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This has gone far enough.No reason for doubts were give.Throughout the discussion personal attacks, blocking without any justification accured, and yet nobody opposing adding information on the atrocities has given any reason why they believe the unit didn't do it. I am only doing this becuse the level of emotions in my opinion has reached hysteria: Quotes from the books have been used by another wiki user Szopen in discussion on wehrmacht war crimes on axis forum: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=466672 Since September the 1st to October 26th 1993, when Wehrmacht had full power over occupied Polish lands, from 764 executions, in which 24.000 people were killed, in 311 participated soldiers of Wehrmacht. It was documented by Szymon Datner in "55 days of Wehrmacht in Poland. Crimes done on civilian population in period 1.IX-25.X 1939", Warsaw 1967 and "Crimes of Wehrmacht - choosen documents", Warsaw 1974.
(Polish titles: "55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na ludnosci cywilnej w okresi 1.iX-25.X 1939" oraz "Zbronie Wehrmachtu - wybrane dokumenty"
2 and 3rd september 1939 in the region of Rybnik group of Polish soldiers from 12 pp was captured by Wehrmacht. They were given no pardon, "they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks" (Szymon Datner, Crimes of Wehrmacht on prisoners of war during WWII", Warsaw 1964). September the 3rd near Radomsko Germans shot down POlish aircraft and captured two persons from crew. One prisoner after tortures (cutting his tongue, ears and nose) was murdered. It was done yb soldiers of 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army of Reichenau.
Shooting of prisoners or their mistreating were done by, amongst others, 2nd division of XVII corps of 14 army, 207 division infnatry of 4th army, 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army.
-- Molobo 03:12, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I have friends and relatives, such as prof. Aleksandr Kan, who were university scholars in a Communist dictatorship and they have my full trust, and I don't for a second believe that Polish cold war scholars were automatically unreliable
Your personal belief.If you don't produce a reliable source questioning the book that this stays your personal opinion. Believe me, Shauri has done her utmost to convince Molobo to behave like a civil Wikipedian, but has been met with nothing but contempt an Using false accusations an personal attacks ? Molobo has shown little sign of trustworthiness Speaking of trust-care finally to say what policy breaking led to block of my by you ? Doesn't speak much about your trustworthiness. -- Molobo 10:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
It should be also noted that Datner is used in scholary research to this day. There simply wasn't much political influence upon authors researching war crimes made by German forces in Poland, unless it dealt with Soviets or party. -- Molobo 10:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Current research on atrocities committed by German forces in Poland uses Datner's works as reference.
See
IPN
Regular bulletin of the institute from :
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/biuletyn8-9_43-44.pdf
Page 19 footnote : 2 Zob. w szczególności S. Datner, 55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na polskiej ludności cywilnej w okresie 1 IX–25 X 1939 r.,
2 Look in : Zob. w szczególności S. Datner, 55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na polskiej ludności cywilnej w okresie 1 IX–25 X 1939 r., Warszawa 1967 -- Molobo 13:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
@Halibutt: Are your serious? We have to give sources that Molobo is wrong? This means that i can write everything, with sources from my old eastgerman history books, where the USA is the devil and the russians are godlike heros and the other user must show me that i'm wrong. If the war crime reproaches are true, then it should be easy to find a neutral and acceptable source.
But even if Molobo is true, it is absurd to write over every killed person, like " On September 6 yet another Polish prisoner of war was executed in the village of Czermno.". The inital sentence "Throughout its existence, the division was responsible for a number of war crimes" isn't documented with the rest of the text, which describes only war crimes at September 1939. Another missing but important detail is, which regiment(s) of the division did the war crimes (see also http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/4PD-R.htm ). -- Revvar 17:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
But even if Molobo is true, it is absurd to write over every killed person, like " On September 6 yet another Polish prisoner of war was executed in the village of Czermno.. This documents incidents of atrocities.Of course if they would murder 20people in one incident that wouldn't be divided by all of them but they would be counted together.If they aren't however its worth noting this incidents seperatly.Right now for example I am writing an article on one of Germn divisions who murdered almost 200 people in September Campaign.Its understandable that they won't be treated seperatly, except cases that researchers documenting the case have noted out(for example a German soldier smashing the head of 1.5 yearold child with his riffle during the massacre). As to regiments-that unfortunetly is hard to find out for researches, thats why term division is used or even better elements of the division-- Molobo 17:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Are your serious? We have to give sources that Molobo is wrong? This means that i can write everything, with sources from my old eastgerman history books, where the USA is the devil and the russians are godlike heros and the other user must show me that i'm wrong. Such simple portayal would be easly described as propaganda.However research on war atrocities is serious and the author is respectable researcher whos works are cited to this day by historians documenting the atrocities Wehrmacht engaged in. -- Molobo 17:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, now that we have all the people involved in the quarrel using the talk page, we're halfways there. Good work everyone! In all negotiations the good place to start is the list of differences. I'll post what I draw from the above comments and correct me if I put something wrong.
