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I've just found this article, and wouldn't you know that I find many of the most frequent anti-homeopathy editors here. Hello everyone! This article is another piece of evidence that many of the anti-homeopathy editors assert that there is "no scientific research" on this or that subject within homeopathy, and yet, either these editors are purposefully ignoring the body of basic science evidence and clinical research or they are choosing to not look and simply asserting that there is no research (when you don't look for something, it is indeed hard to find it). What is also so interesting is the degree of self-justification that goes on in the homeopathy-bashing and the unapologetic tendencies for either ignoring or attacking homeopathic research. "How convenient" is all I have to say about the lack of references to the scientific literature at this article, especially when there is a reasonable body of basic science work (testing homeopathic doses of this medicine) and clinical trials too. This article deserves better than where it is now...let's try to maintain the good wiki-spirit in this process. My apology if I'm sounding a bit arrogant or paternalistic, but coming to this article fresh, I can't help but feel that the editors here are asleep at the wheel (and seem to be proud to be asleep). Eeeeks. Dana Ullman Talk 06:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is a helpful addition to the understanding of homeopathy, especially since "placebo effect" cannot be attributed to the mice. I've corrected the reference formatting by adding {{reflist}}. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 13:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
If a patient is suffering from arsenic poisoning, because they are being exposed, via the water you drink, to arsenic, in the amount of X per day, how is giving dx, where dx is an additional but infinitesimal amount of arsenic, for a total of X+dx, going to "remedy" the arsenic poisoning? It doesn't. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WnEo46h4A, which discuss homeopathic dillution. I will be adding this to the article. TableManners C· U· T 07:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
[3] is by homeopathic manufacturer Boiron, published in a minor journal, and which says in the abstract that it's a pilot study ("This pilot study was conducted on 20 males and 19 females of village Dasdiya") where over a third its subjects dropped out. As such, it does not pass WP:RS.
The second article's site is not working at present. However, The New Scientist article and related piece have some oddities, but the one unrelated scientist interviewed says that he is "extremely skeptical". I'm sure w ecould track down response letters.
The third one is claimed to be in a "major journal" (J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987.)
Unfortunately, the journal "Human Toxicology" does not seem to actually exist, and an online search for the title ( [4]) comes up with no reliable source. Vanished User talk 02:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Vanished User talk 01:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been 5 years since the New Scientist article. What has happened since? Any follow up? -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 03:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The section about "Claims of efficacy" now has provided undue weight to the fringe-minority belief that this substance does something. PouponOnToast ( talk) 14:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Deleting properly sourced scientific data, without reaching a consensus with your fellow editors, is not the best way to edit Wikipedia (or any other encyclopedia). Using "fringe-minority belief" as justification is simply not acceptable. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 14:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
"The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis [7]. Since we completed our literature search in 1995, a considerable number of new homeopathy trials have been published. The fact that a number of the new high-quality trials (e.g. [14,15]) have negative results, and a recent update of our review for the most “original” subtype of homeopathy (classical or individualized homeopathy [16]), seem to confirm the finding that more rigorous trials have less-promising results. It seems, therefore, likely that our meta-analysis [7] at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments."
Linde et al, Impact of Study Quality on Outcome in Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy, J Clin Epidemiol Vol. 52, No. 7, pp. 631–636, 1999, doi: 10.1016/S0895-4356(99)00048-7
Since Linde et al. have rejected the findings of their metaanalysis after further study, I believe the results from it should be considered superseded. Vanished User talk 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
That's true, Dana, but the 1994 (not 1995) study is being misused here all the same. Here's a quote from that article:
You've ignored the findings of Linde et al, and instead reported the bits of data that suit your point of view. Hesperian 04:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
If we're going to cite Linde et al., is it perhaps worth mentioning that Linde and Jonas don't seem to think that their work has proven homoeopathy effective? In a letter published in The Lancet in 2005 they wrote "Our 1997 meta-analysis has unfortunately been misused by homoeopaths as evidence that their therapy is proven"; presumably they wouldn't have felt the need to express this regret if their earlier work had established the effectiveness of homoeopathy. Brunton ( talk) 12:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Friends, the statement "rare reports of arsenic poisoning from poorly-prepared homeopathic treatments have been reported" needs to be striked. First, it is a report from India with such a low dose of arsenic that it would be illegal to have in the U.S. or any European country. Dana Ullman Talk 06:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The below statement was deleted without comment. This is a RS (the journal is now called "Human Toxicology" and is highly respected in the field): Another animal study testing various homeopathic doses of arsenic on mice was published in a leading toxicology journal and showed statistically significant effects. [1]
Based on the paragraph above that describes one more study, it seems a little funny (and inaccurate) to refer to all three studies as "preliminary." As for the mechanism of action, it wasn't until somewhat recently that we began to understand how aspirin works...and this didn't influence its acceptability. The reference to the "mechanism of action" has no place here. This article should emphasize what is known, not necessarily what is unknown (if we were to say what we don't know about something, then most of each article would discuss the various things we don't know. Further, this is an article about Arsenicum album, not the entire field of homeopathy. The reference #3, #6, and #7 and the partial sentence connected to it have no place here.
Here's what is presently written with my recommended changes (I suggest that we add the above study after reference #5): Some small, preliminary studies claim an effect for arsenicum album;[4][5] however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community, as there is no known mechanism by which such highly-diluted substances could work, and large scale scientific studies say that any perceived medicinal effects of homeopathy are almost certainly due to the placebo effect.[3][6][7] —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Danaullman (
talk •
contribs)
07:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The reasons that the Cazin (1987) study is notable is that it was published in one of the leading journals in toxicology. It was conducted at a major French university and department of pharmacology. It showed a statistically significant result. It was referenced by a major meta-analysis (Linde, et al 1994) and described as a "high quality trial." It has had several replications that have confirms its results. It has V, RS, and 3rd party confirmation...it has them all. At this point, it is your responsibility to assert why it should not be in there. Dana Ullman Talk 02:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
--BELON P., BISWAS S.J., KARMAKAR S.R., BANERJEE P., BANERJEE A., DAS J.K., PATHAK S., CHOUDHURY C., BHATTACHARJEE N., GUHA B. Is an elevated anticuclear antibody titer in subjects living in two groundwater Arsenic contaminated villages indicative of a time-dependent effect of Arsenic exposure? Environmental Science (2007) , vol 2 (1), 10-16 --BANERJEE P., BHATTACHARYYA S.S., PATHAK S., BOUJEDAINI N., BELON P., KHUDA6BUKHSH A.R. Comparative efficacy of two microdoses of a potentized homeopathic drug, Arsenicum album, to ameliorate toxicity induced by repeated sublethal injections of Arsenic trioxide in mice. Pathobiology 2008 in press Dana Ullman Talk 18:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The abstract of "Is an elevated antinuclear etc", available here, appears to have nothing whatsoever to say about homeopathy. What makes you think it is a replication of Linde et al? Perhaps, Dana, you could lay out for me all the relevant published studies into this preparation, indicating the significance of each? Hesperian 04:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't expressed an opinion on whether the Cazin study should or shouldn't be included, as yet. I'm trying to form an opinion, but I am confused. I imagine it is at least possible that my confusion will not be resolved by "slowing down a tad and reading your posts properly." Considering you gave a wrong year above, a wrong journal title above, a wrong journal title in the article citation under dispute, and put forward a reference that turns out to be unsuitable for this article, I think you may bear at least a small portion of responsibility for my confusion.
I really think we could all benefit from you doing as I requested a post ago, and laying out all the relevent published studies into this preparation, indicating the significance of each. If I only had a clear idea of what had been published, what was a replication study of what, and the quality of each journal, then we might be able to get to the bottom of all this.
Hesperian 00:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
First of all, the Lancet (2005) article was not a "meta-analysis." It was a comparison of studies (conventional vs. homeopathic). Although many physicians and scientists have reported sharp critique of this study that has no external validity, this article ignores one of its important conclusions. The researchers found that 21 of the homeopathic clinical trials were "high quality," while only 9 of the conventional medical studies were of a similar "high quality." Because people in this article on Arsenicum album include a statement about the quality of homeopathic research, we need to have a statement that a more recent analysis and comparison of homeopathic and conventional studies found that "more than twice as many of the homeopathic studies were of high quality as compared to those testing conventional medicines." Although I suggest that the reference to Lancet and Int'l Journal of Epidemiology articles should be deleted, we should include this observation from the Lancet article if we are going to include them. Dana Ullman Talk 02:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, the Shang analysis found several medical trials to be inadequate for one reason or another as it did with the homeopathy trials. That is not surprising or important. The important conclusion is that as the quality of trial increased, the medical trials showed significant effects against the placebo while the homeopathic preparations showed little difference from the placebo. Acleron ( talk) 10:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand and don't need your help here in seeing the lack of external validity that the Shang paper had. Shang never responded to that critique, nor did he (or you) give us an analysis of the high quality trials. Do you or do you not have this analysis? Please give us this information or acknowledge that Shang purposefully left it out because it would give credence to homeopathy...or are you now saying that high quality randomized double-blind placebo controlled trials are "unscientific"? As for critique of the Shang paper, there are so many good critiques that there are even editorials about the junk science that it was: [10] Are you now choosing to ignore editorials too? Dana Ullman Talk 15:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Shang took the best homeopathic trials they could find. Why do you find this remarkable? The main point is that when the the best trials where examined they showed the inadequacy of homeoptathy. Acleron ( talk) 02:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There seemed to be consensus at the AfD that this should be moved somewhere. Shall we try to establish a consensus where? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Dana: what part of "The result was keep in the sense of "not delete". There is no immediately apparent consensus as to whether or not the article should be merged to one of a number of proposed other articles, but that is a matter for editors to work out." did you fail to understand? Hrafn Talk Stalk 16:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Assuming that merging it to arsenic trioxide or water (or more accurately lactose) would be violently opposed by pro-homeopathy editors, and given that homeopathy is already quite large, would it be appropriate to suggest List of homeopathic preparations as the first candidate for an up/down vote on merger? Hrafn Talk Stalk 16:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a horse in this race, but, FYI, the person that nominated this article for deletion has been identified as a sockpuppet and has been blocked indefinately. See [11].-- Hjal ( talk) 07:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I've been asked to provide my uninvolved opinion on whether or not a merge is appropriate, so here I am. Looking at the AFD, which was quite recent, it seems that the majority of editors wanted to keep the article. In my opinion, as there are so many potential merge targets, a merge would be quite lengthy and difficult to perform, and some of the content would likely be lost in the merge process. There is also the possibility of upsetting the currently shaky balance on other Homeopathy articles, causing more drama. Arsenicum album seems to have enough references to establish notability and verifiability, yet another reason to not merge. To boil this down: I do not think a merge would be appropriate at all. Keilana| Parlez ici 02:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Friends, it was discovered yesterday that these two editors were sock puppets of User:Unprovoked. I think that any and all of the comments that they have made above can now be ignored, and any and all edits and deletions that they did can now be undone. Is that right? It is more than a tad ironic that people who assert themselves as being definers of science, as arbitrators of what is a "reliable source," and as defenders of mainstream medicine are themselves not very reliable. Dana Ullman Talk 01:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanx Baegis. It was not my intention to "attack" them anymore. I have only been actively editing on wiki since late November and am unclear on certain policies. I also felt that it was important to let other editors know about these socks because they were very active here and seemed to create the illusion of much greater support than really existed. Further, I am still concerned that some good references that I have given have still been deleted from the article (such as the study by Cazin). Other problems with this article:
-- The second half of the following sentence from the article is without substantiation. There is no specific reference to the research on Arsenicum album in any of the cited references. This half of the sentence needs to be deleted: "Some small, preliminary studies claim an effect for arsenicum album;[4][5] however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community, as there is no known mechanism by which such highly-diluted substances could work, and large scale scientific studies say that any perceived medicinal effects of homeopathy are almost certainly due to the placebo effect.[3][6][7]"
-- I am not clear why this sentence is in this article because there are numerous studies using this medicine in animal trials. This sentence should be deleted: "It is generally accepted in medicine that conclusions as to the efficacy of any preparation cannot be made from a single study."
