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I don't see any reason to have a dental diacritic for Sanskrit. Spanish dental plosives, for example, are transcribed at Wikipedia without them because it would be redundant. Is there some contrast between dental and alveolar that I'm not aware of? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 12:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
eː ए, पे e between yell and Yale
Isn't the vowel in "steer" or "beer" much more accurate than the current explanation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.255.182.142 ( talk) 13:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Is the long low vowel really back [ɑː]? I would expect it to be central or even front. — Eru· tuon 02:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Xyzzyva created the page way back in 2010, apparently based on Help:IPA for Hindi and Urdu. Strangely, the version of the Hindi-Urdu page that existed at the same time didn't have /ɑː/ in it, so I'm not sure where it came from. — Eru· tuon 07:37, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Every single page about Sanskrit and Hindi in wiki and also different scientific resources use different sound transcriptions.
E.g.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A
/info/en/?search=Ca_%28Indic%29#Devanagari_script
/info/en/?search=Devanagari#Consonants
What are the actual sound values of these letters? Is there more reliable resource on Sanskrit IPA than
http://www.sanskritweb.net/deutsch/ipa_sans.pdf — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
95.54.226.38 (
talk)
02:55, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Found this helpful audio file at Hindustani phonology ( diff's version at retrieval) for pronunciation, with IAST & IPA. It does not contain audio for all the consonants, but only for plosives and affricatives.
These audio files seem relevant for discussion about 'retroflex Vs dental' in Help talk:IPA for Hindi and Urdu's talk page here & also here.
I think, a person with Hindi as L1 might use the same pronunciation for these consonants in Sanskrit too, so this audio file may be helpful for the other non-Hindi speakers to learn Hindi & Sanskrit pronunciation. Thanks, by User 2know4power ( talk) 02:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC).
May be people who know Sanskrit could, please take a look at this: audio files for 'stop consonants' in Hindi pronunciation, & say if they can be used for the pronunciation of 'stop consonants' in Sanskrit too?. Thanks in advance, by User 2know4power ( talk) 19:07, 16 January 2017 (UTC).
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
There is one source cited here, which does seem to be reliable. Why then are does the page not consistently use the IPA provided in the source? These should either be made consistent, or other sources provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaav ( talk • contribs) 07:16, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Not impossible because it wasn't actually syllabic by Classical times, but a (retroflex?) flap followed by /i/. But people transcribe it as syllabic 'r' etc. regardless. — kwami ( talk) 01:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree that it should be consistent. If the source is inaccurate, we should find another more accurate source. Currently, the transcription shows र as [r], which is a trill. This seems counter to any source or anecdotal evidence (which would suggest it should be [ɾ] or an alveolar flap). Getsnoopy ( talk) 21:38, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
I went through all the Sanskrit transcriptions to remove the dental diacritics and to conform transcriptions to what's at this chart. While I changed all instances of [ʃ] to [ɕ], and instances of [tɕ] and [dʐ] to [ʃ] and [dʒ] respectively, I wonder if we shouldn't be more consistent. What do people think? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:49, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
Someone asked me to check the table after an editor gave it an eastern (Oriya/Bangla) pronunciation. I restored it to Classical pronunciation as best I could. But that meant changing some longstanding transcriptions, such as the 'syllabic' r and l being transcribed as actual syllabic consonants. According to our Vedic Sanskrit article, these had broken by Classical times. (Unfortunately, it's a bit difficult to tell when that article is describing Vedic and when Classical pronunciation.) Also made <r> retroflex, the diphthongs <ai, au> > [ai, au] (unless I'm misreading that and they should be [əi, əu]), removed the retroflex el, etc.
We could have two columns, Vedic and Classical, if people like. But otherwise, given that we use stress rather than tone, IMO we should stick to Classical. — kwami ( talk) 01:38, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Erutuon:, @ Mr KEBAB:, @ Peter238:, @ Aeusoes1: If y'all think the table is okay, I'll use AWB change the transclusions to match. We should decide about the preceding question too, & also whether I messed up and the <a> in [ai, au] in our Vedic article was supposed to be the same as plain <a> = [ə]. — kwami ( talk) 02:59, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
As for our source, Zieba & Stiehl, they don't say what they mean by 'original'. Sanskrit has a long history. The transcription of ऐ as [aːi] would be Vedic, but then ए should be [ai], right? They also have [x] for visarga. Was that also Vedic? I understand that there were Vedic allophones of visarga such as [ɸ].
I do think centralized [ɐ] for the inherent vowel seems more likely than mid [ə], though. — kwami ( talk) 18:14, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I took the stress off काल, as it seemed dubious it would be on the 2nd syllable. — kwami ( talk)
: incategory:"Sanskrit lemmas" intitle:/ञ/
on Wiktionary. That could be predictable since it's after a palatal obstruent, but I don't know. —
Eru·
tuon
20:17, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I also wonder about tatsama. Is that t+s, or a modern pronunciation of c? — kwami ( talk)
Syllabic r of Sanskrit is here given 'ri' as its IPA value, but it is known very well that it is true only for Hindi and other modern Indo-aryan languages. For Sanskrit it is syllabic, as its name suggests. [1] Not in a single wikipedia page, it is 'ri'. [2] [3] It seems the page to be a copy from Hindi IPA page with several edits. I am replacing 'ri' with syllabic r and I don't think that such a well known fact should be more ignored anymore, as my last edit was reverted and I don't expect this to be repeated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashutosh Jha ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I was going off our articles, so you'd need to check the sources there. One is Tiwari ([1955] 2005), which describes the changes from Vedic to Classical. Remember, this IPA key is for Classical, not Vedic. As of two minutes ago, our Vedic article stated the following. How much of this is Tiwari and how much might be OR I dont't know.
The pronunciations of syllabic [r̩] (ऋ) and [l̩] (ऌ) and their long counterparts [r̩ː] (ॠ) and [l̩ː] (ॡ) no longer retained their pure pronunciations, but had started to be pronounced as short and long [ri] (रि) and [li] (ल्रि) during the decline of Sanskrit. It partly varies by region like in southern India, including Maharashtra, people will pronounce ऋ as ru (रु)and ऌ as lru (ल्रु), this is pronounced according to Taittiriya Pratishakya of the Taittiriya Shakha or branch of the Yajur Veda. Virtually no region pronounces as would in vedic Sanskrit generally. Only while reciting Vedas is it normally heard. But if the Pratishakhya, i.e. the pronunciation manual, mandates it otherwise, the latter is followed.