Now on to my own oppinions: I was born and grew up in a city that has been brutally slaughtered by all sorts of German military formations, from Wehrmacht to Hiwis and from Gestapo to SS. Hence it is most probably easier for me to accept that Wehrmacht did commit the crimes it was accused of by several historians, be them modern or 1970's ones. On the contrary, someone born in West Germany and brought up in belief that the Wehrmacht was simply composed of soldiers fighting for their Fatherland and the bad guys were the SS and all the rest naturally finds it less credible. So, the proposed list of steps is as follows:
Does it seem a good way to settle this discpute? Or am I missing something here? Halibu tt 18:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Revvar thinks that we should present a source published after 1945 outside of Poland or a Polish source published after 1990 that would mention it.I already provided a resource mentioning the said book as a credible source of information in regards to atrocities made by Wehrmacht from beyond 1990. -- Molobo 19:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
As I said IPN uses Datner work today.But not only they do it, here we have: http://www.kean.edu/~hrc/filmsbooks.htm The Holocaust Resource Center (HRC) of Kean University opened its doors in the Fall semester of 1982. The Center is a joint initiative between the University and the Holocaust Resource Foundation, a private philanthropic organization. The Center collects and disseminates knowledge of the Holocaust to commemorate and strengthen education about the Holocaust. The mission of the HRC is to strengthen the conditions for a just and humane life in our society by collecting and disseminating knowledge of the Holocaust. The mandate for the HRC is to commemorate and strengthen education about the Holocaust. The Center offers an annual free lecture series and a tuition-free graduate course for teachers called “Teaching the Holocaust.” As enrollment in the course increased, it expanded from the University to various local school districts to allow for greater teacher preparation. The Center also offers a follow-up course called “Teaching Prejudice Reduction.” Thousands of teachers have participated in the project. The Center's educational programs serve as a resource for many Kean University students and members of the community.
The Resource Center also lists Datner as credible source of information: http://www.kean.edu/~hrc/filmsbooks.htm NEW BOOK ADDITIONS Added: (June 20, 2005) Datner, Szymon; Janusz Gumkowski;Kazimierz Leszcynski,War Crimes in Poland: Genocide 1939-1945 -- Molobo 22:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC) So as we can see Leszczynski, Gumkowski and Datner are certainly viewed as reliable source of information by modern scholars. -- Molobo 22:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Another example: http://www.umkc.edu/lib/spec-col/statland-bib.htm Suzanne Statland Collection in Holocaust Studies This bibliography lists 150 items that document the horrifying and abhorrent events that constitute the Holocaust. These materials represent only a very small cross-section of the Statland Collection in Holocaust Studies and other related research collections in the University of Missouri-Kansas City Libraries. Datner, Szymon; Gumkowski, Janusz; and Leszcynski, Kazimierz. Genocide 1939-1945. War Crimes in Poland. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Zachodnie, 1962. -- Molobo 22:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Another example of modern scholars using Datner as credible reference: (warning the page is long) http://raven.cc.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/BiblPt2.htm (Cienciala, revised Feb.-March 2004).
(iv) The Poles under the German occupation.
Szymon Datner, Janusz Gumkowski, Kazimierz Leszczynski, War Crimes in Poland. Genocide 1939-1945, Wydawnictwo Zachodnie, Poznan, Warsaw, 1962.
