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Aleš Hemský was a
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renominated. Review: August 29, 2006. |
I don't know how this article received a rating of GA-class. Although there is a whole lot of information, I would say this article is not very good at all, and should probably be marked with the cleanup, NPOV, and unreferenced tags. There are entire paragraphs that need to be removed. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to override another user's assessment, especially when the assessment is just two days old, and also when it was done by such a prestigious user ( User:Plange), so I will leave the rating alone and start editing the article to improve it. I encourage all editors to help me with this article. -- Muéro 03:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Based on events so far, I have doubts that User:The strokes and I are going to come to a consensus in the near future. So, I put this page on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies and bio=yes#Articles to improve, in hopes that many Wikipedians will come, read about the disputed content, and comment, so a consensus can be reached. Muéro 22:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I come to this page with absolute ignorance of Ales Hemsky and little knowledge of ice hockey, but with considerable experience as a Wikipedian. Muéro has acted well by requesting comments: the tone of the dialogue here had started to get contentious. Before things degenerated into real hostility this editor sought fresh perspectives. That's exactly what a good editor should do. The aim is not to prove anybody right or wrong, but to make the article better.
The article shows considerable effort and a good detailed knowledge of its subject. Although I cannot comment on its accuracy, I follow other sports enough to have a general understanding of what this sort of piece should convey. The information is well organized and some elements, such as the statistics table, reflect real care and devotion.
That said, I would not have rated this a good article. It is desperately short on citations and offers many opinions editorially that ought to be substantiated with references to professional sports writers. The following is one example:
If the Edmonton press criticized Hemsky so thoroughly then it ought to be easy to cite at least one actual example of this criticism. The unsupported assertions "trying to do too much," "instincts seemed to be fine," and "limited confidence" are crystal-ball-gazing speculations that require supernatural powers. If some journalists in Canada claim such abilities then by all means quote their insights into Mr. Hemsky's psyche (and afterward ask them to tell me what my boyfriend is thinking because I can't make it out) - but seriously this goes far beyond what a Wikipedia article can assert editorially. Back it up with references.
Several talk page comments raised my eyebrow. Here's one:
I recommend reconsidering that opinion unless "thoroughally" observes a special Canadian spelling rule: humility is a virtue. My own writing at Wikipedia has also been criticized, sometimes quite justly - even though I take credit for three featured Wikipedia pages, have an Ivy League education, studied writing in graduate school, and have published more than some of the living writers whose biographies are already in Wikipedia. No one writes perfectly and one of the few ways to improve is to accept constructive feedback.
If the editor who wrote the above is content with a medicre article that gets a little more recognition than it deserves, then by all means reject further input with the same haughty manner. Continued mediocrity and probably a "former good article" template will be the result. To the extent that I understand the subject, the criticisms and suggestions raised on this talk page seem quite valid, and the article would benefit if they were taken seriously. Whoever brought the article to its current level has worked hard, probably as hard as he or she thought possible, and now a new challenge for improvements could raise the article to the next level. Treat this challenge as an opportunity. Regards, Durova 08:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
As a reader second and a die-hard Oilers fan first, I have to agree with the comments made regarding the neutrality of this article. It reads more like a message board thread than it does an encyclopedia article. As an example, how can one state that McKee hit Hemsky "with intent to injure" as fact? We don't know his intent. We can look at the hit and the circumstances and say that with 80% certainty he hit with intent to injure. But 80% does not make fact. As an Oiler fan, I too was fired up - but that does not allow me the luxury of assuming I know what people are thinking. The fact is that players on the ice react to hits of any kind when placed on a top player - whether clean or dirty. This is only one example, but it's representative of many of the 'facts' the author has chosen to use. Anyways, it's looking better.
Apedrape83 11:29, 11 September 2006
Based on the breathless, fan version of the entry discussed above versus the current "just the facts" Hemsky article now on display, the on-display version is much more factual and scholarly. A tad dry, but we're not trying to replace Robert Ludlum on the best seller lists. There could be room for some "added colour" in discussing the length and value of the Hemsky contract -- both uncharacteristic long and generous compared to recent signings by Oilers management -- and reflects the view that Oilers management regards Hemsky as a special talent and anticipate the impact this player is expected to have in coming seasons. I'm certain a suitable attribution to that effect can be found. Matthew McCallum 12:21, 16 September 2006
I've submitted this article for impartial review of GA status. Durova 16:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's why I reverted what was added to the article today:
-- Muéro 17:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, I'm going to give links, and if you want to include them, and format them the way that you like, go ahead. Why does information need to be removed if the formatting of the source is not the way you like it? I'm going to keep reverting, but now I know that a Red Wing fan is watching the page and making sure that nothing positive is said about the guy who eliminated them from the playoffs without all the proper verification, I'm going to cite it instead of assuming common knowledge to anyone with a brain.
