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Could user Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 please clarify what I was plagiarising in my last edit? I properly attributed the source of this information, provided citations to the several sources (which are RS) and I am certainly not attempting to pass this work off as my own. I attempted to alter the wording to greater extent then before, but if this is not sufficient, please let me know. I have asked Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 to discuss this on my talk page but he has so far refused to. Therefore, I will bring the issue up here.( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 09:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC))
The recent additions have been problematic in a number of ways. Firstly changes to sentences have been made without altering the citations which support them. This can create the impression that the citations say something that they do not. Also there is a confusion between two quite separate issues - whether the term is a "misnomer" (arguably that is the case) and whether it therefore should be used differently. user:Galerita's edit summary implies that he thinks the latter ("The references & the title of Wilhelm Marr's pamphlet suggest anti-semitism was chosen to avoid the religious overtones of Judenhass. For NPOV the refs also make abundantly clear there is significant opposition to the narrow defintion of antisemitism". IMO, they don't.) The EB has been cited on this, which is certainly legitimate. But we should avoid confusion. " Anti-Americanism" refers exclusively to the United States of America. It does not, nor has it ever, meant "antipathy to the people of the continent of America". So it is valid to say BOTH "Hugo Chavez has been accused of being anti-American" and "Hugo Chavez is South American". Likewise " Francophobia" is not aversion to the Franks, or Franconians, despite its etymology. This point, has of course been made repeatedly. In my view the EB is simply wrong to use the term "misnomer", but of course it's a respected source, so its position can legitimately be included with regard to due weight. Paul B ( talk) 15:04, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
I undid a recent edit adding a paragraph sourced to a JPost article about the scholar named above criticizing the Bundestag. I don't think I did a good job of clarifying my objection in the edit summary, so I wanted to spell it out here. In particular I think it focuses too much on one person's comments, and even those don't appear to be reported outside the JP. That being said, I think there's a lot of good material from the controversies stemming from the circumcision stuff, and would suggest this article as a better basis for a paragraph. a13ean ( talk) 17:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
But Voyage of the Damned isn't mentioned here. It has been also removed from History of antisemitism. Please explain why US antisemitism isn't antisemitism. Xx236 ( talk) 10:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC) See also History of antisemitism in the United States. Xx236 ( talk) 14:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Can this be trimmed of the articles that are already linked in the article body? The section seems pretty bloated. I might come back later but wanted to post here first. Thank you. -- Malerooster ( talk) 03:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I think the quote from an opinion piece by Mudar Zahran ought to be removed from the Palestinian section of this article. It is interesting in a way but it is not a reliable source (as an opinion piece from a highly contraversial figure) about anything and is only relevant on its own merits rather than as a source. As such it is way too fringe for this main article (which is way to long anyway). As I have said before a long lower quality article undermines the impact of ths topic considerably. -- BozMo talk 13:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
01:27, 29 November 2012 (UTC)Getting to be too much back and forth. Rather than block anybody, it stops them from discussing, I protected. CambridgeBayWeather ( talk) 07:10, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
04:27, 30 November 2012 (UTC)This isn't urgent so I'm not making it an edit request, but I'm putting this here so either I or someone else remembers to do it once the page is unprotected - anyway, I'm certain that "apocalyptic antisemitism" is not actually a strain of antisemitism the way economic, racial etc. are, but simply the coincidental usage of the phrase "apocalyptic" to describe antisemitism by two different authors. (The second source cited, the encyclopedia, also uses the phrase "overt antisemitism", but I don't think we would call that a strain either - it is antisemitism that is overt.) Actually, when I noticed that heading, I expected that it would be about something else. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 08:07, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Copy/pasting from my response on my talk page: As I said in my edit summary, I agree that some mention of orientalism may be warranted in the article - it's just that it should be written up rather than just linked, so that readers have some idea of why it is included. Do you think you [Evildoer187 ]could write up a short paragraph on that? I also don't think the category belongs because so much antisemitism is not about orientalism.
(Also - I question the addition of "diaspora". Was that community the largest diaspora community, or the largest at all??) – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 04:31, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Here's the link again, if you need it: [1] Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
By the way, what does the size of the diaspora community have to do with anything? It seems irrelevant to me. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I typed up a paragraph on Orientalism, as you requested. Here it is:
Ashkenazi Jews, who are of ancestral South West Asian origins and culturally (and often physically) isolated from the indigenous European populations amongst whom they were resident, were widely understood to be an Oriental people in many of the European countries they had settled. One notable example of this is Immanuel Kant, who once referred to the local Jewish population as "Palestinians among us" in his Anthropology from a Pragmatic Point of View book. [2] As such, many of the oldest and longest enduring anti-Jewish stereotypes are rooted in Euro-centric prejudices towards peoples of the East. This trend, now commonly known as Orientalism, is the conception of Asian and North African peoples as mysterious, dishonestly and manipulatively intelligent, overly sensual, warlike, and barbarically loyal to their 'tribe' instead of humanity. Examples of this include Jewish conspiracy theories and myths such as blood libels (even though consumption of blood is not kosher), the Jewish killing of Christ, myths of supernatural Jewish powers, Zionist collaboration with the Nazis, Jewish money stereotypes, fears of a Jewish or Zionist 'plot to control the world' (see also: Protocols of the Elders of Zion) and the general idea that Jews/Zionists are immoral, mysterious, demonic, and often act secretly behind the scenes. [3]
Evildoer187 ( talk) 12:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't think it fits in one specific category because a lot of these categories (cultural, racial, economic, apocalyptic, conspiracy theories, and new antisemitism) have their roots in Euro-centric prejudices against Asian/North African peoples i.e. Orientalism. My suggestion would be to add another category and call it "Orientalism", explaining how a lot of antisemitism is driven by, if not directly rooted in, Orientalist prejudice. Evildoer187 ( talk) 11:46, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
What I just provided is a reliable source. I already explained why on the Jews talk page. Evildoer187 ( talk) 13:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough. I feel it deserves a mention though. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Looking at a recent edit to the article opening, I think that the entire lede here is potentially problematic. Antisemitism (as the article content well demonstrates) is a complex topic that is difficult to define pithily. By trying to have a short once-and-for-all definition, the lede I think over-simplifies it to the point of distorting its meaning. I think the opening definition should be a non-contentious subset of a full definition, that does not give the impression that it is a complete definition; then the reader is invited to discover more in the article body. I think the Anti-Zionism article is a model in doing this (although that article has other problems). The opening words here could be simply "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews". I think the following list of historical instances, and the discussion of the word's origin would also be better devolved into the article body. Alexbrn ( talk) 05:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Okay, at the risk of getting into a general discussion, consider three (hypothetical) statements: (1) "I have no problem with Jews in themselves, so long as they accept the Holocaust is not historically proven and that those with power use their power to invent history"; (2) "I have no problem with Jews in themselves, but it must be admitted that Israel, with its immense wealth and tentacles extending into Western governments, has too much power and alone among nations pursues inhuman, monstrous policies"; (3) "I have no problem with Jews in themselves, but Palestine must be free - free from the river to the sea". Are any of these antisemitic? According to the ad hoc opening "definition" in this article's opening arguably not. But according to a properly sourced definition, almost certainly so. So at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam the problem here is that this article is providing an unsourced, unverified definition of antisemitism which is out-of-sync with verifiable sources in such a way that it makes a meaningful difference when it's put to the test. Alexbrn ( talk) 19:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Redheylin — I was being quite straight when I wrote "I believe some people regard …" as this is something I have heard said, and which I repeated to inform the discussion here; as it happens I don't have a personal view on this precise aspect of the debate (and I believe trying to speculate about what editors' personal views are is unhelpful). I wouldn't like to say why the web stats are as they are: Google hit counts don't verify anything clearly one way or the other. I do, however, think the claim than antisemitism encompasses anti-Arab feeling is extraordinary, and so would need extraordinarily convincing sources to have it in the article, and especially in its lede. Having the claim there falls foul of WP:UNDUE and maybe WP:FRINGE – and for that reason (for the purposes of clarifying consensus) I object strongly to your two recent edits that try to place it there. Alexbrn ( talk) 17:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Redheylin, I agree about the "theatre of edit-war" flavour of the lede, and yes - some aspects of your edit are okay, but taken overall I object to it for the reasons i give above. On the topic of personal interests/opinions, I think for Wikipedia in general - and for such a topic as this in particular - there is no value whatsoever in considering them. Editors should resolve just to "not go there"! It seems to me part of the difficulty of this current discussion is there is more than one intersecting discussion going on about the lede. Perhaps a useful consolidation exercise might be to see if we can get consensus at least on where we have got to, and what the issues are before continuing. I think they are:
— am I right in thinking these are the issues being contended? Alexbrn ( talk) 21:19, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
User:Hyperionsteel - thank you for your well-considered answer. I agree that Massad's work, while scholarly and notable, may well be influenced, as a Palestinian, by his views on the state of Israel, but the "antisemitism" issue is not merely his idea, nor always related to Israel, the founding of which it precedes so, while I accept your personal view is sincerely held, it is no more than a personal view. For my part I'd not venture to base the entire article on his work, but I would have you consider the following sources, all freely used in the article; Ha'aretz, The Jerusalem Post, The Stephen Roth Institute, The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, The Holocaust History Project, The Anti-Defamation League - and ask you to consider whether or not all Wikipedia editors might accept these sources, among others, as clearly neutral. If not it is up to us to achieve neutrality, first by accurate use of cited sources, second by taking due cognisance of the widespread nature of the debate ("We have the "does anti-Arab hate = antisemitism" issue all the time") and lastly but not least, to take care to balance non-neutral sources appropriately, for which last purpose Massad is sufficiently reliable and notable. It seems to me that these three things are not being done, and so neutrality has not been achieved. The only other possibility is to remove ALL aligned and interested sources. Redheylin ( talk) 00:33, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Redheylin's observations that Hyperionsteel's response, which is in effect saying "Massad's use of the word can't be considered useful because he is an antisemite himself," is not a strong argument, as it's an ad hominem. To answer the question "What should be in the article, and what emphasis should the article give?" I'd rather look for consensus across the best available reliable secondary and tertiary sources. I looked at a few dozen search results for "antisemitism" in Google Scholar and Highbeam, and reviewed the use of the word by secondary and tertiary sources. My observation is that academic reliable sources overwhelmingly consider antisemitism to be, as
Encyclopedia Britannica puts it, "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group." EB goes out of its way to say "Arabs and other peoples are also Semites, and yet they are not the targets of anti-Semitism as it is usually understood." The other sources bore this out. The application of 'antisemitism' to groups other than Jews, and to Arabs in particular, does happen, but is a highly unusual use of the term, to the point of being a striking rhetorical device used to make a point when it does happen. Massad's article is a case in point. Redheylin does have a point that the article should mention this, but in line with
WP:DUE weight it should be only briefly in the body of the article, perhaps a sentence or two. The sources do not at all support having this use of the term take up half of the first paragraph of the lead, as was proposed in the edit under discussion. Personally, I don't see the sources supporting a mention of this highly unusual use of the word in the lead at all, but could be convinced otherwise if sufficient high-quality secondary sourcing were found for it.
