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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
According to a letter by Adolf Berman, the Jewish Secretary of the Zegota, to Teresa Preker(owa), dated Feb. 26, 1977, there were others, especially meritorious in that activity, and he mentioned: Prof. Maria Grzegorzewski, a distinguished theatre artist, Irena Solski, psychologist, Janina Buchholtz-Bukolski (q.v.), Irena Sawicki (q.v.) educator. Further there was Dr. Ewa Rybicki, scouting activist, Irena Kurowski, school principal, Prof. Stanislaw Ossowski and Prof. Maria Ossowski, Dr. Jan Zabinski, zoo director (q.v.) and his wife Antonina, a writer, (q.v.). Still others were Stefania Sempolowski, the unforgettable director of children's theatres, Jan Wesolowski (q.v.) Sylwia Rzeczycki, (q.v.) Maria Laski, Maria Derwisz-Parnowski. Great merits had Zofia Latallo, Zofia Rodziewicz, former Senator, Dr. Regina Fleszar and others. Beside the university educated people there were others, like Waleria Malaczewski, Antonina Roguski, Jadwiga Leszczanin, Zofia Debicki (q.v.). Manual workers were not absent either, like Stanislaw Michalski, tailor, Kajszczak, from Lomianki and Pawel Harmuszko, farmers, Kazimierz Kuc, laborer and many others. Only those who have the letters (q.v.) after their name have been recognized as "Righteous"up to the end of 1999. See: Prekerowa, op. cit. Xx236 ( talk) 13:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Regarding this change: Should we state Żegota was under-funded? 19:07, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
The Provisional Committee conducted its operations on a very limited scale, as it lacked broad public support. It received a very small subsidy – practically a token sum – of 50,000 zlotys per month from the Delegate of the Government-in-Exile. The Committee assumed responsibility for 180 Jews in hiding (mostly children), 90 of whom were in Warsaw. Aid was extended to a dozen people in Cracow, and three children were brought from there to Warsaw. The average subsidy was 500 zlotys per person per month. It was by no means a large sum, nor could it even assure a minimal existence, but in any event it did help those in need. In special cases, such as impoverishment due to extortion, or if public or cultural leaders were involved, larger grants were provided. There were also instances, however, in which the Council, plagued by financial difficulties due to the tremendous increase in the number of the needy, was compelled to reduce the average monthly grants to 300-400 zlotys per person. Due to the pressure and urgent demands of the Council, the Delegation raised its monthly remittance from 50,000 to 150,000 zlotys, and later to 300,000- 400,000 zlotys and more. Yet even this amount was merely a drop in the bucket. The Council could not expand the scope of its activities until July 1943 when the Jewish organizations – the Jewish National Committee and the Bund – began to receive relief funds sent directly from abroad. After the liquidation of the ghetto, in the latter half of 1943 and in 1944, when the number of those requiring assistance increased, the Council’s budget was again greatly augmented http://www.yadvashem.org/righteous/resources/zegota-in-occupied-poland.html
Peter K Burian ( talk) 12:29, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- ^ Winstone, Martin (2014). The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi rule in Poland under the General Government. London: Tauris. pp. 181–182. ISBN 978-1-78076-477-1.
