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There used to be a link on this page to a German version. There is no more. I've yet to meet a German who even knows these things occurred. Germans need to know. Please bring back the German version page of this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffwinchell ( talk • contribs) 15:58, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
This really needs to be cleaned up. Listed among Himmler’s core points: ‘In the territory of Poland, only four grade schools would remain, in which counting would be taught only till 500, writing one's name, and teaching that God commanded Poles to serve Germans.’
How could someone only know how to count to 500? It’s a number system; once you can count you can count to any number. This entire section should have a primary source (in english). — Preceding unsigned comment added by MONDARIZ ( talk • contribs) 06:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Cattle wagons - they weren't real " Stock car (rail)" but rather Boxcars with small windows - see the picture Image:Vertreibung 1.jpg . Xx236 11:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Rather crime against humanity and/or war crime. Xx236 11:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From the Google Print link we have only a page refering to a statement of some sorts. Its not clearly if this statement is about the whole kidnapping or Hau Aktion. This needs to be clarified.-- Molobo ( talk) 20:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
You can easly copy the sentence here-Google offers limit view and the page above is out of the available preview for me. To put one estimate over others is POV.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Putting first just one estimate well above all others is pushing one version. What's wrong with thousands and then putting estimates belows. Furthermore the page you point to is a reference to something, but we don't know if it is towards Heu Aktion all the whole Aktion. Second-a book about Australian history is hardly the best scholary source for info about WW2 Poland. It can be given as secondary source showing minority view (if indeed it is, rather then number of Heu Aktion), but hardly as source in the first page of the article.-- Molobo ( talk) 16:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Richard the simple solution is just to mention the lead that it "was a programme in World War II in which thousands of Polish children were abducted from Poland to Nazi Germany for the purpose of Germanisation" The estimates can be given later. I hope you understand my reservations about using an history book about Australia as primary source in the article about WW2 Poland. It's not the best scholary source on that matter. It can be given, but as a sidenote rather then main source. -- Molobo ( talk) 17:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Richard C. Lukas Richard C. Lukas is a noted American historian and author of numerous books and articles on Polish history and Polish-Jewish relations.
After earning a Ph.D. from Florida State University he served as a Research Consultant at the United States Air Force Historical Archives before joining Tennessee Technological University were he taught for 20 years. Until his retirement in 1995, he was adjunct professor of history at the University of South Florida, Ft. Myers Campus.
His book : DID THE CHILDREN CRY? : Hitler's War Against Jewish & Polish Children, 1939-1945 [Richard C Lukas] Based on eye-witness accounts, interviews, and prodigious research by the author, who is an expert in the field, this is a unique contribution to the literature of World War II, and a most compelling account of German inhumanity towards children in occupied Poland.
In this position I think that the book is the best source as it is a detailed analysis of the action by experienced historian.
We also have Piotrowski Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide in the Second Republic, 1918-194 with review such as: The first two chapters, titled 'Soviet Terror' and 'Nazi Terror,' provide a brief overview of Poland's subjugation. Zones of occupation and their ethnic composition are likewise discussed, as are Soviet and Nazi occupation policies and practices. Professor Piotrowski teaches Sociology of the Holocaust at the University of New Hampshire. Overall, this book makes a valuable contribution to several fields of study. Students of the Holocaust, of wartime collaboration, of Polish, Central European and Russian history will be well served by Piotrowski's volume. Now I am sure Moses book is valuable to students of Australia but this is not an article about Australia. Of course below I listed several other scholary sources concentrated on Nazi Germany and Genocide in Poland, none of them concentrated on Australia or New Zealand as far as can be seen. I am sure they also should be put before a book about Australia. After it only mentions German atrocities as a sidenote, while they concentrate on it. In fact one is a complete detailed study of the action by a history professor. Thus they should be treated as primary sources, especially the detailed study. Not to mentionm the fact that is clearly seen that overwhelming number estimated by historians is far above number put by Moses(for only Heu Aktion maybe ?) which isn't repeated anywhere else as far as it can be seen, -- Molobo ( talk) 02:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
By making seperate articles. The start should be Nuremberg Archives which list several countries in which children were kidnapped by Germans.-- Molobo ( talk) 16:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Czech children kidapped [1] Yugoslav children kidnapped [2] -- Molobo ( talk) 16:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I will gather here what I can find about estimates from scholary sources. From
[3] Gives There seems to be general agreement that 200,000 Polish children were deported for Germanization purposes. Not all were Germanized. But only 15-20 percent of the children kidnapped by the Germans were recovered at war's end.