-- I have previously placed information in this article that was deleted without discussion. It should be re-inserted: Besides the above arsenic trials, there is a body of animal research using homeopathic doses of various toxic substances to reduce the effects of crude, toxic doses of that specific substance. A meta-analysis of 105 trials was published in Human and Experimental Toxicology.[Linde, K., Jonas, W.B., Melchart, D., et al. (1994) "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 13:481-92.] Although most of these studies were not high quality research, the studies that tended to show the most significant effects from homeopathic doses were the high quality studies. The researchers found that there were 40 high quality studies, of which 27 showed positive results from homeopathic doses (there were 50% more positive results than negative results). Of special interest were nine studies on mice which tested homeopathic doses beyond 15C that demonstrated a 40% decrease in mortality compared to mice in the control group.
Many people here may be familiar with the high standards of research for which Linde and Jonas are known. Their metaanalysis is WP:RS and WP:Notable. 24.5.193.22 ( talk) 16:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Dana Ullman Talk 16:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind the link to "Evidence based medicine" but find the link to the homeopathy article doesn't provide adequate NPOV. I also find it curious that this section quotes from the New Scientist article and uses only a skeptic's viewpoint, not the primary researcher's point of view, for which the article primarily focuses. I hope to find an appropriate quote and place it here. Any objections? Dana Ullman Talk 06:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Did we reach a consensus that this edit was acceptable and I missed it? PouponOnToast ( talk) 08:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
and this? PouponOnToast ( talk) 08:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that it was appropriate to remove that irrelevant material. The problem is that material had been added with the intent of "debunking" and discrediting homeopathy in general, and has no place in an article on arsenicum album. We should never underestimate the intelligence of Wikipedia's readers. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that Dana's probation apparently allows for edits that are good but not discussed, I should be clear - I do not believe the entire section on effectiveness adds any value, but if we have to include the fringe studies by true believers, we also need to include the meta analysis that debunks them and the standard view that it's placebo. I consider Dana's edits to provide undue weight to a fringe view that this substance does something by removing any and all mention of the cited view that some people believe the substance does nothing. PouponOnToast ( talk) 18:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:BRD I have removed the difficult section on "Claims of efficacy" as it doesn't add much to the article generally and is the locus of dispute. I will not take reversion of this edit as edit warring whatsoever. PouponOnToast ( talk) 17:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree that general studies on homeopathic research should not be in this article, especially a meta-analysis which did not evaluate or include studies mentioned here on arsenicum album. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Arthur Rubin deleted this meta-analysis that includes information about the arsenic studies and confirms the [notability] of this high quality research. The meta-analysis provides a good review of animal research on environmental toxicology and has direct meaning/value to this article (please note that I am NOT referring to the Linde meta-analysis in 1997 on clinical trials...that is a different article). I recommend that we re-insert Linde meta-analysis on enviromental toxicology. The difference between THIS meta-analysis and the Shang (2005) comparison of studies is that the Shang meta-analysis does not include any of the research on Arsenicum (the subject of THIS article) nor on environmental toxicology. I recommend removing of those references unless someone can specifically cite that these articles reviewed and condemned this research as invalid or not notable. Dana Ullman Talk 19:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Dana Ullman Talk 19:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanx for AGF. Back at ya. The Linde/Jonas metaanalysis (1994) was published in a WP:RS. Because I sometimes write from home (where I do not have copies of the specific papers in front of me), I sometimes write from memory. I mis-remembered the changed name of the journal in which this article was published (no big deal). The high calibre work of both Linde and Jonas is highly recognized. Reference to this meta-analysis is important in THIS article because it verifies that the animal trials with Arsenicum album mentioned here are recognized as "high quality" trials. Because some editors here insist upon evidence in reliable sources and notability, reference to the Arsenicum trials AND the meta-analysis are important. I'm not clear with any logic to delete either. Dana Ullman Talk 15:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
In reference to the Frass study on COPD, here are its results: The amount of tracheal secretions was reduced significantly in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Extubation (the removal of obstructive mucus from the lung with a tube) could be performed significantly earlier in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Similarly, length of stay was significantly shorter in group 1 (4.20 +/- 1.61 days vs 7.68 +/- 3.60 days, p < 0.0001 [mean +/- SD]). Correct me if I'm wrong: when p < 0.05, this suggests statistical significance, but when p < 0.001, it is substantially significant. These results were beyond this result. These results were impressive. As for the Linde comment, I will get the specific quote from the Linde/Jonas (1994) meta-analysis about the arsenic studies shortly. DanaUllman Talk 03:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The Frass et al study was severely criticised because of the clinical difference between the placebo and treated groups before treatment [15]. These problems do not make this study notable or its results remarkable Acleron ( talk) 10:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Brunton...Actually, it is YOUR responsibility to make the case that the critique given at that blog is notable and is a reliable source. If not, move on to a critique that has that.
Arthur...my point in referencing the Linde meta-analysis is that they recognize the Cazin study as a "high quality" and the fact that they (and others) make reference to the Cazin study verify its notability. The fact that several other studies have verified the efficacy of homeopathic Arsenicum album in helping to excrete crude doses of arsenic showed that this research has been repeated by independent parties. At this point, it would seem that resistance for inclusion is stonewalling. A strong case has been made. DanaUllman Talk 03:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
[To Dana] It is not proposed that the critique from the blog be used as an authority in an article: it is being put forward here to question whether the Frass study is as notable as you seem to think it is. The notability or reliability of the blog do not affect the validity of the criticisms (which you appear to be unable to rebut). Brunton ( talk) 07:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I will simply quote the statistics that the Linde article has found. This is not wp:or. Based on what you've written, it sounds like you do not even have the Linde (1994) article. Please be careful of stonewalling. DanaUllman Talk 17:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
At the end of the first paragraph, the article states: "however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community.[3][7][8]" Because none of these 3 references make specific reference to the Arsenicum album studies, this part of the sentence has no place here. As my friends might say, this is [WP:OR].
Under "Research Studies," the New Scientist article starts by referring to this study as having the researchers describing their study as having "highly promising results." It is strange that our article here only quotes the skeptic rather than the researcher. Further, the article at present says: "However, Andreas Gescher, a biochemical toxicologist interviewed by New Scientist, said "This kind of study uses a dilution so high there is hardly anything there... Is it really possible?" and went on to say that he was "extremely skeptical".[11]" The New Scientist article noted that although Gescher was "extremely skeptical," he also referred to this study as interesting. DanaUllman Talk 00:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Friend Dana, I think it would be helpful to consolidate discussion of the Cazin paper and bring it to a final conclusion as to whether it should be referenced in the Article. 1. Was the study randomised and blinded? 2. On the basis that a series of 'potencies' was used, did the study show that there is a monotonic increase in effect with increased 'potency' (i.e. increased dilution/repeated replacement with solvent)? The importance of the second question is that, if the study was well-performed, as will be resolved by reference to the first question, then its results may be consistent with an effect of supra-Avogadrean dilution of white arsenic but it would also give strong evidence against one of homeopathy's core doctrines. A secondary issue arises, that if the study was not well-performed then the credibility of your Linde (1994) meta-analysis is undermined despite your having said, "It was referenced by a major meta-analysis (Linde, et al 1994) and described as a "high quality trial."... Dana Ullman Talk 02:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)". I would be grateful for the page, paragraph and line in the Linde (1994) paper where the phrase included in your quotation marks was used in relation to the Cazin paper. In passing I note that Linde reported that "1.3" percent of the papers they examined (Table 3b) reported randomization of their samples. I am intrigued to know how that figure of 1.3% was achieved given that the denominator of the fraction was either 105 studies (Abstract, point 3) or 116 studies (Pg 484, Para 1, Line 8). Linde and his colleagues seem to have invented a non-integer way of counting research papers. OffTheFence ( talk) 14:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Does OffTheFence still want to know if randomization took place in the Cazin experiment so that we can know with certainty if blue-eyed mice just happened to be in the treatment group in greater numbers than the brown-eyed mice (because we "know" that blue-eyed mice live longer). On a more serious note, the Linde paper required that the studies included in their final meta-analysis had to have a QE of 50 or greater AND had to have "no major methodological deficiencies." Let's move along. And please, OffTheFence, stop your personal attacks. If my edits have untruths, please provide verifiable of them. Show us your evidence...and please do not allege that my quotes above are not "verifiable" just because you personally do not seem to have a copy of the article. DanaUllman Talk 17:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
We seem to have drifted away from my first question. Was the Cazin study blinded and randomised? OffTheFence ( talk) 18:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Pending Dana providing verification of the reliability of the Cazin study I have altered the article text to a more modest form. If Dana cannot demonstrate that the Cazin study was blinded and randomised then it is confirmed as not reliable and I shall remove reference to both it and the Linde study. Linde would have to be eliminated because it would have proven to be non-reliable. OffTheFence ( talk) 20:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed "found" to "claimed" in the article, because "found" is an interpretative expression implying that the editor infers objective truth from the paper. "found" cannot be used where there is any doubt over a study's validity. "claimed" simply allows a NPOV statement of the paper's result. OffTheFence ( talk) 09:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
As an aid to Dana here are the questions that need to be addressed about Cazin. In CAPS again. HAVE YOU, DANA, READ THE CAZIN (1987) PAPER? WAS THE CAZIN (1987) STUDY BLINDED AND RANDOMISED? PLEASE GIVE THE DIRECT QUOTATION AND PAGE REFERENCE FROM THE MATERIALS AND METHODS SECTION WHERE THIS IS CONFIRMED. DID THE CAZIN (1987) STUDY SHOW A MONOTONICALLY INCREASED EFFECT WITH INCREASED 'POTENCY', i.e. INCREASED NUMBER OF DILUTION STEPS? Enough CAPS!! I thank you in advance for your attention to these questions and the clear answers you will give to them. OffTheFence ( talk) 01:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Should we even be calling the Linde study an "independent meta-analysis"? Being that Linde is a member of the Centre for Complementary Medicine Research at Technische Universität München (conflict 1), he has been quoted elsewhere supporting other alternative treatments (acupuncture (conflict 2)), and a sizable number of his publications are of the support for alternative treatment variety (3). Does anyone else see an issue with calling this independent? It also doesn't help that it was published in a journal with a low impact factor and a fairly dismal rating. As mentioned by OffTheFence, this does not help it's overall quality. Not everything in a "peer-reviewed" journal is necessarily an RS. Baegis ( talk) 19:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Baegis...in due respect, it seems that you haven't read the article here, but are just trying to argue. The fact of the matter is that there have been numerous follow-up studies to Cazin's set of studies...and they are referenced here. Further, there was a follow-up human trial...with clinical results and objective finding on liver enzymes. Please avoid stonewalling. And Linde seems to be an "advocate" for good science and for differentiating high quality vs. low quality research. He is an expert physician/epidemiologist who reports with sophistication on trials. Please cite RS that claims that his objectivity is in question, and stop your OR. Stop the silliness...your credibility is going. DanaUllman Talk 03:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I am purposefully not responding to your queries because the Linde paper confirms, according to their review of 30+ criteria, that the Cazin study has a greater than 50 QE, making it a high quality study. Anything else is simply OR. (By the way, it was your friend Dr88 who taught me how to speak wiki language. Bless his soul.) DanaUllman Talk 22:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I found this other double-blind and placebo controlled "pilot study." Although the researchers seem to be a similar group as the other human trial, the numbers of people involved in this study seems to be different and suggests that this is a separate and additional clinical trial. [16] As in the other clinical trial, the researchers found dramatic objective changes in toicity biomarkers and pathological parameters in blood. This journal is notable, and so is this study. DanaUllman Talk 22:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The journal, Science of the Total Environment, is a respected journal with an international editorial board and with a reasonably good impact factor of 2.359. The above editors can say what they want about this study, but I'm more interested in what reliable sources say. I trust the peer-review process much more than anonymous wiki-editors. I agree that I cannot say with authority why more people taking a placebo in this trial dropped out, even though one might assume that the reduced drop-out rate in the treatment group might have been because the treatment group was getting more benefit. However, one can say that the patients in this trial who were in the treatment group experienced therapeutic benefits AND have dramatic changes in toxicity biomarkers and pathological parameters in their blood. Unless an editor can make reference to a published critique of this study, it deserves a short acknowledgement in this article and a reference to it. DanaUllman Talk 03:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I have now looked at the Cazin paper in some detail and here is what I have found. OffTheFence ( talk) 08:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
re: Cazin: no report of blinding or randomisation. No adjustment made for multiple comparisons. Bizarre (in terms of homeopathic doctrine) dose-response curves.
re: Linde: Blinding and Randomisation % are tiny (1.3 and 7.8%). Cazin cannot be part of that % because we now know it was not reported as B&R.
re: Linde's definition of high quality and Dana's quoting of what was "high quality". QE is not defined. Dana has cited QE as if it was some externally verifiable standard of quality. It is not. Linde et al cite no source to verify what QE means and have not defined it within the paper. It appears to be an invention of the editors. The proportion of QE >50% was 43% so this must include studies that were not or did not report B&R.
