This article was nominated for deletion on january 30, 2008. The result of the discussion was Withdrawn by nominator. |
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According to Jonas Turkow "C´etait ainsi. 1939-1943 la vie dans le ghetto de Varsovie", Gancwajch " had a rabbi diploma". Does it make him a rabbi ? -- Lysy talk 20:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Acceptable as what? Semicha is one thing, a non-rabbinic reference to something called a "diploma" is completely different. So not only is the reference not helpful, what it refers to is completely ambiguous as well. -- Avi ( talk) 17:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The article is actually getting fixed nicely. However, sites such as http://www.jewishtribalreview.org and http://www.lastsuperpower.net are unacceptable. If you can replace those with reliable citations or remove the unsourced sentences, I will consider withdrawing the nomination, as the other cites are seemingly acceptable. -- Avi ( talk) 00:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The Category:Holocaust perpetrators is reserved for Nazis. The proper category here is Category:Polish Nazi collaborators. Thanks. -- Avi ( talk) 13:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
He was from Poland, lived in Warsaw and Lodz, and all the sources you brought confirm this. Wikipedia is not censored. -- Avi ( talk) 13:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems Category:Jewish Nazi collaborators is missing. It's not clear if he was Polish or not, but he certainly was a Jew, so maybe this would solve it ? -- Lysy talk 14:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
According to the Warsaw ghetto database, he came from Czestochowa and then Spent many years in Vienna, supposedly as a journalist, expelled from Vienna, he came back to Poland, so according to your own logic, he can not be considered Austrian but must be considered Polish. Personally, I think that as he spent a number of years in Vienna, he may be considered both. -- Avi ( talk) 18:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
There is some confusion as to where Gancwajch was born, with conflicting records indicating either Częstochowa or Łódź, both in Poland. Incorrect. We have sources stating he came from those places; that doesn't mean he was actually born there.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I find this discussion rather amusing even though lacking common sense. For obvious reasons nobody wants to be associated with such a disreputable character. Things change completely when it as a famous artist or scientist; see for instance the discussion in Talk:Irène Joliot-Curie; she was much less Polish than Gancwajch but lots of Poles want to recognize her as French-Polish or Polish-French. As far as this case is concerned, the most important facts are: (1) he was a Polish Jew (besides several other arguments, Gancwajch is obviously a Polish spelling), and (2) he was a Jewish Nazi collaborator. A separate category for Jewish Nazi collaborators is certainly the best solution. Tsf ( talk) 11:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
www.holocaustresearchproject.org appears to be a blacklisted hyperlink for the spam filter. Investigating... -- MPerel 17:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
They also list the author of the pages and credit sources on all the pages. The site is also partnered with the Universities in the UK, the US; they have appeared on BBC broadcasts, and given interviews on US news programs. This website is legitimate and highly credible. However I wrote to team there and they stated they prefer not to be linked on Wiki, due to the fact that they have been targeted by Neo-Nazi groups, hate bloggers and other unprincipled groups who use the Internet as a vehicle to cause discontent and perpetrate otherwise negative activity. I think they would prefer not to have any connection to Wiki one way or the other, but not by being blacklisted or needlessly maligned. I rather enjoy their website and the information it contains, the way it’s presented and the overall look and feel. 68.160.28.55 ( talk) 02:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Where does Category:People from Warsaw require birth in the city? If he was a member of the Warsaw criminal scene, that surely makes him from Warsaw, no? -- Avi ( talk) 17:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Avi, the categories are there to help organizing information, not to confude people. Please do not add absurd categories to the article. -- Lysy talk 18:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Warsaw Ghetto Database has four or five records saying he was born in Częstochowa, so that is pretty clear. What bothers you if he is also listed in Lodz, Vienna, or Warsaw? -- Avi ( talk) 18:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that they are several articles that fit in that category, including this one. I believe one should be made to avoid imprecise descriptions. -- Molobo ( talk) 20:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Jewish Nazi collaborators is as valid a category as Polish Nazi collaborators, just as Category:Jews and its various subcategories are valid equivalents of Category:Polish people. He should be assigned to both cats, and if they don't exist, they should be created.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
“Abraham Gancwajch was probably shot in Pawiak prison with his wife and son during April 1943.”
