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This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
The statement Alexis's brother Richmond Arquette posted to Facebook seems to say that Alexis detransitioned at some point prior to death. Richmond repeatedly uses male pronouns. Not sure how we should handle this information.
Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis, passed this morning September 11, at 12:32 am. He was surrounded by all of his brothers and sisters, one of his nieces and several other loved ones...
https://www.yahoo.com/style/actress-alexis-arquette-died-47-192600561.html Dansan99 ( talk) 21:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
https://www.facebook.com/richmond.arquette?fref=nf Dansan99 ( talk) 02:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Our sister, Alexis Arquette, passed away this morning, September 11th, 2016....
@ Ditch Fisher: missed ping, see below. -- DHeyward ( talk) 03:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC) @ Sundayclose, Irn, Dansan99, and Partyclams: Alexis stopped identifying as a transgender woman about the time Caitlyn Jenner publicly announced her gender identity. Story here quotes Alexis as “not transgender anymore” but Arquette used a term "gender suspicious" to describe a more fluid identity than male or female. Pronouns are probably not as important as just correcting her gender identity from transgender woman to gender fluid. I know there are lots of gender fluid pronouns but I haven't found a source that says she used anything other than "she" and "her." Gender fluid is as valid as transgender and that misgendering someone who is genderfluid as transgender woman should be avoided. I think it's incorrect to say she "detransitioned" or that her gender "changed back to male" since it didn't, rather just document her gender identity and expression through her life. I do think we have enough sources to change "transgender woman" and "female" to "genderfluid" and include her personal definition of "gender suspicious." I personally don't like statements like the one in the article that say she "transitioned from male to female" and would change it to when she publicly started identifying as a woman and then also when she publicly started identifying as genderfluid. Also, I would be very reluctant to use her gender fluid identity as being "conflicting reports" for the purpose of MOS:GENDERID. Her brother explained it in enough detail and it matches statements made by the family and Alexis. I think we should continue using "she/her" barring another source or work them out of the article, we should stop referring to her as a transgender woman except as a historical period, and identify her as genderfluid in places where her gender is mentioned. Likewise, she should not be referred to as male or "detransitioned." Since gendered terms are used in the lead, it probably makes sense to add something like " genderfluid actress." I don't know if we have specific categories that distinguish genderqueer identities from binary transgender categories. -- DHeyward ( talk) 03:09, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Rewrite the article to use no pronouns (where it makes sense) or singular they instead of masculine or feminine pronouns. -- AntiCompositeNumber ( Leave a message) 20:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
No apology needed; I was trying to be humorous. I don't mind how you wrote it (you missed a few pronouns BTW). But who is going to keep it pronoun free and well written? In any event, regardless of whether the article currently has pronouns, I still think we need to make a decision about whether the article should be an exception to MOS:GENDERID. That will help determine the future direction of the article. Thanks for your efforts in revising the article. Sundayclose ( talk) 00:43, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
latest expressed gender self-identificationwas "gender suspicious" - sometimes a man and sometimes a woman, depending on how she dressed, according to her brother David, as reported by various sources. Richmond's initial statement reflected that complexity ("became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis"). From this, it seems pretty clear to me that she no longer identified as transgender. (David literally said that.) So it's not about making an exception to MOS:GENDERID; it's about properly implementing it. However, just because she no longer identified as a transgender woman doesn't mean that it would be wrong to refer to her with feminine pronouns or call her an actress; it could mean that it might be better to avoid that if possible, but we don't have clear guidance on that. (When people come out as genderqueer, they tend to give clear guidance on this, stating their preferred pronouns. Arquette doesn't seem to have cared much either way.) -- Irn ( talk) 17:39, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that we are digressing in our efforts to construct this article based on how/when/why certain pronouns are preferred. If the pronoun is ambiguous or uncertain, then let's just write around it. Change he/she to "Arquette" and brother/sister to "sibling." etc, and be done with it. Ditch ∝ 01:26, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"Brother David Arquette said that they were "gender suspicious", and" Is this meant to mean that both David and Alexis Arquette are/were gender suspicious? Or, is this an attempt to use a plural pronoun (and verb) to substitute for a gender-neutral singular pronoun? Why not "Brother David Arquette said that Alexis was "gender suspicious, and..."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.14.77.222 ( talk) 23:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
"Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis, passed this morning September 11, at 12:32 am," surrounded by loved ones, Richmond Arquette shared in a Facebook post. "We were playing music for him, and he passed during David Bowie's Starman. As per his wishes, we cheered at the moment that he transitioned to another dimension."
