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On 27 July 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Aramaic languages. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Hello,
I find it weird that Aramaic is called Aramaic languages. It is globally known as one language and most sources confirm this. I would like to prefer to change the introduction and short summary. Beside that Syriac became synonymous to Aramaic. Not only the Syriac dialect (the Aramaic dialect of Edessa) which is also called Edessan Aramaic is called Syriac. The Western Aramaic dialect of Maaloula is called Suryon in Aramaic itself, meaning Syriac.
Arabic is also a language with different dialects but at the end it is still one language. Same counts for Aramaic.
https://www.amazon.com/Aramaic-History-First-World-Language/dp/0802877486
https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Aramaic-Syriac-Language-Arabic/dp/1593330316
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/hug/5/1/article-p63.pdf
Syriac563 (
talk)
22:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
The Smithsonian magazine mentions in reference to the Library of Alexandria:
“the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek for the first time, making it accessible to foreigners, as well as Judeans who spoke Greek and Aramaic rather than Hebrew.” [1]
‘Aramaic’ in the quote from the article hyperlinks to the Aramaic page on Omniglot which states
“Aramaic is a Semitic language which was the lingua franca of much of the Near East from about 7th century BC until the 7th century AD, when it was largely replaced by Arabic. Classical or Imperial Aramaic was the main language of the Persian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires and spread as far as Greece and the Indus valley.
After Alexander the Great destroyed the Persian Empire, Aramaic ceased to be the official language of any major state, though continued to be spoken widely. It was during this period that Aramaic split into western and eastern dialects.
Today Biblical Aramaic, Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialects and the Aramaic language of the Talmud are written in the Hebrew alphabet, while the Syriac alphabet is used to write Syriac and Christian Neo-Aramaic dialects, and the Mandaic alphabet is used for Mandaic.” [2]
Based on these descriptions Aramaic sounds like it could be a pluricentric language with approximately 6 dialects and 3 scripts.
Regarding mutual intelligibility, there is mention on this page’s article already that many of the dialects are not mutually intelligible.
IceCuba ( talk) 15:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
The overarching concept of Aramaic, strictly a historical-linguistic abstraction, is made more concrete by various terms for the various Aramaic languages (or dialects, where we are mainly dealing with regional vernaculars without a written tradition; the neutral term variety includes both categories).So, in sum it’s seen as a language family containing more than dialects. S.K. ( talk) 06:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Oppose per AjaxSmack, and per the fact that 'Aramaic' is very commonly used to refer to any of its variants. It would help though if the lead would sooner and more clearly specify that it's also a language family. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC). That’s what the lead section does and what was reaffirmed by multiple other editors afterwards by reverting the changes by Syriac563 and his related IPs. If you don’t provide reliable sources I‘ll revert your edit again. S.K. ( talk) 23:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
References
I can speak amaraic 2604:25C0:E06:6601:652C:CD8D:4293:A240 ( talk) 11:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I really want to type the language out but don't know where to get the necessary keyboards. 92.40.214.171 ( talk) 07:19, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
I think this page should be renamed back to Aramaic language. Aramaic is one language with different dialected and variants. 62.225.227.235 ( talk) 16:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Shmayo
May I ask why you delete sourced information after the edits of IP: 5.147.130.106?
Why did you delete the Aramean name from the following part of the article?
Aramaic served as a language of public life and administration of ancient kingdoms and empires, and also as a language of divine worship and religious study. Several modern varieties, the Neo-Aramaic languages, are still spoken by the Assyrians, Arameans (Syriacs) of the Qalamoun mountains, Mandeans and Mizrahi Jews 217.213.72.23 ( talk) 12:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
How is nephrologist Anas Abou-Ismail's book a good source on this? The article you keep adding is, just as Remsense pointed out above, is about the ancient group of tribes referred to as Arameans, are you aware of this? While the other one being added is on modern Aramean identity of some Syriac Christians, which people referred to here are not. Shmayo ( talk) 12:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
First, please leave such accusation out, it will not benefit you in any way. It sure is a narrow topic, but that does not justify anecdotal information to be used as a source here, nor any equal to self-published ones. I do think it is wrong to link to " Arameans" or " Terms for Syriac Christians" in this Wikipedia article when referring to these approx. 5000 (?) speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic. Further, I do think that the article " Maaloula" does a good job in explaining that they have been withstanding Arabization. As for Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch and the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, which the Christian part belong to here, these churches follow the Byzantine Rite, not the Syriac rite, whether they are listed there in a Wikipedia article or not. A point for improvement. Also, since I assume you are new here, I suggest starting here. Shmayo ( talk) 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
The Western Neo-Aramaic speaking Arameans were linked to Arameans (Syriacs). The subcategory is labeled "Aramean identity" under Terms for Syriac Christians, because a modern page does not exist. This absence is due to disputes among Christian Eastern Aramaic-speaking groups regarding their ethnic origins, disputes that do not affect speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic. Additionally, Jubbadin and Bakah were Christian villages more than 250 years ago. User Shmayo is solely focused on suppressing and manipulating any Information; he/she is even an "Assyrian Wikipedian" as mentioned on his/her profile. If you follow his/her latest contributions, this becomes evident:
Source: A Political History of the Arameans, p. 96 "...Mesopotamia, specifically the great bend of the Euphrates River "
Before: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aram-Naharaim&oldid=1100567317
"for the ancient land of the Arameans referring to the region of Mesopotamia."
