the media he is getting a free ride from Wikipedia editors. It's a crime the Rezko real estate deal is not mentioned in this article. That debacle merits mention. Manic Hispanic 23:34, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
I seriously question the relevance of this, unless it can be proved that CNN etc. did it intentionally.-- Pharos 22:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Intent may never be found, and, in-fact may not have been intentional, but the relevancy lies in the reality of a political race, how media on one or both sides of a perceived political aisle can subtly paint a picture one way or another to bias or promote a candidate. The NY Post is not known for it lack of political bias, just as the NY Times has been accused of being left, and the Washington Times to the right. Voters will decide on a candidate for a variety of reasons from actual abilities and experiences to the low and dirty aspects of race, religion, color, etc. While the latter is an unfortunate truth, they are factors; and the factors that are used are always relevant to a balanced story. Juda S. Engelmayer 23:00, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Juda S. Engelmayer 23:35, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Hi all. I'm a lazy browswer who wants his platform handed to me in a nice easy to read table. I think a platform is a list of issues and his stance on them. From broad things like the budget to foreign affairs, down to specific things like the removal of 10-commandment statues and tax-breaks for gay couples. I know this is kinda hard, but I have faith in you guys. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 64.238.49.65 ( talk) 22:55, 20 February 2007 (UTC).
I requested another semi-protect for this page. It's undergone way too much vandalism by anon IPs ever since it was unprotected. -- Ubiq 03:31, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Foxnews used the Kennedy comparison today. He reminds me of JFK in some ways, he is handsome, youthful (JFK was one of our youngest Presidents) and something about his personality reminds me of JFK. A similar charisma leavened with sensitivity.
67.42.243.184 19:21, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
I've read at some Dutch news sites that Mr. Obama is being called the black Kennedy? Anyone knows if that is true, because i haven't read anything about it on American sites —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.105.35.109 ( talk • contribs).
"But Obama is not Kennedy."
"Bobby Kennedy grew up studying how to use America's power, and in his forties he began to venture out and notice its imperfections. Barack Obama came up in a study of those flaws, and now, thrust into a position of power in his forties, is trying to figure out what to do with it."
It was a very good article, and I can understand their comparisons and contrasts. 68.66.168.91 18:29, 21 February 2007 (UTC) Jackie 68.66.168.91 18:30, 21 February 2007 (UTC)Jackie P.
A controversy section should be added that deals with: the madrassa "scandal"/"slander" however you want to look at that issue. It should also include the controversy of his statement regarding "wasted lives" in referring to US casualties in Iraq. Further, it should talk about the various issues regarding some people asserting he is african american and others the assert he is not. Another possibility is any opinions he might have that might be contraindicated by his religion, as I think he has a few. Ernham 19:04, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Possible material I'm aware of fitting of a controvery section:
I believe a controversy section is warranted, as few of these lend themselves to being randomly injected here and there. Ernham 23:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
Why are so many editors so reluctent to make Obama look bad in any way. Many politicians have an extensive criticism/controversies section i.e Hillary Clinton and George Bush etc. It is unfair to them for Obama to be exempt. Many people have brought up valid criticism's/controversies that should be included. It is amazing the Tony Rezco real estate deal is not mentioned in this article. Manic Hispanic 04:49, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
What is everyone's thoughts of using Werdnabot to archive this page? This page is getting a lot of activity and it will only get "worse" the farther into the campaign we get. -- Bobblehead 01:15, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Here's a good video clip of Obama denying interest in 2004 in running for President. [3] Should a note be made of this, just a sentence, in the Presidential section? --Zz414 15:51, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
There is a sentence in the presidential section saying "Obama first said he had 'thought about the possibility' of running for president, departing from earlier statements that he intended to serve out his six-year Senate term through 2010." - PoliticalJunkie 16:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The current wording is fine, and not in any way subtle or covert. Trying to over-emphasize his impression of his presidential chances back in 2004, instead of focusing on more recent quotes, could be construed as undue weight. Italiavivi 03:51, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
Hello folks, Im one of the regular mediators. I anticipate much more discussion on this article, and as such I want to try an experiment for a high-traffic controversial topic talk page, (this seems to qualify). The idea is to organize the talk page according to a topic-based system, archiving the discussion in a topical way, rather than just in a linear way.
The first thing to do would be to work out a system for doing this. The basic system would be a topical list at the top, which link to subpages titled after the major issues relevant to this article. There are of course some potential problems with people editing other peoples comments - the important rule must be to be principled and consistent - making linkages to specific archive sections.
Im curious how this sounds to people. Please offer your feedback at Talk:Barack Obama/Organisation. - Ste| vertigo 09:08, 19 February 2007 (UTC)
Well, this seems well-intentioned, and could be useful, but my initial reaction is that we have enough to do to keep the article itself organized and I for one don't relish having to think about where and how I post my comments on Talk. But I'm certainly interested in listening to how it would work, and who would maintain it. If I understand you correctly - having read this very quickly - this would take talk page comments and categorize them but leave them in place as well? Who decides?
Tvoz |
talk 04:04, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
He said on MSNBC that he was part Arab also his father and step-father were muslum.
This Arab heritage idea is erroneous until someone can prove otherwise. Dogru144 18:11, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I changed the word "conversely" to "on the other hand", exact same meaning but I liked the sound better. Plus, Crouch's comment is rather shocking, and almost the only critical comment in the whole article, and I thought people needed to take a pause before they read it, hence the four word expression. Besides that, "conversely" is not a word which most people use very much. Does anyone have any other ideas for improving this sentence? Thanks. Steve Dufour 14:08, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
"conversely" (adverb) with the terms of the relation reversed see http://www.onelook.com/?w=conversely -- HailFire 18:06, 21 February 2007 (UTC)
I see that "conversely" has been put back. The sentence just before the one about Crouch's statement reads: "Another article in The Nation analyzed Obama's ability to "transcend race" with white audiences." I am not sure if what Crouch said is exactly "converse" to this. On the other hand, it is a "contrary opinion". Steve Dufour 07:22, 22 February 2007 (UTC)
If you would like to take out the quote itself that would be fine with me. It is just one guy's opinion.
