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![]() | Banjica concentration camp was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 8, 2013). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
![]() | Banjica concentration camp was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 10, 2013). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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This claim is not supported by any valid reference
Dragi Jovanovic signed the document to this effect and the first prisoners were brought in on May 9. Svetozar Vujkovic was appointed director of the Serbian part of the camp where there were only Serbian police. The smaller German part was directed by members of the Gestapo[dubious — see talk page]. The commander of the camp and along with his assistant were German. The German and Serbian parts of the camps were completely separate.
The camp was established by Germans and run by Germans. The collaborationists had here just a secondary role. See, for example, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, entry Banjica
{{geodata-check}}
The coordinates are supposed to point to Banjica concentration camp, which is near Belgrade, Serbia. Instead, they seem to point to near Pristina, Kosovo... Looks like a politically motivated "joke" ... :(
— 109.245.184.73 ( talk) 08:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't have a particular opinion whether the article should have a list of notable inmates. Should you want to add it, here's a reliable source (excerpt from this book [1]), which lists:
Additionally, [2] lists Josip Benković, painter (killed in Banjica), and [3] Vlastimir Pavlović Carevac, musician (Banjica erroneously translated as 'tub'). No such user ( talk) 10:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps not a list, but maybe a paragraph titled "Notable inmates" in the "Legacy" section? Also, I'm not really comfortable with all those redlinks and I don't think a GAN reviewer in the future will be, either. Thoughts? 23 editor ( talk) 17:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Aleksandar Belić Miloš Đurić Veljko Petrović Jovan Erdeljanović Aleksandar M. Leko Ivan Đaja Tihomir Đorđević
It is fair to belive that those articles will be translated to english Wikipedia, some day. With regards,-- SadarMoritz ( talk) 22:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
The article should explain why the Germans called it Dedinje and not Banjica. --
Joy [shallot] (
talk) 13:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Done
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Reviewer: PocklingtonDan ( talk · contribs) 16:41, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | I'm having trouble reconcilign some facts in the article: from the lead: "By 1942, most victims were executed at the firing ranges.... 23,697 individuals were detained....At least 3,849 of these perished" 3000 is not "most" of 23000. Can you clarify please? Also, you use the term "firing range" twice, but wikipedia's own article shooting range defines "A shooting range or firing range is a specialized facility designed for firearms practice", which does not seem appropriate. I think you need to reword this. |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | I do not see any MoS concerns. The list of notable prisoners seems reasonable. |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | The references are well laid out and in keeping with the MoS. However, not all the websites and eBooks have retrieval dates, which need adding please. All book refs look to have page numbers given, which is good. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | The article is generally very well cited indeed, for which the editor is to be commended. However, all controversial statements or simply those that are shocking or likely to be challenged require refs, some of the statements in this article currently lack them, eg: " inmates would spend several days in the custody of the Gestapo and in Special Police prisons, where they would be tortured and beaten. By the time they were transferred from these detention centers to Banjica, some of the prisoners would already have displayed signs of serious mutilation.", "He collaborated enthusiastically with the Gestapo" are a few that do really need cites |
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2c. it contains no original research. | I spotted no signs of original research |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | The coverage of the history of the operation of the concentration camp is very good. The coverage either side of this is very weak. How was the site sourced? What was there before? Who built it? What happened afterwards? Was it torn down? Is any part of it left? |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | The article is tightly focused on its topic and does not stray off-topic at all. |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | I'm not sure that I'm happy with the focus on Jews in the lead. The lead reads "23,697 individuals were detained in Banjica throughout the war, including 455 to 688 Jews". If Jews were only 3% of the inmates by your quoted figures, why are you referencing them? Is it not more notable to address the 97%? We need to be neutral, notable and objective here and focus on the scope of this article. This needs changing please, since it is not appropriate as it stands: this is an article on a concentration camp in a general encyclopaedia, not in some register of Jewish deaths. The focus on Jewish deaths is disturbing. I'm not clear if its pro-Jew, or anti-Jew, but it is not neutral, and not appropriate. I also don't like the following wording in the "background" Section: "Upon capturing Belgrade, the Germans ordered the city's 12,000 Jews to report themselves to the occupational authorities; 9,145 of them did so. On 14 May, Jews were removed from all official posts and a series of anti-Jewish laws were passed which prohibited Jews from performing a variety of tasks that ranged from going to restaurants to riding streetcars.[5]". Why is this relevant to the article? If the article was "Anti-Jewish behaviour in Belgrade in WWII" it would fit, but on the facts from the article itself, the Jewish population of the camp was negligible (3%). I suspect you are sourcing figures from Jewish holocaust memorial groups. They inevitably have something of a a slant or agenda. I just don't think it is relevant or notable. Lets not make the story what any Jewish groups want the story to be, lets stick to the facts. If 97% of the inmates were not Jewish, what *were* they, why were they there, why where they being prosecuted, *that* needs to be the focus of the article. The article itself admits "The camp itself was used mostly to intern anti-fascists", but the listing given when listing who was interred is "...torture and execute Jews, anti-fascists and those deemed unworthy of life" and elsewhere "....camp was later used to hold Serbs, Jews, Roma, captured Partisans" etc - note the undue emphasis at the head of each list of "Jews". You do a disservice focusing in a non-neutral way on the Jewish victims. This is probably the fault of your sources rather than you, I appreciate, but the GA review is a FAIL for this alone I'm afraid. |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | Both the main editors "23 Editor" and "No such user" appear to have recent dispute resolution/edit war marks against them (for Ivica Dačić and Novia Sad. I do not see any sign of this in this article in particular, but it is not a good sign. I will mark this as on HOLD and spend more time than usual reviewing the edit history of the article, as well as its neutrality. |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | I am happy that they are both correctly sourced and are both valid for inclusion |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Both images are correctly captioned and are appropriate for the article. I would however like to see them swapped. The image used at the top is quite charged: a distinction is drawn between concentration camps and extermination camps, and this camp seems to be classed as a concentration camp, and actually had relatively low fatalaties as a percentage of its inmaates, looked at objectively: my concern therefore is that the image of the soldier is not the most appropriate, since visually and in its camption it suggests extermination, which was not the norm at the camp, and is a misleading impression to give. I am not saying don't include that image, it is historically valid and should be included in the article. However it does not best sum up and represent the article. I would swap out the secondary image to the top of the page. |
