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Hi, in the part on the left where you click to check the page in different languages, the Japanese one doesn't link to the Japanese 2chn Wiki article. It instead links to a murder case ( https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A5%88%E8%89%AF%E5%B0%8F1%E5%A5%B3%E5%85%90%E6%AE%BA%E5%AE%B3%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6) Idk how to correct that myself, if anybody could, that'd be cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:103E:1A:2C77:8162:6AD9:53BF:8838 ( talk) 16:41, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
And here are some possible solutions:
I might have a WP:COI, so am holding off on fixing it (at least for the moment), as I wrote at User talk:GRuban. Psiĥedelisto ( talk) 22:51, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@ GRuban: I do wish you would have pinged me. I've spent multiple days now refactoring User:Psiĥedelisto/2channel, and was just coming here to see if Goszei was interested in looking it over before I do the final push in the next few days. Please have a look yourself, but remember it's by no means done. The main things that remain to do are: (a) Finish up the end of the history. (b) Add a reference to the Korean DDoS of 2010, I found it reported in AFP via The Telegraph. (c) Figure out the delicate issue of how much it matters that 8chan was DDoS'd in 2015, bringing 2channel down for days. That was widely reported and probably deserves at least a sentence; for many 2channel users it was their first time learning Watkins had acquired 8chan. (d) Clean up the machine translated sections, and figure out what we can cite, and what is just hearsay. From reading them, they make little sense, so I feel that most is hearsay, but I will try to rescue as much as possible.
I feel that once you read my draft, you'll see that I'm not overly favoring Nishimura. In fact, I thought that I could be much more gentle on him when I started. Then I started digging into the sources, and they took me places, and I wrote what mattered despite my personal feelings on who is "in the right". Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) 09:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you GRuban for the below review. I will ping you when I'm ready for you to look again. All your comments are well taken. Perhaps we really can get this up to a WP:GA together, I'd like that. Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) 03:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Minor hopefully undisputable tweaks directly in text, larger or possibly disputable ones here. I haven't been following the diffs, so realize that you may not have written all the text these comments are about, so "not my change" is a legitimate response; but if you want to improve the article in this place anyway, that would be great.
* "In 2009, the site's ownership was transferred to Packet Monster Inc, a company based in Chinatown, Singapore, before its domain, 2ch.net, was repossessed by its registrar, N. T. Technology, in 2014." This is confusing - are you writing that the two events were connected? If so, it's not obvious, it was 5 years in between after all. In fact this is in the same paragraph with "In 2008, the site was reported to have generated an annual revenue in upwards of ¥100 million." which, presumably, means it was very profitable (I'm not up on Yen exchange rates), but the repossession implies that it ran into financial difficulties; if so, that's kind of important and we should say so explicitly. If all these events are unconnected, we should make that more clear as well.
* "2ch.sc, owned by its original founder through Packet Monster Inc" - this is even more confusing; earlier lead says ownership was transferred to Packet Monster, but now it's owned by the original founder? Did Packet Monster sell it back, or was PM always owned by Nishimura, and the original sale was just shuffling papers, or what?
* Throughout, "Packet Monster Inc" - I think we need to use a period after "Inc." which is at least encouraged if not individually called out in
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations#Shortenings.
* "as of May 2020 redirects to 5ch.net" - first, this means 5channel? We should say so, either here or earlier where we first mention 5channel.
** "... Nishimura... has attempted to repossess the domain" Second, can we get an earlier date than May 2020, since presumably Nishimura's attempts were earlier than just this month?
* "Meanwhile, as of May 2020, 2ch.sc had 826 boards receiving around 5,700 posts daily,[17] making 2ch.sc about 1% of the size of 5channel." - we need to rephrase something like "in terms of users" or "... posts", because in terms of numbers of boards it seems comparable.
* "A year before the credit card leak and subsequent split, " Credit card leak? This is the first time we mention it, we should explain first, or leave it until the body.
* "in 2007 it received more than 2.5 million daily." It's confusing to mix dates with relative times as above. Also, shouldn't we put this paragraph chronologically? I understand you're trying to contrast dramatically, but I think the contrast is sufficient chronologically, while ease of comprehension is more important, we're an encyclopedia, "boring" is almost a synonym.
* "and sometimes retrospectively as 2ch.net" - was it really known as 2ch.net, or was that just its URL? I mean, I don't think the article about Google says it's also known as Google.com. If you want, "also known as 2ch from its original URL 2ch.net", maybe?
