| Line 73: | Line 73: | ||
:Why not 26 27 26 20 or even 33 30 12 25? What's the source for other nations having close to equal distribution? I'd expect a 25 25 25 25 arrangement to be quite unlikely in a random country. I could infer from this source that Romanians weren't the 4th by population, and probably not the 1st (or it would be stated outright), but not much else. [[User:Daß Wölf|Daß Wölf]] ([[User talk:Daß Wölf|talk]]) 00:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC) |
:Why not 26 27 26 20 or even 33 30 12 25? What's the source for other nations having close to equal distribution? I'd expect a 25 25 25 25 arrangement to be quite unlikely in a random country. I could infer from this source that Romanians weren't the 4th by population, and probably not the 1st (or it would be stated outright), but not much else. [[User:Daß Wölf|Daß Wölf]] ([[User talk:Daß Wölf|talk]]) 00:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC) |
||
:: What you have written mathematically is acceptable, unlike, the former counter-demonstration attempt. Since the relevant info was an alleged ESTIMATION, there is no right to deteriorate or calculate or modify more than the source suggests, if we want to be totally fair. In there is not any further info in the source, fairly we have to estimate 25% for everybody, otherwise it would be an OR++. We could discuss about such if i.e. the author would also tell us more or would suggest a different ratio to any nation. The source is Antonius Wrancius: Expeditionis Solymani in Moldaviam et Transsylvaniam libri duo. De situ Transsylvaniae, Moldaviae et Transalpinae liber tertius. |
|||
== Lumping together suspected and confirmed terrorist attacks in various lists == |
== Lumping together suspected and confirmed terrorist attacks in various lists == |
||
Revision as of 01:55, 14 October 2016
| Welcome to the no original research noticeboard | ||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||||
|
Additional notes:
| ||||||||||
| To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:
| ||||||||||
Synthesis and context
Have I improperly synthesised a new conclusion here? Can 'suitable for classroom and age-appropriate' be faithfully interpreted as 'may include some sexual instructions or explicit content' in this specific circumstance? I believe its the same thing, not a new conclusion or something taken out of context, considering that the context is a review of a government funded anti-LGBTI bullying program in the national spotlight occurring as a direct response to claims by politicians that the program was overly sexualised. - Shiftchange ( talk) 15:10, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right noticeboard for this kind of thing, but the entire article appears to be based on the subject's website; there are no other sources cited. Parts of the article read like promotional material ("At the age of 13, Riniti started his innate ability to set and achieve long-term, personal and professional goals."), others are phrased in a non-neutral way ("On December 27, 2014 Anthony S. Riniti married the love of his life"). It looks like the article was written by Riniti himself or someone close to him. 93.128.130.50 ( talk) 10:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing this out. At the very least it needs rewriting, but as I had trouble finding good sources I doubt it is notable. Put it up for AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chef Anton. AIRcorn (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Pixelization article
As seen here, here, here, here and here, Sarrena keeps adding "mosaic processing" material to the Pixelization article...without adding sources to support the content. On his or her talk page, I warned the editor about adding unsourced content. Mosaic is not the same thing as pixelization. Yet Sarrena added a source, this mosaic source, to support his or her wording of "or by arranging together small colored pieces or cells." That source doesn't even state "cells." I've brought the matter here for input. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:33, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Any solutions? I'd rather not take this to WP:ANI, but the editor doesn't listen or really discuss. Even if the editor were to discuss, I don't see that discussion with the editor will help anything. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hamas charter and Likud platform comparison
There is a dispute as to if the inclusion of a comparison to Likud's platform to the Hamas charter at Hamas. The difference in views can be seen in this diff. The sources used to justify are for comparing to Likud, to Gush Emunim and Likud. The last source, while discussing extreme religious views in charters or platforms that are often cited but just as often ignored by the politicians, gives quotes from the Hamas charter and then gives quotes from the Likud charter, with both quotes laying claim to all of historic Palestine (the river to the sea maximalist position on either side). Is it SYNTH to say that both Likud and Hamas' charter/platform make the same claim to all of Palestine based on these sources? nableezy - 19:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's Synth as none of the sources describe Hamas and Likud's charters as similar, unlike the text, which describes them as mirrors of one another. It's also Undue.