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7. Overall assessment. | This is a FAIL today on grounds of neutrality. The article places far too much emphasis on Jewish victims, and is biased and unencyclopaedic in that respect. We are not a Jewish holocaust remembrance organisation, we present the facts. The main victims were anti-fascists, this needs emphasising, and the Jewish angle de-emphasising. This is simply to bring this article in line with the facts. We must not be emotive in this article, or seek to fit in with a wider narrative, we stick to the facts only. I am happy to re-review this article speedily when some of my concerns above are addressed, to save you waiting several months for another GA review! - PocklingtonDan ( talk) 18:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC) |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 13:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi 23 editor, I'll be glad to take this one, though be warned that it may take me 3-7 days to post a full review. I've read the previous review and will check some of the article's sources to see what emphasis they place on Jewish victims, since that seems to be Dan's main concern. We can check together about Dan's concerns re: unsourced information. The lack of retrieval dates he mentions is not an issue for the GA criteria, though it wouldn't do any harm to fill them in. I also think the selection of images (and their placement) is fine.
More to follow soon! Thanks in advance for your work on this one. As a side note, have you noticed how many concentration or death camps have gone through GA this month? You've got two up, Diannaa and I just did Auschwitz, and another user is doing Treblinka, which I also hope to review if no one beats me to it... -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
On first pass, this article appears to cover main aspects, be neutral and stable, and to be well-sourced; again, I appreciate the work you've put in on this.
The biggest issue I see is that it appears to contain a good deal of close paraphrasing, which creates unintentional copyvio problems. Some sentences are well-summarized with original language, like "On 14 May, Jews were removed from all official posts and a series of anti-Jewish laws were passed which prohibited Jews from performing a variety of tasks that ranged from going to restaurants to riding streetcars." But I'm concerned that in other places the sentences from the sources are reproduced with only superficial changes to a few words. I've listed some examples below--this isn't comprehensive, but just the result of a few spotchecks.
I don't mean to suggest that you've done anything sinister here, as close paraphrasing issues can be a gray area that I myself struggle with. For review purposes, though, these examples are closer than I'm comfortable with for the GA criteria, often adopting both the exact word choice and sentence structure of their sources, and I found them by only checking a few citations. It seems to me that this article is going to need a thorough check and rewrite to put it in more original language, and that this would best happen outside of the review process.
For this reason, I'm not listing the article at this time, though I hope you'll check and rewrite this content and submit again very soon; the article seems good in other respects. WP:PARAPHRASE has good suggestions for how to address this; in some cases, some of the more granular detail (like the types of camp events) may simply need to be cut. I'll also be glad to pitch in myself if there's a way I can help. Most of all, I'm sorry that Dan's irregular review means that you've had to have two fails on this in 48 hours. I hope the third time will be the charm for this important topic. Thanks and all best -- Khazar2 ( talk) 15:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I appreciate your input. I'll go over to the Guild of Copy-Editors and have someone from there give this article a good copy edit. Once that's done, I'll re-nominated it (might take a few months) and see what happens next. Again, thanks for your time. 23 editor ( talk) 01:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand the removal of the reference to Nedic from Singleton. Please explain. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 23:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
These two sentences
Banjica was operational from July 1941 to October 1944. It was jointly run by German occupying forces under the command of Gestapo official Willy Friedrich and the Serbian State Guard. The Serbian administrator of the camp was Svetozar Vujković, a pre-war policeman who enthusiastically collaborated with the Germans.
are false and imprecise. The konzlager was established upon the oberst Ernst von Keisenberg order and started functioning on July 9 1941. The konzlager was under the Sonderkommando beim KCL Banjica rule and the head of guards and administrator of one third of konzlager was Svetozar Vujkovic. The Sonderkommando head was Willy Friedrich most of the time. Other Sonderkommando heads, predating Willy, were oberleutnant Schubert, leutnant Lehr and oberleutnant Winter. Vujkovic was subservient to the Sonderkommando head and effective decision making about the life and death of the knozlager inmates belonged to the Sonderkommando. For details see Sima Begović: Logor Banjica 1941–1944 I and Sima Begović: Logor Banjica 1941–1944 II-- 109.92.171.133 ( talk) 19:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
This man is not a historian, he does not speak neither German nor Serbian. His book is no more than a pamphlet written initially in the Queen's English by some ghost writer. His claim
makes no sense. More elaborated account comes from Sima Begović: Logor Banjica 1941–1944 I, Institut za savremenu istoriju, Beograd 1989 p. 36
Deportations to the Banjica concentration camp by
Deportations to the Banjica concentration camp by | Number of deported |
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SS units and Gestapo | 12 651 |
Regular German army | 1230 |
Feldkomandature | 1 018 |
German UgB police | 4 076 |
Germans overall | 18 975 or 80.3% |
Serbian police | 2 533 |
Serbian State Guard, Ljotic's units and Chetniks | 1 096 |
Criminal police | 774 |
German Serbian collaborators overall | 4 403 or 18.6% |
Unknown | 319 or 1.1% |
Overall | 23,637 100.0% |
-- 109.92.171.133 ( talk) 11:06, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Nemačke vlasti, koje su u svojim rukama držale sve konce vojnih, upravnih i policijskih poslova na teritoriji okupirane Srbije, mada su prividno prepustile izvesnu samostalnost kolaboracionističkoj upravi i policiji, bile su pravi zatočenici i gospodari koncentracionih logora, pa i logora na Banjici. U raznim periodima okupacije rukovodeću ulogu u organizovanju i funkcionisanju logora imale su razne okupacijske službe. Ali samo formalno. U centru zbivanja bila je e uvek, van svake sumnje, Tajna državna policija, svemoćni Gestapo.