Zad
68
01:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Roscolese, I use the dictionary I have. That's what it says. It is a definition that does not contradict the rest of the article. On the other hand the following statements are contradicted by Bein and other modern authorities;
The contradiction is with the following, already in the text;
- I pointed this out the other day. No response.
The following quote, used several times, is misquoted by removing the rider "for the purposes of this report";
The following, already in the text, is contradicted in the lede and elsewhere;
Finally, the account of Steinschneider I added is far more refined and better-sourced.
Roscolese, I take your remark about "cherry-picking" as an accusation of bad faith, and ask you to modify or to withdraw it, please.
Both of you, I draw your attention again to; Wikipedia:ARBPIA "All articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict *broadly construed* are under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). *When in doubt, assume it is related*
I look forward to a point for point justification of all material you have reverted. Thanks. Redheylin ( talk) 05:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello Alex, thank you for responding. Now, point for point! Can you point out where the edit you reverted "extended (the article) to encompass anti-Arabism" and "attempted to decide an ongoing discussion in a certain way"? And can you explain why you reintroduced the objective failings of the article I listed above? Especially, why did you remove the clarifications "normally/usually" and "for the purposes of this report", which you yourself have said are better representations of cited sources? This, again, is a matter of fact, and nobody has contradicted you - they can not! Is it OK to revert without discussing? Is it OK to revert without even reading? Redheylin ( talk) 06:42, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The recent discussions about the definition of antisemitism and how it is described in the lede, has furthered my conviction that the Article currently does this poorly. I think the "heat" of the discussion is a symptom of that: because there is no authoritative definition given, there is a risk of other, dubious/fringe definitions claiming a right to be here. As editors here have been pointing out, there is a vast range of opinion on how antisemitism is defined. The problem then is how we as editors pick and choose among these, to decide which to include, and how to synthesize them, while maintaining a visible and defensible NPOV. What we really need is some "super-survey" of antisemitism, which provides an authoritative distillation which we can cite. Well, I believe just such a thing exists: the so-called "EUMC" definition which came out of the European Forum on Antisemitism (now the Union Agency for Fundamental Rights). This piece of work aimed at drafting "a single, comprehensive definition for use in the field". The working definition is available here (and is of course, already mentioned in this Article).
Using this document as a gold-standard source, I think we have a way to address the question above of whether prejudice against non-Jews counts as antisemitism. I propose that since the EUMC definition casts antisemitism purely as a phenomenon involving Jews, Jewishness, Jewish institutions, and the Jewish state, anything which falls outside this can be considered as WP:FRINGE. This is not to say that such definitions are not worthy of a proportionate (i.e. brief) mention in the body of the article, but should probably be identified as minority views. I further think that the article should use the EUMC definition as its opening words: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.” This is an up-to-date view which has been synthesized by experts, and so beats (I suggest) anything which we as Wikipedia editors might synthesize ourselves. Alexbrn ( talk) 09:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Sure. It's quite rare, I think, to find much scholarly work that evaluates definitions such as this; they tend instead to restate it and analyse its real-world reception. Nevertheless, here are some pertinent snippets from books (I can't search journals just now).
I'm sorry Redheylin, but it's not clear to me what your current proposal is. Could you please briefly list your proposed "before" and "after" texts? Jayjg (talk) 02:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Zad
68
17:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)I have just looked at the cited report [5] to try to find why in the article the UK summary on current situation says "It found a reversal of this progress since 2000." I do not think this phrase is remotely representative of the report which concludes that although the UK remains "one of the least antisemitic societies in the world" "there are greater fears now about antisemitism than there have been for many decades". The report endorses both statements as currently true and does not use the terms of the summary in the article which imply (offensively I might add) that the UK (which has been pretty multi-cultural for centuries) has recently ceased to be predominantly inclusive and has recently ceased to be one of the least AS countries in the world. -- BozMo talk 17:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Semites are not exclusives Jewish; therefore, it is crucial to detach the word 'Jew' from the introductory paragraph unless one [editor] was to name all other Semitic peoples alongside the Jews. It is within the best interest of all other Semitic people that you do not make antisemitism exclusively about the Jewish religion. 75.32.244.23 ( talk) 01:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi
I hope I'm not the only one...but I find the "Current situation - Europe" quite lacking...there are literally no South- and Eastern Europe countries. Can't we just replace sweden or norway with one?
Regards
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk)
09:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
e.g.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2006/jun/25/toppolishtvpostforrightwi
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/6266_13.htm
these are from the AS in Europe article
and: i was inclined to replace because the article is quite LONG (maybe own article?)...and by leaving south&east europe unmentioned, it is unintentionally implied that there is NO current AS there
"AS is not a universal truth occureing everywhere or even in most places it is something which happens sometimes"
I would claim, that is a really remarkable thing to say :-( (for the western world and the near east)
regards
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk)
17:34, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
it's neither a conspiracy nor is an mirror image of anything
it's a specific form of racism, with a despicable past, and the existence of it in europe is (according to the numbers) more or less not over
"In the UK there is a lot more hostility towards the Church than there is antisemitism (and that's still not much)"
I think sometimes its better not to show to much of yourself in wp...and I don't think it's probable that you'll find any studies that are confirming this observation.
regards
Paranoid Android1208 ( talk) 14:43, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
well, I'm a firm believer that you should thoroughly read what you post...so lets fisk this "starting point" and your interpretation of it a little
e.g. Introduction section 1:
"The inquiry was established to investigate the belief, widely held within the Jewish community, that levels of antisemitism in Britain are rising. Following an investigation, we have reached the troubling conclusion that this belief is JUSTIFIED." (my emphasis)
and the definition of AS in the report: which (as one can see) is of AS incidents(verbal,physical and things like boycotts)...not attitudes and/or ANY numbers(%ages) to them.
Summary:
"UNTIL recently, the prevailing opinion both within the Jewish community and beyond _WAS_ that antisemitism HAD receded to the point that it existed only on the margins of society. However, the EVIDENCE we received INDICATES that there has been a REVERSAL of this progress since the year 2000, which has created anxiety and concern within the Jewish community."(my emphasis)
this report is 6 years old...does anything suggest that it may have(/has?) got better?
