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(Moved from Users Talk page)Stop trying to describe African Americans as ONLY descendents from slaves, it is not backed up by majority of sourcing and is not the consensus on the Talk page. If you wish to tweak the wording, seek consensus on the Talk page. But your 'all or nothing' approach is disruptive. Dave Dial ( talk) 14:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC)Edited to reflect this was moved from the Middayexpress Talk page, the edit was to caution the user to stop slow edit warring on this article. Dave Dial ( talk) 15:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
is superior toThe term may also be used to include only those individuals who are descended from African slaves.
You made the change after the wording was already change to compromise with you. Dave Dial ( talk) 15:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To determine which language/wording has the most support/consensus to be used in the
lead/first paragraph of this article, which impacts the
scope of this article, the following straw poll is initiated,
boldly, by myself in an attempt to determine consensus.
Please indicate support by typing *'''Support'''--~~~~ underneath the phrase that an editor believes is best for use in this article. Any editor may include an option if they so wish. Poll should be closed on 16 November 2014.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens of the United States who have total or partial antebellum ancestry from any of the native populations of Africa.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. The term may also be used to include only those individuals who are descended from African slaves. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens of the United States who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.
African Americans constitute the second largest racial and ethnic minority in the United States. Most African Americans are of West and Central African descent and are descendants of enslaved blacks within the boundaries of the present United States. However, some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations, and their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term.
According to the definition used by the US Census African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are residents of the United States having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Some authors restrict the definition to include only those individuals who are descended from ancestors who lived in the United States prior the the American Civil War. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. Several sources specify that the term African-American is exclusive to an ethnicity of those who in whole or in part can trace their ancestry to those who arrived in what is now the United States by the Atlantic slave trade. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves, who form a distinct ethnic group. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
From the straw poll it appears that Option 2 has the most support of editors who chose to make their opinions known in the straw poll. Please comment below.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 15:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Has there been a discussion about this article's name? There are a number of reasons that "Black American" would be more suitable:
A) Most Black Americans prefer the title "Black American" over "African American" - that's according to scientific polling, not me just saying it. B) The corresponding article for White Americans is titled "White American" instead of "European American" C) The vast majority of Black Americans have no African ancestors going back many generations. The slave trade ended in 1808, and consequently very few Africans came to the United States after 1808. D) The term "African American" is somewhat inaccurate when describing black Americans who originate in some other place (e.g. Haiti, Brazil, etc.) Note that white South Africans who come to America are South African Americans, it would be a little bit odd to call them "European Americans" if their ancestors hadn't lived in Europe for centuries.
Plokmijnuhbygvtfcdxeszwaq ( talk) 02:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Note: WP:Common name is policy, and the article should stay titled African American because of that policy. If anyone wants this article moved to a different name, then start a WP:Requested move discussion, and see how well that goes. Flyer22 ( talk) 07:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I changed sub-saharan African to black African in the definition. My definition conforms to the US Census source. I also added East African and North African to the types of Africans that may fall into African American (if they are Americans who identify and are perceived to be black; contrary to popular misconception, some (though not most) North Africans--such as Nubians--are identified as black).
Last time I made these changes, I was assailed with a series of straw person arguments. Please note that I realize "black" is not a biologically sound concept; it is a social concept. Please also note that I realize that the "original" African AMericans (the descendents of slaves) actually do constitute a biologially relevant population, even if the concept "black Africa" as a whole is nonsense biologically speaking. However (though the lede acknowledges that some do not consider those who are not descended from slaves to be AA) the social definition of AA=1)American of 2) black and 3) African descent. Thus, all Africans who identify/are perceived to be black (including Barack Obama, who did not descend from slaves) can be included as African Americans. Steeletrap ( talk) 16:54, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Americans of African descent who are perceived and identify as black (such as Nubian Americans) are African American for all intents and purposes, even if they are of North African rather than sub-Saharan African descent. I recognize that "black" is a nonsense concept biologically, and also vague sociologically. But nonetheless, the definition of African American is grounded in the concept of blackness. As the cited sources indicate, the term means black+African+American. Sub-Saharan African is under-inclusive; it should be changed to the RS supported "American of black African descent." We can note in the lede that "black African" is not a biologically sound concept, but merely a social concept. But there is no excuse for OR and violating the plain language of RS; nor is there any excuse for a definition of AA that leaves out people who identify and are perceived to be AA. (I agree with User:Middayexpress that we should also prominently take note of the more biologically sensible definition of AA: namely, a person who descended partially or fully from African slaves in America.) Steeletrap (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I really think we're misunderstanding each other here. Your arguments regarding biology/genealogy are clearly sound. However, African American is a social rather than biological concept. The fact is that Nubian Americans are Africans, Americans, and are perceived as "black." Therefore, they are African Americans in the relevant (social) sense, even if they do not share common "racial" ancestry with most African Americans.