[4] In 1946, it was estimated that more than 250,000 were kidnapped and sent by force to Germany. Only 25,000 were retrieved after the war and sent back to their family. It is known that several German families refused to give back the children they had received from the Lebensborn centers.
Konnilyn G. Feig 1981 They were literally kidnapped off the streets. It is estimated that the Germans kidnapped 200000 Polish children.
about 200000 Polish children were kidnapped for this sinister program
W. D. Rubinstein About 200000 'Aryan'-looking Polish children were kidnapped
Bernhard R. Kroener, Rolf-Dieter Muller, Hans Umbreit
The Germans are estimated to have kidnapped between 100000 and 200000 children from Poland in the course of the war
George Victor most children were taken from Poland-more then 200.000
-- Molobo ( talk) 22:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Tara Zahra "Meanwhile, East European officials heavily exaggerated the number of children reportedly kidnapped by the Nazis... It has been more credibly estimated that around 20,000 children were probably kidnapped from Poland and up to 50,000 from all of Europe." Buffalohead ( talk) 17:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC) buffalohead
Can be seen here: [5] There are several problems with his edit but let me focus on one first: Scinurea has added a sentence "Polish children from occupied Poland were abducted to Nazi Germany and assigned to German foster families for the purpose of Germanisation"
This change seems POV to me. The problems with the sentence are:
I would fellow editors to comment if this is the best idea to give impression that kidnapped children were just sent to Germany and given to German families, while skippin the whole racial profiling, concentration camps and medical experiments issues.-- Molobo ( talk) 02:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Below we can detail the process in full in seperate chapter. -- Molobo ( talk) 03:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
You are incorrect. They went to German families only after forceful indoctrination at the hands of Nazi in special facilites, per Lukas: Children selected for Germanization ended up in schools or institutions run by a number of Nazi organizations before they became available for adoption by German families. (...) The core of the Germanization process was to destroy the Polish identity of the boys and girls. Barbara Mikolajczyk was an adolescent when the Germans took her and her sisters to Bruczkow, where the Nazis forced them to learn German. "The Germans always said that we must forget about speaking in Polish and about Poland," Mikolajczyk said. They beat her and the other children when they spoke Polish. Mikolajczyk now became Baber Mickler. Placed in a German home, she had to address a German woman as "Mama." Like other Polish children doled out to German households, Mikolajczyk received a fraudulent birth certificate and genealogy which the Germans inventively composed for her.
Second-abducting children and convincing them they are Germans is forcefull, because force was used to take them away-- Molobo ( talk) 16:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
This is the English version of Wikipedia (not Polish Wikipedia); its readers are readers of English; English readers must be able to read and to verify the source citations. This article needs to follow English Wikipedia citation formats: e.g., see WP:CITE and Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
Re: the above section's discussion, I've revised "forceful" and "forcefully", etc. to "forcible" and "forcibly"; e.g., diff. between an action being done by force and one being done with force) [e.g., "The commander removed the children forcibly." v. "The commander spoke to the children forcefully"; forcible v. forceful (Merriam-Webster.com).
(cont.) Some of the syntactical constructions throughout need clean up due to non-idiomatic English being used in them; I've done some clean up of idiomatic expression and syntax and grammar, but more such clean up probably remains to be done. Dates need to follow Wikipedia:MOS#Dates re: formatting of dates; it is not Wikipedia format to use "th" etc. after numbers of dates. In "show preview mode" one can see the editorial interpolations throughout. -- NYScholar ( talk) 03:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
(cont.) Just stopped back in briefly to reverse the order of the examples that I gave above and to say also that one needs to follow Wikipedia:MOS#Quotations for punctuation of quotations; please do not use italics to punctuate quotations from sources (see related link there); use quotation marks; block quotations are used only for quotations of 4 or more lines. I corrected a few of such problems a couple of days ago. It is also not necessary to use both quotation marks and italics for foreign words; if one is not pointing to the use of the word as a word, it is sufficient just to use the foreign language and if that is a title of a book, one uses italics (not also quotation marks); if it is an article or a chapter in a book, one uses quotation marks. Please see the details of the section. I've left words which are being noted as words in italics in places; but the whole article needs clean up for consistency throughout as I may have missed some. I have not done a complete clean up. It would be best to convert all the source citations to template format ( WP:CITE); right now, there is an inconsistent citation format used throughout. As some people introduced the templates, I've followed that in places, but I don't have time to convert all the citations. This is a controversial subject; one needs to give "full citations"--author, title, place of publication, publisher, date of publication, pages and so on--see the templates for the parameters; if a URL is being used as a source link, the citation needs to identify the actual source of the link. E.g., if it is Google Books "Limited preview", that needs to be identified as the source, since the source used is not the printed book or article. -- NYScholar ( talk) 21:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Did the Polish authors even bother to consult a dictionary before naming this article, and using the term "kidnap" fourteen times in the article, not including the article title?
to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud, esp. for use as a hostage or to extract ransom. take away to an undisclosed location against their will and usually in order to extract a ransom
abduction seems more appropriate, no?
second of all, "kidnapping of children" is a dubious phrase. Of course they are children.