Deals with German war crimes against the Polish population; has lists of executions by location. (see also Pilichowski below) -- Molobo 22:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
A fistful of translations for Revvar:
Note that the translations are quite harsh and that in some instances I copied the Polish terms rather than translating them. In particular the Polish term hitlerowiec is hard to translate. It literally means man of Hitler and can be translated to, depending on context or personal preferrence, to either Nazi, hitlerite or German. Also note that in Polish the division onto German and Nazi in context of WWII is not as strong as in English. In particular calling Auschwitz a German camp is perfectly ok in Polish, while in Germany it would rather be called Nazi camp. Halibu tt 17:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I edited the War Crimes section. Till sufficient sources are brought forth for every member of this division being guilty of a war crime a broad generalization is not correct. The same for some of those war crimes mentioned. Sources are needed! Kenaz9 13:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into the discussion about whether those alleged war crimes really happened or not. It is more questionable for me to state all alleged "minor war crimes". WW2 was full of actions were eg POWs were killed and civilian collateral damages accepted: "Dehumanization" took place on both sides, everywhere. Having said this, I don't want to sanitize the Wehrmacht from any single crime one of its members had committed. But due to the fact that those actions happened on a daily basis everywhere, this page would be blown out of proportion in case you want to mention every crime. Therefore, I would suggest that you only mention well documented "major war crimes" like Malmedy or Oradour.
@Halibutt: What are your intents, when you write such things about me: "... so Revvar would not even find it credible." , "Bashing all Polish historians just because they published their books between 1939 an 1990 is not what I would expect of a reasonable person.", " Revvar (what a nice name, but shouldn't it be rather Revwar?)", "the other side (that would be you, Revvar and Shauri) should also provide some help and not only accusations of bad faith of one of the people involved."? You appear to believe to know what i'm "really" mean. Making jokes about other user names is'nt a sign of earnestness.
I want to clarify that i'm neither a "fan" of the 4th Panzer Division, nor do i believe that the Wehrmacht did not any war crimes.
I'm confused about all your links. How many prime sources we have now? Are all sources are based on Datners book(s)? Btw i'm not a polish, so it would be nice if you can show me the text parts, where the 4th Panzer Division is blamed.
The picture: Does " German 15th Motorized Infantry Regiment" is the translation of "Kradschützen-Bataillon 15"? Do you have sources with a higher resolution?
-- Revvar 08:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to put this argument about the idea of the Germans using a "human sheild" as a war crime. they did not do such an act, if one is to research common WWII frontline practise u would know that all land within 8 miles of the front lines were evacuated as quickly as possible. That is what happened here, the civilian population was being forced out of the area as to common military practises, and they were to go back to their own nation's lands, not the foreign forces side. Jadger 08:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks You Lysy, I have the book Panzer Commander: The Memoirs of Colonel Hans von Luck, which describes the protocols I described above. If no one can come up with a source for these statements that source can be better used to clarify that it was an accident.
Also, I would like to find a way of clarifying where it says 3 polish soldiers in civilian clothing were shot. According to the Geneva Convention those men could be punished (executed) for not being recognized combatants. As well I have noticed that all these statements of Polish soldiers being shot does not tell us anything other then they are shot. They were still subject to laws like everyone else, so perhaps they were being punished according to the Geneva Convention. there is not enough information given, so please whomever is the one who wrote that please clarify. Jadger 08:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Obviously the contents of the War Crimes section is controversial and is going to be disputed now and in the future. Therefore, it would be useful if the sources of the facts mentioned in this section are properly referenced, whoever put them there. -- Lysy talk 17:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to give it some credit of trust and assume a grace period, say one week, until the end of March 15 to have the information in this section properly referenced. Would anyone object to this ? I have to admit I'll not be able to find supporting sources for that. I believe Halibutt might have some references ? Would a week be enough ? -- Lysy talk 19:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks. While generally I would not trust individual web sites that much, these seem fairly consistent. I've also found a book reference of the Śladow events in "Puszcza Kampinoska" by Lechosław Herz, Pruszków 2002, page 289. He does not, however, identify the German unit responsible for murdering the civilians and the POWs, only uses term Nazi ("hitlerowcy") to name them. A small thing I've noticed is that the sources are not consistent on the number of victims (one claims 150, another 252+106) but I guess getting the exact number of murdered could be difficult. Unfortunately IPN's site remains silent about this. -- Lysy talk 23:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
which number will we use then if concrete proof has not been found? Will we say, "estimates of number of dead range from 150 up to 252+106"? Unfortunately feldgrau and the other databases on the unit's history simply state its location as "Poland". If we were to tie its location directly to the specific area, then I would be willing to say that more then likely this unit was responsible, unless there is information of a Nazi unit in the area (such as SS or whatever organization was in charge of the criminal actions at the time). I still think a direct quotation would work best, specifically in the part concerning the torture methods used on Polish aircrew.