there is obviously consensus for the use of Cohen, as both I and 66.213.126.195 have reverted your removal of Cohen. I suggest you self-revert. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 12:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Signature template I was topic banned on 20 July 2014 " in topics involving 'Serbs and Serbia 1900-current' (broadly construed)" because a small group of editors involved in disputes with me reached the consensus to ban me. On 16 August 2016 the ban was lifted ( diff) without any conditions. In the topic area I was banned from, I plan to adhere to the following restrictions until 16 August 2018:
Since this page belongs to the above-mentioned topic area, I want to clarify these restrictions.
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:27, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
...to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. In this case, "irrelevant arguments" include a number of SPA's and allegations of bias against other editors. After weeding out such arguments, I find that there is a rough consensus for considering this book a reliable source as it relates to the article subject. Its reliability on other topics is not at issue and not being judged. ( non-admin closure) Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Is Philip J. Cohen's Serbia's Secret War: Propaganda and the Deceit of History reliable for this subject? A number of academic reviews of the work are summarised in his biographical article. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 23:15, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses- Texas A&M University Press is fine here.
One can confirm that discussion of the source has entered mainstream academic discourse by checking the scholarly citations it has received in citation indexes- Google scholar indicates 83 citations, not a huge amount but still significant. So indeed, it has entered mainstream discussion. That said, the book has been the target of significant criticism in the course of this, in light of that fact, it should not be relied upon heavily and when possible it might be a smart move to have a supporting reference as well. From a previous version I see Cohen accounts for 10 of about 65 citations, this is more than most other sources used in the article but is not excessive in itself. Especially given that Cohen is cited to single sentence statements and not vast paragraphs; e.g. citation 14c to Antic. For reference, the previous version I am using is; [4]. The current version does not use Cohen, but, is significantly relying on Begovic, which has 3 citations on Google Scholar, and Tomasevic which has 282 citations and is published by Stanford University Press. I am keen on favouring Tomasevic over Cohen where possible, but, that's just a recommendation. Mr rnddude ( talk) 23:12, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Peacemaker67 initiated a RfC about whether Cohen's book is "reliable for this subject", but did not ask "reliable for what content", making the RfC mostly meaningless.. Somebody who does not AGF might get impression that lack of the appropriate context in this RfC might indeed be aimed
in hindsight...to enable that book's inclusion as a source for other more controversial content, for the addition of the actual opinions of Cohen.Especially after above attempt ( diff) to proclaim that
there is obviously consensus for the use of Cohenalthough both RSN discussions ended without consensus that this work is reliable.
Cohen's book will be as reliable for data as the sources Cohen derived that data from, but it is not going to be a reliable source that allows the insertion of opinions that are very fringe or indeed held only by Cohen.
Signature template I was topic banned on 20 July 2014 " in topics involving 'Serbs and Serbia 1900-current' (broadly construed)" because a small group of editors involved in disputes with me reached the consensus to ban me. On 16 August 2016 the ban was lifted ( diff) without any conditions. In the topic area I was banned from, I plan to adhere to the following restrictions until 16 August 2018:
Since this page belongs to the above-mentioned topic area, I want to clarify these restrictions.
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How someone who is not a historian, does not speak languages (German, Serbian) could ever write such a book? How come that the first edition of the "book" was written in the Queen's English by someone who is born and lived all his life in the US?( diff), instead to address his concerns, you replied with this comment ( diff)
I have opened a RfC to establish a wider consensus regarding the use of Cohen on the talk page of the Banjica concentration camp article. That is the obivous announcement that this RfC will be used as a proof that
there is wider consensus regarding the use of Cohen. Otherwise, why would anybody initiate RfC just for one single assertion, after two failure to reach consensus for reliability of Cohen's work at RSN for the whole subject of WWII, when there are other sources which are indeed reliable for this single assertion. This is my last comment in this discussion. All the best.
Signature template I was topic banned on 20 July 2014 " in topics involving 'Serbs and Serbia 1900-current' (broadly construed)" because a small group of editors involved in disputes with me reached the consensus to ban me. On 16 August 2016 the ban was lifted ( diff) without any conditions. In the topic area I was banned from, I plan to adhere to the following restrictions until 16 August 2018:
Since this page belongs to the above-mentioned topic area, I want to clarify these restrictions.