I don't have an issue with the page as I've reverted it. It is your issue, and so you should be the one doing the grunt work. I've provided the information you requested, so if you just revert the page again instead of revising it to reflect my sources, ignoring the fact that I've (again) given you all the answers to your endless questions, I will be forced to do likewise.
Peace out, and don't let the stress of living such an antagonistic lifestyle kill you young The strokes 22:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
(1) Referring to someone as arrogant isn't "name-calling". If I called him a jackass, that would be name-calling; arrogance is well defined as a personality trait.
(2) As for using featured articles as reference, I'm all for that. Because featured articles don't cite every sentance in the way Muera would like. Random examples from the Wayne Gretzky article:
"On August 9, 1988, in a move that drastically changed the dynamics of the NHL, Gretzky was traded with Marty McSorley and Mike Krushelnyski by the Oilers to the Los Angeles Kings..."
"Gretzky's dominance throughout his career was attributed to the amount of time he practiced (by his own account, at least 4-5 hours a day) and also that he was a natural prodigy"
"During the 1981-82 season, he surpassed one of the game's most cherished records: 50 goals in 50 games."
"After "The Trade", Gretzky's personal popularity sank across Canada, but only temporarily."
"Gretzky's first season in Los Angeles saw a marked increase in attendance and fan interest in a city not previously known for following ice hockey."
POV, POV, POV, POV, POV. But it's all true though, right? Some common sense needs to be used once in a while, and I'm saying that that common sense is not being allowed in this article. I can't even call Hemsky a "talented playmaker"!! I have found a source for that though, as well as a quote that refers to his "increasing confidence as the last season went on", but the irony with that article (from the Edmonton Sun), is that the writer preambles with "Any fan sitting in the cheapest seats in the house can see...". lol. The strokes 17:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
*crickets chirp....tumbleweed blows by*
Was that the knockout punch, or does someone out there have an explanation? The strokes 22:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Look, I've already said that I'm going to cite everthing I add in this article from here on. What I don't get is this unparalleled enthusiasm to follow every Wikipeida rule to its fullest extent in this article, even though it's obvious that those same arbitrary rules are flawed, and have been ignored in some cases (as I've pointed out above). If Wikipeida changes the rules tomorrow to allow for such POV as I've pointed out exists in the Gretzky article, will you all hand over your firstborns if it meant preserving the sanctity of that new rule as well? In my view, based on my experience, rules are more like guidelines. Heck, there's a rule in the Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission's handbook that states that no liquor store is allowed to keep hidden weapons behind the counter. The police, however, encourage us to register a gun, and keep it hidden for self-defense in the event of an armed robbery. The AGLC inspectors aren't revoking our liquor license for our disobediance. They look the other way on that issue when they do spot checks, just because it's so obvious that while this rule is probably appropriate in most cases, in some instances in high-risk neighborhoods, there needs to be discretion applied. The strokes 22:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The olympic medal box is not needed. The brnoze is already noted in the awards section in a similar box. Redundant 68.149.157.248 16:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Now the question is ... who's going to add the comment from Wayne Gretzky, where he says that Ales Hemsky is the best player in the league? Lord knows I can't, because even though I would cite Canoe, FoxSports, the Edmonton Journal, and the National Post, I would still be accused of writing POV because the Wings fan doesn't like it when nice things are said about the player who took out his team in last year's playoffs. PS, I have almost collected all my links - expect a whole lotta cited material to be added by three months The strokes 21:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Should this article mention the incident with Dallas Stars v Edmonton Oilers where the Stars Patrik Stefan misses from 2ft on an empty net and falling over, turning over the puck and creating the rush that gave Ales Hemsky his scoring opportunity? 132.205.93.89 04:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's an article that has interviews with Hemsky and with coach Craig MacTavish about Hemsky, just in case anyone wants to add a source for MacTavish praising Hemsky (progress, maturity, etc) or Hemsky talking about his own play. Just remember to keep it NPOV! -- Muéro( talk/ c) 01:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know where it would fit in this article but Hemsky is currently participating in the IIHF Inline Hockey World Championships for the Czech Republic and i think it should be included in the article. ShipHockey22 ( talk) 16:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. WP:HOCKEY is not policy, and for names it is not supported by actual facts in many cases when they are provided. As to the de facto policy, that is a list that one might reasonably expect to have names spelled using what is common in their home country. That does not mean that this is the spelling that we should use everywhere ignoring WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. Then we have the discussed moved years ago that created this problem. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The debates on diacritics in tennis and ice hockey biographies are heated enough already. We don't need controversial closures from admins who have a strong opinion ( [16], "this problem") that puts them firmly on one side of the dispute ( WP:INVOLVED). Vegaswikian, your views on what constitutes an anglicized spelling, and your stretching of WP:COMMONNAME to cover common spellings, were clearly not supported by consensus here. You also ignored the part about inaccurate names (along with WP:NOT and WP:BLP). Prolog ( talk) 13:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I've changed the lead sentence, to conform to WP:UE. If the title is in English format, the native spelling should be included, in parentheses and italicized. So that's what I've done. I'm guessing the spelling will need changing throughout the article, too; anything else? Swanny18 ( talk) 20:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I have reassessed this article C class as I believe it fails one or more B-Class criteria (B1, B3). Cloudz 679 09:01, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
As a recent entrant to this topic I thought I would paste this as I've taken it for granted that English language sports listings websites can't use Czech names. But guess what? http://www.quanthockey.com/hockey-stats/en/profile.php?player=2394 In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Given Hemsky's individual performance at Sochi I suggest it is time to add "who plays for the Czech national team, and" to the article lead. Or similar wording. In ictu oculi ( talk) 23:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 21:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Ales Hemsky → Aleš Hemský – Don't really understand how this one lone player got missed in the big WP:HOCKEY name restores of 2 years ago at Talk:Dominik Halmoši, but anyway WP:HOCKEY is clear "All player pages should have diacritics applied (where required, according to the languages of the player in question)" and following Aleš Hemský's performance for the Czech Republic at the Sochi Winter Olympics the timing seems apposite. In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
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This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
Aleš Hemský was a
good article, but it was removed from the list as it no longer met the
good article criteria at the time. There are suggestions below for improving the article. If you can improve it,
please do; it may then be
renominated. Review: August 29, 2006. |
I don't know how this article received a rating of GA-class. Although there is a whole lot of information, I would say this article is not very good at all, and should probably be marked with the cleanup, NPOV, and unreferenced tags. There are entire paragraphs that need to be removed. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to override another user's assessment, especially when the assessment is just two days old, and also when it was done by such a prestigious user ( User:Plange), so I will leave the rating alone and start editing the article to improve it. I encourage all editors to help me with this article. -- Muéro 03:27, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Based on events so far, I have doubts that User:The strokes and I are going to come to a consensus in the near future. So, I put this page on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Biographies and bio=yes#Articles to improve, in hopes that many Wikipedians will come, read about the disputed content, and comment, so a consensus can be reached. Muéro 22:44, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
I come to this page with absolute ignorance of Ales Hemsky and little knowledge of ice hockey, but with considerable experience as a Wikipedian. Muéro has acted well by requesting comments: the tone of the dialogue here had started to get contentious. Before things degenerated into real hostility this editor sought fresh perspectives. That's exactly what a good editor should do. The aim is not to prove anybody right or wrong, but to make the article better.
The article shows considerable effort and a good detailed knowledge of its subject. Although I cannot comment on its accuracy, I follow other sports enough to have a general understanding of what this sort of piece should convey. The information is well organized and some elements, such as the statistics table, reflect real care and devotion.
That said, I would not have rated this a good article. It is desperately short on citations and offers many opinions editorially that ought to be substantiated with references to professional sports writers. The following is one example:
If the Edmonton press criticized Hemsky so thoroughly then it ought to be easy to cite at least one actual example of this criticism. The unsupported assertions "trying to do too much," "instincts seemed to be fine," and "limited confidence" are crystal-ball-gazing speculations that require supernatural powers. If some journalists in Canada claim such abilities then by all means quote their insights into Mr. Hemsky's psyche (and afterward ask them to tell me what my boyfriend is thinking because I can't make it out) - but seriously this goes far beyond what a Wikipedia article can assert editorially. Back it up with references.
Several talk page comments raised my eyebrow. Here's one:
I recommend reconsidering that opinion unless "thoroughally" observes a special Canadian spelling rule: humility is a virtue. My own writing at Wikipedia has also been criticized, sometimes quite justly - even though I take credit for three featured Wikipedia pages, have an Ivy League education, studied writing in graduate school, and have published more than some of the living writers whose biographies are already in Wikipedia. No one writes perfectly and one of the few ways to improve is to accept constructive feedback.