Drsmoo (
talk) 20:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Let's just listen to external, neutral reviewers. Thanks
Nishidani (
talk) 20:09, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- That would be helpful. I've also notified the other involved editors.
Drsmoo (
talk) 20:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- In my opinion, saying two charters are compatible means that the entire charter is comparable, not just one part. Most charters, constitutions, party platforms, declarations of independence are comparable in some aspects, but that doesn't mean you'd say the charters are comparable, but a part of the charter is. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 20:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- That would be helpful. I've also notified the other involved editors.
Drsmoo (
talk) 20:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Let's just listen to external, neutral reviewers. Thanks
Nishidani (
talk) 20:09, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Volaticotheres
Falconfly, who has a history of making claims not supported by the sources he cites (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Falconfly), has repeatedly edited pages relating to Volaticotherini with references to his pet hypothesis that volaticotheres were capable of powered flight. In particular, he has posted reconstructions of three taxa, Argentoconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Triconolestes with fully-developed wings. All published sources on Volaticotherium and Argentoconodon have consistently referred to them as gliders similar to flying squirrels, incapable of powered flight, and reconstructed them as such. There is also a somewhat grayer area regarding whether a source refuted an older source adequately. Ornithopsis ( talk) 12:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- First, I am following what Meng et al describes (large patagia, incomplete hand with long proximal phalanges; he does mention the absence of a pterosaur-like wing-finger, but this has already been addressed with the fact that the Ichthyoconodon image can be interpreted as a styliform); tellingly, evading this has been a consistent aspect of these conversations on your part. Second, you have been erasing legitimate information (ie that so far the evidence against long term aquatic transportation in Ichthyoconodon molars has not been properly addressed), so you cannot fault me from including said information
- First of all, Sigogneau-Russell states, and I quote, "...led us to believe that they could not have undergone long transportation and, in consequence ,that they could have belonged to a piscivorous and aquatic mammal." As the Anoual Syncline is a deltaic environment, it is possible that it could have been transported only a short distance from the shore. As you continue to ignore, Kielan-Jaworowska et al. state "co-occurence of mammalian fossils with those belonging to aquatic or semiaquatic taxa does not, in itself, indicate that the mammals were aquatic" in the context of the habitat preferences of Astroconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Dyskritodon. Moreover, as other eutriconodonts are potentially semiaquatic, it is far more likely that Ichthyoconodon was preserved in a littoral environment as a result of it swimming, than that it was an unprecedented fifth origin of powered flight in animals. Second of all, the elongate wing-supporting strut in your version of Ichthyoconodon does not resemble the styliform element in any extant glider, and there is no evidence of a styliform element of any kind in Volaticotherium, similar to the condition in some extant gliders such as colugos. Third of all, Meng et al. state "as in the pes the metacarpals and proximal phalanges are dorsally arched, with the latter being proportionally long in comparison with the former" (emphasis mine). They would have mentioned if the manus was proportionally large as in bats, and moreover, the figures in the paper clearly show that the manus is much too small to form part of a bat-like wing. Regardless, this is original research as all published sources with reconstructions of volaticotheres (e.g. Gaetano's thesis
[1]) depict them as flying squirrel or colugo-like gliders, and multiple sources have described them as gliders and even explicitly stated
[2] that no Jurassic mammals were capable of active flight. Can you provide a single source which mentions the possibility of powered flight with full wings in volaticotheres?
Ornithopsis (
talk) 18:42, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sources on the Anoual being a delta? Men 2006 and Sigogneau-Russell 1995 both describe it as "littoral", which is a term usually not applied to deltaic environments. And this feature of Ichtyoconodon's dentition is not noted in other mammal fossils from the region (
Gobiconodon,
Hahnodon, et cetera). Second, it is a slightly longer versin than flying squirrel styliforms. Third, A) bats similarly have phalanges adapte for grasping due to their maneuverable flight style, B) the Bicklemann 2015 paper distinguish between "volant" and "arboreal" Mesozoic mammal ecologies.