I checked out the sources in our Sanskrit article that I could access, and Goldman & Goldman (2002) says that the <ṛ> is pronounced like the ri in "rig", which supports our Vedic article and what I had changed this key to last year.
In any case, it would be foolish for our IPA guide to contradict our articles on Sanskrit. Start a discussion on changing the phonology/phonetics sections of those articles per best sources, and if people agree on a change, then change this key to match. But don't do it backwards.
IMO, as I said in the previous thread, we really should have a consensus source to go off of, rather than reverting each other based on whatever source we happened to read yesterday. For a living language we can look for expert phonetic descriptions, but that's not going to work for liturgical and artificial ones. — kwami ( talk) 05:52, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
BTW, the Whitney grammar Ashutosh used as a ref to support the retention of Vedic pronunciation in Classical (which AFAICT it never addresses) was published in 1879 and is scarcely intelligible. For one thing, it says the 'syllabic' ar is "untrilled". Does that mean it's [ɹ] as in General American English? Regardless, it contradicts Ashutosh's change to a syllabic trill.
I removed the 'syllabic' els. The short one only occurs in the single verb klp 'to fit', and so is extremely unlikely to ever be linked to this key (we can always add it if it is), while the long one doesn't occur at all. — kwami ( talk) 08:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Use ⟨r̩⟩ if the actual pronunciation is unknown, just like we use ⟨r⟩ for English [ɹ]. Even if the actual pronunciation wasn't syllabic (but rather a sequence of a consonant and a vowel, or the other way around), it wouldn't be unprecedented to transcribe it as such. For instance, some sources use ⟨r̩⟩ for what surfaces as [əɾ] in Slovene (and it's actually a better transcription, AFAICS - at least as far as phonemics are concerned. But this isn't Help:IPA/Slovene). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) ( talk) 15:25, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
r̥ and r̥̄ are metrically short and long and bear different pitches, but they are phonetically combinations of vowel and consonant segments: r flanked by very short segments which have different vowel colors in different dialects. In the dialect Śaunaka represents, r̥ consists of a consonantal segment r – produced either at the roots of the teeth or the alveolae – flanked by segments ă (one-fourth of a mora) which are produced further forward than a due to the tongue positioning for r: ără. This accords with the statement that r̥ has the same place of production as velar (jihvāmūlīya) stops k and so on – in contrast to a, said to be produced further back – and with the R̥gvedaprātiśākhya order of vowels: r̥ follows a ā. There is also evidence that r̥ was pronounced ĕrĕ and ĭrĭ. In descriptions where the place of the consonantal segment is assigned to r̥, both this vowel and r are said to be retroflex elements. Modern pronunciations of r̥ vary; e.g. ri in the midlands, ru in the southwest.
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I can't understand why the edits are reverted again and again. All the grammar books, whether traditional and modern, states that it is a syllabic vowel. But it is again and again being reverted to 'ɽi'. If it is pronounced so today, that doesn't mean it is it's original pronunciation. As श is pronounced nowadays as ʃ, but it's original pronunciation is ɕ. Even if in classical Sanskrit, it was 'ri', we must be nuetral. In English, the most common pronunciation of 'r' is 'ɹ', but it is transcribed as 'r'. To stay consistent with the script, we must follow 'ɹ̩' or 'ɹ', and even r̩ and r are acceptable. But noway, it could be ri. It not confuses the reader, but also makes it hazardous for the Sanskrit literature, mostly in verse, as they are set in prosodic meter which is very sensitive to the length of the vowel, as 'ri' will make previous consonant conjunct, making that syllable heavy Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
r̥ and r̥̄ are metrically short and long and bear different pitches, but they are phonetically combinations of vowel and consonant segments: r flanked by very short segments which have different vowel colors in different dialects. In the dialect Śaunaka represents, r̥ consists of a consonantal segment r – produced either at the roots of the teeth or the alveolae – flanked by segments ă (one-fourth of a mora) which are produced further forward than a due to the tongue positioning for r: ără. This accords with the statement that r̥ has the same place of production as velar (jihvāmūlīya) stops k and so on – in contrast to a, said to be produced further back – and with the R̥gvedaprātiśākhya order of vowels: r̥ follows a ā. There is also evidence that r̥ was pronounced ĕrĕ and ĭrĭ. In descriptions where the place of the consonantal segment is assigned to r̥, both this vowel and r are said to be retroflex elements. Modern pronunciations of r̥ vary; e.g. ri in the midlands, ru in the southwest.
Yes, it is a good point, but the source clearly says that, Modern pronunciations of r̥ vary; e.g. ri in the midlands, ru in the southwest. see, it says ′Modern Pronunciation′. About Classical or Earlier pronunciation, it says, flanked by segments ă (one-fourth of a mora) which are produced further forward than a due to the tongue positioning for r: ără. This accords with the statement that r̥ has the same place of production as velar (jihvāmūlīya) stops k and so on – in contrast to a, said to be produced further back – and with the R̥gvedaprātiśākhya order of vowels: r̥ follows a ā. There is also evidence that r̥ was pronounced ĕrĕ and ĭrĭ. Can you assert any one transcription to ′r̥ ′? As it has several transcriptions, not one, ără or ĕrĕ or ĭrĭ. And none of them could be added as the IPA key, it is not suitable. ′ɹ̩′ or ′r̩′ is its common transcription. it clears 'ri' transcription is never suitable, as it is modern pronunciation. The pronunciations ără or ĕrĕ or ĭrĭ could be true, but it is secondary pronunciation. Originally it is indeed syllabic. And you can't assign thse in transcription. And about 'ri', it is not even uniform, it is 'ru' in southern parts. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 10:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Initially I had made the same edits as you did. I had too used 'r' instead of alveolar approximant. But, it was reverted and they said that it was an untrilled approximant. I was intolerant to the transcription 'ri', and I wanted to change it to syllabic. So, I had only one option, to transcribe it as alveolar approximant. So, I did it. However, Iam not sure that is it approximant or a tap. I have no problem. But I wanted syllabic transcription, as the sources suggest. You can see it above in this section, that I had initially transcribed it as r, but I was said to transcribe it as alveolar approximant. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Many times, my edits are being reverted, without any reason. And the reason given here is that, it must be discussed. If we have all the sources, it is known to every person being concerned to the language, why discussion is needed. And about 'r̥', I can't understand, what's the problem? All the grammar books, whether traditional and modern, states that it is a syllabic vowel. But it is again and again being reverted to 'ɽi'. If it is pronounced so today, that doesn't mean it is it's original pronunciation. As श is pronounced nowadays as ʃ, but it's original pronunciation is ɕ. Even if in classical Sanskrit, it was 'ri', we must be nuetral. In English, the most common pronunciation of 'r' is 'ɹ', but it is transcribed as 'r'. To stay consistent with the script, we must follow 'ɹ̩' or 'ɹ', and even r̩ and r are acceptable. But noway, it could be ri. It not confuses the reader, but also makes it hazardous for the Sanskrit literature, mostly in verse, as they are set in prosodic meter which is very sensitive to the length of the vowel, as 'ri' will make previous consonant conjunct, making that syllable heavy. And, the other edits. I have added a note to coronal consonants, that they are dental, but originally may have been alveolar. I've changed r to ɹ, and of course ready to discuss on that. Added other pronunciation of Visarga, we could add it in a note, it could be discussed. And also, changed the text 'Classical Sanskrit' to just 'Sanskrit' to make the IPA key broader, as the page is named 'Help:IPA/Sanskrit', not Classical Sanskrit. In short, I'm ready for any discussion, instead of the pronunciation of syllabic r as 'ri'. I'm afraid, if this behaviour is not going to stop, no further information could be put on it. It's not the single page, where it is done. I hope, this is not going to repeat. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 19:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
An allophone of [e] and [o] after [e] and [o] respectivelydoesn't make any sense. I was under the impression the sound in question, ɐ, is simply just short a.