* "was reported to have generated an annual revenue in upwards of ¥100 million" - again
WP:WEASEL "was reported to" - is there any conflicting source? If not, I'd remove those; also "in upwards", as not only a grammar error, but not what the sources say, they just say about 100 mill.
* "was hosted in San Francisco, California[7][1] by Jim Watkins, a US army veteran, domain registrar and dedicated hosting service provider.[9]" - I removed the veteran bit. It's useful in the body, but not in the intro, which is a summary, and it doesn't really play any part in the story. I'm posting here to ask if there is a way to rephrase to something like "was hosted and domain registered in California by Jim Watkins." while linking appropriately and still being grammatical (I'm not sure if "domain registered" is really a verb that people use) in the interest of conciseness?
* "Despite widespread use, 2channel and its successors are also more controversial than other social media in Japan": then you list right wing and defamation, how about adding crime announcements, and drug trade, which are each given noticeable weight below? Also I'm not sure if the word "Despite" is appropriate; I hear of plenty of media outlets that try to become controversial in order to gain popularity. Finally are both successors as controversial in these ways as the original was?
* "Meanwhile, as of May 2020," "making 2ch.sc about 1% of the size of 5channel in terms of posts." - I'd consider leaving both of those bits out, and maybe replacing the first with "At the same time", or combining the sentences with "while". Is there a source comparing the two in terms of size? If not, we probably shouldn't do that so prominently. Finally, is this a summary of the body text? It should be; in other words, this information should also be in the body, possibly even in more detail. I agree it's important enough to also be in the lead.
@ GRuban: Thanks, Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) 14:07, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
* "2ch was opened on 30 May 1999" - "opened"? Do you "open" a website? Maybe founded, started?
* " served as the successor to an earlier anonymous textboard known as Ayashii World" In what sense? Also owned by Nishimura? Much frequented by Nishimura but not owned? Something else?
* the website enjoyed a greater degree of immunity to legal action - pretty controversial statement, needs a source
* "in comparison to its predecessors" - there were more?
** We want to explain why 2chan was different from/more successful than its predecessors. I see the Wired article says it wasn't much different from other BBSs, the main difference was the freedom of speech, in closeted Japan. We should say that (and source it).
* "Jim Watkins, through Race Queen Inc. and N. T. Technology Inc., hosted the site since at least 2004." Since he's going to be a major character, we should write something about him as an introduction. Was he a professional website host, before getting involved with Nishimura? Did he specialize in Japan, textboards, something else?
* "is allegedly a reference" - is there any doubt of this? Unless the source says something like allegedly, or unless there are other sources that dispute it, we shouldn't
MOS:ALLEGED; if there is a dispute we should make the dispute clear.
* "In 2010," - what?
* "Nishimura announced 2channel on Amezou in May 1999, calling it "Amezou's second channel"." - nice, but needs a bit of clarification ("I don't know" is a possible, but do try to check your sources for these, I can't read the Japanese, I'm afraid)
* " since at least 2004[8] through various corporate identities, including Big-server.com Inc.,[28] Pacific Internet Exchange LLC[29] and N. T. Technology Inc.[30]" - I can't read the Japanese, but at least the Washington Post link doesn't seem to back that N. T. Technology ever hosted 2chan as such, certainly not since 2004. It says "...Loki Technology, owns the popular Japanese message board 5channel." --
GRuban (
talk)
02:07, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
* The section title implies the ownership transfer was specifically to avoid scrutiny. Is this intended? If so we need to say so straight out and source it. An earlier sentence said "greater degree of immunity to legal action" - we should probably make that more explicit and source it as well, as it's not immediately apparent that being a textboard means you are regularly in trouble with the law.
* Section title: was the important part the credit card leak, or the personal information leak?
* " various high level personas such as politicians and writers" - any people with articles here that can/should be named? If all we know is the pop group, who are the politicians? I see one writer named in the source article, but writers are less inherently high level, and 2chan's own attorney, though good to mention, is not really a high level persona
* "It allowed users to read old threads; if a thread on 2channel received 1,000 posts, it would become part of the kako rogu (過去ログ, lit. past log) by a process of ".dat omission" - I like that you're trying to explain the process, but you didn't quite make it clear; why would reading old threads allow access to credit card info, and why is ".dat omission" so important? Omission is leaving out, so why is leaving out info a leak?
* You removed the bit about identity theft and lawsuits. Maybe we could instead restore and source that?
* The title "repossession" implies that Watkins owned ... something. The domain name? The hardware running the site? How/why?
