![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Hey again - Another two cents.
Cheers, kwami 00:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
First of all the phrase "and by smaller numbers of ethnic Albanians in other parts of the southern Balkans, along the east coast of Italy and in Sicily, in southern Greece, and in Germany, Sweden, the United States, Ukraine, and Belgium." is copy paste from Britanica, that means using it is a possible copyright violation.
Apart from that I think that the previous phrasing ( see here) is more NPOV. +MATIA ☎ 10:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Arvanites are not ethnic Albanians is a good start... Can you notice any other differences between the two versions? +MATIA ☎ 11:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
REX we've been through all these before. The Chams were about 40.000 and they left (let's not get into the reasons now), during the 2nd world war. And the majority of the Cham people were muslims, like the majority of Tosks were christians. All these people are reffered by scholars (for example the editors of Britanica) as Albanians. The majority of "Albanians" (sic) in Greece are not the Chams nor the Albanian workers (since 1992) but the Arvanites. They spoke Arvanitika which some scholars call Albanian, etc. With your search on Albanian language, you 'll see various things that perhaps I've already read, and I think that you'll agree with me. Please give a shot, trying to understand my explanation.
As for Britannica if we could copy-paste it, it would be interesting, but I'm afraid we can't. Read Talk:1911 Encyclopædia Britannica and Wikipedia:1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica. Both the 1911 and the current Britannica are excellent encyclopedias but a) we can't copy-paste from the new one because of copyright (we can't even use the name Britannica for citing the 1911) and b) read WP:PD about bias - I'm not making it up, I'm trying to help you and to discuss that change. +MATIA ☎ 12:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not trying to cover up anything. I've wrote about the ethnic Albanians who came to work in Greece (check my text for the word 1992). Verify with a wikipedia expert what I wrote if you don't believe what I write, or if you can't understand the links I gave you before. PS Ethnologue allows to be cited as a refference and they are linguists. +MATIA ☎ 13:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the point here is whether the language of Arvanit is albanian or not. The pre-otoman name of Albania was Arbani and even the albanians of that time called themselves Arbaneshe. In greek you can see the change of B->V which makes is Arvani. Also the Arbanesh or Arberesh (with n->r rotacion in southern tosk dialect)which live nowadays in Itali call themselves, Arberesh and not Albanians. This does not exclude the fact that they are of Albanian origin and they speak Albanian language. -
Aigest
10:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I'll repeat a question I posed a few months back, in the hope that somebody has an answer. In the audio examples provided, Albanian r definitely sounds like an English alveolar approximant (ɹ), not a Spanish alveolar flap (ɾ) as claimed in the article. Can anyone confirm this? No audio is provided for rr to establish whether it is in fact an alveolar trill (r). Also, gj and q are given as the voiced (ɟ) and voiceless palatal plosive (c) respectively, even though they sound more like the postalveolar affricates dʒ and tʃ rather than true palatal plosives.-- Theathenae 13:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Isn't that
original research? κακιά and μαγκιά sound like /kakja/ and /magja/ to me. Also, I was in Cyprus the other day and it sounded quite different (wanna know how)? I'll require a definete source for the presence of those sounds in Greek, or I'll change due to lack of sources. Omniglot denies the existence of those phonemes
Rex(
talk)
15:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Not really, I have lived in Greece for 11 years, I know how it's pronounced, just in the same way that I know that in Tirana, qen (dog) is pronounced exectly like the Greek word κεν (your version). It is pronounced chen in Shkoder I think, it depends on the dialect. Do find a source. There is no evidence to support the existence of those phonemes in Greek.
Rex(
talk)
17:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
According to Omniglot, if there were a Greek word κεν, it would be pronounced /kεn/. Maybe that should be made clear in the article
Greek language, that palatat plosives don't exist in Greek. If they do, please provide evidence.
Rex(
talk)
17:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Really, then why don't we add
clicks to the
Greek language article? There is no source that says that there isn't. This is an encyclopaedia, you don't build encyclopaedias by natural deduction. It's not for me to prove that those sounds don't exist. It's for you to prove that they do exist.
Rex(
talk)
17:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Oops, would you look at
that. The
University of London obviously has no problem in saying that "q" is a voiceless palatal plosive.
Rex(
talk)
17:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Not really. Omniglot is a private website run by an amateur polyglot. The UCL obviously carries more weight, AND says that r is a voiced alveolar tap, that rr is voiced alveolar trill, that gj is a voiced palatal plosive, that q is a voiceless palatal plosive etc. Who shall prevail?
WP:RC
Rex(
talk)
17:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I guess so. What a pity that I created and added those
tables to the
Greek language article claiming the existence of palatal plosives in Greek. I kinda knew that all along :-)))
Rex(
talk)
17:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean? I was just begining to doubt how much truth there is in my "original research" on the
Greek language.
Rex(
talk)
17:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Umm, if κ and γκ are palatal before ε, but not elsewhere, and there is no [k] or [g] before ε, then they're allophones, not phonemes. You could as easily claim that English has palatal stops in words like key, but it would be inappropriate to add them has separate consonants. kwami 23:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, should have said "before ε, η, υ, and ι". Palatal before front vowels, velar elsewhere. This is very common allophony. It could lead to a phonemic split eventually, as it did in English and the Romance languages.
Also, I wouldn't place too much confidence in the University of London page either. (Omniglot truly is unreliable, so we need not even go there except to get ideas to check out elsewhere.) The problem is that it is very common to give 'close enough' phonemic correspondances, and this page appears to be a homework assignment for an elementary linguistics class. The author could easily have copied the example from some other source without knowing anything of the language. (They might have had the palatal symbols merely for convenience, like you see for the Indic languages, and the author could have taken them at face value and added unjustified IPA descriptions. This happens all the time!) Or s/he could have simplified things to make the problem more accessible to the students. What you really need is a detailed phonetic description of these sounds, rather than just IPA labels. Indic langages don't have palatal stops, even though they're listed with the phonemes /c/ and /ɟ/ in dozens of references. I'm not trying to claim that Albanian doesn't have these sounds - I've never heard the language - but this isn't a convincing reference. However, there would be no need for the letters q and gj if they weren't phonemes, so I think the alphabet itself is reasonably good evidence that they are somehow different from ç and xh. And without any better reference, we might as well leave them as palatals. I just think we should confirm this if we can. kwami 23:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I take some of that back. If Rex can attest that Albanian qen is pronounced as Greek κεν (that is, that it is a pure stop and not aspirated or an affricate), and furthermore that q is pronounced the same way before all other Albanian vowels, then this would be confirmation of the existance of palatal stops in Albanian, even if technically original research that should be supported elsewhere if possible. kwami 23:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I just downloaded the files (they weren't playable in IE either), and yes, they sure do sound like affricates, not stops. The sound quality isn't the best, and they're said rather quickly, though. Rex, if you can find sound samples of Mandarin, could you listen to retroflex zh vs. alveolo-palatal j, and tell us if that's anything like the difference between Albanian ç and q? kwami 21:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The Chinese zh and j don't exist in Albanian. I have listened to both of them. Especially the j, it is totally different from q. Chinese J sounds more like /ts/.
Rex(
talk)
21:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm moving this discussion over from my talk page so everyone has access to it. kwami 19:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I saw your edits to
Albanian language. I'm concerned that they may be a bit
original research. I have a recent Albanian grammar book in front of me right now and it clearly says that there exists a "gjinore" (genetive) and a "dhanore" (dative). If you look at
Balkan linguistic union#Case system, it says that in the Balkan languages, the genitive and dative cases (or corresponding prepositional constructions) are merged, it doesn't say that a genetive case does not exist. You say that the equivalent of a genitive is formed by using the prepositions i/e/të/së with the dative. Your version seems to imply that a genetive does not exist. While this may be true as far as linguists are concerned, it's a rather novel way to look at it, since the genetive is listed in every Albanian gramar book. Also, if you look at
Romanian grammar, they list a genetive there as well. Now I'm no linguist, but it does seem like original research and would make Wikipedia stand out like white amongst black if this novel apprach is taken.
Rex(
talk)
12:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but it also may not. This all seems like original research to me. In Romanian (and I know this for a fact) nominative and accusative are always identical and genetive and dative are always identical. Why can we say that Romanian has two cases instead of four. The Balkan Sprachbund is about the two cases being identical. That doesn't mean that the genetive no longer exists.
Rex(
talk)
20:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Maybe, however, on what authority are we saying that this "one case" is called dative and not genetive. It could be the other way around... After all, in Greek the "one case" is the genetive (modern greek).
Rex(
talk)
20:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
You say: "The equivalent of a genitive is formed by using the prepositions i/e/të/së with the dative.". This seems to me that it is not exact. i/e/të/së are called "nyje përaparme" that can be translated as "preposited articles" and, as you surely know, are used also with the adjectives. Prepositions are called "parafjala" and are for exemple nga, tek, në, nëpër, me, për and so on.
I have in front of me a grammar written by Gjovalin Shkurtaj where cases are listed as five (nominative, accusative, dative, genitive and ablative). Gjovalin Shkurtaj was listed in the article we are discussing as a well known albanologist (the old article stated: ...and Gjovalin Shkurtaj who is probably the most distinguished socio-linguist in Albania today. He is the head of the Department of Linguistics at Tirana University). Now the Albanology section has been deleted.
I think that Kwami's point of view on the dative-genitive merging is substantially correct, but it is a linguistical point of view and contrasts with the sense that Albanians have of their own language. They are tought at school that Albanian has five cases and will be surprised to read that they have only four (and would regard it as an error).
With respect to all.
ninonino, 13 November 2005 (UTC).
I don't see the point of the extensive table. I understand that it is useful to put Albanian in its Indo-European context, but in a general encyclopedia article like this, it is pointless to include every IE language you can think of, unless it makes a particular point: if, for example, some Albanian form can only be connected to Tocharian or Old Prussian and no other attested IE form. I have trimmed the table, but it could probably stand further trimming. The languages that are most relevant are: representatives of several IE branches (ideally as old as possible, so Latin rather than French etc.), and languages which have been in contact with Albanian since IE unity, notably Greek, South Slavic, Romanian, and Italian (to show borrowings). But the current table doesn't show borrowings.... -- Macrakis 16:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph:
Some eminent scholars in the field of Albanian language have been Johann Georg von Hahn, Franz Bopp, Gustav Meyer, Norbert Jokl, Eqrem Çabej, Stuart Edward Mann, Carlo Tagliavini, Wacław Cimochowski, Eric Pratt Hamp, Agnija Desnickaja, Martin Camaj and Gjovalin Shkurtaj. Gjovalin Shkurtaj is probably the most distinguished socio-linguist in Albania today, and he is the head of the Department of Linguistics at Tirana University.
used to be in the article. If anyone wants perhaps it can be re-phrased and re-inserted. talk to +MATIA 13:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I listed it in the references, but according to [1]:
I don't remember if the book's author states which sort of Albanian (s)he is teaching. The back cover only says "Albanian": [2] One can see a few sample pages here (perhaps this is a temporary link which won't work for you, but you can follow the "excerpt" link at [3] ) Apokrif 13:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The purple like color of "çiklamin" [4] is etymologically explained with the Ancient Greek kyklā́mīnos. It is used in nowadays Albanian to describe the colour which is more specifically a mixture between purple and pink.
looks to me like the words for green and yellow are around the wrong way in the table for proto indo european languages gjelber is surely yellow (not green) (I'm making this guess based on gelb being yellow in german) EdwardLane ( talk) 15:08, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
The Latin word for scarlet, coccinus is a loan from Greek kokkinos -> kokkos (kermes berries), Welsh has coch for red, and Albanian has kuq. Are kuq, kokkos, and coch cognates or are the Albanian and Welsh terms borrowed from Latin? It would be interesting if someone could find out. Imperial78 09:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Albanian zi and Welsh du /di/ sound so similar that if they are not cognates from PIE does anyone have an alternative explanation? Xhyljen 12:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Most probably the adjective i/e zi (black) derives from the word siyah(black) from Persian (Farsi) language, also an Indoeuropean language. Also in Turkish language siyah stands for black and they loaned this word from Farsi (Persian/Iranian language). This, at the same time, explains how this word came into Albanian language, from influences of the Ottoman Empire (mid. 15th century- early 20th century). ( Pirro i epirit ( talk) 16:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC))
All you need to do is scroll down one post, but here it is: Albanian zi 'black' (notice the fuller plural forms zinj, zeza) is from reconstructed Proto-Albanian *džedi, from Indo-European *gwed-, which gave OE cwēad "bad", MHG quāt "dirt", Lith gé(.)da "shame", OSl gadǔkǔ "disgusting", gadǔ "reptile, worm"
Welsh du "dark", cognate with Irish dub, is from Proto-Celtic *dubios, which is akin to E deaf, and Gk typhlós "blind".