An allophone of [e] and [o] after [e] and [o] respectivelymakes perfect sense: just think of the language not liking [ee] and [oo] clusters. And as for [ɽi], as clear from the section above, there's absolutely no reason why we should continue to be using that. – Uanfala (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Ignore all my arguments, but please give me the reason of maintaining the transcription of 'ṛ' as 'ri'. It seems you have not read the previous section [ of Syllabic r in Sanskrit|]. I have cleared all the arguments. For my other edits, I'm surely ready for discussion in the talk page. I'm now only changing the transcriptipn for 'ṛ,ṝ and ḷ' and going to correct formatting, and I'll make any further edit only after discussion, such as notes on Visarga, or on allophones of 'ɐ'. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 16:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Uanfala, since the North American pronunciation was used for consonants like ɖ why not the Australian pronunciation for /ɐ/ and /a:/? AE has /ɐ/ but NAE doesnt have [ʈ, ɖ] etc and words with /kʂ, tr, ɟɲ, ɕr/ are common so why not those? ऌ was also the short version of ॡ so it should be /l̩/ AleksiB 1945 ( talk) 20:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Aeusoes1, why? as i said in the summary 1) most people (if some do) dont pronounce canyon with a [ɲ] or ahead with a [ɦ] its either [n] or [nʲ] for canyon and [h] for ahead 2) burnt has a partial retroflex n only in rhotic accents, even the rhotic accents dont have a pure [ɳ] 3) t in stable or table isnt retroflex in any of the dialects 4) ch in chew is aspirated and c/ch are distinguished in sanskrit, how is the inaccurate? AleksiB 1945 ( talk) 21:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
इ is listed as [ɪ] while ई is listed as [i:]. Similarly, उ is given as [ʊ] and ऊ as [u:]. This is demonstrably untrue. They have the same vowel quality. इ is [i] and ई is [i:], same with उ [u] and ऊ [u:]. Panini establishes this in the Astadhyayi. अ and आ do differ in vowel quality as well as length and due to how Panini formulates his rules he has to account for this fact. The sandhi rule for joining like vowels is formulated thus: When two homogeneous vowels meet (two vowels with the same quality, irrespective of length), replace them both with one long homogeneous vowel. So इ/ई + इ/ई will become one ई. However, as अ and आ differ slightly in pronunciation this creates a problem, as they are not technically homogeneous. Panini has to work around this fact in the Astadhyayi to allow अ/आ + अ/आ to yield आ, first pretending at the onset of the rules that they were homogeneous, then in the very last verse resetting अ to its normal pronunciation. He does not do this with any other vowels but treats इ/ई and उ/ऊ as identical in pronunciation with no problems. Nor does the Paniniya Shiksha mention any difference in vowel quality between them, only अ and आ. Verse: अ अ । (Ast. 8.4.68)
As for ए, ऐ, ओ, and औ, Panini and the Pratishakhyas disagree slightly. According to Panini, ए is one half matra in the throat and one and a half on the palate (so closer to [ɐi:]) and ओ is one half matra in the throat and one and a half on the lips (so like [ɐu:]). The Pratishakhyas disagreed and said that they each have one place of articulation which two matras (thus [e:] and [o:]). They are in agreement regarding ऐ and औ. Both assert that ए is one matra in the throat and one on the palate [ai] and औ is one in the throat and one on the lips [au]. Both Panini and the Pratishakhyas are quite old, so in my opinion either pronunciation of ए/ओ is acceptable. Verse: अर्धमात्रा तु कण्ठ्यस्य एकारौकारयोर्भवेत् । ऐकारौकारयोर्मात्रा तयोर्विवृतसंवृतम् ॥ (PS. 19)
Transcribing ऋ as [r̩] is a bit puzzling. The description of the sound is correct, but I don't see why it should be regarded as a syllabic consonant at all and not a true vowel, as according to the Shiksha it is अस्पृष्टः (untouched). It approaches the place of articulation of र् but does not make contact. That many modern Indian languages pronounce it as ri or ru is unsurprising, given that even in Classical Sanskrit ऋ is a weak vowel that tends to make this change in some derivations, such as कृ becoming क्रियते and कुरुते. Also many roots which end in long ॠ tend to change to ईर् (as in तीर्यते from तॄ) or ऊर् (as in पूरयति from पॄ). As for ऌ, there was again some disagreement. Some grammarians simply didn't recognize it as a vowel, some regarded it as an untouched (अस्पृष्टः) vowel, and some as more like a syllabic ल् that was touched (which might explain why some did not regard it as a vowel at all). Verse: अचोऽस्पृष्टा यणस्त्वीषन्नेमस्पृष्टाः शलः स्मृताः । शेषाः स्पृष्टा हलः प्रोक्ता निबोधानुप्रदानतः ॥ (PS. 38)
As for र्, many places of articulation are given. Panini regards it as a cerebral and does not recognize the alveolar place of articulation at all, placing र् further back in the mouth than the Spanish r, for example. However, the Pratishakhyas gave various places of articulation for it. Some considered it dental, alveolar, or even velar. But the Paninian pronunciation is more like [ɽ]. Verse: अष्टौ स्थानानि वर्णानामुरःकण्ठः शिरस्तथा । जिह्वामूलं च दन्ताश्च नासिकोष्ठौ च तालु च ॥ (PS. 13)
The source provided is filled with many other errors and should not be regarded as accurate at all. The stress rule it gives is simply nonexistent. It states that Vedic pitch accent is unpredictable (which is true) but then says that there is a stress accent present in Classical Sanskrit which follows a rule. However, the rule it gives does not exist in Sanskrit. It is the Latin stress rule that western scholars adopted for Sanskrit as a matter of convention, but it has never been true for Sanskrit. In fact, stress accent in Sanskrit is a rather inconsequential thing for which there does not exist any simple rule at all. Furthermore, it states many false things about the anusvara. There is a long-standing conflation of the terms anusvara, anunasika, and rangavarna that has confused many people. The anusvara is not a nasalization of the vowel, it is a nasal sound pronounced after the vowel. Hence it is referred to in the old grammatical literature by its full name "अनुस्वारनासिक्यः" literally meaning "nasal sound after the vowel". According to the Paniniya shiksha and the Pratishakhyas, the anusvara (along with the yamas) has only the nose as its place of articulation, not the nose and mouth as it would be in a nasalized vowel. Thus it is a "pure nasal" sound in which the sound is uttered directly and entirely from the nose. The term "anunasika" has also lead to confusion. Panini only uses it to mean any nasal sound. Indeed, the nasal consonants are called the anunasika consonants, but people have gotten confused by the term thinking it too means a nasalized vowel. However, that is not how Panini uses the term. The nasalization of a vowel is called the रङ्गवर्णः in the Shiksha. Verse: अनुस्वारयमानां च नासिका स्थानमुच्यते । (PS. 22a)