Steve Dufour 05:07, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I rarely ever hear the word conversely, even on television. Contrarily is fine, IMO. Shakam 05:24, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
Why is this so important? -- Calibas 21:59, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
I fully move protected the article after noticing a bit of move vandalism today. I don't think there's any reason to ever move this article. I didn't change the article's semi protection. · j e r s y k o talk · 04:59, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
We have this box, appropriately, in the section on his Presidential race. I do not think we need it on top as well - most of the page - his early life, education, his Illinois legislature years, his Senate campaign and service, his books, etc - are not subject to the rapid changes that the Presidential section is, and that the box addresses. I don't particularly see the need for the box in any case, but I can live with it in the Presidential race section, not on top of the whole article. Also ok with me if it's in the separate Presidential campaign article. I removed it from the top and it was instantly reverted - I removed it again and asked for this to be discussed in talk. Anyone else have an opinion on this? Tvoz | talk 08:24, 25 February 2007 (UTC)
The "popular culture" section is mostly political commentary. Nothing wrong with political commentary on a presidential candidate, but it should be labelled as such. So you don't all have to go looking, I would consider the Oprah appearance to be pop culture, the Time cover to be borderline. But NYT (Brooks), Daily News (Crouch), and WSJ (Noonan) columnists, along with his own book, can hardly be considered "pop culture" references. Can we move those into a different section? I would consider Obama in pop culture to be his appearance on Monday Night Football, the satire they just did on 30 Rock, and maybe his appearance on The Daily Show or any late night talk shows. Entertainment versus politics. -- Mykll42 22:22, 25 February 2007 (UTC) (Whoops... sorry)
"Cultural and political image" works for now. And, I agree, his popular culture image is of limited notability compared to his political image. Mykll42 06:56, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
Culture is a suitably broad term that encompasses both an appearance on Oprah and how he is viewed by political commentators. A section on just his political image wouldn't necesarily include that and it is notable given her cultural influence. I'm going to guess you were joking about the political image thing. Mykll42 07:24, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
No mention of mixed marriage regarding his parents or birth. Is this irrelevant in 2007? Surely with some people saying he's "not black enough", this is relevant. ObamaNation 04:47, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
As seen at his site and online store. [4] Any idea what the copyright status on this campaign logo with regard to Wikipedia use would be? Have past articles made use of campaign yard signs/bumper stickers or logos? Italiavivi 18:31, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Aside from the senate campaign sign here on Obama's article, Ken Salazar's old Senate election logo is used at his article, with a Fair Use claim on the image itself. Hillary Clinton has the same, with her "Hillary" logo. I know George W. Bush used a stylized "W" logo for some campaign material, but can't find that one in use on Wikipedia anywhere. Italiavivi 19:28, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
Unarchiving this section since the one below it covers the same area.-- Bobblehead 00:04, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Fair use images are required to contribute substantially to the article. Can anyone justify the substantial contribution of Image:Obama 08.JPG and Image:Barack Obama campaign logo.JPG. Perhaps those of you with connections to the campaign could have them release the images under an acceptable licence if they want them included. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:32, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia's fair use policy is quite clear. In the event that free use images exist, they are always preferred over fair use images. We have not been able to confirm what parts of Obama's website are covered under CC, and, based on their Flickr photostream, it would not be compatible with Wikipedia anyway (they are presently released using the NC clause). I'm very sad my pictures from the Austin rally didn't come out very well so I can't contribute :( — bbatsell ¿? ✍ 18:15, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
So If the problem is getting the images as free use... is there anyone in here who works on the campaign? Or does someone want to contact the campaign? All the new candidates seems to be falling over themselves to be internet friendly I wouldn't be surprised if they would release the campaign images with a license that works here. After all it can't hurt. (I am willing to write the campaign if no one else has closer ties). -- Rtrev 05:29, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
We should strive to obtain some free example of the campaign material and the non-free images don’t seem particularly original or important. However, I don’t understand why the Time cover was removed; to appear on the cover of Time is definitely significant. Additionally, the image was doing a good job of representing the press coverage as a whole (again due to the magazine’s cover’s importance) and I don’t see from where a free replacement could come that would be similarly representative. — xyzzy n 11:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Here is a story which says that a majority of blacks now support Obama: [6] I'm not sure how to put in into the article however. Steve Dufour 17:33, 4 March 2007 (UTC)
Editors of this article may be interested in this Flickr photo set, which has a lot of decent pictures of Obama and is compatibly licensed.-- ragesoss 06:27, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
Because his father is Barack H. Obama, Sr, is his official birth certificate name "Barack Hussein Obama, Junior"? Steveprutz 18:52, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
I've restored this line: In February 1990, the New York Times reported his election as the Harvard Law Review's "first black president in its 104-year history." As per earlier talk, it is safest to name the source and use an exact quotation where terms "black" or "African American" are given. Also, HLR is a journal, not a newspaper as the recent edit stated. Lastly, I think no "The" flows better here before New York Times. Though I realize it is an open debate, I think we should put the readers first, and keep the prose as easy to follow as possible given that this sentence is already loaded. Hope others agree. -- HailFire 10:33, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
There are now reports that his mother's ancestors owned slaves. This could be embarrassing to Obama, so I propose that we immediately delete any edits that mention this. Ogeez 20:16, 2 March 2007 (UTC)
We don't have a choice of who our ancestors, or even our parents, are; so, why would this be important? He didn't choose to have slave-owning ancestors. shakam
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash6.htm
Less than two months after ascending to the U.S. Senate, Barack Obama bought more than $50,000 worth of stock in two speculative companies whose major investors included some of his biggest political donors, the NYT will splash on Wednesday Page Ones.