Dana has put in quotes "high quality" for QE>50%. Linde has not defined that, it is Dana's interpretation. We saw the same with the citation of the Frass study. The phrase "substantially significant" was used by Dana, but it eventually emerged that this was an interpretation not a direct quotation despite its having been placed in quotation marks. In this instance, the words "high quality" do literally appear in the article, as do many other words, but their use in Dana's context does not derive from Linde but his own WP:OR.
Even if Linde had made the definition that their 43% QE>50% = "high quality", this category contains many articles that are not B&R. A maximum of 1.3 of those 43% were randomised. Therefore at least 97% (=(43-1.3)/43) of these allegedly "high quality" studies were not randomised. At least 79% (=(43-(1.3+7.8))/43) were neither B nor R. Based on what he has said, Dana now cannot avoid accepting that lack of B&R is a "major methodological deficienc[y]". So in a real-world sense most of Linde's QE>50% have at least two major flaws and therefore cannot be high quality in any normal sense. It also means that Linde is internally contradictory because their subset of papers that do not have "major methodological deficiencies" must include a high proportion that do have "major methodological deficiencies" . Linde may be a "reliable source" in that it is from a peer-reviewed journal, some quotes from it can be verified, but it is hopelessly, woefully, badly performed.
Dana has correctly reported that Cazin is one of Linde's QE>50% papers, which Dana equates with "high quality". He has also explicitly stated that " Blinding is a necessary (!) component of high quality" and he said in response to questioning about randomisation in the Cazin paper "that the Linde paper required that the studies included in their final meta-analysis had to have a QE of 50 or greater AND had to have "no major methodological deficiencies."", which can only mean that a lack of randomisation would be a "major methodological deficienc[y]" and that therefore Cazin was randomised. I have the Cazin paper in front of me literally as I type this and it does not report either blinding or randomisation. I shall let Dana explain this discrepancy, but for now let it stand that Cazin bore what Dana acknowledged as "major methodological deficiencies".
Linde is poor quality. Cazin is poor quality. Linde's analysis is defective and internally contradictory. There is a discrepancy between the way Cazin has been represented in this discussion and what the paper actually reports. Both are from "reliable sources" and the study contents are "verifiable" so some of Wikipedia's boxes are ticked. But, neither should be cited in the Article space. If either is cited I shall provide "balance" by editing to add direct quotations (not interpretations or Whig's "meta-analysis") that clarify what are their deficiencies. However, balancing these pathetic efforts would still lend them WP:UNDUE, better to publicly withdraw them from consideration (and bury them in a hole forever!).
In conclusion, friend Dana, you asked earlier "If my edits have untruths, please provide verifiable of them. Show us your evidence...and please do not allege that my quotes above are not "verifiable" just because you personally do not seem to have a copy of the article." I have now gone to the trouble and expense of providing "verifiable of them". QED.
I am very sorry that it has come to this. You have had repeated opportunities to correct any false impression that may have been given in the period while I have been waiting for the opportunity to report directly from the Cazin paper itself rather than Linde's second-hand account of it. On the assumption that you had read Cazin these matters could have been resolved easily. Also had you accepted that there was a serious problem with Linde's analysis there would have been no need to take things further. I do not know why you chose to act in the way you did but it is unfortunate that matters had to be brought to a head like this. OffTheFence ( talk) 08:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I had hoped not to do this, but what if I wave WP:REDFLAG over this whole area and see what survives? I remain astonished that having had the credibility of these papers destroyed the moral imperative to remove them does not seem obvious to everyone. OffTheFence ( talk) 15:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought I would share this comment I have received by e-mail by someone who has read this page- "That's getting surreal. Is it OR to actually read a paper and make up your mind about what it says now?" I don't think its writer will be joining us as an editor. OffTheFence ( talk) 22:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the self-consistency of my critiques does not seem to have enough weight, I shall also forget my PhD in pharmacology lest I be accused of arguing from authority (or even of lying!), so for the statistically naive I have a couple of quotes for you from one of my stats books: "By using sound principles of experimental design and, in particular, randomization, data can be generated that provide a more sound basis for deducing causality." and randomization serves "to guarantee inferential validity in the face of unspecified disturbances" Statistics for Experimenters. Box et al. Wiley Interscience (1978). Just thought I'd add that while we wait for people to mull this things over. OffTheFence ( talk) 14:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, in this pause, I'd like to ask Dana a question. Had you realised that the if the Cazin results were taken at face value they show the opposite effect to what homeopathy would predict? The only statistically significant effects were reported at pharmaceutical concentrations of arsenic. The "sub-Avogadrean" dilutions are non-significant, once adjustment is made for the multiple comparisons they did [24] and actually reported in the paper as non-significant for the highest potency. I have been drafting a new version of the entry and I think I would include this information because it comes straight from the source. In fact I am probably keener now to retain mention of these papers (as suggested by Eldereft [25]) but to suitably edit their entries. Is that helpful? OffTheFence ( talk) 14:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The following sentence is partially incorrect: "Some studies claim an effect for arsenicum album;[4][5][6] however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community.[3][7][8]" None of the latter 3 references to the scientific community not accepting these studies mention any of the Arsenicum album studies. What is seemingly meant here is that the scientific community is skeptical of homeopathy, but unless we can provide reference to the skepticism of the Arsenicum album studies specfically, we need to change this sentence or delete it. DanaUllman Talk 06:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It appears to be highly inappropriate to add an adjective like "fringe" to the statement "Some studies claim". What possible improvement to the article does such an intrusion of a POV bring? Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Now "fringe" is even being applied to journals so as to justify excluding their relevant data! Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
OffTheFence, now that you have both articles, you will note on p. 486 of the Linde paper that there were 9 experiments using high potencies of Arsenicum album that had a positive finding and 4 experiments that didn't (all of which had a QE of >50). When and if you plan to show details about the Cazin study, I will be curious if you noted the previous observation. We both will note that the medium potencies (as defined by 11X to 23X) had even better results, showing 16 positive studies and only 2 negative ones. I'm glad that we're providing more specificity here. DanaUllman Talk 01:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I have revised the Article in line with the above suggestions since Dana has not done so though he has been actively editing elsewhere. I have lead with Linde, because that is a secondary source and should be accorded more weight under Wikipedia's guidelines. IIn accord with the discussions of the papers I have mentioned their obvious deficits to bring the discussion in line with WP:WEIGHT etc. I have also made mention of Cazin's apparent dose-response effect. I have also streamlined the rest of the section. I hope people are happy with this. OffTheFence ( talk) 16:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Dana has now agreed [29] a standard for meta-analyses which the Linde paper fails so I have removed reference to it and also to the Cazin study, which was of poor quality and only featured as cited by the secondary source Linde. OffTheFence ( talk) 18:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain this? We should have a consistent way of describing potency. I have no idea how 30X and 12C are different. -- JaGa ( talk) 09:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Having looked into this in some depth, there is a huge amount of confusion, inconsistency and contradiction in the homeopathic literature about potencies and succussion. Some say that M1 is 1000C. Some say M1 is dilution by 1 in 1000. If you look carefully you will find multiple descriptions of how to prepare LM doses, all different, and none appear to be dilution by 1 in 50,000. Some advocate 10 succusions between dilution (even suggesting that if one succusses 9 or 11 times the dose will be ruined). Some 40. Some 100. Some dilute 1 part active ingredient in 9 parts of diluent, and some in 10 to form 1X or D1 preparations. And so on. It is all pretty confused.-- Filll ( talk) 17:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Those are indeed the standard definitions. Unfortunately, there are others that claim otherwise. Oh well.-- Filll ( talk) 03:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Well to be honest, none of the homeopathic sources I have found seem particularly reliable on anything, including homeopathy. But
here is a source that claims 1M is the same as 1 part in 1000. There are many others, but I gather this is not the standard definition of 1M. Also,
Tinus Smits video gives a definition of 1C as 1 part in 101, not 1 part in 100, etc. There are again many similar sources that claim something different from the standard definition of 1C, 2C, 3C, etc. Also, there are a variety of other potency scales, like that for the Swan potency scale, for which
3 1/3 revolutions, or 333 1/3 cubic inches of water, with
From [31]. One can find other variations as well that are nonstandard. Then,
The process for making the LM1 dilution is to take a medicated round pellet of lactose/sucrose using a 3C potency (on the basis of one drop to medicate 500 poppy seed size pellets). This pellet is dissolved in 100 drops of water/alcohol and succussed. This represents the LM1. The LM2 is made then by taking one drop and medicating 500 pellets, wherefrom one is dissolved in another 100 drops of water alcohol. Again, one drop of this is used to medicate 500 pellets or fine globules. The 3C potency is arrived at by the process of trituration.
