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Regarding this revert, I fail to understand what part was “far too liberal” paraphrasing. In fact, quite the contrary, the current wording seems to be a misrepresentation of the source. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 12:12, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
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I would like to add the following text to the "Violence against Jammu Muslims" section based on the book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History by Prem Shankar Jha. (ISBN: 9780195648584, Publisher: Oxford University Press, Pages cited: 11-12). Please add the following to the third paragraph in the section "Violence against Jammu Muslims". Text to be added as follows:
However, alternately, Prem Shankar Jha states in his book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History, "That while there were undoubtedly atrocities committed by bands of Sikhs and by some of the state troops against Muslims in the border belt of Jammu province in the first weeks of October, these were caused by an overspill into the state of the communal carnage occurring all along its borders in East and West Punjab, and overreaction and loss of control by the state forces in the face of atrocities committed by Muslims on Hindus both within Jammu & Kashmir state and in the adjoining areas of west Punjab, where only slightly less than half the population was Hindu and Sikh. While this was certainly no justification, Pakistan's charge that state troops were 'cleansing' the state of its 77 percent Muslim population in order to enable the Maharaja to accede to India is wholly unsustainable. Had this been his intention, he would have first 'cleansed' his 8,000-strong state force of its almost 3,000 Muslims and not waited for them to kill their officers before deserting to the enemy on 23-5 October. That the raids into Kashmir by the Pathan tribesmen were not spontaneous retaliation aimed at saving their Muslim brethren from the Dogra genocide but were carefully planned and instigated at least from the end of August or early September, i.e., a whole month before any of the alleged atrocities by the Kashmir state troops against Muslims in the border region took place, at a time when Kashmir was completely peaceful." [1] Pbeditwiki ( talk) 14:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
References
We need better sources for involvement of INA, AD, etc. TrangaBellam ( talk) 23:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3: How these are not a part of Jammu massacre? The source clearly says "By August 1947, further south in the district Jammu, a state-sponsored pogrom known as the "Jammu massacre" had commenced." [4]
Also see: "In his book, The Pakistanis, Ian Stephens notes that the violence in Jammu began in August 1947 and continued for about eleven weeks. Stephens claims that five lakh people were killed and two lakh went missing, with many women being abducted." [5] Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 10:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
By the way, the so-called "losing control" happened in October. It was in reality a tactical withdrawal. The state forces had been strung along the border in penny pockets, and Army Chief Henry Lawrence Scott, who stepped down on 30 September, wrote in his final report that it was a problem because they won't be able to withstand sustained attacks. In October, orders were issued by Brigadier Rajendra Singh to withdraw them to fortified towns such as Poonch, Kotli, Mirpur, Bhimber and Jhangar. See
On 6 October, the rebels launched attacks from across the border, and some of the "penny pockets" got caught in the fire. Some of them were rescued, and others succumbed. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Indian authors are generally reticent concerning both the indigenous roots of the revolt of the Muslim inhabitants of Poonch and in August 1947 and the orgy of communal violence in Jammu province which was orchestrated by the state police and Dogra armed forces. The September 1947 communal massacres in Jammu province created a flood of over 80,000 Muslim refugees to neighbouring Sialkot in West Punjab." [6] The source has been falsified on Wikipedia, nothing else. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 11:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The attacks on Muslim villages in Jammu province began in the middle of October. Thousands of Muslims were killed at the hands of Dogra troops, members of the RSS and Sikh jathas. The Pakistan Government's slant on these massacres can be found in Government of Pakistan, Kashmir Before Accession.
Mohammad Yosuf Saraf, former chief justice of the PAAJK High Court, says that by 10 October 1947, 2,000 Muslims had migrated to Sialkot.[12: Hasan & Rad, Memory Lane to Jammu, p.161]. [1]
The September 1947 communal massacre in Jammu and Poonch pushed over 80,000 Muslim refugees to West Pakistan.
Less commented on is the role of the September 1947 massacres in Jammu and the flood of 80,000 Muslim refugees to neighboring Sialkot in West Punjab.