Also the reference to "human shields" is troubling, as I have stated on the Battle of Mokra talk page.
-- Jadger 00:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
"about 300 POWs and civilians" could be misinterpreted into being 600 people total though. and that still does not give any information into the situation of the executions. did that quoted sentence stand alone or was there more information in the surrounding paragraphs? such as recent combat or partisan action in the area.
-- Jadger 01:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
that seems fine, but I still think more information is needed. Not meaning to just start "what ifs" but perhaps the murders were a retaliation for inflicting heavy casualties upon the attacking force, or in response for the Silesian Uprisings, where there were atrocities and strong arm tactics on both sides. After all, this was in a part of Poland that had been ceded to Poland after the Silesian Uprsisings. beign stationed just accross teh border before invasion, it is highly probable that the troops heard extravagant tales of Polish actions during the uprisings, and wanted some form of vengeance.
Now on to the subject of "human shields". As I have stated previously, it was common military practise to clear 8 miles within the combat zone of civilians, to prevent espionage and collateral damage. Since this occurence happened on the first day of battle, the refugees from the taken areas would only be able to move towards the Polish forces, as moving behind German lines would of made them illegal migrants in Germany and would of more then likely gone to concentration camps. Of course at this time they thought allied troops would land in Poland and aid them, so perhaps the refugees moved back to Polish areas in hope of Poland not losing. The specifics on whether or not it was a case of "human shield" tactics I have started discussion on the Battle of Mokra talk page, so perhaps look at that before expanding upon it here.
-- Jadger 02:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Several of the sources in the War Crimes section do not confirm precisely what the article states, which is inexcusable. Secondly, (granted, the Anglo world and any other ethnic community is no stranger to its own biases and manipulative focus) if you are unable to find your "facts" represented to a similar extent in other, non-domestic sources, maybe you should check the sources that your Polish source cites. The printed paper era was not flawless, but academic standards went a long way - unlike the internet, that is a third complaint. As for the content, I do not doubt for a second that atrocities took place, but that is to be expected, regardless of Nation or era, and few other alternative army-related articles go into such explicit detail about the crimes committed within that certain country's ranks (for some reason, you found any broad mention of Soviet related atrocities disputable on the Free City of Danzig page). However, I will assume good faith, as I also agree that the Free State article would benefit from exact citation (by the way, I own a Time-Life source which explicitly mentions German women being nailed to barn doors and raped, beaten and so on and so forth. Another source you might want to check out is Eye for an Eye).-- Hohns3 09:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
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Added sources on atrocities in 1939, Polish history books are perfectly RS sources of information per Wikipedia. Also governmental sites can be used. Note that Szymon Datner is expert on the subject.-- Molobo ( talk) 15:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
<-- [7]. radek ( talk) 09:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Gumkowski and Leszczynski are historians not writers. The two professions of course are different, a historian is a scholar.-- Molobo ( talk) 17:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The current article mentions a battle of Orel in 1942. It links to a Battle of Orel that describes a conflict that took place in the Russian Civil war. I am not aware of any such battle in 1942. There was a battle in 1943 after the failure of Kursk, where the soviet armies forced the Germans out of the orel salient, this was called Operation Kutuzov ( talk) 29 September 2013 —Preceding undated comment added 09:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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– There is no ambiguity and no need for the parenthetical per WP:CONCISE/ WP:PRECISION. This nomination does not include divisions 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10 and 12, which are ambiguous. See relevant categories here, here and here. This should normally not be controversial, but WP:MILMOS § UNITNAME calls for preemptive disambiguation for "cases where a unit's name can reasonably be expected to be used by multiple armed forces". The problem with the status quo is that it strongly implies that there are several articles e.g. with the name 25th Panzer Division, while there is only one. — AjaxSmack 02:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)
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This has gone far enough.No reason for doubts were give.Throughout the discussion personal attacks, blocking without any justification accured, and yet nobody opposing adding information on the atrocities has given any reason why they believe the unit didn't do it. I am only doing this becuse the level of emotions in my opinion has reached hysteria: Quotes from the books have been used by another wiki user Szopen in discussion on wehrmacht war crimes on axis forum: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?p=466672 Since September the 1st to October 26th 1993, when Wehrmacht had full power over occupied Polish lands, from 764 executions, in which 24.000 people were killed, in 311 participated soldiers of Wehrmacht. It was documented by Szymon Datner in "55 days of Wehrmacht in Poland. Crimes done on civilian population in period 1.IX-25.X 1939", Warsaw 1967 and "Crimes of Wehrmacht - choosen documents", Warsaw 1974.
