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Armenia does not have a border with russia and georgia, only a border with georgia. This information is incorrect 205.209.91.171 ( talk) 23:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the lead say that Armenia is:
or...
Long overdue RfC. I believe there has been a consensus in the past, but it appears that a few users believe that the WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. Hence why we need an RfC. Étienne Dolet ( talk) Relisted by Winged Blades Godric at 14:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC) .Initiated on 23:00, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Republic of Armenia is situated in south-western part of Asia. The country occupies the north-eastern part of Armenian plateau – between Caucasus and Nearest Asia
After a century of newspeak applied to the geography and history of Armenia, all options are wrong. Terms that were once truthful have had their correct meaning taken away from them, making them now unusable. This is made worse by having an article that tries to cover a small and recently-formed modern country in the Southern Caucasus as well as a much larger geographical and historical Armenia whose history extends back some 2500 years. I think neither Western Asia or Eastern Europe should be in the lede. Southern Caucasus would be OK as long as it is made clear that it applies only to the territory of the modern republic. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 16:48, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Bad maps aside, only one side seems to be putting forth any kind of argument here. Why should the lead say neither or both? The geography seems pretty straightforward (Armenia being well to the south of the drainage divide), and the government of Armenia and the United Nations seem like pretty trustworthy authorities. - 165.234.252.11 ( talk) 20:43, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
The criterion of a discrete landmass is completely disregarded if the continuous landmass of Eurasia is classified as two separate continents: Europe and Asia. Physiographically, Europe and South Asia are peninsulas of the Eurasian landmass. However, Europe is widely considered a continent with its comparatively large land area of 10,180,000 square kilometres (3,930,000 sq mi), while South Asia, with less than half that area, is considered a subcontinent. The alternative view—in geology and geography—that Eurasia is a single continent results in a six-continent view of the world. Some view separation of Eurasia into Europe and Asia as a residue of Eurocentrism: "In physical, cultural and historical diversity, China and India are comparable to the entire European landmass, not to a single European country.[1].-- g. balaxaZe ★ 18:17, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
the images on the right include the code of arms of soviet Armenia can someone please replace or include the code of the arms of the Republic of Armenia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.217.133 ( talk) 05:20, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
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Armenia is the Middle East and this is why: Armenia is in West Asia at the bottom of the Caucasus in the Middle East. Armenia has many cultural relations with various ME countries. For example,
-Armenian food is practically identical to Arab and Turkish food (especially the Levantine Arab Countries).
-There have been multiple studies done that Armenians, Iranians, Greeks, Levantines, and Turks share many of each others DNA. I even took a DNA test think I was full Armenian and instead I got various Arab countries and Greece/Turkey.
-Persian and Armenian are in the same language group: Into-European. It is a fact that Armenian is most closely related to Greek and Persian and Arabs, Persians, and Armenian all share and borrow many words from each other.
-Traditional Armenian music is very similar to Persian traditional music
-Traditional Armenian garments are also similar to Persian and Levantine traditional garments and certain parts of Turkey
-Armenia is in West Asia (Middle East is technically a region in West Asia). Europe ends in Istanbul to the west and a very tip of the country Georgia. Only about 1/3–1/4 of Georgia if that, is in Europe.
-People may confuse Armenia for European only because of religion but by that logic part of Cyprus and Israel shouldn’t be Middle East. The 3 major Abrahamic religions came from the Middle East. If you think because of religion, well I can prove you wrong right now. The Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Ethopian orthodox churches are all in communion with each other. All these are ORIENTAL while “European” Christianity isn’t.
-Heck at one point, Armenia was half of Turkey and the northern tip of Iran and Azerbaijan and at one point controlled all of the Levant (Levant is Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Israel)
-Many loanwords: On average, there are more Turkish terms in spoken Armenian than Armenian in Turkish, and many many more that came from Persian into both Armenian and Turkish. At on, it was considered under the Iranian language group due to so many words and grammar being shared, but later was changed to an isolated group.
-Has Russian influence and Russian is considered second language but that doesn't make it less Middle Eastern. Lebanon was once controlled by France and French is spoken as second language, but doesn't take away ME origin. Lebanon is roughly about 50/50 Christian/Muslim and at one point was 70/30 Christian/Muslim. Christianity or religion doesn't dictate geography.
-Many maps don't always include Armenia in the ME purely for the reason it is not involved in politics like other countries are. They tend to stay away.
I would just like to edit the parts to prove its Middle Eastern :-) N31014 ( talk) 03:01, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
There seems to be an issue with the Open Street Map link in the General Information section. It was forcing the entire page to be one big link to another site. I've commented it out for the time being, so that the rest of the page works. It's osmrelation-inline|364066 Tastyniall ( talk) 09:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
"Human rights in Armenia tend to be better than those in most former Soviet republics" - that may be true, but "and have drawn closer to acceptable standards, especially economically" means nothing. Economics and human rights are entirely different matters. 203.80.61.102 ( talk) 22:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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The word "Multiparty" is not hyphenated, just like all the other words that begin with "multi": multiband, multicolored, multidisciplinary, multilane, multilingual, multiman, multinational, multiprocessor, multiracial, multistate, multiverse, multiword, multiyear,... 47.215.180.7 ( talk) 09:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
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Prime Minister of Armenia is Nikol Pashinyan. Wikipedia has it posted incorrectly. Please fix.
Thank you for your support in providing free information to help educate everybody in all matters.
Regards.. 2600:6C50:6C7F:FF49:DC57:BEF0:9FB4:CA03 ( talk) 02:15, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Armenia is a Parliamentary republic, starting today. Make changes in the article. 217.76.1.22 ( talk) 11:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, please do this. Especially the Government and Politics section makes no sense anymore. Rotbandito 20:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Its really shameful that the image of the Sun god temple text starts with "The pagan Garni Temple" . That's absurdity. High time to get rid of views like Pagans, heretics etc. These fundamentalism is so outdated that it takes away the beauty of what the Garni Temple represents. So let's call it the Sun Temple of Garni. Stop the nonsense words like Pagan etc. Besanebehumane ( talk) 09:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm aware that Armenian nationalism tends to stress how "indigenous" Armenians are -- indeed, Armenians are relatively indigenous to their lands compared to their Eastern, Western and Southern neighbors, whatever nationalist bs comes out of Turkey on this issue. The current view of modern scholarship is that no Indo-European people is really "autochtonous" (culturally/linguistically at least) since the two candidate Urheimats (the Kurgan and Anatolia) both saw linguistic and cultural replacement. Although such views that simply equate Urartu with Armenia, assert the unpopular Armenian IE hypothesis, and project this indigenous Armenian history much further back even to times like 2000 or 3000 BCE may be popular in Armenia , among the diaspora, and among some certain scholars who mainly study Armenia, they really are not popular outside of these groups. We cannot have this in the infobox, it is not NPOV. Here is a sampling of the more standard global viewpoint on the issue, which posits that although many Armenians descend from people who lived in Urartian times and there are many ways they are bona fide culturally heirs to Urartu, Armenia does not equal Urartu, and furthermore, Urartians were not ethnically Armenian and spoke a language that was certainly not even Indo-European, while Armenians likely played a role in the destruction of their state. If anything, the general view on Urartian is that if it has relatives, they are in the Northeast Caucasus (Chechen, Lezgin, etc), a view held by various famous Georgian linguists, as well as Diakonov, Starostin, etc.
