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2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict → 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War – It is clearly a war at this point. 80.221.244.5 ( talk) 14:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC) Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
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PKK mercenary's involvement should be added to the Units involved section.
Under Casualties, equipment losses and infrastructure damage and Allegations of third-party involvement sections should be updated with the below text PKK terrorists are fighting side by side with the Armenian army to defend their illegal occupation of Upper Karabakh, also known as Nagorno-Karabakh, a captured Armenian soldier confessed on Friday, according to Azerbaijani security sources. Albert Mikaelyan, captured by the Azerbaijani army during operations to liberate its occupied territories, said he is originally from northwestern Armenia's Sirak province but was deployed to Upper Karabakh for his mandatory military service, according to the Azerbaijani sources, who asked not to be named due to restrictions on speaking to the media.
Source 1: https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2020/10/24/captured-armenian-soldier-confesses-deployment-of-pkk-terrorists-to-yerevan-occpied-upper-karabakh Source 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6rjCuhY1BE
Also, the involvement of childer in the war by Armenians should be mentioned.
Source 1: https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/armenia-uses-child-soldiers-in-occupied-nagorno-karabakh-commits-war-crimes-azerbaijan Source 2: https://twitter.com/HikmetHajiyev/status/1320062999453929474 Azehistorian ( talk) 17:36, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
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In the "International reactions" section, Minorities abroad, Azerbaijanis, in the line 7, the word "Iranian Azerbaijanis" is falsely directed to topic "Iranian in United Kingdoms". please correct it. Moz83 ( talk) 20:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC) Moz83 ( talk) 20:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
The word supported does not have the same meaning in this same sentence regarding Armenia and Turkey. Artsakh has handed over all of its foreign affairs issues to Armenia. Artsakh has only foreign relationships to Armenia. Armenia does not just support Artsakh, it is its voice and its will in the negotiations with Azerbaijan. We can say "Turkey supports Azerbaijan", but the relationship of Armenia and Artsakh is much deeper. Eurasianet, The Independent, the book "Genocide and Human Rights" by Mark Lattimer, at least 34 Papers and many other sources label the relationship right away as "Armenian protectorate". The current wording is misleading and does not reflect the actual reality.-- Geysirhead ( talk) 17:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose You want it or not, Artsakh is unrecognised independent country like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria and many others with its own Government, Army and President. Other claims are useless. Armenia presents the rights of Artsakh people, because Azerbaijan refuses to negotiate with the people of Artsakh. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 18:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Geysirhead: could you clarify what changes do you want to make? in your initial comment, you go into a discussion about the depth of the relationship without mentioning where you want to go with this -- Sataralynd ( talk) 20:19, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. I would even say that the article itself should be renamed to Azerbaijan Offensive not because I think so, but because Thomas de Waal and Laurence Broers, the two leading experts on this 30 year old conflict think so. I suggest we rename the article 2020 Azerbaijan offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh-- Sataralynd ( talk) 00:37, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. I second Expertwikiguy's statement. Support is a broad term. Artsakh is a de-facto independent state, but since it is not recognized, it needs to be represented by Armenia. Artsakh did not so much "hand over all of its foreign affairs issues to Armenia" as it does not have a choice to (by its very nature). It is not true that Armenia treats Artsakh like one of its provinces (example: there is a separate visa to travel to Artsakh, last I checked). Armenia does not claim it as part of its integral territory either. Armenia's support is different from Turkey's support, but support is support. — kentronhayastan 01:01, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. To address @ CuriousGolden that Armenia treats Artsakh as its province, it does not. Provinces of Armenia do not have constitutions, do not have parliaments, do not have laws and regulations and government and budget and so on. Province/s (Marz) of Armenia are regulated by various laws, including this[Legal acts, RA President’s decrees № NH-728, On State Government in the Marzes (regions) of the RA (only in Armenian) Enacted: 06.05.1997 True: 20.05.1997]. On the other hand, no regulations exist in Armenian Laws to manage Artsakh in any way. The Republic of Artsakh has its own parliament, its own constitution, its own budget, and so on. @ Solavirum, Foreign countries might avoid entering direct discussion with Artsakh from fear of committing acts that would indirectly recognize it as a country. So the international voice for Artsakh has become Armenia. ---- MarioLemieux999 ( talk) 02:21, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Funny how these kids try to show themselves as an expert and pushing their own views like fact. In international relations since when supplying ammunition or weapons considered as a support? Russian supply to Armenia may be considered as they are part of one alliance group and Armenia gets them free of charge. However, Azerbaijan buys these weapons ! It is like saying Saudi Arabia supports every country that it sells oil to them. Why we are talkin nonsense here? Putin has openly supported Territorial Integrity of Azerbaijan republic even doesn't support Armenia for its illegal actions in Karabakh. Regarding to Syrian fighters, since when wikipedia started to refer some news papers that publishes articles of corrupted authors. I remember many times I tried to write something in wikipedia by referring some newspapers but it got rejected because source considered not be independent as author might be bias. Anyway, if you really tryin to publish an article that reflects all truth, please at least don't refer to FRANCE 24. If you refer to FRANCE 24 as independent source then please also refer to TRT WORLD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
There are various reports of this that Turkey has sent 1,200 special squad force to Azerbaijan. Where is the best place to add this? Source 1 - aysor.com Source 2 - Armenpress.com Expertwikiguy ( talk) 00:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Can someone add that: here. There's a mention about warning that keep away from military installations.-- Ahmetlii ( talk) 07:55, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I ask because this claim has been released regarding the latest ceasefire: https://twitter.com/KarabakhRecords/status/1320579828605722628. I notice that Karabakh Records is referenced once already in the Casualties article. -- LOLCaatz ( talk) 05:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pinging users that seem to be involved in map edits: @ Emreculha, Brandmeister, Solavirum, AntonSamuel, Tigran Ovanyan, LechitaPL, and GrandEscogriffe:
Please move map discussion to a more appropriate space, such as on the file's discussion page. The article's talk page should be used for discussing specific edits on the article, not on changes to files within the article itself. Thank you.-- WMrapids ( talk) 14:45, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
What is your source of map info, how we can trust? Could you add refferences from where you did you get ? 999masks ( talk) 14:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Turkey's involvement in this conflict is well established, including by Azerbaijan itself ( source). I think we need to make the connection between the unrecognized Armenian Genocide by Turkey and the impact of Turkish involvement in this conflict on the Armenian side clear. Therefore, I ask to change the following sentence in the Background section from:
to
Armenian Genocide is an international lie: If there had been a genocide really, European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) would have punished Perincek who said "ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS AN INTERNATIONAL LIE". The decision of ECtHR is not related with "freedom of speech":
One CANNOT say "
The Holocaust is an INTERNATIONAL LIE" in Europe.
The Holocaust HAPPENED. No freedom of speech to declare "
The Holocaust is an INTERNATIONAL LIE".
One CAN say "
Armenian Genocide is an INTERNATIONAL LIE" in Europe. The "
Armenian Genocide" did NOT happened. Again:
Armenian Genocide is an INTERNATIONAL LIE.
European Court of Human Rights; Case of PERİNÇEK v. SWITZERLAND; ApplicationNo 27510/08
Armenian Genocide is an INTERNATIONAL LIE
Fullscaledx (
talk)
12:21, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
There is a lot of emphasis in the article that Armenians lived in the mountainous garabagh in the past. It is extremely incomplete that only the other Azerbaijani regions connecting the corridor were annexed by Armenia. deliberate disinformation is being created.
??-- 45.135.206.220 ( talk) 02:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Dear @ Գարիկ Ավագյան: Artsakh was actually never an independent state. It is dependent on Armenia, although Armenia does not recognize it, Pashinian says that Armenia is a "guarantor" of its security. Can you, please, provide me with any sources about Artsakh's independence? Can you prove me that Artsakh is not in a position of a protectorate? Sincerely, -- Geysirhead ( talk) 19:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
(this "suzerainty" can be economically, militarily, or anything else) Also, when looking to the dictionary, it definitely can be a protectorate as de facto. Denmark is a good example. If you're still having questions, I can answer more and give better examples. Ahmetlii ( talk) 19:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)A protectorate, in its inception adopted by modern international law, is a dependent territory that has been granted local autonomy and some independence while still recognizing the suzerainty of a greater sovereign state.
Dear Geysirhead, Wikipedia is based on facts not personal opinions. See Opinion piece. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 09:55, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Geysirhead, we need third-party reliable sources to label it a protectorate. Wikipedia is not a place for original research. See WP:SYN. Please do not use de facto Armenian protectorate in other articles until a consensus is achieved. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 10:54, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Here is a source that says Pashinyan said "Artsakh is Armenia". @ Golbez: If you're still thinking it's not a protectorate, please look to its definition and get a RFC if you want. Ahmetlii ( talk) 12:31, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Solavirum, this is a war crime that has been covered by the international media, can be placed in the infobox. Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 16:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Rejection: No proof . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 16:35, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
BBC link https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54645254 referred as proof but, it doesn't clearly states anything about this being war crime. It also refers to https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2020/10/15/an-execution-in-hadrut-karabakh/ which analyses the video. However, this side also doesn't clearly says that it was done by Azerbaijan army, it says " possibly special forces, and likely executed a short time later". So this can't be used as evidence because there are too many unanswered questions and too many statements such as "possibly" or "likely". 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 16:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
You guys are really going to say there is no proof? Are you serious man this is real. 2 civilians and one above 70 were executed. This is 100% real. I don’t get it you need Azerbaijan to confirm it? They’ll never do it. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 09:04, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
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The article is biased for the sake of fairness please include Ganja city, Tartar city, Mingachevir city ballistic missile and artillery attacks. 94.200.24.122 ( talk) 08:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Solavirum, how am i image spamming? The images of the Armenian protests i've added to the section were from two different locations; one in Los Angeles, one in Barcelona and the main reason for adding it was because the rallies Armenian communites held globally have been topic of international media untill this day and objectively have been more influential than Azerbaijani diaspora's protests. You've added two images from the same Azerbaijani protest in Turkey a week ago but suddenly it is "image spamming" that another one is being added to the Armenian section. Eurofan88 ( talk) 12:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Solavirum, you remove photos from the article, calling them "redundant", and compare these users who uploaded the pics as "from kindergarten". But at the same time, within 12 hours you have added 3 photos of Aliyev, [5], [6], [7] making this page to look like Ilham Aliyev's personal page. You always remind people to be polite and "good faith". However, you need to remind it yourself, too. You remove information without discussion and refuse to discuss it in talk pages, instead you revert the edits and explain your personal position in the summary, thinking that your position is the objective one. This is not a "kindergarten". Please be polite to other users and keep Wikipedia's voice neutral. If you can't control your biased or Azerbaijani side, so please take a break from editing until you become neutral again. We will be waiting. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 18:48, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I found it a bit strange why War Crime section doesn't talk about Ganja attach? Isn't that war crime? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Links :
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/17/13-killed-in-gan https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54488386 https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20201017-missiles-strike-residential-areas-in-azerbaijan-after-shelling-of-armenia-separatist-capital
Isn't this enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) Unfortunately Wikipedia is for those who shouting more and loud. It is clear that the missle hit Ganja was war crime. We need add this part. Could you please help me to prepare the content? 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 16:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Ahmetlii ( talk Yes please do it and thank you very much!