Falconfly (
talk) 14:20, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's stated to be deltaic in Kielan-Jaworowska et al. (page 55)
[3]. Second, your reconstruction of Ichthyoconodon has a styliform element roughly 1.7 times the length of the arm, whereas both giant flying squirrels and the aberrant theropod Yi have a ratio of around 0.7--that's a difference well outside the bounds of "slightly longer". Third, I fail to see how bats having manus adapted for grasping is relevant here. Finally, volant means "able to fly or glide," so Bicklemann et al. saying that Volaticotherium was volant does not support your argument. You continue to be unable to show a single source which even implies active flight, elongate styliforms, or batlike wings in any volaticothere, whereas I have provided multiple sources which explicitly contradict your claims. Your claims are wrong, and even if they were remotely plausible, they would still be OR.
Ornithopsis (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- A) No citacion. B), erroneous terminology (note also volant ecologies, seperated from arboreal, which a gliding animal should fit in). C) Your pettiness is amusing. (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Note that "volant" has been used for gliding species in the technical literature, including flying squirrels and gliding treefrogs (though it's more common in older literature). Though I regard it as sloppy terminology, it raises the possibility that Bicklemann et al 2015 were using it in this manner (especially since that was not the subject of their paper, and people can often mess up terms from other fields). The portion of the paper you're quoting has a string of references after it; if they meant powered flight, one of those references should explicitly support that claim (or they were sloppy with references). A claim of truly powered flight needs something more than a drive-by terminology drop in a marginally related paper. HCA ( talk) 22:32, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless, you've continued to be unable to provide a source that explicitly states volaticotheres were capable of powered flight (yet you call out Ornithopsis for evading information and not providing citations). As you've continuously avoided acknowledging, it's WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH, and Wikipedia is not the place for that. Shuvuuia ( talk) 01:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- What do you want a citation for? I, unlike you, can provide references which support my claims. The Bickelmann paper also lists "scansorial" as separate from arboreal, so I would be cautious in taking their mentioning separate ecologies as particularly meaningful. Ornithopsis ( talk) 01:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- A) No citacion. B), erroneous terminology (note also volant ecologies, seperated from arboreal, which a gliding animal should fit in). C) Your pettiness is amusing. (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's stated to be deltaic in Kielan-Jaworowska et al. (page 55)
[3]. Second, your reconstruction of Ichthyoconodon has a styliform element roughly 1.7 times the length of the arm, whereas both giant flying squirrels and the aberrant theropod Yi have a ratio of around 0.7--that's a difference well outside the bounds of "slightly longer". Third, I fail to see how bats having manus adapted for grasping is relevant here. Finally, volant means "able to fly or glide," so Bicklemann et al. saying that Volaticotherium was volant does not support your argument. You continue to be unable to show a single source which even implies active flight, elongate styliforms, or batlike wings in any volaticothere, whereas I have provided multiple sources which explicitly contradict your claims. Your claims are wrong, and even if they were remotely plausible, they would still be OR.
Ornithopsis (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sources on the Anoual being a delta? Men 2006 and Sigogneau-Russell 1995 both describe it as "littoral", which is a term usually not applied to deltaic environments. And this feature of Ichtyoconodon's dentition is not noted in other mammal fossils from the region (
Gobiconodon,
Hahnodon, et cetera). Second, it is a slightly longer versin than flying squirrel styliforms. Third, A) bats similarly have phalanges adapte for grasping due to their maneuverable flight style, B) the Bicklemann 2015 paper distinguish between "volant" and "arboreal" Mesozoic mammal ecologies.
Falconfly (
talk) 14:20, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- First of all, Sigogneau-Russell states, and I quote, "...led us to believe that they could not have undergone long transportation and, in consequence ,that they could have belonged to a piscivorous and aquatic mammal." As the Anoual Syncline is a deltaic environment, it is possible that it could have been transported only a short distance from the shore. As you continue to ignore, Kielan-Jaworowska et al. state "co-occurence of mammalian fossils with those belonging to aquatic or semiaquatic taxa does not, in itself, indicate that the mammals were aquatic" in the context of the habitat preferences of Astroconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Dyskritodon. Moreover, as other eutriconodonts are potentially semiaquatic, it is far more likely that Ichthyoconodon was preserved in a littoral environment as a result of it swimming, than that it was an unprecedented fifth origin of powered flight in animals. Second of all, the elongate wing-supporting strut in your version of Ichthyoconodon does not resemble the styliform element in any extant glider, and there is no evidence of a styliform element of any kind in Volaticotherium, similar to the condition in some extant gliders such as colugos. Third of all, Meng et al. state "as in the pes the metacarpals and proximal phalanges are dorsally arched, with the latter being proportionally long in comparison with the former" (emphasis mine). They would have mentioned if the manus was proportionally large as in bats, and moreover, the figures in the paper clearly show that the manus is much too small to form part of a bat-like wing. Regardless, this is original research as all published sources with reconstructions of volaticotheres (e.g. Gaetano's thesis
[1]) depict them as flying squirrel or colugo-like gliders, and multiple sources have described them as gliders and even explicitly stated
[2] that no Jurassic mammals were capable of active flight. Can you provide a single source which mentions the possibility of powered flight with full wings in volaticotheres?