Moreover, within the narrative of Polish assistance to Jews in the public space surrounding the MHPJ, there is no mention of the significant participation of Jews in Żegota, nor is there any information about their involvement in the much more extensive rescue of Jews outside of Żegota. There is nothing about funding Żegota with the money of American, British, and Palestinian Jews. There is no information about how often the money – transferred to occupied Poland via the Polish underground state channels – never reached Żegota or were paid to Żegota in Polish zlotys, according to the official German rate instead of the much higher black market one.14 There is no trace of the reflections of Jan Karski, which I quoted above. There is no trace of Irena Sendler’s explicit objection to being used as an instrument of the Polish politics of memory- it would seem that per Janicka Zegota has become an item in modern memory politics. [6]
Then, there is the question of the Council for Aid to Jews (Żegota), which was establishedand exploited by the Polish Underground State for propaganda and financial purposes. At the same time, its organizational possibilities were restricted and, with them, its scope for action (Urynowicz, 2009). From the Museum’s explanation, we learn that both Żegota and the Jewish National Committee (Żydowski Komitet Narodowy, ŻKN) were co-financed by the Polish government-in-exile, whereas in reality it was the other way around. The money from Jewish organizations was only partly forwarded to Żegota and the ŻKN. The rest subsidized the coffers of the Polish administration. There is no information about how often the money – transferred to occupied Poland via Polish Underground State channels – failed to reach Żegota for other than objective reasons or was paid to Żegota in Polish zlotys according to the official German rate instead of the much higher black market rate.[7]
A small amount of funding came from the Polish government- in-exile in London and was channeled through the Warsaw Delegatura (its representative in the underground) and from a newly established organization called Zegota, a Polish committee to help Jews. The largest donations, however, came from Jewish organizations abroad: the American Joint Distribution Committee, the Jewish Labor .... [9]
Elżbieta Janicka is a historian of literature, cultural anthropologist, photographer, MA at the Université Paris VII Denis Diderot (1994); PhD at Warsaw University (2004). Author of the following books: Sztuka czy Naród? Monografia pisarska Andrzeja Trzebińskiego [Art or the Nation? On Andrzej Trzebiński’s Literary Output] (Kraków: Universitas, 2006) and Festung Warschau (Warsaw: Krytyka Polityczna, 2011), an analysis of the symbolic topography of the former area of the Warsaw Ghetto. Currently working at the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Literary Research of the Polish Academy of Sciences.per Holocaust Studies: A Journal of Culture and History - yet another peer reviewed journal who published her work. You should strike your BLP violating stmt that this esteemed academic is not a historian. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:23, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: others (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: others (
link)
Exchange on possible error with Legobot |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
François Robere, just to let you know that the RfC shows up in a bizarre fashion on both RfC pages (and the links to here don't work). I tried to fix but as it is bot-controlled, I thought I might do more harm than good. Pincrete ( talk) 21:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Update: Links to here seem to be working now. Pincrete ( talk) 23:42, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
|
The WP:STABLE version is clearly from 13:07, 22 August 2018 - which sat undisturbed for 3 months. Please follow WP:BRD and discuss as opposed to reverting en-masse changes contested by multiple editors. Specifically, I contest the following changes:
"undo change which was made w/o consensus. Undue and can't say it in Wikipedia voice. Remove communist source, reorder for readabiity". Unclear what lack of consensus this refers to. Sendler's views on the organization she ran a significant section of are clearly DUE. The reordering does not seem to improve readability (it does hamper understanding the change), and contrary to the edit summary (of "just reordering" and removal) - content sourced to marginal Polish state funded sources (which is contradicted by mainstream sources) was inserted. The removal of Krakowski seems to be justified in the edit summary as
"communist source"- charge made towards a WP:BDP with little substantiation or - for that matter relevance (even if this were true - so what?) - this is a book chapter published by Rutgers University Press in 2003, and edited by Joshua D. Zimmerman - the author is a noted historian. As of 2003 (the date of publication), neither Krakowski, Zimmerman, or Rutgers University Press were "communist".
"restore sourced"- unclear from when this was restored. This is a sourced to a state-funded publication for schoolchildren, which is not a scientific publication. The source is also non-English, and given that we have much higher quality English sources (actual scientific publications) - per WP:NOENG - they should be preferred
Please discuss. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Research at the IPN differs from academic work in several respects (Behr, 2011). First, researchers do not only conduct scientific projects; they are also required to take part in educational and public outreach initiatives such as exhibitions, short publications designed for lay readers and youth (like the monthly IPN bulletin), websites, and even board games. The purpose of this deliberately synthetic history, reduced to a playful and attractive format, begs the question: does it seek to popularize knowledge about the past, or to turn it into a political tool?. Behr, Valentin. "Historical policy-making in post-1989 Poland: a sociological approach to the narratives of communism." European Politics and Society 18.1 (2017): 81-95.. It would be one thing if we were discussion a work by an IPN researcher that purports to be scientific (e.g. "Pamiec i Sprawiedliwosc" (Memory and Justice")) - the IPN Bulletin has no such pretensions. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:57, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 06:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure if the link to pl:Jan Wesołowski (academic) is correct. [17] mentions this name as a director of children's theater. He is also mentioed in [18] whic describes him as a communist, (PPR) and the following sentence suggests he was a Zegota member. Snippet view makes it difficult for me to get full context. A bit more info about this person: [19], [20], [21]. He was a middle level commie party member after the war, d 1993 ( [22]). I will see if I can stub an entry. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:23, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
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After "Żegota's children's section in Warsaw,...." paragraph reinsert a statement removed in 2018 for unknown reason: "The largest cell of Żegota (Felicja) was led by Mieczysław Herling-Grudziński, a wealthy lawyer, who hid 600 Jews (out of the 3,000 helped by Żegota in Warsaw) on his suburban villa in Boernerowo (today Bemowo). [1] Pfajer ( talk) 16:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Pfajer ( talk) 16:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I've restored the statement with a link to Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. [23] There are a lot of sources on this, though not necessarily that are specific to Żegota (which is not a surprise, given that there's a general shortage of research on the organization). I would just mention here this quote by Irena Sendler, which is mentioned by several historians: "łatwiej było ukryć czołg pod dywanem niż jedno dziecko".