I would propose "abducting of Polish children by Nazi Germany" as an article title.
-- 88.73.243.133 ( talk) 16:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Moved back to original title-Kidnapping is a bit more widespread then abduction when describing those events. Also updated some missing references-most were already existing ones but not extended to all sentences where they were used.Still the article needs repair-- Molobo ( talk) 00:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
A short search on google books shows 25 to 16 in favour of Kidnapping of Polish children to abduction.-- Molobo ( talk) 15:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
My Polish is only fair – Polish editors can confirm this by checking source
The Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) researchers estimate 200,000 Polish children were kidnapped and only 15% (30,000) returned to Poland.
Source
Wojciech Materski and Tomasz Szarota. Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami. Institute of National Remembrance(IPN) Warszawa 2009 ISBN 978-83-7629-067-6 Page 99
Also the book is a goldmine of information on Poland's losses in the war (thats a hint - get it) -- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Any proof of those children were killed in a gas chamber-- 41.151.66.170 ( talk) 11:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)?
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The use of the Ghitta Sereny interview, as the only source of the number 400,000, comes from an interview in Talk magazine, reprinted by Jewish Virtual Library.
1) It includes this introduction from Jewish Virtual Library: "As part of Hitler's plan to create "the master race," 250,000 Jewish children were kidnapped during the war and subjected to Nazi propaganda in an attempt to "cleanse" them of their Jewish heritage." The idea that the Nazis were trying to Germanize Jews is certainly a mistake; apparently whoever wrote the introduction didn't read the interview, or know much history.
2) Nowhere in the interview is the number 400,000 even mentioned! Sereny mentions 200,000 Poles "reported missing"- not necessarily kidnapped.
Buffalohead ( talk) 17:55, 16 May 2019 (UTC)Buffalohead
This article states that ~200,000 Polish children were kidnapped.
HOWEVER, a linked, related article reports a far lower number, 40,000 - 50,000. /info/en/?search=Heuaktion
I am not capable of determining the correct number, but know that maintaining the integrity of Wikipedia requires that the numbers must agree.
If someone reading this can do the research, great.LarryWiki115 04:42, 6 January 2020 (UTC)Larry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Larry11565 ( talk • contribs)
According to this article from Deutsche Welle [6], Isabell Heinemann clarified that the number of 20,000 children she confirmed in records refers to children who passed Germanization test and were classified as worthy of integration in Lebensborn program. Polish sources include children forcefully taken away from Polish women working as forced labour in Germany.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 02:57, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I checked the source and Tara Zahra gives MUCH bigger figures, the source was manipulated because she states "an additional 20,000-50,000" children were deliberately kidnapped" and gives figures for other children that were taken from parents including the ones in HeuAktion.Who inserted this?---- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:05, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
So you entered this information? Tara Zahra gives much different estimates and clearly states theses figures are in addition to other number of children taken away.Do not blindly revert and delete numerous scholarly sources. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:19, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Please allow me to work on the article for a moment and do not blindly revert. I am adding more information on this.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
The topic of this article is forced germanization Actually if you look at the title of the article(which I created btw) it is Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany not "Forced Germanization of Children by Nazi Germany".I expect he just cites official statistics without double checking if they are accurate. Your view, you got a source for that?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. None of the proposed names has enough consensus to move this article. ( non-admin closure) Vpab15 ( talk) 18:03, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany →
Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany – see below (
t ·
c)
buidhe
04:31, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Support: By my count there are several instances of kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany:
As far as I know, there is no source that comprehensively discusses all of these topics, so it is not suitable for a broad-concept article. (Molobo has found some sources which give statistics on Polish children, but I doubt that they cover children in Germany or Soviet Union). Therefore, I suggest moving this page to Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany and setting up a dab page. ( t · c) buidhe 04:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Oppose The article is about kidnapping of children. Forced Germanization of children is much, much wider subject including the teaching of language and schools in Nazi Germany(Sorbs for example), annexed territories like Western Poland and in General Government itself.The current article only briefly touches on the subject. As to the claim Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany—what this article was originally about the article was created under the title Kidnapping of Polish children by Germany in 2007, so this is quite wrong.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 04:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I am afraid And "Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany" is not a suitable topic for a broad concept article. Forced Germanization of Children where? Nazi Germany in regards to Sorb and Danish population? Western Poland and local population? Hans's Franks Germanization policies regarding education of Polish children in General Government? Really too broad of a topic to put under one article, you would have to be more precise.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 05:03, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes Piotrus, of course. Forced labour, medical experiments, extermination. Changing the title of this article would mean that somebody could use this as an excuse to delete a lot of the material which currently is in the article. Note that the recent publication by Jagiellonian University about the subject mentions extermination as one of the primary motives of Germans in kidnapping of Polish children ''Zbrodnia bez kary… : eksterminacja i cierpienie polskich dzieci pod okupacją niemiecką 1939-1945(Crime without penalty... : extermination and suffering of Polish children during the German occupation of 1939-1945) editor Kostkiewicz Janina, Jagiellonian University in Kraków, 2020, ISBN:978-83-958240-2-9 [10]-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
This article, " Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany", discusses Germany's World War II abduction, and forcible transportation to Germany, of children, "mostly Polish and Soviet... for purposes of forced labour, medical experiment, or Germanization."
