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![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 2 November 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 26 April 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 3 January 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 9 February 2011. The result of the discussion was A unified approach to bias categories; ban individuals & organisations from inclusion. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 16 September 2014. The result of the discussion was Speedy revert from Anti-Semitism to Antisemitism. |
The Anti-Semitism template is confusing and potentially misleading. Check out for instance the Host desecration page which has the Antisemitism template. It lists organizations and writers such as the Anti-Defamation League, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, Deborah Lipstadt etc who are scholars and organizations involved in COMBATING antisemitism, i.e. they are Anti-anti-Semitism. To include them in the antisemitism template would make an unfamiliar reader think that they ARE anti-semites. It should probably include Anti-Semitic organizations like Neo-Nazis, and people like Hitler, the Protocols of Zion etc instead. Perhaps someone can correct the template to include a clarifying that Jonathan Sacks and Deborah Lipstadt are scholars who are NOT Anti-Semitic...maybe something like Organizations/Writers FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM would be more appropriate— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.199.177.246 ( talk • contribs)
I know this is not considered polite, and i don't very well know an alternative, but i think the german word jude in the antisemitism picture is not quitte apropriate. (only a j perhaps like many europeans versions of the symbol. This one suggests the german stereotyping of jews is the most clear, when i would rather make the point it is actually the least clear, albeit the most obvious.) Ofcourse I trust (what is that called? judaic? israeli? ) historical analyses, but i think this invites surplus anti-germanism, hardly a way to sincerely counter discrimination , and the resent of the poor suppressed masses in general, perhaps. Neither is it representative, for what actually may have been the root cause of this anti-semitism: The general contempt of jewish and other minoritys(!?) human life. I don't mind, i don't want to be naughty either, i will try to forget of the hypocracy of this german word immediatly, (More russians died in german camps then did jews , they died there for rasist reasons.) If billions of ppl can't have it but this way, okay for me, but i think it helps not to trouble history. The J is much more representative because it was the lax rasist and antisemite attitude europewide and over many centurys that facilitated nazism and especially the jewish shoa/holocaust. Not specifically the german variety of it. If not that is the point made, what is ? 77.251.179.188 09:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
OK -- perhaps the deletion of Category:Anti-Semitic people was a mistake because it seems that many/most of the names formerly found in that category have now made their way over to this more general category, and now this category is positively overflowing with individuals that may or may not be personally anti-Semitic (many of them are still living; thus the potential for libel al la John Seigenthaler, Sr.). We have obvious anti-Semites rightfully categorized like Hitler & the major Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, Holocaust deniers, and Neo-Nazis, but others are certainly more ambiguous ('anti-Zionists,' etc). For instance, in regards to ambiguity, I just removed the controversial American academic Kevin B. MacDonald from the category because it has never been definitively 'proven' that he is indeed an anti-Semite, and I have placed him under the more specific Category:Scholars of antisemitism (because he has written scholarly books on the subject of anti-Semitism). I think that it's fairly correct to say that he indeed harbors some anti-Semitic views (or views that are thought to be anti-Semitic by most), but it is not up to us here on Wikipedia to INFER things like this, but yet he continues to be wrongfully placed in this category. There is a disclaimer that states: "Adding this category to an article is in no way intended to imply that the subject of the article is antisemitic," but in all reality adding this category to an person's article is indeed tantamount to labeling a person/group/event as anti-Semitic. Others individuals in this category include Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Gilad Atzmon, Charley Reese, Lenora Fulani, Horst Mahler, and a host of others (just scroll through the category and look for individual names). Again, I think that we must be VERY CAREFUL about adding this category to the articles of living people lest Wikipedia be damaged by even more controversies that involve mislabeling/miscategorizing living people through the spreading of potentially damning information (even if it is not true!). It's best to let history decide stuff like this, I think. -- Wassermann 12:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The difference between "guilty of" and "accused of" should be explicit. Since this category has loose boundaries, it seems more suited to rename it "Antisemitism polemics" or something equivalent. Pronoein ( talk) 18:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree. By explicit I meant that whatever you think this category should be used for, its name should convey this meaning instead of a vague word that could lead - and is leading - to misinterpretations. People tagged in the Antisemitism category could be perceived as guilty or accused of antisemitism, whereas the quiproquo vanishes with more explicit category. Since it's a passionnate and sometimes hateful topic, setting in advance well-defined rules could defuse some fights to come. Pronoein ( talk) 04:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
This category contains articles that discuss or refer to the topic of antisemitism.
It does not imply that the subjects of any articles in the category are antisemitic.