(Polish titles: "55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na ludnosci cywilnej w okresi 1.iX-25.X 1939" oraz "Zbronie Wehrmachtu - wybrane dokumenty"
2 and 3rd september 1939 in the region of Rybnik group of Polish soldiers from 12 pp was captured by Wehrmacht. They were given no pardon, "they were throwed to tha ground and over their bodies were driving tanks" (Szymon Datner, Crimes of Wehrmacht on prisoners of war during WWII", Warsaw 1964). September the 3rd near Radomsko Germans shot down POlish aircraft and captured two persons from crew. One prisoner after tortures (cutting his tongue, ears and nose) was murdered. It was done yb soldiers of 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army of Reichenau.
Shooting of prisoners or their mistreating were done by, amongst others, 2nd division of XVII corps of 14 army, 207 division infnatry of 4th army, 4 panzer division of XVI corps of 10th army.
-- Molobo 03:12, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
I have friends and relatives, such as prof. Aleksandr Kan, who were university scholars in a Communist dictatorship and they have my full trust, and I don't for a second believe that Polish cold war scholars were automatically unreliable
Your personal belief.If you don't produce a reliable source questioning the book that this stays your personal opinion. Believe me, Shauri has done her utmost to convince Molobo to behave like a civil Wikipedian, but has been met with nothing but contempt an Using false accusations an personal attacks ? Molobo has shown little sign of trustworthiness Speaking of trust-care finally to say what policy breaking led to block of my by you ? Doesn't speak much about your trustworthiness. -- Molobo 10:00, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
It should be also noted that Datner is used in scholary research to this day. There simply wasn't much political influence upon authors researching war crimes made by German forces in Poland, unless it dealt with Soviets or party. -- Molobo 10:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Current research on atrocities committed by German forces in Poland uses Datner's works as reference.
See
IPN
Regular bulletin of the institute from :
http://www.ipn.gov.pl/biuletyn8-9_43-44.pdf
Page 19 footnote : 2 Zob. w szczególności S. Datner, 55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na polskiej ludności cywilnej w okresie 1 IX–25 X 1939 r.,
2 Look in : Zob. w szczególności S. Datner, 55 dni Wehrmachtu w Polsce. Zbrodnie dokonane na polskiej ludności cywilnej w okresie 1 IX–25 X 1939 r., Warszawa 1967 -- Molobo 13:05, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
@Halibutt: Are your serious? We have to give sources that Molobo is wrong? This means that i can write everything, with sources from my old eastgerman history books, where the USA is the devil and the russians are godlike heros and the other user must show me that i'm wrong. If the war crime reproaches are true, then it should be easy to find a neutral and acceptable source.
But even if Molobo is true, it is absurd to write over every killed person, like " On September 6 yet another Polish prisoner of war was executed in the village of Czermno.". The inital sentence "Throughout its existence, the division was responsible for a number of war crimes" isn't documented with the rest of the text, which describes only war crimes at September 1939. Another missing but important detail is, which regiment(s) of the division did the war crimes (see also http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/4PD-R.htm ). -- Revvar 17:30, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
But even if Molobo is true, it is absurd to write over every killed person, like " On September 6 yet another Polish prisoner of war was executed in the village of Czermno.. This documents incidents of atrocities.Of course if they would murder 20people in one incident that wouldn't be divided by all of them but they would be counted together.If they aren't however its worth noting this incidents seperatly.Right now for example I am writing an article on one of Germn divisions who murdered almost 200 people in September Campaign.Its understandable that they won't be treated seperatly, except cases that researchers documenting the case have noted out(for example a German soldier smashing the head of 1.5 yearold child with his riffle during the massacre). As to regiments-that unfortunetly is hard to find out for researches, thats why term division is used or even better elements of the division-- Molobo 17:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Are your serious? We have to give sources that Molobo is wrong? This means that i can write everything, with sources from my old eastgerman history books, where the USA is the devil and the russians are godlike heros and the other user must show me that i'm wrong. Such simple portayal would be easly described as propaganda.However research on war atrocities is serious and the author is respectable researcher whos works are cited to this day by historians documenting the atrocities Wehrmacht engaged in. -- Molobo 17:42, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Ok, now that we have all the people involved in the quarrel using the talk page, we're halfways there. Good work everyone! In all negotiations the good place to start is the list of differences. I'll post what I draw from the above comments and correct me if I put something wrong.