Any objections to the statement? François Robere ( talk) 19:29, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
the Germans wouldn't have been able to tell who's a Jew and who isn't without local collaborators.' Most Jews were identified by genealogical records kept by synagogues and churches(for converts), plus a large portion of Jews who lived in Shtetls did stand out from rest of Polish population. Another sign was circumcision which wasn't practised in general by Poles, this made easier for Jewish women to hide than men as noted in Sexual Violence Against Jewish Women During the Holocaust edited by Sonja Maria Hedgepeth, Rochelle G. Saidel A particular physical one is obvious, because in Eastern Europe usually only Jewish men were circumcised page 125. Or in Teaching about the Holocaust and Genocide, Volume 2 University of the State of New York, State Education Department, Bureau of Curriculum Development, 1985, page 283 Hiding boys, he said, was dangerous, as they were circumcised and could be easily detected. or even by Grabowski in Szantażowanie Żydów: casus Warszawy 1939-1945 Przegląd Historyczny 99/4 wyłapywanie mężczyzn (z oczywistych przyczyn) było stosunkowo proste Catching men(for obvious reasons) was relatively simple hence the emergence of szmalcowniks and other snitches among Poles. Poles? Szmalcowniks were very mixed and consisted out of Poles, Germans and Jews.Why exclude the other two?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:18, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
According to a letter by Adolf Berman, the Jewish Secretary of the Zegota, to Teresa Preker(owa), dated Feb. 26, 1977, there were others, especially meritorious in that activity, and he mentioned: Prof. Maria Grzegorzewski, a distinguished theatre artist, Irena Solski, psychologist, Janina Buchholtz-Bukolski (q.v.), Irena Sawicki (q.v.) educator. Further there was Dr. Ewa Rybicki, scouting activist, Irena Kurowski, school principal, Prof. Stanislaw Ossowski and Prof. Maria Ossowski, Dr. Jan Zabinski, zoo director (q.v.) and his wife Antonina, a writer, (q.v.). Still others were Stefania Sempolowski, the unforgettable director of children's theatres, Jan Wesolowski (q.v.) Sylwia Rzeczycki, (q.v.) Maria Laski, Maria Derwisz-Parnowski. Great merits had Zofia Latallo, Zofia Rodziewicz, former Senator, Dr. Regina Fleszar and others. Beside the university educated people there were others, like Waleria Malaczewski, Antonina Roguski, Jadwiga Leszczanin, Zofia Debicki (q.v.). Manual workers were not absent either, like Stanislaw Michalski, tailor, Kajszczak, from Lomianki and Pawel Harmuszko, farmers, Kazimierz Kuc, laborer and many others. Only those who have the letters (q.v.) after their name have been recognized as "Righteous"up to the end of 1999. See: Prekerowa, op. cit. Xx236 ( talk) 13:14, 22 August 2018 (UTC)
Regarding this change: Should we state Żegota was under-funded? 19:07, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
The Provisional Committee conducted its operations on a very limited scale, as it lacked broad public support. It received a very small subsidy – practically a token sum – of 50,000 zlotys per month from the Delegate of the Government-in-Exile. The Committee assumed responsibility for 180 Jews in hiding (mostly children), 90 of whom were in Warsaw. Aid was extended to a dozen people in Cracow, and three children were brought from there to Warsaw. The average subsidy was 500 zlotys per person per month. It was by no means a large sum, nor could it even assure a minimal existence, but in any event it did help those in need. In special cases, such as impoverishment due to extortion, or if public or cultural leaders were involved, larger grants were provided. There were also instances, however, in which the Council, plagued by financial difficulties due to the tremendous increase in the number of the needy, was compelled to reduce the average monthly grants to 300-400 zlotys per person. Due to the pressure and urgent demands of the Council, the Delegation raised its monthly remittance from 50,000 to 150,000 zlotys, and later to 300,000- 400,000 zlotys and more. Yet even this amount was merely a drop in the bucket. The Council could not expand the scope of its activities until July 1943 when the Jewish organizations – the Jewish National Committee and the Bund – began to receive relief funds sent directly from abroad. After the liquidation of the ghetto, in the latter half of 1943 and in 1944, when the number of those requiring assistance increased, the Council’s budget was again greatly augmented http://www.yadvashem.org/righteous/resources/zegota-in-occupied-poland.html
Peter K Burian ( talk) 12:29, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
- ^ Winstone, Martin (2014). The Dark Heart of Hitler's Europe: Nazi rule in Poland under the General Government. London: Tauris. pp. 181–182. ISBN 978-1-78076-477-1.