Afzal Mirza, published in Dawn on 2 January 1951, states that Muslim refugees started entering Pakistan at the end of September 1947 in "small unnoticeable batches every day." It continued during October-November 1947. A total of 200,000 Muslims took refuge in Pakistan. This is called the "first wave." [2]
The communal riots took place in Jammu after instrument of accession was signed, after Sheikh Abdullah took over as head of administration – that is November. Some riots were taking place earlier also, but mass killings, when the convoys went to Pakistan and were butchered, happened when Sheikh Abdullah was head of the administration. He didn’t intervene or could not. I don’t know the reasons but perhaps his feeling was that the Muslims in Jammu were not his supporters. [3]
The Maharaja and his armed forces moved to suppress this campaign. Around 15 August, they may also have begun to repress Muslims, by killing them or by forcefully disarming them. A 1948 publication stated that 'hundreds' of people in Bagh, a district in Poonch, were killed at a hoisting of the Pakistan flag to celebrate Independence Day. Two short telegrams to Jinnah on 29 August from the 'Muslims of Poonch' and the 'Muslims of Bagh' also spoke of anti-Muslim brutality by the Maharaja's forces around the same time. The Muslim Conference politician who became the foundation President of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan from Rawalakot in Poonch, was quoted by a 1949 publication as stating that the Maharaja had unleashed a 'reign of terror on 24 August 1947 that killed 500 people. While the number of casualties cannot be confirmed, 'shoot-on-sight' orders were apparently issued to army officers on 2 September 1947.[8]
In the period between 15 August and 26 October 1947, people and J&K took three significant actions that politically and physically divided J&K and instigated the continuing dispute over the state's international status: a Muslim anti-Maharaja uprising in Poonch; significant inter-religious violence in Jammy Province; and, the creation of Azad Kashmir in the areas of Jammy Province that the pro-Pakistan Muslims 'liberated'. These three actions occurred before Hari Singh's accession to India on 26 October 1947 and before either dominion or its military forced had officially entered J&K." [9]
These Muslim localities presented a picture of destruction by mid-September 1947. Hundreds of Gujars were massacred in the Ram Nagar locality of the city of Jammu. [...] By mid-September 1947, Jammy city's Muslim population was halved.
The specific claim that Serena Hussain made was:
... Muslims had gone from being a majority in the Jammu district to a minority (Chatta 2013)
But "Chatta 2013", which was actually an article he wrote for Pakistan Visions in 2009 titled "Terrible Fate..", [4] doesn't have this claim. In fact, he presents a table showing the Muslim percentages in various districts, which tallies with our figures taken from the census records. So, she added her own WP:OR and gave an improper citation, which doesn't do her any credit.
As for Chattha, he didn't make such glaring errors. So I take back the "inaccurate" comment about him, but the "sloppiness" comment stands. He was writing this article in 2009, where he cited the Pakistan Times information. But he didn't examine the Dawn information that Snedden has cited and analysed in detail. [2] Chattha knew the Snedden article. His own article was written as a rejoinder to it. But he ignored available evidence which had already appeared in the scholarly literature. At a minimum, he should have mentioned it and explained why he discounted it. That is sloppiness.
But all these reports are wrong. They took 100,000 East Punjab refugees who passed through Jammu in August–September, to be originating in Jammu itself. Whether that was an honest mistake or deliberate misinformation, I can't say. But it is pervasive throughout the Pakistani literature on Kashmir. In fact, Francis Mudie, the governor of West Punjab, cited it to the Commonwealth Relations Office in London. All the claims of "violence in Jammu during September" are based on this misinformation. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Snedden says:
The most plausible refugee figures are in a report titled 'Kashmir refugees in Pakistan' by Afzal Mirza, published in Dawn on 2 January 1951.