The paper claims, according to newsroom sources: One of the companies was a biotech concern that was starting to develop a drug to treat avian flu. In March 2005, two weeks after buying about $5,000 of its shares, Obama took the lead in a legislative push for more federal spending to battle the disease.
The paper's Mike McIntire and Chris Drew get front placement [side by side with Libby Coverage] for details of Obama's most recent financial disclosure:
It shows that he bought more than $50,000 in stock in a satellite communications business whose principal backers include four friends and donors who had raised more than $150,000 for his political committees.
A spokesman for Obama says the senator did not know that he had invested in either company.
Impacting late...
As this story develops, its just might, might merit mention along with the Tony Rezko deal. Obama could kill someone and you libs wouldn't mention it, because it's not "relevent" or "npov". What part of "all sum of human knowledge" don't you administrators on a power trip understand. Because you power abusers think it's trivial doesn't make it so, notability is subjective. It's hilarious how glossed over he is, no negative mentions of him at all, and yet it's featured, that's the plutocracy wikipedia for you. Wikitruth is right. Spare me the same lame excuses you give everyone not kissing Obama's ass. Manic Hispanic 06:26, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
This is not one of the best articles on wikipedia, that's a joke. Whatever I know nothing short of <
WP:BLP violation removed> will get him negative criticism from you holy editors.
Manic Hispanic 04:48, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
Civility should not be applied to politics. And you give me WP:BLP. Well all I have to say is this article violates NPOV because it is slanted towerds the postive, and anyone who attempts to interject any criticism, or issues that are controvorsial, is quickly silenced and there edits reverted. This page is full of Obama hawks with the intent to silence dissenters. Manic Hispanic 06:03, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
When was the semiprotection status removed? I signed on after a few hours and saw a tennis match of racial epithets and gorilla pictures on a Senator's page. Mykll42 03:04, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Apparently, nothing is also enough. This latest restoration of sprot was blatantly preemptive. IP blocking was not even tried. I have changed to the sprot template that warns unregistered users that their contributions are not welcome on this page. We could do better than this. -- HailFire 01:01, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The sprot issue is a moot point. The dictators who rule this article immediately delete almost everything posted by an IP user anyway. Ogeez 05:02, 7 March 2007 (UTC
He and his wife are members of an Afrocentric African-separatist church, Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ. The church's website [8] describes the church's predominantly race-based belief system as follows:
"Trinity United Church of Christ adopted the Black Value System written by the Manford Byrd Recognition Committee chaired by Vallmer Jordan in 1981. We believe in the following 12 precepts and covenantal statements. These Black Ethics must be taught and exemplified in homes, churches, nurseries and schools, wherever Blacks are gathered. They must reflect on the following concepts:
1. Commitment to God
2. Commitment to the Black Community
3. Commitment to the Black Family
4. Dedication to the Pursuit of Education
5. Dedication to the Pursuit of Excellence
6. Adherence to the Black Work Ethic
7. Commitment to Self-Discipline and Self-Respect
8. Disavowal of the Pursuit of "Middleclassness"
9. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the Black Community
10. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting Black Institutions
11. Pledge allegiance to all Black leadership who espouse and embrace the Black Value System
12. Personal commitment to embracement of the Black Value System."
Obama is more correctly referred to as an African-African-American. Contemporary use of the term African-American refers to those Americans of African descent that trace their heritage to the black experience in America before the 20th century. Being that neither his maternal, nor his paternal heritage can claim such an experience, makes calling him African-American extreme disinformation. - JC
He's African and he's American, thus he's African American. 23:30 February 21, 200 - Fentoro
My God this is a stupid title. Most African Americans have some White ancestry and 1 out of 6 White Americans have some non-White ancestry. You know what-- he is 100% American, Can we get over this idiocy and focus on what the man has to offer as a potential President?
Commitment to the black community, the black family, the black work ethic, another reference to the black community, black leadership, black value system. This isn't racism?? Has very little to do with Obama, but if I started a Caucaso-Centric church based on promoting the white community and white leaders, you think people would let it slide as easily? Gosh, this country's messed up. Regardless, who cares if he's an African-American, an African-African-American, African, or American? Does it really matter?
67.42.243.184 19:13, 11 February 2007 (UTC)
He is a mulatto, or mixed race, which ever you prefer.
Ernham 01:32, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Then it would be superfluous to have the words "mulatto" and "mixed-race" if the aren't really definitive. I know one thing for sure, if/when the exploratory committee decides he should run, the article should read, "If elected, he would be the first African-American (I know I'm not going to win this on here so I guess I'll let you all have your little fun), as well as the first biracial president." Shakam 06:29, 9 February 2007 (UTC)
Part of his importance is that he is a black (as that word is defined in the USA) American. The opening paragraph only quotes the Senate Historical Office on his African American-ness. Steve Dufour 18:08, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
We'll just see what happens on 2/10. Shakam 05:06, 10 February 2007 (UTC)
So, he can call himself African American, even if he's not? Seriously, he's half white, half black. He's no more African American, than he is white. How do you think people would react if he called himself white? It's amazing how reverse racism works. Anyone can call themselves African American, while it's a crime to be white.