* I linked to
Web scraping and
Real-time web to explain the terms, if that's not correct, please redirect, but I think it's not obvious otherwise. Not all of our readers will be web professionals.
* "a domain and trademark owned by Loki Technology, Inc." - also Watkins? Worth a note and cite saying so, or just leaving out if we can't source it. There are more shell corporations here than on an oyster bed!
* "In 2018, Nishimura won a lawsuit against Watkins in the Tokyo District Court." - in what sense, and what effect did it have? Won the rights to the name "2channel", to the URL, or what? --
GRuban (
talk)
02:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
* I'm not sure this is worth a separate section - so he put a copyright mark on the site, most sites have one. Did it not have one before? Even if it's new with Watkins, this seems like a reaction to the scraping, so seems like worth a sentence in the previous section instead.
* "He makes two contradictory legal claims: [40]" - what?
* "/poverty/" (in Matome section) - what? --
GRuban (
talk)
02:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
* This only has one "Densha Otoko" subsection that can probably be moved up, and definitely needs a reference. I know, not your work, but as long as you're here, could you?
Unfortunately, many of the sources are in Japanese, a language I cannot read, and don't know much about. So there is some chance experts will be able to correct my comments here; but many of the sources seem weak for rather controversial information.
* Some bare links need just a few words of explanation - the link will give more details, of course, but we shold give some minimal warning where the link is going. For example
* various news reports often use the phrase "the online bulletin board says" - this needs a citation.
:: @
GRuban: I tried for two hours to source this and was not able, either via Japanese or English sources. (It came from Japanese Wikipedia and wasn't my writing.) I'm sure it's true as I've watched my fair share of Japanese TV, but that doesn't matter. Instead, I've toned it down. Removed often, the worst word, and added another source that provides a lot of context for 2channel's content appearing in the media. I'm sorry if I seem to be taking your requests out of order: I like to focus on the most difficult stuff first then make many small changes all at once.
Psiĥedelisto (
talk •
contribs) please always
ping!
02:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
* conservative Shokun! magazine, during its operation, formerly ran - don't need both of these qualifiers, either "during its operation" or "formerly", both are redundant. Also, do we need to specify it was conservative?
@ Psiĥedelisto: In general, this work is very well done, and I would be surprised if you can't get this to GA status. -- GRuban ( talk) 02:46, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Again, awesome work. -- GRuban ( talk) 22:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
inconclusive resultsthen
Nishimura has attempted to repossess the domain both through WIPO's Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy and through the Japanese court system.already handles it. (3) Seems fixed (4) Tried to fix this too. Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) please always ping! 10:59, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Psiĥedelisto: All looks good, impressive work! We can close this section or let it be archived or something like that. Thank you! -- GRuban ( talk) 19:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Psiĥedelisto: Great work so far; I have a few comments myself.
— Goszei ( talk) 19:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:37, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Goszei and GRuban: S'il vous plaît, join me on a journey into the weeds...(this is my reply to § Repossession/Domain seizure and split, GRuban).
Or, skip the weeds and go right to § What should Wikipedia do?
I posted on 2channel way before making 8chan or meeting Watkins. I am JLPT N2.
I like comparative law. I especially like researching how colonized countries adopt the legal systems of their colonizers, and turn them on their heads. I am not a lawyer, but I consider myself a (non-traditional, unorthodox) law student. I may indeed take the California Bar via the mentorship route, or I may not, who even knows if the United States will still exist in 2022. Perhaps California will be sovereign once again!
Japan has a three-tier legal system, plus a bunch of quasi-judicial bodies. For our purposes, at least as of when I'm writing this, the only quasi-judicial body that matters is the Japan Patent Office.
The tiers are: district court, high court, supreme court. Very typical layout. For our purposes, all the cases I know of have been filed in Tokyo. So, it goes Tokyo District Court → Tokyo High Court → Supreme Court of Japan.
It is a civil law system, with some Americanism thrown in due to the country's constitution, which has remained virtually unchanged since that war that went rather badly for them. Although, that could change soon.
References
The reason it took me so long to get back to you, GRuban, is because of how impenetrable the system is. I reached out to two subject matter experts, who I will not mention their names, but say, they both write for well-respected Japanese newspapers, and are both native Japanese speakers. Even they find the system impenetrable, but they helped me get this far.