To clarify the issue further, perhaps you could add an additional source to the lede expanding on the (more genealogically rigorous) definition you favor. Clearly, the concept of "blackness" is intrinsically vague and nonsense biologically. You can note that in the lede. But the social definition (as black African) is the dominant one in the United States, irrespective of its biological merit. Steeletrap ( talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I mean a fourth row can be helpful. I mean you're missing some other notable African-Americans. It can include Edward Brooke (first black US senator), Morgan Freeman (notable African-American actor), Sidney Poitier (first African-American actor to win Oscar), and Sojourner Truth (notable former African-American slave, major slave female model). -- TDKR Chicago 101 ( talk) 03:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Both sources cited in the first sentence of the article, which defines AA, say AA=black African. Yet for some reason we have ignored the RS and presented, in Wikipedia's voice, the claim that African Americans are only sub-saharan Africans. This definition not only defies RS, but sociological reality. Some North African ethnic groups are perceived to be 'black' in the US. Thus, they are African American. Nubian Americans--though certainly not Egyptians generally--are a good example of this.
The argument that AA only refers to descendants of slaves is quite reasonable. Indeed, it's more reasonable--from a genetic and cultural perspective--than the RS definition. (Obviously, from a biological perspective, the notion of a 'black race' is preposterous and even offensive.) But we must defer to RS definitions, which, by the way, reflect social convention more than the 'descendants of African slaves' definition does. ×The alternative definition should be given prominent emphasis in the lede. But it cannot be presented as accepted fact. Nor should the SSA definition be presented as fact. Steeletrap ( talk) 10:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Owing to mixed racial ancestry, a minority of African-Americans look more Caucasian than black. (See passing for some historical context on this phenomenon.) Adding a picture of such an individual would, in my view, more effectively reflect the diversity of the community. This is a sensitive subject and I understand if editors would prefer not to have someone with 'white' features. So, while I am not going to add the picture myself, I am putting the idea out there. Rashida Jones, Mariah Carey, and Soledad O'Brien would all be good candidates for such a picture. Steeletrap ( talk) 10:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
The Chuck Berry picture is currently listed in African_American#In_literature_and_academia. Should we move it to African_American#In_music and add a new picture for lit and academia? There doesn't seem to be enough room, but there is 2 pictures for the music section and none for lit and academia. Would it be good to either expand the music section or take out (or move to elsewhere in the article) one of the pictures? -- Padenton ( talk) 10:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The African_American#In_literature_and_academia section (under the African_American#Cultural_influence_in_the_United_States heading is currently mostly filled with inventors. Are inventors really appropriate for this section, or should this section be moved elsewhere? I'm not really sure if cultural influence would be the best way to include inventors, also whether it would belong under the heading of 'In literature and academia'. Maybe make a new top-level section for notable people of sorts. The Asian American article has a top-level section for 'Notable contributions', maybe we could add a similar section, move the cultural influence section from 'contemporary issues' which also doesn't really feel like it fits. I'd be happy to do the work, just wanted to run it by people.