<backdent>FYI, to anyone who passes by, I finally got around to reading Wikipedia:BLP#Categories.2C_lists_and_navigation_templates and Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Inappropriate_categories and see even in those some contradictions, incomplete material, etc. OI!! Complicated issues. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 14:28, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I just investigated Racism talk page and found Category_talk:Racism#Removing_names_discussion and left this comment, after original comment, also in box:
- Removing names discussion
There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_January_18#Category:Homophobia about renaming it where it was suggested all WP:BLP names should be removed from this category and antisemitism and such ones where the tag could be considered pejorative. Dmcq ( talk) 12:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- I note that the result of this discussion was: The result of the discussion was: no consensus for the proposed rename. However, because consistent consensus has been to delete categories that label people, organizations, media, etc. as "homophobic" (see, e.g., 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) no articles for allegedly homophobic people (including fictional people), organizations, or media should exist in this category. I also note that there are serious WP:BLP concerns with adding this category to articles about living people. If this restriction cannot be adhered to, users can notify me and we can go from there. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:48, 2 February 2010 (UTC) It seems to me that either this should be the policy for both Category:Racism and Category:Antisemitism or, to the opposite so that such accusations may be more easily identified and verified, all three should have subcategories called Category:Accusations of ____. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
So it looks like this is a topic that needs review on both Racism and Antisemtism articles. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
First, Wikipedia:BLPCAT#Categories.2C_lists_and_navigation_templates makes it clear that putting people in categories like this that may clearly or ambiguously infer the person has a "poor reputation" is against policy. Putting a disclaimer on the top of the category is just an end run around this issue.
Proposal: Since no people at all should be mentioned in this category, start a category called something like Category:Opponents of antisemitism or Category:Activists against antisemitism. This allows such people to be in a relevant category, and removes the problem of people possibly confusing them with people who are accused of antisemitism. Again, I personally wouldn't be opposed to a clear category for people with sufficient WP:RS accusing them of antisemitism, but that category created by someone else recently was deleted speedily and was roundly rejected at BLP talk page. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 12:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The categories that related to people have been successfully deleted over the past three years; this category relates to discussions about thetopic, which is why the ADL is in this category too. I just added Abraham Foxman to the category as well, as leader of the ADL, he certainly is involved in the discussions. -- Avi ( talk) 15:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Carol, the issue with your suggestion is that it refers specifically to people, which is what we have been trying to avoid for years. If the category is not-people specific, it makes its application much less political and much more based on issues that depend on reliable sources' discussions and not pundits opinions. -- Avi ( talk) 16:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Carol, no one should be in Category:Antisemitism solely because someone "accused them of being an antisemite". But if someone writes about antisemitic topcis, or if someone's work is the subject of discussions about antisemitism, the category applies. For example, if we had two separate articles about Carlos Latuff, one "Carlos Latuff" the person and the other "Cartoons of Carlos Latuff", I would agree that the category be placed solely on the second. However, we only have one article. Moreover, the cartoons are the only reason Latuff is notable in the first place. There has been much written about the nature of the cartoons, including antisemitism, so the category needs to remain. -- Avi ( talk) 18:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Artur Carlos de Barros Basto, Jan Gotlib Bloch, Itzik Feffer, Abraham Foxman, Richard J. Green, Norman Hapgood, Pieter Willem van der Horst, Uriah P. Levy, Rodrigo López (physician), Solomon Lozovsky, Frederick Mayer (spy), Irène Némirovsky, John M. Oesterreicher, Aaron Sapiro, Joseph Seligman, Henri Torres, and Benjamin Zuskin are all in the category, with no implication that they are antisemitic. This is a category about articles that discuss or refer to the topic of antisemitism, nothing more; there are no "BLP implications" associated with adding it to any article. Jayjg (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
@CarolMooreDC
> Why not a new subcategory called something
> like Activists Against or Opponents of Antisemitism
because arguing about peoples' political aims, real, alleged, or constructed, either by themselves or their opponents, is bound to cause endless POV related disruption. In my native Germany, the most prominent Nazi rag, the National-Zeitung, regularly finds pleasure having their Jewish writers write, particularly when it's about 'Zionism' or Israel. Their goal is the same as is Mahmud Ahmadinedjad's, when he invites both European Neo-Nazis and Jewish representatives to his Teheran conference on the Holocaust. Both the National-Zeitung and the Iranian president claim not to be antisemites, and so do their Jewish collaborators--so, what should we do? While there should be consensus encyclopedically (...in an ideal world), politically, there's hardly such thing about what is or not and who is opposing or supporting. More often than not, one group accuses the other of antisemitism, and it's not on us to sort that out. As long as, say, both Latuff and the ADL are filed under [Antisemitism] we're on the safe side, everything else leads to surefire mayhem. --
tickle
me 01:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Category_namespace_templates reads: This category may inappropriately label persons. See Wikipedia:categorization of people for advice on how to apply categorization to articles relating to people. How does this not relate to this category? CarolMooreDC ( talk) 19:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_February_9#Bias_categories I have changed the blue header box. I found out from someone who may be using a bot removing a BLP from the article. Not sure how it works. But let's all comply with policy :-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 22:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