Another egregious error is transcribing the original pronunciation of the visarga as [x] which is absurd. [x] is the जिह्वामूलीयः (literally meaning "root of the tongue") which is a breath restricted by the back of the tongue and occurring as an allophone of the visarga when followed by प् or फ्. The unvoiced visarga [h] is contrasted with the voiced hakara [ɦ]. Some regarded the hakara as only being half voiced, but in either case, it is in the throat when followed by a vowel and in the chest when combined with a nonvowel. Verse: हकारं पञ्चमैर्युक्तमन्तःस्थाभिश्चसंयुतम् । औरस्यं तं विजानीयात्कण्ठ्यमाहुरसंयुतम् । (PS. 16) 2607:D580:162:BB00:EC0A:B4B7:C8BC:BDAE ( talk) 07:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
@ 1Firang: There is no consensus in Help:IPA/Hindi_and_Urdu. You have just kept on adding your changes with "brute force" without consensus. So please don't change anything before reaching a genuine consensus (not just among you and yourself). Stop your edit spree and read Help:IPA and some introductory books about IPA and phonetics first. Competence is required. Austronesier ( talk) 14:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
Kwamikagami replaced...etc. You are the one who wants to introduce changes here. Kwamikagami and I have merely salvaged the last good verion. And don't forget to explain your changes (onus, remember?). "More appropriate" and "unacceptable" is not enough. – Austronesier ( talk) 18:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
You might have a point about adding a note to the existing key word (not replacing it) about th-stopping", so please let me know if you agree with the addition of "(with th-stopping)" after "the" for the approximation for द, with another approximation being "other, or adding "(but dental)" after the "do" that we have as the approximation for द at present, as the IPA for that is "ð" and adding "(but dental)" after the approximation "redhead" for the Sanskrit alphabet ध as it will become ढ otherwise.- 1Firang ( talk) 04:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
The rest is mostly nonsense".- 1Firang ( talk) 04:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
repetitive,
WP:BLUDGEON
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I will answer only two points now the rest to follow later. Don't make change unilateral changes until then:
the "p" in "pan" is not plosive, this is plainly wrong.
More later. – Austronesier ( talk) 07:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
the "k" in "kin" is not plosiveis wrong.
More to come. – Austronesier ( talk) 18:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami and Austronesier: At the moment, we have;-
Consonants | |||
---|---|---|---|
IPA | Nagari | IAST | English approximation |
d | द | d | width |
ɖ | ड | ḍ | (American)bird |
The "d" in bird and width are not pronounced differently as per the chart above (copied from the Help IPA Sanskrit page) but they should be, which is why I am trying to change the "width" as an approximation.- 1Firang ( talk) 03:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The rest is mostly nonsense".- 1Firang ( talk) 15:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami: With this revert, you changed "ado (but dental)" to "width"as an approximation for the Indic alphabet द but it is wrong, while the original approximation that was there (ado) is correct, so please self revert your edit or provide a reliable source for the same.- 1Firang ( talk) 10:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
I won't try to edit because there are too many of them but why are those alternative pronunciations for the diphthongs inserted here and even described as being Classical Skt. when they are distinctly NIA (raising the first element of ai to /ɛ~e/, /ɔ~o/ for au, which can only be explained as monophthongization. Interestingly, that's exactly what happens in NIA) and what's more, not a single source is given. BidensHyperborea ( talk) 11:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Why is the example for the dental plosive /t/ "eighth," with just the t highlighted? Most dialects pronounce "eighth" as [eɪθ]. Wouldn't a better example be something like "stop"? Some dialects pronounce /th/ as an allophone of t, but in those cases it's always aspirated as a [tʰ]. ForestAngel ( talk) 04:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
The article now says that Classical Sanskrit had a predictable stess pattern. But in the above topic 'Many mistakes' someone says that this is just something invented by western scholars as a matter of convention. I am actually very inclined to believe this, unless someone can give a good source for this stress pattern. Exarchus ( talk) 10:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)
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I don't see any reason to have a dental diacritic for Sanskrit. Spanish dental plosives, for example, are transcribed at Wikipedia without them because it would be redundant. Is there some contrast between dental and alveolar that I'm not aware of? — Ƶ§œš¹ [ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ] 12:44, 15 March 2012 (UTC)
eː ए, पे e between yell and Yale
Isn't the vowel in "steer" or "beer" much more accurate than the current explanation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.255.182.142 ( talk) 13:04, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
Is the long low vowel really back [ɑː]? I would expect it to be central or even front. — Eru· tuon 02:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)
Xyzzyva created the page way back in 2010, apparently based on Help:IPA for Hindi and Urdu. Strangely, the version of the Hindi-Urdu page that existed at the same time didn't have /ɑː/ in it, so I'm not sure where it came from. — Eru· tuon 07:37, 10 March 2015 (UTC)
Every single page about Sanskrit and Hindi in wiki and also different scientific resources use different sound transcriptions.
