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On 25 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Australo-papuan. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
@ Joshua Jonathan: & @ Doug Weller: - This User:LenguaMapa on wikicommons (does not seem to have wikipedia account?) has been adding unreliable/unsourced maps like these on several pages. Claiming Oceanians are Africans and not East Eurasians.
He guesstimates "Negrito" (onge) ancestry in South Asians and also associates it with Sub Shaharan African ancestry. Here is link to Negrito map talk page and Sub Sahaharan related map talk page. I have pointed how ( McColl et al. 2018) models East Asians as roughly 75% Onge (Andamanese)-related and 25% Tianyuan-related (fig.3) where Onge is capturing deep proxy ancestry. Similarly, Onge is also capturing deep proxy for hypothesized AASI ancestry which is poor fit for AASI as several studies have pointed out.
I cited various peer-reviewed studies from reich and haravrd groups, pointed out Negrito and Australians descend from East Eurasian clad along with East Asians, however he won't seem to get it.
While he cites Non-peer reviewed Yuan et al. 2019 study, which has not been peer-reviewed for months. Which came out last year claiming Oceanians are mix of European/Indian and African/Archic ancestry, and not Asians. It claims that modern humans originated in hunan province of China, and that they found Chinese ancestry in Africans (recent Shum Lake paper didn't mention this part lol). There was discussion about this on Anthorogenica post 1 explains why & post 2. It is telling why the study was not peer-reviewed.
Reliable peer-reviewed ancient DNA study suggests otherwise, this Figure 4 from ( McColl et al. 2018) based on ancient DNA will help understand East Eurasian clad and it's branching, along with this Lipson et al 2018 study.
Those two maps is pretty misleading, one of them is on several pages. He is guesstimating "negrito" ancestry based on Onge proxy ancestry found in mainland Asians and also associating it with Saharan/African ancestry, when in reality Negritos branched from East Eurasian clad and share deep ancestry with all East Eurasians. Ilber8000 ( talk) 20:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC) I have removed them for now. Ilber8000 ( talk) 23:04, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
See my answer at Talk:Negroid#Map_from_the_Horniman_museum_is_correct Rsk6400 ( talk) 18:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
This page has way too many references to umbrella terms such as those ending in "-oid" and questionable categorization. Insert bad pun here ( talk) 06:46, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear user: Rsk6400 ! Why do you call the map outdated? The Caucasian , Mongoloid, Negroid and Australoid groups of races exist accoriding to the genetic distances of various ethnic groups based on autosomal genetic researches.-- Liltender ( talk) 17:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
A clearly defined "Australo-Melanesian" or "Australoid" race or population doesn't exist in modern science (biology or genetics). So I changed the lede and some parts of the article in order to clarify that we are dealing with a historical race concept. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 06:01, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Morphological characters indicate that this Toalean forager was a 17–18-year-old female with a broadly Australo-Melanesian affinity), I see no indication that it is a "genetic grouping". It may just mean "looks like somebody from Australia or Melanesia". -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 10:13, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Degeneration1: Please don't mark potentially controversial edits as "minor", see WP:ME. You might also want to read WP:BRD. The American Association of Physical Anthropologists is a respected international body of scientists, so their declarations not opinions, but science. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 05:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
No, this not a genetic grouping, but a cover term for the ancestral component of the diverse indigenous populations of SE Asia and Oceania. The genomes of many of these peoples still overwhelmingly comprise this ancestry component, but many also to various degrees display multiple geneflow from later East Asian migrations, so there no support from genetics that there is a clearcut "genetic grouping" of "Australo-Melanesians". What I support is to mention that the term "Australo-Melanesian" is used in genetics for this complex ancestral component, but a detailed discussion belongs in articles that discuss the peopling and genetic history of SE Asia and Oceania. A real secondary source (and not just a pop-sci news report quoting a primary source) for the current use in genetics is e.g. this one [1] by Skoglund & Mathieson (2018). – Austronesier ( talk) 13:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
The terms "Australo-Papuan" and "Australasian" are often used in studies about the history of uniparental genetic markers and the full genome ("Australo-Melanesian" only rarely). The claim is that this research corroborates (or at least partially relates to) obsolete racial classifications as covered in this article. While modern geneticists simply to do not talk about "race" in their output (which actually should already be sufficient to put rac(ial)ist pipe dreams to rest), the claim circles around the notion of "sub-populations" in a taxonomic sense which some people wilfully read into genetic research articles.