That was a bit too train of thought...My proposal in summary: We move African_American#Cultural_influence_in_the_United_States from African_American#Contemporary_issues to a new top-level section called 'Notable Contributions' or something along those lines. Split 'In literature and academia' into 2 sections, 'Literature' and 'Inventors' (or 'Science and Technology'). The new top-level section should have a section on 'cultural influences', where we can put subsections on music, culinary arts, maybe put literature in here as well. I'm sure there are other sections we could put under this heading also. Thoughts?-- Padenton ( talk) 10:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Haplogroup I occurs only in
Scandinavia,
Balkans, north-central Europe.
, I conclude that the content about genetics (in that field) is a mistake. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.9.143.181 (
talk) 11:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
This information that I added to the article was deleted:
The studies done by 23andme in these articles and referenced by Henry Louis Gates were done by Kasia Bryc, the same woman who is referenced in the following citation:
I was told that as commercial testing companies, these are unreliable sources, but the source listed above (which is found in this page under Autosomal DNA) obtained its research through a commercial testing company---Affymetrix. These DNA analysis are not unreliable; they are all derived from commercial testing companies; 23andme is generally accurate in terms of DNA (not necessarly their health/genetic disease predisposition statements obviously). Kinfoll1993 ( talk) 22:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
References
{{
cite journal}}
: External link in |journal=
(
help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (
link)
I want to know what other editors think about the inclusion of other groups in the infobox, such as adding groups "British Americans (English Americans, Scottish Americans, Scots-Irish Americans, Welsh Americans)" to the related ethnic groups section, b/c the article and the citations given here (such as one study in the autosomal DNA section) points specifically to United Kingdom dna being the most prevalent European ancestry of Black Americans-and also the predominant groups that settled the South, where most Black Americans reside. The categories "American people of Yoruba descent" or "People of Yoruba descent" being added would reflect the information in the article about the specific African roots of AA. Also, would the category "People of European descent" (per the several autosomal studies and the statements of Gates and copious others) be appropriate, or would it be inappropriate b/c it would be exclusive of many recent African immigrants? I want to ask for consensus before making any such changes to the infobox or categories section. Kinfoll1993 ( talk) 21:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Ragland, James (14 April 2015).
"Black immigrants may change the way we talk about black America". Dallas Morning News.
Take from it what you will about the changing demographics of African Americans.--
RightCowLeftCoast (
talk) 19:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
This is the most appropriate place I could find to ask this but I know it's not the right place. I'm interested to know if Wikipedia should be using 'African American' or 'black' in articles to describe black people. African American seems unnecessarily PC in many cases. Where would I go to find out or discuss this? Thanks. Handpolk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There is an argument that a naming convention, WP:PLURAL, should cause us to choose the plural form. But many American ethnic groups currently have singular titles, and a 4:4 tie vote isn't much of a consensus to change all of these names to the plural. WP:NCET should also apply but it is not very prescriptive. (Read the first four sentences under WP:NCET#Ethnic groups). In March 2015 there was a long move discussion at Talk:Korean Americans that ended with a move to the plural form, but with only a handful of participants. In that discussion, the closer noted the presence of conflicting guidelines. See also Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Presentations and pluralisations of peoples where User:Rjensen argued that the 'adjectival' form of the article title, as in Korean American, was the best. EdJohnston ( talk) 22:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
African American →
African Americans – Applying
Talk:Korean Americans as a precedent and
WP:PLURAL, we should be consistent with other pluralistic titles. I'm not proposing any other alternative titles here. --Relisted.
George Ho (
talk) 21:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
George Ho (
talk) 23:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC) (EDIT: I'm not thrilled about proposing "Black Americans" as alternative because there are light-skinned African Americans. But vote for that if you want. --
George Ho (
talk) 21:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC))
singular works quite well"? The article is not about a WP:SINGLE Black American. The generally used designation for the group of people refers to "Black Americans". Greg Kaye 20:04, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
There should be some mention when referring to the participation of African-Americans in the American Revolution, that the first patriot to give his life, was a black man--Crispus Attucks.