Here is but a small sample of the international scholarship on the issue:
Levon Abrahamian, 1998 [ [2]]: This path to national identity transforms traces of distinctions between aliens and the imagined ethnic community in the deep past into a story of how such ali- ens actually formed a root of the primary reference-community. Thus, aliens present at the ethnic ìorigin timeî are symbolically transformed into ancestors. The aliens in the case of the Armenians are the Urartians, a Hurrian-speaking people who formed the state Urartu on the historical and present-day territory of Armenia in the period running roughly from 900 to 600 BC. Thus, one can say that the Armenian model of national-identity "fights" for the Armenian identity of the Urartians in order to stake a claim for the essen- tial "Armenianness" of regions once dominated by the Urartians. The symbolic construction of ancient ìUrartiansî as Armenians in contemporary Armenian national discourse can itself be explained in relation to gaps in the linguistic theories and empirical evidence used by the linguists and historians who, as I argued above, have played such a prominent role in formulating this discourse in the last decade. Though the already mentioned hypothesis of the Near Eastern motherland of the Indo- Europeans ìconfirmedî the ancient roots of the Armenians in their territory, the Hurrian speaking Urartians and their high culture formed a gap in the continuity of Armenian ìdeepî history. Thus, by identifying Urartu with Armenia, Armenian nationalists could trace the Armenian genealogical tree back to the most ancient times without any breaks in continuity. Little wonder, then, that Souren Aivazian, a champion of the idea of the Urar- tiansí Armenian origin, ìreadsî Urartian cuneiforms as written in proto-Armenian (Ai- vazian 1986: 30-31).
George Anchabadze : Urartu was an ancient state in the Caucasus... The native tongue of the ethnic kernel of this state apparently was close to the Vainakh-Daghestani linguistic group... Later, after the fall of Urartu, the ancient Armenian tribes gradually began to spread on the territory of Southern Transcaucasia, though the process of formation of the independent Armenian State protracted for the reason that the country was subject to the rule of the Persian, as well as Greek and Macedonian conquerors. It was only in 189 B.C. when the kingdom of Great Armenia came into being. The state reached the peak of its power in the first half of the 1st century B.C., when the Armenian Kingdom comprised a vast territory from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean.
Here is Diakonoff on Hurro-Urartian influences on Armenian -- note, influences. Not descent. [ [3]]. Urartian forms a substratum that influenced Armenian in the sort of way that Coptic would influence Egyptian Arabic [[ https://www.jstor.org/stable/602722?casa_token=kZBOhZfkyncAAAAA:jUHr3b79cPhw67xn4sPIMaAW13SWJM_w5tJNJKrqvuEIyJH7CxQpTa_h5Tk9JdodG9FiLIfKpsJibcMQM-Fol7k8xOtgiNhEgKMjG45f4ak4uHLe&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents ]]. Here for more info on Armenian's proposed "Alarodian" (i.e. related to Chechen, Lezgin, Avar etc) substratum via Urartian loans (not inherited) [ [4]].
It's quite possible, and posited by many people, that Armenians were present in Urartu, ruled over by a foreign people as a minority or even a majority. However, this does not make Urartu an "Armenian state", much less a factor in the formation of the modern Republic of Armenia.-- Calthinus ( talk) 06:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
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Please correct the punctuation of GDP_PPP and GDP_nominal in the infobox (decimal point instead of comma, which is thousand's separator). GDP_PPP = $28,282 billion has to be $28.282 billion, while GDP_nominal = $11,548 billion should be $11.548 billion. Axel Amsterdam ( talk) 13:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
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Thanks for fixing the other decimal separators. Please revert the last change to GDP_nominal_per_capita. It should be in the thousand's range, so $3,861 was correct and not $3.861. Axel Amsterdam ( talk) 13:47, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
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Armenia's size is NOT 29.743 km2 BUT 29,743 km2 2A02:AB88:638B:5E80:4D5D:68B3:729D:9AB1 ( talk) 07:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
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In the History section, under the Antiquity sub-section-- tiny typo: around 2107 BC Hayk foughy against Belus should be fought Semir.amis ( talk) 21:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Several deliberate attempts with edit warring have been made to remove content and sources from Establishment history infobox section. Restored the removed content Hayordi ( talk) 18:36, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
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Change the name of president, you’ve got wrong guy as otesident 2600:6C50:80:5B71:5D82:C58E:71AA:D0FA ( talk) 23:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
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What about the 11-30 thousand who fought in World War II against the Soviets? And why no mention of Drastamat Kanayan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1002:B019:CEC7:110F:2427:65C5:283A ( talk) 03:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
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The reference to Lake Van in the Eymology section does not have a link to Lake Van's wikipedia page: /info/en/?search=Lake_Van Bayazkus ( talk) 03:35, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Somebody has replaced the Armenian flag as the Turkish flag. This needs to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:EF90:9F20:6945:E4C4:79A5:D678 ( talk) 20:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
As you may know, recent hostilities have broken out between the Republic of Armenia and Republic of Azerbaijan over the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh (Azeri: Qarabag, Armenian: Artsakh). While skirmishes have been common since the cessation of hostilities in 1994, a second war seems almost certain after Armenian PM Nikol Pashayan mobilized the army and declared martial law in response to Azeri shelling of civilian buildings. This has caused a wave of vandalism, with a recent editor replacing the flag of Armenia with the flag of the Republic of Turkey, an Azeri ally (due to them both being of the Turkic race). I propose that the articles of Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Turkey be subject to an extended-confirmed protection lock until hostilities cease. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsobol0513 ( talk • contribs) 20:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC) Dsobol0513 ( talk) 20:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I agree. R. J. Dockery ( talk) 16:58, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Concerning Archives908's revert of an edit in the article on Armenia concerning a more accurate description of what it borders on and where, the explanation given with it reads "rvt, not necessary and redundant, already mentioned in the lede".
While there is indeed mention of it in the lead, I imagine that people who want to read about the geography almost immediately click on the title "Geography" (that is what I did).
If there is a place in an article where the more/most detailed messages go, I prefer they go in the designated sections. The less detailed description could then go in the lead.
So I argue for a factual and accurate description there, and for a re-instatement of my previous edit (or for another edit one to the same effect).
This is, by the way, similar to e.g. the geography description in the article for Canada, where the United States of America are mentioned twice as well since it is only a matter of fact that there are two discontiguous boundary parts bordering to one and the same (federal) state, quite similar to the case of Armenia being bordered by Azerbaijan (at least) twice.
I am aware of tensions around the exact place of the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but I can see no reason why the factual border situation should not be accurately mentioned. I hold no stakes in the situation. Redav ( talk) 02:01, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
My edit(s) did not involve changing or adding content in the article, just rearranging. I wonder how that would spark discussion regarding content.
Remains the placement. I have no preponderant objections against keeping the (apparently carefully balancedly formulated) description of the topographical information in the introduction. That would answer your desire to leave the lead as it is.
To minimize on text: call by "L" the current sentence in the introduction: "Located in [...] to the south.", and call by "M" the sentence in the geography section: "Armenia is bordered [...] and west by Turkey."
I still argue that at least the same amount information as in L in the introduction be also placed in the dedicated section; more precisely: an exact copy of L in the geography section would be acceptable to me. My motivation for this: accessibility / "findability", as discussed above.
I also argue that any relatively independent text unit like the first paragraph in the geography section should not reasonably leave room for misinterpretation or, worse, misinformation. The current formulation there in M leaves out that at its (south)western side Armenia is bordered by what is - at least according to UN maps - part of Azerbaijan. That could easily be interpreted as ignoring or denying that Azerbaijan has a part of its country lying there. If there would be fuel for heated debate, that could certainly be part of it, I think.
The above can then be weighed against the argument (Archives908's as much as mine) for conciseness. Were I to weigh and decide, taking into account the new (to me) argument about not needlessly fuelling heated debate, I would replace M in its entirety by L.
Or ... at the very least: delete M from the geography section as well as precisely also in that geography dedicated section (says its title) a) refer back to (L in) the introduction and/or b) forward to the article "Geography of Armenia" with a sufficient and valid description there. Now, b) is already in place.
According to my reasoning, then, the current choice would reduce to:
I would hate to see that clear, factual, complete, and findable descriptions of state boundaries, qualified by "according to UN maps" and a mention of the circumstance that a considerable group of people disagree with the view in the UN's maps if so desired, would lose it from (fear of) edit warring.