Now on to my own oppinions: I was born and grew up in a city that has been brutally slaughtered by all sorts of German military formations, from Wehrmacht to Hiwis and from Gestapo to SS. Hence it is most probably easier for me to accept that Wehrmacht did commit the crimes it was accused of by several historians, be them modern or 1970's ones. On the contrary, someone born in West Germany and brought up in belief that the Wehrmacht was simply composed of soldiers fighting for their Fatherland and the bad guys were the SS and all the rest naturally finds it less credible. So, the proposed list of steps is as follows:
Does it seem a good way to settle this discpute? Or am I missing something here? Halibu tt 18:57, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Revvar thinks that we should present a source published after 1945 outside of Poland or a Polish source published after 1990 that would mention it.I already provided a resource mentioning the said book as a credible source of information in regards to atrocities made by Wehrmacht from beyond 1990. -- Molobo 19:36, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
As I said IPN uses Datner work today.But not only they do it, here we have: http://www.kean.edu/~hrc/filmsbooks.htm The Holocaust Resource Center (HRC) of Kean University opened its doors in the Fall semester of 1982. The Center is a joint initiative between the University and the Holocaust Resource Foundation, a private philanthropic organization. The Center collects and disseminates knowledge of the Holocaust to commemorate and strengthen education about the Holocaust. The mission of the HRC is to strengthen the conditions for a just and humane life in our society by collecting and disseminating knowledge of the Holocaust. The mandate for the HRC is to commemorate and strengthen education about the Holocaust. The Center offers an annual free lecture series and a tuition-free graduate course for teachers called “Teaching the Holocaust.” As enrollment in the course increased, it expanded from the University to various local school districts to allow for greater teacher preparation. The Center also offers a follow-up course called “Teaching Prejudice Reduction.” Thousands of teachers have participated in the project. The Center's educational programs serve as a resource for many Kean University students and members of the community.
The Resource Center also lists Datner as credible source of information: http://www.kean.edu/~hrc/filmsbooks.htm NEW BOOK ADDITIONS Added: (June 20, 2005) Datner, Szymon; Janusz Gumkowski;Kazimierz Leszcynski,War Crimes in Poland: Genocide 1939-1945 -- Molobo 22:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC) So as we can see Leszczynski, Gumkowski and Datner are certainly viewed as reliable source of information by modern scholars. -- Molobo 22:31, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Another example: http://www.umkc.edu/lib/spec-col/statland-bib.htm Suzanne Statland Collection in Holocaust Studies This bibliography lists 150 items that document the horrifying and abhorrent events that constitute the Holocaust. These materials represent only a very small cross-section of the Statland Collection in Holocaust Studies and other related research collections in the University of Missouri-Kansas City Libraries. Datner, Szymon; Gumkowski, Janusz; and Leszcynski, Kazimierz. Genocide 1939-1945. War Crimes in Poland. Warsaw: Wydawnictwo Zachodnie, 1962. -- Molobo 22:32, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
Another example of modern scholars using Datner as credible reference: (warning the page is long) http://raven.cc.ku.edu/~eceurope/hist557/BiblPt2.htm (Cienciala, revised Feb.-March 2004).
(iv) The Poles under the German occupation.
Szymon Datner, Janusz Gumkowski, Kazimierz Leszczynski, War Crimes in Poland. Genocide 1939-1945, Wydawnictwo Zachodnie, Poznan, Warsaw, 1962.