Flibjib8 17:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
i have added blertë to the list with gjelbër for 'green', and i have annotated the notes, since only kuq, verdhë, and gjelbër are borrowings (coccum, viridis, galbinus). the similarities with welsh are due to both languages borrowing the same words from latin, which therefore leads to the similarities between romanian and italian with albanian, since both are descendants of latin. though this does not include Alb zi 'black' and Welsh du, which are from entirely different sources (see below).
specific etymologies are:
- muaj 'month' < Proto-Albanian *môsnja; cf. Eng month, Lat mensis, OIr mí, Skt más, Arm amis, OSl měšecĭ, Lith ménesis
- ri 'new, young, recent' < Proto-Albanian *rija; cf. ON o,rr "quick", OSax aru "id"
- nënë 'mother'; cf. Welsh nain 'grandmother', Lat nonna 'id', Gk nânnê 'maternal aunt', nínnê 'grandmother', Bulg neni 'the other one', Russ nyanya 'child's guardian', Farsi nana 'mother', Skt naná 'mother'
- motër < Proto-Albanian *mâter; cf. Eng mother, Lat māter, Ir mathair, Gk mátér, OSl mati, Skt mātá, Toch A macar
- natë < Proto-Albanian *nakti; cf. Eng night, Lat nox, Welsh nos, Gk nýx, OSl noštĭ, Lith naktìs, Skt nákt, Hitt nekuz, Toch A naktim
- hundë - ?
- tre < Proto-Albanian *treje; cf. Eng three, Lat tres, Ir trí, etc.
- zi/zezë < *zëi < Proto-Albanian *džedi; cf. OEng cwéad 'bad', MHGer quât 'dirt', Lith géda 'shame', OSl gadǔkǔ 'disgusting', gadǔ 'reptile, worm'
- blertë < OAlb blerë < Proto-Albanian *blôra; cf. Lat flōrus 'shining, bright', Welsh blawr 'grey'
- gjelbër < German gelb 'yellow'
- ujk < OAlb ulk < Proto-Albanian *(w)ulka; cf. Lat lupus 'wolf', Gk lýkos, Skt vr.ka, Lith vil~kas, Latv vìlks, OSl vlŭkŭ, Av vəhrkō, Eng wolf, Welsh gweilgi 'torrent', Russ volk
Welsh du 'dark, black', akin to Old Irish dub, comes from Proto-Celtic dubos; cf. E deaf, Gk typhlós 'blind'
71.74.209.129 03:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Flibjib8 21:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
hundë means 'nose' but is not in any way related to most of the words for nose in the other indo-european languages. i didn't make the chart, but i can only assume the purpose of putting it in, just like comparing 'kuq', nënë, or blertë is to show words that are not related to most other indo-european languages, to convey the mixture in albanian.
i sadly do not have access right now to orel's albanian etymological dictionary, so i can't give you an etymology of the word. all i can say is that the initial h- probably comes from an sk-, based on what else i know about albanian etymology. so, clearly, no relation to NOSE.
Flibjib8 21:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the history section, though I kept a portion of it at the end. 71.74.209.129 03:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
i have added specific information about the major characteristics that differentiate Tosk and Gheg and a number of other characteristics for other dialects in the dialect section. nothing was lost or altered. Flibjib8 19:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
On my browser (Firefox 1.5.0.6) The "Indoeuropean languages" box overlaps the section comparing the Albanian language to other Indoeuropean languages. Looks really bad. If the problem isn't just a prob with my browser, then perhaps judicious use of <p><br clear="all" /></p> might help. Ling.Nut 02:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The aritcle states that the word 'jan' is delivered through the roma gipsies. Well, i think that the word 'jan' is from the persian word of same meaning, as the word is used in turkish, urdu, persian, hindi and some dialects of kurdish, and that it is delivered to albanian through the ottoman empire. Hamid, 21:30, 28 september 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.51.211.94 ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
for whoever added the "vocabulary" section, you should be aware that you are quoting dated material. i realize that it is accepted practice to quote this bit as often as possible when in Albania, as if to establish some sort of solid link to the past, but to presume that 1) Albanian has not significantly changed in 2000 years and that 2) the modern Albanian word forms, which if truly represented in the names listed (Thetis, Dhea, Malion, etc), would discount all etymological reconstructions that attach it to indo-european, is entirely preposterous.
Take for instance Thetis, supposedly equivalent to Alb det "sea". Notice the fuller forms of Italo-Albanian dejt, dejët and dialectal dēt, both of which indicate a much larger or fuller form, and this probably just 1000 years ago. The typical reconstruction is *deubeta, related to English depth. Further, a modern d cannot come from a former th. The two cannot be linked.
please research and then revise or remove this section or i will do it for you.
Flibjib8 04:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What are these mystical 12th century manuscripts that are mentioned in the vocabulary section? Does the one allegedly found in the Vatican mean the same one that was "found" couple of years ago and then revealed as a hoax? The Athonite manuscript was also news to me. Does it really mean (Balkan)Albanian or rather Caucasian Albanian? I would like to see the sources.
213.216.208.231
10:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, "la lingua Albanesca" cannot be Latin, since Latin does not have article "la". 213.216.208.231 09:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I can agree with the fact that trying to explain old words with actual Albanian is a little bit difficult, but also there are cases that some of the old words have not passed many changes through milleniums. For example number three, or day, night, mother. In the case the name Dhemetra, is very logic to explain it with dhe-metra, which means earth-mother.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetra you can see even the link where dheghom is I.E name for earth and it is still used in Albanian in the form of "Dhe". And for the change matera-moter (sister) in Albanian is a well known fact and you can find o lot of articles as a reference.
Another explanation you can find for the goddes Aphrodite, which in Albanian language is the name of the star and explains that the day is approaching(afro-approaching dit-day). The people used with astronomy which know the position of the planet and its appearance on the sky can see the explanation there. This star(planet) in the sky starts shining when the day is approaching. -
Aigest
10:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
who here besides me sees a similarity to the finnish and french languages? because from what i see, most albanian place names always have those two dots on them, like most finnish place names, Example: Kotla-Jaarve, and i also noticed a similarity between written shiqp and the french language in a book about albania i read. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.175.1.237 ( talk) 16:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC).
The dialects section is repetitious, unclear (multiple dialects are one dialect), and could be better organized. — Largo Plazo 18:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
History section says that the cognates with Illyrian are few. Have anyone tried to map the cognates with Dacian and the cognates with Thracian? Rursus 07:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Megistias ( talk) 21:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Most sources list is an an alveolar tap, but are there any sources which list it as an alveolar approximant? azalea pomp 07:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
The table of comparisons is fouled up. The columns for Albanian words often align with the wrong other languages columns. The person who created the table should fix it. Or it should be totally removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.40.86 ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
If you take a look here: [ [5]] you can see that bear (the animal) in Gaulish is believed to be pronounced Artiu. In Albanian it's called Ari or Ariu. Thought it was an interesting find :-) 213.112.155.156 20:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The current article ( as of 13:47, 5 July 2007 UTC) mentions 15 million speakers in the lead, and 10 to 15 million in the infobox. But the reference used (Ethnologue) mentions 6 million.
Regardless of what the real number is, it would be much appreciated if the text is modified to match the reference, or if the reference is changed or amended to explain the discrepancy. I didn't edit it myself because I'm not familiar with the topic and didn't find any discussion about this issue in the talk pages to guide me. - Thanks already, Ev 19:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Does tha include imaginary speakers that exist only in the fevered imagination of albanian nationalists? someone please fix this and give a correct figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.131.247 ( talk • contribs) 07:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the article: Note: Aside from kuq, verdhë, and gjelbër, these Albanian words are directly inherited from Proto-Indo-European. Albanian motër is cognate with the Indo-European root for "mother", probably the result of a derived form (< *motrë < *mātrā < through *māterea) meaning "maternal", and by extension "uterine sister", akin to Welsh modryb "aunt, lit. mother's sister". Note: That Albanian "moter" is akin to Welsh "modryb" is a complete flight of fancy. Also for the information of people who do NOT know Albanian: "gjelber" does NOT mean "giallo" or "yellow"; and "verdhe" does NOT mean "verde" or "green" !!! Rather the other way round! Why don't you consult Albanian -speaking natives instead of brandishing those "facts"? I corrected you once and you decided to cancel my editing but your table still contains mistakes! Can I trust the rest of this article?
I can't tell where the discussion begins and where the content ends so I removed it all. Please keep discussion on the talk page and not in the article.
Note: If you cannot cite your sources, the info shouldn't be included at all
-- M2Ys4U ( talk) 01:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
That Albanien derives from Illyrian is of course a current theory, but saying that "Most scholars believe that Albanian derives from the Illyrian language" is a bit too strong. Most scholars, in my experience, are very cautious on the topic of classificating Albanian. Personally, I also think the Illyrian theory may be the most likely, but saying that most scholars think so is a bit strong. JdeJ 17:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As the ISO 639-3 code "als", which is used for years by the Alemannic German wikipedia http://als.wikipedia.org/ , had recently been assigned to Tosk Albanian, we have an inconsistency which is discussed at Wikipedia talk:User categories for discussion (and elsewhere). A simple solution could be to file a request to have the Albanian codes changed, to ones beginning with "sq" rather than "al".
code | now | better |
---|---|---|
alb | Albanian ISO 639-2 | Albanian |
aln | Gheg | Low Alemannic German (Niederalemannische Sprache) |
aae | Arbëreshë | Arbëreshë? |
aat | Arvanitika | Arvanitika? |
als | Tosk | Alemannic German (Alemannische Sprache) or Alsatian |
sqe | - | Arbëreshë? |
sqb | - | Arbëreshë? |
sqg | - | Gheg |
sqi | Shqip Albanian | Shqip Albanian |
sqr | - | Soqotri |
sqt | Soqotri | Tosk |
sqv | - | Arvanitika? |
Does this make sense? -- Matthead discuß! O 05:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
But Albanian is notabily higher developed and more noble than any slavic language, especially than the serbian one which has been created during the 1900-s.