The article's title should comprehensively, but succinctly, reflect this information.
Buidhe's proposed title, "Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany", is neither comprehensive nor succinct. It does not address the children's forced labor or subjection to medical experiment. And the proposed title could represent non-Polish and non-Soviet children, who are not the subjects of the article. The proposed title would thus be the worst of possible titles.
Nihil novi ( talk) 06:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I think this is far from best practices to move the article to a new title one one's proposal (just above) is closed as 'no consensus to move' (and no discussion about the new title or split or such has been even started to gauge a consensus for a such love). However, User:Buidhe just moved this article to a new title without any discussion, and also created what looks like an obvious fork with most content being clearly copypasted at Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany for Germanization (compare [12] and [13]), converted the old page to a disambig Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany (preventing non-admins from doing this), and moved this article to a title about "ethnic Polish children" while the lead clearly states "mostly Polish and Soviet children" (and this is referenced in the text). This is a mess. I'd ask User:Buidhe to undo all of those changes which were none with no consensus (or against it), and I'll ping User:El C as an admin in this topic area for an admin-level help of moving this article back to the old title. I have no objection against a new RM with a new title, perhaps Kidnapping of Polish and Soviet children by Nazi Germany, or Kidnapping of Slavic children by Nazi Germany, through I think the best solution is to keep the old title (which didn't specify the children's ethnicity/nationality in the lead), and the current disambig can be moved to Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany (disambiguation), though, frankly, considering the unwieldy title, this would probably be better in see also section of this article. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a source that gives the total number of children kidnapped by Nazi Germany from all countries for any reason. If such a source does not exist, then the article absolutely needs to be moved or split; it is not one topic but a collection of topics. ( t · c) buidhe 07:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
mostly Polish and Soviet children were abducted from their homes and forcibly moved to Nazi Germany for the purpose of, forced labour, medical experiments, Germanization, or indoctrination into becoming German—when none of the sources make such an estimate (some are discussing kidnapping for Germanization only, others give a total for non-Jewish children from one country (Poland)). Depending on how you look at it, that is misrepresenting sources and/or engaging in original research.
About the Lebensborn document it says that the names had been germanized, and indeed these are Gean names. However, I find it unlikely that the family names "Bartel" and "Piehl" are also German versions of previously Polish names. In Germany we do not readily change names. I assume that these boys have German ancestry in the male line, even though they may have been Polish. The German authorities would have found the boys particularly suitable in this case. Aecur ( talk) 13:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
The article talks about 18 year old children. I don’t think those are children under any definition… 82.36.70.45 ( talk) 20:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
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There used to be a link on this page to a German version. There is no more. I've yet to meet a German who even knows these things occurred. Germans need to know. Please bring back the German version page of this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jeffwinchell ( talk • contribs) 15:58, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
This really needs to be cleaned up. Listed among Himmler’s core points: ‘In the territory of Poland, only four grade schools would remain, in which counting would be taught only till 500, writing one's name, and teaching that God commanded Poles to serve Germans.’