E.g.
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%9A
/info/en/?search=Ca_%28Indic%29#Devanagari_script
/info/en/?search=Devanagari#Consonants
What are the actual sound values of these letters? Is there more reliable resource on Sanskrit IPA than
http://www.sanskritweb.net/deutsch/ipa_sans.pdf — Preceding
unsigned comment added by
95.54.226.38 (
talk)
02:55, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
Found this helpful audio file at Hindustani phonology ( diff's version at retrieval) for pronunciation, with IAST & IPA. It does not contain audio for all the consonants, but only for plosives and affricatives.
These audio files seem relevant for discussion about 'retroflex Vs dental' in Help talk:IPA for Hindi and Urdu's talk page here & also here.
I think, a person with Hindi as L1 might use the same pronunciation for these consonants in Sanskrit too, so this audio file may be helpful for the other non-Hindi speakers to learn Hindi & Sanskrit pronunciation. Thanks, by User 2know4power ( talk) 02:14, 12 January 2017 (UTC).
May be people who know Sanskrit could, please take a look at this: audio files for 'stop consonants' in Hindi pronunciation, & say if they can be used for the pronunciation of 'stop consonants' in Sanskrit too?. Thanks in advance, by User 2know4power ( talk) 19:07, 16 January 2017 (UTC).
There is a move discussion in progress on Help talk:IPA which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. — RMCD bot 16:18, 15 July 2017 (UTC)
There is one source cited here, which does seem to be reliable. Why then are does the page not consistently use the IPA provided in the source? These should either be made consistent, or other sources provided. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shaav ( talk • contribs) 07:16, 18 July 2017 (UTC)
Not impossible because it wasn't actually syllabic by Classical times, but a (retroflex?) flap followed by /i/. But people transcribe it as syllabic 'r' etc. regardless. — kwami ( talk) 01:30, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I agree that it should be consistent. If the source is inaccurate, we should find another more accurate source. Currently, the transcription shows र as [r], which is a trill. This seems counter to any source or anecdotal evidence (which would suggest it should be [ɾ] or an alveolar flap). Getsnoopy ( talk) 21:38, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
I went through all the Sanskrit transcriptions to remove the dental diacritics and to conform transcriptions to what's at this chart. While I changed all instances of [ʃ] to [ɕ], and instances of [tɕ] and [dʐ] to [ʃ] and [dʒ] respectively, I wonder if we shouldn't be more consistent. What do people think? — Ƶ§œš¹ [lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt] 17:49, 1 January 2019 (UTC)
Someone asked me to check the table after an editor gave it an eastern (Oriya/Bangla) pronunciation. I restored it to Classical pronunciation as best I could. But that meant changing some longstanding transcriptions, such as the 'syllabic' r and l being transcribed as actual syllabic consonants. According to our Vedic Sanskrit article, these had broken by Classical times. (Unfortunately, it's a bit difficult to tell when that article is describing Vedic and when Classical pronunciation.) Also made <r> retroflex, the diphthongs <ai, au> > [ai, au] (unless I'm misreading that and they should be [əi, əu]), removed the retroflex el, etc.
We could have two columns, Vedic and Classical, if people like. But otherwise, given that we use stress rather than tone, IMO we should stick to Classical. — kwami ( talk) 01:38, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
@ Erutuon:, @ Mr KEBAB:, @ Peter238:, @ Aeusoes1: If y'all think the table is okay, I'll use AWB change the transclusions to match. We should decide about the preceding question too, & also whether I messed up and the <a> in [ai, au] in our Vedic article was supposed to be the same as plain <a> = [ə]. — kwami ( talk) 02:59, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
As for our source, Zieba & Stiehl, they don't say what they mean by 'original'. Sanskrit has a long history. The transcription of ऐ as [aːi] would be Vedic, but then ए should be [ai], right? They also have [x] for visarga. Was that also Vedic? I understand that there were Vedic allophones of visarga such as [ɸ].
I do think centralized [ɐ] for the inherent vowel seems more likely than mid [ə], though. — kwami ( talk) 18:14, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I took the stress off काल, as it seemed dubious it would be on the 2nd syllable. — kwami ( talk)
: incategory:"Sanskrit lemmas" intitle:/ञ/
on Wiktionary. That could be predictable since it's after a palatal obstruent, but I don't know. —
Eru·
tuon
20:17, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
I also wonder about tatsama. Is that t+s, or a modern pronunciation of c? — kwami ( talk)
Syllabic r of Sanskrit is here given 'ri' as its IPA value, but it is known very well that it is true only for Hindi and other modern Indo-aryan languages. For Sanskrit it is syllabic, as its name suggests. [1] Not in a single wikipedia page, it is 'ri'. [2] [3] It seems the page to be a copy from Hindi IPA page with several edits. I am replacing 'ri' with syllabic r and I don't think that such a well known fact should be more ignored anymore, as my last edit was reverted and I don't expect this to be repeated. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashutosh Jha ( talk • contribs) 15:29, 13 May 2020 (UTC)
I was going off our articles, so you'd need to check the sources there. One is Tiwari ([1955] 2005), which describes the changes from Vedic to Classical. Remember, this IPA key is for Classical, not Vedic. As of two minutes ago, our Vedic article stated the following. How much of this is Tiwari and how much might be OR I dont't know.
The pronunciations of syllabic [r̩] (ऋ) and [l̩] (ऌ) and their long counterparts [r̩ː] (ॠ) and [l̩ː] (ॡ) no longer retained their pure pronunciations, but had started to be pronounced as short and long [ri] (रि) and [li] (ल्रि) during the decline of Sanskrit. It partly varies by region like in southern India, including Maharashtra, people will pronounce ऋ as ru (रु)and ऌ as lru (ल्रु), this is pronounced according to Taittiriya Pratishakya of the Taittiriya Shakha or branch of the Yajur Veda. Virtually no region pronounces as would in vedic Sanskrit generally. Only while reciting Vedas is it normally heard. But if the Pratishakhya, i.e. the pronunciation manual, mandates it otherwise, the latter is followed.