What the heck does that mean? I'm pretty sure "higher developed and more noble" is not an accepted philological description. I smell Albanian nationalism. Borkingchikapa 15:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
One site, www.krysstal.com/langfams says that Albanian falls within the Illyric language branch, along with the dead languages Illyric and Mesapian. I haven't checked other sources but if others might, I propose this heading be changed and that the extinct languages be added.
Parmadil 05:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The Thracian Language: "An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD." Megistias ( talk) 22:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
In the literature of Pjeter Bogdani Albanian(Shqip) also was addressed as Epirotic language although written in Gege dialect-- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Cuneus Prophetarum (The Band of the Prophets) of Pjeter Bogdani Albanian Academy of Science 2005 was written in Italian and Epirotic language , the Albanian language was addressed often as Epirotic or “Shqip” -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Jo,No or Oxi, do not pervert the source -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
He lived 17 century and can not be an Albanian nationalist -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
No, are not primary source and not my original work, if you care to read the books, read also primary and secondary source controversy. I am leaving your last version and stop racism and insulting me , can you tell me you image of normal person?!-- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Turkalbanians and Turkalbanian language.These were also the names for 500 years because of the Connection of Albanians with islam and their great roles in the Ottoman empire as lords.Source,Sarandos Kargakos-Albanians,Arvanites & Greeks,The studies.ISBN ISBN: 9789600801729,Ethnikē bibliothēkē Των Hetaireia Makedonikōn Spoudōn,Makedonika apomnēmoneumata kai diplomatika paraskēnia.,Aphieroma, 1821-1871 Των Dēm. Gr Tsakōnas,Thessaliká chroniká, Megistias ( talk) 15:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes they were lords and you must know they were and are lords of Greece as well ,read famous Arvanites -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I may report you to administrator but I do not like the role of spy, so I hope they see you and dam you -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Apologias for insulting Albanians as Turkish Islamist etc very sick and racist view of yours -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 13:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody tell me, why in Albanian most places have at least two or more names? See: Shkodër/Shkodra, Vlorë/Vlora, Prizren/Prizreni, Kosovë/Kosova, Enver/Enveri, Prishtinë/Prishtina. I see, e.g. that most people say "Kosova" when they are talking about this part of the world. What does "Kosovë" stand for? Thought it was the difference between the Gheg and Tosk dialects, but somebody told me it's rather the distinction between the definite and the indefinite form. My questions are:
Thanks a lot for any help! -- 88.117.30.189 ( talk) 12:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Albanian nouns change their spelling to form the indefinite rather than accommodate a particle, e.g, lepur ("rabbit"), lepuri ("the rabbit"). This is also true for names of places and personal names. -- 136.183.240.185 ( talk) 03:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Most are a secondary source and not my imagination, this is the reality and I may provide further evidence if you wish so -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I will remind a old Albanian or Epirotic song
‘’Jemi ketu ne dhene tene Qe pa pate lere diell e hene.’’
‘’We are here in our country Since the moon and the sun was not born ‘’-- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 13:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
i/e verdhë = yellow i/e gjelbër= green
Is that correct? I don't know any Albanian but it seems to be the opposite for Romanian (verde=green, galben=yellow) and other Romance languages. Since Albanian is Indo-European, could someone have mixed up the table? Balkan Fever 02:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes i verdhë is yellow and i gjelbër is green. This needs to be corrected - the etymology is shared with fr. vert sp. verde etc but the meaning changed to yellow at some time. Todosmentira ( talk) 13:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I think in some accents, the adjective "i verdhë" is used to mean "green." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.183.240.185 ( talk) 04:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Since this is the Albanian page, only one language from each branch of IE is necessary. Including Latin and Romanian is fine as Romanian and Albanian seem to share some substratum vocabulary. French, Italian, and other Romance languages are not needed for this table. Azalea pomp ( talk) 07:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I will add the following sourced statement in the article, I welcome any constructive suggestions : During Ottoman Empire in classification of "millet", the religion defined national community and Greek orthodox Albanians were classified as Greeks while muslims as Turkish .Generally to Albanian were denied linguistic rights in their language,so in 1878 there were 163 Greek schools and 80 Turkish but not Albanian schools in Berat , Gjirokater and Vlore.In Korca the lessons were conducted in modern Greek while the local loved their own language.
Reference: The question of the education of the Albanians in their own language was a problem posed many times in the reports of American religious missionaries in the Balkans. In June 1896 Reverend Lewis Bond reported that lessons at the Korça (Korcë) school were conducted in modern Greek, while the local people loved their own tongue which they spoke only at their homes. "Can we do anything for them", asked Reverend Bond. His question obviously remained rhetorical, because three years later he sent another, much more extensive, statement on the issues of the language and education of the Albanians in Korça. He wrote that only at the girls' school, set up by the Protestant community, the training was in Albanian and once more claimed there was no American who would not sympathise with the Albanians and their desire to use their own language Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [7]
Reference : The history of modern Albanian identity, like that of other modern Balkan identities, begins during the end of the Ottoman Empire. At this time, the Ottoman system of classification was based on millet, which can be glossed ?religiously defined national community?. Greek Orthodox Albanians were therefore classified as Greeks and Muslim Albanians as Turks. The Orthodox were subject to Hellenization, while the Muslims were denied linguistic rights granted to Christians. Thus, for example, in 1878 there were 80 Turkish schools, 163 Greek schools, and no Albanian schools in the sandjaks of Berat, Gjirokastër, and Vlorë (Jelavich 1983, 85). Source: Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 144.Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 21:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Please feel free of any changes , for me the meaning is clear ?!Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add the following statement in the article, based on the following reference:
It is believed that the parallels between ancient Greek and Albanian language would have occurred early as inheritance from Proto-indo-European without such case found elsewhere in the Indo- European family
Reference: Given that Ancient Greek had both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage and that there are numerous uncertainties about the prehistory of Albanian, it is tempting to think of these Greek-Albanian parallels as innovations that spread from Greek to Albanian, but such a spread would have occurred, if at all, in an early, pre-Balkanizing, period of contact between the languages. Alternatively, the occurrence of both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage in Ancient Greek and Albanian could be taken to warrant positing these as inheritances from Proto-Indo-European, even if they are not found elsewhere in the Indo- European family. Source : Author Brian D Joseph : Is Balkan Comparative Syntax Possible? [Version of August 28, 1998] [10]Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 14:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
What's up with thse weasel words:
"To a small extent, both - mainly Messapian - have left evidence that may in some way liken them to Albanian." Looks to me like: "The attested Messapian writings don't look like what we'd expect proto-Albanian to look like. However, there seem to be a number of sound changes in common. And some cognates between Messapian and Albanian are interestingly close. Messapian was probably not proto-Albanian, but we hope it was an IE variant somehow close to proto-Albanian. Even though the Messapian texts do not appear to be proto-Albanian."
However the table of Messapian-Albanian cognates looks like it contains errors and speculations along with good correspondances. I don't know how reliable this Wiki text is or what the sources are, after finding sica and mantia---Thracian words---listed as Illyrian. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 11:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
From Pokorny, PIE *deru-: thrak. kalam…n-dar `Platane', ON D£randoj, T£rantoj (*dar-ant-) `Eichst„tt', Z…ndrouma, DindrÚmh `Zeushain', VN 'O-drÚ-s-ai, DrÒsoi, Dru-geri (dru- `Wald'); Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 23:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Can we please help prevent pseudo-linguistics from being mirrored across the internet by Wikipedia clones? Thank you. The anonymous IP will probably return and try to revert the article to include the mish-mash. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 23:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Love you too. Although, this answer hardly gives the impression of somebody trying to introduce nuance. Fighting against Messapian being akin to proto-Albanian, is this what it is all about with you? Here some quotes from Britannica: The language (Messapian) is believed to be related to the extinct Illyrian languages that were spoken on the east side of the Adriatic. and: Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian. A simple conclusion: some published references must exist. It is a pity I don't have this book at my disposal: Orel, Vladimir. A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language: Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian, I suppose here you'll find some valuable references. Rokus01 ( talk) 18:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
However I sympathize with some of your arguments, you are invalidating your stance yourself by picking out the publications that suit you and scoff at anything else. Why should I believe one editor more than another one? If indeed at least part of the edits were supported by sources, it would be against WP:AGF to just erase such edits. Again, I am not in the position to verify at this moment. I am not here to defend bad edits, it just worries me that all reference to the Messapic connection has been erased. The quotes you produced above, for instance, would be a valid start to address the subject. I don't agree with you there is no issue at all, and even a legend (your point of view) is an issue. Why not approach the issue from a neutral stance, and quote arguments in favor and arguments against a Messapic connection? Albanian has been confirmed to be an Indo-European language related to other members of the southeastern branch (indeed excluding Venetic), in a genetic relationship that cuts right through the difference between satem (Armenian-Thacian) and kentum (Greek) languages (satemization has also been described as a sound change by interaction, so why the proximity of Thracian can not be considered separately?). This would make any investigation on the affinity of Albanian with Illyrian languages even more interesting. I am not interested in conclusions, since most conclusions are limited to the point of view of a certain stance. It is arguments, in favor and against, that guarantee NPOV and encyclopedic information. Rokus01 ( talk) 20:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Like I already said, your quotes from Benjamin W. Fortson would be an excellent start. My suggestion is to open a separate section and compile as much as can be supported by different valid sources. Of course, suspicious contributions have no place here. Rokus01 ( talk) 21:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Some of those Messapian-Albanian cognates are sourced, like the one for brention and bilia, which my source (a French journal from 1872) identified with Latin filia, filius, etc. However I don't want to compile the arguments pro and con. I would rather check in on the article and edit away unsourced or improperly compiled material. The Messapian language looks like it sucks dick to me, and I'm not very interested in it after taking a look at a number of the inscriptions. But hey, if some people like it. Thracians were way cooler. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Here I quote some of your corrective edits that might be problematic: [11] and subsequently [12] (deletion of valuable source (E. Polomé) putting nuance on satem classification. Then, already corrupted by your edit, you decide to delete everything: [13] In the original version, most of the "Thracian and Dacian" section was sourced. (most of the other deletions were reinstated by you later: [14]
Here you delete very general sourced information: [15], for instance:
Here you come up with an unsourced statement yourself: [16]
This edit deletes information that could be rephrased with general information quoting the special position of Albanian (for instance using Britannica) [17]
Some information might indeed have been wrongly illustrated quoting wikipedian articles, and other information might indeed have been wrongly linked together by SYNC. Still, it should be verified how this can be solved by rephrasing or by deletion for turning out wp:undue. Rokus01 ( talk) 16:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. I think you already know exactly what you are. Rokus01 ( talk) 07:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the intro has bothered me for sometime now. The tone seems un-encyclopedic and some of the terms used are ambiguous and could lead to misunderstandings. Furthermore, all of that this paragraph is meant to convey is better stated in the very next paragraph (under the Classification heading), making it redundant. I haven't figured out how to reword it (admittedly, I haven't committed much time to it), but I would be just as fine with simply deleting this paragraph.-- William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 19:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
there are a lot of cognates for Albanian mëz even one in Basque it seems: from Pokorny:
"Root / lemma: mend-, mond- (mn•d-?)