If the editor who wrote the above is content with a medicre article that gets a little more recognition than it deserves, then by all means reject further input with the same haughty manner. Continued mediocrity and probably a "former good article" template will be the result. To the extent that I understand the subject, the criticisms and suggestions raised on this talk page seem quite valid, and the article would benefit if they were taken seriously. Whoever brought the article to its current level has worked hard, probably as hard as he or she thought possible, and now a new challenge for improvements could raise the article to the next level. Treat this challenge as an opportunity. Regards, Durova 08:57, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
As a reader second and a die-hard Oilers fan first, I have to agree with the comments made regarding the neutrality of this article. It reads more like a message board thread than it does an encyclopedia article. As an example, how can one state that McKee hit Hemsky "with intent to injure" as fact? We don't know his intent. We can look at the hit and the circumstances and say that with 80% certainty he hit with intent to injure. But 80% does not make fact. As an Oiler fan, I too was fired up - but that does not allow me the luxury of assuming I know what people are thinking. The fact is that players on the ice react to hits of any kind when placed on a top player - whether clean or dirty. This is only one example, but it's representative of many of the 'facts' the author has chosen to use. Anyways, it's looking better.
Apedrape83 11:29, 11 September 2006
Based on the breathless, fan version of the entry discussed above versus the current "just the facts" Hemsky article now on display, the on-display version is much more factual and scholarly. A tad dry, but we're not trying to replace Robert Ludlum on the best seller lists. There could be room for some "added colour" in discussing the length and value of the Hemsky contract -- both uncharacteristic long and generous compared to recent signings by Oilers management -- and reflects the view that Oilers management regards Hemsky as a special talent and anticipate the impact this player is expected to have in coming seasons. I'm certain a suitable attribution to that effect can be found. Matthew McCallum 12:21, 16 September 2006
I've submitted this article for impartial review of GA status. Durova 16:50, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
Here's why I reverted what was added to the article today:
-- Muéro 17:45, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Again, I'm going to give links, and if you want to include them, and format them the way that you like, go ahead. Why does information need to be removed if the formatting of the source is not the way you like it? I'm going to keep reverting, but now I know that a Red Wing fan is watching the page and making sure that nothing positive is said about the guy who eliminated them from the playoffs without all the proper verification, I'm going to cite it instead of assuming common knowledge to anyone with a brain.
I don't have an issue with the page as I've reverted it. It is your issue, and so you should be the one doing the grunt work. I've provided the information you requested, so if you just revert the page again instead of revising it to reflect my sources, ignoring the fact that I've (again) given you all the answers to your endless questions, I will be forced to do likewise.
Peace out, and don't let the stress of living such an antagonistic lifestyle kill you young The strokes 22:47, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
(1) Referring to someone as arrogant isn't "name-calling". If I called him a jackass, that would be name-calling; arrogance is well defined as a personality trait.
(2) As for using featured articles as reference, I'm all for that. Because featured articles don't cite every sentance in the way Muera would like. Random examples from the Wayne Gretzky article:
"On August 9, 1988, in a move that drastically changed the dynamics of the NHL, Gretzky was traded with Marty McSorley and Mike Krushelnyski by the Oilers to the Los Angeles Kings..."
"Gretzky's dominance throughout his career was attributed to the amount of time he practiced (by his own account, at least 4-5 hours a day) and also that he was a natural prodigy"
"During the 1981-82 season, he surpassed one of the game's most cherished records: 50 goals in 50 games."
"After "The Trade", Gretzky's personal popularity sank across Canada, but only temporarily."
"Gretzky's first season in Los Angeles saw a marked increase in attendance and fan interest in a city not previously known for following ice hockey."