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:19, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
As can be seen from Cohen's biographical article, the book has its critics, but it has also been praised by academics who specialise in Balkan history and others more generally, and the more extreme Serb nationalist claims about the book have been debunked by Marko Attila Hoare. It has a foreword by a Emeritus Professor of Social Sciences at Harvard and was published by Texas A&M University Press. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 23:23, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
This section is unnecessary long. It shall be reduced to a few sentences highlighting main reasons for the camp existence. The Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia already covers most of this section and there is no need to repeat the same things here.-- 178.221.137.49 ( talk) 17:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to point at a few bad things inside the article. First, I've fixed the claim that Vujkovic was the camp commandant, replacing "commandant" by the accurate one "administrator". Now I see "administrator" meaninglessly replaced by "chief" as an arbitrary translation of the Serbian word "šef". The sentence translations here must be context dependent, i.e. based on the full knowledge of words meaning inside of the context. Let's see how this Vujkovic's position is translated by other scholars
It's clear from a few excerpts fom the Begovic's book
Nemačke vlasti, koje su u svojim rukama držale sve konce vojnih, upravnih i policijskih poslova na teritoriji okupirane Srbije, mada su prividno prepustile izvesnu samostalnost kolaboracionističkoj upravi i policiji, bile su pravi zatočenici i gospodari koncentracionih logora, pa i logora na Banjici. U raznim periodima okupacije rukovodeću ulogu u orga- nizovanju i funkcionisanju logora imale su razne okupacijske službe. Ali samo formalno. U centru zbivanja bila je uvek, van svake sumnje, Tajna državna policija, svemoćni Gestapo. page 67
U logoru na Banjici postojao je privid dvojne uprave: Gestapoa i Specijalne policije, nemačke komande i srpske uprave. Ali kada se zna kakav je odnos među njima postojao, jasno je da je ta dvojnost postojala samo radi lakšeg obavljanja nadzora nad zatočenicima. Svaki od ova dva partnera vodio je računa o onim krivcima koje je isleđivao i priveo. page 73
Further, there is a claim that "Nearly 9,000 of the inmates were sent to the camp by Serbian collaborators." is taken out of the context and creates a false impression to reader that the collaborators did that bad job instead Germans. We see from Begovic's book that existed third category of inmates which were peasants who did not pay taxes, black marketers, small businessmen violating the pricing policy, criminals, etc. This category of inmates would stay in the camp between a few weeks to two years and were not subject of deportations and executions. They were under sole Vujkovic's responsibility and the collaborationists administration. That means the camp was used as a regular prison too. In addition, Begovic stressed the fact that a number of camp prisoners were brought by Germans and shortly after executed without any bookkeeping of their presence in the camp.-- bez potpisa ( talk) 07:58, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
The article currently states: "Nearly 9,000 of the inmates were sent to the camp by Serbian collaborators". The figure of 9,000 comes from this paragraph on page 36 of Begovic:
Kao što se vidi, preko dve trećine uhapšenika deportovale su nemačke policijske i vojne jedinice. Blizu devet hiljada zatočenika sproveli su u logor kolaboracionistički policijski i vojni organi, uključujući i sreska načelstva.
My translation of this is:
As you can observe, over two-thirds of the prisoners were brought to the camp by German police and military units. Close to 9,000 prisoners were brought to the camp by collaborationist police and military authorities, including district offices.
Serbo-Croatian isn't my first (or even second) language, I spoke it a little when I was in the former Yugoslavia 20 years ago, and I read it a bit. So my question is, how is my translation wrong? Should it just say they were "brought to the camp", or is "sent to the camp" more accurate? @ Srnec, GregorB, Joy, and Thewanderer: (a few native speakers) for third opinions on my translation. The book being quoted from is here if you want to read page 36 in greater context to make sure you understand what is being said. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 00:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Specijalna policija — produžena ruka Gestapoa Pored Gestapoa i esesovskih jedinica prilikom akcija na terenu najviše je hapsila i uhapšenike sprovodila u logor na Banjici beogradska Specijalna policija, koja je od samog početka bila izuzeta iz kompetencija Aćimovićevog komesarijata za unutrašnje poslove i podređena neposredno policijsko-bezbednosnim službama. Za sve vreme trajanja okupacije njen rad je kanalisao i nadzirao Gestapo. page 44-45
Samo III kategorija imala je vremensko ograničenje od tri meseca do dve godine dana konfinacije ... a u III lica koja su posle određenog roka mogla biti puštena ili takođe upućena na prinudni rad u Nemačkoj. page 80 Znatno ređe je učestvovala u hapšenjima i upućivanju u logor feldžandarmerija i to uglavnom za manje prekršaje okupacijskih naređenja nepolitičke prirode. Seljake koji nisu ispunili previsoke kvote za obavezni otkup žitarica hapsila je najčešće feldžandarmerija. pages 34 -35
Drugi, još važniji razlog je što pojedine grupe koje su se vrlo kratko zadržavale u logoru, obično samo jednu noć, da bi već sutradan bile izvedene na streljanje, nisu uopšte upisivane u banjičke knjige. Pouzdano je utvrđeno da grupa, koja je izvedena na stratište u Jajincima 8. oktobra 1942. godine, a sprovedena u Banjički logor iz zgrade Gestapoa u Ratničkom domu, nije upisana page 74
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It's well-known and documented that Cohen's book is a pamphlet written by some Croats. Wikipedia is not a place for spreading political propaganda or advertisements.-- 178.221.173.111 ( talk) 07:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)
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![]() | Banjica concentration camp was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 8, 2013). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
![]() | Banjica concentration camp was nominated as a History good article, but it did not meet the good article criteria at the time (October 10, 2013). There are suggestions on the review page for improving the article. If you can improve it, please do; it may then be renominated. |
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This claim is not supported by any valid reference
Dragi Jovanovic signed the document to this effect and the first prisoners were brought in on May 9. Svetozar Vujkovic was appointed director of the Serbian part of the camp where there were only Serbian police. The smaller German part was directed by members of the Gestapo[dubious — see talk page]. The commander of the camp and along with his assistant were German. The German and Serbian parts of the camps were completely separate.