English meaning: to suck (breast), to feed; breast
German meaning: `s„ugen, saugen; Brust'; auch `junge, saugende Tiere'
Material: Alb. ment `s„uge, sauge', mezej `s„uge'; mes, mezi m. `Fµllen', mezat `junger Stier, Tierjunges', mezore `junge Kuh' (*mondi¸o-); illyr. PN Menda f. `Stute', ablaut. PN Mandeta; mandos `kleines Pferd', daraus dial. mannus: lat. `kleines gall. Pferd'; Messapian: Juppiter Menzana (*mendi¸o-no-) `Gott, dem Pferde geopfert wurden'; aus dem Illyr. stammt rom. mandius `Fµllen, Rind' (rum. minz `Fµllen', manzat `junge Kuh', nhd. Tirol Manz, Menz `unfruchtbare Kuh', rheinl„nd. Minzekalb, Basque mando `mulus', usw. ); mir. menn (*mendo-), menna´n `junges Tier, Kalb, Fµllen', sekund„r benna´n `K„lbchen, B£cklein, Hirschlein', nir. binnseach, gael. minnseach `Zicklein', cymr. mynnan `kid', corn. min `haedus', bret. menn `junges Tier', menn gavr `Zicklein'; gall. ON Epo-manduo-durum, brit. ON Mandu-essedum (illyr. Lw. ?); wohl auch der bair. FlN Mindel; ahd. manzon m. Pl. `Zitze, Euter'; illyr. gall. mand- k£nnten auch idg. Ablaut mn•d- enthalten.
References: WP. II 232, WH. II 29 f. , Marstrander ZceltPh. 7, 384 f. , Krahe, Wµrzburg. Jb. 1, 189, 202.
Page(s): 729"
- Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 20:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone should start a properly sourced article: Albanian words with Messapian cognates or something. I removed the Messapian-Albanian cognates that the anonymous editor listed in a wiki table in Albanian language because 1) it was apparently unsourced 2) the text contributed by that IP was unencyclopedic and full of errors. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 20:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The satellite map depicting the Republics of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, etc., should be replaced by a similar map, where the borders of the Republic of Kosovo and those of the Republic of Montenegro are clearly exposed. Both of the latter have declared independence from Serbia.-- Arbër| Let's Talk 08:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't see what criteria, if any, have been followed for choosing what lexical items to include in the table. Given that Albanian is an IE language and therefore related to the other languages in the table, the "default" expectation (i.e. if no other purpose is explicitly stated) would be, I think, for the table to illustrate the relationship, and therefore to provide examples that suggest such a relationship. If, on the contrary, the purpose of the table is to make some other point, such as that the genetic relationship between the languages is not always easy to see by looking at many lexical items, then the text preceding the table ought to say so. As this stands now, it's just a table that doesn't say or show anything (or at least not very obviously). You might as well add in a few more languages (such as Basque, Hebrew or Dravidian) for all the difference it would make...
A couple of other suggestions: Glosses should appear next to the Albanian items heading each list of cognates. Inclusion of English in the cognate list is not the same as glossing the item. In fact, English may not even be the best choice of a representative of the Germanic languages to illustrate whatever is being illustrated here (whatever that is - see above), but whether it is or not, the purpose of the gloss is to tell you what the word means, and that of the cognate is to compare the form of the word in a related language. Also, the Albanian words at the top of the list ought to be left-adjusted, like the cognates below, so that they appear aligned, which would facilitate reading of the table; at present they are centred. -- A R King ( talk) 14:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Does this table really show lexical differences? Most of them look like they're probably phonological... -- A R King ( talk) 20:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree about the desirability of a dialect map. -- A R King ( talk) 11:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added a new dialect map. Some of the info is based on the Ethnologue and other academic sources. Struga is Tosk speaking while Debar is Gheg speaking. The rest of northern Macedonia is Gheg. Any suggestions or corrections are welcome. Azalea pomp ( talk) 01:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
doff greek, diff gothic Megistias ( talk) 07:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Restored from:
to former
If the research opinions doesn't fit the subjective opinions of the anon behind 76.189.111.120, then go get yourself a blog, do not use Wikipedia as a scribble board. If seriously wanting to challenge the models described on WP, then start a criticism subsection under Historical presence and location, and use arguments that are citeable from outside sources f.ex. on the net. According to NPOV and NOR, we don't care about the actual truth behind the articles, we care that the article is a complete and coherent reflection about the outside thinking on the topics of the articles, and criticism could fit here as well, but it must be properly done! Said: Rursus ☻ 12:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I will put the dialect information in according to Dialektologjia shqiptare by Jorgji Gjinari, 1970. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The word "damagh" cited in the table of comparisons with other indo-european languages as the Persian word for "nose" is misleading as it is an Arabic loan-word (Arabic meaning: "brain"). The original Persian word is "biní". I have edited the table accordingly. Source: Soleiman Hayyem, New Persian-English Dictionary, Farhange Moaser, Tehran 1991. Danbae ( talk) 19:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I noticed today that it has 10,000,000 as the number however the reference listed totals approximately 6,000,000. Should this be reverted? It looks like the user (68.192.79.227) who made these changes on 8 May 2008 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Albanian_language&diff=prev&oldid=211129433) made a number of unhelpful edits across numerous Albanian-related articles. batobatobato ( talk) 02:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The "Formula e Pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula) from 1462, ("Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit.") was discovered and published in 1915 by Nicolae Iorga in Notes et éxtraits pour servir à l'histoire des croisades au XV-ème siècle (4-ème sèrie, 1453-1576, Bucharest, 1915, p. 194-198).
Another Romanian scholar, Dumitru Todericiu, discovered in 1967 an even older text written in Albanian. He studied microfilms of the Bellifortis manuscript (particularly the text found in the Museum of Chantilly Castle, France) written by Konrad Kyeser around 1380-1405. On page 153v he discovered a text insertion in a weird language. Until then, scholars considered it as a text without an actual meaning, written in an artificial language (see image on the right):
11 ? racha Yze ivenie zabel ? dayte dayti
12 dayze yan yon yan
18 Pagam ragma mathy zagma? perbra
19 Ista aus ausker auskary austkarye zyma bomchay
20 Zewestmus lisne zehanar zehanara zensa
21 Eahem viliant adolcten zeth dorchene zehat stochis
23 Lipre zehamar zehanara zehayssa
29 Deo Gracias
Dumitru Todericiu and professor Dumitru Polena from Bucharest used the small Albanian-German "dictionary" of Arnold von Harff (around 1496-1499), containing 26 words, 8 phrases and 12 numerals, to decipher the text in old Albanian, and after 4 month of working, the following text resulted (in modern Albanian):
11 raha yzë (i) néen n (ie) zabel ? da yt e da yt (t) i
12 da yzë (u) jan jon jan
18 pa ka (ra) ma madhy za gma (nga) ? perbrai
19 Isht (a) ay za (u) ska ra skari ay skary e qima bomche
20 Qé'vesht t'mus lish (n) e që hana (r) qi hana re qen sa
21 E ahem mu lia n't'a do le kten q'eth dörchen a zeh at stochis
23 Lip rezeh a marqëhana ra që ha isha
In English, that is:
A star has fallen in a place inside a forest, distinguish it!
Distinguish the star (from the others); they are ours!
Can you see where the big thunder (/sound/voice) has fallen nearby?
That thunder. (But) it didn't hit (it didn't fallen hitting), it didn't hit, it, which would do
Not to let your ear to believe that the Moon has fallen then,
Try to pull out your hand and grab the one that throws the jet far away;
Ask (invoke) light, if the Moon has fallen and is no longer now
The original Latin context being an astrological one, this is part of an initiation ritual practiced by young Albanians who become men and it's a vestige of the ancient phallic cult, very common in the Balkan peninsula.
The information above was resumed from the following article:
Dumitru Todericiu, An Albanian text older than the "Christening Formula" of 1462, in "Magazin Istoric", nr. 8, Bucharest, November 1967. -- Alex:D ( talk) 19:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I just recently read Pal Engjëlli's manuscript (translated into Albanian by Kristo Frashëri) and he mentioned efforts to try and eradicate what sounds like a pagan faith that worships the stars. If anybody wants to to, I could and try and post the original Latin script in here. I thought this might still be of interest.-- Gaius Claudius Nero ( talk) 22:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
any native albanian speakers here? i'm listening to the pronunciation clip on Albanian alphabet and i can't hear any difference between ch/q and xh/gj. i'm a trained linguist and i know what a "palatal stop" is supposed to sound like and i don't hear this sound on the recording, i.e. it sounds like the speaker is using ch and xh for both types of sounds. (also, p/t/k sound strongly aspirated in the recording, despite claims i've seen elsewhere that these sounds are unaspirated. also, the r sounds like an approximant, not a flap.) Benwing ( talk) 07:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I think we need a new table of dialect forms from various Albanian dialects which would better show the linguistic diversity. There are sources such as Gjinari, Newmark, and others. I will try to create a table with these forms. Azalea pomp ( talk) 09:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
To better show the dialects, couldn't the dialect map show exactly how the dialects border each other instead of these white spaces. The map would demonstrate dialect distribution, but not the concentration of speakers. Meaning, the colors of the dialects does not mean that other languages are not spoken in certain areas or that Albanian is or is not the majority language. This map just shows in any area speakers of whatever villages or towns found in these areas speak a certain dialect Azalea pomp ( talk) 21:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Really interesting article and, what is more, it seems to be rather unbiased. As a native Greek, I would like to point out that there are a lot more places in continental Greece where Arvanika was a major language than those mentioned in the article. Thebes and many villages in Arkadia, for example. I cannot supply any written sources or web links for this fact (for I have not really searched the subject); I am aware of it from personal communication with elders, including those of my family. I also consider it to be common knowledge of every native Greek who is honest about the history of his country (and proud of it) and is not trying to hide it. Let me mention, though, that the number of people who currently speak Arvanitika is nowhere near what is was, say, 70 years ago, and that I do not think that there are anymore many young people who are fluent at it (but I might be wrong). Of course, someone should try and find valid sources for all these. Finally, it would be very interesting if the article supplied information on the circumstances on which medieval Albanian phyla inhabited Greece during the Middle Ages (I have come across a theory that suggests that regions of continental Greece had been desolated in the 14th century, due to Black Death. This allowed many medieval Albanians to move in Greece peacefully). 79.129.242.100 ( talk) 16:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Anyone think we should start a page about Albanian dialects? Azalea pomp ( talk) 23:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I think in the article we should include a new section regarding the latin element in Albanian language. It is the most influencing foreign language in Albanian dictionary and it is used by scholars to demonstrate their theories regarding the Albanian language evolution. Aigest ( talk) 07:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually trying not to make any mistake I used the exact version found on the materials.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 |
Hey again - Another two cents.
Cheers, kwami 00:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
First of all the phrase "and by smaller numbers of ethnic Albanians in other parts of the southern Balkans, along the east coast of Italy and in Sicily, in southern Greece, and in Germany, Sweden, the United States, Ukraine, and Belgium." is copy paste from Britanica, that means using it is a possible copyright violation.
Apart from that I think that the previous phrasing ( see here) is more NPOV. +MATIA ☎ 10:43, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Arvanites are not ethnic Albanians is a good start... Can you notice any other differences between the two versions? +MATIA ☎ 11:37, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
REX we've been through all these before. The Chams were about 40.000 and they left (let's not get into the reasons now), during the 2nd world war. And the majority of the Cham people were muslims, like the majority of Tosks were christians. All these people are reffered by scholars (for example the editors of Britanica) as Albanians. The majority of "Albanians" (sic) in Greece are not the Chams nor the Albanian workers (since 1992) but the Arvanites. They spoke Arvanitika which some scholars call Albanian, etc. With your search on Albanian language, you 'll see various things that perhaps I've already read, and I think that you'll agree with me. Please give a shot, trying to understand my explanation.