Moreover, within the narrative of Polish assistance to Jews in the public space surrounding the MHPJ, there is no mention of the significant participation of Jews in Żegota, nor is there any information about their involvement in the much more extensive rescue of Jews outside of Żegota. There is nothing about funding Żegota with the money of American, British, and Palestinian Jews. There is no information about how often the money – transferred to occupied Poland via the Polish underground state channels – never reached Żegota or were paid to Żegota in Polish zlotys, according to the official German rate instead of the much higher black market one.14 There is no trace of the reflections of Jan Karski, which I quoted above. There is no trace of Irena Sendler’s explicit objection to being used as an instrument of the Polish politics of memory- it would seem that per Janicka Zegota has become an item in modern memory politics. [6]
Then, there is the question of the Council for Aid to Jews (Żegota), which was establishedand exploited by the Polish Underground State for propaganda and financial purposes. At the same time, its organizational possibilities were restricted and, with them, its scope for action (Urynowicz, 2009). From the Museum’s explanation, we learn that both Żegota and the Jewish National Committee (Żydowski Komitet Narodowy, ŻKN) were co-financed by the Polish government-in-exile, whereas in reality it was the other way around. The money from Jewish organizations was only partly forwarded to Żegota and the ŻKN. The rest subsidized the coffers of the Polish administration. There is no information about how often the money – transferred to occupied Poland via Polish Underground State channels – failed to reach Żegota for other than objective reasons or was paid to Żegota in Polish zlotys according to the official German rate instead of the much higher black market rate.[7]
A small amount of funding came from the Polish government- in-exile in London and was channeled through the Warsaw Delegatura (its representative in the underground) and from a newly established organization called Zegota, a Polish committee to help Jews. The largest donations, however, came from Jewish organizations abroad: the American Joint Distribution Committee, the Jewish Labor .... [9]
Elżbieta Janicka is a historian of literature, cultural anthropologist, photographer, MA at the Université Paris VII Denis Diderot (1994); PhD at Warsaw University (2004). Author of the following books: Sztuka czy Naród? Monografia pisarska Andrzeja Trzebińskiego [Art or the Nation? On Andrzej Trzebiński’s Literary Output] (Kraków: Universitas, 2006) and Festung Warschau (Warsaw: Krytyka Polityczna, 2011), an analysis of the symbolic topography of the former area of the Warsaw Ghetto. Currently working at the Institute of Slavic Studies of the Polish Academy of Sciences and the Institute of Literary Research of the Polish Academy of Sciences.per Holocaust Studies: A Journal of Culture and History - yet another peer reviewed journal who published her work. You should strike your BLP violating stmt that this esteemed academic is not a historian. Icewhiz ( talk) 15:23, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
References
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: others (
link)
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: others (
link)
Exchange on possible error with Legobot |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
François Robere, just to let you know that the RfC shows up in a bizarre fashion on both RfC pages (and the links to here don't work). I tried to fix but as it is bot-controlled, I thought I might do more harm than good. Pincrete ( talk) 21:08, 20 June 2018 (UTC) Update: Links to here seem to be working now. Pincrete ( talk) 23:42, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
|
The WP:STABLE version is clearly from 13:07, 22 August 2018 - which sat undisturbed for 3 months. Please follow WP:BRD and discuss as opposed to reverting en-masse changes contested by multiple editors. Specifically, I contest the following changes:
"undo change which was made w/o consensus. Undue and can't say it in Wikipedia voice. Remove communist source, reorder for readabiity". Unclear what lack of consensus this refers to. Sendler's views on the organization she ran a significant section of are clearly DUE. The reordering does not seem to improve readability (it does hamper understanding the change), and contrary to the edit summary (of "just reordering" and removal) - content sourced to marginal Polish state funded sources (which is contradicted by mainstream sources) was inserted. The removal of Krakowski seems to be justified in the edit summary as
"communist source"- charge made towards a WP:BDP with little substantiation or - for that matter relevance (even if this were true - so what?) - this is a book chapter published by Rutgers University Press in 2003, and edited by Joshua D. Zimmerman - the author is a noted historian. As of 2003 (the date of publication), neither Krakowski, Zimmerman, or Rutgers University Press were "communist".