And Chattha completely ignores the report in his OUP-published thesis! I suppose OUP didn't send it to Snedden for peer review. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 23:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Snedden cites a 1948 publication from West Punjab, based on refugee testimonies, recording 90 anti-Muslim incidents in Jammu and Kashmir between August 8 and December 12, 1947, with 118,459 alleged Muslims deaths and 13,360 abductions, with all incidents related to these deaths “involving state or Dogra troops”." [13]
References
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The starting of the article looks heavily biased and tries to shift all the blame on Hindus , when the reality is they were the first ones to get massacred several times in the history of Kashmir , and also in the events leading upto 1947 aug massacre like the Rawalpindi and noakhali genocide . Also the Hindus of today's POK are extinct . 1947 Rawalpindi massacres https://g.co/kgs/n2GEJ7x Abraca21 ( talk) 19:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a
reliable source if appropriate.
PianoDan (
talk)
19:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Kautilya3 I can see it. You reverted my edit
There's a clear misinterpretation of the source. While there may have been some killings, there is no evidence of the massacre of 100,000 Muslims in Jammu. The author refers to this alleged widespread massacre as a tale.
Direct quote of the author: “SOME WRITERS CLAIM THAT UP TO TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND MUSLIMS were killed in Jammu Province of Jammu and Kashmir soon after the partition of the Indian subcontinent in August 1947 [...] They allege that these Muslims were... the tale of a massacre of Muslims caused a chain of events...” [1] Stormbird (talk) 04:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
References
In this article how can you accuse Maharaja Hari Singh of the mentioned crimes without showing any references or proofs. This article is trying to tarnish his name and glory. I am requesting to remove his name from the mentioned allegations if there is no concrete evidence. Sudhakar Vankamamidi ( talk) 19:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
1947 Jammu massacres article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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Find sources: Google ( books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
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1Auto-archiving period: 365 days
![]() |
![]() | This article is rated B-class on Wikipedia's
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|
![]() | The contents of the 1947 Mirpur massacre page were merged into 1947 Jammu massacres on 20 August 2022. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page. |
![]() |
Daily pageviews of this article
A graph should have been displayed here but
graphs are temporarily disabled. Until they are enabled again, visit the interactive graph at
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This section is pinned and will not be automatically archived. |
Regarding this revert, I fail to understand what part was “far too liberal” paraphrasing. In fact, quite the contrary, the current wording seems to be a misrepresentation of the source. UnpetitproleX ( talk) 12:12, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
I would like to add the following text to the "Violence against Jammu Muslims" section based on the book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History by Prem Shankar Jha. (ISBN: 9780195648584, Publisher: Oxford University Press, Pages cited: 11-12). Please add the following to the third paragraph in the section "Violence against Jammu Muslims". Text to be added as follows:
However, alternately, Prem Shankar Jha states in his book Kashmir, 1947: Rival Versions of History, "That while there were undoubtedly atrocities committed by bands of Sikhs and by some of the state troops against Muslims in the border belt of Jammu province in the first weeks of October, these were caused by an overspill into the state of the communal carnage occurring all along its borders in East and West Punjab, and overreaction and loss of control by the state forces in the face of atrocities committed by Muslims on Hindus both within Jammu & Kashmir state and in the adjoining areas of west Punjab, where only slightly less than half the population was Hindu and Sikh. While this was certainly no justification, Pakistan's charge that state troops were 'cleansing' the state of its 77 percent Muslim population in order to enable the Maharaja to accede to India is wholly unsustainable. Had this been his intention, he would have first 'cleansed' his 8,000-strong state force of its almost 3,000 Muslims and not waited for them to kill their officers before deserting to the enemy on 23-5 October. That the raids into Kashmir by the Pathan tribesmen were not spontaneous retaliation aimed at saving their Muslim brethren from the Dogra genocide but were carefully planned and instigated at least from the end of August or early September, i.e., a whole month before any of the alleged atrocities by the Kashmir state troops against Muslims in the border region took place, at a time when Kashmir was completely peaceful." [1] Pbeditwiki ( talk) 14:52, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