I had not thought or provided input about the continent issue yet, and I do not think I see cause for that just now. Redav ( talk) 20:33, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
Someone replaced it with the LGBTQ flag. Please change immediately. R. J. Dockery ( talk) 16:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Both Armenia and Azerbaijan are basically located in South Caucasus with Armenia more closer to the west than Azerbaijan but yet it's mentioned that Azerbaijan is between East Europe and West Asia but not for Armenia ?
Also Armenia is a member of council of Europe, participate in the Euro football cup, European games and Eurovision. Why are they mentioned only as west Asia if they are not Europe ? I was told them by most people that they are a European country too. Vamlos ( talk) 23:28, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Regardless of Armenia's geopolitical alignment, which I will make comment below under the geopolitical orientation thread, it geographically speaking is completely in West Asia. So the geography of it being identified as a country in Western Asia should remain.
Azerbaijan is a transcontinental country, like Turkey , Kazakhstan , and Georgia with parts of each country in Asia and Europe - so that is why they are mentioned geographically in both continents. Armenia is not a transcontinental country. It is country in West Asia not Europe.
The consensus under the Europe article, with numerous citations, is that Europe stops at the Ural mountains and Ural river in terms of its border with central Asia and the greater Caucasus in terms of its border with West Asia .
Let's not conflate geopolitics with geography. Armenia participating in Eurovision doesn't change its geography. Even Morocco has participated in Eurovision... -- QeeGeeBee ( talk) 12:58, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
The recent edits regarding Armenia's geography made me question the accuracy of the wording in the lead. Knowing very well that geographically Armenia is situated in Western Asia, it made me wonder, Armenia is also geopolitically "at the crossroads" of Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Yet, why is this not included anywhere in the article? For starters, the Caucasus region as a whole- is in fact on the "crossroads" of Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Under the United Nations Regional Groups, Armenia is listed as "Eastern European". Meanwhile, Eurovoc the official thesaurus maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union classifies Armenia as belonging to Eastern Europe. Not to mention, Armenia is also included in the Europe and Eastern Europe articles as well as List of European countries by area and List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe, among dozens of other "Euro-related" articles including, Economy of Europe, Regions of Europe, Languages of Europe, Politics of Europe, Flags of Europe etc... in which Armenia is mentioned. In these articles, there are footnotes indicating that while geographically Armenia is in Western Asia, Armenia is geopolitically/culturally aligned more so with Europe. That should be reflected here, even only for consistency's sake. There should be no double standard. This can also be cemented in Armenia's membership in the Council of Europe; of which the founding treaty clearly stipulates that in order for a county to accede, they must be 'European'. Armenia would, henceforth, not have been granted full membership in the Council if it wasn't considered 'European' to a degree. In addition, Armenia has membership in other European institutions in which 'being European' is mandatory criteria (ie, European Cultural Convention, European Higher Education Area, European Olympic Committees, European Court of Human Rights, etc...). Certain reliable media outlets such as the BBC also classify Armenia as part of Eastern Europe. [4] Politically speaking, Armenia is part of the EU's Eastern Partnership and Euronest Parliamentary Assembly and has ratified a new Armenia-EU Comprehensive and Enhanced Partnership Agreement aligning Armenia ever more closely (politically and economically) to Europe and the EU. There are also several political parties and politicians in Armenia who vehemently support Armenia's European integration and/or Armenia's potential bid for EU membership (see: Potential enlargement of the European Union) and some who see Armenia's future with Europe, not Asia. In return, several prominent EU politicians (including Donald Tusk) have included Armenia as belonging to the 'European family of states' and belonging to a ' Greater Europe'. [5] Further, in 2002, the European Parliament noted that both Armenia (and neighboring Georgia) may enter the EU in the future providing that they meet all necessary criteria. [6] And we all know, that EU membership is only open to states considered 'European'. Even Cyprus, which like Armenia is also in Western Asia, joined because it has been deemed 'European' to a degree. My point here is that Armenia (to an extent) is 'European', and this should be reflected in the article in some capacity, whatever that may be. There is no valid reason to outright exclude Armenia from being geopolitically included as part of Europe. The current wording works well (and I'm not saying that anything should be removed, as per past consensuses). But, this article can definitely be improved to include the fact that Armenia is truly 'at crossroads'. Including this reality will better reflect Armenia's 21st Century geopolitical alignment, as seen above. It would be negligent to turn a 'blind eye' to this. Looking forward to some feedback! Regards, Archives908 ( talk) 04:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Again geographically Armenia is completely in West Asia. So to get back to the topic at hand the geopolitical orientation of Armenia, objectively speaking, is not solely European. The lead should not be changed in the ways mentioned above, as the leads of even other geopolitically ambiguous countries only mention geography.
The United Nations Regional Group does include Armenia with Eastern Europe - this is because of Armenia's post-soviet ties. They also group Israel and Turkey in western Europe's regional group. Yet both Israel and Turkey, two countries with geopolitical ties to Europe, only list geography in the lead of each respective article and do not get into the ambiguities of their geopolitical ties.
Also noteworthy is that the United Nations member states and statistics for Armenia lists it as West Asian nation, not a Eastern Europe nation.
Eurovoc does list Armenia as Central/Eastern Europe, but they also list Turkey and Cyprus as Southern Europe. As aforementioned there is not geopolitical speculation on the lead of Turkeys article page - instead it just just states its geography. Likewise Cyprus also just lists geography on its lead and not speculative geopolitical orientations.
I want to add that The World Factbook produced by the Central Intelligence Agency, which is used in academia, news, etc - lists Armenia in the Middle East and not Europe. Also in the Greater Middle East article Armenia is included and mentioned for "common socio-cultural connections". So if we indeed are going to change the lead or subsequent paragraphs in an objective way reflecting the complex geopolitics of Armenia then its fair to say you'd also need to mention Armenia's relationship geopolitically with the Middle East.
Armenia is one of 6 observer states to the Arab League. Its observation status is due to the interconnection of the Armenian diaspora living in the Arab world. Major portions of historical Armenia overlaps with the contemporary geopolitical area of the Middle East and shows the aforementioned unique relationship that Armenia has geopolitically and historically linked to the Middle East and by being again apart of the Greater Middle East. This relationship is ongoing and speaks to many geopolitical and socio-cultural situations relevant to Armenia like, United Armenia which seeks to reclaim parts of the Middle East that were once historic Armenia.
Armenia geographically shares a border with two Middle Eastern nations, Turkey and Iran. With Iran their relationship geopolitically being quite good - with many Armenians living in Iran and the Armenia-Iran border border relations being a positive one. I want to mention that Armenia is listed with Greater Iran- again this is another of the numerous Middle Eastern geopolitical and cultural connections that dates back to Sasanian Armenia and Iranian Armenia (1502-1828). Armenia historically speaking, since Urartu has had deep geopolitical ties to the Middle East. Pre Christian ancient Armenia incorporated zoroastrianism and Mesopotamian mythology with their native faith. To this day mythological creatures like the Dev are shared in stories like Shahnameh.
The Europe article does later mention Armenia - but clearly in the 1st picture does not have Armenia highlighted, or Turkey, or Cyprus, or Israel - though all have geopolitical ties to Europe. I want to mention that the Asia article does have modern Armenia highlighted and later lists Armenia.
Also for the sake of consistency - Armenia is in the List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia, Economy of Asia, Geography of Asia, Languages of Asia, Flags of Asia, etc… the list goes on of Asian, West Asian, and Middle eastern articles Armenia is mentioned in and has historically and culturally engaged with or overlapped. I repeat, its not exclusively European geopolitically.
The Council of Europe was mentioned, this council also includes Turkey, a country in the Middle East. Kazakhstan was also in the process of trying to join - and is currently on the path to join after improving human rights concerns. Kazakhstan is arguably a very Central Asian country - both culturally and politically. Getting into the council doesn't make you exclusively geopolitically European - it just adds to the complexity of a country's geopolitical standing.
I want to mention that in the Armenia article its mentioned in the forth paragraph in that its a member of the council of Europe. Its not as if there's a total neglect of Armenia's geopolitics. If anything I think the numerous Asian and Middle Eastern connections need more representation in the first sections subsequent paragraphs. There should be no double standard, as was stated above and we must stay neutral.