You can't compare what a person chooses to be, to how a person is born. Bad analogy. Shakam
To be more specific for those who don't want to go back through the archives themselves or muck through the WP manual of style. Look at WP:STYLE#Identity as well as WP:NOR. The somewhat definitive discussion can be seen in the archives please look through them! -- Rtrev 03:19, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
People are too lazy to read the archives, they think they are special and that their input is better than what has already been discussed. This topic has been beaten over and over again (with me a contributing factor.) He is not African-American. How about we move forward in time and not backwards??? shakam 06:14, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
He is not african-american in the way the term is used in the united states, which is in fact unique, just like the sun does not revolve around the earth. Any "debate" that came to a contrary conclusion is not worth my time to read through. Ernham 17:59, 15 February 2007 (UTC)
According to the American Heritage dictionary an african american is "a Black American with African ancestry". He's african, he's american, he's an african american. Slightly off topic, why do we call blacks african americans when we don't call white people european americans? -- Calibas 00:58, 20 February 2007 (UTC)
The reality is, if he does in fact want to use the term African American--and we do place that in the lead-- there MUST be a controversy/ criticism establishing that many other African Americans think he is a pretender. If it's not bleated about in the article, then we don't have to include that criticism/controversy. Apparently Barack has even gone as far to defend his usage of the term by claiming "decendents of slaves and recent african immigrants have a lot in common ", a mind bogglingly ridiculous statement if I ever heard one. Ernham 17:48, 24 February 2007 (UTC)
Maybe he is called AA because America still lives in the immediate, centennial-past? (rhetorical, don't bother responding) Shakam 04:11, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
Didn't Stephen Colbert interview a women who said Barack is not an African American? While I think he is an African American, and so does the dictionary, a fair amount of published material says he isnt; just do a quick web search and you'll find some of it. I think you should make either a controversy section about his racial identity here, or make or find an article which covers the debate over what is the proper defenition of African American, and put a link to it here. For the record, I am for refering to Barack as an African American in this article, as he fits the dictionary defenition of being one, and it is fairly linear and unblamable to accept the dictionary as the final authority on all questions of what words mean. Some people might argue that Bush is not the president of the United States, because he didn't get more votes then Gore in Florida, or the popular vote. They deserve to be mentioned in wikipedia; it is not proper however that because of their opinions, wikipedia does not flatly call Bush president in his article, and where relevant.-Somebody
Having taken a glance at the article, I really don't think it would fit it, to have an section about the debate over whether or not Barack Obama is an African American or not. A sentence could be slipped in, or a link which goes to an article covering the debate over what the proper citerion are for being an African American.-Somebody —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Frelt ( talk • contribs).
Could those looking to change how african-american or black is used in Wikipedia articles please start by focusing on articles with less noteworthy individuals. I would be much more likely to support a change if a number of other articles were changed in a way that went against how individuals identified themselves as black, and instead started assigning them non-black labels. This is not the article to be having that debate about. Frankly I think that this idea of telling people of a certain race or ethnicity that they don't fit the wikipedia version of that race is going to be a tricky business, and would suggest that it start elsewhere.
Here we have Salon's Debra Dickerson [12] and NY Daily News' Stanley Crouch [13] both raising the issue of Obama's "blackness." Can we accept that Obama's race is indeed a matter of controversy, with regard to blacks in America and calling himself "African-American"? Two reliable sources, both black columnists, mind you. I'm having trouble with arguments against notability being used on this article, at this point. Italiavivi 19:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)
The carpetbagging black Republican Alan Keyes opened up this racialist can of worms when he opposed Mr. Obama in the Illinois Senate race back in 2004. Badly outmatched and reaching for any brick he could find, Mr. Keyes blurted out that Mr. Obama was not black because he was not descended from slaves. The Daily News columnist Stanley Crouch later seemed to second that view, saying that Mr. Obama had not “lived the life of a black American.”
A minority of any action volunteers automatically all the distinguishing features of that minority. Should the minority be human, then colour, speech, education, and roots, are going to prejudice each of us, according to our own unique background. Obama is black; being black will be mentioned. Obama is university educated; being university educated will be mentioned. Obama smokes; being a smoker will be mentioned. All the demarcations will come out that we can imagine, because he is part of an American minority. Similarly with those in a majority, but the restraint of exposing every nuance is in effect. Clinton is white; being white is not mentioned, while other demarcations are. What I mean by all of this is that African-American, black, et al, is going to get plenty of, inevitable, exposure in the press and public. Time to acknowledge that reality and not be slowed by any further opinion on it. -- Free4It 00:16, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
The article refers to Obama raising money for a 2010 campaign - surely this should be 2008? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 81.129.102.19 ( talk) 05:40, 11 March 2007 (UTC).
The Democratic presidential debate in Nevada was cancelled because the chairman of Fox News made a joke about the words "Obama" and "Osama" sounding similar. [15] This is notable. Together with the CNN "Where's Obama?" headline, [16] this merits a section about people confusing the two names. Ogeez 08:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
The article could be improved by adding links to non-American articles and media coverage. 172.146.15.93 06:20, 15 March 2007 (UTC)
This was debunked rather well at snopes.com, at the link below. The opening paragraph of the Wiki page on Obama states that he is the only practicing muslim in the Senate. No where else in the article is it mentioned.
http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/muslim.asp
See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpauX35gwYo for more details.
Today's edits by one user has seen a deletion to a paragraph with citations in it. Cited material should not be deleted without discussion on a talkpage. Ronbo76 20:23, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
I've had stuff deleted even if there was a citation. There was no discussion about it, just someone deleting it. Therefore, a citation does not prevent deletion. We need to clean up the article and eliminate irrelavent stuff. So what if Obama cosponsored a bill. Senators do that thousands of times during their senate term. What is relevant is if Obama's bill is passed as was the case in the Congo bill. Also relevant is if he has a bill jointly with the GOP, such as with Senator McCain. Also revelant is when he submits a bill about his pet subject, withdrawal in Iraq.