References
We need better sources for involvement of INA, AD, etc. TrangaBellam ( talk) 23:45, 30 November 2023 (UTC)
@ Kautilya3: How these are not a part of Jammu massacre? The source clearly says "By August 1947, further south in the district Jammu, a state-sponsored pogrom known as the "Jammu massacre" had commenced." [4]
Also see: "In his book, The Pakistanis, Ian Stephens notes that the violence in Jammu began in August 1947 and continued for about eleven weeks. Stephens claims that five lakh people were killed and two lakh went missing, with many women being abducted." [5] Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 10:55, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
By the way, the so-called "losing control" happened in October. It was in reality a tactical withdrawal. The state forces had been strung along the border in penny pockets, and Army Chief Henry Lawrence Scott, who stepped down on 30 September, wrote in his final report that it was a problem because they won't be able to withstand sustained attacks. In October, orders were issued by Brigadier Rajendra Singh to withdraw them to fortified towns such as Poonch, Kotli, Mirpur, Bhimber and Jhangar. See
On 6 October, the rebels launched attacks from across the border, and some of the "penny pockets" got caught in the fire. Some of them were rescued, and others succumbed. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 11:34, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
Indian authors are generally reticent concerning both the indigenous roots of the revolt of the Muslim inhabitants of Poonch and in August 1947 and the orgy of communal violence in Jammu province which was orchestrated by the state police and Dogra armed forces. The September 1947 communal massacres in Jammu province created a flood of over 80,000 Muslim refugees to neighbouring Sialkot in West Punjab." [6] The source has been falsified on Wikipedia, nothing else. Aman Kumar Goel ( Talk) 11:49, 1 December 2023 (UTC)
The attacks on Muslim villages in Jammu province began in the middle of October. Thousands of Muslims were killed at the hands of Dogra troops, members of the RSS and Sikh jathas. The Pakistan Government's slant on these massacres can be found in Government of Pakistan, Kashmir Before Accession.
Mohammad Yosuf Saraf, former chief justice of the PAAJK High Court, says that by 10 October 1947, 2,000 Muslims had migrated to Sialkot.[12: Hasan & Rad, Memory Lane to Jammu, p.161]. [1]
The September 1947 communal massacre in Jammu and Poonch pushed over 80,000 Muslim refugees to West Pakistan.
Less commented on is the role of the September 1947 massacres in Jammu and the flood of 80,000 Muslim refugees to neighboring Sialkot in West Punjab.
Afzal Mirza, published in Dawn on 2 January 1951, states that Muslim refugees started entering Pakistan at the end of September 1947 in "small unnoticeable batches every day." It continued during October-November 1947. A total of 200,000 Muslims took refuge in Pakistan. This is called the "first wave." [2]
The communal riots took place in Jammu after instrument of accession was signed, after Sheikh Abdullah took over as head of administration – that is November. Some riots were taking place earlier also, but mass killings, when the convoys went to Pakistan and were butchered, happened when Sheikh Abdullah was head of the administration. He didn’t intervene or could not. I don’t know the reasons but perhaps his feeling was that the Muslims in Jammu were not his supporters. [3]
The Maharaja and his armed forces moved to suppress this campaign. Around 15 August, they may also have begun to repress Muslims, by killing them or by forcefully disarming them. A 1948 publication stated that 'hundreds' of people in Bagh, a district in Poonch, were killed at a hoisting of the Pakistan flag to celebrate Independence Day. Two short telegrams to Jinnah on 29 August from the 'Muslims of Poonch' and the 'Muslims of Bagh' also spoke of anti-Muslim brutality by the Maharaja's forces around the same time. The Muslim Conference politician who became the foundation President of Azad Kashmir, Sardar Muhammad Ibrahim Khan from Rawalakot in Poonch, was quoted by a 1949 publication as stating that the Maharaja had unleashed a 'reign of terror on 24 August 1947 that killed 500 people. While the number of casualties cannot be confirmed, 'shoot-on-sight' orders were apparently issued to army officers on 2 September 1947.[8]
In the period between 15 August and 26 October 1947, people and J&K took three significant actions that politically and physically divided J&K and instigated the continuing dispute over the state's international status: a Muslim anti-Maharaja uprising in Poonch; significant inter-religious violence in Jammy Province; and, the creation of Azad Kashmir in the areas of Jammy Province that the pro-Pakistan Muslims 'liberated'. These three actions occurred before Hari Singh's accession to India on 26 October 1947 and before either dominion or its military forced had officially entered J&K." [9]
These Muslim localities presented a picture of destruction by mid-September 1947. Hundreds of Gujars were massacred in the Ram Nagar locality of the city of Jammu. [...] By mid-September 1947, Jammy city's Muslim population was halved.