The camp was established by Germans and run by Germans. The collaborationists had here just a secondary role. See, for example, Encyclopedia of Holocaust, entry Banjica
{{geodata-check}}
The coordinates are supposed to point to Banjica concentration camp, which is near Belgrade, Serbia. Instead, they seem to point to near Pristina, Kosovo... Looks like a politically motivated "joke" ... :(
— 109.245.184.73 ( talk) 08:59, 15 November 2010 (UTC)
I don't have a particular opinion whether the article should have a list of notable inmates. Should you want to add it, here's a reliable source (excerpt from this book [1]), which lists:
Additionally, [2] lists Josip Benković, painter (killed in Banjica), and [3] Vlastimir Pavlović Carevac, musician (Banjica erroneously translated as 'tub'). No such user ( talk) 10:14, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps not a list, but maybe a paragraph titled "Notable inmates" in the "Legacy" section? Also, I'm not really comfortable with all those redlinks and I don't think a GAN reviewer in the future will be, either. Thoughts? 23 editor ( talk) 17:31, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Aleksandar Belić Miloš Đurić Veljko Petrović Jovan Erdeljanović Aleksandar M. Leko Ivan Đaja Tihomir Đorđević
It is fair to belive that those articles will be translated to english Wikipedia, some day. With regards,-- SadarMoritz ( talk) 22:58, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
The article should explain why the Germans called it Dedinje and not Banjica. --
Joy [shallot] (
talk) 13:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC) Done
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Reviewer: PocklingtonDan ( talk · contribs) 16:41, 8 October 2013 (UTC)
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1. Well-written: | ||
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1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct. | I'm having trouble reconcilign some facts in the article: from the lead: "By 1942, most victims were executed at the firing ranges.... 23,697 individuals were detained....At least 3,849 of these perished" 3000 is not "most" of 23000. Can you clarify please? Also, you use the term "firing range" twice, but wikipedia's own article shooting range defines "A shooting range or firing range is a specialized facility designed for firearms practice", which does not seem appropriate. I think you need to reword this. |
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1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation. | I do not see any MoS concerns. The list of notable prisoners seems reasonable. |
2. Verifiable with no original research: | ||
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2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline. | The references are well laid out and in keeping with the MoS. However, not all the websites and eBooks have retrieval dates, which need adding please. All book refs look to have page numbers given, which is good. |
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2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose). | The article is generally very well cited indeed, for which the editor is to be commended. However, all controversial statements or simply those that are shocking or likely to be challenged require refs, some of the statements in this article currently lack them, eg: " inmates would spend several days in the custody of the Gestapo and in Special Police prisons, where they would be tortured and beaten. By the time they were transferred from these detention centers to Banjica, some of the prisoners would already have displayed signs of serious mutilation.", "He collaborated enthusiastically with the Gestapo" are a few that do really need cites |
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2c. it contains no original research. | I spotted no signs of original research |
3. Broad in its coverage: | ||
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3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic. | The coverage of the history of the operation of the concentration camp is very good. The coverage either side of this is very weak. How was the site sourced? What was there before? Who built it? What happened afterwards? Was it torn down? Is any part of it left? |
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3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style). | The article is tightly focused on its topic and does not stray off-topic at all. |
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4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. | I'm not sure that I'm happy with the focus on Jews in the lead. The lead reads "23,697 individuals were detained in Banjica throughout the war, including 455 to 688 Jews". If Jews were only 3% of the inmates by your quoted figures, why are you referencing them? Is it not more notable to address the 97%? We need to be neutral, notable and objective here and focus on the scope of this article. This needs changing please, since it is not appropriate as it stands: this is an article on a concentration camp in a general encyclopaedia, not in some register of Jewish deaths. The focus on Jewish deaths is disturbing. I'm not clear if its pro-Jew, or anti-Jew, but it is not neutral, and not appropriate. I also don't like the following wording in the "background" Section: "Upon capturing Belgrade, the Germans ordered the city's 12,000 Jews to report themselves to the occupational authorities; 9,145 of them did so. On 14 May, Jews were removed from all official posts and a series of anti-Jewish laws were passed which prohibited Jews from performing a variety of tasks that ranged from going to restaurants to riding streetcars.[5]". Why is this relevant to the article? If the article was "Anti-Jewish behaviour in Belgrade in WWII" it would fit, but on the facts from the article itself, the Jewish population of the camp was negligible (3%). I suspect you are sourcing figures from Jewish holocaust memorial groups. They inevitably have something of a a slant or agenda. I just don't think it is relevant or notable. Lets not make the story what any Jewish groups want the story to be, lets stick to the facts. If 97% of the inmates were not Jewish, what *were* they, why were they there, why where they being prosecuted, *that* needs to be the focus of the article. The article itself admits "The camp itself was used mostly to intern anti-fascists", but the listing given when listing who was interred is "...torture and execute Jews, anti-fascists and those deemed unworthy of life" and elsewhere "....camp was later used to hold Serbs, Jews, Roma, captured Partisans" etc - note the undue emphasis at the head of each list of "Jews". You do a disservice focusing in a non-neutral way on the Jewish victims. This is probably the fault of your sources rather than you, I appreciate, but the GA review is a FAIL for this alone I'm afraid. |
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5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute. | Both the main editors "23 Editor" and "No such user" appear to have recent dispute resolution/edit war marks against them (for Ivica Dačić and Novia Sad. I do not see any sign of this in this article in particular, but it is not a good sign. I will mark this as on HOLD and spend more time than usual reviewing the edit history of the article, as well as its neutrality. |
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio: | ||
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6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content. | I am happy that they are both correctly sourced and are both valid for inclusion |
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6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions. | Both images are correctly captioned and are appropriate for the article. I would however like to see them swapped. The image used at the top is quite charged: a distinction is drawn between concentration camps and extermination camps, and this camp seems to be classed as a concentration camp, and actually had relatively low fatalaties as a percentage of its inmaates, looked at objectively: my concern therefore is that the image of the soldier is not the most appropriate, since visually and in its camption it suggests extermination, which was not the norm at the camp, and is a misleading impression to give. I am not saying don't include that image, it is historically valid and should be included in the article. However it does not best sum up and represent the article. I would swap out the secondary image to the top of the page. |
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7. Overall assessment. | This is a FAIL today on grounds of neutrality. The article places far too much emphasis on Jewish victims, and is biased and unencyclopaedic in that respect. We are not a Jewish holocaust remembrance organisation, we present the facts. The main victims were anti-fascists, this needs emphasising, and the Jewish angle de-emphasising. This is simply to bring this article in line with the facts. We must not be emotive in this article, or seek to fit in with a wider narrative, we stick to the facts only. I am happy to re-review this article speedily when some of my concerns above are addressed, to save you waiting several months for another GA review! - PocklingtonDan ( talk) 18:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC) |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: Khazar2 ( talk · contribs) 13:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
Hi 23 editor, I'll be glad to take this one, though be warned that it may take me 3-7 days to post a full review. I've read the previous review and will check some of the article's sources to see what emphasis they place on Jewish victims, since that seems to be Dan's main concern. We can check together about Dan's concerns re: unsourced information. The lack of retrieval dates he mentions is not an issue for the GA criteria, though it wouldn't do any harm to fill them in. I also think the selection of images (and their placement) is fine.