from [32] obviously comes nowhere close to producing 1 part in 50,000 for LM1, and 1 part in 2.5 x 109 for LM2. And not all descriptions of how to prepare LM1 and LM 2 etc are the same. I could go on and on and on.-- Filll ( talk) 01:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
100 to the 30th power and 101 to the 30th power, or more, you actually have substantial differences. 10030=1x1060, but 10130=1.348x 1060. It is even worse on the decimal scale, where 1030=1x30 and 1130=1.745x1031. And there are sources that can be found where this "error" or nonstandard description is found. And it is confusing, even if it is wrong. And it makes it very difficult to document this field. And stating that LM means dilution by 1 part in 50,000 when it is already starting at 1 part in a million is a bit misleading. And the procedure even then will not give successive dilutions by 1 part in 50,000. But ok, since it is correct, that is what I will use.-- Filll ( talk) 12:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course, it is highly unlikely that we can detect the difference between any of these and each other, or any of these and just the pure diluent, at the higher potencies.-- Filll ( talk) 14:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
For clarity's sake, the results from these studies should be presented THEN the problems with the study should be addressed, ie results then conclusion (which includes problems). That's how things are done. Any problems with this anyone, other than Dana? Baegis ( talk) 23:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
<undent> Maybe I am confused, but my impression was that homeopathy did so poorly in double blinded studies that it was common to argue that double blinded studies do not work in homeopathy because of some special hidden magical features. Am I wrong? I am positive I remember seeing this claim over and over that homeopathy is special so we cannot use double blinded studies in the case of homeopathy to judge it. -- Filll ( talk) 17:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The 2005 trial on humans that is cited in this article [34] not only showed reduction in arsenic in the blood of patients given homeopathic Arsenicum album, but it also showed changes in various toxicity markers. The abstract noted: "The activities of various toxicity marker enzymes and compounds in the blood, namely aspartate amino transferase, alanine amino transferase, acid phosphatase, alkaline phosphatase, lipid peroxidation were monitored up to three months." In the results section, they noted, "A desirable change in these biomarkers (an increase in GSH and decreases in ALT, AST, AcP, AlkP and LPO) on drug administration suggests its potential in alleviating As toxicity in humans." (Note: As = Arsenic) They also stated, "the notable changes observed in activities of these enzymes/biomarkers could be considered as convincing indicators of improvement in hepatic functions, which in turn were amply reflected in increased appetite reported by most of the subjects taking the ‘verum’ and also as factors influencing the amelioration of other As-induced toxicity." I suggest that something be added which says, "Not only did homeopathic doses of Arsenicum album have a beneficial effect on reducing arsenic levels in the blood, but it positively influenced various toxicity markers in the body of patients given the homeopathic medicine and led to improved health status." Any comments? DanaUllman Talk 04:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
trials) with larger groups of affected people from adjoining areas is essential before recommending large-scale use of this potentized drug on As affected people". It also says it need more testing to know how long the effect lasts. It cites no known mechanism for the effect: "How the ultralow dose of the drug could (cause the effects on the subjects) remains unclear". The only explanation for its mechanism us an indication that it could work by activation of genes, and then refers to notes 39 and 40, both being works from the main article author (doh, not a good signal) -- Enric Naval ( talk) 04:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey Shoemaker...slow down...we all sometimes read too fast and miss things. I did not say that the 1994 meta-analysis included any reference to the 2003 and 2005 studies (that would be more than a tad silly). In actual fact, I made reference to two good RS articles in the New Scientist that commented on the 2003 & 2005 studies. As for the Cazin article, it was not simply listed in the Linde 1994 article; it was discussed and have provided a specific quote about that in previous discussion. Since you seem to be a newbie in this discussion, I encourage you to read our past dialogue. As for Enric's comments, the comments on the research on Arsenicum album has only been in the light of animals or humans who were exposed to arsenic poisoning. Is someone suggesting otherwise? DanaUllman Talk 15:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
DanaUllman Talk 01:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
If this one study had a different results than the others, it may be suspect. However, in this case, this was one of several studies all of which consistently have confirmed similar results. The link that you provided to publication bias has no real bearing here. Why should only homeopathic research require reference to funding? This is not NPOV. DanaUllman Talk 05:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Shoemaker, you chose to make many additions and changes to the article without consensus. There is danger in doing so, as you have been previously warned. The bigger problem is that your changes are mis-informed. When Linde wrote in 1999 and more recently about newer research, he was referring to clinical trials, not animal trials dealing with environmental toxicology (as you have suggested). In fact, the newer research that has dealt with Arsenicum album (which, if you remember, is the subject of THIS article, has consistently shown positive results. Unless you can provide evidence for Linde's comments relating with Arsencium album and/or environmental toxicology, your additions will need to be changed or deleted. Also, you have a propensity to not provide edit summaries (just like many previous sock puppets who have previously edited on this article). I am not saying that you are a sock, though I hope that you will provide edit summaries. DanaUllman Talk 20:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the Cazin study as non-notable, see [35] for reasoning, evidence of non-notability, and evidence that Dana's claims for it have been vastly inflated. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 20:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Below are several more studies testing homeopathic Arsenicum album that were referenced in one of the RS references in the Arsenicum album article [^ a b Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.] Ironically (!), the editors here reference this article to two statements: (1) "there is insufficient evidence for it to be considered effective medicine (for any condition) by the scientific community" and (2) "the ideas behind homeopathy are scientifically implausible and directly opposed to fundamental principles of natural science and modern medicine, which means that poorly-conducted, small, or unblinded studies are not considered scientific proof of efficacy." However, those editors who cherry-picked these references also chose not to make reference to the author's statement, "Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.28-30,80-82" Also, the authors made reference to numerous studies (Geckler and Samal; Rey) as well as the broad body of hormesis to provide evidence that it is not completely accurate to conclude, "Basic science research appears to suggest that the use of extremely dilute solutions may not be as implausible as has been claimed."
Here are those additional Arsenicum album studies that are worthy of reference in this article. Mitra K, Kundu SN, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing toxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 1. On rate of accumulation of arsenic in certain organs. Complement Ther Med. 1998;6:178–84.
Mitra K, Kundu SN, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing toxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 2. On alterations of body weight, tissue weight and total protein. Complement Ther Med. 1999;7:24–34. [PubMed]
Datta S, Mallick P, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug in reducing genotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 1. Comparative studies of pre-, post- and combined pre- and post-oral administration and comparative efficacy of two microdoses. Complement Ther Med. 1999;7:62–75. [PubMed]
Datta S, Mallick P, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug in reducing genotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 2. Comparative efficacy of an antibiotic, actinomycin D alone and in combination with either of two microdoses. Complement Ther Med. 1999;7:156–63. [PubMed]
Kundu SN, Mitra K, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing cytotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 4. Pathological changes, protein profiles and content of DNA and RNA. Complement Ther Med. 2000;8:157–65. [PubMed]
Kundu SN, Mitra K, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing cytotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 3. Enzymatic changes and recovery of tissue damage in liver. Complement Ther Med. 2000;8:76–81. [PubMed] DanaUllman Talk 04:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey folks, I wonder if the editors who complained about the "shuffling" of names have conducted a body of research. It is quite common for some individuals in a group of researchers to take the lead in some studies and other researchers take the lead in other studies. This isn't anything more than that. There is nothing at all unusual about it, and I'm tad confused about anyone making this a mountain OR a molehill. DanaUllman Talk 05:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I am very sorry to say this, but Dana and some of the other "pro-homeopathy" supporters seem to not quite understand what NPOV means.
What NPOV means is that we have a mix of material about all subjects. It does not mean neutral. It does not mean positive. There will be criticism. One cannot pad FRINGE articles only with positive studies and remove negative studies.
And this is what is driving the problems. It is a lack of understanding of the fundamental philosophy of Wikipedia. If the pro-homeopathy editors do not understand this philosophy, there will be nothing but arguing and fighting and eventually, blocking and banning.-- Filll ( talk) 12:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear. Well so you resort to Wikilawyering instead? Hmmm...Sorry if I offended anyone.-- Filll ( talk) 17:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This is long past the point where pandering to tendentious editing can be justified by agf. Further cherry picking of studies on the talk page should simply be ignored. Attempts to insert them into the article should be regarded as disruptive editing and dealt with accordingly. Jefffire ( talk) 18:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Nice try Arion 3x3. But incorrect. Why on earth would you come to that conclusion?--
Filll (
talk)
22:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Neutral tone is not quite the same. As I said before, NPOV means there will be lots of negative material included.-- Filll ( talk) 00:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
So you believe "Fairness of tone" means that the mainstream view is not represented? Interesting.-- Filll ( talk) 01:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
So what is the problem then?--
Filll (
talk)
02:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not prepared at this point to spend countless hours digging through the hundreds if not thousands of articles and studies that exist. Others have done some of this. I will defer to them on these points for the time being. However, I just think we would all be much more productive if there was a tacit acknowledgement on the part of all that the pillars of Wikipedia, including NPOV, which does not mean neutral are followed. On this article and on the main article and others, I have witnessed just terrible wikilawyering and hairsplitting ad infinitum for the last few months. Frankly, all that this will do is get the pro-homeopathy editors banned or blocked, as has happened to the last several who tried this tactic. Notice a pattern? Think you will be immune from the same fate? Think again. I do not want to lose Dana Ullman as an editor here on Wikipedia in particular, but if something is not done to shift attitudes and modes of working towards a more conciliatory and cooperative stance, I guarantee it will happen. I am very sorry to tell you this, but I have seen it too often in the past. And I want to stop it from happening if at all possible.--- Filll ( talk) 17:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Not in the way you interpret it. Jimbo even gave a speech about this a year or two back. Sorry. --
Filll (
talk)
17:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Legally and medically, the experiments by Khuda-Bukhsh and Cazin that were done with Arsenicum album were with homeopathic doses of it (there is no such thing as "tautopathic" doses...and even the subject of tautopathy is an application within the broad field of homeopathy). These articles have direct reference here. Other research on homeopathy in general should simply be linked by the word "homeopathy." In actual fact, these studies also support the evidence from the more recent and better controlled studies. Finally, please remember that the Cazin study has several secondary sources, as does the work of Khuda-Bukhsh. DanaUllman Talk 04:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
"Basic science research on the biological effects of highly diluted solutions has yielded mixed results The results showed that extreme dilutions of histamine-inhibited basophil activation models behave in a reproducible fashion. However, it should be noted that other studies of equal quality have not been able to reproduce these findings."
This should be added in the article. It is a quote from "Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice?" Objections comments? http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17429507-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 15:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If there are no objections I could add it - I suppose.-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
This is not a rational objection. It is not according to the rules of wikipedia. The administrators might ban you- you know. Please reconsider and participate in the conversation. -- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The rationale for adding information on studies not about the subject of the article totally eludes me. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It should be apparent that the quality or value of the Wikipedia article on Arsenicum album is not improved by removing reliably sourced research on the biological effects of homeopathic potencies of Arsenicum album. I would recommend that Shoemaker or anyone else removing such an important part of this article justify its removal and reach a consensus before anymore such deletions. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Good grief, is this microscopically insignificant topic still being disputed? Irrelevant material should be excluded, as Baegis says. If those basophil papers were inserted here they'd have to be inserted on every page where a homeopathic remedy is mentioned. That would be ridiculous. However, making a general comment about the overall inadequacies of the homeopathic literature base is quite appropriate and serves WP:WEIGHT very well. It is the equivalent of the health warning on a packet of cigarettes. There would be no problem if such a general comment was reduced to a concise form and added to all pages on homeopathic remedies. OffTheFence ( talk) 10:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#DanaUllman Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 01:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The merge tag on Arsenic_trioxide was pointing to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Arsenicum_album, but the closing admin there states "There is no immediately apparent consensus as to whether or not the article should be merged to one of a number of proposed other articles, but that is a matter for editors to work out", so I have created this section so I can link the tag here -- Enric Naval ( talk) 12:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I saw one edit by Martin [37] and I was struck by a sudden sensation of deja vu, something like "I have reverted this edit before but I don't remember why".
Afte checking, it was this edit by ismejudith [38] and when I reverted it I said on my edit summary that it appeared to be changing what the source said [39]. I have reverted it again for the same reason. The edit is changing the meaning of the sentence without checking what the source actually said. Can someone check the source and write here an exact quote of what the source says so we can include it on the reference and people will stop changing it?
And, please, Martin, nothing personal, but please leave the sentence as it was placed originally until the source is cheked. I assume that the person that first added the sentence had just read the source and used the correct wording. I'll be grateful if someone finds the edit of when the source was added so we can see what wording the original editor used. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 07:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've just found this article, and wouldn't you know that I find many of the most frequent anti-homeopathy editors here. Hello everyone! This article is another piece of evidence that many of the anti-homeopathy editors assert that there is "no scientific research" on this or that subject within homeopathy, and yet, either these editors are purposefully ignoring the body of basic science evidence and clinical research or they are choosing to not look and simply asserting that there is no research (when you don't look for something, it is indeed hard to find it). What is also so interesting is the degree of self-justification that goes on in the homeopathy-bashing and the unapologetic tendencies for either ignoring or attacking homeopathic research. "How convenient" is all I have to say about the lack of references to the scientific literature at this article, especially when there is a reasonable body of basic science work (testing homeopathic doses of this medicine) and clinical trials too. This article deserves better than where it is now...let's try to maintain the good wiki-spirit in this process. My apology if I'm sounding a bit arrogant or paternalistic, but coming to this article fresh, I can't help but feel that the editors here are asleep at the wheel (and seem to be proud to be asleep). Eeeeks. Dana Ullman Talk 06:18, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
This article is a helpful addition to the understanding of homeopathy, especially since "placebo effect" cannot be attributed to the mice. I've corrected the reference formatting by adding {{reflist}}. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 13:45, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
If a patient is suffering from arsenic poisoning, because they are being exposed, via the water you drink, to arsenic, in the amount of X per day, how is giving dx, where dx is an additional but infinitesimal amount of arsenic, for a total of X+dx, going to "remedy" the arsenic poisoning? It doesn't. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3WnEo46h4A, which discuss homeopathic dillution. I will be adding this to the article. TableManners C· U· T 07:11, 26 January 2008 (UTC)
[3] is by homeopathic manufacturer Boiron, published in a minor journal, and which says in the abstract that it's a pilot study ("This pilot study was conducted on 20 males and 19 females of village Dasdiya") where over a third its subjects dropped out. As such, it does not pass WP:RS.