Busslynns ( talk) 22:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)Teri L Malone
The pictures in the infobox needs to be cut down by at least half. Why in the World are there 35 pictures there? If we are going to have 5 pictures per row, I suggest we have at most 4 rows. My preference is this:
Dave Dial ( talk) 21:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
"Some of these were. Slavery, reconstruction, development of the African-American community, participation in the great military conflicts of the United States, racial segregation, and the Civil Rights Movement."
There should be no colon after "were". Could someone fix this?
You mean there should be *a* colon after "were", correct? I'm on it, if still pertinent. ==Mic Morose
Can someone also change all instances of African slaves to enslaved Africans? There is a connotation there. Slavery was a condition forced upon them, not a job occupation.
*{{Cite book |last= Kilson |first= Martin |year= 2014 |title= Transformation of the African American Intelligentsia, 1880–2012 |location= Cambridge, MA |publisher= [[Harvard University Press]] |isbn= 978-0-674-28354-1 }}
The very last paragraph expands on pronunciation in Spanish and Portuguese: "In Latin America, negro, which translates as black is the term generally used to refer and describe black people and, similarly to mulatto, it is not considered offensive at all in these regions. However, it is pronounced differently, with the e (a mid front unrounded vowel in American Spanish: [ˈneɣɾo], and a close-mid front unrounded vowel in Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈneɡɾu]) being closer to a sound that it is intermediate between phonemes found in English words such as pay and egg (in Spanish) or day, city and item (in Portuguese)." It fails to mention, however, that in Spanish the -g- is also pronounced differently, although this is indirectly indicated in the IPA rendering ([ˈne'ɣɾo]).
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Viola Davis#WP:Citation overkill in the lead; also see the section started immediately below that. Flyer22 ( talk) 13:07, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
As seen here and here, I reverted X4n6 twice, and X4n6 reverted me twice, with regard to images being added to the infobox. In my opinion, X4n6 has cluttered the infobox with a lot of unnecessary images. X4n6 has cited WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE for doing so. WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE does not justify such an edit in the least. Flyer22 ( talk) 13:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to intervene in your argument, but I have to point something. If these additional people are notable enough for an infobox, shouldn't they also be mentioned in the text sections? Dimadick ( talk) 19:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
"Believed to be inferior to white people, they were treated as second-class citizens." This is a lazy and meaningless sentence. Black slaves were not citizens of any class. They were legally slaves and were treated as slaves. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 ( talk) 05:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Some such as Maulana Karenga and Owen Alik Shahadah argue African-American is more appropriate, because it accurately articulates geography and historical origin. Thus linking a people to a continent as opposed to an abstract color Both Karenga and Shahadah (who are contemporaries and associates) hold this opinion. The statement is important to this article.-- Inayity ( talk) 06:33, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I restored this article, got rid of the most obvious copyright infringement and began to fix the references. This article needs more work and I'd welcome any help to get it in Wikipedia shape. I think there is much that can be preserved here but the overly promotional language has to go. Liz Read! Talk! 13:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I know "Afro-American" (vs. "African-American") has largely fallen out of use; I wanted to cite for it having been current as recently as the mid-1980s, but I don't see an appropriate place in the article to place such a footnote. Anyway, if someone sees a place to put it, that's the usage by Cornel West throughout his essay "The Paradox of Afro-American Rebellion", p.44-58 in The 60s Without Apology (1985, edited by Sohnya Sayres, Anders Stephanson, Stanley Aronowitz, Fredric Jameson), University of Minnesota Press, ISBN 0-8166-1337-0. - Jmabel | Talk 19:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Should the template contain more or less photos? X4n6 ( talk) 15:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | → | Archive 25 |
(Moved from Users Talk page)Stop trying to describe African Americans as ONLY descendents from slaves, it is not backed up by majority of sourcing and is not the consensus on the Talk page. If you wish to tweak the wording, seek consensus on the Talk page. But your 'all or nothing' approach is disruptive. Dave Dial ( talk) 14:47, 25 October 2014 (UTC)Edited to reflect this was moved from the Middayexpress Talk page, the edit was to caution the user to stop slow edit warring on this article. Dave Dial ( talk) 15:45, 25 October 2014 (UTC)
is superior toThe term may also be used to include only those individuals who are descended from African slaves.