"In his oral evidence, the Chief Rabbi stated: “If you were to ask me is Britain an antisemitic society, the answer is manifestly and obviously no. It is one of the least antisemitic societies in the world.”2 However, the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews told us, “There is probably a greater feeling of discomfort, greater concerns, greater fears now about antisemitism than there have been for many decades.”3 Having considered all of the evidence submitted, we are of the opinion that there is much truth in both of these ostensibly contradictory views."
somehow you omitted the 2n and 3rd part.... ;-) *I_assume_good_faith*
ps: this is getting waaaaaaaayy to forum-ish...which is (as we all know) contrary to the WP-policy
Regards
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk)
10:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Does the Dreyfus affair really merit inclusion in a list of "extreme persecution" in the third para? Isn't notable more important than exteme? -- BozMo talk 18:26, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
In the section "Ancient world", the text '... Philo of Alexandria describes an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in which thousands of Jews died ...' appears twice and should be redacted. Grimne ( talk)
This article is way too long and quite frankly undeserving of its own separate article. It should be broken up and added to the various articles on different types of prejudice. It is also one-sided and biased, a complete violation of neutrality rules.
(rant snipped)
... I can't be alone here thinking this. My talk comments have been deleted twice which is proof in itself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.228.228.157 ( talk) 22:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
shouldn't this be part of prejudice and discrimination category? 24.94.251.19 ( talk) 06:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
The article is effective at describing one theory behind German usage of the term "anti-Semitic" during WWII. What isn't clear is what "anti-Semitic" means in modern usage, and since none of us live in WWII Germany the current description of the word's use is meaningful only as a historical footnote. Modern usage sometimes means one is against Jews the religious group, other times Jews the racial group, other times Talmudic Jews the political movement, and still other times refers to anyone who disagrees with mainstream historical accounts of the Holocaust, notes the relevance of Jews in international finance, etc. So, what does the term actually mean today? It would appear (based on modern usage) that it means anyone who disagrees with a mainstream doxy relating to Jewish heritage in any form. As such, it is a rather meaningless term, since anyone could simultaneously have his/her five best friends be fervently Jewish people and have no qualms about them, and yet be correctly labeled "anti-Semitic" if he/she disagreed with some detail of the historical account of the holocaust, the precepts of the Talmudic political movement, had noted Jewish financial influence/power, etc. I propose that an area be added that discusses this dilemma, since "anti-Semitic" in modern usage frequently means anything but hatred for actual everyday Jewish people. Perhaps the fact that a Jew who disagrees with any such mainstream doxy would also be "anti-Semitic" most aptly reveals the absurdity of the word's modern usage. A discussion of this paradox certainly deserves a place in the article. 67.235.207.140 ( talk) 16:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I doubt that we can come up with a definition that will fit all the ways that the term is used today. The person I described about used the term to describe anyone who disagreed with her about what was basically a political stance, whether they were Jewish or not. Carptrash ( talk) 17:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Ladies and gentlemen. Could we leave both horses and gavels outside? Carptrash ( talk) 20:08, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are superimposing the notions "semitic languages" and "semitic people", the category becomes extremely large. Involving people and ethnic groups of muslim and even Christian religion. Perhaps although widely used, it's not altogether correct to infer that anti-Jewish means anti-Semitic. Supermaverick ( talk) 14:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Is there a unanimous consensus about this word? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.145.73.26 ( talk) 16:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I have antisemitic feelings simply because Jews have discriminated against me, a non-Jew, "because of my heritage." Is the subject of Jewish discrimination against non-Jews a forbidden topic? -- Shortchuck ( talk) 12:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I've removed some material recently added to the article by an IP editor.
[7] The gist of the material was essentially that Jews in late 19th and early 20th century Germany were "overrepresented" in the middle and upper classes and in certain professions, and that these were "empirical economic factors" that cause antisemitism by "creat[ing] aggravation towards Jews by non-Jews in Germany especially during economic crises". Moreover, the choice of material cited seems intended to "prove" that this was indeed the case.
If this is the thrust of Brustein's argument, then the insertion appears to give
WP:UNDUE prominence to
unusual claims, and essentially
blames German antisemitism on the Jews. Moreover, I'm not at all sure that this accurately represents Brustein's views; the publisher's synopsis of Brustein's book says that "Brustein proposes that European anti-Semitism flowed from religious, racial, economic, and political roots, which became enflamed by economic distress, rising Jewish immigration, and socialist success", which is not the impression one gets from this insertion. In any event, the material obviously gives undue prominence to one author's theories about one specific Jewish population in one specific country during a relatively brief time period; there's no way so much space should be devoted to it, and certainly not any space at all in the article lead.
Jayjg
(talk)
17:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Great picture. I'm not suggesting removing it. However I just finished reading a history of the Second World War ("Moral Combat" by British historian Michael Burleigh) and I somehow feel compelled to mention that 3 million Soviet POWs of all ethnicities died in German captivity during the war, mostly from starvation and freezing being kept in outdoor enclosures or riding in the same type of railway freight cars that Jewish victims of the Holocaust did. Borock ( talk) 16:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Unless I missed it the word "democracy" does not appear in the article. Why not? Borock ( talk) 16:43, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm starting a discussion here to see if Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence should be added to the "see also" section. User:Scott Illini boldly added it, I reverted it, and then it has gone back and forth with me starting a discussion here to avoid an edit war and determine if there is a consensus to add the link.
IMO, I don't see the connection. The article mainly refers to a 2005 paper which makes a passin reference "laws [that] barred Ashkenazi Jews" as one of the many conditions that led to the paper's conclusions that Ashkenazi Jews have higher verbal and mathematical intelligence. I appreciate that WP:SEEALSO allows for links to articles that are tangentially related, but ultimately it must be relevant - and I'm just not seeing it with this one. A passing reference to antisemitism does not automatically make that article relevant to this article. Singularity42 ( talk) 11:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs of this section make very sweeping generalisations: a) re eugenics "which categorized non-Europeans as inferior". I'm not at all sure this is true - certainly not of everyone who 'followed' eugenics. This really needs to be more specific. b) "With the decreasing role of religion in public life tempering religious antisemitism" appears to be nonsense; if anything, religion played a leading role in antisemitism, witness, for instance, the Spanish Inquisition. I'm inclined to cut that clause altogether, unless someone can give a scholarly citation to justify it. In any case, both these contentions need citations or they will have to be amended/cut. Alfietucker ( talk) 18:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Similar to Petliura's self-declared Cossacks the majority of Khmelnitzky's rebels were not Cossacks at all. Contrary to Petliura's people there were Cossacks and Jews in significant numbers among Khmelnitzky's people only. The massacres were made by the mob. Crimean Karaites were Khmelnitzky's allies. Don Cossacks waged a war against Khmelnitzky's allies during Russian-Polish alliance against Khmelnitzky. Many Cossacks of Ukraine if not a majority supported the opponent of Khmelniztky prince Vishnevetzky , whose Cossack soldiers were the major anti-Khmelnitzky's force. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.70.224.196 ( talk) 20:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Need no western perspectives. That doesnt mean western views of how others see it, but other cviews of the phenemenon. Semitic includes non-jewish people.( Lihaas ( talk) 15:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)).
This is a false statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zidovi ( talk • contribs) 07:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I deleted the following sentence:
because it is both uncited and biased. For one thing, the use of the word "propaganda" has a negative connotation and implies that anti-Zionism is based on lies and misinformation. The sentence also implicitly equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Jadhachem ( talk) 03:16, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I created Adam Wiercinski to document the recent anti-Semitism case that made all the headlines. Feel free to contribute to the article. Tkuvho ( talk) 08:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
In the past few years there has been a major shift in Christian Biblical scholarship. Leading Biblical scholars such as Ehrman, Casey, Edwards have now taken the position that Jesus was a Jew and that the historical roots of Christianity must be seen in a Jewish context. This scholarship has sparked debate for some still hold the position that Jesus was a Greek speaking Galilean whose teachings were anti-Jewish. (See the heated debates at the Gospel of Matthew and the Oral gospel traditions.)
Last month, one of the world's leading historians on Early Christianity released his latest work. James D. G. Dunn, The Oral Gospel Tradition, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2013. argues that the assumption that Jesus was not Jewish has been a real stumbling block for Biblical scholars. If anything, more serious has been what might be called “institutional anti-Semitism, or more accurately anti-Judaism, which for so long disfigured Christian theology, including NT scholarship." The so called mainline or classic position of Ernest Renan, who wrote: "Fundamentally there was nothing Jewish about Jesus" is mistaken and encapsulates "Christianity's historic denigration of Judaism."