The second article's site is not working at present. However, The New Scientist article and related piece have some oddities, but the one unrelated scientist interviewed says that he is "extremely skeptical". I'm sure w ecould track down response letters.
The third one is claimed to be in a "major journal" (J.C. Cazin et al.. "A Study of the Effect of Decimal and Centesimal Dilution of Arsenic on Retention and Mobilization of Arsenic in the Rat," Human Toxicology, July 1987.)
Unfortunately, the journal "Human Toxicology" does not seem to actually exist, and an online search for the title ( [4]) comes up with no reliable source. Vanished User talk 02:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Vanished User talk 01:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
It's been 5 years since the New Scientist article. What has happened since? Any follow up? -- Rifleman 82 ( talk) 03:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
The section about "Claims of efficacy" now has provided undue weight to the fringe-minority belief that this substance does something. PouponOnToast ( talk) 14:13, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Deleting properly sourced scientific data, without reaching a consensus with your fellow editors, is not the best way to edit Wikipedia (or any other encyclopedia). Using "fringe-minority belief" as justification is simply not acceptable. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 14:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
"The evidence of bias weakens the findings of our original meta-analysis [7]. Since we completed our literature search in 1995, a considerable number of new homeopathy trials have been published. The fact that a number of the new high-quality trials (e.g. [14,15]) have negative results, and a recent update of our review for the most “original” subtype of homeopathy (classical or individualized homeopathy [16]), seem to confirm the finding that more rigorous trials have less-promising results. It seems, therefore, likely that our meta-analysis [7] at least overestimated the effects of homeopathic treatments."
Linde et al, Impact of Study Quality on Outcome in Placebo-Controlled Trials of Homeopathy, J Clin Epidemiol Vol. 52, No. 7, pp. 631–636, 1999, doi: 10.1016/S0895-4356(99)00048-7
Since Linde et al. have rejected the findings of their metaanalysis after further study, I believe the results from it should be considered superseded. Vanished User talk 14:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
That's true, Dana, but the 1994 (not 1995) study is being misused here all the same. Here's a quote from that article:
You've ignored the findings of Linde et al, and instead reported the bits of data that suit your point of view. Hesperian 04:38, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
If we're going to cite Linde et al., is it perhaps worth mentioning that Linde and Jonas don't seem to think that their work has proven homoeopathy effective? In a letter published in The Lancet in 2005 they wrote "Our 1997 meta-analysis has unfortunately been misused by homoeopaths as evidence that their therapy is proven"; presumably they wouldn't have felt the need to express this regret if their earlier work had established the effectiveness of homoeopathy. Brunton ( talk) 12:51, 17 February 2008 (UTC)
Friends, the statement "rare reports of arsenic poisoning from poorly-prepared homeopathic treatments have been reported" needs to be striked. First, it is a report from India with such a low dose of arsenic that it would be illegal to have in the U.S. or any European country. Dana Ullman Talk 06:53, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The below statement was deleted without comment. This is a RS (the journal is now called "Human Toxicology" and is highly respected in the field): Another animal study testing various homeopathic doses of arsenic on mice was published in a leading toxicology journal and showed statistically significant effects. [1]
Based on the paragraph above that describes one more study, it seems a little funny (and inaccurate) to refer to all three studies as "preliminary." As for the mechanism of action, it wasn't until somewhat recently that we began to understand how aspirin works...and this didn't influence its acceptability. The reference to the "mechanism of action" has no place here. This article should emphasize what is known, not necessarily what is unknown (if we were to say what we don't know about something, then most of each article would discuss the various things we don't know. Further, this is an article about Arsenicum album, not the entire field of homeopathy. The reference #3, #6, and #7 and the partial sentence connected to it have no place here.
Here's what is presently written with my recommended changes (I suggest that we add the above study after reference #5): Some small, preliminary studies claim an effect for arsenicum album;[4][5] however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community, as there is no known mechanism by which such highly-diluted substances could work, and large scale scientific studies say that any perceived medicinal effects of homeopathy are almost certainly due to the placebo effect.[3][6][7] —Preceding
unsigned comment added by
Danaullman (
talk •
contribs)
07:32, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The reasons that the Cazin (1987) study is notable is that it was published in one of the leading journals in toxicology. It was conducted at a major French university and department of pharmacology. It showed a statistically significant result. It was referenced by a major meta-analysis (Linde, et al 1994) and described as a "high quality trial." It has had several replications that have confirms its results. It has V, RS, and 3rd party confirmation...it has them all. At this point, it is your responsibility to assert why it should not be in there. Dana Ullman Talk 02:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
--BELON P., BISWAS S.J., KARMAKAR S.R., BANERJEE P., BANERJEE A., DAS J.K., PATHAK S., CHOUDHURY C., BHATTACHARJEE N., GUHA B. Is an elevated anticuclear antibody titer in subjects living in two groundwater Arsenic contaminated villages indicative of a time-dependent effect of Arsenic exposure? Environmental Science (2007) , vol 2 (1), 10-16 --BANERJEE P., BHATTACHARYYA S.S., PATHAK S., BOUJEDAINI N., BELON P., KHUDA6BUKHSH A.R. Comparative efficacy of two microdoses of a potentized homeopathic drug, Arsenicum album, to ameliorate toxicity induced by repeated sublethal injections of Arsenic trioxide in mice. Pathobiology 2008 in press Dana Ullman Talk 18:31, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
The abstract of "Is an elevated antinuclear etc", available here, appears to have nothing whatsoever to say about homeopathy. What makes you think it is a replication of Linde et al? Perhaps, Dana, you could lay out for me all the relevant published studies into this preparation, indicating the significance of each? Hesperian 04:40, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I haven't expressed an opinion on whether the Cazin study should or shouldn't be included, as yet. I'm trying to form an opinion, but I am confused. I imagine it is at least possible that my confusion will not be resolved by "slowing down a tad and reading your posts properly." Considering you gave a wrong year above, a wrong journal title above, a wrong journal title in the article citation under dispute, and put forward a reference that turns out to be unsuitable for this article, I think you may bear at least a small portion of responsibility for my confusion.
I really think we could all benefit from you doing as I requested a post ago, and laying out all the relevent published studies into this preparation, indicating the significance of each. If I only had a clear idea of what had been published, what was a replication study of what, and the quality of each journal, then we might be able to get to the bottom of all this.
Hesperian 00:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
First of all, the Lancet (2005) article was not a "meta-analysis." It was a comparison of studies (conventional vs. homeopathic). Although many physicians and scientists have reported sharp critique of this study that has no external validity, this article ignores one of its important conclusions. The researchers found that 21 of the homeopathic clinical trials were "high quality," while only 9 of the conventional medical studies were of a similar "high quality." Because people in this article on Arsenicum album include a statement about the quality of homeopathic research, we need to have a statement that a more recent analysis and comparison of homeopathic and conventional studies found that "more than twice as many of the homeopathic studies were of high quality as compared to those testing conventional medicines." Although I suggest that the reference to Lancet and Int'l Journal of Epidemiology articles should be deleted, we should include this observation from the Lancet article if we are going to include them. Dana Ullman Talk 02:30, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, the Shang analysis found several medical trials to be inadequate for one reason or another as it did with the homeopathy trials. That is not surprising or important. The important conclusion is that as the quality of trial increased, the medical trials showed significant effects against the placebo while the homeopathic preparations showed little difference from the placebo. Acleron ( talk) 10:00, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
I understand and don't need your help here in seeing the lack of external validity that the Shang paper had. Shang never responded to that critique, nor did he (or you) give us an analysis of the high quality trials. Do you or do you not have this analysis? Please give us this information or acknowledge that Shang purposefully left it out because it would give credence to homeopathy...or are you now saying that high quality randomized double-blind placebo controlled trials are "unscientific"? As for critique of the Shang paper, there are so many good critiques that there are even editorials about the junk science that it was: [10] Are you now choosing to ignore editorials too? Dana Ullman Talk 15:26, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Shang took the best homeopathic trials they could find. Why do you find this remarkable? The main point is that when the the best trials where examined they showed the inadequacy of homeoptathy. Acleron ( talk) 02:24, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
There seemed to be consensus at the AfD that this should be moved somewhere. Shall we try to establish a consensus where? — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:42, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Dana: what part of "The result was keep in the sense of "not delete". There is no immediately apparent consensus as to whether or not the article should be merged to one of a number of proposed other articles, but that is a matter for editors to work out." did you fail to understand? Hrafn Talk Stalk 16:29, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
Assuming that merging it to arsenic trioxide or water (or more accurately lactose) would be violently opposed by pro-homeopathy editors, and given that homeopathy is already quite large, would it be appropriate to suggest List of homeopathic preparations as the first candidate for an up/down vote on merger? Hrafn Talk Stalk 16:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't have a horse in this race, but, FYI, the person that nominated this article for deletion has been identified as a sockpuppet and has been blocked indefinately. See [11].-- Hjal ( talk) 07:32, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Hello. I've been asked to provide my uninvolved opinion on whether or not a merge is appropriate, so here I am. Looking at the AFD, which was quite recent, it seems that the majority of editors wanted to keep the article. In my opinion, as there are so many potential merge targets, a merge would be quite lengthy and difficult to perform, and some of the content would likely be lost in the merge process. There is also the possibility of upsetting the currently shaky balance on other Homeopathy articles, causing more drama. Arsenicum album seems to have enough references to establish notability and verifiability, yet another reason to not merge. To boil this down: I do not think a merge would be appropriate at all. Keilana| Parlez ici 02:49, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
Friends, it was discovered yesterday that these two editors were sock puppets of User:Unprovoked. I think that any and all of the comments that they have made above can now be ignored, and any and all edits and deletions that they did can now be undone. Is that right? It is more than a tad ironic that people who assert themselves as being definers of science, as arbitrators of what is a "reliable source," and as defenders of mainstream medicine are themselves not very reliable. Dana Ullman Talk 01:22, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanx Baegis. It was not my intention to "attack" them anymore. I have only been actively editing on wiki since late November and am unclear on certain policies. I also felt that it was important to let other editors know about these socks because they were very active here and seemed to create the illusion of much greater support than really existed. Further, I am still concerned that some good references that I have given have still been deleted from the article (such as the study by Cazin). Other problems with this article:
-- The second half of the following sentence from the article is without substantiation. There is no specific reference to the research on Arsenicum album in any of the cited references. This half of the sentence needs to be deleted: "Some small, preliminary studies claim an effect for arsenicum album;[4][5] however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community, as there is no known mechanism by which such highly-diluted substances could work, and large scale scientific studies say that any perceived medicinal effects of homeopathy are almost certainly due to the placebo effect.[3][6][7]"
-- I am not clear why this sentence is in this article because there are numerous studies using this medicine in animal trials. This sentence should be deleted: "It is generally accepted in medicine that conclusions as to the efficacy of any preparation cannot be made from a single study."