You made the change after the wording was already change to compromise with you. Dave Dial ( talk) 15:11, 25 October 2014 (UTC)According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
To determine which language/wording has the most support/consensus to be used in the
lead/first paragraph of this article, which impacts the
scope of this article, the following straw poll is initiated,
boldly, by myself in an attempt to determine consensus.
Please indicate support by typing *'''Support'''--~~~~ underneath the phrase that an editor believes is best for use in this article. Any editor may include an option if they so wish. Poll should be closed on 16 November 2014.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens of the United States who have total or partial antebellum ancestry from any of the native populations of Africa.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. The term may also be used to include only those individuals who are descended from African slaves. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are citizens of the United States who have total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa.
African Americans constitute the second largest racial and ethnic minority in the United States. Most African Americans are of West and Central African descent and are descendants of enslaved blacks within the boundaries of the present United States. However, some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American, and South American nations, and their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term.
According to the definition used by the US Census African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, are residents of the United States having origins in any of the Black racial groups of Africa. Some authors restrict the definition to include only those individuals who are descended from ancestors who lived in the United States prior the the American Civil War. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. Several sources specify that the term African-American is exclusive to an ethnicity of those who in whole or in part can trace their ancestry to those who arrived in what is now the United States by the Atlantic slave trade. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
African Americans, also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, is an ethnic group of citizens or residents of the United States with total or partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. According to various sources, the term is exclusive to the descendants of African slaves, who form a distinct ethnic group. As a compound adjective, the term is usually hyphenated as African-American.
From the straw poll it appears that Option 2 has the most support of editors who chose to make their opinions known in the straw poll. Please comment below.-- RightCowLeftCoast ( talk) 15:57, 17 November 2014 (UTC)
Has there been a discussion about this article's name? There are a number of reasons that "Black American" would be more suitable:
A) Most Black Americans prefer the title "Black American" over "African American" - that's according to scientific polling, not me just saying it. B) The corresponding article for White Americans is titled "White American" instead of "European American" C) The vast majority of Black Americans have no African ancestors going back many generations. The slave trade ended in 1808, and consequently very few Africans came to the United States after 1808. D) The term "African American" is somewhat inaccurate when describing black Americans who originate in some other place (e.g. Haiti, Brazil, etc.) Note that white South Africans who come to America are South African Americans, it would be a little bit odd to call them "European Americans" if their ancestors hadn't lived in Europe for centuries.
Plokmijnuhbygvtfcdxeszwaq ( talk) 02:41, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Note: WP:Common name is policy, and the article should stay titled African American because of that policy. If anyone wants this article moved to a different name, then start a WP:Requested move discussion, and see how well that goes. Flyer22 ( talk) 07:26, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I changed sub-saharan African to black African in the definition. My definition conforms to the US Census source. I also added East African and North African to the types of Africans that may fall into African American (if they are Americans who identify and are perceived to be black; contrary to popular misconception, some (though not most) North Africans--such as Nubians--are identified as black).
Last time I made these changes, I was assailed with a series of straw person arguments. Please note that I realize "black" is not a biologically sound concept; it is a social concept. Please also note that I realize that the "original" African AMericans (the descendents of slaves) actually do constitute a biologially relevant population, even if the concept "black Africa" as a whole is nonsense biologically speaking. However (though the lede acknowledges that some do not consider those who are not descended from slaves to be AA) the social definition of AA=1)American of 2) black and 3) African descent. Thus, all Africans who identify/are perceived to be black (including Barack Obama, who did not descend from slaves) can be included as African Americans. Steeletrap ( talk) 16:54, 26 December 2014 (UTC)
Americans of African descent who are perceived and identify as black (such as Nubian Americans) are African American for all intents and purposes, even if they are of North African rather than sub-Saharan African descent. I recognize that "black" is a nonsense concept biologically, and also vague sociologically. But nonetheless, the definition of African American is grounded in the concept of blackness. As the cited sources indicate, the term means black+African+American. Sub-Saharan African is under-inclusive; it should be changed to the RS supported "American of black African descent." We can note in the lede that "black African" is not a biologically sound concept, but merely a social concept. But there is no excuse for OR and violating the plain language of RS; nor is there any excuse for a definition of AA that leaves out people who identify and are perceived to be AA. (I agree with User:Middayexpress that we should also prominently take note of the more biologically sensible definition of AA: namely, a person who descended partially or fully from African slaves in America.) Steeletrap (talk) 22:59, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I really think we're misunderstanding each other here. Your arguments regarding biology/genealogy are clearly sound. However, African American is a social rather than biological concept. The fact is that Nubian Americans are Africans, Americans, and are perceived as "black." Therefore, they are African Americans in the relevant (social) sense, even if they do not share common "racial" ancestry with most African Americans.