The truth is Christianity has been anti Jewish and Christian scholarship has failed to be "Christian" in its treatment of Jews. This can be seen in the disparagement of the Hebrew Gospel which is viewed as little more than a Jewish Bastardwerk. The mainline position of 20th Century scholars bordered on antisemitism. The Deutsche Christen movement produced the Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament, still the standard Theological Dictionary of the New Testament found in theological libraries and used by students all over the world as if it were nothing but a standard work of reference.
Nor should it be imagined that such bias was isolated to scholars who fought for Nazi Germany for even Bultmann was tainted by the effect of working in a German environment in which Jewishness was so unwelcome. Google Link Nor should it be imagined that such anti-Jewish sentiment was isolated to scholars coming out of Germany. Google Link. The Jewish tradition has generally been viewed pejoratively and judged inferior by many other scholars instrumental in the formation theories regarding the Synoptic tradition. Google Link. One must take care to distinguish between Biblical Scholarship based on reliable historical evidence and “the age-long, inbred, instinctive Jew-hatred” of the West.
Volume 20 of Studies in Jewish History and Culture, BRILL, 2009. -
Edwards, Casey, Ehrman etc all line up behind Dunn. Spatjudentum is not the an acceptable default setting for Christianity. Jesus was Jewish! So were his early followers along with the early Oral tradition and the first written Gospel accounts of his life. Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Dunn argues to understand the historical roots of Christianity one must look at Second Temple Judaism along with the impact of the destruction of the Temple in the year 70, for Christianity began as an enthusiastic Jewish sect. In other words we must study how the traditions of Jesus, might have functioned in first-century Palestine.
There is a growing number of historians that believe:
Not only do the Gospel of Matthew and the Oral gospel traditions need to be updated, but eventually the section on Religious antisemitism. Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. Dunn elaborates by writing If anything, more serious has been what might be called “the institutional anti- Semitism,” or more accurately anti-Judaism, which for so long disfigured Christian theology, including NT scholarship. True it seems a bit harsh but it is supported by Bart Ehrman who writes, "Christianity has by its very nature always been anti-Jewish". However I will keep an open mind. Thanks for you input. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
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On 3 August 2013, this page was damaged and not restored. A very important reference was removed pertaining to the etymology of the word anti-Semitism:
Alex Bein is the Chief Librarian of Israel, and his research pushes back the invention of the term by over a decade. The removal of this reference could be due to political motives. Regardless, this is one of the most important pieces of information that used to be in the Etymology section. Its removal is a complete mystery.
24.165.27.55 ( talk) 19:07, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Definitely this needs to be researched. People don't start to hate other people for nothing. So why the Jews are hated everywhere? Maybe some Jews could answer this - what they think is wrong with their behavior that causes anti-Semitism all around the globe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.139.66.194 ( talk) 11:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Jpgordon and Rainbowofpeace are obviously correct. But please note that the very question asked by this anonymous IP user is wrong. It was implying that only "Jews are hated everywhere", which is not true by any means. Despite the fact that Jewish people are also loved and admired by so many people around the world, just look at these examples: Christians are hated in the Arab world nearly just as much, if not even more in some areas. Anti-Islam hate (Islamophobia) is a fast growing phenomenon today too. Blacks are also hated by millions of racists everywhere. As are Asian people, Hispanics, disabled people, and, unfortunately, many more. Even certain countries are hated, such as North Korea, Afghanistan, etc.! In short, every human being on this earth is hated..
Now, as disrespectful as this IP user was in asking that question this way, the causes section should indeed be expanded. Because just like the hate directed at these different ethnic/racial/religious groups I briefly discussed above, there are various reasons for the phenomenon of anti-Jewish sentiments as well. I was actually planning on expanding that section myself some time when I have time, but if anyone would like to go ahead and do this, please do. A few well known and notable academics, books, and writers have examined the reasons for antisemitism: See
Lastly, a few of these sources may not be reliable, but I'd encourage using them to find some relevant and useful information first, and then continue from there. Regards, Shalom11111 ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Antisemitism is considered racism because Jews are considered an ethnoreligious group. Racism is discrimination based on someone's race, ethnicity or nationality. Race itself is a word without a very clear definition and it is completely unclear whether Jews (or anyone for that matter) is a race or not because of extreme variance among the defintions of race. Islamophobia is called racism several times throughout its article with no explanation to why it is called racism even though Muslims are clearly only a religious group. I therefore think we should make it clear in the article that the reason antisemitism is considered racism is because Jews are an ethnic group.- Rainbowofpeace ( talk) 02:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Definitely this needs to be researched. People don't start to hate other people for nothing. So why the Jews are hated everywhere? Maybe some Jews could answer this - what they think is wrong with their behavior that causes anti-Semitism all around the globe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.139.66.194 ( talk) 11:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Jpgordon and Rainbowofpeace are obviously correct. But please note that the very question asked by this anonymous IP user is wrong. It was implying that only "Jews are hated everywhere", which is not true by any means. Despite the fact that Jewish people are also loved and admired by so many people around the world, just look at these examples: Christians are hated in the Arab world nearly just as much, if not even more in some areas. Anti-Islam hate (Islamophobia) is a fast growing phenomenon today too. Blacks are also hated by millions of racists everywhere. As are Asian people, Hispanics, disabled people, and, unfortunately, many more. Even certain countries are hated, such as North Korea, Afghanistan, etc.! In short, every human being on this earth is hated..
Now, as disrespectful as this IP user was in asking that question this way, the causes section should indeed be expanded. Because just like the hate directed at these different ethnic/racial/religious groups I briefly discussed above, there are various reasons for the phenomenon of anti-Jewish sentiments as well. I was actually planning on expanding that section myself some time when I have time, but if anyone would like to go ahead and do this, please do. A few well known and notable academics, books, and writers have examined the reasons for antisemitism: See
Lastly, a few of these sources may not be reliable, but I'd encourage using them to find some relevant and useful information first, and then continue from there. Regards, Shalom11111 ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I have added a POV-tag to the section about the situation in Malmö. This belongs to Antisemitism in Sweden and just copying it from there to any article about the same topic is not right. Summarize the content instead. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 10:51, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I have added a POV-tag to the section about the situation in Malmö. This belongs to Antisemitism in Sweden and just copying it from there to any article about the same topic is not right. Summarize the content instead. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 10:51, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Antisemitism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "JCPA":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that the definition of Antisemitism being racism against jews, is altogether correct. Yes it does mean that, but jews aren't the only semitic people. Wikipedia has a page about semitic people ( /info/en/?search=Semitic_people) which shows that. Anti-semitism means anti-anything-semitic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninzhan5 ( talk • contribs) 23:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC) Ninzhan5 ( talk) 23:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
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128.32.146.11 ( talk) 22:52, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Why here 'pseudo-scientific' and not scientific theory that has been discredited? That sanitation of the facts is dangerous for future such theories will have the unblemished name of science at their back. The euphemism, pseudo-science, has a manifestly good intent, yet it is not judicious or wise on closer look.