As for Britannica if we could copy-paste it, it would be interesting, but I'm afraid we can't. Read Talk:1911 Encyclopædia Britannica and Wikipedia:1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica. Both the 1911 and the current Britannica are excellent encyclopedias but a) we can't copy-paste from the new one because of copyright (we can't even use the name Britannica for citing the 1911) and b) read WP:PD about bias - I'm not making it up, I'm trying to help you and to discuss that change. +MATIA ☎ 12:42, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm not trying to cover up anything. I've wrote about the ethnic Albanians who came to work in Greece (check my text for the word 1992). Verify with a wikipedia expert what I wrote if you don't believe what I write, or if you can't understand the links I gave you before. PS Ethnologue allows to be cited as a refference and they are linguists. +MATIA ☎ 13:27, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I think the point here is whether the language of Arvanit is albanian or not. The pre-otoman name of Albania was Arbani and even the albanians of that time called themselves Arbaneshe. In greek you can see the change of B->V which makes is Arvani. Also the Arbanesh or Arberesh (with n->r rotacion in southern tosk dialect)which live nowadays in Itali call themselves, Arberesh and not Albanians. This does not exclude the fact that they are of Albanian origin and they speak Albanian language. -
Aigest
10:16, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I'll repeat a question I posed a few months back, in the hope that somebody has an answer. In the audio examples provided, Albanian r definitely sounds like an English alveolar approximant (ɹ), not a Spanish alveolar flap (ɾ) as claimed in the article. Can anyone confirm this? No audio is provided for rr to establish whether it is in fact an alveolar trill (r). Also, gj and q are given as the voiced (ɟ) and voiceless palatal plosive (c) respectively, even though they sound more like the postalveolar affricates dʒ and tʃ rather than true palatal plosives.-- Theathenae 13:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Isn't that
original research? κακιά and μαγκιά sound like /kakja/ and /magja/ to me. Also, I was in Cyprus the other day and it sounded quite different (wanna know how)? I'll require a definete source for the presence of those sounds in Greek, or I'll change due to lack of sources. Omniglot denies the existence of those phonemes
Rex(
talk)
15:55, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Not really, I have lived in Greece for 11 years, I know how it's pronounced, just in the same way that I know that in Tirana, qen (dog) is pronounced exectly like the Greek word κεν (your version). It is pronounced chen in Shkoder I think, it depends on the dialect. Do find a source. There is no evidence to support the existence of those phonemes in Greek.
Rex(
talk)
17:01, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
According to Omniglot, if there were a Greek word κεν, it would be pronounced /kεn/. Maybe that should be made clear in the article
Greek language, that palatat plosives don't exist in Greek. If they do, please provide evidence.
Rex(
talk)
17:22, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Really, then why don't we add
clicks to the
Greek language article? There is no source that says that there isn't. This is an encyclopaedia, you don't build encyclopaedias by natural deduction. It's not for me to prove that those sounds don't exist. It's for you to prove that they do exist.
Rex(
talk)
17:28, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Oops, would you look at
that. The
University of London obviously has no problem in saying that "q" is a voiceless palatal plosive.
Rex(
talk)
17:41, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Not really. Omniglot is a private website run by an amateur polyglot. The UCL obviously carries more weight, AND says that r is a voiced alveolar tap, that rr is voiced alveolar trill, that gj is a voiced palatal plosive, that q is a voiceless palatal plosive etc. Who shall prevail?
WP:RC
Rex(
talk)
17:46, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I guess so. What a pity that I created and added those
tables to the
Greek language article claiming the existence of palatal plosives in Greek. I kinda knew that all along :-)))
Rex(
talk)
17:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
What do you mean? I was just begining to doubt how much truth there is in my "original research" on the
Greek language.
Rex(
talk)
17:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Umm, if κ and γκ are palatal before ε, but not elsewhere, and there is no [k] or [g] before ε, then they're allophones, not phonemes. You could as easily claim that English has palatal stops in words like key, but it would be inappropriate to add them has separate consonants. kwami 23:34, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, should have said "before ε, η, υ, and ι". Palatal before front vowels, velar elsewhere. This is very common allophony. It could lead to a phonemic split eventually, as it did in English and the Romance languages.
Also, I wouldn't place too much confidence in the University of London page either. (Omniglot truly is unreliable, so we need not even go there except to get ideas to check out elsewhere.) The problem is that it is very common to give 'close enough' phonemic correspondances, and this page appears to be a homework assignment for an elementary linguistics class. The author could easily have copied the example from some other source without knowing anything of the language. (They might have had the palatal symbols merely for convenience, like you see for the Indic languages, and the author could have taken them at face value and added unjustified IPA descriptions. This happens all the time!) Or s/he could have simplified things to make the problem more accessible to the students. What you really need is a detailed phonetic description of these sounds, rather than just IPA labels. Indic langages don't have palatal stops, even though they're listed with the phonemes /c/ and /ɟ/ in dozens of references. I'm not trying to claim that Albanian doesn't have these sounds - I've never heard the language - but this isn't a convincing reference. However, there would be no need for the letters q and gj if they weren't phonemes, so I think the alphabet itself is reasonably good evidence that they are somehow different from ç and xh. And without any better reference, we might as well leave them as palatals. I just think we should confirm this if we can. kwami 23:54, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, I take some of that back. If Rex can attest that Albanian qen is pronounced as Greek κεν (that is, that it is a pure stop and not aspirated or an affricate), and furthermore that q is pronounced the same way before all other Albanian vowels, then this would be confirmation of the existance of palatal stops in Albanian, even if technically original research that should be supported elsewhere if possible. kwami 23:58, 9 November 2005 (UTC)
I just downloaded the files (they weren't playable in IE either), and yes, they sure do sound like affricates, not stops. The sound quality isn't the best, and they're said rather quickly, though. Rex, if you can find sound samples of Mandarin, could you listen to retroflex zh vs. alveolo-palatal j, and tell us if that's anything like the difference between Albanian ç and q? kwami 21:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
The Chinese zh and j don't exist in Albanian. I have listened to both of them. Especially the j, it is totally different from q. Chinese J sounds more like /ts/.
Rex(
talk)
21:20, 11 November 2005 (UTC)
I'm moving this discussion over from my talk page so everyone has access to it. kwami 19:42, 12 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I saw your edits to
Albanian language. I'm concerned that they may be a bit
original research. I have a recent Albanian grammar book in front of me right now and it clearly says that there exists a "gjinore" (genetive) and a "dhanore" (dative). If you look at
Balkan linguistic union#Case system, it says that in the Balkan languages, the genitive and dative cases (or corresponding prepositional constructions) are merged, it doesn't say that a genetive case does not exist. You say that the equivalent of a genitive is formed by using the prepositions i/e/të/së with the dative. Your version seems to imply that a genetive does not exist. While this may be true as far as linguists are concerned, it's a rather novel way to look at it, since the genetive is listed in every Albanian gramar book. Also, if you look at
Romanian grammar, they list a genetive there as well. Now I'm no linguist, but it does seem like original research and would make Wikipedia stand out like white amongst black if this novel apprach is taken.
Rex(
talk)
12:29, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Yes, but it also may not. This all seems like original research to me. In Romanian (and I know this for a fact) nominative and accusative are always identical and genetive and dative are always identical. Why can we say that Romanian has two cases instead of four. The Balkan Sprachbund is about the two cases being identical. That doesn't mean that the genetive no longer exists.
Rex(
talk)
20:08, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
Maybe, however, on what authority are we saying that this "one case" is called dative and not genetive. It could be the other way around... After all, in Greek the "one case" is the genetive (modern greek).
Rex(
talk)
20:47, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
You say: "The equivalent of a genitive is formed by using the prepositions i/e/të/së with the dative.". This seems to me that it is not exact. i/e/të/së are called "nyje përaparme" that can be translated as "preposited articles" and, as you surely know, are used also with the adjectives. Prepositions are called "parafjala" and are for exemple nga, tek, në, nëpër, me, për and so on.
I have in front of me a grammar written by Gjovalin Shkurtaj where cases are listed as five (nominative, accusative, dative, genitive and ablative). Gjovalin Shkurtaj was listed in the article we are discussing as a well known albanologist (the old article stated: ...and Gjovalin Shkurtaj who is probably the most distinguished socio-linguist in Albania today. He is the head of the Department of Linguistics at Tirana University). Now the Albanology section has been deleted.
I think that Kwami's point of view on the dative-genitive merging is substantially correct, but it is a linguistical point of view and contrasts with the sense that Albanians have of their own language. They are tought at school that Albanian has five cases and will be surprised to read that they have only four (and would regard it as an error).
With respect to all.
ninonino, 13 November 2005 (UTC).
I don't see the point of the extensive table. I understand that it is useful to put Albanian in its Indo-European context, but in a general encyclopedia article like this, it is pointless to include every IE language you can think of, unless it makes a particular point: if, for example, some Albanian form can only be connected to Tocharian or Old Prussian and no other attested IE form. I have trimmed the table, but it could probably stand further trimming. The languages that are most relevant are: representatives of several IE branches (ideally as old as possible, so Latin rather than French etc.), and languages which have been in contact with Albanian since IE unity, notably Greek, South Slavic, Romanian, and Italian (to show borrowings). But the current table doesn't show borrowings.... -- Macrakis 16:09, 27 December 2005 (UTC)
This paragraph:
Some eminent scholars in the field of Albanian language have been Johann Georg von Hahn, Franz Bopp, Gustav Meyer, Norbert Jokl, Eqrem Çabej, Stuart Edward Mann, Carlo Tagliavini, Wacław Cimochowski, Eric Pratt Hamp, Agnija Desnickaja, Martin Camaj and Gjovalin Shkurtaj. Gjovalin Shkurtaj is probably the most distinguished socio-linguist in Albania today, and he is the head of the Department of Linguistics at Tirana University.
used to be in the article. If anyone wants perhaps it can be re-phrased and re-inserted. talk to +MATIA 13:40, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I listed it in the references, but according to [1]:
I don't remember if the book's author states which sort of Albanian (s)he is teaching. The back cover only says "Albanian": [2] One can see a few sample pages here (perhaps this is a temporary link which won't work for you, but you can follow the "excerpt" link at [3] ) Apokrif 13:55, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
The purple like color of "çiklamin" [4] is etymologically explained with the Ancient Greek kyklā́mīnos. It is used in nowadays Albanian to describe the colour which is more specifically a mixture between purple and pink.
looks to me like the words for green and yellow are around the wrong way in the table for proto indo european languages gjelber is surely yellow (not green) (I'm making this guess based on gelb being yellow in german) EdwardLane ( talk) 15:08, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
The Latin word for scarlet, coccinus is a loan from Greek kokkinos -> kokkos (kermes berries), Welsh has coch for red, and Albanian has kuq. Are kuq, kokkos, and coch cognates or are the Albanian and Welsh terms borrowed from Latin? It would be interesting if someone could find out. Imperial78 09:18, 1 April 2006 (UTC)
Albanian zi and Welsh du /di/ sound so similar that if they are not cognates from PIE does anyone have an alternative explanation? Xhyljen 12:34, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
Most probably the adjective i/e zi (black) derives from the word siyah(black) from Persian (Farsi) language, also an Indoeuropean language. Also in Turkish language siyah stands for black and they loaned this word from Farsi (Persian/Iranian language). This, at the same time, explains how this word came into Albanian language, from influences of the Ottoman Empire (mid. 15th century- early 20th century). ( Pirro i epirit ( talk) 16:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC))
All you need to do is scroll down one post, but here it is: Albanian zi 'black' (notice the fuller plural forms zinj, zeza) is from reconstructed Proto-Albanian *džedi, from Indo-European *gwed-, which gave OE cwēad "bad", MHG quāt "dirt", Lith gé(.)da "shame", OSl gadǔkǔ "disgusting", gadǔ "reptile, worm"
Welsh du "dark", cognate with Irish dub, is from Proto-Celtic *dubios, which is akin to E deaf, and Gk typhlós "blind".