After Shmayo's editing: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aram-Naharaim&oldid=1119275367
"for the ancient land of the Arameans referring to the region along the great bend of the Euphrates river."
Anything that could relate Arameans with Mesopotamia was removed from the article or manipulated. Shmayo is following an ideological narrative.
Quote from an Assyrian nationalist website:"Assyrians live in Upper Mesopotamia (Beth Nahrain) East of the Euphrates River, while Arameans live in the Levant West of the Euphrates River."
Hence why Shmayo wrote "along" the rivers. Paddan-Aram and Aram-Nahraim covered Mesopotamia in general, specifically the bent of the Euphrates river as mentioned, which would also cover southeastern Anatolia, thus it would contradict the ideological narrative that Arameans were only present in the "West of the Euphrates River" made by modern Assyrians.
ARCHAEOLOGY & THE OLD TESTAMENT, p.16 "The Greek term "Mesopotamia" refers to the stretch of land located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. This term is equivalent to the Hebrew designation "Aram-naharaim," as evidenced by the fact that the translators of the Greek Septuagi typically translated "Aram-naharaim" as "Mesopotamia.""
This user is by no mean neutral or acts in the interest of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:3038:201:74CC:D599:ACE5:BE37:C787 ( talk) 13:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Aramaic article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: Index, 1, 2Auto-archiving period: 90 days |
Aramaic is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on April 18, 2005. | ||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This
level-4 vital article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
This article has been
mentioned by a media organization:
|
On 27 July 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Aramaic languages. The result of the discussion was not moved. |
Hello,
I find it weird that Aramaic is called Aramaic languages. It is globally known as one language and most sources confirm this. I would like to prefer to change the introduction and short summary. Beside that Syriac became synonymous to Aramaic. Not only the Syriac dialect (the Aramaic dialect of Edessa) which is also called Edessan Aramaic is called Syriac. The Western Aramaic dialect of Maaloula is called Suryon in Aramaic itself, meaning Syriac.
Arabic is also a language with different dialects but at the end it is still one language. Same counts for Aramaic.
https://www.amazon.com/Aramaic-History-First-World-Language/dp/0802877486
https://www.amazon.com/Grammar-Aramaic-Syriac-Language-Arabic/dp/1593330316
https://www.degruyter.com/downloadpdf/journals/hug/5/1/article-p63.pdf
Syriac563 (
talk)
22:12, 18 October 2022 (UTC)
The Smithsonian magazine mentions in reference to the Library of Alexandria:
“the Hebrew Bible was translated into Greek for the first time, making it accessible to foreigners, as well as Judeans who spoke Greek and Aramaic rather than Hebrew.” [1]
‘Aramaic’ in the quote from the article hyperlinks to the Aramaic page on Omniglot which states
“Aramaic is a Semitic language which was the lingua franca of much of the Near East from about 7th century BC until the 7th century AD, when it was largely replaced by Arabic. Classical or Imperial Aramaic was the main language of the Persian, Babylonian and Assyrian empires and spread as far as Greece and the Indus valley.
After Alexander the Great destroyed the Persian Empire, Aramaic ceased to be the official language of any major state, though continued to be spoken widely. It was during this period that Aramaic split into western and eastern dialects.
Today Biblical Aramaic, Jewish Neo-Aramaic dialects and the Aramaic language of the Talmud are written in the Hebrew alphabet, while the Syriac alphabet is used to write Syriac and Christian Neo-Aramaic dialects, and the Mandaic alphabet is used for Mandaic.” [2]
Based on these descriptions Aramaic sounds like it could be a pluricentric language with approximately 6 dialects and 3 scripts.
Regarding mutual intelligibility, there is mention on this page’s article already that many of the dialects are not mutually intelligible.