POV, POV, POV, POV, POV. But it's all true though, right? Some common sense needs to be used once in a while, and I'm saying that that common sense is not being allowed in this article. I can't even call Hemsky a "talented playmaker"!! I have found a source for that though, as well as a quote that refers to his "increasing confidence as the last season went on", but the irony with that article (from the Edmonton Sun), is that the writer preambles with "Any fan sitting in the cheapest seats in the house can see...". lol. The strokes 17:39, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
*crickets chirp....tumbleweed blows by*
Was that the knockout punch, or does someone out there have an explanation? The strokes 22:20, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
Look, I've already said that I'm going to cite everthing I add in this article from here on. What I don't get is this unparalleled enthusiasm to follow every Wikipeida rule to its fullest extent in this article, even though it's obvious that those same arbitrary rules are flawed, and have been ignored in some cases (as I've pointed out above). If Wikipeida changes the rules tomorrow to allow for such POV as I've pointed out exists in the Gretzky article, will you all hand over your firstborns if it meant preserving the sanctity of that new rule as well? In my view, based on my experience, rules are more like guidelines. Heck, there's a rule in the Alberta Gaming and Liquor Commission's handbook that states that no liquor store is allowed to keep hidden weapons behind the counter. The police, however, encourage us to register a gun, and keep it hidden for self-defense in the event of an armed robbery. The AGLC inspectors aren't revoking our liquor license for our disobediance. They look the other way on that issue when they do spot checks, just because it's so obvious that while this rule is probably appropriate in most cases, in some instances in high-risk neighborhoods, there needs to be discretion applied. The strokes 22:58, 4 October 2006 (UTC)
The olympic medal box is not needed. The brnoze is already noted in the awards section in a similar box. Redundant 68.149.157.248 16:13, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Now the question is ... who's going to add the comment from Wayne Gretzky, where he says that Ales Hemsky is the best player in the league? Lord knows I can't, because even though I would cite Canoe, FoxSports, the Edmonton Journal, and the National Post, I would still be accused of writing POV because the Wings fan doesn't like it when nice things are said about the player who took out his team in last year's playoffs. PS, I have almost collected all my links - expect a whole lotta cited material to be added by three months The strokes 21:55, 27 October 2006 (UTC)
Should this article mention the incident with Dallas Stars v Edmonton Oilers where the Stars Patrik Stefan misses from 2ft on an empty net and falling over, turning over the puck and creating the rush that gave Ales Hemsky his scoring opportunity? 132.205.93.89 04:18, 9 January 2007 (UTC)
Here's an article that has interviews with Hemsky and with coach Craig MacTavish about Hemsky, just in case anyone wants to add a source for MacTavish praising Hemsky (progress, maturity, etc) or Hemsky talking about his own play. Just remember to keep it NPOV! -- Muéro( talk/ c) 01:33, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't know where it would fit in this article but Hemsky is currently participating in the IIHF Inline Hockey World Championships for the Czech Republic and i think it should be included in the article. ShipHockey22 ( talk) 16:00, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: page moved. WP:HOCKEY is not policy, and for names it is not supported by actual facts in many cases when they are provided. As to the de facto policy, that is a list that one might reasonably expect to have names spelled using what is common in their home country. That does not mean that this is the spelling that we should use everywhere ignoring WP:UE and WP:COMMONNAME. Then we have the discussed moved years ago that created this problem. Vegaswikian ( talk) 00:39, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
The debates on diacritics in tennis and ice hockey biographies are heated enough already. We don't need controversial closures from admins who have a strong opinion ( [16], "this problem") that puts them firmly on one side of the dispute ( WP:INVOLVED). Vegaswikian, your views on what constitutes an anglicized spelling, and your stretching of WP:COMMONNAME to cover common spellings, were clearly not supported by consensus here. You also ignored the part about inaccurate names (along with WP:NOT and WP:BLP). Prolog ( talk) 13:28, 14 November 2011 (UTC)
I've changed the lead sentence, to conform to WP:UE. If the title is in English format, the native spelling should be included, in parentheses and italicized. So that's what I've done. I'm guessing the spelling will need changing throughout the article, too; anything else? Swanny18 ( talk) 20:27, 17 November 2011 (UTC)
I have reassessed this article C class as I believe it fails one or more B-Class criteria (B1, B3). Cloudz 679 09:01, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
As a recent entrant to this topic I thought I would paste this as I've taken it for granted that English language sports listings websites can't use Czech names. But guess what? http://www.quanthockey.com/hockey-stats/en/profile.php?player=2394 In ictu oculi ( talk) 15:16, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Given Hemsky's individual performance at Sochi I suggest it is time to add "who plays for the Czech national team, and" to the article lead. Or similar wording. In ictu oculi ( talk) 23:50, 13 March 2014 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: moved. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 21:38, 25 March 2014 (UTC)
Ales Hemsky → Aleš Hemský – Don't really understand how this one lone player got missed in the big WP:HOCKEY name restores of 2 years ago at Talk:Dominik Halmoši, but anyway WP:HOCKEY is clear "All player pages should have diacritics applied (where required, according to the languages of the player in question)" and following Aleš Hemský's performance for the Czech Republic at the Sochi Winter Olympics the timing seems apposite. In ictu oculi ( talk) 18:20, 18 March 2014 (UTC)
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source check}}
(last update: 18 January 2022).
Cheers.— InternetArchiveBot ( Report bug) 14:39, 3 December 2017 (UTC)