Flibjib8 17:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
i have added blertë to the list with gjelbër for 'green', and i have annotated the notes, since only kuq, verdhë, and gjelbër are borrowings (coccum, viridis, galbinus). the similarities with welsh are due to both languages borrowing the same words from latin, which therefore leads to the similarities between romanian and italian with albanian, since both are descendants of latin. though this does not include Alb zi 'black' and Welsh du, which are from entirely different sources (see below).
specific etymologies are:
- muaj 'month' < Proto-Albanian *môsnja; cf. Eng month, Lat mensis, OIr mí, Skt más, Arm amis, OSl měšecĭ, Lith ménesis
- ri 'new, young, recent' < Proto-Albanian *rija; cf. ON o,rr "quick", OSax aru "id"
- nënë 'mother'; cf. Welsh nain 'grandmother', Lat nonna 'id', Gk nânnê 'maternal aunt', nínnê 'grandmother', Bulg neni 'the other one', Russ nyanya 'child's guardian', Farsi nana 'mother', Skt naná 'mother'
- motër < Proto-Albanian *mâter; cf. Eng mother, Lat māter, Ir mathair, Gk mátér, OSl mati, Skt mātá, Toch A macar
- natë < Proto-Albanian *nakti; cf. Eng night, Lat nox, Welsh nos, Gk nýx, OSl noštĭ, Lith naktìs, Skt nákt, Hitt nekuz, Toch A naktim
- hundë - ?
- tre < Proto-Albanian *treje; cf. Eng three, Lat tres, Ir trí, etc.
- zi/zezë < *zëi < Proto-Albanian *džedi; cf. OEng cwéad 'bad', MHGer quât 'dirt', Lith géda 'shame', OSl gadǔkǔ 'disgusting', gadǔ 'reptile, worm'
- blertë < OAlb blerë < Proto-Albanian *blôra; cf. Lat flōrus 'shining, bright', Welsh blawr 'grey'
- gjelbër < German gelb 'yellow'
- ujk < OAlb ulk < Proto-Albanian *(w)ulka; cf. Lat lupus 'wolf', Gk lýkos, Skt vr.ka, Lith vil~kas, Latv vìlks, OSl vlŭkŭ, Av vəhrkō, Eng wolf, Welsh gweilgi 'torrent', Russ volk
Welsh du 'dark, black', akin to Old Irish dub, comes from Proto-Celtic dubos; cf. E deaf, Gk typhlós 'blind'
71.74.209.129 03:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Flibjib8 21:43, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
hundë means 'nose' but is not in any way related to most of the words for nose in the other indo-european languages. i didn't make the chart, but i can only assume the purpose of putting it in, just like comparing 'kuq', nënë, or blertë is to show words that are not related to most other indo-european languages, to convey the mixture in albanian.
i sadly do not have access right now to orel's albanian etymological dictionary, so i can't give you an etymology of the word. all i can say is that the initial h- probably comes from an sk-, based on what else i know about albanian etymology. so, clearly, no relation to NOSE.
Flibjib8 21:34, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I rewrote the history section, though I kept a portion of it at the end. 71.74.209.129 03:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
i have added specific information about the major characteristics that differentiate Tosk and Gheg and a number of other characteristics for other dialects in the dialect section. nothing was lost or altered. Flibjib8 19:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
On my browser (Firefox 1.5.0.6) The "Indoeuropean languages" box overlaps the section comparing the Albanian language to other Indoeuropean languages. Looks really bad. If the problem isn't just a prob with my browser, then perhaps judicious use of <p><br clear="all" /></p> might help. Ling.Nut 02:31, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The aritcle states that the word 'jan' is delivered through the roma gipsies. Well, i think that the word 'jan' is from the persian word of same meaning, as the word is used in turkish, urdu, persian, hindi and some dialects of kurdish, and that it is delivered to albanian through the ottoman empire. Hamid, 21:30, 28 september 2006 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.51.211.94 ( talk • contribs) 19:29, 28 September 2006 (UTC)
for whoever added the "vocabulary" section, you should be aware that you are quoting dated material. i realize that it is accepted practice to quote this bit as often as possible when in Albania, as if to establish some sort of solid link to the past, but to presume that 1) Albanian has not significantly changed in 2000 years and that 2) the modern Albanian word forms, which if truly represented in the names listed (Thetis, Dhea, Malion, etc), would discount all etymological reconstructions that attach it to indo-european, is entirely preposterous.
Take for instance Thetis, supposedly equivalent to Alb det "sea". Notice the fuller forms of Italo-Albanian dejt, dejët and dialectal dēt, both of which indicate a much larger or fuller form, and this probably just 1000 years ago. The typical reconstruction is *deubeta, related to English depth. Further, a modern d cannot come from a former th. The two cannot be linked.
please research and then revise or remove this section or i will do it for you.
Flibjib8 04:37, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
What are these mystical 12th century manuscripts that are mentioned in the vocabulary section? Does the one allegedly found in the Vatican mean the same one that was "found" couple of years ago and then revealed as a hoax? The Athonite manuscript was also news to me. Does it really mean (Balkan)Albanian or rather Caucasian Albanian? I would like to see the sources.
213.216.208.231
10:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
BTW, "la lingua Albanesca" cannot be Latin, since Latin does not have article "la". 213.216.208.231 09:53, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I can agree with the fact that trying to explain old words with actual Albanian is a little bit difficult, but also there are cases that some of the old words have not passed many changes through milleniums. For example number three, or day, night, mother. In the case the name Dhemetra, is very logic to explain it with dhe-metra, which means earth-mother.
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetra you can see even the link where dheghom is I.E name for earth and it is still used in Albanian in the form of "Dhe". And for the change matera-moter (sister) in Albanian is a well known fact and you can find o lot of articles as a reference.
Another explanation you can find for the goddes Aphrodite, which in Albanian language is the name of the star and explains that the day is approaching(afro-approaching dit-day). The people used with astronomy which know the position of the planet and its appearance on the sky can see the explanation there. This star(planet) in the sky starts shining when the day is approaching. -
Aigest
10:51, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
who here besides me sees a similarity to the finnish and french languages? because from what i see, most albanian place names always have those two dots on them, like most finnish place names, Example: Kotla-Jaarve, and i also noticed a similarity between written shiqp and the french language in a book about albania i read. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.175.1.237 ( talk) 16:41, 15 January 2007 (UTC).
The dialects section is repetitious, unclear (multiple dialects are one dialect), and could be better organized. — Largo Plazo 18:30, 18 January 2007 (UTC)
History section says that the cognates with Illyrian are few. Have anyone tried to map the cognates with Dacian and the cognates with Thracian? Rursus 07:56, 14 March 2007 (UTC)
Megistias ( talk) 21:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Most sources list is an an alveolar tap, but are there any sources which list it as an alveolar approximant? azalea pomp 07:45, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
The table of comparisons is fouled up. The columns for Albanian words often align with the wrong other languages columns. The person who created the table should fix it. Or it should be totally removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.146.40.86 ( talk • contribs) 21:34, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
If you take a look here: [ [5]] you can see that bear (the animal) in Gaulish is believed to be pronounced Artiu. In Albanian it's called Ari or Ariu. Thought it was an interesting find :-) 213.112.155.156 20:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The current article ( as of 13:47, 5 July 2007 UTC) mentions 15 million speakers in the lead, and 10 to 15 million in the infobox. But the reference used (Ethnologue) mentions 6 million.
Regardless of what the real number is, it would be much appreciated if the text is modified to match the reference, or if the reference is changed or amended to explain the discrepancy. I didn't edit it myself because I'm not familiar with the topic and didn't find any discussion about this issue in the talk pages to guide me. - Thanks already, Ev 19:00, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
Does tha include imaginary speakers that exist only in the fevered imagination of albanian nationalists? someone please fix this and give a correct figure. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.23.131.247 ( talk • contribs) 07:41, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the following from the article: Note: Aside from kuq, verdhë, and gjelbër, these Albanian words are directly inherited from Proto-Indo-European. Albanian motër is cognate with the Indo-European root for "mother", probably the result of a derived form (< *motrë < *mātrā < through *māterea) meaning "maternal", and by extension "uterine sister", akin to Welsh modryb "aunt, lit. mother's sister". Note: That Albanian "moter" is akin to Welsh "modryb" is a complete flight of fancy. Also for the information of people who do NOT know Albanian: "gjelber" does NOT mean "giallo" or "yellow"; and "verdhe" does NOT mean "verde" or "green" !!! Rather the other way round! Why don't you consult Albanian -speaking natives instead of brandishing those "facts"? I corrected you once and you decided to cancel my editing but your table still contains mistakes! Can I trust the rest of this article?
I can't tell where the discussion begins and where the content ends so I removed it all. Please keep discussion on the talk page and not in the article.
Note: If you cannot cite your sources, the info shouldn't be included at all
-- M2Ys4U ( talk) 01:41, 19 July 2007 (UTC)
That Albanien derives from Illyrian is of course a current theory, but saying that "Most scholars believe that Albanian derives from the Illyrian language" is a bit too strong. Most scholars, in my experience, are very cautious on the topic of classificating Albanian. Personally, I also think the Illyrian theory may be the most likely, but saying that most scholars think so is a bit strong. JdeJ 17:01, 8 August 2007 (UTC)
As the ISO 639-3 code "als", which is used for years by the Alemannic German wikipedia http://als.wikipedia.org/ , had recently been assigned to Tosk Albanian, we have an inconsistency which is discussed at Wikipedia talk:User categories for discussion (and elsewhere). A simple solution could be to file a request to have the Albanian codes changed, to ones beginning with "sq" rather than "al".
code | now | better |
---|---|---|
alb | Albanian ISO 639-2 | Albanian |
aln | Gheg | Low Alemannic German (Niederalemannische Sprache) |
aae | Arbëreshë | Arbëreshë? |
aat | Arvanitika | Arvanitika? |
als | Tosk | Alemannic German (Alemannische Sprache) or Alsatian |
sqe | - | Arbëreshë? |
sqb | - | Arbëreshë? |
sqg | - | Gheg |
sqi | Shqip Albanian | Shqip Albanian |
sqr | - | Soqotri |
sqt | Soqotri | Tosk |
sqv | - | Arvanitika? |
Does this make sense? -- Matthead discuß! O 05:18, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
But Albanian is notabily higher developed and more noble than any slavic language, especially than the serbian one which has been created during the 1900-s.
What the heck does that mean? I'm pretty sure "higher developed and more noble" is not an accepted philological description. I smell Albanian nationalism. Borkingchikapa 15:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
One site, www.krysstal.com/langfams says that Albanian falls within the Illyric language branch, along with the dead languages Illyric and Mesapian. I haven't checked other sources but if others might, I propose this heading be changed and that the extinct languages be added.