To clarify the issue further, perhaps you could add an additional source to the lede expanding on the (more genealogically rigorous) definition you favor. Clearly, the concept of "blackness" is intrinsically vague and nonsense biologically. You can note that in the lede. But the social definition (as black African) is the dominant one in the United States, irrespective of its biological merit. Steeletrap ( talk) 23:07, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
I mean a fourth row can be helpful. I mean you're missing some other notable African-Americans. It can include Edward Brooke (first black US senator), Morgan Freeman (notable African-American actor), Sidney Poitier (first African-American actor to win Oscar), and Sojourner Truth (notable former African-American slave, major slave female model). -- TDKR Chicago 101 ( talk) 03:36, 4 January 2015 (UTC)
Both sources cited in the first sentence of the article, which defines AA, say AA=black African. Yet for some reason we have ignored the RS and presented, in Wikipedia's voice, the claim that African Americans are only sub-saharan Africans. This definition not only defies RS, but sociological reality. Some North African ethnic groups are perceived to be 'black' in the US. Thus, they are African American. Nubian Americans--though certainly not Egyptians generally--are a good example of this.
The argument that AA only refers to descendants of slaves is quite reasonable. Indeed, it's more reasonable--from a genetic and cultural perspective--than the RS definition. (Obviously, from a biological perspective, the notion of a 'black race' is preposterous and even offensive.) But we must defer to RS definitions, which, by the way, reflect social convention more than the 'descendants of African slaves' definition does. ×The alternative definition should be given prominent emphasis in the lede. But it cannot be presented as accepted fact. Nor should the SSA definition be presented as fact. Steeletrap ( talk) 10:31, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
Owing to mixed racial ancestry, a minority of African-Americans look more Caucasian than black. (See passing for some historical context on this phenomenon.) Adding a picture of such an individual would, in my view, more effectively reflect the diversity of the community. This is a sensitive subject and I understand if editors would prefer not to have someone with 'white' features. So, while I am not going to add the picture myself, I am putting the idea out there. Rashida Jones, Mariah Carey, and Soledad O'Brien would all be good candidates for such a picture. Steeletrap ( talk) 10:54, 23 February 2015 (UTC)
The Chuck Berry picture is currently listed in African_American#In_literature_and_academia. Should we move it to African_American#In_music and add a new picture for lit and academia? There doesn't seem to be enough room, but there is 2 pictures for the music section and none for lit and academia. Would it be good to either expand the music section or take out (or move to elsewhere in the article) one of the pictures? -- Padenton ( talk) 10:27, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
The African_American#In_literature_and_academia section (under the African_American#Cultural_influence_in_the_United_States heading is currently mostly filled with inventors. Are inventors really appropriate for this section, or should this section be moved elsewhere? I'm not really sure if cultural influence would be the best way to include inventors, also whether it would belong under the heading of 'In literature and academia'. Maybe make a new top-level section for notable people of sorts. The Asian American article has a top-level section for 'Notable contributions', maybe we could add a similar section, move the cultural influence section from 'contemporary issues' which also doesn't really feel like it fits. I'd be happy to do the work, just wanted to run it by people.