The category is not for branding. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is part of the category. The ADL combats anti-Semitism and other forms of racism. Its being part of the category doesn't mean it is being branded as anti-Semitic. It means that the ADL is relevant to anti-Semitism. It is reasonable to have the ADL as part of the category. We've got to respect the good sense of the reader. We can't worry that the reader who will look at the page for three seconds and leave with a distorted view. That could happen with any reader who looks at any page for three second. Iss246 ( talk) 15:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
No. That is an exaggerated interpretation of my position. In the 1930s, my paternal grandfather, a Jewish immigrant from Breslau (now Wroclaw), ran a candy store in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn, then a German-American neighborhood. He was the target of the German-American Bund, a pro-Nazi organization that tried to put him out of business. Do my grandfather's (and father's) travails belong in the category? Of course not. But does Adolf Eichmann belong in the category? He sure does. Does the ADL belong in the category? It sure does, but for the reason that it works to combat anti-Semitism. We have to consider the historical positions of the actors, organizations, and governments. Iss246 ( talk) 16:42, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I add this. I appreciate that Pieter Kuiper does not want to make the category of anti-Semitism become laden with subjectivity. I can imagine that a Wikipedia user may want to take a kind of "revenge" on a historical figure whom the user believes crossed the line into anti-Semitism. A problem such as this can apply to any category that bears on some unfortunate dogma that targets entire group of people (e.g., racism). I think that as long-term contributors to Wikipedia we can productively use the historical record to build the category of anti-Semitism into one that reasonably reflects on important figures, organizations, governments, events, etc. that bear significantly on anti-Semitism. Iss246 ( talk) 17:35, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Why isn't Anti-Zionism a category of Antisemitism? It is well recognised as the principal contemporary manifestation of Jew hatred and has been since Patrick Moynihan and Chaim Herzog's speeches at the UN. [1]
References
Cpsoper ( talk) 18:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Category:Antisemitism and its various subcategories, per this 2011 CFD, continue to include the language that "It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly antisemitic" despite the reality that it does, in practice, include individuals and groups that are, per WP:V and WP:RS, allegedly antisemitic? -- Kendrick7 talk 05:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I am open to discussion on the matter -- Kendrick7 talk 05:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
As much as I hate to make an ad hitlerum argument, if it is the will of the project to remove Adolf Hitler from this category's subcategories, I'll abide by it. I would suggest instead that evil actually does exist and has existed in this world, and just saying it's "bias" is a complete and total intellectual cop-out. -- Kendrick7 talk
Also I think we need a clearer definition of "Anti". For example, Anti-Catholicism starts with: "Anti-Catholicism is hostility towards, or opposition to Catholicism". That seems odd to me, because aren't hostility and opposition entirely different concepts? When "Anti" is defined more clearly (e.g. something with denial of basic human rights), then people can be classified as "Anti" more easily as well. Marcocapelle ( talk) 06:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the alternative proposed above of "anti-semitic crimes" or something similar is an interesting way to go. Clearly, Hitler is not known as an anti-Semite because he ranted and raved about it, he took and directed specific action - indeed all Nazi's could be fairly painted with the same brush, so you could just put the whole Nazi category under "Groups which undertook anti-semitic activities" - we can come up with better wording - but it has to be something more than "made a speech that caused the ADL to brand him as anti-semite". We've been in discussion at the LGBT project about creating something called Anti-gay activists - which is I think an interesting way to classify people like Fred Phelps - he's not just a guy who has a few homophobic sentiments, he has been open about his activism against gay people. I wonder if "Activists promoting anti-semitism" could work? Just throwing out ideas - I think the problem is classifying someone purely on their beliefs esp when such beliefs are often considered pejorative, but if you can find something they did - e.g. committed a crime in the name of anti-semitism, or otherwise were activist in promoting anti-Semitism, then you have a better basis for a category.- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 14:22, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Here are my comments on the CfD:
1) The proposer, Roscelese, did not propose banning the adding of individuals, organizations, media, etc. from the bias categories. Her proposal simply asked for consensus on making the bias categories uniform by taking a "unified approach" to them.
2) Roscelese herself does not !vote in favor of not listing "individuals, orgs, etc.".
3) Eighteen editors expressed an opinion on the "unified approach" proposal: Eleven supporting—Roscelese, CarolMooreDC, Good Ol'factory, dmcq, Kaldari, Dezidor, Joe Decker, Nick Levinson, Moni3, Geometry guy and SandyGeorgia; Seven opposing— Avi, Debresser, Rainbowofpeace, Gnangarra, Jayjg, Jack Cox and Ricardianman.
4) Of the eleven supporting !votes, six also supported banning individuals, orgs, etc., from the bias categories: CaroleMooreDC, Good Ol'factory, and Dezidor explicitly, and Nick Levinson, Moni3, and SandyGeorgia by recommending that the bias categories be deleted entirely. (Of the seven oppose !votes, none support banning individuals & orgs, etc.)
5) (The support !vote of dmcq is ambiguous: he says he approves of banning individuals, but appreciates having a "category of people convicted of anti-homosexual crimes".)
6) If you include the !vote of dmcq, there are seven !votes that support not naming individuals, orgs, etc., in bias categories.
7) Seven divided by eighteen is 39%, not even a simple majority of the !vote.
8) The finding by the closer, Timrollpickering, of "Consensus for a unified approach to these categories" is supportable—of eighteen !votes, eleven supported a "unified approach" (consistency is a good thing, right?).
9) The finding by the closer, Timrollpickering, of "most support to ban individuals & organisations", is manifestly incorrect and false—only six (or seven) out of eighteen editors expressed such support.
10) Any action taken on the basis of this manifestly erroneous claim of consensus (i.e. "most support to ban individuals & organisations") is surely invalid.
11) In addition, the closing admin had no warrant to make a determination on anything but the question posed by Roscelese: whether to take a unified approach to bias categories (and not on how to make the bias categories uniform).