Solavirum is there any article or analysys f this video?
With all due respect sir you can not prove that Armenians did anything to Azerbaijani POWs or wore Azerbaijani uniforms. A third party would be something like the BBC not Heydar’s little son MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 09:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
@Ahmetlii I’m completely with you but Britain tends to be more pro-Azerbaijan and the fact that BBC posted the article it kind of changes things. Of course again the resources are limited so I don’t know... MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 16:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
MakeWikiReliable ( talk) please try engage into health discussion and not judge users. Moreover, according WP:MBFC BBC is a reliable source to refer. 149.126.119.233 ( talk) 18:32, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
At no point in the discussion did I ever try to judge a user. Judging a dictator yes, the user no. Please read carefully before accusing me of judging users. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 18:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Sepah's commander Mohammad Pakpour, visited the Khodaafarin Bridges and added: "The liberation of the occupied territories of Nagorno-Karabakh has been our demand from the beginning and we are happy that this has happened." [3] Do you think we could add these anywhere, or it is important? Beshogur ( talk) 10:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Beshogur ( talk) and Mr.User200 ( talk) thanks for contribution to Wikipedia. Please make sure that the content properly written and approved by all parties (wikipedia community). The topic you are referring is very sensitive and we don't want to end up with the information that states Iran support to Armenia or Azerbaijan. Iran's current deployment to Northern provinces is port relieving pressure in the provinces that Azerbaijanians live and there were multiple cases where Armenians shelled nearby Iranian towns. Hence, please make sure you provide clear picture of the event instead creating controversy. Mirhasanov ( talk) 05:25, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
References
According to Armenian sources Sputnik Armenia Jalal Harutyunyan is wounded(most likely heavily or KIA since he is replaced and has been removed from his position) 80.76.168.114 ( talk) 05:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Okay calm down no one said its Armenipedia. The Armenian side doesn’t even say he is heavily injured, they say it’s very light and he will recover soon. And to respect Azerbaijani side means to respect a fascist regime quite honestly. But that’s not the point. There is 0 evidence to back up the fact that he is dead. Very lightly injured. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 09:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes Azerbaijan is the fascist side and don’t forget how the war started because of Azerbaijan’s pogroms against Armenians. No one calls the death of 160 civilians a genocide. That’s absurd. Plus your first president admits that Azerbaijanis did Khojaly as Coupe d’etat. Jalal Hovhannisyan came up with a statement today and commented all the news articles talking about his death. Another Azerbaijani lie dismissed. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 16:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
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On October 19, Armenia's human rights defender reported about another war crime committed by the Azerbaijani side where they have beheaded an Armenian soldier, posted the picture on social media and called his brother to taunt him.[216][217][unreliable source?]
This sentence must be deleted as reference is not reliable and information is part of propaganda war. 149.126.119.233 ( talk) 18:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Asartea Trick | Treat this is what is reported. Information is already published in article without proper source or reference. Could you please check and delete it? Mirhasanov ( talk) 10:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
"Russia set to continue arms supplies to Azerbaijan and Armenia — official" source: https://tass.com/defense/868312 https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/10/15/will-russian-arms-sales-survive-the-azeri-armenian-conflict/
It should be mentioned in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.120.129.22 ( talk) 11:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Johncdraper:, UN is calling these areas occupied territories. This is not NPOV, just fancy words in my opinions. Beshogur ( talk) 12:00, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I've noticed a split banner at the top of the page but no split discussions. I would propose the following:
Juxlos ( talk) 11:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
On the timeline maybe we could cut a lot of it by instead of doing it daily we could do it weekly or by major events? Flalf Talk 13:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
In the intro under section Allegations of third-party involvement could we be more explicit about evidence on the involvement of Syrian mercenaries in Azerbaijan and the numbers. Here are three different sources providing evidence:
France24,
The Independent, and
Guardian. SOHR
reports the latest number to be at 2000 mercenaries as of 18 October. Note that we have a section about Kurdish fighters on the Armenian side, but up until now, I am yet to find any evidence to be presented. It would be reasonable to delete that section, but will leave that for another day
The current intro talks about context, allegations, etc. which don't provide a clear picture to the average reader. Mentioning the number is important here as well (not only in the side box) as it gives an understanding of scale of involvement. I suggest the intro to be entirely rewritten as follows:
Independent media outlets reported evidence of Syrian Mercenaries recruited in Syria by Turkey to fight alongside the Azerbaijan army in Nagorno Karabakh. As of 18 October,
Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) reported that 2000 mercenaries were recruited in Syria by Turkey and transferred to fight in Nagorno Karabakh.
--
Sataralynd (
talk)
01:42, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
France24, The Independent, and The Guardian reported evidence of Syrian mercenaries recruited in Syria by Turkey to fight alongside the Azerbaijan army in Nagorno Karabakh. As of 18 October, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) reported that 2000 mercenaries were recruited in Syria by Turkey and transferred to fight in Nagorno Karabakh @ Armatura: could I ask you to make the edit? Thank you all,-- Sataralynd ( talk) 13:40, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I personally think if we refer news links as a source then please write about PKK mercenaries in Armenia. https://www.eupoliticalreport.eu/pkks-involvement-in-the-armenia-azerbaijan-conflict-would-jeopardise-european-security/ https://www.aa.com.tr/en/azerbaijan-front-line/armenia-making-pkk-terrorists-wear-azerbaijani-uniforms/2018969.
Regarding articles in The Guardian or Independent they can't be considered as reference. If you would read the article the author talks about some unknown phone conversation they had, where person on other side claims to be recruited. Any one can make this kind of cheap war propaganda. Hence, the fact that Syrian mercenaries fight in Azerbaijani side is not proved. Even Russia andFrance first claimed it but was not able to provide prove. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd (
talk) Let me explain then:
Let's first start with The Guardian, you are the most probably referring to this link. ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/02/syrian-recruit-describes-role-of-foreign-fighters-in-nagorno-karabakh) .
The article refers to "Mustafa Khalid" which is fake name of the guy who was interviewed via phone. You can call the Guardian act like Syrian and tell them whatever you want. This doesn't makes things obvious. In article he states that "Syrians posted to Nagorno-Karabakh appear be wearing the blue uniforms that are standard issue to Azerbaijani border guards". In Azerbaijan Army there is no "blue uniforms", Azerbaijan Border Guard wears "green" uniforms and you just need to google it to find the colour. So far we saw pictures where some Armenian soldiers wears Azerbaijan board duart uniform. Considering that the article is based on some phone conversation which can be easily mimicked, this sources can't be reliable source and reference for Wikipedia.!
Secondly, The Independent you are probably referring to this link ( https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/armenia-azerbaijan-syria-war-fighting-mercenary-russia-b912446.html). It again refers some informations send by mobile phone and not verified and Whatsapp voice. Do you think that people who are ready to fight for 1200$ in Azerbaijan will reject some 2000$ offered them to tell lies to journalists? Anyway, the article also mentions Armenia recruiting people from Lebanon and Syria. In fact it happened in 1990s and it is happening now. Armenia even doesn't deny it. So if we refer to The Independent then we should mention Lebanese fighting for Armenia.
Thirdly, France24, It is not independent cannel and proven propaganda machine of France. Even some analysis conducted in this cannel done by armenian people. Hence, referring to this channel as explaining your point is unacceptable as per Wikipedia rules. 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 17:22, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd ( talk) According to WP:MBFC citing to France24 is not acceptable as it is not in the list of reliable sources. However, The Guardian and The Independent is on the list that can be trusted, but the statement in WP:MBFC says that source can be cited if the text or information covers non-specialist information. Considering that the information requires specific specialization on this type of investigations, The Independent can't not be cited.
The Guardian according to WP:MBFC can be cited but op-ends should be handled with WP:RSOPINION. The link you are referring is an opinoon and doesn't supported by board director of the The Guardian. The evidences are totally based on single person and her phone conversation with other unknown side. Hence, I believe we need to revisit this information below:
Prior to the resumption of hostilities, allegations emerged that hundreds of Syrian National Army members from the Hamza Division were transferred to Azerbaijan. - Reference is not consistent with WP:MBFC, hence can't be published as reliable information.