How could someone only know how to count to 500? It’s a number system; once you can count you can count to any number. This entire section should have a primary source (in english). — Preceding unsigned comment added by MONDARIZ ( talk • contribs) 06:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)
Cattle wagons - they weren't real " Stock car (rail)" but rather Boxcars with small windows - see the picture Image:Vertreibung 1.jpg . Xx236 11:22, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Rather crime against humanity and/or war crime. Xx236 11:54, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
From the Google Print link we have only a page refering to a statement of some sorts. Its not clearly if this statement is about the whole kidnapping or Hau Aktion. This needs to be clarified.-- Molobo ( talk) 20:50, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
You can easly copy the sentence here-Google offers limit view and the page above is out of the available preview for me. To put one estimate over others is POV.-- Molobo ( talk) 14:22, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Putting first just one estimate well above all others is pushing one version. What's wrong with thousands and then putting estimates belows. Furthermore the page you point to is a reference to something, but we don't know if it is towards Heu Aktion all the whole Aktion. Second-a book about Australian history is hardly the best scholary source for info about WW2 Poland. It can be given as secondary source showing minority view (if indeed it is, rather then number of Heu Aktion), but hardly as source in the first page of the article.-- Molobo ( talk) 16:24, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Richard the simple solution is just to mention the lead that it "was a programme in World War II in which thousands of Polish children were abducted from Poland to Nazi Germany for the purpose of Germanisation" The estimates can be given later. I hope you understand my reservations about using an history book about Australia as primary source in the article about WW2 Poland. It's not the best scholary source on that matter. It can be given, but as a sidenote rather then main source. -- Molobo ( talk) 17:44, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Richard C. Lukas Richard C. Lukas is a noted American historian and author of numerous books and articles on Polish history and Polish-Jewish relations.
After earning a Ph.D. from Florida State University he served as a Research Consultant at the United States Air Force Historical Archives before joining Tennessee Technological University were he taught for 20 years. Until his retirement in 1995, he was adjunct professor of history at the University of South Florida, Ft. Myers Campus.
His book : DID THE CHILDREN CRY? : Hitler's War Against Jewish & Polish Children, 1939-1945 [Richard C Lukas] Based on eye-witness accounts, interviews, and prodigious research by the author, who is an expert in the field, this is a unique contribution to the literature of World War II, and a most compelling account of German inhumanity towards children in occupied Poland.
In this position I think that the book is the best source as it is a detailed analysis of the action by experienced historian.
We also have Piotrowski Poland's Holocaust: Ethnic Strife, Collaboration with Occupying Forces and Genocide in the Second Republic, 1918-194 with review such as: The first two chapters, titled 'Soviet Terror' and 'Nazi Terror,' provide a brief overview of Poland's subjugation. Zones of occupation and their ethnic composition are likewise discussed, as are Soviet and Nazi occupation policies and practices. Professor Piotrowski teaches Sociology of the Holocaust at the University of New Hampshire. Overall, this book makes a valuable contribution to several fields of study. Students of the Holocaust, of wartime collaboration, of Polish, Central European and Russian history will be well served by Piotrowski's volume. Now I am sure Moses book is valuable to students of Australia but this is not an article about Australia. Of course below I listed several other scholary sources concentrated on Nazi Germany and Genocide in Poland, none of them concentrated on Australia or New Zealand as far as can be seen. I am sure they also should be put before a book about Australia. After it only mentions German atrocities as a sidenote, while they concentrate on it. In fact one is a complete detailed study of the action by a history professor. Thus they should be treated as primary sources, especially the detailed study. Not to mentionm the fact that is clearly seen that overwhelming number estimated by historians is far above number put by Moses(for only Heu Aktion maybe ?) which isn't repeated anywhere else as far as it can be seen, -- Molobo ( talk) 02:37, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
By making seperate articles. The start should be Nuremberg Archives which list several countries in which children were kidnapped by Germans.-- Molobo ( talk) 16:36, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Czech children kidapped [1] Yugoslav children kidnapped [2] -- Molobo ( talk) 16:37, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
I will gather here what I can find about estimates from scholary sources. From
[3] Gives There seems to be general agreement that 200,000 Polish children were deported for Germanization purposes. Not all were Germanized. But only 15-20 percent of the children kidnapped by the Germans were recovered at war's end.
[4] In 1946, it was estimated that more than 250,000 were kidnapped and sent by force to Germany. Only 25,000 were retrieved after the war and sent back to their family. It is known that several German families refused to give back the children they had received from the Lebensborn centers.