A major component of antisemitism in the Christian world has been over accusations of Jews being involved in usury. This has been both a mixed religious-economic antisemitic element. After Jews in Europe had been expelled from various trades, the absence of Christians in the loan-lending sector because of the Catholic Church's opposition to usury coming from it, allowed Jews to enter that trade. However this evoked a new antisemitic campaign. The Catholic Church announced a campaign against usury in the 12th century that regarded usury on the same level of sin as homicide. Thus the issue of usury as a sin was applied as a justification for persecution of Jews on the basis of accusations of Jews committing the sin of usury. The book Anti-Semitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to the Present that is available on Google Books describes this from pages 122 to 124. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.195.248 ( talk) 04:59, 6 April 2014 (UTC)
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Archive 25 | ← | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | Archive 32 | Archive 33 | Archive 34 | Archive 35 |
Could user Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 please clarify what I was plagiarising in my last edit? I properly attributed the source of this information, provided citations to the several sources (which are RS) and I am certainly not attempting to pass this work off as my own. I attempted to alter the wording to greater extent then before, but if this is not sufficient, please let me know. I have asked Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 to discuss this on my talk page but he has so far refused to. Therefore, I will bring the issue up here.( Hyperionsteel ( talk) 09:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC))
The recent additions have been problematic in a number of ways. Firstly changes to sentences have been made without altering the citations which support them. This can create the impression that the citations say something that they do not. Also there is a confusion between two quite separate issues - whether the term is a "misnomer" (arguably that is the case) and whether it therefore should be used differently. user:Galerita's edit summary implies that he thinks the latter ("The references & the title of Wilhelm Marr's pamphlet suggest anti-semitism was chosen to avoid the religious overtones of Judenhass. For NPOV the refs also make abundantly clear there is significant opposition to the narrow defintion of antisemitism". IMO, they don't.) The EB has been cited on this, which is certainly legitimate. But we should avoid confusion. " Anti-Americanism" refers exclusively to the United States of America. It does not, nor has it ever, meant "antipathy to the people of the continent of America". So it is valid to say BOTH "Hugo Chavez has been accused of being anti-American" and "Hugo Chavez is South American". Likewise " Francophobia" is not aversion to the Franks, or Franconians, despite its etymology. This point, has of course been made repeatedly. In my view the EB is simply wrong to use the term "misnomer", but of course it's a respected source, so its position can legitimately be included with regard to due weight. Paul B ( talk) 15:04, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
I undid a recent edit adding a paragraph sourced to a JPost article about the scholar named above criticizing the Bundestag. I don't think I did a good job of clarifying my objection in the edit summary, so I wanted to spell it out here. In particular I think it focuses too much on one person's comments, and even those don't appear to be reported outside the JP. That being said, I think there's a lot of good material from the controversies stemming from the circumcision stuff, and would suggest this article as a better basis for a paragraph. a13ean ( talk) 17:27, 29 October 2012 (UTC)
But Voyage of the Damned isn't mentioned here. It has been also removed from History of antisemitism. Please explain why US antisemitism isn't antisemitism. Xx236 ( talk) 10:01, 14 November 2012 (UTC) See also History of antisemitism in the United States. Xx236 ( talk) 14:02, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
Can this be trimmed of the articles that are already linked in the article body? The section seems pretty bloated. I might come back later but wanted to post here first. Thank you. -- Malerooster ( talk) 03:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
I think the quote from an opinion piece by Mudar Zahran ought to be removed from the Palestinian section of this article. It is interesting in a way but it is not a reliable source (as an opinion piece from a highly contraversial figure) about anything and is only relevant on its own merits rather than as a source. As such it is way too fringe for this main article (which is way to long anyway). As I have said before a long lower quality article undermines the impact of ths topic considerably. -- BozMo talk 13:19, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
Zad
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01:27, 29 November 2012 (UTC)Getting to be too much back and forth. Rather than block anybody, it stops them from discussing, I protected. CambridgeBayWeather ( talk) 07:10, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Zad
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04:27, 30 November 2012 (UTC)This isn't urgent so I'm not making it an edit request, but I'm putting this here so either I or someone else remembers to do it once the page is unprotected - anyway, I'm certain that "apocalyptic antisemitism" is not actually a strain of antisemitism the way economic, racial etc. are, but simply the coincidental usage of the phrase "apocalyptic" to describe antisemitism by two different authors. (The second source cited, the encyclopedia, also uses the phrase "overt antisemitism", but I don't think we would call that a strain either - it is antisemitism that is overt.) Actually, when I noticed that heading, I expected that it would be about something else. – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 08:07, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Copy/pasting from my response on my talk page: As I said in my edit summary, I agree that some mention of orientalism may be warranted in the article - it's just that it should be written up rather than just linked, so that readers have some idea of why it is included. Do you think you [Evildoer187 ]could write up a short paragraph on that? I also don't think the category belongs because so much antisemitism is not about orientalism.
(Also - I question the addition of "diaspora". Was that community the largest diaspora community, or the largest at all??) – Roscelese ( talk ⋅ contribs) 04:31, 24 November 2012 (UTC)
Here's the link again, if you need it: [1] Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:00, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
By the way, what does the size of the diaspora community have to do with anything? It seems irrelevant to me. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:01, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
I typed up a paragraph on Orientalism, as you requested. Here it is:
Ashkenazi Jews, who are of ancestral South West Asian origins and culturally (and often physically) isolated from the indigenous European populations amongst whom they were resident, were widely understood to be an Oriental people in many of the European countries they had settled. One notable example of this is Immanuel Kant, who once referred to the local Jewish population as "Palestinians among us" in his Anthropology from a Pragmatic Point of View book. [2] As such, many of the oldest and longest enduring anti-Jewish stereotypes are rooted in Euro-centric prejudices towards peoples of the East. This trend, now commonly known as Orientalism, is the conception of Asian and North African peoples as mysterious, dishonestly and manipulatively intelligent, overly sensual, warlike, and barbarically loyal to their 'tribe' instead of humanity. Examples of this include Jewish conspiracy theories and myths such as blood libels (even though consumption of blood is not kosher), the Jewish killing of Christ, myths of supernatural Jewish powers, Zionist collaboration with the Nazis, Jewish money stereotypes, fears of a Jewish or Zionist 'plot to control the world' (see also: Protocols of the Elders of Zion) and the general idea that Jews/Zionists are immoral, mysterious, demonic, and often act secretly behind the scenes. [3]
Evildoer187 ( talk) 12:39, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Honestly, I don't think it fits in one specific category because a lot of these categories (cultural, racial, economic, apocalyptic, conspiracy theories, and new antisemitism) have their roots in Euro-centric prejudices against Asian/North African peoples i.e. Orientalism. My suggestion would be to add another category and call it "Orientalism", explaining how a lot of antisemitism is driven by, if not directly rooted in, Orientalist prejudice. Evildoer187 ( talk) 11:46, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
What I just provided is a reliable source. I already explained why on the Jews talk page. Evildoer187 ( talk) 13:30, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Fair enough. I feel it deserves a mention though. Evildoer187 ( talk) 18:47, 1 December 2012 (UTC)
Looking at a recent edit to the article opening, I think that the entire lede here is potentially problematic. Antisemitism (as the article content well demonstrates) is a complex topic that is difficult to define pithily. By trying to have a short once-and-for-all definition, the lede I think over-simplifies it to the point of distorting its meaning. I think the opening definition should be a non-contentious subset of a full definition, that does not give the impression that it is a complete definition; then the reader is invited to discover more in the article body. I think the Anti-Zionism article is a model in doing this (although that article has other problems). The opening words here could be simply "Antisemitism (also spelled anti-semitism or anti-Semitism) is suspicion of, hatred toward, or discrimination against Jews". I think the following list of historical instances, and the discussion of the word's origin would also be better devolved into the article body. Alexbrn ( talk) 05:57, 25 November 2012 (UTC)
Okay, at the risk of getting into a general discussion, consider three (hypothetical) statements: (1) "I have no problem with Jews in themselves, so long as they accept the Holocaust is not historically proven and that those with power use their power to invent history"; (2) "I have no problem with Jews in themselves, but it must be admitted that Israel, with its immense wealth and tentacles extending into Western governments, has too much power and alone among nations pursues inhuman, monstrous policies"; (3) "I have no problem with Jews in themselves, but Palestine must be free - free from the river to the sea". Are any of these antisemitic? According to the ad hoc opening "definition" in this article's opening arguably not. But according to a properly sourced definition, almost certainly so. So at the risk of repeating myself ad nauseam the problem here is that this article is providing an unsourced, unverified definition of antisemitism which is out-of-sync with verifiable sources in such a way that it makes a meaningful difference when it's put to the test. Alexbrn ( talk) 19:39, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
Redheylin — I was being quite straight when I wrote "I believe some people regard …" as this is something I have heard said, and which I repeated to inform the discussion here; as it happens I don't have a personal view on this precise aspect of the debate (and I believe trying to speculate about what editors' personal views are is unhelpful). I wouldn't like to say why the web stats are as they are: Google hit counts don't verify anything clearly one way or the other. I do, however, think the claim than antisemitism encompasses anti-Arab feeling is extraordinary, and so would need extraordinarily convincing sources to have it in the article, and especially in its lede. Having the claim there falls foul of WP:UNDUE and maybe WP:FRINGE – and for that reason (for the purposes of clarifying consensus) I object strongly to your two recent edits that try to place it there. Alexbrn ( talk) 17:53, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
Redheylin, I agree about the "theatre of edit-war" flavour of the lede, and yes - some aspects of your edit are okay, but taken overall I object to it for the reasons i give above. On the topic of personal interests/opinions, I think for Wikipedia in general - and for such a topic as this in particular - there is no value whatsoever in considering them. Editors should resolve just to "not go there"! It seems to me part of the difficulty of this current discussion is there is more than one intersecting discussion going on about the lede. Perhaps a useful consolidation exercise might be to see if we can get consensus at least on where we have got to, and what the issues are before continuing. I think they are:
— am I right in thinking these are the issues being contended? Alexbrn ( talk) 21:19, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
User:Hyperionsteel - thank you for your well-considered answer. I agree that Massad's work, while scholarly and notable, may well be influenced, as a Palestinian, by his views on the state of Israel, but the "antisemitism" issue is not merely his idea, nor always related to Israel, the founding of which it precedes so, while I accept your personal view is sincerely held, it is no more than a personal view. For my part I'd not venture to base the entire article on his work, but I would have you consider the following sources, all freely used in the article; Ha'aretz, The Jerusalem Post, The Stephen Roth Institute, The Vidal Sassoon International Center for the Study of Antisemitism, The Holocaust History Project, The Anti-Defamation League - and ask you to consider whether or not all Wikipedia editors might accept these sources, among others, as clearly neutral. If not it is up to us to achieve neutrality, first by accurate use of cited sources, second by taking due cognisance of the widespread nature of the debate ("We have the "does anti-Arab hate = antisemitism" issue all the time") and lastly but not least, to take care to balance non-neutral sources appropriately, for which last purpose Massad is sufficiently reliable and notable. It seems to me that these three things are not being done, and so neutrality has not been achieved. The only other possibility is to remove ALL aligned and interested sources. Redheylin ( talk) 00:33, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
I agree with Redheylin's observations that Hyperionsteel's response, which is in effect saying "Massad's use of the word can't be considered useful because he is an antisemite himself," is not a strong argument, as it's an ad hominem. To answer the question "What should be in the article, and what emphasis should the article give?" I'd rather look for consensus across the best available reliable secondary and tertiary sources. I looked at a few dozen search results for "antisemitism" in Google Scholar and Highbeam, and reviewed the use of the word by secondary and tertiary sources. My observation is that academic reliable sources overwhelmingly consider antisemitism to be, as
Encyclopedia Britannica puts it, "hostility toward or discrimination against Jews as a religious or racial group." EB goes out of its way to say "Arabs and other peoples are also Semites, and yet they are not the targets of anti-Semitism as it is usually understood." The other sources bore this out. The application of 'antisemitism' to groups other than Jews, and to Arabs in particular, does happen, but is a highly unusual use of the term, to the point of being a striking rhetorical device used to make a point when it does happen. Massad's article is a case in point. Redheylin does have a point that the article should mention this, but in line with
WP:DUE weight it should be only briefly in the body of the article, perhaps a sentence or two. The sources do not at all support having this use of the term take up half of the first paragraph of the lead, as was proposed in the edit under discussion. Personally, I don't see the sources supporting a mention of this highly unusual use of the word in the lead at all, but could be convinced otherwise if sufficient high-quality secondary sourcing were found for it.