The specific claim that Serena Hussain made was:
... Muslims had gone from being a majority in the Jammu district to a minority (Chatta 2013)
But "Chatta 2013", which was actually an article he wrote for Pakistan Visions in 2009 titled "Terrible Fate..", [4] doesn't have this claim. In fact, he presents a table showing the Muslim percentages in various districts, which tallies with our figures taken from the census records. So, she added her own WP:OR and gave an improper citation, which doesn't do her any credit.
As for Chattha, he didn't make such glaring errors. So I take back the "inaccurate" comment about him, but the "sloppiness" comment stands. He was writing this article in 2009, where he cited the Pakistan Times information. But he didn't examine the Dawn information that Snedden has cited and analysed in detail. [2] Chattha knew the Snedden article. His own article was written as a rejoinder to it. But he ignored available evidence which had already appeared in the scholarly literature. At a minimum, he should have mentioned it and explained why he discounted it. That is sloppiness.
But all these reports are wrong. They took 100,000 East Punjab refugees who passed through Jammu in August–September, to be originating in Jammu itself. Whether that was an honest mistake or deliberate misinformation, I can't say. But it is pervasive throughout the Pakistani literature on Kashmir. In fact, Francis Mudie, the governor of West Punjab, cited it to the Commonwealth Relations Office in London. All the claims of "violence in Jammu during September" are based on this misinformation. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 22:51, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Snedden says:
The most plausible refugee figures are in a report titled 'Kashmir refugees in Pakistan' by Afzal Mirza, published in Dawn on 2 January 1951.
And Chattha completely ignores the report in his OUP-published thesis! I suppose OUP didn't send it to Snedden for peer review. -- Kautilya3 ( talk) 23:43, 2 December 2023 (UTC)
Snedden cites a 1948 publication from West Punjab, based on refugee testimonies, recording 90 anti-Muslim incidents in Jammu and Kashmir between August 8 and December 12, 1947, with 118,459 alleged Muslims deaths and 13,360 abductions, with all incidents related to these deaths “involving state or Dogra troops”." [13]
References
![]() | This
edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
The starting of the article looks heavily biased and tries to shift all the blame on Hindus , when the reality is they were the first ones to get massacred several times in the history of Kashmir , and also in the events leading upto 1947 aug massacre like the Rawalpindi and noakhali genocide . Also the Hindus of today's POK are extinct . 1947 Rawalpindi massacres https://g.co/kgs/n2GEJ7x Abraca21 ( talk) 19:00, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a
"change X to Y" format and provide a
reliable source if appropriate.
PianoDan (
talk)
19:42, 28 March 2024 (UTC)
Kautilya3 I can see it. You reverted my edit
There's a clear misinterpretation of the source. While there may have been some killings, there is no evidence of the massacre of 100,000 Muslims in Jammu. The author refers to this alleged widespread massacre as a tale.
Direct quote of the author: “SOME WRITERS CLAIM THAT UP TO TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND MUSLIMS were killed in Jammu Province of Jammu and Kashmir soon after the partition of the Indian subcontinent in August 1947 [...] They allege that these Muslims were... the tale of a massacre of Muslims caused a chain of events...” [1] Stormbird (talk) 04:51, 8 May 2024 (UTC)
References
In this article how can you accuse Maharaja Hari Singh of the mentioned crimes without showing any references or proofs. This article is trying to tarnish his name and glory. I am requesting to remove his name from the mentioned allegations if there is no concrete evidence. Sudhakar Vankamamidi ( talk) 19:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)