IceCuba ( talk) 15:34, 20 November 2022 (UTC)
The overarching concept of Aramaic, strictly a historical-linguistic abstraction, is made more concrete by various terms for the various Aramaic languages (or dialects, where we are mainly dealing with regional vernaculars without a written tradition; the neutral term variety includes both categories).So, in sum it’s seen as a language family containing more than dialects. S.K. ( talk) 06:02, 21 November 2022 (UTC)
Oppose per AjaxSmack, and per the fact that 'Aramaic' is very commonly used to refer to any of its variants. It would help though if the lead would sooner and more clearly specify that it's also a language family. ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 10:17, 11 August 2022 (UTC). That’s what the lead section does and what was reaffirmed by multiple other editors afterwards by reverting the changes by Syriac563 and his related IPs. If you don’t provide reliable sources I‘ll revert your edit again. S.K. ( talk) 23:00, 13 December 2022 (UTC)
References
I can speak amaraic 2604:25C0:E06:6601:652C:CD8D:4293:A240 ( talk) 11:40, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
I really want to type the language out but don't know where to get the necessary keyboards. 92.40.214.171 ( talk) 07:19, 4 October 2023 (UTC)
I think this page should be renamed back to Aramaic language. Aramaic is one language with different dialected and variants. 62.225.227.235 ( talk) 16:20, 8 December 2023 (UTC)
@ Shmayo
May I ask why you delete sourced information after the edits of IP: 5.147.130.106?
Why did you delete the Aramean name from the following part of the article?
Aramaic served as a language of public life and administration of ancient kingdoms and empires, and also as a language of divine worship and religious study. Several modern varieties, the Neo-Aramaic languages, are still spoken by the Assyrians, Arameans (Syriacs) of the Qalamoun mountains, Mandeans and Mizrahi Jews 217.213.72.23 ( talk) 12:03, 25 December 2023 (UTC)
How is nephrologist Anas Abou-Ismail's book a good source on this? The article you keep adding is, just as Remsense pointed out above, is about the ancient group of tribes referred to as Arameans, are you aware of this? While the other one being added is on modern Aramean identity of some Syriac Christians, which people referred to here are not. Shmayo ( talk) 12:56, 30 January 2024 (UTC)
First, please leave such accusation out, it will not benefit you in any way. It sure is a narrow topic, but that does not justify anecdotal information to be used as a source here, nor any equal to self-published ones. I do think it is wrong to link to " Arameans" or " Terms for Syriac Christians" in this Wikipedia article when referring to these approx. 5000 (?) speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic. Further, I do think that the article " Maaloula" does a good job in explaining that they have been withstanding Arabization. As for Greek Orthodox Church of Antioch and the Melkite Greek Catholic Church, which the Christian part belong to here, these churches follow the Byzantine Rite, not the Syriac rite, whether they are listed there in a Wikipedia article or not. A point for improvement. Also, since I assume you are new here, I suggest starting here. Shmayo ( talk) 09:28, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
The Western Neo-Aramaic speaking Arameans were linked to Arameans (Syriacs). The subcategory is labeled "Aramean identity" under Terms for Syriac Christians, because a modern page does not exist. This absence is due to disputes among Christian Eastern Aramaic-speaking groups regarding their ethnic origins, disputes that do not affect speakers of Western Neo-Aramaic. Additionally, Jubbadin and Bakah were Christian villages more than 250 years ago. User Shmayo is solely focused on suppressing and manipulating any Information; he/she is even an "Assyrian Wikipedian" as mentioned on his/her profile. If you follow his/her latest contributions, this becomes evident:
Source: A Political History of the Arameans, p. 96 "...Mesopotamia, specifically the great bend of the Euphrates River "
Before: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aram-Naharaim&oldid=1100567317
"for the ancient land of the Arameans referring to the region of Mesopotamia."
After Shmayo's editing: https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Aram-Naharaim&oldid=1119275367
"for the ancient land of the Arameans referring to the region along the great bend of the Euphrates river."
Anything that could relate Arameans with Mesopotamia was removed from the article or manipulated. Shmayo is following an ideological narrative.
Quote from an Assyrian nationalist website:"Assyrians live in Upper Mesopotamia (Beth Nahrain) East of the Euphrates River, while Arameans live in the Levant West of the Euphrates River."
Hence why Shmayo wrote "along" the rivers. Paddan-Aram and Aram-Nahraim covered Mesopotamia in general, specifically the bent of the Euphrates river as mentioned, which would also cover southeastern Anatolia, thus it would contradict the ideological narrative that Arameans were only present in the "West of the Euphrates River" made by modern Assyrians.
ARCHAEOLOGY & THE OLD TESTAMENT, p.16 "The Greek term "Mesopotamia" refers to the stretch of land located between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. This term is equivalent to the Hebrew designation "Aram-naharaim," as evidenced by the fact that the translators of the Greek Septuagi typically translated "Aram-naharaim" as "Mesopotamia.""
This user is by no mean neutral or acts in the interest of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:3038:201:74CC:D599:ACE5:BE37:C787 ( talk) 13:39, 31 January 2024 (UTC)