Why is the pastor that married him so important. It just detracts from Obama. Why not list which airlines he's an elite frequent flyer or what brand of tires he uses? Dereks1x 20:35, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
For example, "In September 2006, Obama supported a related bill, the Secure Fence Act, authorizing construction of fencing and other security improvements along the United States–Mexico border." under the legislation section. He simply voted on the bill. This is not newsworthy. 80 senators voted for the bill. The bill was not Obama's idea. If he wrote a bill with McCain, that's worthy of wikipedia. If he has a pet issue, such as not fighting in Iraq, that's worthy of mention. If you mention a bill that he voted yes or no, then you should list all the hundreds of bills that he voted on. If one includes the Secure Fence Act trying to fool the reader to thinking that it's Obama's idea, this is fraud. For a neutral viewpoint, I think the sentence should be deleted. If not deleted, there should be a note that Obama was simply voted on the measure, one of hundreds of votes, and that it wasn't his idea. Dereks1x 20:09, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Hhhmm...Failure to pay a parking ticket. What a monster.
128.138.173.224 06:40, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
So, are the fascist dictator Obama hawks guarding this page going to oppress this very noteworthy information [17] [18] [19], too? Italiavivi 23:20, 8 March 2007 (UTC)
The man had to also drink his victim's blood for your noteworthiness? Truth be that all of these aspects [smoking, ticket trespasses, law school flaunting,] have an undeniable influence in our personal assessment of the man; but, not any of it needs concrete exposure in an encyclopedia. -- Free4It 00:01, 9 March 2007 (UTC)
{{editprotected}} The caption for 20060926 p092606kh-0093-515h.jpg should read "only Tom Coburn's hair is visible behind Rep. Henry Waxman of California." —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Bradywahl ( talk • contribs).
Picture was swapped by HailFire for another one where Coburn is visible, so this is now moot Tvoz | talk 07:19, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Dereks1x - I am sure you mean well in your editing of Barack Obama, but there is a problem with the way you are doing it. Some of your edits are not careful, and introduce errors in language and wording; some of them are taking an article that many editors have worked hard to keep NPOV and making it less so. Also the article has been given featured status, and we have recently undergone a review of that featured status, and one of the criteria is stability - that means, once wording has been established for sections that are not current events, for example, editors are supposed to try to keep that wording as it is without making lots of changes. His early life, for example, has been gone over and over and the wording is fair, accurate, and not changing, so there's no need to edit it further beyond an occasional tweak. Also the reference style has been under scrutiny and editors have worked hard to keep it consistent and in compliance with standards. PLease believe me when I tell you that the regular editors on this article are diligent and non-partisan. We're not pushing any agenda, pro or anti the Senator regarding his Presidential ambition. What we want is for there to be a fair article, with a reasonable level of detail but not too much - that's another issue in Featured status - with reliable references, and a consistent style. If anyone has ideas for additions or major changes, we try to discuss them on the Talk page before implementing them. I'm asking you, then, to do that. I'm speaking for myself here - as one editor of the page - and one of the ones who has reverted some of your multiple edits yesterday and today. It's very time consuming to do this over and over - you are today reinstating things that were removed yesterday. Please stop doing that and come over to talk instead and say why you think your changes are needed, and I assure you that fair changes will get a fair hearing. I'm posting this on your user talk page and on Talk:Barack Obama where it can be discussed more. I hope you don't take offense, and I hope you will be a cooperative editor on this highly-visible featured article. Thank you. Tvoz | talk 21:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Ok, didn't know it was a featured article Dereks1x 21:20, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
And also, please don't edit other people's entries on article talk pages. Tvoz | talk 21:36, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
"Senator Obama has taken positive steps to eliminate actions which might be deemed improper. In an agreement with his wife, Obama agreed to stop smoking in exchange for her helping him run.[99] He has said that he will only invest in mutual funds or money market accounts after critics accused him of buying individual stocks which would benefit from government funding that Obama was proposing.[100] Obama also paid 15 parking tickets which were issued to him 17 years ago.[101]"
This is an absurd paragraph and I removed it. Is he stopping smoking because it "might be deemed improper"? Gee, I would have thought it was a health issue. Or maybe an image issue. But not a matter of propriety. And neither of the other two items are notable. Even consensus on your own "survey" here (a method I don't particularly subscribe to because we don't do these things by vote) says they are not notable or we should wait and see. NOne of this belongs in the article. If people insist on including something about his trying to stop smoking - and the importance of this escapes me - then come up with some better wording than that it mught be deemed improper. My opinion, as a long time editor of this article, is that including it gives it undue weight, and I see no need for it at all. There is a whole lot that has been left off of this article, for space reasons, and because you can't include every detail. This is one I'd pass on. Tvoz | talk 09:43, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Since I was dragged into this (kicking and screaming while on a wikibreak, no less), the above is not a poll. It's structured discussion. A poll looks like this:
In my example, no discussion is taking place, just a straight up head count. Those types of polls, in the absence of other discussion, are pretty much not permitted on Wikipedia, and not through an essay, but through a pretty clear guideline:
WP:!VOTE. I imagine Tvoz originally placed it under that section because the added paragraph incorporated a good portion of the issues discussed there, and not to personally attack your efforts, Italiavivi. Can we put this behind us and keep moving forward on discussing and writing the article at hand?
—
bbatsell
¿?