-- I have previously placed information in this article that was deleted without discussion. It should be re-inserted: Besides the above arsenic trials, there is a body of animal research using homeopathic doses of various toxic substances to reduce the effects of crude, toxic doses of that specific substance. A meta-analysis of 105 trials was published in Human and Experimental Toxicology.[Linde, K., Jonas, W.B., Melchart, D., et al. (1994) "Critical Review and Meta-Analysis of Serial Agitated Dilutions in Experimental Toxicology," Human and Experimental Toxicology, 13:481-92.] Although most of these studies were not high quality research, the studies that tended to show the most significant effects from homeopathic doses were the high quality studies. The researchers found that there were 40 high quality studies, of which 27 showed positive results from homeopathic doses (there were 50% more positive results than negative results). Of special interest were nine studies on mice which tested homeopathic doses beyond 15C that demonstrated a 40% decrease in mortality compared to mice in the control group.
Many people here may be familiar with the high standards of research for which Linde and Jonas are known. Their metaanalysis is WP:RS and WP:Notable. 24.5.193.22 ( talk) 16:56, 10 February 2008 (UTC) Dana Ullman Talk 16:58, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't mind the link to "Evidence based medicine" but find the link to the homeopathy article doesn't provide adequate NPOV. I also find it curious that this section quotes from the New Scientist article and uses only a skeptic's viewpoint, not the primary researcher's point of view, for which the article primarily focuses. I hope to find an appropriate quote and place it here. Any objections? Dana Ullman Talk 06:11, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Did we reach a consensus that this edit was acceptable and I missed it? PouponOnToast ( talk) 08:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
and this? PouponOnToast ( talk) 08:20, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I believe that it was appropriate to remove that irrelevant material. The problem is that material had been added with the intent of "debunking" and discrediting homeopathy in general, and has no place in an article on arsenicum album. We should never underestimate the intelligence of Wikipedia's readers. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 16:13, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Given that Dana's probation apparently allows for edits that are good but not discussed, I should be clear - I do not believe the entire section on effectiveness adds any value, but if we have to include the fringe studies by true believers, we also need to include the meta analysis that debunks them and the standard view that it's placebo. I consider Dana's edits to provide undue weight to a fringe view that this substance does something by removing any and all mention of the cited view that some people believe the substance does nothing. PouponOnToast ( talk) 18:18, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Per WP:BRD I have removed the difficult section on "Claims of efficacy" as it doesn't add much to the article generally and is the locus of dispute. I will not take reversion of this edit as edit warring whatsoever. PouponOnToast ( talk) 17:22, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree that general studies on homeopathic research should not be in this article, especially a meta-analysis which did not evaluate or include studies mentioned here on arsenicum album. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 21:32, 14 February 2008 (UTC)
Arthur Rubin deleted this meta-analysis that includes information about the arsenic studies and confirms the [notability] of this high quality research. The meta-analysis provides a good review of animal research on environmental toxicology and has direct meaning/value to this article (please note that I am NOT referring to the Linde meta-analysis in 1997 on clinical trials...that is a different article). I recommend that we re-insert Linde meta-analysis on enviromental toxicology. The difference between THIS meta-analysis and the Shang (2005) comparison of studies is that the Shang meta-analysis does not include any of the research on Arsenicum (the subject of THIS article) nor on environmental toxicology. I recommend removing of those references unless someone can specifically cite that these articles reviewed and condemned this research as invalid or not notable. Dana Ullman Talk 19:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Dana Ullman Talk 19:03, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanx for AGF. Back at ya. The Linde/Jonas metaanalysis (1994) was published in a WP:RS. Because I sometimes write from home (where I do not have copies of the specific papers in front of me), I sometimes write from memory. I mis-remembered the changed name of the journal in which this article was published (no big deal). The high calibre work of both Linde and Jonas is highly recognized. Reference to this meta-analysis is important in THIS article because it verifies that the animal trials with Arsenicum album mentioned here are recognized as "high quality" trials. Because some editors here insist upon evidence in reliable sources and notability, reference to the Arsenicum trials AND the meta-analysis are important. I'm not clear with any logic to delete either. Dana Ullman Talk 15:48, 18 February 2008 (UTC)
In reference to the Frass study on COPD, here are its results: The amount of tracheal secretions was reduced significantly in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Extubation (the removal of obstructive mucus from the lung with a tube) could be performed significantly earlier in group 1 (p < 0.0001). Similarly, length of stay was significantly shorter in group 1 (4.20 +/- 1.61 days vs 7.68 +/- 3.60 days, p < 0.0001 [mean +/- SD]). Correct me if I'm wrong: when p < 0.05, this suggests statistical significance, but when p < 0.001, it is substantially significant. These results were beyond this result. These results were impressive. As for the Linde comment, I will get the specific quote from the Linde/Jonas (1994) meta-analysis about the arsenic studies shortly. DanaUllman Talk 03:03, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
The Frass et al study was severely criticised because of the clinical difference between the placebo and treated groups before treatment [15]. These problems do not make this study notable or its results remarkable Acleron ( talk) 10:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
Brunton...Actually, it is YOUR responsibility to make the case that the critique given at that blog is notable and is a reliable source. If not, move on to a critique that has that.
Arthur...my point in referencing the Linde meta-analysis is that they recognize the Cazin study as a "high quality" and the fact that they (and others) make reference to the Cazin study verify its notability. The fact that several other studies have verified the efficacy of homeopathic Arsenicum album in helping to excrete crude doses of arsenic showed that this research has been repeated by independent parties. At this point, it would seem that resistance for inclusion is stonewalling. A strong case has been made. DanaUllman Talk 03:26, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
[To Dana] It is not proposed that the critique from the blog be used as an authority in an article: it is being put forward here to question whether the Frass study is as notable as you seem to think it is. The notability or reliability of the blog do not affect the validity of the criticisms (which you appear to be unable to rebut). Brunton ( talk) 07:42, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I will simply quote the statistics that the Linde article has found. This is not wp:or. Based on what you've written, it sounds like you do not even have the Linde (1994) article. Please be careful of stonewalling. DanaUllman Talk 17:48, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
At the end of the first paragraph, the article states: "however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community.[3][7][8]" Because none of these 3 references make specific reference to the Arsenicum album studies, this part of the sentence has no place here. As my friends might say, this is [WP:OR].
Under "Research Studies," the New Scientist article starts by referring to this study as having the researchers describing their study as having "highly promising results." It is strange that our article here only quotes the skeptic rather than the researcher. Further, the article at present says: "However, Andreas Gescher, a biochemical toxicologist interviewed by New Scientist, said "This kind of study uses a dilution so high there is hardly anything there... Is it really possible?" and went on to say that he was "extremely skeptical".[11]" The New Scientist article noted that although Gescher was "extremely skeptical," he also referred to this study as interesting. DanaUllman Talk 00:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Friend Dana, I think it would be helpful to consolidate discussion of the Cazin paper and bring it to a final conclusion as to whether it should be referenced in the Article. 1. Was the study randomised and blinded? 2. On the basis that a series of 'potencies' was used, did the study show that there is a monotonic increase in effect with increased 'potency' (i.e. increased dilution/repeated replacement with solvent)? The importance of the second question is that, if the study was well-performed, as will be resolved by reference to the first question, then its results may be consistent with an effect of supra-Avogadrean dilution of white arsenic but it would also give strong evidence against one of homeopathy's core doctrines. A secondary issue arises, that if the study was not well-performed then the credibility of your Linde (1994) meta-analysis is undermined despite your having said, "It was referenced by a major meta-analysis (Linde, et al 1994) and described as a "high quality trial."... Dana Ullman Talk 02:22, 2 February 2008 (UTC)". I would be grateful for the page, paragraph and line in the Linde (1994) paper where the phrase included in your quotation marks was used in relation to the Cazin paper. In passing I note that Linde reported that "1.3" percent of the papers they examined (Table 3b) reported randomization of their samples. I am intrigued to know how that figure of 1.3% was achieved given that the denominator of the fraction was either 105 studies (Abstract, point 3) or 116 studies (Pg 484, Para 1, Line 8). Linde and his colleagues seem to have invented a non-integer way of counting research papers. OffTheFence ( talk) 14:28, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Does OffTheFence still want to know if randomization took place in the Cazin experiment so that we can know with certainty if blue-eyed mice just happened to be in the treatment group in greater numbers than the brown-eyed mice (because we "know" that blue-eyed mice live longer). On a more serious note, the Linde paper required that the studies included in their final meta-analysis had to have a QE of 50 or greater AND had to have "no major methodological deficiencies." Let's move along. And please, OffTheFence, stop your personal attacks. If my edits have untruths, please provide verifiable of them. Show us your evidence...and please do not allege that my quotes above are not "verifiable" just because you personally do not seem to have a copy of the article. DanaUllman Talk 17:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
We seem to have drifted away from my first question. Was the Cazin study blinded and randomised? OffTheFence ( talk) 18:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Pending Dana providing verification of the reliability of the Cazin study I have altered the article text to a more modest form. If Dana cannot demonstrate that the Cazin study was blinded and randomised then it is confirmed as not reliable and I shall remove reference to both it and the Linde study. Linde would have to be eliminated because it would have proven to be non-reliable. OffTheFence ( talk) 20:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
I have changed "found" to "claimed" in the article, because "found" is an interpretative expression implying that the editor infers objective truth from the paper. "found" cannot be used where there is any doubt over a study's validity. "claimed" simply allows a NPOV statement of the paper's result. OffTheFence ( talk) 09:02, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
As an aid to Dana here are the questions that need to be addressed about Cazin. In CAPS again. HAVE YOU, DANA, READ THE CAZIN (1987) PAPER? WAS THE CAZIN (1987) STUDY BLINDED AND RANDOMISED? PLEASE GIVE THE DIRECT QUOTATION AND PAGE REFERENCE FROM THE MATERIALS AND METHODS SECTION WHERE THIS IS CONFIRMED. DID THE CAZIN (1987) STUDY SHOW A MONOTONICALLY INCREASED EFFECT WITH INCREASED 'POTENCY', i.e. INCREASED NUMBER OF DILUTION STEPS? Enough CAPS!! I thank you in advance for your attention to these questions and the clear answers you will give to them. OffTheFence ( talk) 01:28, 24 February 2008 (UTC)
Should we even be calling the Linde study an "independent meta-analysis"? Being that Linde is a member of the Centre for Complementary Medicine Research at Technische Universität München (conflict 1), he has been quoted elsewhere supporting other alternative treatments (acupuncture (conflict 2)), and a sizable number of his publications are of the support for alternative treatment variety (3). Does anyone else see an issue with calling this independent? It also doesn't help that it was published in a journal with a low impact factor and a fairly dismal rating. As mentioned by OffTheFence, this does not help it's overall quality. Not everything in a "peer-reviewed" journal is necessarily an RS. Baegis ( talk) 19:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Baegis...in due respect, it seems that you haven't read the article here, but are just trying to argue. The fact of the matter is that there have been numerous follow-up studies to Cazin's set of studies...and they are referenced here. Further, there was a follow-up human trial...with clinical results and objective finding on liver enzymes. Please avoid stonewalling. And Linde seems to be an "advocate" for good science and for differentiating high quality vs. low quality research. He is an expert physician/epidemiologist who reports with sophistication on trials. Please cite RS that claims that his objectivity is in question, and stop your OR. Stop the silliness...your credibility is going. DanaUllman Talk 03:51, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I am purposefully not responding to your queries because the Linde paper confirms, according to their review of 30+ criteria, that the Cazin study has a greater than 50 QE, making it a high quality study. Anything else is simply OR. (By the way, it was your friend Dr88 who taught me how to speak wiki language. Bless his soul.) DanaUllman Talk 22:13, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
I found this other double-blind and placebo controlled "pilot study." Although the researchers seem to be a similar group as the other human trial, the numbers of people involved in this study seems to be different and suggests that this is a separate and additional clinical trial. [16] As in the other clinical trial, the researchers found dramatic objective changes in toicity biomarkers and pathological parameters in blood. This journal is notable, and so is this study. DanaUllman Talk 22:40, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
The journal, Science of the Total Environment, is a respected journal with an international editorial board and with a reasonably good impact factor of 2.359. The above editors can say what they want about this study, but I'm more interested in what reliable sources say. I trust the peer-review process much more than anonymous wiki-editors. I agree that I cannot say with authority why more people taking a placebo in this trial dropped out, even though one might assume that the reduced drop-out rate in the treatment group might have been because the treatment group was getting more benefit. However, one can say that the patients in this trial who were in the treatment group experienced therapeutic benefits AND have dramatic changes in toxicity biomarkers and pathological parameters in their blood. Unless an editor can make reference to a published critique of this study, it deserves a short acknowledgement in this article and a reference to it. DanaUllman Talk 03:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I have now looked at the Cazin paper in some detail and here is what I have found. OffTheFence ( talk) 08:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
re: Cazin: no report of blinding or randomisation. No adjustment made for multiple comparisons. Bizarre (in terms of homeopathic doctrine) dose-response curves.
re: Linde: Blinding and Randomisation % are tiny (1.3 and 7.8%). Cazin cannot be part of that % because we now know it was not reported as B&R.
re: Linde's definition of high quality and Dana's quoting of what was "high quality". QE is not defined. Dana has cited QE as if it was some externally verifiable standard of quality. It is not. Linde et al cite no source to verify what QE means and have not defined it within the paper. It appears to be an invention of the editors. The proportion of QE >50% was 43% so this must include studies that were not or did not report B&R.