This page certainly contrasts with more positive portrayals of Nazis throughout Wikipedia, where SS officers’ involvement in mass murder is often questioned by Wiki editors, and their constant robbery emphasized in comparison to this “greedy Jew.” Mentions of these collaborators being murdered in Auschwitz are reduced to “sent to Auschwitz.” As Jews, no matter how “servile” or how much they collaborated, we’re always considered part of the final solution. His (and apparently his family’s) disappearance almost certainly was due to his murder, but this is not mentioned depending on the Wikipedia page, instead suggesting his end was more positive by claiming it “unknown.” This is not a lie, but it is disingenuous. The quotes are more negative than those I have seen on pages about murderers of millions of Jews.
No doubt he was reprehensible, but comments about his “self-interest” are also preposterously vague and give the wrong impression of the Holocaust. Many were driven by self-interest and accused of such, though that included the interest in not being tortured to death and having one’s family and community members slowly killed. That ostensibly differs from this man, but “self-interest,” in a world where survival is on the line, again plays into the “greedy Jew” stereotype. One shouldn’t conflate Jewish leaders who did what the Nazis wanted to save their own lives and those of others with apparently malicious Jewish leaders. Elleoneiram ( talk) 16:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
This article was nominated for deletion on january 30, 2008. The result of the discussion was Withdrawn by nominator. |
A fact from Abraham Gancwajch appeared on Wikipedia's
Main Page in the
Did you know column on 3 February 2008, and was viewed approximately 4,124 times (
disclaimer) (
check views). The text of the entry was as follows:
|
This article is rated Start-class on Wikipedia's
content assessment scale. It is of interest to the following WikiProjects: | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
|
It is requested that an image or photograph be
included in this article to
improve its quality. Please replace this template with a more specific
media request template where possible.
The Free Image Search Tool or Openverse Creative Commons Search may be able to locate suitable images on Flickr and other web sites. |
This article links to one or more target anchors that no longer exist.
Please help fix the broken anchors. You can remove this template after fixing the problems. |
Reporting errors |
According to Jonas Turkow "C´etait ainsi. 1939-1943 la vie dans le ghetto de Varsovie", Gancwajch " had a rabbi diploma". Does it make him a rabbi ? -- Lysy talk 20:37, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Acceptable as what? Semicha is one thing, a non-rabbinic reference to something called a "diploma" is completely different. So not only is the reference not helpful, what it refers to is completely ambiguous as well. -- Avi ( talk) 17:40, 11 February 2008 (UTC)
The article is actually getting fixed nicely. However, sites such as http://www.jewishtribalreview.org and http://www.lastsuperpower.net are unacceptable. If you can replace those with reliable citations or remove the unsourced sentences, I will consider withdrawing the nomination, as the other cites are seemingly acceptable. -- Avi ( talk) 00:58, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
The Category:Holocaust perpetrators is reserved for Nazis. The proper category here is Category:Polish Nazi collaborators. Thanks. -- Avi ( talk) 13:19, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
He was from Poland, lived in Warsaw and Lodz, and all the sources you brought confirm this. Wikipedia is not censored. -- Avi ( talk) 13:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
It seems Category:Jewish Nazi collaborators is missing. It's not clear if he was Polish or not, but he certainly was a Jew, so maybe this would solve it ? -- Lysy talk 14:41, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
According to the Warsaw ghetto database, he came from Czestochowa and then Spent many years in Vienna, supposedly as a journalist, expelled from Vienna, he came back to Poland, so according to your own logic, he can not be considered Austrian but must be considered Polish. Personally, I think that as he spent a number of years in Vienna, he may be considered both. -- Avi ( talk) 18:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