Konnilyn G. Feig 1981 They were literally kidnapped off the streets. It is estimated that the Germans kidnapped 200000 Polish children.
about 200000 Polish children were kidnapped for this sinister program
W. D. Rubinstein About 200000 'Aryan'-looking Polish children were kidnapped
Bernhard R. Kroener, Rolf-Dieter Muller, Hans Umbreit
The Germans are estimated to have kidnapped between 100000 and 200000 children from Poland in the course of the war
George Victor most children were taken from Poland-more then 200.000
-- Molobo ( talk) 22:50, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Tara Zahra "Meanwhile, East European officials heavily exaggerated the number of children reportedly kidnapped by the Nazis... It has been more credibly estimated that around 20,000 children were probably kidnapped from Poland and up to 50,000 from all of Europe." Buffalohead ( talk) 17:31, 16 May 2019 (UTC) buffalohead
Can be seen here: [5] There are several problems with his edit but let me focus on one first: Scinurea has added a sentence "Polish children from occupied Poland were abducted to Nazi Germany and assigned to German foster families for the purpose of Germanisation"
This change seems POV to me. The problems with the sentence are:
I would fellow editors to comment if this is the best idea to give impression that kidnapped children were just sent to Germany and given to German families, while skippin the whole racial profiling, concentration camps and medical experiments issues.-- Molobo ( talk) 02:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Below we can detail the process in full in seperate chapter. -- Molobo ( talk) 03:43, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
You are incorrect. They went to German families only after forceful indoctrination at the hands of Nazi in special facilites, per Lukas: Children selected for Germanization ended up in schools or institutions run by a number of Nazi organizations before they became available for adoption by German families. (...) The core of the Germanization process was to destroy the Polish identity of the boys and girls. Barbara Mikolajczyk was an adolescent when the Germans took her and her sisters to Bruczkow, where the Nazis forced them to learn German. "The Germans always said that we must forget about speaking in Polish and about Poland," Mikolajczyk said. They beat her and the other children when they spoke Polish. Mikolajczyk now became Baber Mickler. Placed in a German home, she had to address a German woman as "Mama." Like other Polish children doled out to German households, Mikolajczyk received a fraudulent birth certificate and genealogy which the Germans inventively composed for her.
Second-abducting children and convincing them they are Germans is forcefull, because force was used to take them away-- Molobo ( talk) 16:26, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
This is the English version of Wikipedia (not Polish Wikipedia); its readers are readers of English; English readers must be able to read and to verify the source citations. This article needs to follow English Wikipedia citation formats: e.g., see WP:CITE and Wikipedia:Reliable sources.
Re: the above section's discussion, I've revised "forceful" and "forcefully", etc. to "forcible" and "forcibly"; e.g., diff. between an action being done by force and one being done with force) [e.g., "The commander removed the children forcibly." v. "The commander spoke to the children forcefully"; forcible v. forceful (Merriam-Webster.com).
(cont.) Some of the syntactical constructions throughout need clean up due to non-idiomatic English being used in them; I've done some clean up of idiomatic expression and syntax and grammar, but more such clean up probably remains to be done. Dates need to follow Wikipedia:MOS#Dates re: formatting of dates; it is not Wikipedia format to use "th" etc. after numbers of dates. In "show preview mode" one can see the editorial interpolations throughout. -- NYScholar ( talk) 03:42, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
(cont.) Just stopped back in briefly to reverse the order of the examples that I gave above and to say also that one needs to follow Wikipedia:MOS#Quotations for punctuation of quotations; please do not use italics to punctuate quotations from sources (see related link there); use quotation marks; block quotations are used only for quotations of 4 or more lines. I corrected a few of such problems a couple of days ago. It is also not necessary to use both quotation marks and italics for foreign words; if one is not pointing to the use of the word as a word, it is sufficient just to use the foreign language and if that is a title of a book, one uses italics (not also quotation marks); if it is an article or a chapter in a book, one uses quotation marks. Please see the details of the section. I've left words which are being noted as words in italics in places; but the whole article needs clean up for consistency throughout as I may have missed some. I have not done a complete clean up. It would be best to convert all the source citations to template format ( WP:CITE); right now, there is an inconsistent citation format used throughout. As some people introduced the templates, I've followed that in places, but I don't have time to convert all the citations. This is a controversial subject; one needs to give "full citations"--author, title, place of publication, publisher, date of publication, pages and so on--see the templates for the parameters; if a URL is being used as a source link, the citation needs to identify the actual source of the link. E.g., if it is Google Books "Limited preview", that needs to be identified as the source, since the source used is not the printed book or article. -- NYScholar ( talk) 21:46, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Did the Polish authors even bother to consult a dictionary before naming this article, and using the term "kidnap" fourteen times in the article, not including the article title?
to steal, carry off, or abduct by force or fraud, esp. for use as a hostage or to extract ransom. take away to an undisclosed location against their will and usually in order to extract a ransom
abduction seems more appropriate, no?
second of all, "kidnapping of children" is a dubious phrase. Of course they are children.