This was the first military casualty officially confirmed by the government. However, Armenian and Artsakh authorities have claimed 6,309 Azerbaijani soldiers and Syrian mercenaries were killed - Refers to armenian news agency hence, information shouldn't published because of its unreliability. Mirhasanov ( talk) 18:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd ( talk) Considering that France 24 is not in the list. this automatically makes it unreliable. Please carefully read what I wrote, I also explained why article in The Guardian is an opinion. If you will refer the right hand side of the article, you will see name of one journalist. Usually, when the article approved by board members all of their names appears on the list. The article is written on a context of Turkey strengthening its muscles and also does not include any proper investigation details referring only anonime conversations on the phone. Hence, it can't not be served as a fact. Hence, instead the article talking about Syrian Mercenaries fight for Azerbaijan it should underpin that those are claims that was raised by Macron and Security Chief of Russia, however despite the Azerbaijani side asking to provide an official report non of the side provided them yet. Mirhasanov ( talk) 05:04, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
About The Independent, again from WP:RS/P:There is consensus that The Guardian is generally reliable. The Guardian's op-eds should be handled with WP:RSOPINION. Some editors believe The Guardian is biased or opinionated for politics. See also: The Guardian blogs.
About SOHR, we have discussed before I guess, but for finding more resources about it; here and here. Also, there might be a possibility of WP:REFLOOP, although that might be between newspapers, without Wikipedia included. (To my opinion part) Because they include editorial stuffs as far as I see -if not, please correct me- and there's some doubts and there's missing points about the reliability, I don't think that it's safely usable for article, especially in a major article like this. I'd like to ping @ Rosguill:, who did statements on DRN and talked about Syrian mercenaries issue before. Ahmetlii ( talk) 13:49, 28 October 2020 (UTC)The Independent, a British newspaper, is considered a reliable source for non-specialist information. In March 2016, the publication discontinued its print edition to become an online newspaper; some editors advise caution for articles published after this date.
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https://m.facebook.com/herbimedia/
204.197.181.160 ( talk) 00:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
A celebrity section was added and removed by someone without checking that there was already prior discussion about it. Tallying up prior votes, there were 3 votes to KEEP, 3 to DELETE and one additional person is OK to KEEP as long as it is proportional to superregional organizations. Could we get new voting going from anyone that didn't place their input before. If you had input before, you can post a statement, but make sure to state that you also voted before. At the end we can tally up vote in support or opposition. To summarize the section had discussed several celebrities that has posted social media statements opposing the war, some in support of Armenians and some in Support of Azeris, it Included Kardashians, Kanye West, Cardi B. Elton John, Mesut Ozil and others. Please post SUPPORT or OPPOSE. Expertwikiguy ( talk) 00:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
No. This article is already very long, we don't need such additional trivia here. If someone decides to create a separate International reactions to the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict then sure, it could go there, but the main conflict article is not the place for this.-- Staberinde ( talk) 14:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Support to add a section, which includes supporters of both sides, with sources.-- Sataralynd ( talk) 19:21, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Support to add a section, which includes supporters of both sides, with sources, as per Sataralynd Armatura ( talk) 12:46, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. Article is too long already, there's no need to make it longer by adding a section about what online influencers think about a conflict. I agree with Staberinde above. If there's going to be International reactions to the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, you can add it there. — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 12:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose Adding celebrity endorsements is just trivializing a serious ongoing conflict. Unlike reactions from international bodies which may have real impact on the conflict and its resolution, celebrity statements are basically meaningless. Schazjmd (talk) 00:54, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This Daily Beast article is giving Armenian casualties at around 1,000 soldiers dead, and 300-400 civilians killed (which happens to be much higher than what has been reported, and quite frankly, is horrible. Probably in line with Putin's estimate however). Here is the text from the article:
"One doctor in the bunker, who did not want to give his name due to restrictions on speaking to the media, told The Daily Beast that around 1,000 soldiers and 300 to 400 civilians had been declared dead at three hospitals in Artsakh, to his knowledge. These numbers point to far more casualties than the 900 officially reported by the Ministry of Defense in Artsakh, especially as some soldiers’ bodies are never retrieved from the front line."
I recommend putting this in the infobox and the casualties section (the standalone article included) of this article. How exactly you guys put this is up to you, especially since it differs a lot from the reported numbers. 2601:85:C101:BA30:FDBB:852E:A1F:5DB3 ( talk) 20:42, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to prefer to use it with another citation rather than just using it for not taking risk about whether it's a false news or not. -- Ahmetlii ( talk) 15:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)The Daily Beast is considered generally reliable for news. Most editors consider The Daily Beast a biased or opinionated source. Some editors advise caution when using this source for controversial statements of fact related to living persons.
Well, the bias refers to mostly domestic concerns in the US, as the Daily Beast slant is liberal, so I don't think it is referring to any partiality in this conflict per se (and there are no controversial statements made about living persons in the source) I doubt the doctor is spreading fake news, however, but I cannot be the judge of that. Anyhow, I agree with you, it would be much better if we can find another source that references this number, as it would be more reliable then. But I'm sure we can find a place for this still in the article, if not in the infobox then perhaps buried somewhere in the casualties section. 2601:85:C101:BA30:FDBB:852E:A1F:5DB3 ( talk) 16:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Any opinions on this? It's the " " absence for me haha. Eurofan88 ( talk) 20:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Genocide Watch has described the situation as a 'genocide emergency' for Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh, citing Azerbaijan’s current targeting of civilians in Nagorno-Karabakh, denial of past genocide against Armenians, and its official use of hate speech as factors leading to their assessment [1] [2] [3] International Association of Genocide Scholars issued an open letter, considering the air raids conducted by the Azerbaijani military on Shushi Holy Savior Cathedral as a part of policy of the cultural genocide, blaming Azerbaijani government in systematic destruction of the Armenian historical heritage” [4].
Must be removed as the content is still subject of discussion and was added without consensus of all parties [5]. Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The use of cluster munition by Azerbaijan against civilian areas of Nagorno Karabakh and in the capital Stepanakert has been well established by independent third party sources (see
here and
here). And yet, when checking whether the article adequately reflects the evidence, I actually found the opposite: in the Official Statements section, under Azerbaijan, the fifth paragraph starts with: Two days later, Azerbaijan stated that Armenia had deployed cluster munitions against cities.. Looking at the
source, there is actually only a claim made by Hikmat Hajiyev,
Ilham Aliyev's aide. This is a very serious accusation and we need more than an Azerbaijani source affiliated with the government to claim it. We actually need third party evidence similar to that of the above sources confirming Azerbaijan's use of cluster munitions. Therefore:
1) could we remove the above sentence from the article?
On the other hand, going back to my original point, the article needs to reflect the evidence that banned cluster munitions have been used by Azerbaijan against civilian areas in Nagorno Karabakh. Therefore:
2) in Official Statements section, under Armenia please modify the third paragraph sentence about cluster munitions to read: International third parties confirmed witnessing evidence of the use of banned cluster munition by Azerbaijan against civilian areas of Nagorno-Karabakh (see here and here)-- Sataralynd ( talk) 23:27, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
193.196.11.188 ( talk) 10:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Solavirum: if you have an issue with the cluster bomb video, please refer to Wikimedia Commons because the issue you're raising is a licensing issue, not an issue pertaining to content. The video is relevant to the text. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 07:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi,
Under Territorial Changes (in the infobox) an Azeri claim - supported by an Azeri media source - is represented. Armenia has also released a map of the battlefield as of today, although as far as I know it can only be found on a YouTube video on an official Armenian government channel. I think both perspectives should be represented in this section-- LOLCaatz ( talk) 01:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
LOLCaatz ( talk) The map is an issue because neither Azeris nor Armenians agree with current map. Hence, this shouldn't be a big issue for now as it can be changed. Wikipedia article for 2020 War needs to be an informative not to serve propaganda machine of the war. Mirhasanov ( talk) 09:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
LOLCaatz ( talk) your point is right but if we will put claims of the both country then it will be a sentence not a note. More details are mentioned in the article. As I mentioned war is on going and this article will change. Mirhasanov ( talk) 16:23, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Mirhasanov: I agree with this. The only thing is that the Armenian claim is an image which is difficult to represent in a note without breaking WP:SYN. It's pretty clear that Azerbaijan has taken a significant amount of territory in the south, both Azeri and Armenian state sources confirm this so this is of no doubt. Azeri sources have stated an exact amount of villages/settlements which is much easier to represent in a sentence. -- LOLCaatz ( talk) 23:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
:Agreed: LOLCaatz ( talk) Thanks for your constructive approach. Mirhasanov ( talk) 04:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Hey! I'm not sure why but every time I check this article there are just isolated refnames everywhere, when editing please try to avoid this. Thanks! Flalf Talk 12:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Armenia claims that Syrian fighters fought on the Azerbaijani side. And this confirms in Wikipedia. Azerbaijan confirms that there are PKK members on the Armenian side, but wikipedia does not write it. You are biased. He confirms that the interrogated Armenian soldiers captured are members of the PKK. Fix this!-- 45.135.206.211 ( talk) 16:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/armenia-using-pkk-on-front-lines-azerbaijan-says https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/war-on-terror/armenia-transfers-ypgpkk-terrorists-to-occupied-area-to-train-militias-against-azerbaijan https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/armenia-using-pkk-on-front-lines-azerbaijan/2014567
The Azerbaijani government is saying the claim, so I have to report on the BBC and The Guardian? The BBC and The Guardian investigative commission or news agency? How correct is it that you accept these resources as 100% neutral-- 45.135.206.211 ( talk) 16:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Here are sources that says PKK fight for Armenia: EU Political Report is an independent Brussels based news portal delivering authoritative comment on the latest economic and political developments in Europe for key EU decision makers and opinion formers.