So, who has won what? That's the question I'm trying to answer. I'm going to engage in some WP:OR which is totally not suitable for inclusion in the article and tell you, my interpretation of the cases, just for background, before I go into possible solutions to this conundrum:
References
So, let me stare into the crystal ball and try to figure out what could happen here. Most likely, nothing. Unlikely, if Nishimura gets a finally executory order in Case №1, and Case №3 is truly not an impediment to him and was rejected for some other reason, and despite the move to 5ch.net he wants to keep fighting this battle, he can sue Watkins and N.T. Technology, Inc. in US federal court, and ask the judge to enforce his foreign court order via the Uniform Foreign Money Judgments Recognition Act. Now, question, is the domain a money judgment? Even if not, it still might be possible under the common law, see this treatment of the matter by the International Comparative Legal Guide.
However, exceptions apply, including one to me personally: the SPEECH Act. Any cyberlibel judgment found against me is unenforcable in the United States, where I now live. Does a similar exception exist in this case? We can't say because there's no order yet.
OK. Now that I've bored you with my WP:OR WP:CRYSTAL, here's my suggestion for how to change the article.
@ Goszei and GRuban: Thoughts? Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) please always ping! 04:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
The citation for this statement does not actually explain the website's name in any way, it only discusses 2channel's alleged connection to the 2008 Akihabara massacre. In an archive of a thread where Hiroyuki first advertises 2channel on Amezou, Hiroyuki implies that the name "2channel" was meant to convey how the website was a second channel for Amezou and could house the extra boards that Amezou wouldn't quickly consider for his website.
Takahiro Karasawa does not serve 2channel. He's just a lawyer that 2channel users turned into a meme and there's a long story behind that.
The /poverty/ board was established and announced back in December 28, 2007, not 2012. Hiroyuki had announced this in an /operate/ thread and allowed users to fiddle with its board settings in another thread.
– Nameless( ?) 05:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
---|
Reviewing |
Reviewer: NamelessRumia ( talk · contribs) 05:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
As the author of a website that covers Japanese internet culture such as 2channel, [7], I believe that this article fulfills Wikipedia's Good Article criteria. The article is comprehensive, well-written, and well-sourced.
The result was: promoted by
Vincent60030 (
talk)
18:21, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
[T]here is now a war waging behind the scenes at 2chan as to whom really controls it—Nishimura or the U.S.-based Jim Watkins, who overtook the domain in 2014.; Gabriela Kennedy; et al. (2016-07-28). "WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2016-1025 (2ch.net)". World Intellectual Property Organization. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
The Complainant (Hiroyuki Nishimura)'s submissions can be summarized as follows: [..] The Respondent has no rights or legitimate interests in the Disputed Domain Name. The Complainant has never transferred, licensed or granted any rights to the Respondent to use the Disputed Domain Name.; Nishimura, Hiroyuki (2015-09-22). "Q&A Session with Hiroyuki Nishimura". 4chan. Bibliotheca Anonoma. Retrieved 2020-06-28 – via Desu Archive.
And, they were almost bankrupt. So, Jim stole 2ch.net domain and systems. It is what happened.(most popular online community) Sakamoto, Rumi (2011-03-07). "'Koreans, Go Home!' Internet Nationalism in Contemporary Japan as a Digitally Mediated Subculture". The Asia-Pacific Journal. 9 (10). Retrieved 2020-05-22.
2-channeru, or 2-chan for short, is Japan's most popular online community, with around ten million users accessing it each day.(Watkins owns 8chan) Harwell, Drew; McLaughlin, Timothy (2019-09-12). "From helicopter repairman to leader of the Internet's 'darkest reaches': The life and times of 8chan owner Jim Watkins". Washington Post. Retrieved 2020-05-21.
Improved to Good Article status by Psiĥedelisto ( talk) and GRuban ( talk). Nominated by Psiĥedelisto ( talk) at 06:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC).