So let's have a look what the few relevant secondary review/overview articles have to say about "Australo-Melanesian" etc.:
There are two studies with a global scope:
And one more specifically about Asia and Oceania:
Here are the relevant passages:
1) Skoglund & Mathieson (2018). There is a passing mention of "Australo-Melanesians" on pp. 391–392: However, a genetic affinity between Amazonian and Australo-Melanesian populations suggests
that we still do not have the full picture of the ancestry of the first Americans (102, 129). This suggests that the expansion into the Americas was substructured, with some subpopulations retaining greater affinity to an unknown northeastern Asian population related to present-day Australo-Melanesians
. The authors to not define "Australo-Melanesians" in their article, but from the quote and the context it should be clear that they are not talking about sharply well-delineated taxonomic entities, but rather geographical clusters of various present-day populations which predominantly display a specific ancestry.
2) Liu et al. (2021). No mention of "Australo-Papuan" etc. at all. They open the relevant section "Oceania" with the following sentence: Archeological evidence suggests that human
populations from Southeast Asia have initially settled in Sahul (present-day Australia, Tasmania, and New Guinea) before ~50 ka
. They continue to discuss Aborignal Australians and Papuans individually.
3) Yang (2022). This is a great source since the author defines the term "Australasian": Australasian (AA) lineage—this lineage refers to the ancestral population that primarily contributed to human populations in Australasia, or the region consisting of Australia, New Zealand, and neighboring islands in the South Pacific Ocean. Represented primarily by present-day Australasians, e.g. Papuans and Aboriginal Australians
(p. 8). NB that this an ancestry component that emerges in the modeling in the genetic history of modern-day populations, and is found among them to various degrees. But there is no taxonomic "Australasian" group, sub-population etc. of present-day populations! When applied to modern people, "Australasians" simply refers to the inhabitants of Australasia (the region consisting of Australia, New Zealand, and neighboring South Pacific islands)
(p. 4).
Clearly, there is no link between obsolete classificatory "races" and the modern concept of ancestries. There is some crude overlap since the human genome also determines the phenotypical characteristics that were exploited by earlier racial classification. But to combine these two completely different paradigms is like mixing up the Aether theory with Quantum electrodynamics. We can talk about "Australasian" ancestry in an article about the Peopling of Oceania, but not here.
A final word on Bellwood's book (even if he is an archaeologist and his book mostly a primary source for his model about the demic spread of the Neolithic from East Asia into Southeast Asia and Oceania): Bellwood primarily uses the term "Australo-Papuan" (actually "Australo-Melanesians" during most of his career) for the diverse inhabitants of Southeast Asia and Oceania prior to the expansion of people from East Asia into that area that began ~4kya. He also goes into saying things like The modern Australo‐Papuan populations of Island Southeast Asia still form a coherent biological subdivision in terms of their DNA and phenotypic features.
This is however simply at odds with modern genetic research, and also with a statement by Bellwood himself in the same paragraph: However, many of the peoples of eastern Indonesia, especially in eastern Nusa Tenggara and of course in Papua itself, are today predominately Australo‐Papuan in genetic heritage.
Australasian ancestry forms a cline in Wallacea (=eastern Indonesia), and there is no sensible cut-off point. This is of course true for most regions in the world, and the primary reason why modern geneticists consider the idea of races meritless. –
Austronesier (
talk)
12:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
– Austronesier ( talk) 12:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 03:22, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Australo-Melanesian → Australo-papuan – Recent publications (summarised by Bellwood (2017) [1] use this term in preference over "Australo-Melanesian". Pakbelang ( talk) 22:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
Australo-Melanesians …. is an outdated historical grouping of various people indigenous to Melanesia and Australia.If you change the name you have to change the article. Now I note User:Austronesier’s comments about there being two conflated concepts here, but I do not understand your rationale of how this solution will help with that. Is your intention to then create a new article under this name? How would this article need to be rewritten under the new name? This all seems very nebulous to me, sorry. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:51, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Australo-Melanesian article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1Auto-archiving period: 30 days |
Please stay calm and civil while commenting or presenting evidence, and do not make personal attacks. Be patient when approaching solutions to any issues. If consensus is not reached, other solutions exist to draw attention and ensure that more editors mediate or comment on the dispute. |
This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
On 25 August 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Australo-papuan. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
@ Joshua Jonathan: & @ Doug Weller: - This User:LenguaMapa on wikicommons (does not seem to have wikipedia account?) has been adding unreliable/unsourced maps like these on several pages. Claiming Oceanians are Africans and not East Eurasians.