is a Brussels based European multimedia news platform, providing online news and video comment on EU and world affairs in all EU official languages. https://www.eureporter.co/frontpage/2020/09/23/pkks-involvement-in-the-armenia-azerbaijan-conflict-would-jeopardize-european-security/
The Jamestown Foundation is an independent, nonpartisan organization supported by tax-deductible contributions from corporations, foundations and individuals. https://jamestown.org/program/reviving-a-forgotten-threat-the-pkk-in-nagorno-karabakh/
I think this should be enough independent sources. I can enlist dosens. 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 17:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd ( talk Please stop acting like administrator of the page. This is discussion page and no one looking for your permission or serious manner to start the conversation. Hence, instead of attacking users make sure that you clearly reflect your view. Provided first two articles is enough to start the discussion, I am not favour on third one as it written by Azeri author. Moreover, Wikipedia doesn't refer to newspapers to prove the content. You all the time refer to France24, which deemed to be bias. If we refer to France24 then we should refer to AlJazeera and TRT World. The "facts" you are referring about Syrian fighters is claim [ [8]] not proved yet, similar to PKK fighters in Karabakh is also claim. So, if we are referring to claims not to facts to build up the article then both sides must be reflected. Mirhasanov ( talk) 08:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Mr. @
Sataralynd:
Sataralynd, could you show us the Syrian fighters in the Azerbaijani army by presenting the geographically located video evidence you mentioned? --
45.135.206.249 (
talk)
23:57, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Check
these
four
sources--
Sataralynd (
talk)
13:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This Daily Beast article is giving Armenian casualties at around 1,000 soldiers dead, and 300-400 civilians killed as of October 26 (which happens to be much higher than what has been reported, but probably in line with Putin's estimate however). I am requesting the addition of the civilian number, not the military. Here is the text from the article:
"One doctor in the bunker, who did not want to give his name due to restrictions on speaking to the media, told The Daily Beast that around 1,000 soldiers and 300 to 400 civilians had been declared dead at three hospitals in Artsakh, to his knowledge. These numbers point to far more casualties than the 900 officially reported by the Ministry of Defense in Artsakh, especially as some soldiers’ bodies are never retrieved from the front line."
I recommend putting this in the infobox and/or the casualties section of this article. How exactly you guys put this is up to you, I'm sure you'll argue over the specifics, especially since it differs a lot from the reported numbers, but it is an RS and worthy of mention.
I am making this specific edit request because my earlier "Armenian casualties" talk section went stale. The Daily Beast is an RS in relation to this regional conflict. To use my own text in the previous section: "Well, the bias refers to mostly domestic concerns in the US, as the Daily Beast slant is liberal, so I don't think it is referring to any partiality in this conflict per se (and there are no controversial statements made about living persons in the source)".
If put in the infobox, I suggest adding: per Daily Beast as of October 26. If put in the casualties section, add the same thing. Once again, this request is for the addition of the 300-400 civilian dead number, not the military number. And again, this can be put in either the infobox or the casualties section. 2601:85:C101:BA30:ACF6:B4EC:DBBA:BFEC ( talk) 02:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC) 2601:85:C101:BA30:ACF6:B4EC:DBBA:BFEC ( talk) 02:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@ WMrapids:, please say me what clutter do you see on the infobox about the settlements? These are important places, and has to be showed. Plus "the border between the disputed area with Iran" is not a "neutral wording", this area is not disputed, nor the border. Beshogur ( talk) 19:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
LOLCaatz ( talk) there is no side called Artsakh. The conflict is between Armenia and Azerbaijan. De facto Artsakh is proxy regime managed by Armenia. Mirhasanov ( talk) 10:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
822 - Calls for the cessation of hostilities and the withdrawal of all occupying forces from the Kelbajar district and other recently occupied areas of the Republic of Azerbaijan. [6]
853- Demands the immediate cessation of all hostilities; Calls on the withdrawal of the occupying forces from the district of Agdam and other recently occupied areas of the Republic of Azerbaijan and reaffirms UN Resolution 822. Endorses the continuing efforts by the Minsk Group of the CSCE to achieve a peaceful resolution to the conflict. [7]
874 - Calls upon the parties concerned to make effective and permanent the ceasefire established as a result of the direct contacts undertaken with the assistance of the Government of the Russian Federation in support of the CSCE Minsk Group; welcomes and commends to the parties the "Adjusted timetable of urgent steps to implement Security Council resolutions 822 (1993) and 853 (1993)" set out on 28 Sept. 1993 at the meeting of the CSCE Minsk Group and calls on the parties to accept it; calls for the immediate implementation of the reciprocal and urgent steps provided for in the CSCE Minsk Group's "Adjusted timetable", including the withdrawal of forces from recently occupied territories and the removal of all obstacles to communications and transportation; calls also for an early convening of the CSCE Minsk Conference for the purpose of arriving at a negotiated settlement to the conflict; requests the Secretary-General to send a representative to attend the CSCE Minsk Conference and to provide assistance for the substantive negotiations that will follow the opening of the Conference; calls on all parties to refrain from violations of international humanitarian law and renews its call in resolutions 822 (1993) and 853 (1993) for unimpeded access for international humanitarian relief efforts in all areas affected by the conflict; requests the Secretary-General and relevant international agencies to provide urgent humanitarian assistance to the affected civilian population and to assist refugees and displaced persons to return to their homes in security and dignity. [8]
884- Condemns the recent violations of the ceasefire established between the parties; calls upon the Government of Armenia to use its influence to achieve compliance by the Armenians of the Nagorny Karabakh region of the Azerbaijani Republic with resolutions 822 (1993), 853 (1993) and 874 (1993), and to ensure that the forces involved are not provided with the means to extend their military campaign further; demands from the parties concerned the immediate cessation of armed hostilities, the unilateral withdrawal of occupying forces from the Zangelan district and the city of Goradiz, and the withdrawal of occupying forces from other recently occupied areas of the Azerbaijani Republic in accordance with the "Adjusted timetable of urgent steps to implement Security Council resolutions 822 (1993) and 853 (1993)" (S/26522, appendix) as amended by the CSCE Minsk Group meeting in Vienna of 2 to 8 Nov. 1993; strongly urges the parties concerned to resume promptly and to make effective and permanent the ceasefire established as a result of the direct contacts undertaken with the assistance of the Government of the Russian Federation in support of the CSCE Minsk Group; urges again all States in the region to refrain from any hostile acts and from any interference or intervention, which would lead to the widening of the conflict and undermine peace and security in the region; requests the Secretary-General and relevant international agencies to provide urgent humanitarian assistance to the affected civilian population. [9] Mirhasanov ( talk) 04:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Mirhasanov: Don't insult my knowledge on the conflict. I am aware of the UN resolutions however please view /info/en/?search=Crimea which is also listed on the page as "disputed" and is in a similar situation, where the territory is internationally recognized as part of Ukraine but is controlled and "annexed" by Russia. The historical basis of the conflict is extremely complex but since both sides have legitimate historical reasons to claim that territory, what is relevant in the present day is that whoever manages to control it or maintain control of it will probably be able to keep it.-- LOLCaatz ( talk) 09:35, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Please do not not place the Azerbaijan-Iran border link in the infobox until there is a consensus. The whole point of this article is about the dispute of this area. Describing it to readers as explicitly Armenia's, Azerbaijan's or whoever's border with Iran is not NPOV.-- WMrapids ( talk) 11:06, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The UN doesn't recognize Taiwan, really? Dispute happens between two countries, not a self declared states. See UN res 62/243:
1. Reaffirms continued respect and support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Azerbaijan within its internationally recognized borders; 2. Demands the immediate, complete and unconditional withdrawal of all Armenian forces from all the occupied territories of the Republic of Azerbaijan.[10] Beshogur ( talk) 11:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
the disputed area's border with Iranis adequate for that part, although I stand by my perspective regarding the former. signed, Rosguill talk 15:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
References
Isn't Serbia an army suplier for both sides? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.221.156.45 ( talk) 20:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Serbia is arm support for Armenia, president of Serbia, Aleksandar Vučić said that Serbia will have greater relations with Armenia in future. Лука Раичевић ( talk) 16:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Armenians intentionally began to keep pigs in the Agdam mosque, turning religious monuments into an object for insults. The current situation of the Juma mosque confirms the violation by the Armenians of the 1954 Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict [1].
Hey Expertwikiguy! Thank you for your edit here. But I've got some doubts that it is included in the correct section. Cyber warfare would include hacking and cyber attacks on a gov's behalf. Not some social media users sending emails in protest. This section seems more fitting for it though. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 19:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Just a procedural note: as long as neutrality tag is at the article's top and the article is on the front page, please link to a specific talk thread for accessibility so we can resolve the dispute ASAP and get rid of it. Brandmeister talk 22:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1033218/
Official confession: existing map should be updated Republic of Artsakh President Arayik Harutyunyan: Shushi, today our victory is conditioned by the protection of Shushi. The enemy is just a few kilometers from here, maximum 5 kilometers. -- 45.135.206.249 ( talk) 22:26, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
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2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Add 'Pakistan' and 'Syrian Militants' under supporters of Azerbaijan. Hambvart ( talk) 13:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Here are the media reports about Syrian Fighters [2] [3] [4] [5]
Here are the media's report about Pakistan's Army
[6]
[7]
{{
edit extended-protected}}
template.
Eggishorn
(talk)
(contrib)
23:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)References
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict → 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh War – It is clearly a war at this point. 80.221.244.5 ( talk) 14:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC) Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 15:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
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PKK mercenary's involvement should be added to the Units involved section.
Under Casualties, equipment losses and infrastructure damage and Allegations of third-party involvement sections should be updated with the below text PKK terrorists are fighting side by side with the Armenian army to defend their illegal occupation of Upper Karabakh, also known as Nagorno-Karabakh, a captured Armenian soldier confessed on Friday, according to Azerbaijani security sources. Albert Mikaelyan, captured by the Azerbaijani army during operations to liberate its occupied territories, said he is originally from northwestern Armenia's Sirak province but was deployed to Upper Karabakh for his mandatory military service, according to the Azerbaijani sources, who asked not to be named due to restrictions on speaking to the media.