— 71.178.50.222 ( talk) 01:50, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
And I agree that hardly adds up to consensus for the current language here. And we must consider that the outcome has been constantly ignored in practice ever since. No one ran off guns a-blazing to remove Hitler or Goebbels from this category, or else perhaps there might have been some backlash. And since no attempt to purge this category was carried out at the time (as the closing admin basically took a position no one actually asked for), editors who help maintain articles in this category were never made pointedly aware of the admin's decision so as to appeal it to WP:DRV in a timely manner. WP:CONSENSUS isn't something which occurs in smokey back rooms, and gets stuck in the back of a filing cabinet, only to be trotted out years later with the cry of "oh, but this has always been consensus." If you agree, help me strike down this silly rule. -- Kendrick7 talk 02:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
... only for editors who are against the idea that anti-Semitism exists to try and game the system by lumping it in with a whole bunch of other categories that happen to begin with the participle "anti" and pretending that makes them all "bias categories" as if that were a thing. And then the discussion gets closed by a bot? Is there no WP:JANITOR willing to stick their neck out on the line and admit that Adolph Hitler was an anti-Semite? This isn't hard people. -- Kendrick7 talk 07:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Considering that the above RFC ended with "no consensus", can it please be explained why that mass edits are taking place that state "rm category; per closure of recent RfC, no person or group can be categorized as anti-Semitic Category_talk:Antisemitism#RFC_on_purging_individuals_and_groups". 165.166.215.220 ( talk) 08:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Being confident that I've given everyone involved fair warning, whether or not you liked the way I phrased the RfC, or how exactly the closing admin understood it, that the original CfD is still in play, I am nevertheless resuming the purge the CfD originally called for until such a time as the language is removed from this, the parent category. -- Kendrick7 talk 05:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I know, anyone here who reads this will find it to be pointless, but a Semite is a thing, and that thing is not Jewish. If you are anti-Arab, you are anti-Semite, and that is just the most prominent example. We are supposed to write articles to the reader who has no previous knowledge of the topic. The beginning of this article defines that which a Semite is by defining its opposite. And yet, taking that on good value, appraising that with good faith, leaves nothing and leads nowhere in relation to a wealth of information. Now people here are going to say that doesn't matter because we are sourcing information and we follow it to the sources. But in fact we are democratising sources, lending more weight to the bigger present-day swing. But there are some sources and facts which stretch back and are more significant. That significance is not about whose name gets scrawled on a wall after you beat each other up, but it is simply about who and what we are from before we had an influence, and that is a lot more important and significant and notable no matter how much spam the wars and their props receive! ~ R. T. G 20:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
"Antisemite" is not a real word. It is a fake British word. The real spelling is anti-Semitism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.70.33.90 ( talk) 08:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Recently, an editor took this category out of the Racism category; this was reverted with an edit summary implying that it's obvious that antisemitism is racism. I think anthropologists count only three races, White, Black, and Asian. Other groups that were considered races in the past are no longer considered such among scientists. I do not know how Semites, when defined in a wider sense more or less as Middle Easterners, are classified racially. Semites when defined as Jewish experience antisemitism based on Jewish birth, Jewish identification, or an appearance of seeming Jewish, so that Black Jews and converts to Judaism can experience antisemitism, and so being a Semite in the sense of being Jewish is not about race. The discussion at Category talk:Racism#2006 comments has a reply that relies on Wikipedia and on a Nazi definition. The latter has been discredited as only supporting a political agenda that was itself discredited by a war and subsequent suppression; it is not part of any consensus except among Nazis. The Wikipedia article (putting aside that Wikipedia is not a reliable source), now Race (human categorization), does not mention semites, being semitic, or antisemitism. I don't object to removing this category from the Racism category but, if an alternative is preferred, clarifying language can be added to the Racism category page in order to encompass this category and perhaps others. Nick Levinson ( talk) 00:53, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Re my edits removing Discrimination and Racism, their recent reversion [5] [6] by PanchoS, and my removing them again...
WP:SUBCAT is fairly clear on this: "a page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category".
@ PanchoS: if you think the existing hierarchy of Category:Anti-national sentiment, Category:Racism and Category:Discrimination is wrong, then please fix it first. I make no assertions as to the validity of the existing hierachy, only that we should abide by WP:SUBCAT. Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
focus on correctly covering all relevant aspects of antisemitism— I'm not sure this make sense in this context. Category:Antisemitism can include (directly or indirectly) all categories and articles related to antisemitism, so the category "covers all relevant aspects". But that does not require that Category:Antisemitism be directly listed in grandparent categories (supercats of supercats of Category:Antisemitism), such as Discrimination and Racism.