I would propose "abducting of Polish children by Nazi Germany" as an article title.
-- 88.73.243.133 ( talk) 16:07, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
Moved back to original title-Kidnapping is a bit more widespread then abduction when describing those events. Also updated some missing references-most were already existing ones but not extended to all sentences where they were used.Still the article needs repair-- Molobo ( talk) 00:18, 13 April 2009 (UTC)
A short search on google books shows 25 to 16 in favour of Kidnapping of Polish children to abduction.-- Molobo ( talk) 15:34, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
My Polish is only fair – Polish editors can confirm this by checking source
The Polish Institute of National Remembrance (IPN) researchers estimate 200,000 Polish children were kidnapped and only 15% (30,000) returned to Poland.
Source
Wojciech Materski and Tomasz Szarota. Polska 1939–1945. Straty osobowe i ofiary represji pod dwiema okupacjami. Institute of National Remembrance(IPN) Warszawa 2009 ISBN 978-83-7629-067-6 Page 99
Also the book is a goldmine of information on Poland's losses in the war (thats a hint - get it) -- Woogie10w ( talk) 13:34, 23 October 2011 (UTC)
Any proof of those children were killed in a gas chamber-- 41.151.66.170 ( talk) 11:20, 25 January 2012 (UTC)?
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The use of the Ghitta Sereny interview, as the only source of the number 400,000, comes from an interview in Talk magazine, reprinted by Jewish Virtual Library.
1) It includes this introduction from Jewish Virtual Library: "As part of Hitler's plan to create "the master race," 250,000 Jewish children were kidnapped during the war and subjected to Nazi propaganda in an attempt to "cleanse" them of their Jewish heritage." The idea that the Nazis were trying to Germanize Jews is certainly a mistake; apparently whoever wrote the introduction didn't read the interview, or know much history.
2) Nowhere in the interview is the number 400,000 even mentioned! Sereny mentions 200,000 Poles "reported missing"- not necessarily kidnapped.
Buffalohead ( talk) 17:55, 16 May 2019 (UTC)Buffalohead
This article states that ~200,000 Polish children were kidnapped.
HOWEVER, a linked, related article reports a far lower number, 40,000 - 50,000. /info/en/?search=Heuaktion
I am not capable of determining the correct number, but know that maintaining the integrity of Wikipedia requires that the numbers must agree.
If someone reading this can do the research, great.LarryWiki115 04:42, 6 January 2020 (UTC)Larry — Preceding unsigned comment added by Larry11565 ( talk • contribs)
According to this article from Deutsche Welle [6], Isabell Heinemann clarified that the number of 20,000 children she confirmed in records refers to children who passed Germanization test and were classified as worthy of integration in Lebensborn program. Polish sources include children forcefully taken away from Polish women working as forced labour in Germany.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 02:57, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I checked the source and Tara Zahra gives MUCH bigger figures, the source was manipulated because she states "an additional 20,000-50,000" children were deliberately kidnapped" and gives figures for other children that were taken from parents including the ones in HeuAktion.Who inserted this?---- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:05, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
So you entered this information? Tara Zahra gives much different estimates and clearly states theses figures are in addition to other number of children taken away.Do not blindly revert and delete numerous scholarly sources. -- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:19, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Please allow me to work on the article for a moment and do not blindly revert. I am adding more information on this.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:27, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
The topic of this article is forced germanization Actually if you look at the title of the article(which I created btw) it is Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany not "Forced Germanization of Children by Nazi Germany".I expect he just cites official statistics without double checking if they are accurate. Your view, you got a source for that?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
The result of the move request was: Not moved. None of the proposed names has enough consensus to move this article. ( non-admin closure) Vpab15 ( talk) 18:03, 11 December 2020 (UTC)
Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany →
Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany – see below (
t ·
c)
buidhe
04:31, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Support: By my count there are several instances of kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany:
As far as I know, there is no source that comprehensively discusses all of these topics, so it is not suitable for a broad-concept article. (Molobo has found some sources which give statistics on Polish children, but I doubt that they cover children in Germany or Soviet Union). Therefore, I suggest moving this page to Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany and setting up a dab page. ( t · c) buidhe 04:17, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Oppose The article is about kidnapping of children. Forced Germanization of children is much, much wider subject including the teaching of language and schools in Nazi Germany(Sorbs for example), annexed territories like Western Poland and in General Government itself.The current article only briefly touches on the subject. As to the claim Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany—what this article was originally about the article was created under the title Kidnapping of Polish children by Germany in 2007, so this is quite wrong.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 04:43, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