Dana has put in quotes "high quality" for QE>50%. Linde has not defined that, it is Dana's interpretation. We saw the same with the citation of the Frass study. The phrase "substantially significant" was used by Dana, but it eventually emerged that this was an interpretation not a direct quotation despite its having been placed in quotation marks. In this instance, the words "high quality" do literally appear in the article, as do many other words, but their use in Dana's context does not derive from Linde but his own WP:OR.
Even if Linde had made the definition that their 43% QE>50% = "high quality", this category contains many articles that are not B&R. A maximum of 1.3 of those 43% were randomised. Therefore at least 97% (=(43-1.3)/43) of these allegedly "high quality" studies were not randomised. At least 79% (=(43-(1.3+7.8))/43) were neither B nor R. Based on what he has said, Dana now cannot avoid accepting that lack of B&R is a "major methodological deficienc[y]". So in a real-world sense most of Linde's QE>50% have at least two major flaws and therefore cannot be high quality in any normal sense. It also means that Linde is internally contradictory because their subset of papers that do not have "major methodological deficiencies" must include a high proportion that do have "major methodological deficiencies" . Linde may be a "reliable source" in that it is from a peer-reviewed journal, some quotes from it can be verified, but it is hopelessly, woefully, badly performed.
Dana has correctly reported that Cazin is one of Linde's QE>50% papers, which Dana equates with "high quality". He has also explicitly stated that " Blinding is a necessary (!) component of high quality" and he said in response to questioning about randomisation in the Cazin paper "that the Linde paper required that the studies included in their final meta-analysis had to have a QE of 50 or greater AND had to have "no major methodological deficiencies."", which can only mean that a lack of randomisation would be a "major methodological deficienc[y]" and that therefore Cazin was randomised. I have the Cazin paper in front of me literally as I type this and it does not report either blinding or randomisation. I shall let Dana explain this discrepancy, but for now let it stand that Cazin bore what Dana acknowledged as "major methodological deficiencies".
Linde is poor quality. Cazin is poor quality. Linde's analysis is defective and internally contradictory. There is a discrepancy between the way Cazin has been represented in this discussion and what the paper actually reports. Both are from "reliable sources" and the study contents are "verifiable" so some of Wikipedia's boxes are ticked. But, neither should be cited in the Article space. If either is cited I shall provide "balance" by editing to add direct quotations (not interpretations or Whig's "meta-analysis") that clarify what are their deficiencies. However, balancing these pathetic efforts would still lend them WP:UNDUE, better to publicly withdraw them from consideration (and bury them in a hole forever!).
In conclusion, friend Dana, you asked earlier "If my edits have untruths, please provide verifiable of them. Show us your evidence...and please do not allege that my quotes above are not "verifiable" just because you personally do not seem to have a copy of the article." I have now gone to the trouble and expense of providing "verifiable of them". QED.
I am very sorry that it has come to this. You have had repeated opportunities to correct any false impression that may have been given in the period while I have been waiting for the opportunity to report directly from the Cazin paper itself rather than Linde's second-hand account of it. On the assumption that you had read Cazin these matters could have been resolved easily. Also had you accepted that there was a serious problem with Linde's analysis there would have been no need to take things further. I do not know why you chose to act in the way you did but it is unfortunate that matters had to be brought to a head like this. OffTheFence ( talk) 08:06, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
I had hoped not to do this, but what if I wave WP:REDFLAG over this whole area and see what survives? I remain astonished that having had the credibility of these papers destroyed the moral imperative to remove them does not seem obvious to everyone. OffTheFence ( talk) 15:53, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
I thought I would share this comment I have received by e-mail by someone who has read this page- "That's getting surreal. Is it OR to actually read a paper and make up your mind about what it says now?" I don't think its writer will be joining us as an editor. OffTheFence ( talk) 22:04, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Since the self-consistency of my critiques does not seem to have enough weight, I shall also forget my PhD in pharmacology lest I be accused of arguing from authority (or even of lying!), so for the statistically naive I have a couple of quotes for you from one of my stats books: "By using sound principles of experimental design and, in particular, randomization, data can be generated that provide a more sound basis for deducing causality." and randomization serves "to guarantee inferential validity in the face of unspecified disturbances" Statistics for Experimenters. Box et al. Wiley Interscience (1978). Just thought I'd add that while we wait for people to mull this things over. OffTheFence ( talk) 14:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
Also, in this pause, I'd like to ask Dana a question. Had you realised that the if the Cazin results were taken at face value they show the opposite effect to what homeopathy would predict? The only statistically significant effects were reported at pharmaceutical concentrations of arsenic. The "sub-Avogadrean" dilutions are non-significant, once adjustment is made for the multiple comparisons they did [24] and actually reported in the paper as non-significant for the highest potency. I have been drafting a new version of the entry and I think I would include this information because it comes straight from the source. In fact I am probably keener now to retain mention of these papers (as suggested by Eldereft [25]) but to suitably edit their entries. Is that helpful? OffTheFence ( talk) 14:30, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
The following sentence is partially incorrect: "Some studies claim an effect for arsenicum album;[4][5][6] however, these are not widely accepted within the scientific community.[3][7][8]" None of the latter 3 references to the scientific community not accepting these studies mention any of the Arsenicum album studies. What is seemingly meant here is that the scientific community is skeptical of homeopathy, but unless we can provide reference to the skepticism of the Arsenicum album studies specfically, we need to change this sentence or delete it. DanaUllman Talk 06:19, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
It appears to be highly inappropriate to add an adjective like "fringe" to the statement "Some studies claim". What possible improvement to the article does such an intrusion of a POV bring? Arion 3x3 ( talk) 17:03, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
Now "fringe" is even being applied to journals so as to justify excluding their relevant data! Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:54, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
OffTheFence, now that you have both articles, you will note on p. 486 of the Linde paper that there were 9 experiments using high potencies of Arsenicum album that had a positive finding and 4 experiments that didn't (all of which had a QE of >50). When and if you plan to show details about the Cazin study, I will be curious if you noted the previous observation. We both will note that the medium potencies (as defined by 11X to 23X) had even better results, showing 16 positive studies and only 2 negative ones. I'm glad that we're providing more specificity here. DanaUllman Talk 01:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
I have revised the Article in line with the above suggestions since Dana has not done so though he has been actively editing elsewhere. I have lead with Linde, because that is a secondary source and should be accorded more weight under Wikipedia's guidelines. IIn accord with the discussions of the papers I have mentioned their obvious deficits to bring the discussion in line with WP:WEIGHT etc. I have also made mention of Cazin's apparent dose-response effect. I have also streamlined the rest of the section. I hope people are happy with this. OffTheFence ( talk) 16:52, 3 March 2008 (UTC)
Dana has now agreed [29] a standard for meta-analyses which the Linde paper fails so I have removed reference to it and also to the Cazin study, which was of poor quality and only featured as cited by the secondary source Linde. OffTheFence ( talk) 18:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Could someone explain this? We should have a consistent way of describing potency. I have no idea how 30X and 12C are different. -- JaGa ( talk) 09:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Having looked into this in some depth, there is a huge amount of confusion, inconsistency and contradiction in the homeopathic literature about potencies and succussion. Some say that M1 is 1000C. Some say M1 is dilution by 1 in 1000. If you look carefully you will find multiple descriptions of how to prepare LM doses, all different, and none appear to be dilution by 1 in 50,000. Some advocate 10 succusions between dilution (even suggesting that if one succusses 9 or 11 times the dose will be ruined). Some 40. Some 100. Some dilute 1 part active ingredient in 9 parts of diluent, and some in 10 to form 1X or D1 preparations. And so on. It is all pretty confused.-- Filll ( talk) 17:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Those are indeed the standard definitions. Unfortunately, there are others that claim otherwise. Oh well.-- Filll ( talk) 03:22, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
Well to be honest, none of the homeopathic sources I have found seem particularly reliable on anything, including homeopathy. But
here is a source that claims 1M is the same as 1 part in 1000. There are many others, but I gather this is not the standard definition of 1M. Also,
Tinus Smits video gives a definition of 1C as 1 part in 101, not 1 part in 100, etc. There are again many similar sources that claim something different from the standard definition of 1C, 2C, 3C, etc. Also, there are a variety of other potency scales, like that for the Swan potency scale, for which
3 1/3 revolutions, or 333 1/3 cubic inches of water, with
From [31]. One can find other variations as well that are nonstandard. Then,
The process for making the LM1 dilution is to take a medicated round pellet of lactose/sucrose using a 3C potency (on the basis of one drop to medicate 500 poppy seed size pellets). This pellet is dissolved in 100 drops of water/alcohol and succussed. This represents the LM1. The LM2 is made then by taking one drop and medicating 500 pellets, wherefrom one is dissolved in another 100 drops of water alcohol. Again, one drop of this is used to medicate 500 pellets or fine globules. The 3C potency is arrived at by the process of trituration.