Parmadil 05:16, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The Thracian Language: "An ancient language of Southern Balkans, belonging to the Satem group of Indo-European. This language is the most likely ancestor of modern Albanian (which is also a Satem language), though the evidence is scanty. 1st Millennium BC - 500 AD." Megistias ( talk) 22:17, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
In the literature of Pjeter Bogdani Albanian(Shqip) also was addressed as Epirotic language although written in Gege dialect-- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:15, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Cuneus Prophetarum (The Band of the Prophets) of Pjeter Bogdani Albanian Academy of Science 2005 was written in Italian and Epirotic language , the Albanian language was addressed often as Epirotic or “Shqip” -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Jo,No or Oxi, do not pervert the source -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:47, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
He lived 17 century and can not be an Albanian nationalist -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:25, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
No, are not primary source and not my original work, if you care to read the books, read also primary and secondary source controversy. I am leaving your last version and stop racism and insulting me , can you tell me you image of normal person?!-- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 12:21, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Turkalbanians and Turkalbanian language.These were also the names for 500 years because of the Connection of Albanians with islam and their great roles in the Ottoman empire as lords.Source,Sarandos Kargakos-Albanians,Arvanites & Greeks,The studies.ISBN ISBN: 9789600801729,Ethnikē bibliothēkē Των Hetaireia Makedonikōn Spoudōn,Makedonika apomnēmoneumata kai diplomatika paraskēnia.,Aphieroma, 1821-1871 Των Dēm. Gr Tsakōnas,Thessaliká chroniká, Megistias ( talk) 15:53, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes they were lords and you must know they were and are lords of Greece as well ,read famous Arvanites -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:23, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
I may report you to administrator but I do not like the role of spy, so I hope they see you and dam you -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:28, 26 December 2007 (UTC)
Apologias for insulting Albanians as Turkish Islamist etc very sick and racist view of yours -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 13:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Could somebody tell me, why in Albanian most places have at least two or more names? See: Shkodër/Shkodra, Vlorë/Vlora, Prizren/Prizreni, Kosovë/Kosova, Enver/Enveri, Prishtinë/Prishtina. I see, e.g. that most people say "Kosova" when they are talking about this part of the world. What does "Kosovë" stand for? Thought it was the difference between the Gheg and Tosk dialects, but somebody told me it's rather the distinction between the definite and the indefinite form. My questions are:
Thanks a lot for any help! -- 88.117.30.189 ( talk) 12:22, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Albanian nouns change their spelling to form the indefinite rather than accommodate a particle, e.g, lepur ("rabbit"), lepuri ("the rabbit"). This is also true for names of places and personal names. -- 136.183.240.185 ( talk) 03:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Most are a secondary source and not my imagination, this is the reality and I may provide further evidence if you wish so -- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 19:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I will remind a old Albanian or Epirotic song
‘’Jemi ketu ne dhene tene Qe pa pate lere diell e hene.’’
‘’We are here in our country Since the moon and the sun was not born ‘’-- Besa Arvanon ( talk) 13:21, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
i/e verdhë = yellow i/e gjelbër= green
Is that correct? I don't know any Albanian but it seems to be the opposite for Romanian (verde=green, galben=yellow) and other Romance languages. Since Albanian is Indo-European, could someone have mixed up the table? Balkan Fever 02:57, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes i verdhë is yellow and i gjelbër is green. This needs to be corrected - the etymology is shared with fr. vert sp. verde etc but the meaning changed to yellow at some time. Todosmentira ( talk) 13:29, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
I think in some accents, the adjective "i verdhë" is used to mean "green." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.183.240.185 ( talk) 04:12, 26 January 2010 (UTC)
Since this is the Albanian page, only one language from each branch of IE is necessary. Including Latin and Romanian is fine as Romanian and Albanian seem to share some substratum vocabulary. French, Italian, and other Romance languages are not needed for this table. Azalea pomp ( talk) 07:19, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I will add the following sourced statement in the article, I welcome any constructive suggestions : During Ottoman Empire in classification of "millet", the religion defined national community and Greek orthodox Albanians were classified as Greeks while muslims as Turkish .Generally to Albanian were denied linguistic rights in their language,so in 1878 there were 163 Greek schools and 80 Turkish but not Albanian schools in Berat , Gjirokater and Vlore.In Korca the lessons were conducted in modern Greek while the local loved their own language.
Reference: The question of the education of the Albanians in their own language was a problem posed many times in the reports of American religious missionaries in the Balkans. In June 1896 Reverend Lewis Bond reported that lessons at the Korça (Korcë) school were conducted in modern Greek, while the local people loved their own tongue which they spoke only at their homes. "Can we do anything for them", asked Reverend Bond. His question obviously remained rhetorical, because three years later he sent another, much more extensive, statement on the issues of the language and education of the Albanians in Korça. He wrote that only at the girls' school, set up by the Protestant community, the training was in Albanian and once more claimed there was no American who would not sympathise with the Albanians and their desire to use their own language Antonina Zhelyazkova 1999.. International center for minority study and intercultural relations. Sofia .BULGARIA [7]
Reference : The history of modern Albanian identity, like that of other modern Balkan identities, begins during the end of the Ottoman Empire. At this time, the Ottoman system of classification was based on millet, which can be glossed ?religiously defined national community?. Greek Orthodox Albanians were therefore classified as Greeks and Muslim Albanians as Turks. The Orthodox were subject to Hellenization, while the Muslims were denied linguistic rights granted to Christians. Thus, for example, in 1878 there were 80 Turkish schools, 163 Greek schools, and no Albanian schools in the sandjaks of Berat, Gjirokastër, and Vlorë (Jelavich 1983, 85). Source: Ammon, Ulrich(Editor). Sociolinguistics. Berlin, , DEU: Mouton de Gruyter (A Division of Walter de Gruyter & Co. KG Publishers), 2006. p 144.Dodona -- Burra ( talk) 21:41, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Please feel free of any changes , for me the meaning is clear ?!Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 10:12, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I would like to add the following statement in the article, based on the following reference:
It is believed that the parallels between ancient Greek and Albanian language would have occurred early as inheritance from Proto-indo-European without such case found elsewhere in the Indo- European family
Reference: Given that Ancient Greek had both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage and that there are numerous uncertainties about the prehistory of Albanian, it is tempting to think of these Greek-Albanian parallels as innovations that spread from Greek to Albanian, but such a spread would have occurred, if at all, in an early, pre-Balkanizing, period of contact between the languages. Alternatively, the occurrence of both the question usage and the "fear"-complement usage in Ancient Greek and Albanian could be taken to warrant positing these as inheritances from Proto-Indo-European, even if they are not found elsewhere in the Indo- European family. Source : Author Brian D Joseph : Is Balkan Comparative Syntax Possible? [Version of August 28, 1998] [10]Dodona-- Burra ( talk) 14:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
What's up with thse weasel words:
"To a small extent, both - mainly Messapian - have left evidence that may in some way liken them to Albanian." Looks to me like: "The attested Messapian writings don't look like what we'd expect proto-Albanian to look like. However, there seem to be a number of sound changes in common. And some cognates between Messapian and Albanian are interestingly close. Messapian was probably not proto-Albanian, but we hope it was an IE variant somehow close to proto-Albanian. Even though the Messapian texts do not appear to be proto-Albanian."
However the table of Messapian-Albanian cognates looks like it contains errors and speculations along with good correspondances. I don't know how reliable this Wiki text is or what the sources are, after finding sica and mantia---Thracian words---listed as Illyrian. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 11:29, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
From Pokorny, PIE *deru-: thrak. kalam…n-dar `Platane', ON D£randoj, T£rantoj (*dar-ant-) `Eichst„tt', Z…ndrouma, DindrÚmh `Zeushain', VN 'O-drÚ-s-ai, DrÒsoi, Dru-geri (dru- `Wald'); Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 23:03, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Can we please help prevent pseudo-linguistics from being mirrored across the internet by Wikipedia clones? Thank you. The anonymous IP will probably return and try to revert the article to include the mish-mash. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 23:08, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Love you too. Although, this answer hardly gives the impression of somebody trying to introduce nuance. Fighting against Messapian being akin to proto-Albanian, is this what it is all about with you? Here some quotes from Britannica: The language (Messapian) is believed to be related to the extinct Illyrian languages that were spoken on the east side of the Adriatic. and: Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian. A simple conclusion: some published references must exist. It is a pity I don't have this book at my disposal: Orel, Vladimir. A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language: Reconstruction of Proto-Albanian, I suppose here you'll find some valuable references. Rokus01 ( talk) 18:42, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
However I sympathize with some of your arguments, you are invalidating your stance yourself by picking out the publications that suit you and scoff at anything else. Why should I believe one editor more than another one? If indeed at least part of the edits were supported by sources, it would be against WP:AGF to just erase such edits. Again, I am not in the position to verify at this moment. I am not here to defend bad edits, it just worries me that all reference to the Messapic connection has been erased. The quotes you produced above, for instance, would be a valid start to address the subject. I don't agree with you there is no issue at all, and even a legend (your point of view) is an issue. Why not approach the issue from a neutral stance, and quote arguments in favor and arguments against a Messapic connection? Albanian has been confirmed to be an Indo-European language related to other members of the southeastern branch (indeed excluding Venetic), in a genetic relationship that cuts right through the difference between satem (Armenian-Thacian) and kentum (Greek) languages (satemization has also been described as a sound change by interaction, so why the proximity of Thracian can not be considered separately?). This would make any investigation on the affinity of Albanian with Illyrian languages even more interesting. I am not interested in conclusions, since most conclusions are limited to the point of view of a certain stance. It is arguments, in favor and against, that guarantee NPOV and encyclopedic information. Rokus01 ( talk) 20:48, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Like I already said, your quotes from Benjamin W. Fortson would be an excellent start. My suggestion is to open a separate section and compile as much as can be supported by different valid sources. Of course, suspicious contributions have no place here. Rokus01 ( talk) 21:36, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
Some of those Messapian-Albanian cognates are sourced, like the one for brention and bilia, which my source (a French journal from 1872) identified with Latin filia, filius, etc. However I don't want to compile the arguments pro and con. I would rather check in on the article and edit away unsourced or improperly compiled material. The Messapian language looks like it sucks dick to me, and I'm not very interested in it after taking a look at a number of the inscriptions. But hey, if some people like it. Thracians were way cooler. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 11:11, 10 February 2008 (UTC)
Here I quote some of your corrective edits that might be problematic: [11] and subsequently [12] (deletion of valuable source (E. Polomé) putting nuance on satem classification. Then, already corrupted by your edit, you decide to delete everything: [13] In the original version, most of the "Thracian and Dacian" section was sourced. (most of the other deletions were reinstated by you later: [14]
Here you delete very general sourced information: [15], for instance:
Here you come up with an unsourced statement yourself: [16]
This edit deletes information that could be rephrased with general information quoting the special position of Albanian (for instance using Britannica) [17]
Some information might indeed have been wrongly illustrated quoting wikipedian articles, and other information might indeed have been wrongly linked together by SYNC. Still, it should be verified how this can be solved by rephrasing or by deletion for turning out wp:undue. Rokus01 ( talk) 16:58, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
Ok, thanks. I think you already know exactly what you are. Rokus01 ( talk) 07:27, 12 February 2008 (UTC)
The second paragraph of the intro has bothered me for sometime now. The tone seems un-encyclopedic and some of the terms used are ambiguous and could lead to misunderstandings. Furthermore, all of that this paragraph is meant to convey is better stated in the very next paragraph (under the Classification heading), making it redundant. I haven't figured out how to reword it (admittedly, I haven't committed much time to it), but I would be just as fine with simply deleting this paragraph.-- William Thweatt Talk | Contribs 19:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)
there are a lot of cognates for Albanian mëz even one in Basque it seems: from Pokorny:
"Root / lemma: mend-, mond- (mn•d-?)