Zad
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01:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Roscolese, I use the dictionary I have. That's what it says. It is a definition that does not contradict the rest of the article. On the other hand the following statements are contradicted by Bein and other modern authorities;
The contradiction is with the following, already in the text;
- I pointed this out the other day. No response.
The following quote, used several times, is misquoted by removing the rider "for the purposes of this report";
The following, already in the text, is contradicted in the lede and elsewhere;
Finally, the account of Steinschneider I added is far more refined and better-sourced.
Roscolese, I take your remark about "cherry-picking" as an accusation of bad faith, and ask you to modify or to withdraw it, please.
Both of you, I draw your attention again to; Wikipedia:ARBPIA "All articles related to the Arab-Israeli conflict *broadly construed* are under WP:1RR (one revert per editor per article per 24 hour period). *When in doubt, assume it is related*
I look forward to a point for point justification of all material you have reverted. Thanks. Redheylin ( talk) 05:20, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
Hello Alex, thank you for responding. Now, point for point! Can you point out where the edit you reverted "extended (the article) to encompass anti-Arabism" and "attempted to decide an ongoing discussion in a certain way"? And can you explain why you reintroduced the objective failings of the article I listed above? Especially, why did you remove the clarifications "normally/usually" and "for the purposes of this report", which you yourself have said are better representations of cited sources? This, again, is a matter of fact, and nobody has contradicted you - they can not! Is it OK to revert without discussing? Is it OK to revert without even reading? Redheylin ( talk) 06:42, 29 November 2012 (UTC)
The recent discussions about the definition of antisemitism and how it is described in the lede, has furthered my conviction that the Article currently does this poorly. I think the "heat" of the discussion is a symptom of that: because there is no authoritative definition given, there is a risk of other, dubious/fringe definitions claiming a right to be here. As editors here have been pointing out, there is a vast range of opinion on how antisemitism is defined. The problem then is how we as editors pick and choose among these, to decide which to include, and how to synthesize them, while maintaining a visible and defensible NPOV. What we really need is some "super-survey" of antisemitism, which provides an authoritative distillation which we can cite. Well, I believe just such a thing exists: the so-called "EUMC" definition which came out of the European Forum on Antisemitism (now the Union Agency for Fundamental Rights). This piece of work aimed at drafting "a single, comprehensive definition for use in the field". The working definition is available here (and is of course, already mentioned in this Article).
Using this document as a gold-standard source, I think we have a way to address the question above of whether prejudice against non-Jews counts as antisemitism. I propose that since the EUMC definition casts antisemitism purely as a phenomenon involving Jews, Jewishness, Jewish institutions, and the Jewish state, anything which falls outside this can be considered as WP:FRINGE. This is not to say that such definitions are not worthy of a proportionate (i.e. brief) mention in the body of the article, but should probably be identified as minority views. I further think that the article should use the EUMC definition as its opening words: “Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.” This is an up-to-date view which has been synthesized by experts, and so beats (I suggest) anything which we as Wikipedia editors might synthesize ourselves. Alexbrn ( talk) 09:19, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
Sure. It's quite rare, I think, to find much scholarly work that evaluates definitions such as this; they tend instead to restate it and analyse its real-world reception. Nevertheless, here are some pertinent snippets from books (I can't search journals just now).
I'm sorry Redheylin, but it's not clear to me what your current proposal is. Could you please briefly list your proposed "before" and "after" texts? Jayjg (talk) 02:29, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
Zad
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17:13, 3 December 2012 (UTC)I have just looked at the cited report [5] to try to find why in the article the UK summary on current situation says "It found a reversal of this progress since 2000." I do not think this phrase is remotely representative of the report which concludes that although the UK remains "one of the least antisemitic societies in the world" "there are greater fears now about antisemitism than there have been for many decades". The report endorses both statements as currently true and does not use the terms of the summary in the article which imply (offensively I might add) that the UK (which has been pretty multi-cultural for centuries) has recently ceased to be predominantly inclusive and has recently ceased to be one of the least AS countries in the world. -- BozMo talk 17:26, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
Semites are not exclusives Jewish; therefore, it is crucial to detach the word 'Jew' from the introductory paragraph unless one [editor] was to name all other Semitic peoples alongside the Jews. It is within the best interest of all other Semitic people that you do not make antisemitism exclusively about the Jewish religion. 75.32.244.23 ( talk) 01:52, 11 December 2012 (UTC)
Hi
I hope I'm not the only one...but I find the "Current situation - Europe" quite lacking...there are literally no South- and Eastern Europe countries. Can't we just replace sweden or norway with one?
Regards
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk)
09:44, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
e.g.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/greenslade/2006/jun/25/toppolishtvpostforrightwi
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/6266_13.htm
these are from the AS in Europe article
and: i was inclined to replace because the article is quite LONG (maybe own article?)...and by leaving south&east europe unmentioned, it is unintentionally implied that there is NO current AS there
"AS is not a universal truth occureing everywhere or even in most places it is something which happens sometimes"
I would claim, that is a really remarkable thing to say :-( (for the western world and the near east)
regards
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk)
17:34, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
it's neither a conspiracy nor is an mirror image of anything
it's a specific form of racism, with a despicable past, and the existence of it in europe is (according to the numbers) more or less not over
"In the UK there is a lot more hostility towards the Church than there is antisemitism (and that's still not much)"
I think sometimes its better not to show to much of yourself in wp...and I don't think it's probable that you'll find any studies that are confirming this observation.
regards
Paranoid Android1208 ( talk) 14:43, 18 December 2012 (UTC)
well, I'm a firm believer that you should thoroughly read what you post...so lets fisk this "starting point" and your interpretation of it a little
e.g. Introduction section 1:
"The inquiry was established to investigate the belief, widely held within the Jewish community, that levels of antisemitism in Britain are rising. Following an investigation, we have reached the troubling conclusion that this belief is JUSTIFIED." (my emphasis)
and the definition of AS in the report: which (as one can see) is of AS incidents(verbal,physical and things like boycotts)...not attitudes and/or ANY numbers(%ages) to them.
Summary:
"UNTIL recently, the prevailing opinion both within the Jewish community and beyond _WAS_ that antisemitism HAD receded to the point that it existed only on the margins of society. However, the EVIDENCE we received INDICATES that there has been a REVERSAL of this progress since the year 2000, which has created anxiety and concern within the Jewish community."(my emphasis)
this report is 6 years old...does anything suggest that it may have(/has?) got better?