/info/en/?search=Talk:Jackie_Walker_(activist)#Request_for_comment_can_we_say_Jackie_Walker_is_Jewish Slatersteven ( talk) 13:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)
![]() | This category does not require a rating on Wikipedia's
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![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 2 November 2006. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 26 April 2007. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 3 January 2008. The result of the discussion was keep. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 9 February 2011. The result of the discussion was A unified approach to bias categories; ban individuals & organisations from inclusion. |
![]() | This category was nominated for deletion on 16 September 2014. The result of the discussion was Speedy revert from Anti-Semitism to Antisemitism. |
The Anti-Semitism template is confusing and potentially misleading. Check out for instance the Host desecration page which has the Antisemitism template. It lists organizations and writers such as the Anti-Defamation League, Rabbi Jonathan Sacks, Deborah Lipstadt etc who are scholars and organizations involved in COMBATING antisemitism, i.e. they are Anti-anti-Semitism. To include them in the antisemitism template would make an unfamiliar reader think that they ARE anti-semites. It should probably include Anti-Semitic organizations like Neo-Nazis, and people like Hitler, the Protocols of Zion etc instead. Perhaps someone can correct the template to include a clarifying that Jonathan Sacks and Deborah Lipstadt are scholars who are NOT Anti-Semitic...maybe something like Organizations/Writers FIGHTING ANTI-SEMITISM would be more appropriate— Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.199.177.246 ( talk • contribs)
I know this is not considered polite, and i don't very well know an alternative, but i think the german word jude in the antisemitism picture is not quitte apropriate. (only a j perhaps like many europeans versions of the symbol. This one suggests the german stereotyping of jews is the most clear, when i would rather make the point it is actually the least clear, albeit the most obvious.) Ofcourse I trust (what is that called? judaic? israeli? ) historical analyses, but i think this invites surplus anti-germanism, hardly a way to sincerely counter discrimination , and the resent of the poor suppressed masses in general, perhaps. Neither is it representative, for what actually may have been the root cause of this anti-semitism: The general contempt of jewish and other minoritys(!?) human life. I don't mind, i don't want to be naughty either, i will try to forget of the hypocracy of this german word immediatly, (More russians died in german camps then did jews , they died there for rasist reasons.) If billions of ppl can't have it but this way, okay for me, but i think it helps not to trouble history. The J is much more representative because it was the lax rasist and antisemite attitude europewide and over many centurys that facilitated nazism and especially the jewish shoa/holocaust. Not specifically the german variety of it. If not that is the point made, what is ? 77.251.179.188 09:11, 2 September 2007 (UTC)
OK -- perhaps the deletion of Category:Anti-Semitic people was a mistake because it seems that many/most of the names formerly found in that category have now made their way over to this more general category, and now this category is positively overflowing with individuals that may or may not be personally anti-Semitic (many of them are still living; thus the potential for libel al la John Seigenthaler, Sr.). We have obvious anti-Semites rightfully categorized like Hitler & the major Nazis, the Ku Klux Klan, Holocaust deniers, and Neo-Nazis, but others are certainly more ambiguous ('anti-Zionists,' etc). For instance, in regards to ambiguity, I just removed the controversial American academic Kevin B. MacDonald from the category because it has never been definitively 'proven' that he is indeed an anti-Semite, and I have placed him under the more specific Category:Scholars of antisemitism (because he has written scholarly books on the subject of anti-Semitism). I think that it's fairly correct to say that he indeed harbors some anti-Semitic views (or views that are thought to be anti-Semitic by most), but it is not up to us here on Wikipedia to INFER things like this, but yet he continues to be wrongfully placed in this category. There is a disclaimer that states: "Adding this category to an article is in no way intended to imply that the subject of the article is antisemitic," but in all reality adding this category to an person's article is indeed tantamount to labeling a person/group/event as anti-Semitic. Others individuals in this category include Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Gilad Atzmon, Charley Reese, Lenora Fulani, Horst Mahler, and a host of others (just scroll through the category and look for individual names). Again, I think that we must be VERY CAREFUL about adding this category to the articles of living people lest Wikipedia be damaged by even more controversies that involve mislabeling/miscategorizing living people through the spreading of potentially damning information (even if it is not true!). It's best to let history decide stuff like this, I think. -- Wassermann 12:52, 5 May 2007 (UTC)
The difference between "guilty of" and "accused of" should be explicit. Since this category has loose boundaries, it seems more suited to rename it "Antisemitism polemics" or something equivalent. Pronoein ( talk) 18:08, 11 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree. By explicit I meant that whatever you think this category should be used for, its name should convey this meaning instead of a vague word that could lead - and is leading - to misinterpretations. People tagged in the Antisemitism category could be perceived as guilty or accused of antisemitism, whereas the quiproquo vanishes with more explicit category. Since it's a passionnate and sometimes hateful topic, setting in advance well-defined rules could defuse some fights to come. Pronoein ( talk) 04:10, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
This category contains articles that discuss or refer to the topic of antisemitism.
It does not imply that the subjects of any articles in the category are antisemitic.
<backdent>FYI, to anyone who passes by, I finally got around to reading Wikipedia:BLP#Categories.2C_lists_and_navigation_templates and Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Inappropriate_categories and see even in those some contradictions, incomplete material, etc. OI!! Complicated issues. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 14:28, 4 August 2010 (UTC)
I just investigated Racism talk page and found Category_talk:Racism#Removing_names_discussion and left this comment, after original comment, also in box:
- Removing names discussion
There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2010_January_18#Category:Homophobia about renaming it where it was suggested all WP:BLP names should be removed from this category and antisemitism and such ones where the tag could be considered pejorative. Dmcq ( talk) 12:35, 19 January 2010 (UTC)
- I note that the result of this discussion was: The result of the discussion was: no consensus for the proposed rename. However, because consistent consensus has been to delete categories that label people, organizations, media, etc. as "homophobic" (see, e.g., 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8) no articles for allegedly homophobic people (including fictional people), organizations, or media should exist in this category. I also note that there are serious WP:BLP concerns with adding this category to articles about living people. If this restriction cannot be adhered to, users can notify me and we can go from there. Good Ol’factory (talk) 01:48, 2 February 2010 (UTC) It seems to me that either this should be the policy for both Category:Racism and Category:Antisemitism or, to the opposite so that such accusations may be more easily identified and verified, all three should have subcategories called Category:Accusations of ____. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
So it looks like this is a topic that needs review on both Racism and Antisemtism articles. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 00:51, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
First, Wikipedia:BLPCAT#Categories.2C_lists_and_navigation_templates makes it clear that putting people in categories like this that may clearly or ambiguously infer the person has a "poor reputation" is against policy. Putting a disclaimer on the top of the category is just an end run around this issue.