More to follow soon! Thanks in advance for your work on this one. As a side note, have you noticed how many concentration or death camps have gone through GA this month? You've got two up, Diannaa and I just did Auschwitz, and another user is doing Treblinka, which I also hope to review if no one beats me to it... -- Khazar2 ( talk) 13:41, 9 October 2013 (UTC)
On first pass, this article appears to cover main aspects, be neutral and stable, and to be well-sourced; again, I appreciate the work you've put in on this.
The biggest issue I see is that it appears to contain a good deal of close paraphrasing, which creates unintentional copyvio problems. Some sentences are well-summarized with original language, like "On 14 May, Jews were removed from all official posts and a series of anti-Jewish laws were passed which prohibited Jews from performing a variety of tasks that ranged from going to restaurants to riding streetcars." But I'm concerned that in other places the sentences from the sources are reproduced with only superficial changes to a few words. I've listed some examples below--this isn't comprehensive, but just the result of a few spotchecks.
I don't mean to suggest that you've done anything sinister here, as close paraphrasing issues can be a gray area that I myself struggle with. For review purposes, though, these examples are closer than I'm comfortable with for the GA criteria, often adopting both the exact word choice and sentence structure of their sources, and I found them by only checking a few citations. It seems to me that this article is going to need a thorough check and rewrite to put it in more original language, and that this would best happen outside of the review process.
For this reason, I'm not listing the article at this time, though I hope you'll check and rewrite this content and submit again very soon; the article seems good in other respects. WP:PARAPHRASE has good suggestions for how to address this; in some cases, some of the more granular detail (like the types of camp events) may simply need to be cut. I'll also be glad to pitch in myself if there's a way I can help. Most of all, I'm sorry that Dan's irregular review means that you've had to have two fails on this in 48 hours. I hope the third time will be the charm for this important topic. Thanks and all best -- Khazar2 ( talk) 15:47, 10 October 2013 (UTC)
Alright, I appreciate your input. I'll go over to the Guild of Copy-Editors and have someone from there give this article a good copy edit. Once that's done, I'll re-nominated it (might take a few months) and see what happens next. Again, thanks for your time. 23 editor ( talk) 01:45, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
I don't understand the removal of the reference to Nedic from Singleton. Please explain. Thanks, Peacemaker67 ( crack... thump) 23:39, 21 November 2015 (UTC)
These two sentences
Banjica was operational from July 1941 to October 1944. It was jointly run by German occupying forces under the command of Gestapo official Willy Friedrich and the Serbian State Guard. The Serbian administrator of the camp was Svetozar Vujković, a pre-war policeman who enthusiastically collaborated with the Germans.
are false and imprecise. The konzlager was established upon the oberst Ernst von Keisenberg order and started functioning on July 9 1941. The konzlager was under the Sonderkommando beim KCL Banjica rule and the head of guards and administrator of one third of konzlager was Svetozar Vujkovic. The Sonderkommando head was Willy Friedrich most of the time. Other Sonderkommando heads, predating Willy, were oberleutnant Schubert, leutnant Lehr and oberleutnant Winter. Vujkovic was subservient to the Sonderkommando head and effective decision making about the life and death of the knozlager inmates belonged to the Sonderkommando. For details see Sima Begović: Logor Banjica 1941–1944 I and Sima Begović: Logor Banjica 1941–1944 II-- 109.92.171.133 ( talk) 19:58, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
This man is not a historian, he does not speak neither German nor Serbian. His book is no more than a pamphlet written initially in the Queen's English by some ghost writer. His claim
makes no sense. More elaborated account comes from Sima Begović: Logor Banjica 1941–1944 I, Institut za savremenu istoriju, Beograd 1989 p. 36
Deportations to the Banjica concentration camp by
Deportations to the Banjica concentration camp by | Number of deported |
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SS units and Gestapo | 12 651 |
Regular German army | 1230 |
Feldkomandature | 1 018 |
German UgB police | 4 076 |
Germans overall | 18 975 or 80.3% |
Serbian police | 2 533 |
Serbian State Guard, Ljotic's units and Chetniks | 1 096 |
Criminal police | 774 |
German Serbian collaborators overall | 4 403 or 18.6% |
Unknown | 319 or 1.1% |
Overall | 23,637 100.0% |
-- 109.92.171.133 ( talk) 11:06, 5 January 2017 (UTC)
Nemačke vlasti, koje su u svojim rukama držale sve konce vojnih, upravnih i policijskih poslova na teritoriji okupirane Srbije, mada su prividno prepustile izvesnu samostalnost kolaboracionističkoj upravi i policiji, bile su pravi zatočenici i gospodari koncentracionih logora, pa i logora na Banjici. U raznim periodima okupacije rukovodeću ulogu u organizovanju i funkcionisanju logora imale su razne okupacijske službe. Ali samo formalno. U centru zbivanja bila je e uvek, van svake sumnje, Tajna državna policija, svemoćni Gestapo.