I want to add that determining how culturally European Armenia is a subjective one. As Armenia culturally has consistently shown to be complex with elements of the Middle East, West Asia, the Caucasuses, and Europe.
For example under Middle Eastern Cuisine Armenian cuisine is listed. Cuisine is one of the biggest parts of any culture. Armenian Cuisine historically is quite west asian with main stay dishes like dolma, listed under its article as its place of origin in the Middle East. Lahmacun, also known as Armenia pizza - with its origin listed as the Middle East. Börek has Ottoman origins according to its article page, its another very common Armenian dish. Armenian coffee, listed under Turkish coffee with its origins according to the article from Yemen. Manti another very important Armenian dish has its roots in Central Asia and East Asia. I could name many more examples, clearing showing that Armenian Cuisine wise is not "Culturally European" - instead its culturally multifaceted and reflects its unique history.
For another example Armenians living in Armenia and abroad are overwhelming apart of the Armenian Apostolic Church - which is apart of the Oriental Orthodox Churches and theologically had much more in common with other Miaphysitism doctrine churches as opposed to European Christian doctrine. You can see on the Oriental Orthodoxy by country article the unique worldwide distribution - in West Asia, Africa, South Asia - of churches who rejected the council of chalcedon. Coptic Christians, Syriac Christians, Ethiopian Christians are all majority adherents of oriental orthodox religious doctrine. Religion is a huge part of Armenia culturally and aligns more with Armenia's west asian cultural ties as the first Christian state historically - with West Asia being the original birth place of Christianity.
I can name many more cultural connections outside Europe. Again Armenia isn't solely European culturally.
Armenia is regional Member of the Asian Development Bank, a regional bank development started in Japan - again showing Armenia's geopolitical complexity with Asia. It's also a prospective member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. Economically after Russia, Armenia's main export partner is Iran under the Economy of Armenia article - any economy is a geopolitical sphere and Armenia's is again clearly diverse.
Armenia is in numerous geopolitically complex organizations including the Federation of Euro-Asian Stock Exchanges, [Euroasian Union]], Eurasian Customs Union, Eurasian Development Bank.
Someone had mentioned organizations like the European Olympic Committees - this organization also has Middle Eastern countries like Israel and Turkey. The previously mentioned European Cultural Convention has as a member Kazakhstan, Cyprus, and Turkey - again this just showcases unique geopolitical complexities. I could keep going. Eurovision has had Morocco participate, does that make Morocco culturally European? No. Again, to be neutral we need to mention every caveat.
Armenia has geopolitical complexity in terms of Europe, the Middle East, West Asia, and Central Asia. Objectively stating Armenia is geopolitically and culturally European flattens its reality - that I hopefully backed up with numerous agreed upon articles.
I disagree with changing the lead in the way suggested. I also again want to mention that in the of article of Cyprus the lead does not get into speculative geopolitics - just geography and then later paragraphs talk of its geopolitical ties. Cyprus isn't just a potential member of the EU, they are in the EU. Also again Kazakhstan has the potential to be member of the EU, that does not make the country politically and culturally European. EU ascension does not equate to a exclusive European geopolitical reality.
Armenia could use more geopolitical context in later paragraphs after the header, but these potential additions should show its complex multi continental, multi regional, and multi geopolitical spheres of influence.
Neglecting every thing I mentioned above would also be turning a blind eye and in some capacity needs to be reflected. Armenia is at a crossroads of numerous spheres, historically, culturally, geopolitically and so on and should be stated in some capacity. -- QeeGeeBee ( talk) 17:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus region of Western Asia, however, it is generally considered geopolitically European. As it aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus region of Western Asia, however, it is generally considered geopolitically European. As it aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. While Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus, it is generally considered geopolitically European. Since Armenia aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. While Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus, it is generally considered geopolitically European. Since Armenia aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Came here to find out about the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war but this doesn't appear to be linked despite recent events. Any reason for this? Sephiroth storm ( talk) 23:31, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The map under "Ethnic groups" should be edited, as it's outdated. RobinVictor ( talk) 18:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
The only part of the ‘disputed lands’ (so to speak) that border Armenia and which are still not administered by Azerbaijan is the Lachin corridor. This area is not under the control of the ‘de facto’ ‘Republic of Artzakh’. Rather, the Lachin corridor is under the control of a Russian peacekeeping force. This is provided for in art. 6 of the Nov 2020 Trilateral Agreement between Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia.
Accordingly, Armenia no longer borders the ‘Republic of Artsakh’. None of the land of Armenia borders areas under the control of the ‘Republic of Artsakh’. I have updated the description of the countries that border Armenia in the lede to take this into account. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 14:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Steverci, can you avoid POV-pushing and engage in denialism? This is not exclusively about Caucasus Edition, which the article is authored by an Armenian journalist. If you have a problem with Caucasus Edition, head over to the noticeboard. I've also shown New York Times and RFE/RL as sources. Even if you had a problem with some kind of Armenian-protests, you could've moved the information to a different sentence, instead of completely removing it. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Peaceful protests in Armenia supporting the Karabakh Armenians were met with anti-Armenian pogroms in Azerbaijan, such as the one in Sumgait, which was followed by anti-Azerbaijani violence in Armenia.While here, you say
claiming widespread "anti-Azerbaijani violence" is WP:OR, as is claiming any connection to protests in Armenia.The text doesn't include the word "widespread" and relates it to Sumgait, not the protests. Just to be sure, have you actually read the paragraph, or all of this is just a misunderstanding? --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
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Please move the presidents surname to Sarksyan in the info box. The letter գ is usually pronounced as [kʰ] -- if it is not the initial letter -- in Eastern Armenian, too. Rather an exception is f.e. Գագիկ ([gɯ'gik]) where it is in fact prounounces as [g] in both cases. By the way, it is the same with դ (pay attention to the pronunciations of օդ, կարդալ) and բ (երբ, շաբաթ). 2. Սարգսյան ([sɯɹkʰəs'jan]) derives from Սարգիս, therefore it is the best to write it in English with i. Compare f.e. մսի (the genitive case of միս). The ի falls out but [ə] jumps in instead of it -- note that is not reflected by the Armenian diction. Armen Sarksyan has already changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.95.54 ( talk) 15:50, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
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Soviet union general ( talk) 16:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
can I edit this article please
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CAN I EDIT THIS PLEASE, I WILL NOT DO ANYTHING BAD I SWEAR JUST PLEASE I WILL NOT MESS IT UP PEASEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Soviet union general ( talk) 01:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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CAN I EDIT?????????? Soviet union general ( talk) 01:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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Soviet union general ( talk) 01:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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Please add the Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) in the establishment section. İt was the empire of tigranes the great. And also fix the presidents name back to sarkissian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.108.138.146 ( talk) 14:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
However, the most easily identifiable ancestors of the later Armenian nation are the Urartians.
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Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 |
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Armenia does not have a border with russia and georgia, only a border with georgia. This information is incorrect 205.209.91.171 ( talk) 23:19, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should the lead say that Armenia is:
or...