Deals with German war crimes against the Polish population; has lists of executions by location. (see also Pilichowski below) -- Molobo 22:38, 2 November 2005 (UTC)
A fistful of translations for Revvar:
Note that the translations are quite harsh and that in some instances I copied the Polish terms rather than translating them. In particular the Polish term hitlerowiec is hard to translate. It literally means man of Hitler and can be translated to, depending on context or personal preferrence, to either Nazi, hitlerite or German. Also note that in Polish the division onto German and Nazi in context of WWII is not as strong as in English. In particular calling Auschwitz a German camp is perfectly ok in Polish, while in Germany it would rather be called Nazi camp. Halibu tt 17:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
Hello, I edited the War Crimes section. Till sufficient sources are brought forth for every member of this division being guilty of a war crime a broad generalization is not correct. The same for some of those war crimes mentioned. Sources are needed! Kenaz9 13:18, 10 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't want to get into the discussion about whether those alleged war crimes really happened or not. It is more questionable for me to state all alleged "minor war crimes". WW2 was full of actions were eg POWs were killed and civilian collateral damages accepted: "Dehumanization" took place on both sides, everywhere. Having said this, I don't want to sanitize the Wehrmacht from any single crime one of its members had committed. But due to the fact that those actions happened on a daily basis everywhere, this page would be blown out of proportion in case you want to mention every crime. Therefore, I would suggest that you only mention well documented "major war crimes" like Malmedy or Oradour.
@Halibutt: What are your intents, when you write such things about me: "... so Revvar would not even find it credible." , "Bashing all Polish historians just because they published their books between 1939 an 1990 is not what I would expect of a reasonable person.", " Revvar (what a nice name, but shouldn't it be rather Revwar?)", "the other side (that would be you, Revvar and Shauri) should also provide some help and not only accusations of bad faith of one of the people involved."? You appear to believe to know what i'm "really" mean. Making jokes about other user names is'nt a sign of earnestness.
I want to clarify that i'm neither a "fan" of the 4th Panzer Division, nor do i believe that the Wehrmacht did not any war crimes.
I'm confused about all your links. How many prime sources we have now? Are all sources are based on Datners book(s)? Btw i'm not a polish, so it would be nice if you can show me the text parts, where the 4th Panzer Division is blamed.
The picture: Does " German 15th Motorized Infantry Regiment" is the translation of "Kradschützen-Bataillon 15"? Do you have sources with a higher resolution?
-- Revvar 08:59, 4 November 2005 (UTC)
I would like to put this argument about the idea of the Germans using a "human sheild" as a war crime. they did not do such an act, if one is to research common WWII frontline practise u would know that all land within 8 miles of the front lines were evacuated as quickly as possible. That is what happened here, the civilian population was being forced out of the area as to common military practises, and they were to go back to their own nation's lands, not the foreign forces side. Jadger 08:05, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Thanks You Lysy, I have the book Panzer Commander: The Memoirs of Colonel Hans von Luck, which describes the protocols I described above. If no one can come up with a source for these statements that source can be better used to clarify that it was an accident.
Also, I would like to find a way of clarifying where it says 3 polish soldiers in civilian clothing were shot. According to the Geneva Convention those men could be punished (executed) for not being recognized combatants. As well I have noticed that all these statements of Polish soldiers being shot does not tell us anything other then they are shot. They were still subject to laws like everyone else, so perhaps they were being punished according to the Geneva Convention. there is not enough information given, so please whomever is the one who wrote that please clarify. Jadger 08:21, 6 March 2006 (UTC)
Obviously the contents of the War Crimes section is controversial and is going to be disputed now and in the future. Therefore, it would be useful if the sources of the facts mentioned in this section are properly referenced, whoever put them there. -- Lysy talk 17:13, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
I suggest to give it some credit of trust and assume a grace period, say one week, until the end of March 15 to have the information in this section properly referenced. Would anyone object to this ? I have to admit I'll not be able to find supporting sources for that. I believe Halibutt might have some references ? Would a week be enough ? -- Lysy talk 19:25, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
Many thanks. While generally I would not trust individual web sites that much, these seem fairly consistent. I've also found a book reference of the Śladow events in "Puszcza Kampinoska" by Lechosław Herz, Pruszków 2002, page 289. He does not, however, identify the German unit responsible for murdering the civilians and the POWs, only uses term Nazi ("hitlerowcy") to name them. A small thing I've noticed is that the sources are not consistent on the number of victims (one claims 150, another 252+106) but I guess getting the exact number of murdered could be difficult. Unfortunately IPN's site remains silent about this. -- Lysy talk 23:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)
which number will we use then if concrete proof has not been found? Will we say, "estimates of number of dead range from 150 up to 252+106"? Unfortunately feldgrau and the other databases on the unit's history simply state its location as "Poland". If we were to tie its location directly to the specific area, then I would be willing to say that more then likely this unit was responsible, unless there is information of a Nazi unit in the area (such as SS or whatever organization was in charge of the criminal actions at the time). I still think a direct quotation would work best, specifically in the part concerning the torture methods used on Polish aircrew.