"restore sourced"- unclear from when this was restored. This is a sourced to a state-funded publication for schoolchildren, which is not a scientific publication. The source is also non-English, and given that we have much higher quality English sources (actual scientific publications) - per WP:NOENG - they should be preferred
Please discuss. Icewhiz ( talk) 08:17, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
Research at the IPN differs from academic work in several respects (Behr, 2011). First, researchers do not only conduct scientific projects; they are also required to take part in educational and public outreach initiatives such as exhibitions, short publications designed for lay readers and youth (like the monthly IPN bulletin), websites, and even board games. The purpose of this deliberately synthetic history, reduced to a playful and attractive format, begs the question: does it seek to popularize knowledge about the past, or to turn it into a political tool?. Behr, Valentin. "Historical policy-making in post-1989 Poland: a sociological approach to the narratives of communism." European Politics and Society 18.1 (2017): 81-95.. It would be one thing if we were discussion a work by an IPN researcher that purports to be scientific (e.g. "Pamiec i Sprawiedliwosc" (Memory and Justice")) - the IPN Bulletin has no such pretensions. Icewhiz ( talk) 11:57, 28 November 2018 (UTC)
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. — Community Tech bot ( talk) 06:35, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
I am not sure if the link to pl:Jan Wesołowski (academic) is correct. [17] mentions this name as a director of children's theater. He is also mentioed in [18] whic describes him as a communist, (PPR) and the following sentence suggests he was a Zegota member. Snippet view makes it difficult for me to get full context. A bit more info about this person: [19], [20], [21]. He was a middle level commie party member after the war, d 1993 ( [22]). I will see if I can stub an entry. -- Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 14:23, 7 January 2020 (UTC)
![]() | This
edit request to
Żegota has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
After "Żegota's children's section in Warsaw,...." paragraph reinsert a statement removed in 2018 for unknown reason: "The largest cell of Żegota (Felicja) was led by Mieczysław Herling-Grudziński, a wealthy lawyer, who hid 600 Jews (out of the 3,000 helped by Żegota in Warsaw) on his suburban villa in Boernerowo (today Bemowo). [1] Pfajer ( talk) 16:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
Pfajer ( talk) 16:26, 17 January 2021 (UTC)
References
I've restored the statement with a link to Collaboration in German-occupied Poland. [23] There are a lot of sources on this, though not necessarily that are specific to Żegota (which is not a surprise, given that there's a general shortage of research on the organization). I would just mention here this quote by Irena Sendler, which is mentioned by several historians: "łatwiej było ukryć czołg pod dywanem niż jedno dziecko".
Any objections to the statement? François Robere ( talk) 19:29, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
the Germans wouldn't have been able to tell who's a Jew and who isn't without local collaborators.' Most Jews were identified by genealogical records kept by synagogues and churches(for converts), plus a large portion of Jews who lived in Shtetls did stand out from rest of Polish population. Another sign was circumcision which wasn't practised in general by Poles, this made easier for Jewish women to hide than men as noted in Sexual Violence Against Jewish Women During the Holocaust edited by Sonja Maria Hedgepeth, Rochelle G. Saidel A particular physical one is obvious, because in Eastern Europe usually only Jewish men were circumcised page 125. Or in Teaching about the Holocaust and Genocide, Volume 2 University of the State of New York, State Education Department, Bureau of Curriculum Development, 1985, page 283 Hiding boys, he said, was dangerous, as they were circumcised and could be easily detected. or even by Grabowski in Szantażowanie Żydów: casus Warszawy 1939-1945 Przegląd Historyczny 99/4 wyłapywanie mężczyzn (z oczywistych przyczyn) było stosunkowo proste Catching men(for obvious reasons) was relatively simple hence the emergence of szmalcowniks and other snitches among Poles. Poles? Szmalcowniks were very mixed and consisted out of Poles, Germans and Jews.Why exclude the other two?-- MyMoloboaccount ( talk) 22:18, 27 July 2020 (UTC)