Long overdue RfC. I believe there has been a consensus in the past, but it appears that a few users believe that the WP:CONSENSUSCANCHANGE. Hence why we need an RfC. Étienne Dolet ( talk) Relisted by Winged Blades Godric at 14:14, 14 March 2017 (UTC) .Initiated on 23:00, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
References
Republic of Armenia is situated in south-western part of Asia. The country occupies the north-eastern part of Armenian plateau – between Caucasus and Nearest Asia
After a century of newspeak applied to the geography and history of Armenia, all options are wrong. Terms that were once truthful have had their correct meaning taken away from them, making them now unusable. This is made worse by having an article that tries to cover a small and recently-formed modern country in the Southern Caucasus as well as a much larger geographical and historical Armenia whose history extends back some 2500 years. I think neither Western Asia or Eastern Europe should be in the lede. Southern Caucasus would be OK as long as it is made clear that it applies only to the territory of the modern republic. Tiptoethrutheminefield ( talk) 16:48, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Bad maps aside, only one side seems to be putting forth any kind of argument here. Why should the lead say neither or both? The geography seems pretty straightforward (Armenia being well to the south of the drainage divide), and the government of Armenia and the United Nations seem like pretty trustworthy authorities. - 165.234.252.11 ( talk) 20:43, 24 February 2017 (UTC)
The criterion of a discrete landmass is completely disregarded if the continuous landmass of Eurasia is classified as two separate continents: Europe and Asia. Physiographically, Europe and South Asia are peninsulas of the Eurasian landmass. However, Europe is widely considered a continent with its comparatively large land area of 10,180,000 square kilometres (3,930,000 sq mi), while South Asia, with less than half that area, is considered a subcontinent. The alternative view—in geology and geography—that Eurasia is a single continent results in a six-continent view of the world. Some view separation of Eurasia into Europe and Asia as a residue of Eurocentrism: "In physical, cultural and historical diversity, China and India are comparable to the entire European landmass, not to a single European country.[1].-- g. balaxaZe ★ 18:17, 15 March 2017 (UTC)
the images on the right include the code of arms of soviet Armenia can someone please replace or include the code of the arms of the Republic of Armenia — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.106.217.133 ( talk) 05:20, 22 June 2017 (UTC)
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Armenia is the Middle East and this is why: Armenia is in West Asia at the bottom of the Caucasus in the Middle East. Armenia has many cultural relations with various ME countries. For example,
-Armenian food is practically identical to Arab and Turkish food (especially the Levantine Arab Countries).
-There have been multiple studies done that Armenians, Iranians, Greeks, Levantines, and Turks share many of each others DNA. I even took a DNA test think I was full Armenian and instead I got various Arab countries and Greece/Turkey.
-Persian and Armenian are in the same language group: Into-European. It is a fact that Armenian is most closely related to Greek and Persian and Arabs, Persians, and Armenian all share and borrow many words from each other.
-Traditional Armenian music is very similar to Persian traditional music
-Traditional Armenian garments are also similar to Persian and Levantine traditional garments and certain parts of Turkey
-Armenia is in West Asia (Middle East is technically a region in West Asia). Europe ends in Istanbul to the west and a very tip of the country Georgia. Only about 1/3–1/4 of Georgia if that, is in Europe.
-People may confuse Armenia for European only because of religion but by that logic part of Cyprus and Israel shouldn’t be Middle East. The 3 major Abrahamic religions came from the Middle East. If you think because of religion, well I can prove you wrong right now. The Coptic, Syriac, Armenian and Ethopian orthodox churches are all in communion with each other. All these are ORIENTAL while “European” Christianity isn’t.
-Heck at one point, Armenia was half of Turkey and the northern tip of Iran and Azerbaijan and at one point controlled all of the Levant (Levant is Lebanon, Syria, Palestine, Jordan, Israel)
-Many loanwords: On average, there are more Turkish terms in spoken Armenian than Armenian in Turkish, and many many more that came from Persian into both Armenian and Turkish. At on, it was considered under the Iranian language group due to so many words and grammar being shared, but later was changed to an isolated group.
-Has Russian influence and Russian is considered second language but that doesn't make it less Middle Eastern. Lebanon was once controlled by France and French is spoken as second language, but doesn't take away ME origin. Lebanon is roughly about 50/50 Christian/Muslim and at one point was 70/30 Christian/Muslim. Christianity or religion doesn't dictate geography.
-Many maps don't always include Armenia in the ME purely for the reason it is not involved in politics like other countries are. They tend to stay away.
I would just like to edit the parts to prove its Middle Eastern :-) N31014 ( talk) 03:01, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
There seems to be an issue with the Open Street Map link in the General Information section. It was forcing the entire page to be one big link to another site. I've commented it out for the time being, so that the rest of the page works. It's osmrelation-inline|364066 Tastyniall ( talk) 09:06, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
"Human rights in Armenia tend to be better than those in most former Soviet republics" - that may be true, but "and have drawn closer to acceptable standards, especially economically" means nothing. Economics and human rights are entirely different matters. 203.80.61.102 ( talk) 22:43, 14 November 2017 (UTC)
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The word "Multiparty" is not hyphenated, just like all the other words that begin with "multi": multiband, multicolored, multidisciplinary, multilane, multilingual, multiman, multinational, multiprocessor, multiracial, multistate, multiverse, multiword, multiyear,... 47.215.180.7 ( talk) 09:10, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
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Prime Minister of Armenia is Nikol Pashinyan. Wikipedia has it posted incorrectly. Please fix.
Thank you for your support in providing free information to help educate everybody in all matters.
Regards.. 2600:6C50:6C7F:FF49:DC57:BEF0:9FB4:CA03 ( talk) 02:15, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Armenia is a Parliamentary republic, starting today. Make changes in the article. 217.76.1.22 ( talk) 11:10, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes, please do this. Especially the Government and Politics section makes no sense anymore. Rotbandito 20:03, 4 June 2018 (UTC)
Its really shameful that the image of the Sun god temple text starts with "The pagan Garni Temple" . That's absurdity. High time to get rid of views like Pagans, heretics etc. These fundamentalism is so outdated that it takes away the beauty of what the Garni Temple represents. So let's call it the Sun Temple of Garni. Stop the nonsense words like Pagan etc. Besanebehumane ( talk) 09:52, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
I'm aware that Armenian nationalism tends to stress how "indigenous" Armenians are -- indeed, Armenians are relatively indigenous to their lands compared to their Eastern, Western and Southern neighbors, whatever nationalist bs comes out of Turkey on this issue. The current view of modern scholarship is that no Indo-European people is really "autochtonous" (culturally/linguistically at least) since the two candidate Urheimats (the Kurgan and Anatolia) both saw linguistic and cultural replacement. Although such views that simply equate Urartu with Armenia, assert the unpopular Armenian IE hypothesis, and project this indigenous Armenian history much further back even to times like 2000 or 3000 BCE may be popular in Armenia , among the diaspora, and among some certain scholars who mainly study Armenia, they really are not popular outside of these groups. We cannot have this in the infobox, it is not NPOV. Here is a sampling of the more standard global viewpoint on the issue, which posits that although many Armenians descend from people who lived in Urartian times and there are many ways they are bona fide culturally heirs to Urartu, Armenia does not equal Urartu, and furthermore, Urartians were not ethnically Armenian and spoke a language that was certainly not even Indo-European, while Armenians likely played a role in the destruction of their state. If anything, the general view on Urartian is that if it has relatives, they are in the Northeast Caucasus (Chechen, Lezgin, etc), a view held by various famous Georgian linguists, as well as Diakonov, Starostin, etc.
Here is but a small sample of the international scholarship on the issue:
Levon Abrahamian, 1998 [ [2]]: This path to national identity transforms traces of distinctions between aliens and the imagined ethnic community in the deep past into a story of how such ali- ens actually formed a root of the primary reference-community. Thus, aliens present at the ethnic ìorigin timeî are symbolically transformed into ancestors. The aliens in the case of the Armenians are the Urartians, a Hurrian-speaking people who formed the state Urartu on the historical and present-day territory of Armenia in the period running roughly from 900 to 600 BC. Thus, one can say that the Armenian model of national-identity "fights" for the Armenian identity of the Urartians in order to stake a claim for the essen- tial "Armenianness" of regions once dominated by the Urartians. The symbolic construction of ancient ìUrartiansî as Armenians in contemporary Armenian national discourse can itself be explained in relation to gaps in the linguistic theories and empirical evidence used by the linguists and historians who, as I argued above, have played such a prominent role in formulating this discourse in the last decade. Though the already mentioned hypothesis of the Near Eastern motherland of the Indo- Europeans ìconfirmedî the ancient roots of the Armenians in their territory, the Hurrian speaking Urartians and their high culture formed a gap in the continuity of Armenian ìdeepî history. Thus, by identifying Urartu with Armenia, Armenian nationalists could trace the Armenian genealogical tree back to the most ancient times without any breaks in continuity. Little wonder, then, that Souren Aivazian, a champion of the idea of the Urar- tiansí Armenian origin, ìreadsî Urartian cuneiforms as written in proto-Armenian (Ai- vazian 1986: 30-31).