✍ 22:09, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
ok, you win. We'll let the sharp reader click the links and figure out that Punahou School is a very expensive and famous school and we'll let the point slip by the dull reader by not commenting on how great the school is. Frankly, I think that is being biased, not neutral, but I'll let it slide. Dereks1x 20:12, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying this description from http://www.punahou.edu/page.cfm?p=11 ("About Punahou", 2nd paragraph) -- HailFire 07:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Is there any good reason we can't link to Luo (Kenya and Tanzania)? Personally, I think that's one of the most interesting articles that someone reading this page could stumble upon.-- Pharos 05:43, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Trying this. -- HailFire 07:15, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems to me that this section is irrelevant with the exception of the African trip and the HIV test. Other senator's wikipedia article do not have a official travel section. This may be because long time senators have made many trips. In the interest of neutrality, the trip section should NOT be there IF the purpose is to falsely convince the reader that the Senator is well travelled and therefore qualified in foreign policy (I must add that I am not saying this is the case). In the interest of fairness to other senator's articles, the official trip section should not be there unless the trip is newsworthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x ( talk • contribs) 03:25, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
How come no mention of how the fact his ancestors OWNED slaves could hurt his campaign image? Just an interesting though [1]. Jmlk17 16:57, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't wiki be neutral and allow neutrally worded descriptions of controversies about Obama. If you don't have this, then wiki is not being neutral but hiding information. North Korea and Iran are countries that hide information from the public and Wikipedia is not a mouthpiece of North Korea. Do you favor neutrally worded mention of controversies in a new section or do you favor censorship like in North Korea? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x ( talk • contribs) 20:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC).
That's a good question. Let's vote on it. Please vote "Neutral worded" or "North Korea." I'll start.
Neutral worded: I agree that wikipedia should embrace free speech instead of North Korea style censorship.
Ogeez 18:05, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
My side won several of the votes on Obama controversies. What should we do about this now? We need to write about his smoking, blackness, dispute with Australia PM, and Fox News madrassa expose. Ogeez 00:18, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean your "side"? Also, the madrassa one is tied. Jiffypopmetaltop 00:46, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Also it's not a vote. See WP:NOT#DEMOCRACY which is, by the way, official policy, not an opinion essay. Tvoz | talk 05:02, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I find your use of "my side" highly suspicious, Ogeez. Jiffy wasn't being a troll, so I wouldn't refer to him as that. The madrassah smear job by Fox News has its own article already. The criticism from Australian PM has already been noted. I'm sure the quit smoking with Obama thing will be in there soon, if it's not already. Doesn't look like there's much work left to do. -- Ubiq 01:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Censorship of controversies is not being neutral, the hallmark of wikipedia. That's like omiting all mention of Watergate in a Nixon article or Whitewater in a Clinton article. Perhaps there could be a section under controversies near the end and just bullets with a description and a neutral analysis. Dereks1x 02:58, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
Hey what happened? It used to be bigger! There was a section on occupation, which said "attorney, law instructor" and some other info.
Anyone remember what it said? If it's good, why not replace it?! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.212.111.238 ( talk) 19:26, 21 March 2007 (UTC).
Hi all, first time that i write on a discussion and i'm not so good with english :) The question is: i see that Rudy Giuliani has his {{tl|Future election candidate}} template on the top of the article, why there's no such thing on Obama's? I see that Obama's article is blocked too, why did you choose not to place the template {{ protected}}? Not a criticism at all, just to know!-- bs ( talk) 18:36, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
I didn't notice that obama's was just semi-protected (i didn't know enwiki way to flag protected and semi-protected pages, actually). Thank you Tvoz!-- bs ( talk) 17:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
What do you think? From Obama's Past: An Old Classmate, A Surprising Call, Wall Street Journal, Vol. CCXLIX No. 68, March 23, 2007, p.A1
I think #2 and #3 are not relevant unless you want to modify the reference to Punahou school being "exclusive". It really it exclusive. That's now verified by the Wall St. Journal and about half a million Hawaiians can vouch for that. It's no surprise because the race to the Prez is tough. You need help like Punahou or Phillips Academy like the Bushs. MLK High in the inner city is not good enough. That's just life.
Obama's former law firm was described in the article as "civil rights law firm". This is biased so it's against wikipedia policy. It's also false. The firm does a whole lot of plaintiff stuff. Originally, I summarized it in one phrase. However, someone edited it out. As a compromise, I placed a link and just refered to it as a law firm.
Before people edited out the description of Punahou School as being well respected. If you're going to edit that out, then you should agree that "civil rights" law firm should also be edited out. There's an even stronger case because Punahou is well respected (no dispute) but it's a lie to say that the firm is primarly a civil rights law firm. Furthermore, wiki editors said people could just click the link to Punahou to see how good it is. The same now goes for the law firm.
The neutral POV is not to lie and mischaracterize the law firm. Either describe it in its entiretly (got edited out) or give a link and just describe it as a law firm. Dereks1x 21:32, 18 March 2007 (UTC)
Rather than a blanket (and somewhat vague and inaccurate) one word characterization of his law practice, more specifics were added. For example, a reference was added to pre-existing text in the article backing up the notion that he did employment cases and some voting issues. Also he continued to work part time after being a state senator, he did not quit as the old wikipedia version implies. Everything is neutrally worded. Someone (Bobbelhead) reverted the change....please don't do this especially because the old version was less specific and less accurate. Dereks1x 18:41, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
There's no evidence that he's board certified in civil rights. Attorneys can be board certified in a number of areas. Furthermore, employment cases, his main work, is not necessarily civil rights cases. One can sue for wrongful termination for many reasons. The current wording makes presumptions. It is more accurate to just say what kind of work he did, i.e. employment, voting, rather than a blanket statement of being a civil rights attorney doing employment and voting. That's like saying "GWB is an environmental president who was president during the cleanup of the World Trade Center". The first part of the phrase is opinion, the second is fact. The same goes for Obama's description. Dereks1x 18:55, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Calm down, Tvoz!!! User: Human Thing did not call you an Obama supporter or anti-Obama person. See "without commenting on Tvoz' political beliefs...." The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dereks1x 14:27, 24 March 2007
After reading this subsection, I merely wanted to note that I believe certain editors are confusing Wikipedia's verifiability and no original research policies with the non-existent truth policy. That's it. · j e r s y k o talk · 21:53, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
I think the latest Tvox revision is close enough for a compromise. It doesn't give him the blanket term "civil rights lawyer" which is too close to "civil rights leader" which is what MLK is. Obama is no MLK. However, it does refer to his civil rights caseload. A small suggestion and revision, however. Not everyone knows what an associate lawyer does so a modifier, sort of a descriptive phrase, is appropriate. On the positive side, it shows that the guy is a team player, not a prima donna that insists on talking in court. The preceding comment was entered by User: Dereks1x.