I checked out the sources in our Sanskrit article that I could access, and Goldman & Goldman (2002) says that the <ṛ> is pronounced like the ri in "rig", which supports our Vedic article and what I had changed this key to last year.
In any case, it would be foolish for our IPA guide to contradict our articles on Sanskrit. Start a discussion on changing the phonology/phonetics sections of those articles per best sources, and if people agree on a change, then change this key to match. But don't do it backwards.
IMO, as I said in the previous thread, we really should have a consensus source to go off of, rather than reverting each other based on whatever source we happened to read yesterday. For a living language we can look for expert phonetic descriptions, but that's not going to work for liturgical and artificial ones. — kwami ( talk) 05:52, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
BTW, the Whitney grammar Ashutosh used as a ref to support the retention of Vedic pronunciation in Classical (which AFAICT it never addresses) was published in 1879 and is scarcely intelligible. For one thing, it says the 'syllabic' ar is "untrilled". Does that mean it's [ɹ] as in General American English? Regardless, it contradicts Ashutosh's change to a syllabic trill.
I removed the 'syllabic' els. The short one only occurs in the single verb klp 'to fit', and so is extremely unlikely to ever be linked to this key (we can always add it if it is), while the long one doesn't occur at all. — kwami ( talk) 08:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
Use ⟨r̩⟩ if the actual pronunciation is unknown, just like we use ⟨r⟩ for English [ɹ]. Even if the actual pronunciation wasn't syllabic (but rather a sequence of a consonant and a vowel, or the other way around), it wouldn't be unprecedented to transcribe it as such. For instance, some sources use ⟨r̩⟩ for what surfaces as [əɾ] in Slovene (and it's actually a better transcription, AFAICS - at least as far as phonemics are concerned. But this isn't Help:IPA/Slovene). Kbb2 (ex. Mr KEBAB) ( talk) 15:25, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
r̥ and r̥̄ are metrically short and long and bear different pitches, but they are phonetically combinations of vowel and consonant segments: r flanked by very short segments which have different vowel colors in different dialects. In the dialect Śaunaka represents, r̥ consists of a consonantal segment r – produced either at the roots of the teeth or the alveolae – flanked by segments ă (one-fourth of a mora) which are produced further forward than a due to the tongue positioning for r: ără. This accords with the statement that r̥ has the same place of production as velar (jihvāmūlīya) stops k and so on – in contrast to a, said to be produced further back – and with the R̥gvedaprātiśākhya order of vowels: r̥ follows a ā. There is also evidence that r̥ was pronounced ĕrĕ and ĭrĭ. In descriptions where the place of the consonantal segment is assigned to r̥, both this vowel and r are said to be retroflex elements. Modern pronunciations of r̥ vary; e.g. ri in the midlands, ru in the southwest.
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I can't understand why the edits are reverted again and again. All the grammar books, whether traditional and modern, states that it is a syllabic vowel. But it is again and again being reverted to 'ɽi'. If it is pronounced so today, that doesn't mean it is it's original pronunciation. As श is pronounced nowadays as ʃ, but it's original pronunciation is ɕ. Even if in classical Sanskrit, it was 'ri', we must be nuetral. In English, the most common pronunciation of 'r' is 'ɹ', but it is transcribed as 'r'. To stay consistent with the script, we must follow 'ɹ̩' or 'ɹ', and even r̩ and r are acceptable. But noway, it could be ri. It not confuses the reader, but also makes it hazardous for the Sanskrit literature, mostly in verse, as they are set in prosodic meter which is very sensitive to the length of the vowel, as 'ri' will make previous consonant conjunct, making that syllable heavy Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 19:34, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
r̥ and r̥̄ are metrically short and long and bear different pitches, but they are phonetically combinations of vowel and consonant segments: r flanked by very short segments which have different vowel colors in different dialects. In the dialect Śaunaka represents, r̥ consists of a consonantal segment r – produced either at the roots of the teeth or the alveolae – flanked by segments ă (one-fourth of a mora) which are produced further forward than a due to the tongue positioning for r: ără. This accords with the statement that r̥ has the same place of production as velar (jihvāmūlīya) stops k and so on – in contrast to a, said to be produced further back – and with the R̥gvedaprātiśākhya order of vowels: r̥ follows a ā. There is also evidence that r̥ was pronounced ĕrĕ and ĭrĭ. In descriptions where the place of the consonantal segment is assigned to r̥, both this vowel and r are said to be retroflex elements. Modern pronunciations of r̥ vary; e.g. ri in the midlands, ru in the southwest.
Yes, it is a good point, but the source clearly says that, Modern pronunciations of r̥ vary; e.g. ri in the midlands, ru in the southwest. see, it says ′Modern Pronunciation′. About Classical or Earlier pronunciation, it says, flanked by segments ă (one-fourth of a mora) which are produced further forward than a due to the tongue positioning for r: ără. This accords with the statement that r̥ has the same place of production as velar (jihvāmūlīya) stops k and so on – in contrast to a, said to be produced further back – and with the R̥gvedaprātiśākhya order of vowels: r̥ follows a ā. There is also evidence that r̥ was pronounced ĕrĕ and ĭrĭ. Can you assert any one transcription to ′r̥ ′? As it has several transcriptions, not one, ără or ĕrĕ or ĭrĭ. And none of them could be added as the IPA key, it is not suitable. ′ɹ̩′ or ′r̩′ is its common transcription. it clears 'ri' transcription is never suitable, as it is modern pronunciation. The pronunciations ără or ĕrĕ or ĭrĭ could be true, but it is secondary pronunciation. Originally it is indeed syllabic. And you can't assign thse in transcription. And about 'ri', it is not even uniform, it is 'ru' in southern parts. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 10:43, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Initially I had made the same edits as you did. I had too used 'r' instead of alveolar approximant. But, it was reverted and they said that it was an untrilled approximant. I was intolerant to the transcription 'ri', and I wanted to change it to syllabic. So, I had only one option, to transcribe it as alveolar approximant. So, I did it. However, Iam not sure that is it approximant or a tap. I have no problem. But I wanted syllabic transcription, as the sources suggest. You can see it above in this section, that I had initially transcribed it as r, but I was said to transcribe it as alveolar approximant. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 14:46, 30 June 2020 (UTC)
Many times, my edits are being reverted, without any reason. And the reason given here is that, it must be discussed. If we have all the sources, it is known to every person being concerned to the language, why discussion is needed. And about 'r̥', I can't understand, what's the problem? All the grammar books, whether traditional and modern, states that it is a syllabic vowel. But it is again and again being reverted to 'ɽi'. If it is pronounced so today, that doesn't mean it is it's original pronunciation. As श is pronounced nowadays as ʃ, but it's original pronunciation is ɕ. Even if in classical Sanskrit, it was 'ri', we must be nuetral. In English, the most common pronunciation of 'r' is 'ɹ', but it is transcribed as 'r'. To stay consistent with the script, we must follow 'ɹ̩' or 'ɹ', and even r̩ and r are acceptable. But noway, it could be ri. It not confuses the reader, but also makes it hazardous for the Sanskrit literature, mostly in verse, as they are set in prosodic meter which is very sensitive to the length of the vowel, as 'ri' will make previous consonant conjunct, making that syllable heavy. And, the other edits. I have added a note to coronal consonants, that they are dental, but originally may have been alveolar. I've changed r to ɹ, and of course ready to discuss on that. Added other pronunciation of Visarga, we could add it in a note, it could be discussed. And also, changed the text 'Classical Sanskrit' to just 'Sanskrit' to make the IPA key broader, as the page is named 'Help:IPA/Sanskrit', not Classical Sanskrit. In short, I'm ready for any discussion, instead of the pronunciation of syllabic r as 'ri'. I'm afraid, if this behaviour is not going to stop, no further information could be put on it. It's not the single page, where it is done. I hope, this is not going to repeat. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 19:31, 26 June 2020 (UTC)
An allophone of [e] and [o] after [e] and [o] respectivelydoesn't make any sense. I was under the impression the sound in question, ɐ, is simply just short a.