"In his oral evidence, the Chief Rabbi stated: “If you were to ask me is Britain an antisemitic society, the answer is manifestly and obviously no. It is one of the least antisemitic societies in the world.”2 However, the President of the Board of Deputies of British Jews told us, “There is probably a greater feeling of discomfort, greater concerns, greater fears now about antisemitism than there have been for many decades.”3 Having considered all of the evidence submitted, we are of the opinion that there is much truth in both of these ostensibly contradictory views."
somehow you omitted the 2n and 3rd part.... ;-) *I_assume_good_faith*
ps: this is getting waaaaaaaayy to forum-ish...which is (as we all know) contrary to the WP-policy
Regards
Paranoid Android1208 (
talk)
10:44, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
Does the Dreyfus affair really merit inclusion in a list of "extreme persecution" in the third para? Isn't notable more important than exteme? -- BozMo talk 18:26, 10 January 2013 (UTC)
In the section "Ancient world", the text '... Philo of Alexandria describes an attack on Jews in Alexandria in 38 CE in which thousands of Jews died ...' appears twice and should be redacted. Grimne ( talk)
This article is way too long and quite frankly undeserving of its own separate article. It should be broken up and added to the various articles on different types of prejudice. It is also one-sided and biased, a complete violation of neutrality rules.
(rant snipped)
... I can't be alone here thinking this. My talk comments have been deleted twice which is proof in itself.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.228.228.157 ( talk) 22:21, 30 March 2013 (UTC)
shouldn't this be part of prejudice and discrimination category? 24.94.251.19 ( talk) 06:38, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
The article is effective at describing one theory behind German usage of the term "anti-Semitic" during WWII. What isn't clear is what "anti-Semitic" means in modern usage, and since none of us live in WWII Germany the current description of the word's use is meaningful only as a historical footnote. Modern usage sometimes means one is against Jews the religious group, other times Jews the racial group, other times Talmudic Jews the political movement, and still other times refers to anyone who disagrees with mainstream historical accounts of the Holocaust, notes the relevance of Jews in international finance, etc. So, what does the term actually mean today? It would appear (based on modern usage) that it means anyone who disagrees with a mainstream doxy relating to Jewish heritage in any form. As such, it is a rather meaningless term, since anyone could simultaneously have his/her five best friends be fervently Jewish people and have no qualms about them, and yet be correctly labeled "anti-Semitic" if he/she disagreed with some detail of the historical account of the holocaust, the precepts of the Talmudic political movement, had noted Jewish financial influence/power, etc. I propose that an area be added that discusses this dilemma, since "anti-Semitic" in modern usage frequently means anything but hatred for actual everyday Jewish people. Perhaps the fact that a Jew who disagrees with any such mainstream doxy would also be "anti-Semitic" most aptly reveals the absurdity of the word's modern usage. A discussion of this paradox certainly deserves a place in the article. 67.235.207.140 ( talk) 16:38, 23 April 2013 (UTC)
I doubt that we can come up with a definition that will fit all the ways that the term is used today. The person I described about used the term to describe anyone who disagreed with her about what was basically a political stance, whether they were Jewish or not. Carptrash ( talk) 17:05, 24 April 2013 (UTC)
Ladies and gentlemen. Could we leave both horses and gavels outside? Carptrash ( talk) 20:08, 25 April 2013 (UTC)
Correct me if I'm wrong, but if we are superimposing the notions "semitic languages" and "semitic people", the category becomes extremely large. Involving people and ethnic groups of muslim and even Christian religion. Perhaps although widely used, it's not altogether correct to infer that anti-Jewish means anti-Semitic. Supermaverick ( talk) 14:30, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Is there a unanimous consensus about this word? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.145.73.26 ( talk) 16:02, 14 May 2013 (UTC)
I have antisemitic feelings simply because Jews have discriminated against me, a non-Jew, "because of my heritage." Is the subject of Jewish discrimination against non-Jews a forbidden topic? -- Shortchuck ( talk) 12:04, 17 May 2013 (UTC)
I've removed some material recently added to the article by an IP editor.
[7] The gist of the material was essentially that Jews in late 19th and early 20th century Germany were "overrepresented" in the middle and upper classes and in certain professions, and that these were "empirical economic factors" that cause antisemitism by "creat[ing] aggravation towards Jews by non-Jews in Germany especially during economic crises". Moreover, the choice of material cited seems intended to "prove" that this was indeed the case.
If this is the thrust of Brustein's argument, then the insertion appears to give
WP:UNDUE prominence to
unusual claims, and essentially
blames German antisemitism on the Jews. Moreover, I'm not at all sure that this accurately represents Brustein's views; the publisher's synopsis of Brustein's book says that "Brustein proposes that European anti-Semitism flowed from religious, racial, economic, and political roots, which became enflamed by economic distress, rising Jewish immigration, and socialist success", which is not the impression one gets from this insertion. In any event, the material obviously gives undue prominence to one author's theories about one specific Jewish population in one specific country during a relatively brief time period; there's no way so much space should be devoted to it, and certainly not any space at all in the article lead.
Jayjg
(talk)
17:56, 26 May 2013 (UTC)
Great picture. I'm not suggesting removing it. However I just finished reading a history of the Second World War ("Moral Combat" by British historian Michael Burleigh) and I somehow feel compelled to mention that 3 million Soviet POWs of all ethnicities died in German captivity during the war, mostly from starvation and freezing being kept in outdoor enclosures or riding in the same type of railway freight cars that Jewish victims of the Holocaust did. Borock ( talk) 16:28, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
Unless I missed it the word "democracy" does not appear in the article. Why not? Borock ( talk) 16:43, 10 June 2013 (UTC)
I'm starting a discussion here to see if Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence should be added to the "see also" section. User:Scott Illini boldly added it, I reverted it, and then it has gone back and forth with me starting a discussion here to avoid an edit war and determine if there is a consensus to add the link.
IMO, I don't see the connection. The article mainly refers to a 2005 paper which makes a passin reference "laws [that] barred Ashkenazi Jews" as one of the many conditions that led to the paper's conclusions that Ashkenazi Jews have higher verbal and mathematical intelligence. I appreciate that WP:SEEALSO allows for links to articles that are tangentially related, but ultimately it must be relevant - and I'm just not seeing it with this one. A passing reference to antisemitism does not automatically make that article relevant to this article. Singularity42 ( talk) 11:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The first two paragraphs of this section make very sweeping generalisations: a) re eugenics "which categorized non-Europeans as inferior". I'm not at all sure this is true - certainly not of everyone who 'followed' eugenics. This really needs to be more specific. b) "With the decreasing role of religion in public life tempering religious antisemitism" appears to be nonsense; if anything, religion played a leading role in antisemitism, witness, for instance, the Spanish Inquisition. I'm inclined to cut that clause altogether, unless someone can give a scholarly citation to justify it. In any case, both these contentions need citations or they will have to be amended/cut. Alfietucker ( talk) 18:36, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Similar to Petliura's self-declared Cossacks the majority of Khmelnitzky's rebels were not Cossacks at all. Contrary to Petliura's people there were Cossacks and Jews in significant numbers among Khmelnitzky's people only. The massacres were made by the mob. Crimean Karaites were Khmelnitzky's allies. Don Cossacks waged a war against Khmelnitzky's allies during Russian-Polish alliance against Khmelnitzky. Many Cossacks of Ukraine if not a majority supported the opponent of Khmelniztky prince Vishnevetzky , whose Cossack soldiers were the major anti-Khmelnitzky's force. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.70.224.196 ( talk) 20:26, 12 September 2013 (UTC)
Need no western perspectives. That doesnt mean western views of how others see it, but other cviews of the phenemenon. Semitic includes non-jewish people.( Lihaas ( talk) 15:28, 1 October 2013 (UTC)).
This is a false statement. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zidovi ( talk • contribs) 07:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
I deleted the following sentence:
because it is both uncited and biased. For one thing, the use of the word "propaganda" has a negative connotation and implies that anti-Zionism is based on lies and misinformation. The sentence also implicitly equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Jadhachem ( talk) 03:16, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
I created Adam Wiercinski to document the recent anti-Semitism case that made all the headlines. Feel free to contribute to the article. Tkuvho ( talk) 08:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
In the past few years there has been a major shift in Christian Biblical scholarship. Leading Biblical scholars such as Ehrman, Casey, Edwards have now taken the position that Jesus was a Jew and that the historical roots of Christianity must be seen in a Jewish context. This scholarship has sparked debate for some still hold the position that Jesus was a Greek speaking Galilean whose teachings were anti-Jewish. (See the heated debates at the Gospel of Matthew and the Oral gospel traditions.)