[1]. Are we gendering this person properly per MOS? It appears from the statement that Alexis identified as male at the end but I'm not sure how to convey a life of such a complex identity. The family sttement is binary. Do we have any sources that are not binary in nature or that support feminine pronouns? Arquette's family used masculine pronouns and identity in their statement. --
DHeyward (
talk) 07:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
In this edit, Partyclams removed the line “She was well known for her transition from male to female, and for supporting other people making similar transitions.” with the edit summary “Trivial info removal and redundancy cleanup”. In the same edit, Partyclams also removed the line “Arquette was a vocal supporter of other transgender people, including Chaz Bono, who transitioned from female to male between 2008 and 2010.” As far as I can tell, her transition was quite possibly the most notable aspect of her life, more than her relatively minor acting roles, and I think it belongs in the lead. I don't know how well known she was for her trans activism, so maybe that part shouldn't be in the lead, but I certainly don't think her support for Chaz Bono is “trivial”, and I don't think it should be removed from the article. -- Irn ( talk) 23:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
I can see why the fact that she was surrounded by family at her time of death and them singing “Starman” might seem trivial, but I think it's more important than it might appear. This sort of detail actually gives a lot of information regarding the circumstances of her death. We don't know how she died or what she died from, but knowing that she was serenaded by her family at the moment she died gives us a lot of useful context. For example, it shows that her death was anticipated by her family who had clearly accepted it before it happened, so it wasn't a surprise or a sudden tragedy. -- Irn ( talk) 23:40, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Is there a better source than People magazine for this? The one listed cites People magazine and that it will update when further info is available (which may have happened?), but I'd think People magazine is not a RS. Hollth ( talk) 07:40, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I added the cause of death as being from cardiac arrest after heart infection, and long-term diagnosis of HIV. @ Irn: removed it and said "see talk" but there is nothing on the talk page about this. I don't think HIV should be treated as something shameful or controversial in this day and age, especially in someone who is deceased. The same source is already used in the infobox to indicate cause of death was cardiac arrest, and other sources are reporting the same info from the coroner. I don't think it's right to remove it from the death info while we have the happy little Starman detail. This is not an obituary but an encyclopedia. Cause of death is cause of death and should be included when available. —Мандичка YO 😜 15:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Having HIV is not shameful. I think we were just waiting for a more reliable source. Initials reports sounded like gossip. Since TMZ dug up the death certificate, that's pretty solid. 63.92.248.121 ( talk) 19:51, 22 September 2016 (UTC) Darwin
The brother's statement reads: "Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis, passed this morning September 11, at 12:32 am. Is this accurate or is this a typo? The clause that reads who became our brother Alexis is listed (repeated) twice. I am not sure if that was some intentional repetitive message or a typo. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 03:39, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
I have just made this edit to the xHamster page about their purchase and destruction of a sex tape alleged to show Alexis Arquette. xHamster's reasoning was to avoid Arquette being smeared. Not sure if this is worth adding to her bio, but I mention it for others to consider. Note that this Huffington Post piece also describes her death as from HIV/AIDS complications. EdChem ( talk) 12:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
There's nothing other than the trans stuff. There's no mention of her sexual orientation, relationships, friendships etc. Jim Michael ( talk) 16:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
There's also no mention of Arquette's "born as" name, either. Before Arquette transitioned or felt a member of the opposite gender "she" was a "he." Such as childhood. Not very true to the person's entire history. 97.85.91.212 ( talk) 21:30, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
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Alexis Arquette began identifying again as a man before her death. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/final-days-alexis-arquette-a-928507
This should be noted in Arquette's personal info and journey with transgender life. i.e. From the article above, "Living in low-income housing and resistant to treating a rapidly progressing HIV, the transgender trailblazer, who died Sunday at age 47, spent her last days living as a man and struggling to make ends meet. Says one of her closest friends: "She was rightfully angry that she should have had the success and notoriety that comes with being such a talented actor and being born into a family that presents the opportunity."