An allophone of [e] and [o] after [e] and [o] respectivelymakes perfect sense: just think of the language not liking [ee] and [oo] clusters. And as for [ɽi], as clear from the section above, there's absolutely no reason why we should continue to be using that. – Uanfala (talk) 10:24, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
Ignore all my arguments, but please give me the reason of maintaining the transcription of 'ṛ' as 'ri'. It seems you have not read the previous section [ of Syllabic r in Sanskrit|]. I have cleared all the arguments. For my other edits, I'm surely ready for discussion in the talk page. I'm now only changing the transcriptipn for 'ṛ,ṝ and ḷ' and going to correct formatting, and I'll make any further edit only after discussion, such as notes on Visarga, or on allophones of 'ɐ'. Ashutosh Jha ( talk) 16:23, 28 June 2020 (UTC)
@ Uanfala, since the North American pronunciation was used for consonants like ɖ why not the Australian pronunciation for /ɐ/ and /a:/? AE has /ɐ/ but NAE doesnt have [ʈ, ɖ] etc and words with /kʂ, tr, ɟɲ, ɕr/ are common so why not those? ऌ was also the short version of ॡ so it should be /l̩/ AleksiB 1945 ( talk) 20:50, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
@ Aeusoes1, why? as i said in the summary 1) most people (if some do) dont pronounce canyon with a [ɲ] or ahead with a [ɦ] its either [n] or [nʲ] for canyon and [h] for ahead 2) burnt has a partial retroflex n only in rhotic accents, even the rhotic accents dont have a pure [ɳ] 3) t in stable or table isnt retroflex in any of the dialects 4) ch in chew is aspirated and c/ch are distinguished in sanskrit, how is the inaccurate? AleksiB 1945 ( talk) 21:14, 2 August 2021 (UTC)
इ is listed as [ɪ] while ई is listed as [i:]. Similarly, उ is given as [ʊ] and ऊ as [u:]. This is demonstrably untrue. They have the same vowel quality. इ is [i] and ई is [i:], same with उ [u] and ऊ [u:]. Panini establishes this in the Astadhyayi. अ and आ do differ in vowel quality as well as length and due to how Panini formulates his rules he has to account for this fact. The sandhi rule for joining like vowels is formulated thus: When two homogeneous vowels meet (two vowels with the same quality, irrespective of length), replace them both with one long homogeneous vowel. So इ/ई + इ/ई will become one ई. However, as अ and आ differ slightly in pronunciation this creates a problem, as they are not technically homogeneous. Panini has to work around this fact in the Astadhyayi to allow अ/आ + अ/आ to yield आ, first pretending at the onset of the rules that they were homogeneous, then in the very last verse resetting अ to its normal pronunciation. He does not do this with any other vowels but treats इ/ई and उ/ऊ as identical in pronunciation with no problems. Nor does the Paniniya Shiksha mention any difference in vowel quality between them, only अ and आ. Verse: अ अ । (Ast. 8.4.68)
As for ए, ऐ, ओ, and औ, Panini and the Pratishakhyas disagree slightly. According to Panini, ए is one half matra in the throat and one and a half on the palate (so closer to [ɐi:]) and ओ is one half matra in the throat and one and a half on the lips (so like [ɐu:]). The Pratishakhyas disagreed and said that they each have one place of articulation which two matras (thus [e:] and [o:]). They are in agreement regarding ऐ and औ. Both assert that ए is one matra in the throat and one on the palate [ai] and औ is one in the throat and one on the lips [au]. Both Panini and the Pratishakhyas are quite old, so in my opinion either pronunciation of ए/ओ is acceptable. Verse: अर्धमात्रा तु कण्ठ्यस्य एकारौकारयोर्भवेत् । ऐकारौकारयोर्मात्रा तयोर्विवृतसंवृतम् ॥ (PS. 19)
Transcribing ऋ as [r̩] is a bit puzzling. The description of the sound is correct, but I don't see why it should be regarded as a syllabic consonant at all and not a true vowel, as according to the Shiksha it is अस्पृष्टः (untouched). It approaches the place of articulation of र् but does not make contact. That many modern Indian languages pronounce it as ri or ru is unsurprising, given that even in Classical Sanskrit ऋ is a weak vowel that tends to make this change in some derivations, such as कृ becoming क्रियते and कुरुते. Also many roots which end in long ॠ tend to change to ईर् (as in तीर्यते from तॄ) or ऊर् (as in पूरयति from पॄ). As for ऌ, there was again some disagreement. Some grammarians simply didn't recognize it as a vowel, some regarded it as an untouched (अस्पृष्टः) vowel, and some as more like a syllabic ल् that was touched (which might explain why some did not regard it as a vowel at all). Verse: अचोऽस्पृष्टा यणस्त्वीषन्नेमस्पृष्टाः शलः स्मृताः । शेषाः स्पृष्टा हलः प्रोक्ता निबोधानुप्रदानतः ॥ (PS. 38)
As for र्, many places of articulation are given. Panini regards it as a cerebral and does not recognize the alveolar place of articulation at all, placing र् further back in the mouth than the Spanish r, for example. However, the Pratishakhyas gave various places of articulation for it. Some considered it dental, alveolar, or even velar. But the Paninian pronunciation is more like [ɽ]. Verse: अष्टौ स्थानानि वर्णानामुरःकण्ठः शिरस्तथा । जिह्वामूलं च दन्ताश्च नासिकोष्ठौ च तालु च ॥ (PS. 13)