Source 1: https://www.anews.com.tr/world/2020/10/24/captured-armenian-soldier-confesses-deployment-of-pkk-terrorists-to-yerevan-occpied-upper-karabakh Source 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t6rjCuhY1BE
Also, the involvement of childer in the war by Armenians should be mentioned.
Source 1: https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/armenia-uses-child-soldiers-in-occupied-nagorno-karabakh-commits-war-crimes-azerbaijan Source 2: https://twitter.com/HikmetHajiyev/status/1320062999453929474 Azehistorian ( talk) 17:36, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
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In the "International reactions" section, Minorities abroad, Azerbaijanis, in the line 7, the word "Iranian Azerbaijanis" is falsely directed to topic "Iranian in United Kingdoms". please correct it. Moz83 ( talk) 20:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC) Moz83 ( talk) 20:43, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
The word supported does not have the same meaning in this same sentence regarding Armenia and Turkey. Artsakh has handed over all of its foreign affairs issues to Armenia. Artsakh has only foreign relationships to Armenia. Armenia does not just support Artsakh, it is its voice and its will in the negotiations with Azerbaijan. We can say "Turkey supports Azerbaijan", but the relationship of Armenia and Artsakh is much deeper. Eurasianet, The Independent, the book "Genocide and Human Rights" by Mark Lattimer, at least 34 Papers and many other sources label the relationship right away as "Armenian protectorate". The current wording is misleading and does not reflect the actual reality.-- Geysirhead ( talk) 17:01, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose You want it or not, Artsakh is unrecognised independent country like Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Transnistria and many others with its own Government, Army and President. Other claims are useless. Armenia presents the rights of Artsakh people, because Azerbaijan refuses to negotiate with the people of Artsakh. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 18:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Geysirhead: could you clarify what changes do you want to make? in your initial comment, you go into a discussion about the depth of the relationship without mentioning where you want to go with this -- Sataralynd ( talk) 20:19, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. I would even say that the article itself should be renamed to Azerbaijan Offensive not because I think so, but because Thomas de Waal and Laurence Broers, the two leading experts on this 30 year old conflict think so. I suggest we rename the article 2020 Azerbaijan offensive in Nagorno-Karabakh-- Sataralynd ( talk) 00:37, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. I second Expertwikiguy's statement. Support is a broad term. Artsakh is a de-facto independent state, but since it is not recognized, it needs to be represented by Armenia. Artsakh did not so much "hand over all of its foreign affairs issues to Armenia" as it does not have a choice to (by its very nature). It is not true that Armenia treats Artsakh like one of its provinces (example: there is a separate visa to travel to Artsakh, last I checked). Armenia does not claim it as part of its integral territory either. Armenia's support is different from Turkey's support, but support is support. — kentronhayastan 01:01, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. To address @ CuriousGolden that Armenia treats Artsakh as its province, it does not. Provinces of Armenia do not have constitutions, do not have parliaments, do not have laws and regulations and government and budget and so on. Province/s (Marz) of Armenia are regulated by various laws, including this[Legal acts, RA President’s decrees № NH-728, On State Government in the Marzes (regions) of the RA (only in Armenian) Enacted: 06.05.1997 True: 20.05.1997]. On the other hand, no regulations exist in Armenian Laws to manage Artsakh in any way. The Republic of Artsakh has its own parliament, its own constitution, its own budget, and so on. @ Solavirum, Foreign countries might avoid entering direct discussion with Artsakh from fear of committing acts that would indirectly recognize it as a country. So the international voice for Artsakh has become Armenia. ---- MarioLemieux999 ( talk) 02:21, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Funny how these kids try to show themselves as an expert and pushing their own views like fact. In international relations since when supplying ammunition or weapons considered as a support? Russian supply to Armenia may be considered as they are part of one alliance group and Armenia gets them free of charge. However, Azerbaijan buys these weapons ! It is like saying Saudi Arabia supports every country that it sells oil to them. Why we are talkin nonsense here? Putin has openly supported Territorial Integrity of Azerbaijan republic even doesn't support Armenia for its illegal actions in Karabakh. Regarding to Syrian fighters, since when wikipedia started to refer some news papers that publishes articles of corrupted authors. I remember many times I tried to write something in wikipedia by referring some newspapers but it got rejected because source considered not be independent as author might be bias. Anyway, if you really tryin to publish an article that reflects all truth, please at least don't refer to FRANCE 24. If you refer to FRANCE 24 as independent source then please also refer to TRT WORLD. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:26, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
There are various reports of this that Turkey has sent 1,200 special squad force to Azerbaijan. Where is the best place to add this? Source 1 - aysor.com Source 2 - Armenpress.com Expertwikiguy ( talk) 00:27, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Can someone add that: here. There's a mention about warning that keep away from military installations.-- Ahmetlii ( talk) 07:55, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I ask because this claim has been released regarding the latest ceasefire: https://twitter.com/KarabakhRecords/status/1320579828605722628. I notice that Karabakh Records is referenced once already in the Casualties article. -- LOLCaatz ( talk) 05:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Pinging users that seem to be involved in map edits: @ Emreculha, Brandmeister, Solavirum, AntonSamuel, Tigran Ovanyan, LechitaPL, and GrandEscogriffe:
Please move map discussion to a more appropriate space, such as on the file's discussion page. The article's talk page should be used for discussing specific edits on the article, not on changes to files within the article itself. Thank you.-- WMrapids ( talk) 14:45, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
What is your source of map info, how we can trust? Could you add refferences from where you did you get ? 999masks ( talk) 14:33, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Turkey's involvement in this conflict is well established, including by Azerbaijan itself ( source). I think we need to make the connection between the unrecognized Armenian Genocide by Turkey and the impact of Turkish involvement in this conflict on the Armenian side clear. Therefore, I ask to change the following sentence in the Background section from:
to
Armenian Genocide is an international lie: If there had been a genocide really, European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) would have punished Perincek who said "ARMENIAN GENOCIDE IS AN INTERNATIONAL LIE". The decision of ECtHR is not related with "freedom of speech":
One CANNOT say "
The Holocaust is an INTERNATIONAL LIE" in Europe.
The Holocaust HAPPENED. No freedom of speech to declare "
The Holocaust is an INTERNATIONAL LIE".
One CAN say "
Armenian Genocide is an INTERNATIONAL LIE" in Europe. The "
Armenian Genocide" did NOT happened. Again:
Armenian Genocide is an INTERNATIONAL LIE.
European Court of Human Rights; Case of PERİNÇEK v. SWITZERLAND; ApplicationNo 27510/08
Armenian Genocide is an INTERNATIONAL LIE
Fullscaledx (
talk)
12:21, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
There is a lot of emphasis in the article that Armenians lived in the mountainous garabagh in the past. It is extremely incomplete that only the other Azerbaijani regions connecting the corridor were annexed by Armenia. deliberate disinformation is being created.
??-- 45.135.206.220 ( talk) 02:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Dear @ Գարիկ Ավագյան: Artsakh was actually never an independent state. It is dependent on Armenia, although Armenia does not recognize it, Pashinian says that Armenia is a "guarantor" of its security. Can you, please, provide me with any sources about Artsakh's independence? Can you prove me that Artsakh is not in a position of a protectorate? Sincerely, -- Geysirhead ( talk) 19:16, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
(this "suzerainty" can be economically, militarily, or anything else) Also, when looking to the dictionary, it definitely can be a protectorate as de facto. Denmark is a good example. If you're still having questions, I can answer more and give better examples. Ahmetlii ( talk) 19:52, 23 October 2020 (UTC)A protectorate, in its inception adopted by modern international law, is a dependent territory that has been granted local autonomy and some independence while still recognizing the suzerainty of a greater sovereign state.
Dear Geysirhead, Wikipedia is based on facts not personal opinions. See Opinion piece. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 09:55, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Geysirhead, we need third-party reliable sources to label it a protectorate. Wikipedia is not a place for original research. See WP:SYN. Please do not use de facto Armenian protectorate in other articles until a consensus is achieved. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 10:54, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Here is a source that says Pashinyan said "Artsakh is Armenia". @ Golbez: If you're still thinking it's not a protectorate, please look to its definition and get a RFC if you want. Ahmetlii ( talk) 12:31, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Solavirum, this is a war crime that has been covered by the international media, can be placed in the infobox. Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 16:05, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Rejection: No proof . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 16:35, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
BBC link https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54645254 referred as proof but, it doesn't clearly states anything about this being war crime. It also refers to https://www.bellingcat.com/news/rest-of-world/2020/10/15/an-execution-in-hadrut-karabakh/ which analyses the video. However, this side also doesn't clearly says that it was done by Azerbaijan army, it says " possibly special forces, and likely executed a short time later". So this can't be used as evidence because there are too many unanswered questions and too many statements such as "possibly" or "likely". 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 16:53, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
You guys are really going to say there is no proof? Are you serious man this is real. 2 civilians and one above 70 were executed. This is 100% real. I don’t get it you need Azerbaijan to confirm it? They’ll never do it. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 09:04, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
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The article is biased for the sake of fairness please include Ganja city, Tartar city, Mingachevir city ballistic missile and artillery attacks. 94.200.24.122 ( talk) 08:06, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Solavirum, how am i image spamming? The images of the Armenian protests i've added to the section were from two different locations; one in Los Angeles, one in Barcelona and the main reason for adding it was because the rallies Armenian communites held globally have been topic of international media untill this day and objectively have been more influential than Azerbaijani diaspora's protests. You've added two images from the same Azerbaijani protest in Turkey a week ago but suddenly it is "image spamming" that another one is being added to the Armenian section. Eurofan88 ( talk) 12:06, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Solavirum, you remove photos from the article, calling them "redundant", and compare these users who uploaded the pics as "from kindergarten". But at the same time, within 12 hours you have added 3 photos of Aliyev, [5], [6], [7] making this page to look like Ilham Aliyev's personal page. You always remind people to be polite and "good faith". However, you need to remind it yourself, too. You remove information without discussion and refuse to discuss it in talk pages, instead you revert the edits and explain your personal position in the summary, thinking that your position is the objective one. This is not a "kindergarten". Please be polite to other users and keep Wikipedia's voice neutral. If you can't control your biased or Azerbaijani side, so please take a break from editing until you become neutral again. We will be waiting. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան ( talk) 18:48, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I found it a bit strange why War Crime section doesn't talk about Ganja attach? Isn't that war crime? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Links :
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/10/17/13-killed-in-gan https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54488386 https://www.france24.com/en/europe/20201017-missiles-strike-residential-areas-in-azerbaijan-after-shelling-of-armenia-separatist-capital
Isn't this enough? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) Unfortunately Wikipedia is for those who shouting more and loud. It is clear that the missle hit Ganja was war crime. We need add this part. Could you please help me to prepare the content? 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 16:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Ahmetlii ( talk Yes please do it and thank you very much!