That was a bit too train of thought...My proposal in summary: We move African_American#Cultural_influence_in_the_United_States from African_American#Contemporary_issues to a new top-level section called 'Notable Contributions' or something along those lines. Split 'In literature and academia' into 2 sections, 'Literature' and 'Inventors' (or 'Science and Technology'). The new top-level section should have a section on 'cultural influences', where we can put subsections on music, culinary arts, maybe put literature in here as well. I'm sure there are other sections we could put under this heading also. Thoughts?-- Padenton ( talk) 10:54, 12 March 2015 (UTC)
Haplogroup I occurs only in
Scandinavia,
Balkans, north-central Europe.
, I conclude that the content about genetics (in that field) is a mistake. — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
78.9.143.181 (
talk) 11:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
This information that I added to the article was deleted:
The studies done by 23andme in these articles and referenced by Henry Louis Gates were done by Kasia Bryc, the same woman who is referenced in the following citation:
I was told that as commercial testing companies, these are unreliable sources, but the source listed above (which is found in this page under Autosomal DNA) obtained its research through a commercial testing company---Affymetrix. These DNA analysis are not unreliable; they are all derived from commercial testing companies; 23andme is generally accurate in terms of DNA (not necessarly their health/genetic disease predisposition statements obviously). Kinfoll1993 ( talk) 22:21, 8 April 2015 (UTC)
References
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I want to know what other editors think about the inclusion of other groups in the infobox, such as adding groups "British Americans (English Americans, Scottish Americans, Scots-Irish Americans, Welsh Americans)" to the related ethnic groups section, b/c the article and the citations given here (such as one study in the autosomal DNA section) points specifically to United Kingdom dna being the most prevalent European ancestry of Black Americans-and also the predominant groups that settled the South, where most Black Americans reside. The categories "American people of Yoruba descent" or "People of Yoruba descent" being added would reflect the information in the article about the specific African roots of AA. Also, would the category "People of European descent" (per the several autosomal studies and the statements of Gates and copious others) be appropriate, or would it be inappropriate b/c it would be exclusive of many recent African immigrants? I want to ask for consensus before making any such changes to the infobox or categories section. Kinfoll1993 ( talk) 21:11, 11 April 2015 (UTC)
Ragland, James (14 April 2015).
"Black immigrants may change the way we talk about black America". Dallas Morning News.
Take from it what you will about the changing demographics of African Americans.--
RightCowLeftCoast (
talk) 19:02, 26 April 2015 (UTC)
This is the most appropriate place I could find to ask this but I know it's not the right place. I'm interested to know if Wikipedia should be using 'African American' or 'black' in articles to describe black people. African American seems unnecessarily PC in many cases. Where would I go to find out or discuss this? Thanks. Handpolk ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ 16:18, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: No consensus. There is an argument that a naming convention, WP:PLURAL, should cause us to choose the plural form. But many American ethnic groups currently have singular titles, and a 4:4 tie vote isn't much of a consensus to change all of these names to the plural. WP:NCET should also apply but it is not very prescriptive. (Read the first four sentences under WP:NCET#Ethnic groups). In March 2015 there was a long move discussion at Talk:Korean Americans that ended with a move to the plural form, but with only a handful of participants. In that discussion, the closer noted the presence of conflicting guidelines. See also Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (ethnicities and tribes)#Presentations and pluralisations of peoples where User:Rjensen argued that the 'adjectival' form of the article title, as in Korean American, was the best. EdJohnston ( talk) 22:14, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
African American →
African Americans – Applying
Talk:Korean Americans as a precedent and
WP:PLURAL, we should be consistent with other pluralistic titles. I'm not proposing any other alternative titles here. --Relisted.
George Ho (
talk) 21:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
George Ho (
talk) 23:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC) (EDIT: I'm not thrilled about proposing "Black Americans" as alternative because there are light-skinned African Americans. But vote for that if you want. --
George Ho (
talk) 21:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC))
singular works quite well"? The article is not about a WP:SINGLE Black American. The generally used designation for the group of people refers to "Black Americans". Greg Kaye 20:04, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
There should be some mention when referring to the participation of African-Americans in the American Revolution, that the first patriot to give his life, was a black man--Crispus Attucks.