Also the reference to "human shields" is troubling, as I have stated on the Battle of Mokra talk page.
-- Jadger 00:31, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
"about 300 POWs and civilians" could be misinterpreted into being 600 people total though. and that still does not give any information into the situation of the executions. did that quoted sentence stand alone or was there more information in the surrounding paragraphs? such as recent combat or partisan action in the area.
-- Jadger 01:10, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
that seems fine, but I still think more information is needed. Not meaning to just start "what ifs" but perhaps the murders were a retaliation for inflicting heavy casualties upon the attacking force, or in response for the Silesian Uprisings, where there were atrocities and strong arm tactics on both sides. After all, this was in a part of Poland that had been ceded to Poland after the Silesian Uprsisings. beign stationed just accross teh border before invasion, it is highly probable that the troops heard extravagant tales of Polish actions during the uprisings, and wanted some form of vengeance.
Now on to the subject of "human shields". As I have stated previously, it was common military practise to clear 8 miles within the combat zone of civilians, to prevent espionage and collateral damage. Since this occurence happened on the first day of battle, the refugees from the taken areas would only be able to move towards the Polish forces, as moving behind German lines would of made them illegal migrants in Germany and would of more then likely gone to concentration camps. Of course at this time they thought allied troops would land in Poland and aid them, so perhaps the refugees moved back to Polish areas in hope of Poland not losing. The specifics on whether or not it was a case of "human shield" tactics I have started discussion on the Battle of Mokra talk page, so perhaps look at that before expanding upon it here.
-- Jadger 02:21, 9 March 2006 (UTC)
Several of the sources in the War Crimes section do not confirm precisely what the article states, which is inexcusable. Secondly, (granted, the Anglo world and any other ethnic community is no stranger to its own biases and manipulative focus) if you are unable to find your "facts" represented to a similar extent in other, non-domestic sources, maybe you should check the sources that your Polish source cites. The printed paper era was not flawless, but academic standards went a long way - unlike the internet, that is a third complaint. As for the content, I do not doubt for a second that atrocities took place, but that is to be expected, regardless of Nation or era, and few other alternative army-related articles go into such explicit detail about the crimes committed within that certain country's ranks (for some reason, you found any broad mention of Soviet related atrocities disputable on the Free City of Danzig page). However, I will assume good faith, as I also agree that the Free State article would benefit from exact citation (by the way, I own a Time-Life source which explicitly mentions German women being nailed to barn doors and raped, beaten and so on and so forth. Another source you might want to check out is Eye for an Eye).-- Hohns3 09:15, 2 April 2006 (UTC)
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Added sources on atrocities in 1939, Polish history books are perfectly RS sources of information per Wikipedia. Also governmental sites can be used. Note that Szymon Datner is expert on the subject.-- Molobo ( talk) 15:54, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
<-- [7]. radek ( talk) 09:30, 16 March 2009 (UTC)
Gumkowski and Leszczynski are historians not writers. The two professions of course are different, a historian is a scholar.-- Molobo ( talk) 17:54, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
The current article mentions a battle of Orel in 1942. It links to a Battle of Orel that describes a conflict that took place in the Russian Civil war. I am not aware of any such battle in 1942. There was a battle in 1943 after the failure of Kursk, where the soviet armies forced the Germans out of the orel salient, this was called Operation Kutuzov ( talk) 29 September 2013 —Preceding undated comment added 09:02, 29 September 2013 (UTC)
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– There is no ambiguity and no need for the parenthetical per WP:CONCISE/ WP:PRECISION. This nomination does not include divisions 1, 2, 3, 5, 7, 9, 10 and 12, which are ambiguous. See relevant categories here, here and here. This should normally not be controversial, but WP:MILMOS § UNITNAME calls for preemptive disambiguation for "cases where a unit's name can reasonably be expected to be used by multiple armed forces". The problem with the status quo is that it strongly implies that there are several articles e.g. with the name 25th Panzer Division, while there is only one. — AjaxSmack 02:50, 23 July 2024 (UTC)