Solavirum is there any article or analysys f this video?
With all due respect sir you can not prove that Armenians did anything to Azerbaijani POWs or wore Azerbaijani uniforms. A third party would be something like the BBC not Heydar’s little son MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 09:11, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
@Ahmetlii I’m completely with you but Britain tends to be more pro-Azerbaijan and the fact that BBC posted the article it kind of changes things. Of course again the resources are limited so I don’t know... MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 16:05, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
MakeWikiReliable ( talk) please try engage into health discussion and not judge users. Moreover, according WP:MBFC BBC is a reliable source to refer. 149.126.119.233 ( talk) 18:32, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
At no point in the discussion did I ever try to judge a user. Judging a dictator yes, the user no. Please read carefully before accusing me of judging users. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 18:36, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Sepah's commander Mohammad Pakpour, visited the Khodaafarin Bridges and added: "The liberation of the occupied territories of Nagorno-Karabakh has been our demand from the beginning and we are happy that this has happened." [3] Do you think we could add these anywhere, or it is important? Beshogur ( talk) 10:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Beshogur ( talk) and Mr.User200 ( talk) thanks for contribution to Wikipedia. Please make sure that the content properly written and approved by all parties (wikipedia community). The topic you are referring is very sensitive and we don't want to end up with the information that states Iran support to Armenia or Azerbaijan. Iran's current deployment to Northern provinces is port relieving pressure in the provinces that Azerbaijanians live and there were multiple cases where Armenians shelled nearby Iranian towns. Hence, please make sure you provide clear picture of the event instead creating controversy. Mirhasanov ( talk) 05:25, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
References
According to Armenian sources Sputnik Armenia Jalal Harutyunyan is wounded(most likely heavily or KIA since he is replaced and has been removed from his position) 80.76.168.114 ( talk) 05:58, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Okay calm down no one said its Armenipedia. The Armenian side doesn’t even say he is heavily injured, they say it’s very light and he will recover soon. And to respect Azerbaijani side means to respect a fascist regime quite honestly. But that’s not the point. There is 0 evidence to back up the fact that he is dead. Very lightly injured. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 09:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Yes Azerbaijan is the fascist side and don’t forget how the war started because of Azerbaijan’s pogroms against Armenians. No one calls the death of 160 civilians a genocide. That’s absurd. Plus your first president admits that Azerbaijanis did Khojaly as Coupe d’etat. Jalal Hovhannisyan came up with a statement today and commented all the news articles talking about his death. Another Azerbaijani lie dismissed. MakeWikiReliable ( talk) 16:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
On October 19, Armenia's human rights defender reported about another war crime committed by the Azerbaijani side where they have beheaded an Armenian soldier, posted the picture on social media and called his brother to taunt him.[216][217][unreliable source?]
This sentence must be deleted as reference is not reliable and information is part of propaganda war. 149.126.119.233 ( talk) 18:42, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Asartea Trick | Treat this is what is reported. Information is already published in article without proper source or reference. Could you please check and delete it? Mirhasanov ( talk) 10:24, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
"Russia set to continue arms supplies to Azerbaijan and Armenia — official" source: https://tass.com/defense/868312 https://www.defensenews.com/global/europe/2020/10/15/will-russian-arms-sales-survive-the-azeri-armenian-conflict/
It should be mentioned in the article — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.120.129.22 ( talk) 11:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Johncdraper:, UN is calling these areas occupied territories. This is not NPOV, just fancy words in my opinions. Beshogur ( talk) 12:00, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
I've noticed a split banner at the top of the page but no split discussions. I would propose the following:
Juxlos ( talk) 11:14, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
On the timeline maybe we could cut a lot of it by instead of doing it daily we could do it weekly or by major events? Flalf Talk 13:57, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
In the intro under section Allegations of third-party involvement could we be more explicit about evidence on the involvement of Syrian mercenaries in Azerbaijan and the numbers. Here are three different sources providing evidence:
France24,
The Independent, and
Guardian. SOHR
reports the latest number to be at 2000 mercenaries as of 18 October. Note that we have a section about Kurdish fighters on the Armenian side, but up until now, I am yet to find any evidence to be presented. It would be reasonable to delete that section, but will leave that for another day
The current intro talks about context, allegations, etc. which don't provide a clear picture to the average reader. Mentioning the number is important here as well (not only in the side box) as it gives an understanding of scale of involvement. I suggest the intro to be entirely rewritten as follows:
Independent media outlets reported evidence of Syrian Mercenaries recruited in Syria by Turkey to fight alongside the Azerbaijan army in Nagorno Karabakh. As of 18 October,
Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) reported that 2000 mercenaries were recruited in Syria by Turkey and transferred to fight in Nagorno Karabakh.
--
Sataralynd (
talk)
01:42, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
France24, The Independent, and The Guardian reported evidence of Syrian mercenaries recruited in Syria by Turkey to fight alongside the Azerbaijan army in Nagorno Karabakh. As of 18 October, Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) reported that 2000 mercenaries were recruited in Syria by Turkey and transferred to fight in Nagorno Karabakh @ Armatura: could I ask you to make the edit? Thank you all,-- Sataralynd ( talk) 13:40, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
I personally think if we refer news links as a source then please write about PKK mercenaries in Armenia. https://www.eupoliticalreport.eu/pkks-involvement-in-the-armenia-azerbaijan-conflict-would-jeopardise-european-security/ https://www.aa.com.tr/en/azerbaijan-front-line/armenia-making-pkk-terrorists-wear-azerbaijani-uniforms/2018969.
Regarding articles in The Guardian or Independent they can't be considered as reference. If you would read the article the author talks about some unknown phone conversation they had, where person on other side claims to be recruited. Any one can make this kind of cheap war propaganda. Hence, the fact that Syrian mercenaries fight in Azerbaijani side is not proved. Even Russia andFrance first claimed it but was not able to provide prove. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.26.50.47 ( talk) 05:34, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd (
talk) Let me explain then:
Let's first start with The Guardian, you are the most probably referring to this link. ( https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/02/syrian-recruit-describes-role-of-foreign-fighters-in-nagorno-karabakh) .
The article refers to "Mustafa Khalid" which is fake name of the guy who was interviewed via phone. You can call the Guardian act like Syrian and tell them whatever you want. This doesn't makes things obvious. In article he states that "Syrians posted to Nagorno-Karabakh appear be wearing the blue uniforms that are standard issue to Azerbaijani border guards". In Azerbaijan Army there is no "blue uniforms", Azerbaijan Border Guard wears "green" uniforms and you just need to google it to find the colour. So far we saw pictures where some Armenian soldiers wears Azerbaijan board duart uniform. Considering that the article is based on some phone conversation which can be easily mimicked, this sources can't be reliable source and reference for Wikipedia.!
Secondly, The Independent you are probably referring to this link ( https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/armenia-azerbaijan-syria-war-fighting-mercenary-russia-b912446.html). It again refers some informations send by mobile phone and not verified and Whatsapp voice. Do you think that people who are ready to fight for 1200$ in Azerbaijan will reject some 2000$ offered them to tell lies to journalists? Anyway, the article also mentions Armenia recruiting people from Lebanon and Syria. In fact it happened in 1990s and it is happening now. Armenia even doesn't deny it. So if we refer to The Independent then we should mention Lebanese fighting for Armenia.
Thirdly, France24, It is not independent cannel and proven propaganda machine of France. Even some analysis conducted in this cannel done by armenian people. Hence, referring to this channel as explaining your point is unacceptable as per Wikipedia rules. 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 17:22, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd ( talk) According to WP:MBFC citing to France24 is not acceptable as it is not in the list of reliable sources. However, The Guardian and The Independent is on the list that can be trusted, but the statement in WP:MBFC says that source can be cited if the text or information covers non-specialist information. Considering that the information requires specific specialization on this type of investigations, The Independent can't not be cited.
The Guardian according to WP:MBFC can be cited but op-ends should be handled with WP:RSOPINION. The link you are referring is an opinoon and doesn't supported by board director of the The Guardian. The evidences are totally based on single person and her phone conversation with other unknown side. Hence, I believe we need to revisit this information below:
Prior to the resumption of hostilities, allegations emerged that hundreds of Syrian National Army members from the Hamza Division were transferred to Azerbaijan. - Reference is not consistent with WP:MBFC, hence can't be published as reliable information.