from [32] obviously comes nowhere close to producing 1 part in 50,000 for LM1, and 1 part in 2.5 x 109 for LM2. And not all descriptions of how to prepare LM1 and LM 2 etc are the same. I could go on and on and on.-- Filll ( talk) 01:00, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
100 to the 30th power and 101 to the 30th power, or more, you actually have substantial differences. 10030=1x1060, but 10130=1.348x 1060. It is even worse on the decimal scale, where 1030=1x30 and 1130=1.745x1031. And there are sources that can be found where this "error" or nonstandard description is found. And it is confusing, even if it is wrong. And it makes it very difficult to document this field. And stating that LM means dilution by 1 part in 50,000 when it is already starting at 1 part in a million is a bit misleading. And the procedure even then will not give successive dilutions by 1 part in 50,000. But ok, since it is correct, that is what I will use.-- Filll ( talk) 12:39, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Of course, it is highly unlikely that we can detect the difference between any of these and each other, or any of these and just the pure diluent, at the higher potencies.-- Filll ( talk) 14:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
For clarity's sake, the results from these studies should be presented THEN the problems with the study should be addressed, ie results then conclusion (which includes problems). That's how things are done. Any problems with this anyone, other than Dana? Baegis ( talk) 23:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
<undent> Maybe I am confused, but my impression was that homeopathy did so poorly in double blinded studies that it was common to argue that double blinded studies do not work in homeopathy because of some special hidden magical features. Am I wrong? I am positive I remember seeing this claim over and over that homeopathy is special so we cannot use double blinded studies in the case of homeopathy to judge it. -- Filll ( talk) 17:02, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
The 2005 trial on humans that is cited in this article [34] not only showed reduction in arsenic in the blood of patients given homeopathic Arsenicum album, but it also showed changes in various toxicity markers. The abstract noted: "The activities of various toxicity marker enzymes and compounds in the blood, namely aspartate amino transferase, alanine amino transferase, acid phosphatase, alkaline phosphatase, lipid peroxidation were monitored up to three months." In the results section, they noted, "A desirable change in these biomarkers (an increase in GSH and decreases in ALT, AST, AcP, AlkP and LPO) on drug administration suggests its potential in alleviating As toxicity in humans." (Note: As = Arsenic) They also stated, "the notable changes observed in activities of these enzymes/biomarkers could be considered as convincing indicators of improvement in hepatic functions, which in turn were amply reflected in increased appetite reported by most of the subjects taking the ‘verum’ and also as factors influencing the amelioration of other As-induced toxicity." I suggest that something be added which says, "Not only did homeopathic doses of Arsenicum album have a beneficial effect on reducing arsenic levels in the blood, but it positively influenced various toxicity markers in the body of patients given the homeopathic medicine and led to improved health status." Any comments? DanaUllman Talk 04:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
trials) with larger groups of affected people from adjoining areas is essential before recommending large-scale use of this potentized drug on As affected people". It also says it need more testing to know how long the effect lasts. It cites no known mechanism for the effect: "How the ultralow dose of the drug could (cause the effects on the subjects) remains unclear". The only explanation for its mechanism us an indication that it could work by activation of genes, and then refers to notes 39 and 40, both being works from the main article author (doh, not a good signal) -- Enric Naval ( talk) 04:03, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Hey Shoemaker...slow down...we all sometimes read too fast and miss things. I did not say that the 1994 meta-analysis included any reference to the 2003 and 2005 studies (that would be more than a tad silly). In actual fact, I made reference to two good RS articles in the New Scientist that commented on the 2003 & 2005 studies. As for the Cazin article, it was not simply listed in the Linde 1994 article; it was discussed and have provided a specific quote about that in previous discussion. Since you seem to be a newbie in this discussion, I encourage you to read our past dialogue. As for Enric's comments, the comments on the research on Arsenicum album has only been in the light of animals or humans who were exposed to arsenic poisoning. Is someone suggesting otherwise? DanaUllman Talk 15:52, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
DanaUllman Talk 01:19, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
If this one study had a different results than the others, it may be suspect. However, in this case, this was one of several studies all of which consistently have confirmed similar results. The link that you provided to publication bias has no real bearing here. Why should only homeopathic research require reference to funding? This is not NPOV. DanaUllman Talk 05:39, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Shoemaker, you chose to make many additions and changes to the article without consensus. There is danger in doing so, as you have been previously warned. The bigger problem is that your changes are mis-informed. When Linde wrote in 1999 and more recently about newer research, he was referring to clinical trials, not animal trials dealing with environmental toxicology (as you have suggested). In fact, the newer research that has dealt with Arsenicum album (which, if you remember, is the subject of THIS article, has consistently shown positive results. Unless you can provide evidence for Linde's comments relating with Arsencium album and/or environmental toxicology, your additions will need to be changed or deleted. Also, you have a propensity to not provide edit summaries (just like many previous sock puppets who have previously edited on this article). I am not saying that you are a sock, though I hope that you will provide edit summaries. DanaUllman Talk 20:20, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I've removed the Cazin study as non-notable, see [35] for reasoning, evidence of non-notability, and evidence that Dana's claims for it have been vastly inflated. Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 20:37, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Below are several more studies testing homeopathic Arsenicum album that were referenced in one of the RS references in the Arsenicum album article [^ a b Johnson T, Boon H (2007). "Where does homeopathy fit in pharmacy practice?". American journal of pharmaceutical education 71 (1): 7. PMID 17429507.] Ironically (!), the editors here reference this article to two statements: (1) "there is insufficient evidence for it to be considered effective medicine (for any condition) by the scientific community" and (2) "the ideas behind homeopathy are scientifically implausible and directly opposed to fundamental principles of natural science and modern medicine, which means that poorly-conducted, small, or unblinded studies are not considered scientific proof of efficacy." However, those editors who cherry-picked these references also chose not to make reference to the author's statement, "Pharmacists should also be aware that the data assessing the efficacy of homeopathy are mixed—there are rigorous, reproducible studies that show homeopathy is effective,39,42-44 and equally scientifically sound studies that show it is not.28-30,80-82" Also, the authors made reference to numerous studies (Geckler and Samal; Rey) as well as the broad body of hormesis to provide evidence that it is not completely accurate to conclude, "Basic science research appears to suggest that the use of extremely dilute solutions may not be as implausible as has been claimed."
Here are those additional Arsenicum album studies that are worthy of reference in this article. Mitra K, Kundu SN, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing toxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 1. On rate of accumulation of arsenic in certain organs. Complement Ther Med. 1998;6:178–84.
Mitra K, Kundu SN, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing toxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 2. On alterations of body weight, tissue weight and total protein. Complement Ther Med. 1999;7:24–34. [PubMed]
Datta S, Mallick P, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug in reducing genotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 1. Comparative studies of pre-, post- and combined pre- and post-oral administration and comparative efficacy of two microdoses. Complement Ther Med. 1999;7:62–75. [PubMed]
Datta S, Mallick P, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug in reducing genotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 2. Comparative efficacy of an antibiotic, actinomycin D alone and in combination with either of two microdoses. Complement Ther Med. 1999;7:156–63. [PubMed]
Kundu SN, Mitra K, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing cytotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 4. Pathological changes, protein profiles and content of DNA and RNA. Complement Ther Med. 2000;8:157–65. [PubMed]
Kundu SN, Mitra K, Khuda-Bukhsh AR. Efficacy of a potenized homeopathic drug (arsenicum album-30) in reducing cytotoxic effects produced by arsenic trioxide in mice: 3. Enzymatic changes and recovery of tissue damage in liver. Complement Ther Med. 2000;8:76–81. [PubMed] DanaUllman Talk 04:12, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Hey folks, I wonder if the editors who complained about the "shuffling" of names have conducted a body of research. It is quite common for some individuals in a group of researchers to take the lead in some studies and other researchers take the lead in other studies. This isn't anything more than that. There is nothing at all unusual about it, and I'm tad confused about anyone making this a mountain OR a molehill. DanaUllman Talk 05:09, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I am very sorry to say this, but Dana and some of the other "pro-homeopathy" supporters seem to not quite understand what NPOV means.
What NPOV means is that we have a mix of material about all subjects. It does not mean neutral. It does not mean positive. There will be criticism. One cannot pad FRINGE articles only with positive studies and remove negative studies.
And this is what is driving the problems. It is a lack of understanding of the fundamental philosophy of Wikipedia. If the pro-homeopathy editors do not understand this philosophy, there will be nothing but arguing and fighting and eventually, blocking and banning.-- Filll ( talk) 12:56, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Oh dear. Well so you resort to Wikilawyering instead? Hmmm...Sorry if I offended anyone.-- Filll ( talk) 17:57, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This is long past the point where pandering to tendentious editing can be justified by agf. Further cherry picking of studies on the talk page should simply be ignored. Attempts to insert them into the article should be regarded as disruptive editing and dealt with accordingly. Jefffire ( talk) 18:47, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Nice try Arion 3x3. But incorrect. Why on earth would you come to that conclusion?--
Filll (
talk)
22:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Neutral tone is not quite the same. As I said before, NPOV means there will be lots of negative material included.-- Filll ( talk) 00:07, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
So you believe "Fairness of tone" means that the mainstream view is not represented? Interesting.-- Filll ( talk) 01:23, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
So what is the problem then?--
Filll (
talk)
02:57, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not prepared at this point to spend countless hours digging through the hundreds if not thousands of articles and studies that exist. Others have done some of this. I will defer to them on these points for the time being. However, I just think we would all be much more productive if there was a tacit acknowledgement on the part of all that the pillars of Wikipedia, including NPOV, which does not mean neutral are followed. On this article and on the main article and others, I have witnessed just terrible wikilawyering and hairsplitting ad infinitum for the last few months. Frankly, all that this will do is get the pro-homeopathy editors banned or blocked, as has happened to the last several who tried this tactic. Notice a pattern? Think you will be immune from the same fate? Think again. I do not want to lose Dana Ullman as an editor here on Wikipedia in particular, but if something is not done to shift attitudes and modes of working towards a more conciliatory and cooperative stance, I guarantee it will happen. I am very sorry to tell you this, but I have seen it too often in the past. And I want to stop it from happening if at all possible.--- Filll ( talk) 17:38, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Not in the way you interpret it. Jimbo even gave a speech about this a year or two back. Sorry. --
Filll (
talk)
17:46, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
Legally and medically, the experiments by Khuda-Bukhsh and Cazin that were done with Arsenicum album were with homeopathic doses of it (there is no such thing as "tautopathic" doses...and even the subject of tautopathy is an application within the broad field of homeopathy). These articles have direct reference here. Other research on homeopathy in general should simply be linked by the word "homeopathy." In actual fact, these studies also support the evidence from the more recent and better controlled studies. Finally, please remember that the Cazin study has several secondary sources, as does the work of Khuda-Bukhsh. DanaUllman Talk 04:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
"Basic science research on the biological effects of highly diluted solutions has yielded mixed results The results showed that extreme dilutions of histamine-inhibited basophil activation models behave in a reproducible fashion. However, it should be noted that other studies of equal quality have not been able to reproduce these findings."
This should be added in the article. It is a quote from "Where Does Homeopathy Fit in Pharmacy Practice?" Objections comments? http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=17429507-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 15:38, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
If there are no objections I could add it - I suppose.-- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:27, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
This is not a rational objection. It is not according to the rules of wikipedia. The administrators might ban you- you know. Please reconsider and participate in the conversation. -- 70.107.246.88 ( talk) 18:57, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
The rationale for adding information on studies not about the subject of the article totally eludes me. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 22:52, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
It should be apparent that the quality or value of the Wikipedia article on Arsenicum album is not improved by removing reliably sourced research on the biological effects of homeopathic potencies of Arsenicum album. I would recommend that Shoemaker or anyone else removing such an important part of this article justify its removal and reach a consensus before anymore such deletions. Arion 3x3 ( talk) 00:56, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Good grief, is this microscopically insignificant topic still being disputed? Irrelevant material should be excluded, as Baegis says. If those basophil papers were inserted here they'd have to be inserted on every page where a homeopathic remedy is mentioned. That would be ridiculous. However, making a general comment about the overall inadequacies of the homeopathic literature base is quite appropriate and serves WP:WEIGHT very well. It is the equivalent of the health warning on a packet of cigarettes. There would be no problem if such a general comment was reduced to a concise form and added to all pages on homeopathic remedies. OffTheFence ( talk) 10:44, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration#DanaUllman Shoemaker's Holiday ( talk) 01:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
The merge tag on Arsenic_trioxide was pointing to Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Arsenicum_album, but the closing admin there states "There is no immediately apparent consensus as to whether or not the article should be merged to one of a number of proposed other articles, but that is a matter for editors to work out", so I have created this section so I can link the tag here -- Enric Naval ( talk) 12:08, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I saw one edit by Martin [37] and I was struck by a sudden sensation of deja vu, something like "I have reverted this edit before but I don't remember why".
Afte checking, it was this edit by ismejudith [38] and when I reverted it I said on my edit summary that it appeared to be changing what the source said [39]. I have reverted it again for the same reason. The edit is changing the meaning of the sentence without checking what the source actually said. Can someone check the source and write here an exact quote of what the source says so we can include it on the reference and people will stop changing it?
And, please, Martin, nothing personal, but please leave the sentence as it was placed originally until the source is cheked. I assume that the person that first added the sentence had just read the source and used the correct wording. I'll be grateful if someone finds the edit of when the source was added so we can see what wording the original editor used. -- Enric Naval ( talk) 07:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)