I tried to find discussion on this, sorry if I searched stupidly -- is there a reason this very recent GA still has so many citations in the lead? —valereee ( talk) 13:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Alpha Omega 2603:8080:BB00:3B76:995:9FE5:4B81:3A5 ( talk) 07:31, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
<fe.6> 2603:8080:BB00:3B76:995:9FE5:4B81:3A5 ( talk) 07:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
let's play Minecraft 50.106.68.237 ( talk) 17:19, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
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4chan owner
Hiroyuki Nishimura claims that
2channel, once "Japan's most popular online community", was stolen from him? |
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Hi, in the part on the left where you click to check the page in different languages, the Japanese one doesn't link to the Japanese 2chn Wiki article. It instead links to a murder case ( https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%A5%88%E8%89%AF%E5%B0%8F1%E5%A5%B3%E5%85%90%E6%AE%BA%E5%AE%B3%E4%BA%8B%E4%BB%B6) Idk how to correct that myself, if anybody could, that'd be cool — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2806:103E:1A:2C77:8162:6AD9:53BF:8838 ( talk) 16:41, 24 April 2020 (UTC)
And here are some possible solutions:
I might have a WP:COI, so am holding off on fixing it (at least for the moment), as I wrote at User talk:GRuban. Psiĥedelisto ( talk) 22:51, 15 May 2020 (UTC)
@ GRuban: I do wish you would have pinged me. I've spent multiple days now refactoring User:Psiĥedelisto/2channel, and was just coming here to see if Goszei was interested in looking it over before I do the final push in the next few days. Please have a look yourself, but remember it's by no means done. The main things that remain to do are: (a) Finish up the end of the history. (b) Add a reference to the Korean DDoS of 2010, I found it reported in AFP via The Telegraph. (c) Figure out the delicate issue of how much it matters that 8chan was DDoS'd in 2015, bringing 2channel down for days. That was widely reported and probably deserves at least a sentence; for many 2channel users it was their first time learning Watkins had acquired 8chan. (d) Clean up the machine translated sections, and figure out what we can cite, and what is just hearsay. From reading them, they make little sense, so I feel that most is hearsay, but I will try to rescue as much as possible.
I feel that once you read my draft, you'll see that I'm not overly favoring Nishimura. In fact, I thought that I could be much more gentle on him when I started. Then I started digging into the sources, and they took me places, and I wrote what mattered despite my personal feelings on who is "in the right". Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) 09:33, 20 May 2020 (UTC)
Thank you GRuban for the below review. I will ping you when I'm ready for you to look again. All your comments are well taken. Perhaps we really can get this up to a WP:GA together, I'd like that. Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) 03:13, 21 May 2020 (UTC)
Minor hopefully undisputable tweaks directly in text, larger or possibly disputable ones here. I haven't been following the diffs, so realize that you may not have written all the text these comments are about, so "not my change" is a legitimate response; but if you want to improve the article in this place anyway, that would be great.
* "In 2009, the site's ownership was transferred to Packet Monster Inc, a company based in Chinatown, Singapore, before its domain, 2ch.net, was repossessed by its registrar, N. T. Technology, in 2014." This is confusing - are you writing that the two events were connected? If so, it's not obvious, it was 5 years in between after all. In fact this is in the same paragraph with "In 2008, the site was reported to have generated an annual revenue in upwards of ¥100 million." which, presumably, means it was very profitable (I'm not up on Yen exchange rates), but the repossession implies that it ran into financial difficulties; if so, that's kind of important and we should say so explicitly. If all these events are unconnected, we should make that more clear as well.
* "2ch.sc, owned by its original founder through Packet Monster Inc" - this is even more confusing; earlier lead says ownership was transferred to Packet Monster, but now it's owned by the original founder? Did Packet Monster sell it back, or was PM always owned by Nishimura, and the original sale was just shuffling papers, or what?
* Throughout, "Packet Monster Inc" - I think we need to use a period after "Inc." which is at least encouraged if not individually called out in
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Abbreviations#Shortenings.
* "as of May 2020 redirects to 5ch.net" - first, this means 5channel? We should say so, either here or earlier where we first mention 5channel.
** "... Nishimura... has attempted to repossess the domain" Second, can we get an earlier date than May 2020, since presumably Nishimura's attempts were earlier than just this month?
* "Meanwhile, as of May 2020, 2ch.sc had 826 boards receiving around 5,700 posts daily,[17] making 2ch.sc about 1% of the size of 5channel." - we need to rephrase something like "in terms of users" or "... posts", because in terms of numbers of boards it seems comparable.
* "A year before the credit card leak and subsequent split, " Credit card leak? This is the first time we mention it, we should explain first, or leave it until the body.
* "in 2007 it received more than 2.5 million daily." It's confusing to mix dates with relative times as above. Also, shouldn't we put this paragraph chronologically? I understand you're trying to contrast dramatically, but I think the contrast is sufficient chronologically, while ease of comprehension is more important, we're an encyclopedia, "boring" is almost a synonym.
* "and sometimes retrospectively as 2ch.net" - was it really known as 2ch.net, or was that just its URL? I mean, I don't think the article about Google says it's also known as Google.com. If you want, "also known as 2ch from its original URL 2ch.net", maybe?