Proposal: Since no people at all should be mentioned in this category, start a category called something like Category:Opponents of antisemitism or Category:Activists against antisemitism. This allows such people to be in a relevant category, and removes the problem of people possibly confusing them with people who are accused of antisemitism. Again, I personally wouldn't be opposed to a clear category for people with sufficient WP:RS accusing them of antisemitism, but that category created by someone else recently was deleted speedily and was roundly rejected at BLP talk page. CarolMooreDC ( talk) 12:59, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
The categories that related to people have been successfully deleted over the past three years; this category relates to discussions about thetopic, which is why the ADL is in this category too. I just added Abraham Foxman to the category as well, as leader of the ADL, he certainly is involved in the discussions. -- Avi ( talk) 15:46, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Carol, the issue with your suggestion is that it refers specifically to people, which is what we have been trying to avoid for years. If the category is not-people specific, it makes its application much less political and much more based on issues that depend on reliable sources' discussions and not pundits opinions. -- Avi ( talk) 16:51, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Carol, no one should be in Category:Antisemitism solely because someone "accused them of being an antisemite". But if someone writes about antisemitic topcis, or if someone's work is the subject of discussions about antisemitism, the category applies. For example, if we had two separate articles about Carlos Latuff, one "Carlos Latuff" the person and the other "Cartoons of Carlos Latuff", I would agree that the category be placed solely on the second. However, we only have one article. Moreover, the cartoons are the only reason Latuff is notable in the first place. There has been much written about the nature of the cartoons, including antisemitism, so the category needs to remain. -- Avi ( talk) 18:07, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Artur Carlos de Barros Basto, Jan Gotlib Bloch, Itzik Feffer, Abraham Foxman, Richard J. Green, Norman Hapgood, Pieter Willem van der Horst, Uriah P. Levy, Rodrigo López (physician), Solomon Lozovsky, Frederick Mayer (spy), Irène Némirovsky, John M. Oesterreicher, Aaron Sapiro, Joseph Seligman, Henri Torres, and Benjamin Zuskin are all in the category, with no implication that they are antisemitic. This is a category about articles that discuss or refer to the topic of antisemitism, nothing more; there are no "BLP implications" associated with adding it to any article. Jayjg (talk) 20:14, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
@CarolMooreDC
> Why not a new subcategory called something
> like Activists Against or Opponents of Antisemitism
because arguing about peoples' political aims, real, alleged, or constructed, either by themselves or their opponents, is bound to cause endless POV related disruption. In my native Germany, the most prominent Nazi rag, the National-Zeitung, regularly finds pleasure having their Jewish writers write, particularly when it's about 'Zionism' or Israel. Their goal is the same as is Mahmud Ahmadinedjad's, when he invites both European Neo-Nazis and Jewish representatives to his Teheran conference on the Holocaust. Both the National-Zeitung and the Iranian president claim not to be antisemites, and so do their Jewish collaborators--so, what should we do? While there should be consensus encyclopedically (...in an ideal world), politically, there's hardly such thing about what is or not and who is opposing or supporting. More often than not, one group accuses the other of antisemitism, and it's not on us to sort that out. As long as, say, both Latuff and the ADL are filed under [Antisemitism] we're on the safe side, everything else leads to surefire mayhem. --
tickle
me 01:15, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Categorization_of_people#Category_namespace_templates reads: This category may inappropriately label persons. See Wikipedia:categorization of people for advice on how to apply categorization to articles relating to people. How does this not relate to this category? CarolMooreDC ( talk) 19:39, 31 August 2010 (UTC)
Per Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2011_February_9#Bias_categories I have changed the blue header box. I found out from someone who may be using a bot removing a BLP from the article. Not sure how it works. But let's all comply with policy :-) CarolMooreDC ( talk) 22:46, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
The category is not for branding. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is part of the category. The ADL combats anti-Semitism and other forms of racism. Its being part of the category doesn't mean it is being branded as anti-Semitic. It means that the ADL is relevant to anti-Semitism. It is reasonable to have the ADL as part of the category. We've got to respect the good sense of the reader. We can't worry that the reader who will look at the page for three seconds and leave with a distorted view. That could happen with any reader who looks at any page for three second. Iss246 ( talk) 15:52, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
No. That is an exaggerated interpretation of my position. In the 1930s, my paternal grandfather, a Jewish immigrant from Breslau (now Wroclaw), ran a candy store in the Bushwick section of Brooklyn, then a German-American neighborhood. He was the target of the German-American Bund, a pro-Nazi organization that tried to put him out of business. Do my grandfather's (and father's) travails belong in the category? Of course not. But does Adolf Eichmann belong in the category? He sure does. Does the ADL belong in the category? It sure does, but for the reason that it works to combat anti-Semitism. We have to consider the historical positions of the actors, organizations, and governments. Iss246 ( talk) 16:42, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