Last month, one of the world's leading historians on Early Christianity released his latest work. James D. G. Dunn, The Oral Gospel Tradition, Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing, 2013. argues that the assumption that Jesus was not Jewish has been a real stumbling block for Biblical scholars. If anything, more serious has been what might be called “institutional anti-Semitism, or more accurately anti-Judaism, which for so long disfigured Christian theology, including NT scholarship." The so called mainline or classic position of Ernest Renan, who wrote: "Fundamentally there was nothing Jewish about Jesus" is mistaken and encapsulates "Christianity's historic denigration of Judaism."
The truth is Christianity has been anti Jewish and Christian scholarship has failed to be "Christian" in its treatment of Jews. This can be seen in the disparagement of the Hebrew Gospel which is viewed as little more than a Jewish Bastardwerk. The mainline position of 20th Century scholars bordered on antisemitism. The Deutsche Christen movement produced the Theologisches Wörterbuch zum Neuen Testament, still the standard Theological Dictionary of the New Testament found in theological libraries and used by students all over the world as if it were nothing but a standard work of reference.
Nor should it be imagined that such bias was isolated to scholars who fought for Nazi Germany for even Bultmann was tainted by the effect of working in a German environment in which Jewishness was so unwelcome. Google Link Nor should it be imagined that such anti-Jewish sentiment was isolated to scholars coming out of Germany. Google Link. The Jewish tradition has generally been viewed pejoratively and judged inferior by many other scholars instrumental in the formation theories regarding the Synoptic tradition. Google Link. One must take care to distinguish between Biblical Scholarship based on reliable historical evidence and “the age-long, inbred, instinctive Jew-hatred” of the West.
Volume 20 of Studies in Jewish History and Culture, BRILL, 2009. -
Edwards, Casey, Ehrman etc all line up behind Dunn. Spatjudentum is not the an acceptable default setting for Christianity. Jesus was Jewish! So were his early followers along with the early Oral tradition and the first written Gospel accounts of his life. Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Dunn argues to understand the historical roots of Christianity one must look at Second Temple Judaism along with the impact of the destruction of the Temple in the year 70, for Christianity began as an enthusiastic Jewish sect. In other words we must study how the traditions of Jesus, might have functioned in first-century Palestine.
There is a growing number of historians that believe:
Not only do the Gospel of Matthew and the Oral gospel traditions need to be updated, but eventually the section on Religious antisemitism. Ret.Prof ( talk) 00:21, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
Interesting. Dunn elaborates by writing If anything, more serious has been what might be called “the institutional anti- Semitism,” or more accurately anti-Judaism, which for so long disfigured Christian theology, including NT scholarship. True it seems a bit harsh but it is supported by Bart Ehrman who writes, "Christianity has by its very nature always been anti-Jewish". However I will keep an open mind. Thanks for you input. Cheers - Ret.Prof ( talk) 21:00, 18 November 2013 (UTC)
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On 3 August 2013, this page was damaged and not restored. A very important reference was removed pertaining to the etymology of the word anti-Semitism:
Alex Bein is the Chief Librarian of Israel, and his research pushes back the invention of the term by over a decade. The removal of this reference could be due to political motives. Regardless, this is one of the most important pieces of information that used to be in the Etymology section. Its removal is a complete mystery.
24.165.27.55 ( talk) 19:07, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Definitely this needs to be researched. People don't start to hate other people for nothing. So why the Jews are hated everywhere? Maybe some Jews could answer this - what they think is wrong with their behavior that causes anti-Semitism all around the globe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.139.66.194 ( talk) 11:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Jpgordon and Rainbowofpeace are obviously correct. But please note that the very question asked by this anonymous IP user is wrong. It was implying that only "Jews are hated everywhere", which is not true by any means. Despite the fact that Jewish people are also loved and admired by so many people around the world, just look at these examples: Christians are hated in the Arab world nearly just as much, if not even more in some areas. Anti-Islam hate (Islamophobia) is a fast growing phenomenon today too. Blacks are also hated by millions of racists everywhere. As are Asian people, Hispanics, disabled people, and, unfortunately, many more. Even certain countries are hated, such as North Korea, Afghanistan, etc.! In short, every human being on this earth is hated..
Now, as disrespectful as this IP user was in asking that question this way, the causes section should indeed be expanded. Because just like the hate directed at these different ethnic/racial/religious groups I briefly discussed above, there are various reasons for the phenomenon of anti-Jewish sentiments as well. I was actually planning on expanding that section myself some time when I have time, but if anyone would like to go ahead and do this, please do. A few well known and notable academics, books, and writers have examined the reasons for antisemitism: See
Lastly, a few of these sources may not be reliable, but I'd encourage using them to find some relevant and useful information first, and then continue from there. Regards, Shalom11111 ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Antisemitism is considered racism because Jews are considered an ethnoreligious group. Racism is discrimination based on someone's race, ethnicity or nationality. Race itself is a word without a very clear definition and it is completely unclear whether Jews (or anyone for that matter) is a race or not because of extreme variance among the defintions of race. Islamophobia is called racism several times throughout its article with no explanation to why it is called racism even though Muslims are clearly only a religious group. I therefore think we should make it clear in the article that the reason antisemitism is considered racism is because Jews are an ethnic group.- Rainbowofpeace ( talk) 02:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Definitely this needs to be researched. People don't start to hate other people for nothing. So why the Jews are hated everywhere? Maybe some Jews could answer this - what they think is wrong with their behavior that causes anti-Semitism all around the globe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.139.66.194 ( talk) 11:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)
Jpgordon and Rainbowofpeace are obviously correct. But please note that the very question asked by this anonymous IP user is wrong. It was implying that only "Jews are hated everywhere", which is not true by any means. Despite the fact that Jewish people are also loved and admired by so many people around the world, just look at these examples: Christians are hated in the Arab world nearly just as much, if not even more in some areas. Anti-Islam hate (Islamophobia) is a fast growing phenomenon today too. Blacks are also hated by millions of racists everywhere. As are Asian people, Hispanics, disabled people, and, unfortunately, many more. Even certain countries are hated, such as North Korea, Afghanistan, etc.! In short, every human being on this earth is hated..
Now, as disrespectful as this IP user was in asking that question this way, the causes section should indeed be expanded. Because just like the hate directed at these different ethnic/racial/religious groups I briefly discussed above, there are various reasons for the phenomenon of anti-Jewish sentiments as well. I was actually planning on expanding that section myself some time when I have time, but if anyone would like to go ahead and do this, please do. A few well known and notable academics, books, and writers have examined the reasons for antisemitism: See
Lastly, a few of these sources may not be reliable, but I'd encourage using them to find some relevant and useful information first, and then continue from there. Regards, Shalom11111 ( talk) 00:24, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I have added a POV-tag to the section about the situation in Malmö. This belongs to Antisemitism in Sweden and just copying it from there to any article about the same topic is not right. Summarize the content instead. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 10:51, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I have added a POV-tag to the section about the situation in Malmö. This belongs to Antisemitism in Sweden and just copying it from there to any article about the same topic is not right. Summarize the content instead. -- IRISZOOM ( talk) 10:51, 15 February 2014 (UTC)
I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Antisemitism's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.
Reference named "JCPA":
I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT ⚡ 17:33, 26 February 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that the definition of Antisemitism being racism against jews, is altogether correct. Yes it does mean that, but jews aren't the only semitic people. Wikipedia has a page about semitic people ( /info/en/?search=Semitic_people) which shows that. Anti-semitism means anti-anything-semitic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ninzhan5 ( talk • contribs) 23:51, 27 February 2014 (UTC) Ninzhan5 ( talk) 23:55, 27 February 2014 (UTC)
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128.32.146.11 ( talk) 22:52, 26 March 2014 (UTC)
Why here 'pseudo-scientific' and not scientific theory that has been discredited? That sanitation of the facts is dangerous for future such theories will have the unblemished name of science at their back. The euphemism, pseudo-science, has a manifestly good intent, yet it is not judicious or wise on closer look.
A major component of antisemitism in the Christian world has been over accusations of Jews being involved in usury. This has been both a mixed religious-economic antisemitic element. After Jews in Europe had been expelled from various trades, the absence of Christians in the loan-lending sector because of the Catholic Church's opposition to usury coming from it, allowed Jews to enter that trade. However this evoked a new antisemitic campaign. The Catholic Church announced a campaign against usury in the 12th century that regarded usury on the same level of sin as homicide. Thus the issue of usury as a sin was applied as a justification for persecution of Jews on the basis of accusations of Jews committing the sin of usury. The book Anti-Semitism: Myth and Hate from Antiquity to the Present that is available on Google Books describes this from pages 122 to 124. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.12.195.248 ( talk) 04:59, 6 April 2014 (UTC)