* "was reported to have generated an annual revenue in upwards of ¥100 million" - again
WP:WEASEL "was reported to" - is there any conflicting source? If not, I'd remove those; also "in upwards", as not only a grammar error, but not what the sources say, they just say about 100 mill.
* "was hosted in San Francisco, California[7][1] by Jim Watkins, a US army veteran, domain registrar and dedicated hosting service provider.[9]" - I removed the veteran bit. It's useful in the body, but not in the intro, which is a summary, and it doesn't really play any part in the story. I'm posting here to ask if there is a way to rephrase to something like "was hosted and domain registered in California by Jim Watkins." while linking appropriately and still being grammatical (I'm not sure if "domain registered" is really a verb that people use) in the interest of conciseness?
* "Despite widespread use, 2channel and its successors are also more controversial than other social media in Japan": then you list right wing and defamation, how about adding crime announcements, and drug trade, which are each given noticeable weight below? Also I'm not sure if the word "Despite" is appropriate; I hear of plenty of media outlets that try to become controversial in order to gain popularity. Finally are both successors as controversial in these ways as the original was?
* "Meanwhile, as of May 2020," "making 2ch.sc about 1% of the size of 5channel in terms of posts." - I'd consider leaving both of those bits out, and maybe replacing the first with "At the same time", or combining the sentences with "while". Is there a source comparing the two in terms of size? If not, we probably shouldn't do that so prominently. Finally, is this a summary of the body text? It should be; in other words, this information should also be in the body, possibly even in more detail. I agree it's important enough to also be in the lead.
@ GRuban: Thanks, Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) 14:07, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
* "2ch was opened on 30 May 1999" - "opened"? Do you "open" a website? Maybe founded, started?
* " served as the successor to an earlier anonymous textboard known as Ayashii World" In what sense? Also owned by Nishimura? Much frequented by Nishimura but not owned? Something else?
* the website enjoyed a greater degree of immunity to legal action - pretty controversial statement, needs a source
* "in comparison to its predecessors" - there were more?
** We want to explain why 2chan was different from/more successful than its predecessors. I see the Wired article says it wasn't much different from other BBSs, the main difference was the freedom of speech, in closeted Japan. We should say that (and source it).
* "Jim Watkins, through Race Queen Inc. and N. T. Technology Inc., hosted the site since at least 2004." Since he's going to be a major character, we should write something about him as an introduction. Was he a professional website host, before getting involved with Nishimura? Did he specialize in Japan, textboards, something else?
* "is allegedly a reference" - is there any doubt of this? Unless the source says something like allegedly, or unless there are other sources that dispute it, we shouldn't
MOS:ALLEGED; if there is a dispute we should make the dispute clear.
* "In 2010," - what?
* "Nishimura announced 2channel on Amezou in May 1999, calling it "Amezou's second channel"." - nice, but needs a bit of clarification ("I don't know" is a possible, but do try to check your sources for these, I can't read the Japanese, I'm afraid)
* " since at least 2004[8] through various corporate identities, including Big-server.com Inc.,[28] Pacific Internet Exchange LLC[29] and N. T. Technology Inc.[30]" - I can't read the Japanese, but at least the Washington Post link doesn't seem to back that N. T. Technology ever hosted 2chan as such, certainly not since 2004. It says "...Loki Technology, owns the popular Japanese message board 5channel." --
GRuban (
talk)
02:07, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
* The section title implies the ownership transfer was specifically to avoid scrutiny. Is this intended? If so we need to say so straight out and source it. An earlier sentence said "greater degree of immunity to legal action" - we should probably make that more explicit and source it as well, as it's not immediately apparent that being a textboard means you are regularly in trouble with the law.
* Section title: was the important part the credit card leak, or the personal information leak?
* " various high level personas such as politicians and writers" - any people with articles here that can/should be named? If all we know is the pop group, who are the politicians? I see one writer named in the source article, but writers are less inherently high level, and 2chan's own attorney, though good to mention, is not really a high level persona
* "It allowed users to read old threads; if a thread on 2channel received 1,000 posts, it would become part of the kako rogu (過去ログ, lit. past log) by a process of ".dat omission" - I like that you're trying to explain the process, but you didn't quite make it clear; why would reading old threads allow access to credit card info, and why is ".dat omission" so important? Omission is leaving out, so why is leaving out info a leak?
* You removed the bit about identity theft and lawsuits. Maybe we could instead restore and source that?
* The title "repossession" implies that Watkins owned ... something. The domain name? The hardware running the site? How/why?