This was the first military casualty officially confirmed by the government. However, Armenian and Artsakh authorities have claimed 6,309 Azerbaijani soldiers and Syrian mercenaries were killed - Refers to armenian news agency hence, information shouldn't published because of its unreliability. Mirhasanov ( talk) 18:20, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd ( talk) Considering that France 24 is not in the list. this automatically makes it unreliable. Please carefully read what I wrote, I also explained why article in The Guardian is an opinion. If you will refer the right hand side of the article, you will see name of one journalist. Usually, when the article approved by board members all of their names appears on the list. The article is written on a context of Turkey strengthening its muscles and also does not include any proper investigation details referring only anonime conversations on the phone. Hence, it can't not be served as a fact. Hence, instead the article talking about Syrian Mercenaries fight for Azerbaijan it should underpin that those are claims that was raised by Macron and Security Chief of Russia, however despite the Azerbaijani side asking to provide an official report non of the side provided them yet. Mirhasanov ( talk) 05:04, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
About The Independent, again from WP:RS/P:There is consensus that The Guardian is generally reliable. The Guardian's op-eds should be handled with WP:RSOPINION. Some editors believe The Guardian is biased or opinionated for politics. See also: The Guardian blogs.
About SOHR, we have discussed before I guess, but for finding more resources about it; here and here. Also, there might be a possibility of WP:REFLOOP, although that might be between newspapers, without Wikipedia included. (To my opinion part) Because they include editorial stuffs as far as I see -if not, please correct me- and there's some doubts and there's missing points about the reliability, I don't think that it's safely usable for article, especially in a major article like this. I'd like to ping @ Rosguill:, who did statements on DRN and talked about Syrian mercenaries issue before. Ahmetlii ( talk) 13:49, 28 October 2020 (UTC)The Independent, a British newspaper, is considered a reliable source for non-specialist information. In March 2016, the publication discontinued its print edition to become an online newspaper; some editors advise caution for articles published after this date.
This
edit request to
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
https://m.facebook.com/herbimedia/
204.197.181.160 ( talk) 00:27, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
A celebrity section was added and removed by someone without checking that there was already prior discussion about it. Tallying up prior votes, there were 3 votes to KEEP, 3 to DELETE and one additional person is OK to KEEP as long as it is proportional to superregional organizations. Could we get new voting going from anyone that didn't place their input before. If you had input before, you can post a statement, but make sure to state that you also voted before. At the end we can tally up vote in support or opposition. To summarize the section had discussed several celebrities that has posted social media statements opposing the war, some in support of Armenians and some in Support of Azeris, it Included Kardashians, Kanye West, Cardi B. Elton John, Mesut Ozil and others. Please post SUPPORT or OPPOSE. Expertwikiguy ( talk) 00:07, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
No. This article is already very long, we don't need such additional trivia here. If someone decides to create a separate International reactions to the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict then sure, it could go there, but the main conflict article is not the place for this.-- Staberinde ( talk) 14:40, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Support to add a section, which includes supporters of both sides, with sources.-- Sataralynd ( talk) 19:21, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Support to add a section, which includes supporters of both sides, with sources, as per Sataralynd Armatura ( talk) 12:46, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose. Article is too long already, there's no need to make it longer by adding a section about what online influencers think about a conflict. I agree with Staberinde above. If there's going to be International reactions to the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, you can add it there. — CuriousGolden (talk· contrib) 12:51, 25 October 2020 (UTC)
Oppose Adding celebrity endorsements is just trivializing a serious ongoing conflict. Unlike reactions from international bodies which may have real impact on the conflict and its resolution, celebrity statements are basically meaningless. Schazjmd (talk) 00:54, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This Daily Beast article is giving Armenian casualties at around 1,000 soldiers dead, and 300-400 civilians killed (which happens to be much higher than what has been reported, and quite frankly, is horrible. Probably in line with Putin's estimate however). Here is the text from the article:
"One doctor in the bunker, who did not want to give his name due to restrictions on speaking to the media, told The Daily Beast that around 1,000 soldiers and 300 to 400 civilians had been declared dead at three hospitals in Artsakh, to his knowledge. These numbers point to far more casualties than the 900 officially reported by the Ministry of Defense in Artsakh, especially as some soldiers’ bodies are never retrieved from the front line."
I recommend putting this in the infobox and the casualties section (the standalone article included) of this article. How exactly you guys put this is up to you, especially since it differs a lot from the reported numbers. 2601:85:C101:BA30:FDBB:852E:A1F:5DB3 ( talk) 20:42, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
I'd like to prefer to use it with another citation rather than just using it for not taking risk about whether it's a false news or not. -- Ahmetlii ( talk) 15:48, 27 October 2020 (UTC)The Daily Beast is considered generally reliable for news. Most editors consider The Daily Beast a biased or opinionated source. Some editors advise caution when using this source for controversial statements of fact related to living persons.
Well, the bias refers to mostly domestic concerns in the US, as the Daily Beast slant is liberal, so I don't think it is referring to any partiality in this conflict per se (and there are no controversial statements made about living persons in the source) I doubt the doctor is spreading fake news, however, but I cannot be the judge of that. Anyhow, I agree with you, it would be much better if we can find another source that references this number, as it would be more reliable then. But I'm sure we can find a place for this still in the article, if not in the infobox then perhaps buried somewhere in the casualties section. 2601:85:C101:BA30:FDBB:852E:A1F:5DB3 ( talk) 16:02, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Any opinions on this? It's the " " absence for me haha. Eurofan88 ( talk) 20:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Genocide Watch has described the situation as a 'genocide emergency' for Armenians in Nagorno-Karabakh, citing Azerbaijan’s current targeting of civilians in Nagorno-Karabakh, denial of past genocide against Armenians, and its official use of hate speech as factors leading to their assessment [1] [2] [3] International Association of Genocide Scholars issued an open letter, considering the air raids conducted by the Azerbaijani military on Shushi Holy Savior Cathedral as a part of policy of the cultural genocide, blaming Azerbaijani government in systematic destruction of the Armenian historical heritage” [4].
Must be removed as the content is still subject of discussion and was added without consensus of all parties [5]. Mirhasanov ( talk) 07:43, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The use of cluster munition by Azerbaijan against civilian areas of Nagorno Karabakh and in the capital Stepanakert has been well established by independent third party sources (see
here and
here). And yet, when checking whether the article adequately reflects the evidence, I actually found the opposite: in the Official Statements section, under Azerbaijan, the fifth paragraph starts with: Two days later, Azerbaijan stated that Armenia had deployed cluster munitions against cities.. Looking at the
source, there is actually only a claim made by Hikmat Hajiyev,
Ilham Aliyev's aide. This is a very serious accusation and we need more than an Azerbaijani source affiliated with the government to claim it. We actually need third party evidence similar to that of the above sources confirming Azerbaijan's use of cluster munitions. Therefore:
1) could we remove the above sentence from the article?
On the other hand, going back to my original point, the article needs to reflect the evidence that banned cluster munitions have been used by Azerbaijan against civilian areas in Nagorno Karabakh. Therefore:
2) in Official Statements section, under Armenia please modify the third paragraph sentence about cluster munitions to read: International third parties confirmed witnessing evidence of the use of banned cluster munition by Azerbaijan against civilian areas of Nagorno-Karabakh (see here and here)-- Sataralynd ( talk) 23:27, 22 October 2020 (UTC)
193.196.11.188 ( talk) 10:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Solavirum: if you have an issue with the cluster bomb video, please refer to Wikimedia Commons because the issue you're raising is a licensing issue, not an issue pertaining to content. The video is relevant to the text. Étienne Dolet ( talk) 07:41, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Hi,
Under Territorial Changes (in the infobox) an Azeri claim - supported by an Azeri media source - is represented. Armenia has also released a map of the battlefield as of today, although as far as I know it can only be found on a YouTube video on an official Armenian government channel. I think both perspectives should be represented in this section-- LOLCaatz ( talk) 01:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
LOLCaatz ( talk) The map is an issue because neither Azeris nor Armenians agree with current map. Hence, this shouldn't be a big issue for now as it can be changed. Wikipedia article for 2020 War needs to be an informative not to serve propaganda machine of the war. Mirhasanov ( talk) 09:42, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
LOLCaatz ( talk) your point is right but if we will put claims of the both country then it will be a sentence not a note. More details are mentioned in the article. As I mentioned war is on going and this article will change. Mirhasanov ( talk) 16:23, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Mirhasanov: I agree with this. The only thing is that the Armenian claim is an image which is difficult to represent in a note without breaking WP:SYN. It's pretty clear that Azerbaijan has taken a significant amount of territory in the south, both Azeri and Armenian state sources confirm this so this is of no doubt. Azeri sources have stated an exact amount of villages/settlements which is much easier to represent in a sentence. -- LOLCaatz ( talk) 23:15, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
:Agreed: LOLCaatz ( talk) Thanks for your constructive approach. Mirhasanov ( talk) 04:25, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Hey! I'm not sure why but every time I check this article there are just isolated refnames everywhere, when editing please try to avoid this. Thanks! Flalf Talk 12:52, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Armenia claims that Syrian fighters fought on the Azerbaijani side. And this confirms in Wikipedia. Azerbaijan confirms that there are PKK members on the Armenian side, but wikipedia does not write it. You are biased. He confirms that the interrogated Armenian soldiers captured are members of the PKK. Fix this!-- 45.135.206.211 ( talk) 16:09, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/diplomacy/armenia-using-pkk-on-front-lines-azerbaijan-says https://www.dailysabah.com/politics/war-on-terror/armenia-transfers-ypgpkk-terrorists-to-occupied-area-to-train-militias-against-azerbaijan https://www.aa.com.tr/en/europe/armenia-using-pkk-on-front-lines-azerbaijan/2014567
The Azerbaijani government is saying the claim, so I have to report on the BBC and The Guardian? The BBC and The Guardian investigative commission or news agency? How correct is it that you accept these resources as 100% neutral-- 45.135.206.211 ( talk) 16:25, 24 October 2020 (UTC)
Here are sources that says PKK fight for Armenia: EU Political Report is an independent Brussels based news portal delivering authoritative comment on the latest economic and political developments in Europe for key EU decision makers and opinion formers.