It smacks on original research when you expect people to read the jobs an attorney link and think that's what Obama did. Furthermore, the link is flawed because there is no evidence that Obama wrote wills, trusts, deeds, real estate closings, derived a solution, disbursement of settlement funds, or other things that the wikipedia link says.
Since you don't like the truth, i.e. that he did not participate in any trials, I think that can slide providing it's mentioned what he did...contracts, briefs, etc.
This is done in the spirit of compromise, i.e. ok, you can delete the phrase I put in this morning but don't delete other older stuff. In wikipedia, you're supposed to revise as oppose to delete, when possible. I can (and did) compromise, can you? Dereks1x 23:32, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
Should we do a write-up on the "1984" ad produced by the Obama campaign? That must be the awesomest political ad ever. Ogeez 14:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
Consensus seems to be (and I agree) that if this is included at all, it be in the separate presidential election article, so I am removing it from the main article where it was placed today. Tvoz | talk 06:30, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
...the Islamic/Sufi word " Barakah," which roughly means (according to the article) "spiritual wisdom and blessing transmitted from God," "divine presence," " grace," " charisma," etc. Since his father was a Muslim this makes sense, that his first name is an Arabic word/Muslim concept. Do you all think that this warrants a mention in the article? Mr. Obama is quite well known for his personal " charisma," I believe, so it's interesting that this is sort-of what his first name means. -- WassermannNYC 01:30, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
does seem to have its roots in the Arabic barakah. -- Saforrest 03:07, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
HELLO! Hebrew and Arabic are closely related (both Semitic languages). "Baruch" and "Barakah" are obviously closely related terms, as both mean roughly "blessing" (and similar terms: grace, charisma, divine favor/presence, etc). Seeing as his father came from a Muslim background (and thus likely had at least some familiarity with Arabic), there's no doubt the root of Obama's name is from the Arabic word Barakah [NOTE: sometiems spelled differently], and NOT from the Hebrew word " Baruch" because his father was likely to have MUCH more familiarity with Arabic rather than Hebrew. Also, didn't Obama briefly study at a Muslim school in Indonesia? There we would no doubt have been learning ARABIC, and not Hebrew. -- WassermannNYC 10:32, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
his name is closer to barakah than baruch, and i've heard thats where his name came from.-- Lerdthenerd 10:01, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the direction this article is taking. My inclusion of the Arabic spelling of Obama's name has come under a lot of fire that I find hard to understand. It occurs to me that the reason, perhaps, is that the powers that be in this article's editing are worried about the political consequences of including the name. I'm sure it's obvious why that worries me. I want to make it clear that this is not a political statement. I'm not especially political myself, and haven't looked too much into the 2008 election. At the same time, it's important to provide information to those seeking it. We have a responsibility to the readership to provide such information. If my content were false or irrelevant, it would make sense to remove it -- but it isn't. He is and American of African lineage, yes, but his name is, without question, of Arabic origin. I can attest to a potential reader's interest in the Arabic spelling because I myself was interested in it when I saw the article. When I ran across the article, I noticed that the Arabic spelling was missing, found it, and added it. I realize that there's not much I can do to keep the Arabic script in the article if people with much more time than I are constantly watching over it. I have neither the ability nor the interest in engaging in such an edit war. I'm asking that those who object to its inclusion consider their own reasons in light of the mission of Wikipedia. If they would only do this, I have no doubt that they would see why my contribution deserves mention in the article as it was. It's not political, and it's not irrelevant. I understand the wish to protect the article on the part of Obama's supporters, but it's downright irresponsible to withhold relevant information, regardless of what you assume the political consequences might be. Mikehoffman 00:23, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
There is also the Hebrew word " Berakhah" which is of course very similar to both " Barakah" (Arabic) and " Baruch" (Hebrew). -- 172.132.140.158 08:25, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be moved to Barack Hussein Obama Bluppiblu 23:01, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's get the facts straight about Mr. Obama. He is a Freshman Senator, not a Junior Senator as you have clearly written, with hyper-text, in the first sentence of your facts paragraph. Do not make this man out for more than he is, he has next to zero national political experience yet all you people want is to make him President. Two years and two months, please he hasn't even been in office a full term, nor has he even run a state, let alone the United States. Why is it too, that the media does not talk about his Islamic up-bringing or is that to sensitive. I'm sure the Obamaites will whip-up some sort of spin to keep selling a poor bill of goods, but I wouldn't expect anything less. Chrispb-72 18:45, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
"The Fox News and Insight Magazine reports were debunked and FNC admitted their mistake." -I believe the claim here is that he was REGISTERED as a muslim in two of his elementary schools, regardless of the nature of the school itself. Has this claim been debunked and if so please cite a source. 129.98.225.131 15:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes it is more recent, but it is also closer to his policitical career which might make his current affiliation with the Christian religion suspect as a means to cover up his alleged Muslim background as polls show that would hurt him greatly in his political life. 68.161.55.96 18:47, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Of course it will not appear because you and the rest of the Obama crew fascists won't allow anything in the article that doesn't scream "Obama in '08". This article is nothing more than a campaigning tool, anything else is deleted immediately.