Busslynns ( talk) 22:07, 3 August 2015 (UTC)Teri L Malone
The pictures in the infobox needs to be cut down by at least half. Why in the World are there 35 pictures there? If we are going to have 5 pictures per row, I suggest we have at most 4 rows. My preference is this:
Dave Dial ( talk) 21:54, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
"Some of these were. Slavery, reconstruction, development of the African-American community, participation in the great military conflicts of the United States, racial segregation, and the Civil Rights Movement."
There should be no colon after "were". Could someone fix this?
You mean there should be *a* colon after "were", correct? I'm on it, if still pertinent. ==Mic Morose
Can someone also change all instances of African slaves to enslaved Africans? There is a connotation there. Slavery was a condition forced upon them, not a job occupation.
*{{Cite book |last= Kilson |first= Martin |year= 2014 |title= Transformation of the African American Intelligentsia, 1880–2012 |location= Cambridge, MA |publisher= [[Harvard University Press]] |isbn= 978-0-674-28354-1 }}
The very last paragraph expands on pronunciation in Spanish and Portuguese: "In Latin America, negro, which translates as black is the term generally used to refer and describe black people and, similarly to mulatto, it is not considered offensive at all in these regions. However, it is pronounced differently, with the e (a mid front unrounded vowel in American Spanish: [ˈneɣɾo], and a close-mid front unrounded vowel in Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈneɡɾu]) being closer to a sound that it is intermediate between phonemes found in English words such as pay and egg (in Spanish) or day, city and item (in Portuguese)." It fails to mention, however, that in Spanish the -g- is also pronounced differently, although this is indirectly indicated in the IPA rendering ([ˈne'ɣɾo]).
Opinions are needed on the following matter: Talk:Viola Davis#WP:Citation overkill in the lead; also see the section started immediately below that. Flyer22 ( talk) 13:07, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
As seen here and here, I reverted X4n6 twice, and X4n6 reverted me twice, with regard to images being added to the infobox. In my opinion, X4n6 has cluttered the infobox with a lot of unnecessary images. X4n6 has cited WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE for doing so. WP:IMAGE RELEVANCE does not justify such an edit in the least. Flyer22 ( talk) 13:40, 28 September 2015 (UTC)
Sorry to intervene in your argument, but I have to point something. If these additional people are notable enough for an infobox, shouldn't they also be mentioned in the text sections? Dimadick ( talk) 19:49, 29 September 2015 (UTC)
"Believed to be inferior to white people, they were treated as second-class citizens." This is a lazy and meaningless sentence. Black slaves were not citizens of any class. They were legally slaves and were treated as slaves. Intelligent Mr Toad 2 ( talk) 05:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)
Some such as Maulana Karenga and Owen Alik Shahadah argue African-American is more appropriate, because it accurately articulates geography and historical origin. Thus linking a people to a continent as opposed to an abstract color Both Karenga and Shahadah (who are contemporaries and associates) hold this opinion. The statement is important to this article.-- Inayity ( talk) 06:33, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
I restored this article, got rid of the most obvious copyright infringement and began to fix the references. This article needs more work and I'd welcome any help to get it in Wikipedia shape. I think there is much that can be preserved here but the overly promotional language has to go. Liz Read! Talk! 13:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)
I know "Afro-American" (vs. "African-American") has largely fallen out of use; I wanted to cite for it having been current as recently as the mid-1980s, but I don't see an appropriate place in the article to place such a footnote. Anyway, if someone sees a place to put it, that's the usage by Cornel West throughout his essay "The Paradox of Afro-American Rebellion", p.44-58 in The 60s Without Apology (1985, edited by Sohnya Sayres, Anders Stephanson, Stanley Aronowitz, Fredric Jameson), University of Minnesota Press, ISBN 0-8166-1337-0. - Jmabel | Talk 19:09, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
Should the template contain more or less photos? X4n6 ( talk) 15:53, 28 September 2015 (UTC)