He guesstimates "Negrito" (onge) ancestry in South Asians and also associates it with Sub Shaharan African ancestry. Here is link to Negrito map talk page and Sub Sahaharan related map talk page. I have pointed how ( McColl et al. 2018) models East Asians as roughly 75% Onge (Andamanese)-related and 25% Tianyuan-related (fig.3) where Onge is capturing deep proxy ancestry. Similarly, Onge is also capturing deep proxy for hypothesized AASI ancestry which is poor fit for AASI as several studies have pointed out.
I cited various peer-reviewed studies from reich and haravrd groups, pointed out Negrito and Australians descend from East Eurasian clad along with East Asians, however he won't seem to get it.
While he cites Non-peer reviewed Yuan et al. 2019 study, which has not been peer-reviewed for months. Which came out last year claiming Oceanians are mix of European/Indian and African/Archic ancestry, and not Asians. It claims that modern humans originated in hunan province of China, and that they found Chinese ancestry in Africans (recent Shum Lake paper didn't mention this part lol). There was discussion about this on Anthorogenica post 1 explains why & post 2. It is telling why the study was not peer-reviewed.
Reliable peer-reviewed ancient DNA study suggests otherwise, this Figure 4 from ( McColl et al. 2018) based on ancient DNA will help understand East Eurasian clad and it's branching, along with this Lipson et al 2018 study.
Those two maps is pretty misleading, one of them is on several pages. He is guesstimating "negrito" ancestry based on Onge proxy ancestry found in mainland Asians and also associating it with Saharan/African ancestry, when in reality Negritos branched from East Eurasian clad and share deep ancestry with all East Eurasians. Ilber8000 ( talk) 20:33, 13 March 2020 (UTC) I have removed them for now. Ilber8000 ( talk) 23:04, 13 March 2020 (UTC)
See my answer at Talk:Negroid#Map_from_the_Horniman_museum_is_correct Rsk6400 ( talk) 18:41, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
This page has way too many references to umbrella terms such as those ending in "-oid" and questionable categorization. Insert bad pun here ( talk) 06:46, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear user: Rsk6400 ! Why do you call the map outdated? The Caucasian , Mongoloid, Negroid and Australoid groups of races exist accoriding to the genetic distances of various ethnic groups based on autosomal genetic researches.-- Liltender ( talk) 17:28, 9 May 2020 (UTC)
A clearly defined "Australo-Melanesian" or "Australoid" race or population doesn't exist in modern science (biology or genetics). So I changed the lede and some parts of the article in order to clarify that we are dealing with a historical race concept. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 06:01, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
Morphological characters indicate that this Toalean forager was a 17–18-year-old female with a broadly Australo-Melanesian affinity), I see no indication that it is a "genetic grouping". It may just mean "looks like somebody from Australia or Melanesia". -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 10:13, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
@ Degeneration1: Please don't mark potentially controversial edits as "minor", see WP:ME. You might also want to read WP:BRD. The American Association of Physical Anthropologists is a respected international body of scientists, so their declarations not opinions, but science. -- Rsk6400 ( talk) 05:28, 8 August 2021 (UTC)
No, this not a genetic grouping, but a cover term for the ancestral component of the diverse indigenous populations of SE Asia and Oceania. The genomes of many of these peoples still overwhelmingly comprise this ancestry component, but many also to various degrees display multiple geneflow from later East Asian migrations, so there no support from genetics that there is a clearcut "genetic grouping" of "Australo-Melanesians". What I support is to mention that the term "Australo-Melanesian" is used in genetics for this complex ancestral component, but a detailed discussion belongs in articles that discuss the peopling and genetic history of SE Asia and Oceania. A real secondary source (and not just a pop-sci news report quoting a primary source) for the current use in genetics is e.g. this one [1] by Skoglund & Mathieson (2018). – Austronesier ( talk) 13:32, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
The terms "Australo-Papuan" and "Australasian" are often used in studies about the history of uniparental genetic markers and the full genome ("Australo-Melanesian" only rarely). The claim is that this research corroborates (or at least partially relates to) obsolete racial classifications as covered in this article. While modern geneticists simply to do not talk about "race" in their output (which actually should already be sufficient to put rac(ial)ist pipe dreams to rest), the claim circles around the notion of "sub-populations" in a taxonomic sense which some people wilfully read into genetic research articles.