* I linked to
Web scraping and
Real-time web to explain the terms, if that's not correct, please redirect, but I think it's not obvious otherwise. Not all of our readers will be web professionals.
* "a domain and trademark owned by Loki Technology, Inc." - also Watkins? Worth a note and cite saying so, or just leaving out if we can't source it. There are more shell corporations here than on an oyster bed!
* "In 2018, Nishimura won a lawsuit against Watkins in the Tokyo District Court." - in what sense, and what effect did it have? Won the rights to the name "2channel", to the URL, or what? --
GRuban (
talk)
02:20, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
* I'm not sure this is worth a separate section - so he put a copyright mark on the site, most sites have one. Did it not have one before? Even if it's new with Watkins, this seems like a reaction to the scraping, so seems like worth a sentence in the previous section instead.
* "He makes two contradictory legal claims: [40]" - what?
* "/poverty/" (in Matome section) - what? --
GRuban (
talk)
02:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
* This only has one "Densha Otoko" subsection that can probably be moved up, and definitely needs a reference. I know, not your work, but as long as you're here, could you?
Unfortunately, many of the sources are in Japanese, a language I cannot read, and don't know much about. So there is some chance experts will be able to correct my comments here; but many of the sources seem weak for rather controversial information.
* Some bare links need just a few words of explanation - the link will give more details, of course, but we shold give some minimal warning where the link is going. For example
* various news reports often use the phrase "the online bulletin board says" - this needs a citation.
:: @
GRuban: I tried for two hours to source this and was not able, either via Japanese or English sources. (It came from Japanese Wikipedia and wasn't my writing.) I'm sure it's true as I've watched my fair share of Japanese TV, but that doesn't matter. Instead, I've toned it down. Removed often, the worst word, and added another source that provides a lot of context for 2channel's content appearing in the media. I'm sorry if I seem to be taking your requests out of order: I like to focus on the most difficult stuff first then make many small changes all at once.
Psiĥedelisto (
talk •
contribs) please always
ping!
02:34, 5 June 2020 (UTC)
* conservative Shokun! magazine, during its operation, formerly ran - don't need both of these qualifiers, either "during its operation" or "formerly", both are redundant. Also, do we need to specify it was conservative?
@ Psiĥedelisto: In general, this work is very well done, and I would be surprised if you can't get this to GA status. -- GRuban ( talk) 02:46, 3 June 2020 (UTC)
Again, awesome work. -- GRuban ( talk) 22:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
inconclusive resultsthen
Nishimura has attempted to repossess the domain both through WIPO's Uniform Domain-Name Dispute-Resolution Policy and through the Japanese court system.already handles it. (3) Seems fixed (4) Tried to fix this too. Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) please always ping! 10:59, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Psiĥedelisto: All looks good, impressive work! We can close this section or let it be archived or something like that. Thank you! -- GRuban ( talk) 19:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@ Psiĥedelisto: Great work so far; I have a few comments myself.
— Goszei ( talk) 19:00, 22 May 2020 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 07:37, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@ Goszei and GRuban: S'il vous plaît, join me on a journey into the weeds...(this is my reply to § Repossession/Domain seizure and split, GRuban).
Or, skip the weeds and go right to § What should Wikipedia do?
I posted on 2channel way before making 8chan or meeting Watkins. I am JLPT N2.
I like comparative law. I especially like researching how colonized countries adopt the legal systems of their colonizers, and turn them on their heads. I am not a lawyer, but I consider myself a (non-traditional, unorthodox) law student. I may indeed take the California Bar via the mentorship route, or I may not, who even knows if the United States will still exist in 2022. Perhaps California will be sovereign once again!
Japan has a three-tier legal system, plus a bunch of quasi-judicial bodies. For our purposes, at least as of when I'm writing this, the only quasi-judicial body that matters is the Japan Patent Office.
The tiers are: district court, high court, supreme court. Very typical layout. For our purposes, all the cases I know of have been filed in Tokyo. So, it goes Tokyo District Court → Tokyo High Court → Supreme Court of Japan.
It is a civil law system, with some Americanism thrown in due to the country's constitution, which has remained virtually unchanged since that war that went rather badly for them. Although, that could change soon.
References
The reason it took me so long to get back to you, GRuban, is because of how impenetrable the system is. I reached out to two subject matter experts, who I will not mention their names, but say, they both write for well-respected Japanese newspapers, and are both native Japanese speakers. Even they find the system impenetrable, but they helped me get this far.