I am afraid And "Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany" is not a suitable topic for a broad concept article. Forced Germanization of Children where? Nazi Germany in regards to Sorb and Danish population? Western Poland and local population? Hans's Franks Germanization policies regarding education of Polish children in General Government? Really too broad of a topic to put under one article, you would have to be more precise.-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 05:03, 29 November 2020 (UTC)
Yes Piotrus, of course. Forced labour, medical experiments, extermination. Changing the title of this article would mean that somebody could use this as an excuse to delete a lot of the material which currently is in the article. Note that the recent publication by Jagiellonian University about the subject mentions extermination as one of the primary motives of Germans in kidnapping of Polish children ''Zbrodnia bez kary… : eksterminacja i cierpienie polskich dzieci pod okupacją niemiecką 1939-1945(Crime without penalty... : extermination and suffering of Polish children during the German occupation of 1939-1945) editor Kostkiewicz Janina, Jagiellonian University in Kraków, 2020, ISBN:978-83-958240-2-9 [10]-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 03:12, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
This article, " Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany", discusses Germany's World War II abduction, and forcible transportation to Germany, of children, "mostly Polish and Soviet... for purposes of forced labour, medical experiment, or Germanization."
The article's title should comprehensively, but succinctly, reflect this information.
Buidhe's proposed title, "Forced Germanization of children by Nazi Germany", is neither comprehensive nor succinct. It does not address the children's forced labor or subjection to medical experiment. And the proposed title could represent non-Polish and non-Soviet children, who are not the subjects of the article. The proposed title would thus be the worst of possible titles.
Nihil novi ( talk) 06:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)
I think this is far from best practices to move the article to a new title one one's proposal (just above) is closed as 'no consensus to move' (and no discussion about the new title or split or such has been even started to gauge a consensus for a such love). However, User:Buidhe just moved this article to a new title without any discussion, and also created what looks like an obvious fork with most content being clearly copypasted at Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany for Germanization (compare [12] and [13]), converted the old page to a disambig Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany (preventing non-admins from doing this), and moved this article to a title about "ethnic Polish children" while the lead clearly states "mostly Polish and Soviet children" (and this is referenced in the text). This is a mess. I'd ask User:Buidhe to undo all of those changes which were none with no consensus (or against it), and I'll ping User:El C as an admin in this topic area for an admin-level help of moving this article back to the old title. I have no objection against a new RM with a new title, perhaps Kidnapping of Polish and Soviet children by Nazi Germany, or Kidnapping of Slavic children by Nazi Germany, through I think the best solution is to keep the old title (which didn't specify the children's ethnicity/nationality in the lead), and the current disambig can be moved to Kidnapping of children by Nazi Germany (disambiguation), though, frankly, considering the unwieldy title, this would probably be better in see also section of this article. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 05:51, 29 December 2020 (UTC)
I'm still waiting for a source that gives the total number of children kidnapped by Nazi Germany from all countries for any reason. If such a source does not exist, then the article absolutely needs to be moved or split; it is not one topic but a collection of topics. ( t · c) buidhe 07:13, 31 December 2020 (UTC)
mostly Polish and Soviet children were abducted from their homes and forcibly moved to Nazi Germany for the purpose of, forced labour, medical experiments, Germanization, or indoctrination into becoming German—when none of the sources make such an estimate (some are discussing kidnapping for Germanization only, others give a total for non-Jewish children from one country (Poland)). Depending on how you look at it, that is misrepresenting sources and/or engaging in original research.
About the Lebensborn document it says that the names had been germanized, and indeed these are Gean names. However, I find it unlikely that the family names "Bartel" and "Piehl" are also German versions of previously Polish names. In Germany we do not readily change names. I assume that these boys have German ancestry in the male line, even though they may have been Polish. The German authorities would have found the boys particularly suitable in this case. Aecur ( talk) 13:10, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
The article talks about 18 year old children. I don’t think those are children under any definition… 82.36.70.45 ( talk) 20:21, 20 March 2023 (UTC)
Crimes against humanity is a specific legal concept. In order to be included in the category, the event (s) must have been prosecuted as a crime against humanity, or at a bare minimum be described as such by most reliable sources. Most of the articles that were formerly in this category did not mention crimes against humanity at all, and the inclusion of the category was purely original research. MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 07:49, 14 February 2024 (UTC)