So let's have a look what the few relevant secondary review/overview articles have to say about "Australo-Melanesian" etc.:
There are two studies with a global scope:
And one more specifically about Asia and Oceania:
Here are the relevant passages:
1) Skoglund & Mathieson (2018). There is a passing mention of "Australo-Melanesians" on pp. 391–392: However, a genetic affinity between Amazonian and Australo-Melanesian populations suggests
that we still do not have the full picture of the ancestry of the first Americans (102, 129). This suggests that the expansion into the Americas was substructured, with some subpopulations retaining greater affinity to an unknown northeastern Asian population related to present-day Australo-Melanesians
. The authors to not define "Australo-Melanesians" in their article, but from the quote and the context it should be clear that they are not talking about sharply well-delineated taxonomic entities, but rather geographical clusters of various present-day populations which predominantly display a specific ancestry.
2) Liu et al. (2021). No mention of "Australo-Papuan" etc. at all. They open the relevant section "Oceania" with the following sentence: Archeological evidence suggests that human
populations from Southeast Asia have initially settled in Sahul (present-day Australia, Tasmania, and New Guinea) before ~50 ka
. They continue to discuss Aborignal Australians and Papuans individually.
3) Yang (2022). This is a great source since the author defines the term "Australasian": Australasian (AA) lineage—this lineage refers to the ancestral population that primarily contributed to human populations in Australasia, or the region consisting of Australia, New Zealand, and neighboring islands in the South Pacific Ocean. Represented primarily by present-day Australasians, e.g. Papuans and Aboriginal Australians
(p. 8). NB that this an ancestry component that emerges in the modeling in the genetic history of modern-day populations, and is found among them to various degrees. But there is no taxonomic "Australasian" group, sub-population etc. of present-day populations! When applied to modern people, "Australasians" simply refers to the inhabitants of Australasia (the region consisting of Australia, New Zealand, and neighboring South Pacific islands)
(p. 4).
Clearly, there is no link between obsolete classificatory "races" and the modern concept of ancestries. There is some crude overlap since the human genome also determines the phenotypical characteristics that were exploited by earlier racial classification. But to combine these two completely different paradigms is like mixing up the Aether theory with Quantum electrodynamics. We can talk about "Australasian" ancestry in an article about the Peopling of Oceania, but not here.
A final word on Bellwood's book (even if he is an archaeologist and his book mostly a primary source for his model about the demic spread of the Neolithic from East Asia into Southeast Asia and Oceania): Bellwood primarily uses the term "Australo-Papuan" (actually "Australo-Melanesians" during most of his career) for the diverse inhabitants of Southeast Asia and Oceania prior to the expansion of people from East Asia into that area that began ~4kya. He also goes into saying things like The modern Australo‐Papuan populations of Island Southeast Asia still form a coherent biological subdivision in terms of their DNA and phenotypic features.
This is however simply at odds with modern genetic research, and also with a statement by Bellwood himself in the same paragraph: However, many of the peoples of eastern Indonesia, especially in eastern Nusa Tenggara and of course in Papua itself, are today predominately Australo‐Papuan in genetic heritage.
Australasian ancestry forms a cline in Wallacea (=eastern Indonesia), and there is no sensible cut-off point. This is of course true for most regions in the world, and the primary reason why modern geneticists consider the idea of races meritless. –
Austronesier (
talk)
12:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
– Austronesier ( talk) 12:50, 26 August 2022 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: not moved. ( closed by non-admin page mover) – robertsky ( talk) 03:22, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Australo-Melanesian → Australo-papuan – Recent publications (summarised by Bellwood (2017) [1] use this term in preference over "Australo-Melanesian". Pakbelang ( talk) 22:09, 25 August 2022 (UTC)
Australo-Melanesians …. is an outdated historical grouping of various people indigenous to Melanesia and Australia.If you change the name you have to change the article. Now I note User:Austronesier’s comments about there being two conflated concepts here, but I do not understand your rationale of how this solution will help with that. Is your intention to then create a new article under this name? How would this article need to be rewritten under the new name? This all seems very nebulous to me, sorry. Sirfurboy🏄 ( talk) 08:51, 26 August 2022 (UTC)