English meaning: to suck (breast), to feed; breast
German meaning: `s„ugen, saugen; Brust'; auch `junge, saugende Tiere'
Material: Alb. ment `s„uge, sauge', mezej `s„uge'; mes, mezi m. `Fµllen', mezat `junger Stier, Tierjunges', mezore `junge Kuh' (*mondi¸o-); illyr. PN Menda f. `Stute', ablaut. PN Mandeta; mandos `kleines Pferd', daraus dial. mannus: lat. `kleines gall. Pferd'; Messapian: Juppiter Menzana (*mendi¸o-no-) `Gott, dem Pferde geopfert wurden'; aus dem Illyr. stammt rom. mandius `Fµllen, Rind' (rum. minz `Fµllen', manzat `junge Kuh', nhd. Tirol Manz, Menz `unfruchtbare Kuh', rheinl„nd. Minzekalb, Basque mando `mulus', usw. ); mir. menn (*mendo-), menna´n `junges Tier, Kalb, Fµllen', sekund„r benna´n `K„lbchen, B£cklein, Hirschlein', nir. binnseach, gael. minnseach `Zicklein', cymr. mynnan `kid', corn. min `haedus', bret. menn `junges Tier', menn gavr `Zicklein'; gall. ON Epo-manduo-durum, brit. ON Mandu-essedum (illyr. Lw. ?); wohl auch der bair. FlN Mindel; ahd. manzon m. Pl. `Zitze, Euter'; illyr. gall. mand- k£nnten auch idg. Ablaut mn•d- enthalten.
References: WP. II 232, WH. II 29 f. , Marstrander ZceltPh. 7, 384 f. , Krahe, Wµrzburg. Jb. 1, 189, 202.
Page(s): 729"
- Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 20:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Someone should start a properly sourced article: Albanian words with Messapian cognates or something. I removed the Messapian-Albanian cognates that the anonymous editor listed in a wiki table in Albanian language because 1) it was apparently unsourced 2) the text contributed by that IP was unencyclopedic and full of errors. Lisa the Sociopath ( talk) 20:52, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
The satellite map depicting the Republics of Albania, Macedonia, Serbia, etc., should be replaced by a similar map, where the borders of the Republic of Kosovo and those of the Republic of Montenegro are clearly exposed. Both of the latter have declared independence from Serbia.-- Arbër| Let's Talk 08:45, 21 February 2008 (UTC)
I can't see what criteria, if any, have been followed for choosing what lexical items to include in the table. Given that Albanian is an IE language and therefore related to the other languages in the table, the "default" expectation (i.e. if no other purpose is explicitly stated) would be, I think, for the table to illustrate the relationship, and therefore to provide examples that suggest such a relationship. If, on the contrary, the purpose of the table is to make some other point, such as that the genetic relationship between the languages is not always easy to see by looking at many lexical items, then the text preceding the table ought to say so. As this stands now, it's just a table that doesn't say or show anything (or at least not very obviously). You might as well add in a few more languages (such as Basque, Hebrew or Dravidian) for all the difference it would make...
A couple of other suggestions: Glosses should appear next to the Albanian items heading each list of cognates. Inclusion of English in the cognate list is not the same as glossing the item. In fact, English may not even be the best choice of a representative of the Germanic languages to illustrate whatever is being illustrated here (whatever that is - see above), but whether it is or not, the purpose of the gloss is to tell you what the word means, and that of the cognate is to compare the form of the word in a related language. Also, the Albanian words at the top of the list ought to be left-adjusted, like the cognates below, so that they appear aligned, which would facilitate reading of the table; at present they are centred. -- A R King ( talk) 14:28, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Does this table really show lexical differences? Most of them look like they're probably phonological... -- A R King ( talk) 20:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
I agree about the desirability of a dialect map. -- A R King ( talk) 11:00, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I have added a new dialect map. Some of the info is based on the Ethnologue and other academic sources. Struga is Tosk speaking while Debar is Gheg speaking. The rest of northern Macedonia is Gheg. Any suggestions or corrections are welcome. Azalea pomp ( talk) 01:17, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
doff greek, diff gothic Megistias ( talk) 07:40, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Restored from:
to former
If the research opinions doesn't fit the subjective opinions of the anon behind 76.189.111.120, then go get yourself a blog, do not use Wikipedia as a scribble board. If seriously wanting to challenge the models described on WP, then start a criticism subsection under Historical presence and location, and use arguments that are citeable from outside sources f.ex. on the net. According to NPOV and NOR, we don't care about the actual truth behind the articles, we care that the article is a complete and coherent reflection about the outside thinking on the topics of the articles, and criticism could fit here as well, but it must be properly done! Said: Rursus ☻ 12:23, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I will put the dialect information in according to Dialektologjia shqiptare by Jorgji Gjinari, 1970. Azalea pomp ( talk) 19:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
The word "damagh" cited in the table of comparisons with other indo-european languages as the Persian word for "nose" is misleading as it is an Arabic loan-word (Arabic meaning: "brain"). The original Persian word is "biní". I have edited the table accordingly. Source: Soleiman Hayyem, New Persian-English Dictionary, Farhange Moaser, Tehran 1991. Danbae ( talk) 19:15, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
I noticed today that it has 10,000,000 as the number however the reference listed totals approximately 6,000,000. Should this be reverted? It looks like the user (68.192.79.227) who made these changes on 8 May 2008 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Albanian_language&diff=prev&oldid=211129433) made a number of unhelpful edits across numerous Albanian-related articles. batobatobato ( talk) 02:12, 7 November 2008 (UTC)
The "Formula e Pagëzimit" (Baptismal formula) from 1462, ("Un'te paghesont' pr'emenit t'Atit e t'Birit e t'Spirit Senit.") was discovered and published in 1915 by Nicolae Iorga in Notes et éxtraits pour servir à l'histoire des croisades au XV-ème siècle (4-ème sèrie, 1453-1576, Bucharest, 1915, p. 194-198).
Another Romanian scholar, Dumitru Todericiu, discovered in 1967 an even older text written in Albanian. He studied microfilms of the Bellifortis manuscript (particularly the text found in the Museum of Chantilly Castle, France) written by Konrad Kyeser around 1380-1405. On page 153v he discovered a text insertion in a weird language. Until then, scholars considered it as a text without an actual meaning, written in an artificial language (see image on the right):
11 ? racha Yze ivenie zabel ? dayte dayti
12 dayze yan yon yan
18 Pagam ragma mathy zagma? perbra
19 Ista aus ausker auskary austkarye zyma bomchay
20 Zewestmus lisne zehanar zehanara zensa
21 Eahem viliant adolcten zeth dorchene zehat stochis
23 Lipre zehamar zehanara zehayssa
29 Deo Gracias
Dumitru Todericiu and professor Dumitru Polena from Bucharest used the small Albanian-German "dictionary" of Arnold von Harff (around 1496-1499), containing 26 words, 8 phrases and 12 numerals, to decipher the text in old Albanian, and after 4 month of working, the following text resulted (in modern Albanian):
11 raha yzë (i) néen n (ie) zabel ? da yt e da yt (t) i
12 da yzë (u) jan jon jan
18 pa ka (ra) ma madhy za gma (nga) ? perbrai
19 Isht (a) ay za (u) ska ra skari ay skary e qima bomche
20 Qé'vesht t'mus lish (n) e që hana (r) qi hana re qen sa
21 E ahem mu lia n't'a do le kten q'eth dörchen a zeh at stochis
23 Lip rezeh a marqëhana ra që ha isha
In English, that is:
A star has fallen in a place inside a forest, distinguish it!
Distinguish the star (from the others); they are ours!
Can you see where the big thunder (/sound/voice) has fallen nearby?
That thunder. (But) it didn't hit (it didn't fallen hitting), it didn't hit, it, which would do
Not to let your ear to believe that the Moon has fallen then,
Try to pull out your hand and grab the one that throws the jet far away;
Ask (invoke) light, if the Moon has fallen and is no longer now
The original Latin context being an astrological one, this is part of an initiation ritual practiced by young Albanians who become men and it's a vestige of the ancient phallic cult, very common in the Balkan peninsula.
The information above was resumed from the following article:
Dumitru Todericiu, An Albanian text older than the "Christening Formula" of 1462, in "Magazin Istoric", nr. 8, Bucharest, November 1967. -- Alex:D ( talk) 19:51, 28 November 2008 (UTC)
I just recently read Pal Engjëlli's manuscript (translated into Albanian by Kristo Frashëri) and he mentioned efforts to try and eradicate what sounds like a pagan faith that worships the stars. If anybody wants to to, I could and try and post the original Latin script in here. I thought this might still be of interest.-- Gaius Claudius Nero ( talk) 22:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)
any native albanian speakers here? i'm listening to the pronunciation clip on Albanian alphabet and i can't hear any difference between ch/q and xh/gj. i'm a trained linguist and i know what a "palatal stop" is supposed to sound like and i don't hear this sound on the recording, i.e. it sounds like the speaker is using ch and xh for both types of sounds. (also, p/t/k sound strongly aspirated in the recording, despite claims i've seen elsewhere that these sounds are unaspirated. also, the r sounds like an approximant, not a flap.) Benwing ( talk) 07:08, 1 December 2008 (UTC)
I think we need a new table of dialect forms from various Albanian dialects which would better show the linguistic diversity. There are sources such as Gjinari, Newmark, and others. I will try to create a table with these forms. Azalea pomp ( talk) 09:10, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
To better show the dialects, couldn't the dialect map show exactly how the dialects border each other instead of these white spaces. The map would demonstrate dialect distribution, but not the concentration of speakers. Meaning, the colors of the dialects does not mean that other languages are not spoken in certain areas or that Albanian is or is not the majority language. This map just shows in any area speakers of whatever villages or towns found in these areas speak a certain dialect Azalea pomp ( talk) 21:36, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Really interesting article and, what is more, it seems to be rather unbiased. As a native Greek, I would like to point out that there are a lot more places in continental Greece where Arvanika was a major language than those mentioned in the article. Thebes and many villages in Arkadia, for example. I cannot supply any written sources or web links for this fact (for I have not really searched the subject); I am aware of it from personal communication with elders, including those of my family. I also consider it to be common knowledge of every native Greek who is honest about the history of his country (and proud of it) and is not trying to hide it. Let me mention, though, that the number of people who currently speak Arvanitika is nowhere near what is was, say, 70 years ago, and that I do not think that there are anymore many young people who are fluent at it (but I might be wrong). Of course, someone should try and find valid sources for all these. Finally, it would be very interesting if the article supplied information on the circumstances on which medieval Albanian phyla inhabited Greece during the Middle Ages (I have come across a theory that suggests that regions of continental Greece had been desolated in the 14th century, due to Black Death. This allowed many medieval Albanians to move in Greece peacefully). 79.129.242.100 ( talk) 16:03, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
Anyone think we should start a page about Albanian dialects? Azalea pomp ( talk) 23:20, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
I think in the article we should include a new section regarding the latin element in Albanian language. It is the most influencing foreign language in Albanian dictionary and it is used by scholars to demonstrate their theories regarding the Albanian language evolution. Aigest ( talk) 07:26, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually trying not to make any mistake I used the exact version found on the materials.