173.71.97.28 ( talk) 18:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
I just noticed that the infobox says "aortic dissection" while the prose doesn't mention that at all. Can someone more acquainted with this subject reconcile this? Thanks. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 19:06, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Source: MSN
Patricia Arquette was disappointed to find that her sister, Alexis, was not recognized in the In Memoriam portion of the 89th Academy Awards.
The Oscar-winning actress spoke with ET's Carly Steel at Vanity Fair's Oscars after-party on Sunday night about Alexis -- who died on Sept. 11 at 47-- being snubbed at the awards show. "Alexis was a great actor, and had 70 credits, and was really brave to live her truth as a trans woman, and they didn't include her in the memorial," Patricia said of her sibling. "I think that was a real slight to the trans community, especially at this time, when trans kids can't even go to the bathroom in the United States of America at school. It says a lot about the lack of inclusion." "Trans kids can really never look at anyone and see their heroes, and I think that was a big mistake," the 48-year-old actress continued.
Read more: http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/oscars/exclusive-patricia-arquette-calls-alexis-oscars-in-memoriam-snub-a-real-slight-to-the-trans-community/ar-AAnzQNL?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.51.116 ( talk) 18:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
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Please add the categories Category:20th-century American LGBT people and Category:21st-century American LGBT people. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 01:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
Alexis Arquette article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
Archives: 1 |
![]() | A news item involving Alexis Arquette was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the In the news section on 12 September 2016. | ![]() |
![]() | This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
![]() | This article has been viewed enough times in a single week to appear in the
Top 25 Report. The week in which this happened:
|
![]() | The
contentious topics procedure applies to this page. This page is related to gender-related disputes or controversies or people associated with them, which has been
designated as a contentious topic. Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
This article should adhere to the gender identity guideline because it contains material about one or more trans women. Precedence should be given to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, anywhere in article space, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources. Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the pronouns, possessive adjectives, and gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman") that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. Some people go by singular they pronouns, which are acceptable for use in articles. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise. Former, pre-transition names may only be included if the person was notable while using the name; outside of the main biographical article, such names should only appear once, in a footnote or parentheses.If material violating this guideline is repeatedly inserted, or if there are other related issues, please report the issue to the LGBT WikiProject, or, in the case of living people, to the BLP noticeboard. |
The statement Alexis's brother Richmond Arquette posted to Facebook seems to say that Alexis detransitioned at some point prior to death. Richmond repeatedly uses male pronouns. Not sure how we should handle this information.
Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis, passed this morning September 11, at 12:32 am. He was surrounded by all of his brothers and sisters, one of his nieces and several other loved ones...
https://www.yahoo.com/style/actress-alexis-arquette-died-47-192600561.html Dansan99 ( talk) 21:36, 11 September 2016 (UTC)
https://www.facebook.com/richmond.arquette?fref=nf Dansan99 ( talk) 02:05, 12 September 2016 (UTC)Our sister, Alexis Arquette, passed away this morning, September 11th, 2016....