So, who has won what? That's the question I'm trying to answer. I'm going to engage in some WP:OR which is totally not suitable for inclusion in the article and tell you, my interpretation of the cases, just for background, before I go into possible solutions to this conundrum:
References
So, let me stare into the crystal ball and try to figure out what could happen here. Most likely, nothing. Unlikely, if Nishimura gets a finally executory order in Case №1, and Case №3 is truly not an impediment to him and was rejected for some other reason, and despite the move to 5ch.net he wants to keep fighting this battle, he can sue Watkins and N.T. Technology, Inc. in US federal court, and ask the judge to enforce his foreign court order via the Uniform Foreign Money Judgments Recognition Act. Now, question, is the domain a money judgment? Even if not, it still might be possible under the common law, see this treatment of the matter by the International Comparative Legal Guide.
However, exceptions apply, including one to me personally: the SPEECH Act. Any cyberlibel judgment found against me is unenforcable in the United States, where I now live. Does a similar exception exist in this case? We can't say because there's no order yet.
OK. Now that I've bored you with my WP:OR WP:CRYSTAL, here's my suggestion for how to change the article.
@ Goszei and GRuban: Thoughts? Psiĥedelisto ( talk • contribs) please always ping! 04:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
The citation for this statement does not actually explain the website's name in any way, it only discusses 2channel's alleged connection to the 2008 Akihabara massacre. In an archive of a thread where Hiroyuki first advertises 2channel on Amezou, Hiroyuki implies that the name "2channel" was meant to convey how the website was a second channel for Amezou and could house the extra boards that Amezou wouldn't quickly consider for his website.
Takahiro Karasawa does not serve 2channel. He's just a lawyer that 2channel users turned into a meme and there's a long story behind that.
The /poverty/ board was established and announced back in December 28, 2007, not 2012. Hiroyuki had announced this in an /operate/ thread and allowed users to fiddle with its board settings in another thread.
– Nameless( ?) 05:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)
GA toolbox |
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Reviewing |
Reviewer: NamelessRumia ( talk · contribs) 05:16, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
As the author of a website that covers Japanese internet culture such as 2channel, [7], I believe that this article fulfills Wikipedia's Good Article criteria. The article is comprehensive, well-written, and well-sourced.
The result was: promoted by
Vincent60030 (
talk)
18:21, 1 September 2020 (UTC)
[T]here is now a war waging behind the scenes at 2chan as to whom really controls it—Nishimura or the U.S.-based Jim Watkins, who overtook the domain in 2014.; Gabriela Kennedy; et al. (2016-07-28). "WIPO Domain Name Decision: D2016-1025 (2ch.net)". World Intellectual Property Organization. Retrieved 2020-05-17.
The Complainant (Hiroyuki Nishimura)'s submissions can be summarized as follows: [..] The Respondent has no rights or legitimate interests in the Disputed Domain Name. The Complainant has never transferred, licensed or granted any rights to the Respondent to use the Disputed Domain Name.; Nishimura, Hiroyuki (2015-09-22). "Q&A Session with Hiroyuki Nishimura". 4chan. Bibliotheca Anonoma. Retrieved 2020-06-28 – via Desu Archive.
And, they were almost bankrupt. So, Jim stole 2ch.net domain and systems. It is what happened.(most popular online community) Sakamoto, Rumi (2011-03-07). "'Koreans, Go Home!' Internet Nationalism in Contemporary Japan as a Digitally Mediated Subculture". The Asia-Pacific Journal. 9 (10). Retrieved 2020-05-22.
2-channeru, or 2-chan for short, is Japan's most popular online community, with around ten million users accessing it each day.(Watkins owns 8chan) Harwell, Drew; McLaughlin, Timothy (2019-09-12). "From helicopter repairman to leader of the Internet's 'darkest reaches': The life and times of 8chan owner Jim Watkins". Washington Post. Retrieved 2020-05-21.
Improved to Good Article status by Psiĥedelisto ( talk) and GRuban ( talk). Nominated by Psiĥedelisto ( talk) at 06:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC).
I tried to find discussion on this, sorry if I searched stupidly -- is there a reason this very recent GA still has so many citations in the lead? —valereee ( talk) 13:59, 26 August 2020 (UTC)
Alpha Omega 2603:8080:BB00:3B76:995:9FE5:4B81:3A5 ( talk) 07:31, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
<fe.6> 2603:8080:BB00:3B76:995:9FE5:4B81:3A5 ( talk) 07:33, 7 November 2022 (UTC)
let's play Minecraft 50.106.68.237 ( talk) 17:19, 24 May 2023 (UTC)