I add this. I appreciate that Pieter Kuiper does not want to make the category of anti-Semitism become laden with subjectivity. I can imagine that a Wikipedia user may want to take a kind of "revenge" on a historical figure whom the user believes crossed the line into anti-Semitism. A problem such as this can apply to any category that bears on some unfortunate dogma that targets entire group of people (e.g., racism). I think that as long-term contributors to Wikipedia we can productively use the historical record to build the category of anti-Semitism into one that reasonably reflects on important figures, organizations, governments, events, etc. that bear significantly on anti-Semitism. Iss246 ( talk) 17:35, 18 March 2012 (UTC)
Why isn't Anti-Zionism a category of Antisemitism? It is well recognised as the principal contemporary manifestation of Jew hatred and has been since Patrick Moynihan and Chaim Herzog's speeches at the UN. [1]
References
Cpsoper ( talk) 18:22, 20 June 2014 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Should Category:Antisemitism and its various subcategories, per this 2011 CFD, continue to include the language that "It must not include articles about individuals, groups or media that are allegedly antisemitic" despite the reality that it does, in practice, include individuals and groups that are, per WP:V and WP:RS, allegedly antisemitic? -- Kendrick7 talk 05:28, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
I am open to discussion on the matter -- Kendrick7 talk 05:46, 23 June 2014 (UTC)
As much as I hate to make an ad hitlerum argument, if it is the will of the project to remove Adolf Hitler from this category's subcategories, I'll abide by it. I would suggest instead that evil actually does exist and has existed in this world, and just saying it's "bias" is a complete and total intellectual cop-out. -- Kendrick7 talk
Also I think we need a clearer definition of "Anti". For example, Anti-Catholicism starts with: "Anti-Catholicism is hostility towards, or opposition to Catholicism". That seems odd to me, because aren't hostility and opposition entirely different concepts? When "Anti" is defined more clearly (e.g. something with denial of basic human rights), then people can be classified as "Anti" more easily as well. Marcocapelle ( talk) 06:12, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
I think the alternative proposed above of "anti-semitic crimes" or something similar is an interesting way to go. Clearly, Hitler is not known as an anti-Semite because he ranted and raved about it, he took and directed specific action - indeed all Nazi's could be fairly painted with the same brush, so you could just put the whole Nazi category under "Groups which undertook anti-semitic activities" - we can come up with better wording - but it has to be something more than "made a speech that caused the ADL to brand him as anti-semite". We've been in discussion at the LGBT project about creating something called Anti-gay activists - which is I think an interesting way to classify people like Fred Phelps - he's not just a guy who has a few homophobic sentiments, he has been open about his activism against gay people. I wonder if "Activists promoting anti-semitism" could work? Just throwing out ideas - I think the problem is classifying someone purely on their beliefs esp when such beliefs are often considered pejorative, but if you can find something they did - e.g. committed a crime in the name of anti-semitism, or otherwise were activist in promoting anti-Semitism, then you have a better basis for a category.- Obi-Wan Kenobi ( talk) 14:22, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
Here are my comments on the CfD:
1) The proposer, Roscelese, did not propose banning the adding of individuals, organizations, media, etc. from the bias categories. Her proposal simply asked for consensus on making the bias categories uniform by taking a "unified approach" to them.
2) Roscelese herself does not !vote in favor of not listing "individuals, orgs, etc.".
3) Eighteen editors expressed an opinion on the "unified approach" proposal: Eleven supporting—Roscelese, CarolMooreDC, Good Ol'factory, dmcq, Kaldari, Dezidor, Joe Decker, Nick Levinson, Moni3, Geometry guy and SandyGeorgia; Seven opposing— Avi, Debresser, Rainbowofpeace, Gnangarra, Jayjg, Jack Cox and Ricardianman.
4) Of the eleven supporting !votes, six also supported banning individuals, orgs, etc., from the bias categories: CaroleMooreDC, Good Ol'factory, and Dezidor explicitly, and Nick Levinson, Moni3, and SandyGeorgia by recommending that the bias categories be deleted entirely. (Of the seven oppose !votes, none support banning individuals & orgs, etc.)
5) (The support !vote of dmcq is ambiguous: he says he approves of banning individuals, but appreciates having a "category of people convicted of anti-homosexual crimes".)
6) If you include the !vote of dmcq, there are seven !votes that support not naming individuals, orgs, etc., in bias categories.
7) Seven divided by eighteen is 39%, not even a simple majority of the !vote.
8) The finding by the closer, Timrollpickering, of "Consensus for a unified approach to these categories" is supportable—of eighteen !votes, eleven supported a "unified approach" (consistency is a good thing, right?).
9) The finding by the closer, Timrollpickering, of "most support to ban individuals & organisations", is manifestly incorrect and false—only six (or seven) out of eighteen editors expressed such support.
10) Any action taken on the basis of this manifestly erroneous claim of consensus (i.e. "most support to ban individuals & organisations") is surely invalid.