George Anchabadze : Urartu was an ancient state in the Caucasus... The native tongue of the ethnic kernel of this state apparently was close to the Vainakh-Daghestani linguistic group... Later, after the fall of Urartu, the ancient Armenian tribes gradually began to spread on the territory of Southern Transcaucasia, though the process of formation of the independent Armenian State protracted for the reason that the country was subject to the rule of the Persian, as well as Greek and Macedonian conquerors. It was only in 189 B.C. when the kingdom of Great Armenia came into being. The state reached the peak of its power in the first half of the 1st century B.C., when the Armenian Kingdom comprised a vast territory from the Caspian Sea to the Mediterranean.
Here is Diakonoff on Hurro-Urartian influences on Armenian -- note, influences. Not descent. [ [3]]. Urartian forms a substratum that influenced Armenian in the sort of way that Coptic would influence Egyptian Arabic [[ https://www.jstor.org/stable/602722?casa_token=kZBOhZfkyncAAAAA:jUHr3b79cPhw67xn4sPIMaAW13SWJM_w5tJNJKrqvuEIyJH7CxQpTa_h5Tk9JdodG9FiLIfKpsJibcMQM-Fol7k8xOtgiNhEgKMjG45f4ak4uHLe&seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents ]]. Here for more info on Armenian's proposed "Alarodian" (i.e. related to Chechen, Lezgin, Avar etc) substratum via Urartian loans (not inherited) [ [4]].
It's quite possible, and posited by many people, that Armenians were present in Urartu, ruled over by a foreign people as a minority or even a majority. However, this does not make Urartu an "Armenian state", much less a factor in the formation of the modern Republic of Armenia.-- Calthinus ( talk) 06:11, 7 September 2018 (UTC)
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Please correct the punctuation of GDP_PPP and GDP_nominal in the infobox (decimal point instead of comma, which is thousand's separator). GDP_PPP = $28,282 billion has to be $28.282 billion, while GDP_nominal = $11,548 billion should be $11.548 billion. Axel Amsterdam ( talk) 13:17, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
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Thanks for fixing the other decimal separators. Please revert the last change to GDP_nominal_per_capita. It should be in the thousand's range, so $3,861 was correct and not $3.861. Axel Amsterdam ( talk) 13:47, 14 September 2018 (UTC)
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Armenia's size is NOT 29.743 km2 BUT 29,743 km2 2A02:AB88:638B:5E80:4D5D:68B3:729D:9AB1 ( talk) 07:33, 23 September 2018 (UTC)
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In the History section, under the Antiquity sub-section-- tiny typo: around 2107 BC Hayk foughy against Belus should be fought Semir.amis ( talk) 21:59, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
Several deliberate attempts with edit warring have been made to remove content and sources from Establishment history infobox section. Restored the removed content Hayordi ( talk) 18:36, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
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Change the name of president, you’ve got wrong guy as otesident 2600:6C50:80:5B71:5D82:C58E:71AA:D0FA ( talk) 23:15, 20 January 2019 (UTC)
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What about the 11-30 thousand who fought in World War II against the Soviets? And why no mention of Drastamat Kanayan? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1002:B019:CEC7:110F:2427:65C5:283A ( talk) 03:14, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
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The reference to Lake Van in the Eymology section does not have a link to Lake Van's wikipedia page: /info/en/?search=Lake_Van Bayazkus ( talk) 03:35, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Somebody has replaced the Armenian flag as the Turkish flag. This needs to be fixed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:EF90:9F20:6945:E4C4:79A5:D678 ( talk) 20:18, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
As you may know, recent hostilities have broken out between the Republic of Armenia and Republic of Azerbaijan over the disputed region of Nagorno-Karabakh (Azeri: Qarabag, Armenian: Artsakh). While skirmishes have been common since the cessation of hostilities in 1994, a second war seems almost certain after Armenian PM Nikol Pashayan mobilized the army and declared martial law in response to Azeri shelling of civilian buildings. This has caused a wave of vandalism, with a recent editor replacing the flag of Armenia with the flag of the Republic of Turkey, an Azeri ally (due to them both being of the Turkic race). I propose that the articles of Azerbaijan, Armenia, and Turkey be subject to an extended-confirmed protection lock until hostilities cease. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dsobol0513 ( talk • contribs) 20:20, 27 September 2020 (UTC) Dsobol0513 ( talk) 20:44, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
I agree. R. J. Dockery ( talk) 16:58, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Concerning Archives908's revert of an edit in the article on Armenia concerning a more accurate description of what it borders on and where, the explanation given with it reads "rvt, not necessary and redundant, already mentioned in the lede".
While there is indeed mention of it in the lead, I imagine that people who want to read about the geography almost immediately click on the title "Geography" (that is what I did).
If there is a place in an article where the more/most detailed messages go, I prefer they go in the designated sections. The less detailed description could then go in the lead.
So I argue for a factual and accurate description there, and for a re-instatement of my previous edit (or for another edit one to the same effect).
This is, by the way, similar to e.g. the geography description in the article for Canada, where the United States of America are mentioned twice as well since it is only a matter of fact that there are two discontiguous boundary parts bordering to one and the same (federal) state, quite similar to the case of Armenia being bordered by Azerbaijan (at least) twice.
I am aware of tensions around the exact place of the border between Armenia and Azerbaijan, but I can see no reason why the factual border situation should not be accurately mentioned. I hold no stakes in the situation. Redav ( talk) 02:01, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
My edit(s) did not involve changing or adding content in the article, just rearranging. I wonder how that would spark discussion regarding content.
Remains the placement. I have no preponderant objections against keeping the (apparently carefully balancedly formulated) description of the topographical information in the introduction. That would answer your desire to leave the lead as it is.
To minimize on text: call by "L" the current sentence in the introduction: "Located in [...] to the south.", and call by "M" the sentence in the geography section: "Armenia is bordered [...] and west by Turkey."
I still argue that at least the same amount information as in L in the introduction be also placed in the dedicated section; more precisely: an exact copy of L in the geography section would be acceptable to me. My motivation for this: accessibility / "findability", as discussed above.
I also argue that any relatively independent text unit like the first paragraph in the geography section should not reasonably leave room for misinterpretation or, worse, misinformation. The current formulation there in M leaves out that at its (south)western side Armenia is bordered by what is - at least according to UN maps - part of Azerbaijan. That could easily be interpreted as ignoring or denying that Azerbaijan has a part of its country lying there. If there would be fuel for heated debate, that could certainly be part of it, I think.
The above can then be weighed against the argument (Archives908's as much as mine) for conciseness. Were I to weigh and decide, taking into account the new (to me) argument about not needlessly fuelling heated debate, I would replace M in its entirety by L.
Or ... at the very least: delete M from the geography section as well as precisely also in that geography dedicated section (says its title) a) refer back to (L in) the introduction and/or b) forward to the article "Geography of Armenia" with a sufficient and valid description there. Now, b) is already in place.
According to my reasoning, then, the current choice would reduce to:
I would hate to see that clear, factual, complete, and findable descriptions of state boundaries, qualified by "according to UN maps" and a mention of the circumstance that a considerable group of people disagree with the view in the UN's maps if so desired, would lose it from (fear of) edit warring.
I had not thought or provided input about the continent issue yet, and I do not think I see cause for that just now. Redav ( talk) 20:33, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
Someone replaced it with the LGBTQ flag. Please change immediately. R. J. Dockery ( talk) 16:56, 1 October 2020 (UTC)
Both Armenia and Azerbaijan are basically located in South Caucasus with Armenia more closer to the west than Azerbaijan but yet it's mentioned that Azerbaijan is between East Europe and West Asia but not for Armenia ?