@ Ditch Fisher: missed ping, see below. -- DHeyward ( talk) 03:14, 14 September 2016 (UTC) @ Sundayclose, Irn, Dansan99, and Partyclams: Alexis stopped identifying as a transgender woman about the time Caitlyn Jenner publicly announced her gender identity. Story here quotes Alexis as “not transgender anymore” but Arquette used a term "gender suspicious" to describe a more fluid identity than male or female. Pronouns are probably not as important as just correcting her gender identity from transgender woman to gender fluid. I know there are lots of gender fluid pronouns but I haven't found a source that says she used anything other than "she" and "her." Gender fluid is as valid as transgender and that misgendering someone who is genderfluid as transgender woman should be avoided. I think it's incorrect to say she "detransitioned" or that her gender "changed back to male" since it didn't, rather just document her gender identity and expression through her life. I do think we have enough sources to change "transgender woman" and "female" to "genderfluid" and include her personal definition of "gender suspicious." I personally don't like statements like the one in the article that say she "transitioned from male to female" and would change it to when she publicly started identifying as a woman and then also when she publicly started identifying as genderfluid. Also, I would be very reluctant to use her gender fluid identity as being "conflicting reports" for the purpose of MOS:GENDERID. Her brother explained it in enough detail and it matches statements made by the family and Alexis. I think we should continue using "she/her" barring another source or work them out of the article, we should stop referring to her as a transgender woman except as a historical period, and identify her as genderfluid in places where her gender is mentioned. Likewise, she should not be referred to as male or "detransitioned." Since gendered terms are used in the lead, it probably makes sense to add something like " genderfluid actress." I don't know if we have specific categories that distinguish genderqueer identities from binary transgender categories. -- DHeyward ( talk) 03:09, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
Rewrite the article to use no pronouns (where it makes sense) or singular they instead of masculine or feminine pronouns. -- AntiCompositeNumber ( Leave a message) 20:50, 15 September 2016 (UTC)
No apology needed; I was trying to be humorous. I don't mind how you wrote it (you missed a few pronouns BTW). But who is going to keep it pronoun free and well written? In any event, regardless of whether the article currently has pronouns, I still think we need to make a decision about whether the article should be an exception to MOS:GENDERID. That will help determine the future direction of the article. Thanks for your efforts in revising the article. Sundayclose ( talk) 00:43, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
latest expressed gender self-identificationwas "gender suspicious" - sometimes a man and sometimes a woman, depending on how she dressed, according to her brother David, as reported by various sources. Richmond's initial statement reflected that complexity ("became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis"). From this, it seems pretty clear to me that she no longer identified as transgender. (David literally said that.) So it's not about making an exception to MOS:GENDERID; it's about properly implementing it. However, just because she no longer identified as a transgender woman doesn't mean that it would be wrong to refer to her with feminine pronouns or call her an actress; it could mean that it might be better to avoid that if possible, but we don't have clear guidance on that. (When people come out as genderqueer, they tend to give clear guidance on this, stating their preferred pronouns. Arquette doesn't seem to have cared much either way.) -- Irn ( talk) 17:39, 17 September 2016 (UTC)
It seems to me that we are digressing in our efforts to construct this article based on how/when/why certain pronouns are preferred. If the pronoun is ambiguous or uncertain, then let's just write around it. Change he/she to "Arquette" and brother/sister to "sibling." etc, and be done with it. Ditch ∝ 01:26, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
"Brother David Arquette said that they were "gender suspicious", and" Is this meant to mean that both David and Alexis Arquette are/were gender suspicious? Or, is this an attempt to use a plural pronoun (and verb) to substitute for a gender-neutral singular pronoun? Why not "Brother David Arquette said that Alexis was "gender suspicious, and..."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.14.77.222 ( talk) 23:56, 14 February 2022 (UTC)
"Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis, passed this morning September 11, at 12:32 am," surrounded by loved ones, Richmond Arquette shared in a Facebook post. "We were playing music for him, and he passed during David Bowie's Starman. As per his wishes, we cheered at the moment that he transitioned to another dimension."
[1]. Are we gendering this person properly per MOS? It appears from the statement that Alexis identified as male at the end but I'm not sure how to convey a life of such a complex identity. The family sttement is binary. Do we have any sources that are not binary in nature or that support feminine pronouns? Arquette's family used masculine pronouns and identity in their statement. --
DHeyward (
talk) 07:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
In this edit, Partyclams removed the line “She was well known for her transition from male to female, and for supporting other people making similar transitions.” with the edit summary “Trivial info removal and redundancy cleanup”. In the same edit, Partyclams also removed the line “Arquette was a vocal supporter of other transgender people, including Chaz Bono, who transitioned from female to male between 2008 and 2010.” As far as I can tell, her transition was quite possibly the most notable aspect of her life, more than her relatively minor acting roles, and I think it belongs in the lead. I don't know how well known she was for her trans activism, so maybe that part shouldn't be in the lead, but I certainly don't think her support for Chaz Bono is “trivial”, and I don't think it should be removed from the article. -- Irn ( talk) 23:38, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