11) In addition, the closing admin had no warrant to make a determination on anything but the question posed by Roscelese: whether to take a unified approach to bias categories (and not on how to make the bias categories uniform).
— 71.178.50.222 ( talk) 01:50, 22 January 2014 (UTC)
And I agree that hardly adds up to consensus for the current language here. And we must consider that the outcome has been constantly ignored in practice ever since. No one ran off guns a-blazing to remove Hitler or Goebbels from this category, or else perhaps there might have been some backlash. And since no attempt to purge this category was carried out at the time (as the closing admin basically took a position no one actually asked for), editors who help maintain articles in this category were never made pointedly aware of the admin's decision so as to appeal it to WP:DRV in a timely manner. WP:CONSENSUS isn't something which occurs in smokey back rooms, and gets stuck in the back of a filing cabinet, only to be trotted out years later with the cry of "oh, but this has always been consensus." If you agree, help me strike down this silly rule. -- Kendrick7 talk 02:35, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
... only for editors who are against the idea that anti-Semitism exists to try and game the system by lumping it in with a whole bunch of other categories that happen to begin with the participle "anti" and pretending that makes them all "bias categories" as if that were a thing. And then the discussion gets closed by a bot? Is there no WP:JANITOR willing to stick their neck out on the line and admit that Adolph Hitler was an anti-Semite? This isn't hard people. -- Kendrick7 talk 07:37, 24 July 2014 (UTC)
Considering that the above RFC ended with "no consensus", can it please be explained why that mass edits are taking place that state "rm category; per closure of recent RfC, no person or group can be categorized as anti-Semitic Category_talk:Antisemitism#RFC_on_purging_individuals_and_groups". 165.166.215.220 ( talk) 08:01, 2 September 2014 (UTC)
Being confident that I've given everyone involved fair warning, whether or not you liked the way I phrased the RfC, or how exactly the closing admin understood it, that the original CfD is still in play, I am nevertheless resuming the purge the CfD originally called for until such a time as the language is removed from this, the parent category. -- Kendrick7 talk 05:49, 10 September 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, I know, anyone here who reads this will find it to be pointless, but a Semite is a thing, and that thing is not Jewish. If you are anti-Arab, you are anti-Semite, and that is just the most prominent example. We are supposed to write articles to the reader who has no previous knowledge of the topic. The beginning of this article defines that which a Semite is by defining its opposite. And yet, taking that on good value, appraising that with good faith, leaves nothing and leads nowhere in relation to a wealth of information. Now people here are going to say that doesn't matter because we are sourcing information and we follow it to the sources. But in fact we are democratising sources, lending more weight to the bigger present-day swing. But there are some sources and facts which stretch back and are more significant. That significance is not about whose name gets scrawled on a wall after you beat each other up, but it is simply about who and what we are from before we had an influence, and that is a lot more important and significant and notable no matter how much spam the wars and their props receive! ~ R. T. G 20:48, 8 September 2014 (UTC)
"Antisemite" is not a real word. It is a fake British word. The real spelling is anti-Semitism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 61.70.33.90 ( talk) 08:13, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
Recently, an editor took this category out of the Racism category; this was reverted with an edit summary implying that it's obvious that antisemitism is racism. I think anthropologists count only three races, White, Black, and Asian. Other groups that were considered races in the past are no longer considered such among scientists. I do not know how Semites, when defined in a wider sense more or less as Middle Easterners, are classified racially. Semites when defined as Jewish experience antisemitism based on Jewish birth, Jewish identification, or an appearance of seeming Jewish, so that Black Jews and converts to Judaism can experience antisemitism, and so being a Semite in the sense of being Jewish is not about race. The discussion at Category talk:Racism#2006 comments has a reply that relies on Wikipedia and on a Nazi definition. The latter has been discredited as only supporting a political agenda that was itself discredited by a war and subsequent suppression; it is not part of any consensus except among Nazis. The Wikipedia article (putting aside that Wikipedia is not a reliable source), now Race (human categorization), does not mention semites, being semitic, or antisemitism. I don't object to removing this category from the Racism category but, if an alternative is preferred, clarifying language can be added to the Racism category page in order to encompass this category and perhaps others. Nick Levinson ( talk) 00:53, 24 March 2016 (UTC)
Re my edits removing Discrimination and Racism, their recent reversion [5] [6] by PanchoS, and my removing them again...
WP:SUBCAT is fairly clear on this: "a page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category".
@ PanchoS: if you think the existing hierarchy of Category:Anti-national sentiment, Category:Racism and Category:Discrimination is wrong, then please fix it first. I make no assertions as to the validity of the existing hierachy, only that we should abide by WP:SUBCAT. Mitch Ames ( talk) 13:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)
focus on correctly covering all relevant aspects of antisemitism— I'm not sure this make sense in this context. Category:Antisemitism can include (directly or indirectly) all categories and articles related to antisemitism, so the category "covers all relevant aspects". But that does not require that Category:Antisemitism be directly listed in grandparent categories (supercats of supercats of Category:Antisemitism), such as Discrimination and Racism.
/info/en/?search=Talk:Jackie_Walker_(activist)#Request_for_comment_can_we_say_Jackie_Walker_is_Jewish Slatersteven ( talk) 13:39, 20 November 2018 (UTC)