there is obviously consensus for the use of Cohen, as both I and 66.213.126.195 have reverted your removal of Cohen. I suggest you self-revert. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 12:04, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Signature template I was topic banned on 20 July 2014 " in topics involving 'Serbs and Serbia 1900-current' (broadly construed)" because a small group of editors involved in disputes with me reached the consensus to ban me. On 16 August 2016 the ban was lifted ( diff) without any conditions. In the topic area I was banned from, I plan to adhere to the following restrictions until 16 August 2018:
Since this page belongs to the above-mentioned topic area, I want to clarify these restrictions.
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 21:27, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
...to judge the consensus of the community, after discarding irrelevant arguments: those that flatly contradict established policy, those based on personal opinion only, those that are logically fallacious, and those that show no understanding of the matter of issue. In this case, "irrelevant arguments" include a number of SPA's and allegations of bias against other editors. After weeding out such arguments, I find that there is a rough consensus for considering this book a reliable source as it relates to the article subject. Its reliability on other topics is not at issue and not being judged. ( non-admin closure) Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 21:23, 28 February 2017 (UTC)
Is Philip J. Cohen's Serbia's Secret War: Propaganda and the Deceit of History reliable for this subject? A number of academic reviews of the work are summarised in his biographical article. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 23:15, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
Material such as an article, book, monograph, or research paper that has been vetted by the scholarly community is regarded as reliable, where the material has been published in reputable peer-reviewed sources or by well-regarded academic presses- Texas A&M University Press is fine here.
One can confirm that discussion of the source has entered mainstream academic discourse by checking the scholarly citations it has received in citation indexes- Google scholar indicates 83 citations, not a huge amount but still significant. So indeed, it has entered mainstream discussion. That said, the book has been the target of significant criticism in the course of this, in light of that fact, it should not be relied upon heavily and when possible it might be a smart move to have a supporting reference as well. From a previous version I see Cohen accounts for 10 of about 65 citations, this is more than most other sources used in the article but is not excessive in itself. Especially given that Cohen is cited to single sentence statements and not vast paragraphs; e.g. citation 14c to Antic. For reference, the previous version I am using is; [4]. The current version does not use Cohen, but, is significantly relying on Begovic, which has 3 citations on Google Scholar, and Tomasevic which has 282 citations and is published by Stanford University Press. I am keen on favouring Tomasevic over Cohen where possible, but, that's just a recommendation. Mr rnddude ( talk) 23:12, 26 January 2017 (UTC)
Peacemaker67 initiated a RfC about whether Cohen's book is "reliable for this subject", but did not ask "reliable for what content", making the RfC mostly meaningless.. Somebody who does not AGF might get impression that lack of the appropriate context in this RfC might indeed be aimed
in hindsight...to enable that book's inclusion as a source for other more controversial content, for the addition of the actual opinions of Cohen.Especially after above attempt ( diff) to proclaim that
there is obviously consensus for the use of Cohenalthough both RSN discussions ended without consensus that this work is reliable.
Cohen's book will be as reliable for data as the sources Cohen derived that data from, but it is not going to be a reliable source that allows the insertion of opinions that are very fringe or indeed held only by Cohen.
Signature template I was topic banned on 20 July 2014 " in topics involving 'Serbs and Serbia 1900-current' (broadly construed)" because a small group of editors involved in disputes with me reached the consensus to ban me. On 16 August 2016 the ban was lifted ( diff) without any conditions. In the topic area I was banned from, I plan to adhere to the following restrictions until 16 August 2018:
Since this page belongs to the above-mentioned topic area, I want to clarify these restrictions.
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How someone who is not a historian, does not speak languages (German, Serbian) could ever write such a book? How come that the first edition of the "book" was written in the Queen's English by someone who is born and lived all his life in the US?( diff), instead to address his concerns, you replied with this comment ( diff)
I have opened a RfC to establish a wider consensus regarding the use of Cohen on the talk page of the Banjica concentration camp article. That is the obivous announcement that this RfC will be used as a proof that
there is wider consensus regarding the use of Cohen. Otherwise, why would anybody initiate RfC just for one single assertion, after two failure to reach consensus for reliability of Cohen's work at RSN for the whole subject of WWII, when there are other sources which are indeed reliable for this single assertion. This is my last comment in this discussion. All the best.
Signature template I was topic banned on 20 July 2014 " in topics involving 'Serbs and Serbia 1900-current' (broadly construed)" because a small group of editors involved in disputes with me reached the consensus to ban me. On 16 August 2016 the ban was lifted ( diff) without any conditions. In the topic area I was banned from, I plan to adhere to the following restrictions until 16 August 2018:
Since this page belongs to the above-mentioned topic area, I want to clarify these restrictions.