Also Armenia is a member of council of Europe, participate in the Euro football cup, European games and Eurovision. Why are they mentioned only as west Asia if they are not Europe ? I was told them by most people that they are a European country too. Vamlos ( talk) 23:28, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
Regardless of Armenia's geopolitical alignment, which I will make comment below under the geopolitical orientation thread, it geographically speaking is completely in West Asia. So the geography of it being identified as a country in Western Asia should remain.
Azerbaijan is a transcontinental country, like Turkey , Kazakhstan , and Georgia with parts of each country in Asia and Europe - so that is why they are mentioned geographically in both continents. Armenia is not a transcontinental country. It is country in West Asia not Europe.
The consensus under the Europe article, with numerous citations, is that Europe stops at the Ural mountains and Ural river in terms of its border with central Asia and the greater Caucasus in terms of its border with West Asia .
Let's not conflate geopolitics with geography. Armenia participating in Eurovision doesn't change its geography. Even Morocco has participated in Eurovision... -- QeeGeeBee ( talk) 12:58, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
The recent edits regarding Armenia's geography made me question the accuracy of the wording in the lead. Knowing very well that geographically Armenia is situated in Western Asia, it made me wonder, Armenia is also geopolitically "at the crossroads" of Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Yet, why is this not included anywhere in the article? For starters, the Caucasus region as a whole- is in fact on the "crossroads" of Eastern Europe and Western Asia. Under the United Nations Regional Groups, Armenia is listed as "Eastern European". Meanwhile, Eurovoc the official thesaurus maintained by the Publications Office of the European Union classifies Armenia as belonging to Eastern Europe. Not to mention, Armenia is also included in the Europe and Eastern Europe articles as well as List of European countries by area and List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe, among dozens of other "Euro-related" articles including, Economy of Europe, Regions of Europe, Languages of Europe, Politics of Europe, Flags of Europe etc... in which Armenia is mentioned. In these articles, there are footnotes indicating that while geographically Armenia is in Western Asia, Armenia is geopolitically/culturally aligned more so with Europe. That should be reflected here, even only for consistency's sake. There should be no double standard. This can also be cemented in Armenia's membership in the Council of Europe; of which the founding treaty clearly stipulates that in order for a county to accede, they must be 'European'. Armenia would, henceforth, not have been granted full membership in the Council if it wasn't considered 'European' to a degree. In addition, Armenia has membership in other European institutions in which 'being European' is mandatory criteria (ie, European Cultural Convention, European Higher Education Area, European Olympic Committees, European Court of Human Rights, etc...). Certain reliable media outlets such as the BBC also classify Armenia as part of Eastern Europe. [4] Politically speaking, Armenia is part of the EU's Eastern Partnership and Euronest Parliamentary Assembly and has ratified a new Armenia-EU Comprehensive and Enhanced Partnership Agreement aligning Armenia ever more closely (politically and economically) to Europe and the EU. There are also several political parties and politicians in Armenia who vehemently support Armenia's European integration and/or Armenia's potential bid for EU membership (see: Potential enlargement of the European Union) and some who see Armenia's future with Europe, not Asia. In return, several prominent EU politicians (including Donald Tusk) have included Armenia as belonging to the 'European family of states' and belonging to a ' Greater Europe'. [5] Further, in 2002, the European Parliament noted that both Armenia (and neighboring Georgia) may enter the EU in the future providing that they meet all necessary criteria. [6] And we all know, that EU membership is only open to states considered 'European'. Even Cyprus, which like Armenia is also in Western Asia, joined because it has been deemed 'European' to a degree. My point here is that Armenia (to an extent) is 'European', and this should be reflected in the article in some capacity, whatever that may be. There is no valid reason to outright exclude Armenia from being geopolitically included as part of Europe. The current wording works well (and I'm not saying that anything should be removed, as per past consensuses). But, this article can definitely be improved to include the fact that Armenia is truly 'at crossroads'. Including this reality will better reflect Armenia's 21st Century geopolitical alignment, as seen above. It would be negligent to turn a 'blind eye' to this. Looking forward to some feedback! Regards, Archives908 ( talk) 04:49, 13 October 2020 (UTC)
Again geographically Armenia is completely in West Asia. So to get back to the topic at hand the geopolitical orientation of Armenia, objectively speaking, is not solely European. The lead should not be changed in the ways mentioned above, as the leads of even other geopolitically ambiguous countries only mention geography.
The United Nations Regional Group does include Armenia with Eastern Europe - this is because of Armenia's post-soviet ties. They also group Israel and Turkey in western Europe's regional group. Yet both Israel and Turkey, two countries with geopolitical ties to Europe, only list geography in the lead of each respective article and do not get into the ambiguities of their geopolitical ties.
Also noteworthy is that the United Nations member states and statistics for Armenia lists it as West Asian nation, not a Eastern Europe nation.
Eurovoc does list Armenia as Central/Eastern Europe, but they also list Turkey and Cyprus as Southern Europe. As aforementioned there is not geopolitical speculation on the lead of Turkeys article page - instead it just just states its geography. Likewise Cyprus also just lists geography on its lead and not speculative geopolitical orientations.
I want to add that The World Factbook produced by the Central Intelligence Agency, which is used in academia, news, etc - lists Armenia in the Middle East and not Europe. Also in the Greater Middle East article Armenia is included and mentioned for "common socio-cultural connections". So if we indeed are going to change the lead or subsequent paragraphs in an objective way reflecting the complex geopolitics of Armenia then its fair to say you'd also need to mention Armenia's relationship geopolitically with the Middle East.
Armenia is one of 6 observer states to the Arab League. Its observation status is due to the interconnection of the Armenian diaspora living in the Arab world. Major portions of historical Armenia overlaps with the contemporary geopolitical area of the Middle East and shows the aforementioned unique relationship that Armenia has geopolitically and historically linked to the Middle East and by being again apart of the Greater Middle East. This relationship is ongoing and speaks to many geopolitical and socio-cultural situations relevant to Armenia like, United Armenia which seeks to reclaim parts of the Middle East that were once historic Armenia.
Armenia geographically shares a border with two Middle Eastern nations, Turkey and Iran. With Iran their relationship geopolitically being quite good - with many Armenians living in Iran and the Armenia-Iran border border relations being a positive one. I want to mention that Armenia is listed with Greater Iran- again this is another of the numerous Middle Eastern geopolitical and cultural connections that dates back to Sasanian Armenia and Iranian Armenia (1502-1828). Armenia historically speaking, since Urartu has had deep geopolitical ties to the Middle East. Pre Christian ancient Armenia incorporated zoroastrianism and Mesopotamian mythology with their native faith. To this day mythological creatures like the Dev are shared in stories like Shahnameh.
The Europe article does later mention Armenia - but clearly in the 1st picture does not have Armenia highlighted, or Turkey, or Cyprus, or Israel - though all have geopolitical ties to Europe. I want to mention that the Asia article does have modern Armenia highlighted and later lists Armenia.
Also for the sake of consistency - Armenia is in the List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Asia, Economy of Asia, Geography of Asia, Languages of Asia, Flags of Asia, etc… the list goes on of Asian, West Asian, and Middle eastern articles Armenia is mentioned in and has historically and culturally engaged with or overlapped. I repeat, its not exclusively European geopolitically.
The Council of Europe was mentioned, this council also includes Turkey, a country in the Middle East. Kazakhstan was also in the process of trying to join - and is currently on the path to join after improving human rights concerns. Kazakhstan is arguably a very Central Asian country - both culturally and politically. Getting into the council doesn't make you exclusively geopolitically European - it just adds to the complexity of a country's geopolitical standing.
I want to mention that in the Armenia article its mentioned in the forth paragraph in that its a member of the council of Europe. Its not as if there's a total neglect of Armenia's geopolitics. If anything I think the numerous Asian and Middle Eastern connections need more representation in the first sections subsequent paragraphs. There should be no double standard, as was stated above and we must stay neutral.