I will do some research for you this weekend and have a source for you about his registration as an elementary school student this coming Monday. 68.161.55.96 18:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
It's me from the last comment on another computer Here is the source I promised: The following is a link to a Los Angeles Times story dated March 15, 2007. The LA Times is a known pro-Obama newspaper. Here's the article: http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-obama15mar15,0,5315525,full.story
Here is a quote from the article: "His former Roman Catholic and Muslim teachers, along with two people who were identified by Obama's grade-school teacher as childhood friends, say Obama was registered by his family as a Muslim at both of the schools he attended."
Barack was called Barry in Indonesia. And here's what someone who knew him told the LA Times
"His mother often went to the church, but Barry was Muslim. He went to the mosque," Adi said. "I remember him wearing a sarong." This is a valid source and this story should be mentioned in the article. It is very noteworthy as to the canditade's childhood background as this likely shapes his world-view as an adult. The previous unsigned commment was added by User: 69.125.108.189 at 01:56, 2 April 2007
Wow, you Obama campaigners are quite a team. Quite a team indeed. If anyone had any doubt that Obama doesn't have a full time staff monitering this article. All doubt should be erased now.
What a joke -I challenge ANYONE HERE to read this LA Times article and tell me I'm misrepresenting it. Either these people are stupid or fascits. You choose. Read it and then see if you think these fascists are correct when they say that "Everything" in the article is already covered on the wiki page. If this we'ren't such as scandal it would be a laugh.
-but of course I assume good faith, as you guys do too, reverting cited sources in not time flat! Unbeleivable.
I've been trying to word this tidbit in a fair manner, but the more I look at its source (a blog post from RealClearPolitics [23]), the more I have a problem with its reliability. The author, Nathan Gonzales, paraphrases all of Sen. Obama's responses to his questions.
I had mistakenly placed the phrases "uncomfortable with only certain parts of the bill" and "attempts by Republicans to score points" within quotation marks, assuming them to have been Sen. Obama's responses, but now realize that Mr. Gonzales has provided no directly quoted responses from Sen. Obama in his blog post. Due to its origin (a conservative blog), and the fact that it provides none of Sen. Obama's actual responses, I question its reliability as a source for this article. In previous Talk discussion, there was a fairly solid consensus (including from anti-Obama-POV editors) that Obama's past "present" votes were neither extraordinary nor notable. Should this become an issue covered by reliable sources, we can re-visit it later. Italiavivi 22:58, 5 April 2007 (UTC)
Would the fascists who control this article allow some mention of his smoking habit? This been discussed quite a bit in the media and could become a campaign issue. Of course, if we want the article to remain an Obama advertisement, we might want to sweep his nicotine addiction under the rug. Ogeez 19:53, 28 February 2007 (UTC)
Winston Churchill smoked and drank regularly. Hitler did neither. The point being, smoking has nothing to do with leadership capacity and quality. 205.202.240.101 16:33, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the above point.
Ogeez, the article is not "ridiculously pro-Obama biased". You're not doing anything to contribute to this article or wikipedia. You came to the wrong place if you were looking to smear a presidential candidate you don't like. The purpose of an encyclopedia is to include relevant, representative information about something. That's what this article does, and it's a fine example of a good article. The problem with including a lot of the "negative" information you want to be included is, none of it is notable. Read the policy. If he were to say something blatantly racist and there was a public reaction/outcry, such that it generated plenty of note, it would be included in this article, regardless of the political affiliations of the editors. But somehow I don't see him doing something like that, so people who see him as a threat will continue coming here to find out why his article is so "biased". -- Ubiq 02:57, 1 March 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be rad to include a fully contextualized discussion of Obama's smoking including the fact that individuals with lower incomes (working-class) are more likely to smoke than those with higher incomes. Also, why doesn't GWB's page list his cocaine use? Probably it's controlled by "fascists" as well. -- Autumninjersey 18:00, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Smokin' Obama ! Consider the moment when we first learned that Obama smoked. Did it skewer, however briefly, previous thoughts we held of him, whether yea or nay? Probably. Ok, certainly. Now, after becoming aware of such, did our opinions of him become sufficiently altered that our perception of the man took a new form? Probably, not. If we liked him, we continued to like him. If we didn't, then we continued to not. Net effect of all of this is that the smoking issue is, well, just that, an issue for each of us personally. But, is it an issue of encyclopedic proportion. History says no. Current events say yes. If we decide yes, given the current free-flowing content of Wikipedia, then logic guides to mention, for all public figures, their smoking habits [John Brown, smoker; Jane Brown, non-smoker]. Because if the smoking habit of one is sufficient for encyclopedic entry, then the non-smoking habit of another becomes equally necessary. Since no one is prepared to do that, I vote we leave it out [though it bothers me, personally, that he smokes]. -- Free4It 23:01, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
Update: On Larry King Live, March 19, 2007, Barack re-affirmed he is still an ex-smoker - now even more on a non-issue. There is no need to note all the ex-smokers in bios! Samatva 09:41, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree, the fact that he, and the media, keep making it public issue,that he is quitting smoking is certainly worthwhile to put on here Vegeta206 22:27, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps in the meantime someone can edit the article? as it stands, the line about Obama's former smoking habits sounds like an advertisment for nicorette gum. I dont think it's relevant to include what brand of gum he used, or even if he used it at all. 198.186.64.22 00:03, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I still don't know that this paragraph is the best place for the smoking mention. I like the way the sentence is written now, but does it belong in a section on his early life, right next to talk of pot and blow?
Italiavivi 05:05, 8 April 2007 (UTC)