is a Brussels based European multimedia news platform, providing online news and video comment on EU and world affairs in all EU official languages. https://www.eureporter.co/frontpage/2020/09/23/pkks-involvement-in-the-armenia-azerbaijan-conflict-would-jeopardize-european-security/
The Jamestown Foundation is an independent, nonpartisan organization supported by tax-deductible contributions from corporations, foundations and individuals. https://jamestown.org/program/reviving-a-forgotten-threat-the-pkk-in-nagorno-karabakh/
I think this should be enough independent sources. I can enlist dosens. 188.227.214.227 ( talk) 17:38, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
Sataralynd ( talk Please stop acting like administrator of the page. This is discussion page and no one looking for your permission or serious manner to start the conversation. Hence, instead of attacking users make sure that you clearly reflect your view. Provided first two articles is enough to start the discussion, I am not favour on third one as it written by Azeri author. Moreover, Wikipedia doesn't refer to newspapers to prove the content. You all the time refer to France24, which deemed to be bias. If we refer to France24 then we should refer to AlJazeera and TRT World. The "facts" you are referring about Syrian fighters is claim [ [8]] not proved yet, similar to PKK fighters in Karabakh is also claim. So, if we are referring to claims not to facts to build up the article then both sides must be reflected. Mirhasanov ( talk) 08:41, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Mr. @
Sataralynd:
Sataralynd, could you show us the Syrian fighters in the Azerbaijani army by presenting the geographically located video evidence you mentioned? --
45.135.206.249 (
talk)
23:57, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Check
these
four
sources--
Sataralynd (
talk)
13:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
This
edit request to
2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
This Daily Beast article is giving Armenian casualties at around 1,000 soldiers dead, and 300-400 civilians killed as of October 26 (which happens to be much higher than what has been reported, but probably in line with Putin's estimate however). I am requesting the addition of the civilian number, not the military. Here is the text from the article:
"One doctor in the bunker, who did not want to give his name due to restrictions on speaking to the media, told The Daily Beast that around 1,000 soldiers and 300 to 400 civilians had been declared dead at three hospitals in Artsakh, to his knowledge. These numbers point to far more casualties than the 900 officially reported by the Ministry of Defense in Artsakh, especially as some soldiers’ bodies are never retrieved from the front line."
I recommend putting this in the infobox and/or the casualties section of this article. How exactly you guys put this is up to you, I'm sure you'll argue over the specifics, especially since it differs a lot from the reported numbers, but it is an RS and worthy of mention.
I am making this specific edit request because my earlier "Armenian casualties" talk section went stale. The Daily Beast is an RS in relation to this regional conflict. To use my own text in the previous section: "Well, the bias refers to mostly domestic concerns in the US, as the Daily Beast slant is liberal, so I don't think it is referring to any partiality in this conflict per se (and there are no controversial statements made about living persons in the source)".
If put in the infobox, I suggest adding: per Daily Beast as of October 26. If put in the casualties section, add the same thing. Once again, this request is for the addition of the 300-400 civilian dead number, not the military number. And again, this can be put in either the infobox or the casualties section. 2601:85:C101:BA30:ACF6:B4EC:DBBA:BFEC ( talk) 02:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC) 2601:85:C101:BA30:ACF6:B4EC:DBBA:BFEC ( talk) 02:56, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@ WMrapids:, please say me what clutter do you see on the infobox about the settlements? These are important places, and has to be showed. Plus "the border between the disputed area with Iran" is not a "neutral wording", this area is not disputed, nor the border. Beshogur ( talk) 19:56, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
LOLCaatz ( talk) there is no side called Artsakh. The conflict is between Armenia and Azerbaijan. De facto Artsakh is proxy regime managed by Armenia. Mirhasanov ( talk) 10:29, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
822 - Calls for the cessation of hostilities and the withdrawal of all occupying forces from the Kelbajar district and other recently occupied areas of the Republic of Azerbaijan. [6]
853- Demands the immediate cessation of all hostilities; Calls on the withdrawal of the occupying forces from the district of Agdam and other recently occupied areas of the Republic of Azerbaijan and reaffirms UN Resolution 822. Endorses the continuing efforts by the Minsk Group of the CSCE to achieve a peaceful resolution to the conflict. [7]
874 - Calls upon the parties concerned to make effective and permanent the ceasefire established as a result of the direct contacts undertaken with the assistance of the Government of the Russian Federation in support of the CSCE Minsk Group; welcomes and commends to the parties the "Adjusted timetable of urgent steps to implement Security Council resolutions 822 (1993) and 853 (1993)" set out on 28 Sept. 1993 at the meeting of the CSCE Minsk Group and calls on the parties to accept it; calls for the immediate implementation of the reciprocal and urgent steps provided for in the CSCE Minsk Group's "Adjusted timetable", including the withdrawal of forces from recently occupied territories and the removal of all obstacles to communications and transportation; calls also for an early convening of the CSCE Minsk Conference for the purpose of arriving at a negotiated settlement to the conflict; requests the Secretary-General to send a representative to attend the CSCE Minsk Conference and to provide assistance for the substantive negotiations that will follow the opening of the Conference; calls on all parties to refrain from violations of international humanitarian law and renews its call in resolutions 822 (1993) and 853 (1993) for unimpeded access for international humanitarian relief efforts in all areas affected by the conflict; requests the Secretary-General and relevant international agencies to provide urgent humanitarian assistance to the affected civilian population and to assist refugees and displaced persons to return to their homes in security and dignity. [8]
884- Condemns the recent violations of the ceasefire established between the parties; calls upon the Government of Armenia to use its influence to achieve compliance by the Armenians of the Nagorny Karabakh region of the Azerbaijani Republic with resolutions 822 (1993), 853 (1993) and 874 (1993), and to ensure that the forces involved are not provided with the means to extend their military campaign further; demands from the parties concerned the immediate cessation of armed hostilities, the unilateral withdrawal of occupying forces from the Zangelan district and the city of Goradiz, and the withdrawal of occupying forces from other recently occupied areas of the Azerbaijani Republic in accordance with the "Adjusted timetable of urgent steps to implement Security Council resolutions 822 (1993) and 853 (1993)" (S/26522, appendix) as amended by the CSCE Minsk Group meeting in Vienna of 2 to 8 Nov. 1993; strongly urges the parties concerned to resume promptly and to make effective and permanent the ceasefire established as a result of the direct contacts undertaken with the assistance of the Government of the Russian Federation in support of the CSCE Minsk Group; urges again all States in the region to refrain from any hostile acts and from any interference or intervention, which would lead to the widening of the conflict and undermine peace and security in the region; requests the Secretary-General and relevant international agencies to provide urgent humanitarian assistance to the affected civilian population. [9] Mirhasanov ( talk) 04:21, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
@ Mirhasanov: Don't insult my knowledge on the conflict. I am aware of the UN resolutions however please view /info/en/?search=Crimea which is also listed on the page as "disputed" and is in a similar situation, where the territory is internationally recognized as part of Ukraine but is controlled and "annexed" by Russia. The historical basis of the conflict is extremely complex but since both sides have legitimate historical reasons to claim that territory, what is relevant in the present day is that whoever manages to control it or maintain control of it will probably be able to keep it.-- LOLCaatz ( talk) 09:35, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Please do not not place the Azerbaijan-Iran border link in the infobox until there is a consensus. The whole point of this article is about the dispute of this area. Describing it to readers as explicitly Armenia's, Azerbaijan's or whoever's border with Iran is not NPOV.-- WMrapids ( talk) 11:06, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
The UN doesn't recognize Taiwan, really? Dispute happens between two countries, not a self declared states. See UN res 62/243:
1. Reaffirms continued respect and support for the sovereignty and territorial integrity of the Republic of Azerbaijan within its internationally recognized borders; 2. Demands the immediate, complete and unconditional withdrawal of all Armenian forces from all the occupied territories of the Republic of Azerbaijan.[10] Beshogur ( talk) 11:31, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
the disputed area's border with Iranis adequate for that part, although I stand by my perspective regarding the former. signed, Rosguill talk 15:45, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
References
Isn't Serbia an army suplier for both sides? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.221.156.45 ( talk) 20:33, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
Serbia is arm support for Armenia, president of Serbia, Aleksandar Vučić said that Serbia will have greater relations with Armenia in future. Лука Раичевић ( talk) 16:17, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Armenians intentionally began to keep pigs in the Agdam mosque, turning religious monuments into an object for insults. The current situation of the Juma mosque confirms the violation by the Armenians of the 1954 Hague Convention on the Protection of Cultural Property in the Event of Armed Conflict [1].
Hey Expertwikiguy! Thank you for your edit here. But I've got some doubts that it is included in the correct section. Cyber warfare would include hacking and cyber attacks on a gov's behalf. Not some social media users sending emails in protest. This section seems more fitting for it though. --► Sincerely: Sola Virum 19:18, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
Just a procedural note: as long as neutrality tag is at the article's top and the article is on the front page, please link to a specific talk thread for accessibility so we can resolve the dispute ASAP and get rid of it. Brandmeister talk 22:09, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
https://armenpress.am/eng/news/1033218/
Official confession: existing map should be updated Republic of Artsakh President Arayik Harutyunyan: Shushi, today our victory is conditioned by the protection of Shushi. The enemy is just a few kilometers from here, maximum 5 kilometers. -- 45.135.206.249 ( talk) 22:26, 29 October 2020 (UTC)
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Add 'Pakistan' and 'Syrian Militants' under supporters of Azerbaijan. Hambvart ( talk) 13:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
Here are the media reports about Syrian Fighters [2] [3] [4] [5]
Here are the media's report about Pakistan's Army
[6]
[7]
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23:07, 29 October 2020 (UTC)References