The source provided is filled with many other errors and should not be regarded as accurate at all. The stress rule it gives is simply nonexistent. It states that Vedic pitch accent is unpredictable (which is true) but then says that there is a stress accent present in Classical Sanskrit which follows a rule. However, the rule it gives does not exist in Sanskrit. It is the Latin stress rule that western scholars adopted for Sanskrit as a matter of convention, but it has never been true for Sanskrit. In fact, stress accent in Sanskrit is a rather inconsequential thing for which there does not exist any simple rule at all. Furthermore, it states many false things about the anusvara. There is a long-standing conflation of the terms anusvara, anunasika, and rangavarna that has confused many people. The anusvara is not a nasalization of the vowel, it is a nasal sound pronounced after the vowel. Hence it is referred to in the old grammatical literature by its full name "अनुस्वारनासिक्यः" literally meaning "nasal sound after the vowel". According to the Paniniya shiksha and the Pratishakhyas, the anusvara (along with the yamas) has only the nose as its place of articulation, not the nose and mouth as it would be in a nasalized vowel. Thus it is a "pure nasal" sound in which the sound is uttered directly and entirely from the nose. The term "anunasika" has also lead to confusion. Panini only uses it to mean any nasal sound. Indeed, the nasal consonants are called the anunasika consonants, but people have gotten confused by the term thinking it too means a nasalized vowel. However, that is not how Panini uses the term. The nasalization of a vowel is called the रङ्गवर्णः in the Shiksha. Verse: अनुस्वारयमानां च नासिका स्थानमुच्यते । (PS. 22a)
Another egregious error is transcribing the original pronunciation of the visarga as [x] which is absurd. [x] is the जिह्वामूलीयः (literally meaning "root of the tongue") which is a breath restricted by the back of the tongue and occurring as an allophone of the visarga when followed by प् or फ्. The unvoiced visarga [h] is contrasted with the voiced hakara [ɦ]. Some regarded the hakara as only being half voiced, but in either case, it is in the throat when followed by a vowel and in the chest when combined with a nonvowel. Verse: हकारं पञ्चमैर्युक्तमन्तःस्थाभिश्चसंयुतम् । औरस्यं तं विजानीयात्कण्ठ्यमाहुरसंयुतम् । (PS. 16) 2607:D580:162:BB00:EC0A:B4B7:C8BC:BDAE ( talk) 07:17, 25 November 2022 (UTC)
@ 1Firang: There is no consensus in Help:IPA/Hindi_and_Urdu. You have just kept on adding your changes with "brute force" without consensus. So please don't change anything before reaching a genuine consensus (not just among you and yourself). Stop your edit spree and read Help:IPA and some introductory books about IPA and phonetics first. Competence is required. Austronesier ( talk) 14:30, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
Kwamikagami replaced...etc. You are the one who wants to introduce changes here. Kwamikagami and I have merely salvaged the last good verion. And don't forget to explain your changes (onus, remember?). "More appropriate" and "unacceptable" is not enough. – Austronesier ( talk) 18:01, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
You might have a point about adding a note to the existing key word (not replacing it) about th-stopping", so please let me know if you agree with the addition of "(with th-stopping)" after "the" for the approximation for द, with another approximation being "other, or adding "(but dental)" after the "do" that we have as the approximation for द at present, as the IPA for that is "ð" and adding "(but dental)" after the approximation "redhead" for the Sanskrit alphabet ध as it will become ढ otherwise.- 1Firang ( talk) 04:32, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
The rest is mostly nonsense".- 1Firang ( talk) 04:41, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
repetitive,
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I will answer only two points now the rest to follow later. Don't make change unilateral changes until then:
the "p" in "pan" is not plosive, this is plainly wrong.
More later. – Austronesier ( talk) 07:36, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
the "k" in "kin" is not plosiveis wrong.
More to come. – Austronesier ( talk) 18:33, 12 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami and Austronesier: At the moment, we have;-
Consonants | |||
---|---|---|---|
IPA | Nagari | IAST | English approximation |
d | द | d | width |
ɖ | ड | ḍ | (American)bird |
The "d" in bird and width are not pronounced differently as per the chart above (copied from the Help IPA Sanskrit page) but they should be, which is why I am trying to change the "width" as an approximation.- 1Firang ( talk) 03:25, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
The rest is mostly nonsense".- 1Firang ( talk) 15:29, 13 June 2023 (UTC)
@ Kwamikagami: With this revert, you changed "ado (but dental)" to "width"as an approximation for the Indic alphabet द but it is wrong, while the original approximation that was there (ado) is correct, so please self revert your edit or provide a reliable source for the same.- 1Firang ( talk) 10:18, 14 June 2023 (UTC)
I won't try to edit because there are too many of them but why are those alternative pronunciations for the diphthongs inserted here and even described as being Classical Skt. when they are distinctly NIA (raising the first element of ai to /ɛ~e/, /ɔ~o/ for au, which can only be explained as monophthongization. Interestingly, that's exactly what happens in NIA) and what's more, not a single source is given. BidensHyperborea ( talk) 11:54, 19 September 2023 (UTC)
Why is the example for the dental plosive /t/ "eighth," with just the t highlighted? Most dialects pronounce "eighth" as [eɪθ]. Wouldn't a better example be something like "stop"? Some dialects pronounce /th/ as an allophone of t, but in those cases it's always aspirated as a [tʰ]. ForestAngel ( talk) 04:22, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
The article now says that Classical Sanskrit had a predictable stess pattern. But in the above topic 'Many mistakes' someone says that this is just something invented by western scholars as a matter of convention. I am actually very inclined to believe this, unless someone can give a good source for this stress pattern. Exarchus ( talk) 10:21, 1 January 2024 (UTC)