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-- Antidiskriminator ( talk) 09:19, 29 January 2017 (UTC)
As can be seen from Cohen's biographical article, the book has its critics, but it has also been praised by academics who specialise in Balkan history and others more generally, and the more extreme Serb nationalist claims about the book have been debunked by Marko Attila Hoare. It has a foreword by a Emeritus Professor of Social Sciences at Harvard and was published by Texas A&M University Press. Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 23:23, 7 January 2017 (UTC)
This section is unnecessary long. It shall be reduced to a few sentences highlighting main reasons for the camp existence. The Territory of the Military Commander in Serbia already covers most of this section and there is no need to repeat the same things here.-- 178.221.137.49 ( talk) 17:09, 16 January 2017 (UTC)
I'd like to point at a few bad things inside the article. First, I've fixed the claim that Vujkovic was the camp commandant, replacing "commandant" by the accurate one "administrator". Now I see "administrator" meaninglessly replaced by "chief" as an arbitrary translation of the Serbian word "šef". The sentence translations here must be context dependent, i.e. based on the full knowledge of words meaning inside of the context. Let's see how this Vujkovic's position is translated by other scholars
It's clear from a few excerpts fom the Begovic's book
Nemačke vlasti, koje su u svojim rukama držale sve konce vojnih, upravnih i policijskih poslova na teritoriji okupirane Srbije, mada su prividno prepustile izvesnu samostalnost kolaboracionističkoj upravi i policiji, bile su pravi zatočenici i gospodari koncentracionih logora, pa i logora na Banjici. U raznim periodima okupacije rukovodeću ulogu u orga- nizovanju i funkcionisanju logora imale su razne okupacijske službe. Ali samo formalno. U centru zbivanja bila je uvek, van svake sumnje, Tajna državna policija, svemoćni Gestapo. page 67
U logoru na Banjici postojao je privid dvojne uprave: Gestapoa i Specijalne policije, nemačke komande i srpske uprave. Ali kada se zna kakav je odnos među njima postojao, jasno je da je ta dvojnost postojala samo radi lakšeg obavljanja nadzora nad zatočenicima. Svaki od ova dva partnera vodio je računa o onim krivcima koje je isleđivao i priveo. page 73
Further, there is a claim that "Nearly 9,000 of the inmates were sent to the camp by Serbian collaborators." is taken out of the context and creates a false impression to reader that the collaborators did that bad job instead Germans. We see from Begovic's book that existed third category of inmates which were peasants who did not pay taxes, black marketers, small businessmen violating the pricing policy, criminals, etc. This category of inmates would stay in the camp between a few weeks to two years and were not subject of deportations and executions. They were under sole Vujkovic's responsibility and the collaborationists administration. That means the camp was used as a regular prison too. In addition, Begovic stressed the fact that a number of camp prisoners were brought by Germans and shortly after executed without any bookkeeping of their presence in the camp.-- bez potpisa ( talk) 07:58, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
The article currently states: "Nearly 9,000 of the inmates were sent to the camp by Serbian collaborators". The figure of 9,000 comes from this paragraph on page 36 of Begovic:
Kao što se vidi, preko dve trećine uhapšenika deportovale su nemačke policijske i vojne jedinice. Blizu devet hiljada zatočenika sproveli su u logor kolaboracionistički policijski i vojni organi, uključujući i sreska načelstva.
My translation of this is:
As you can observe, over two-thirds of the prisoners were brought to the camp by German police and military units. Close to 9,000 prisoners were brought to the camp by collaborationist police and military authorities, including district offices.
Serbo-Croatian isn't my first (or even second) language, I spoke it a little when I was in the former Yugoslavia 20 years ago, and I read it a bit. So my question is, how is my translation wrong? Should it just say they were "brought to the camp", or is "sent to the camp" more accurate? @ Srnec, GregorB, Joy, and Thewanderer: (a few native speakers) for third opinions on my translation. The book being quoted from is here if you want to read page 36 in greater context to make sure you understand what is being said. Cheers, Peacemaker67 ( click to talk to me) 00:06, 22 January 2017 (UTC)
Specijalna policija — produžena ruka Gestapoa Pored Gestapoa i esesovskih jedinica prilikom akcija na terenu najviše je hapsila i uhapšenike sprovodila u logor na Banjici beogradska Specijalna policija, koja je od samog početka bila izuzeta iz kompetencija Aćimovićevog komesarijata za unutrašnje poslove i podređena neposredno policijsko-bezbednosnim službama. Za sve vreme trajanja okupacije njen rad je kanalisao i nadzirao Gestapo. page 44-45
Samo III kategorija imala je vremensko ograničenje od tri meseca do dve godine dana konfinacije ... a u III lica koja su posle određenog roka mogla biti puštena ili takođe upućena na prinudni rad u Nemačkoj. page 80 Znatno ređe je učestvovala u hapšenjima i upućivanju u logor feldžandarmerija i to uglavnom za manje prekršaje okupacijskih naređenja nepolitičke prirode. Seljake koji nisu ispunili previsoke kvote za obavezni otkup žitarica hapsila je najčešće feldžandarmerija. pages 34 -35
Drugi, još važniji razlog je što pojedine grupe koje su se vrlo kratko zadržavale u logoru, obično samo jednu noć, da bi već sutradan bile izvedene na streljanje, nisu uopšte upisivane u banjičke knjige. Pouzdano je utvrđeno da grupa, koja je izvedena na stratište u Jajincima 8. oktobra 1942. godine, a sprovedena u Banjički logor iz zgrade Gestapoa u Ratničkom domu, nije upisana page 74
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It's well-known and documented that Cohen's book is a pamphlet written by some Croats. Wikipedia is not a place for spreading political propaganda or advertisements.-- 178.221.173.111 ( talk) 07:41, 18 July 2018 (UTC)