I want to add that determining how culturally European Armenia is a subjective one. As Armenia culturally has consistently shown to be complex with elements of the Middle East, West Asia, the Caucasuses, and Europe.
For example under Middle Eastern Cuisine Armenian cuisine is listed. Cuisine is one of the biggest parts of any culture. Armenian Cuisine historically is quite west asian with main stay dishes like dolma, listed under its article as its place of origin in the Middle East. Lahmacun, also known as Armenia pizza - with its origin listed as the Middle East. Börek has Ottoman origins according to its article page, its another very common Armenian dish. Armenian coffee, listed under Turkish coffee with its origins according to the article from Yemen. Manti another very important Armenian dish has its roots in Central Asia and East Asia. I could name many more examples, clearing showing that Armenian Cuisine wise is not "Culturally European" - instead its culturally multifaceted and reflects its unique history.
For another example Armenians living in Armenia and abroad are overwhelming apart of the Armenian Apostolic Church - which is apart of the Oriental Orthodox Churches and theologically had much more in common with other Miaphysitism doctrine churches as opposed to European Christian doctrine. You can see on the Oriental Orthodoxy by country article the unique worldwide distribution - in West Asia, Africa, South Asia - of churches who rejected the council of chalcedon. Coptic Christians, Syriac Christians, Ethiopian Christians are all majority adherents of oriental orthodox religious doctrine. Religion is a huge part of Armenia culturally and aligns more with Armenia's west asian cultural ties as the first Christian state historically - with West Asia being the original birth place of Christianity.
I can name many more cultural connections outside Europe. Again Armenia isn't solely European culturally.
Armenia is regional Member of the Asian Development Bank, a regional bank development started in Japan - again showing Armenia's geopolitical complexity with Asia. It's also a prospective member of the Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank. Economically after Russia, Armenia's main export partner is Iran under the Economy of Armenia article - any economy is a geopolitical sphere and Armenia's is again clearly diverse.
Armenia is in numerous geopolitically complex organizations including the Federation of Euro-Asian Stock Exchanges, [Euroasian Union]], Eurasian Customs Union, Eurasian Development Bank.
Someone had mentioned organizations like the European Olympic Committees - this organization also has Middle Eastern countries like Israel and Turkey. The previously mentioned European Cultural Convention has as a member Kazakhstan, Cyprus, and Turkey - again this just showcases unique geopolitical complexities. I could keep going. Eurovision has had Morocco participate, does that make Morocco culturally European? No. Again, to be neutral we need to mention every caveat.
Armenia has geopolitical complexity in terms of Europe, the Middle East, West Asia, and Central Asia. Objectively stating Armenia is geopolitically and culturally European flattens its reality - that I hopefully backed up with numerous agreed upon articles.
I disagree with changing the lead in the way suggested. I also again want to mention that in the of article of Cyprus the lead does not get into speculative geopolitics - just geography and then later paragraphs talk of its geopolitical ties. Cyprus isn't just a potential member of the EU, they are in the EU. Also again Kazakhstan has the potential to be member of the EU, that does not make the country politically and culturally European. EU ascension does not equate to a exclusive European geopolitical reality.
Armenia could use more geopolitical context in later paragraphs after the header, but these potential additions should show its complex multi continental, multi regional, and multi geopolitical spheres of influence.
Neglecting every thing I mentioned above would also be turning a blind eye and in some capacity needs to be reflected. Armenia is at a crossroads of numerous spheres, historically, culturally, geopolitically and so on and should be stated in some capacity. -- QeeGeeBee ( talk) 17:03, 15 October 2020 (UTC)
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus region of Western Asia, however, it is generally considered geopolitically European. As it aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus region of Western Asia, however, it is generally considered geopolitically European. As it aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. While Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus, it is generally considered geopolitically European. Since Armenia aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Armenia is a developing country and ranks 81st on the Human Development Index (2018). Its economy is primarily based on industrial output and mineral extraction. While Armenia is geographically located in the South Caucasus, it is generally considered geopolitically European. Since Armenia aligns itself in many respects geopolitically with Europe, the country is a member of numerous European organizations including the Council of Europe, the Eastern Partnership, Eurocontrol, the Assembly of European Regions, and the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development. Armenia is also a member of certain regional groups throughout Eurasia, including the Asian Development Bank, the Collective Security Treaty Organization, the Eurasian Union, and the Eurasian Development Bank. Armenia supports the de facto independent Artsakh, which was proclaimed in 1991. Armenia also recognises the Armenian Apostolic Church, the world's oldest national church, as the country's primary religious establishment. The republic has separation of church and state. The unique Armenian alphabet was created by Mesrop Mashtots in 405 AD.
Came here to find out about the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh war but this doesn't appear to be linked despite recent events. Any reason for this? Sephiroth storm ( talk) 23:31, 9 November 2020 (UTC)
The map under "Ethnic groups" should be edited, as it's outdated. RobinVictor ( talk) 18:59, 26 November 2020 (UTC)
The only part of the ‘disputed lands’ (so to speak) that border Armenia and which are still not administered by Azerbaijan is the Lachin corridor. This area is not under the control of the ‘de facto’ ‘Republic of Artzakh’. Rather, the Lachin corridor is under the control of a Russian peacekeeping force. This is provided for in art. 6 of the Nov 2020 Trilateral Agreement between Armenia, Azerbaijan and Russia.
Accordingly, Armenia no longer borders the ‘Republic of Artsakh’. None of the land of Armenia borders areas under the control of the ‘Republic of Artsakh’. I have updated the description of the countries that border Armenia in the lede to take this into account. Frenchmalawi ( talk) 14:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)
Steverci, can you avoid POV-pushing and engage in denialism? This is not exclusively about Caucasus Edition, which the article is authored by an Armenian journalist. If you have a problem with Caucasus Edition, head over to the noticeboard. I've also shown New York Times and RFE/RL as sources. Even if you had a problem with some kind of Armenian-protests, you could've moved the information to a different sentence, instead of completely removing it. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:55, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
Peaceful protests in Armenia supporting the Karabakh Armenians were met with anti-Armenian pogroms in Azerbaijan, such as the one in Sumgait, which was followed by anti-Azerbaijani violence in Armenia.While here, you say
claiming widespread "anti-Azerbaijani violence" is WP:OR, as is claiming any connection to protests in Armenia.The text doesn't include the word "widespread" and relates it to Sumgait, not the protests. Just to be sure, have you actually read the paragraph, or all of this is just a misunderstanding? --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 16:59, 11 January 2021 (UTC)
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Please move the presidents surname to Sarksyan in the info box. The letter գ is usually pronounced as [kʰ] -- if it is not the initial letter -- in Eastern Armenian, too. Rather an exception is f.e. Գագիկ ([gɯ'gik]) where it is in fact prounounces as [g] in both cases. By the way, it is the same with դ (pay attention to the pronunciations of օդ, կարդալ) and բ (երբ, շաբաթ). 2. Սարգսյան ([sɯɹkʰəs'jan]) derives from Սարգիս, therefore it is the best to write it in English with i. Compare f.e. մսի (the genitive case of միս). The ի falls out but [ə] jumps in instead of it -- note that is not reflected by the Armenian diction. Armen Sarksyan has already changed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.105.95.54 ( talk) 15:50, 18 May 2021 (UTC)
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Soviet union general ( talk) 16:52, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
can I edit this article please
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CAN I EDIT THIS PLEASE, I WILL NOT DO ANYTHING BAD I SWEAR JUST PLEASE I WILL NOT MESS IT UP PEASEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Soviet union general ( talk) 01:44, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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CAN I EDIT?????????? Soviet union general ( talk) 01:45, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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Soviet union general ( talk) 01:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)
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Please add the Kingdom of Armenia (antiquity) in the establishment section. İt was the empire of tigranes the great. And also fix the presidents name back to sarkissian. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.108.138.146 ( talk) 14:10, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
However, the most easily identifiable ancestors of the later Armenian nation are the Urartians.