There is some confusion as to where Gancwajch was born, with conflicting records indicating either Częstochowa or Łódź, both in Poland. Incorrect. We have sources stating he came from those places; that doesn't mean he was actually born there.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 18:49, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I find this discussion rather amusing even though lacking common sense. For obvious reasons nobody wants to be associated with such a disreputable character. Things change completely when it as a famous artist or scientist; see for instance the discussion in Talk:Irène Joliot-Curie; she was much less Polish than Gancwajch but lots of Poles want to recognize her as French-Polish or Polish-French. As far as this case is concerned, the most important facts are: (1) he was a Polish Jew (besides several other arguments, Gancwajch is obviously a Polish spelling), and (2) he was a Jewish Nazi collaborator. A separate category for Jewish Nazi collaborators is certainly the best solution. Tsf ( talk) 11:55, 3 February 2008 (UTC)
www.holocaustresearchproject.org appears to be a blacklisted hyperlink for the spam filter. Investigating... -- MPerel 17:22, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
They also list the author of the pages and credit sources on all the pages. The site is also partnered with the Universities in the UK, the US; they have appeared on BBC broadcasts, and given interviews on US news programs. This website is legitimate and highly credible. However I wrote to team there and they stated they prefer not to be linked on Wiki, due to the fact that they have been targeted by Neo-Nazi groups, hate bloggers and other unprincipled groups who use the Internet as a vehicle to cause discontent and perpetrate otherwise negative activity. I think they would prefer not to have any connection to Wiki one way or the other, but not by being blacklisted or needlessly maligned. I rather enjoy their website and the information it contains, the way it’s presented and the overall look and feel. 68.160.28.55 ( talk) 02:13, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
Where does Category:People from Warsaw require birth in the city? If he was a member of the Warsaw criminal scene, that surely makes him from Warsaw, no? -- Avi ( talk) 17:58, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Avi, the categories are there to help organizing information, not to confude people. Please do not add absurd categories to the article. -- Lysy talk 18:11, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Well, the Warsaw Ghetto Database has four or five records saying he was born in Częstochowa, so that is pretty clear. What bothers you if he is also listed in Lodz, Vienna, or Warsaw? -- Avi ( talk) 18:57, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I noticed that they are several articles that fit in that category, including this one. I believe one should be made to avoid imprecise descriptions. -- Molobo ( talk) 20:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Jewish Nazi collaborators is as valid a category as Polish Nazi collaborators, just as Category:Jews and its various subcategories are valid equivalents of Category:Polish people. He should be assigned to both cats, and if they don't exist, they should be created.-- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:50, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
“Abraham Gancwajch was probably shot in Pawiak prison with his wife and son during April 1943.”
This page certainly contrasts with more positive portrayals of Nazis throughout Wikipedia, where SS officers’ involvement in mass murder is often questioned by Wiki editors, and their constant robbery emphasized in comparison to this “greedy Jew.” Mentions of these collaborators being murdered in Auschwitz are reduced to “sent to Auschwitz.” As Jews, no matter how “servile” or how much they collaborated, we’re always considered part of the final solution. His (and apparently his family’s) disappearance almost certainly was due to his murder, but this is not mentioned depending on the Wikipedia page, instead suggesting his end was more positive by claiming it “unknown.” This is not a lie, but it is disingenuous. The quotes are more negative than those I have seen on pages about murderers of millions of Jews.
No doubt he was reprehensible, but comments about his “self-interest” are also preposterously vague and give the wrong impression of the Holocaust. Many were driven by self-interest and accused of such, though that included the interest in not being tortured to death and having one’s family and community members slowly killed. That ostensibly differs from this man, but “self-interest,” in a world where survival is on the line, again plays into the “greedy Jew” stereotype. One shouldn’t conflate Jewish leaders who did what the Nazis wanted to save their own lives and those of others with apparently malicious Jewish leaders. Elleoneiram ( talk) 16:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)