I can see why the fact that she was surrounded by family at her time of death and them singing “Starman” might seem trivial, but I think it's more important than it might appear. This sort of detail actually gives a lot of information regarding the circumstances of her death. We don't know how she died or what she died from, but knowing that she was serenaded by her family at the moment she died gives us a lot of useful context. For example, it shows that her death was anticipated by her family who had clearly accepted it before it happened, so it wasn't a surprise or a sudden tragedy. -- Irn ( talk) 23:40, 12 September 2016 (UTC)
Is there a better source than People magazine for this? The one listed cites People magazine and that it will update when further info is available (which may have happened?), but I'd think People magazine is not a RS. Hollth ( talk) 07:40, 13 September 2016 (UTC)
I added the cause of death as being from cardiac arrest after heart infection, and long-term diagnosis of HIV. @ Irn: removed it and said "see talk" but there is nothing on the talk page about this. I don't think HIV should be treated as something shameful or controversial in this day and age, especially in someone who is deceased. The same source is already used in the infobox to indicate cause of death was cardiac arrest, and other sources are reporting the same info from the coroner. I don't think it's right to remove it from the death info while we have the happy little Starman detail. This is not an obituary but an encyclopedia. Cause of death is cause of death and should be included when available. —Мандичка YO 😜 15:02, 21 September 2016 (UTC)
Having HIV is not shameful. I think we were just waiting for a more reliable source. Initials reports sounded like gossip. Since TMZ dug up the death certificate, that's pretty solid. 63.92.248.121 ( talk) 19:51, 22 September 2016 (UTC) Darwin
The brother's statement reads: "Our brother Robert, who became our brother Alexis, who became our sister Alexis, who became our brother Alexis, passed this morning September 11, at 12:32 am. Is this accurate or is this a typo? The clause that reads who became our brother Alexis is listed (repeated) twice. I am not sure if that was some intentional repetitive message or a typo. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro ( talk) 03:39, 14 September 2016 (UTC)
I have just made this edit to the xHamster page about their purchase and destruction of a sex tape alleged to show Alexis Arquette. xHamster's reasoning was to avoid Arquette being smeared. Not sure if this is worth adding to her bio, but I mention it for others to consider. Note that this Huffington Post piece also describes her death as from HIV/AIDS complications. EdChem ( talk) 12:27, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
There's nothing other than the trans stuff. There's no mention of her sexual orientation, relationships, friendships etc. Jim Michael ( talk) 16:56, 18 September 2016 (UTC)
There's also no mention of Arquette's "born as" name, either. Before Arquette transitioned or felt a member of the opposite gender "she" was a "he." Such as childhood. Not very true to the person's entire history. 97.85.91.212 ( talk) 21:30, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Alexis Arquette began identifying again as a man before her death. http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/final-days-alexis-arquette-a-928507
This should be noted in Arquette's personal info and journey with transgender life. i.e. From the article above, "Living in low-income housing and resistant to treating a rapidly progressing HIV, the transgender trailblazer, who died Sunday at age 47, spent her last days living as a man and struggling to make ends meet. Says one of her closest friends: "She was rightfully angry that she should have had the success and notoriety that comes with being such a talented actor and being born into a family that presents the opportunity."
173.71.97.28 ( talk) 18:31, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
I just noticed that the infobox says "aortic dissection" while the prose doesn't mention that at all. Can someone more acquainted with this subject reconcile this? Thanks. Stevie is the man! Talk • Work 19:06, 13 January 2017 (UTC)
Source: MSN
Patricia Arquette was disappointed to find that her sister, Alexis, was not recognized in the In Memoriam portion of the 89th Academy Awards.
The Oscar-winning actress spoke with ET's Carly Steel at Vanity Fair's Oscars after-party on Sunday night about Alexis -- who died on Sept. 11 at 47-- being snubbed at the awards show. "Alexis was a great actor, and had 70 credits, and was really brave to live her truth as a trans woman, and they didn't include her in the memorial," Patricia said of her sibling. "I think that was a real slight to the trans community, especially at this time, when trans kids can't even go to the bathroom in the United States of America at school. It says a lot about the lack of inclusion." "Trans kids can really never look at anyone and see their heroes, and I think that was a big mistake," the 48-year-old actress continued.
Read more: http://www.msn.com/en-us/movies/oscars/exclusive-patricia-arquette-calls-alexis-oscars-in-memoriam-snub-a-real-slight-to-the-trans-community/ar-AAnzQNL?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartanntp — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.22.51.116 ( talk) 18:35, 1 March 2017 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Please add the categories Category:20th-century American LGBT people and Category:21st-century American LGBT people. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 01:28, 15 June 2024 (UTC)