Ornithopsis (
talk) 18:42, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Can you point to a peer-reviewed scientific article clearly and explicitly stating that volaticotheres were or could have been capable of powered flight? If not, it's WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, period. If you feel the case is strong for this, then write it up and submit it to a paleontology journal; it's easy. But until then, unless you can directly attribute this claim to a paper (not abstract, definitely not website), it can't be included. HCA ( talk) 18:08, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
ROLLBACK needed
Can someone please ROLLBACK the edits by User:36.83.144.248 (I don't know how to use that option). All his or her edits are about adding unsourced categories regarding ethnicities, which, again have no reliable sourcing or even foundation (see (see [4]). I warned the IP on his or her talk page. Thanks. Quis separabit? 19:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Issue addressed here. Quis separabit? 12:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Interpretation of demographic proportions from a 16th-century text
The original text written by Antun Vrančić is in Latin, and the translation below is made by Ioan-Aurel Pop {in his work Religiones and Nationes in Transylvania during the 16th Century):
[Transylvania] is inhabited by three nations, Szeklers, Hungarians, Saxons; still, I would also include the Romanians, who are easily equal in number [to the others] but have no liberties, no nobility, no rights of their own, with the exception of a small number who live in the district of Haţeg, where Deceballus is believed to have had his capital, and who were ennobled during the reign of John Hunyadi, a native of those parts, because they relentlessly fought against the Turks
According to the interpretation of some fellow editors, this can be expressed by the following percentages:
- Szeklers 25%
- Hungarians 25%
- Saxons 25%
- Romanians 25%
These data can be found at History_of_Transylvania#Historical_population. Is this interpretation good? 123Steller ( talk) 15:24, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- How neat and tidy, unlike the other figures. But no, of course not. Why not 16.6666 16.6666 16.6666 50? Or maybe it was 20 20 20 40, as 'easily' could be more than. It's original research. Doug Weller talk 15:43, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, just a comment:
- On that figure almost everything is an ESTIMATION, if we do not speak about censuses. To Doug Weller: 16.6666 16.6666 16.6666 50 or 20 20 20 40 cannot be since you did not interpret good the text, and also many translations are suffering from the improper or misunderstandable translation of the original latin text. The original text says, the the number of Romanians may easily equal by the number of any other nations mentioned ONE BY ONE, not all the other nations together additive = all the nations had approx. equal distribution.( KIENGIR ( talk) 00:29, 14 October 2016 (UTC))
- Why not 26 27 26 20 or even 33 30 12 25? What's the source for other nations having close to equal distribution? I'd expect a 25 25 25 25 arrangement to be quite unlikely in a random country. I could infer from this source that Romanians weren't the 4th by population, and probably not the 1st (or it would be stated outright), but not much else. Daß Wölf ( talk) 00:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- What you have written mathematically is acceptable, unlike, the former counter-demonstration attempt. Since the relevant info was an alleged ESTIMATION, there is no right to deteriorate or calculate or modify more than the source suggests, if we want to be totally fair. In there is not any further info in the source, fairly we have to estimate 25% for everybody, otherwise it would be an OR++. We could discuss about such if i.e. the author would also tell us more or would suggest a different ratio to any nation. The source is Antonius Wrancius: Expeditionis Solymani in Moldaviam et Transsylvaniam libri duo. De situ Transsylvaniae, Moldaviae et Transalpinae liber tertius.
Lumping together suspected and confirmed terrorist attacks in various lists
See for example List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a brief discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a longer discussion at User talk:JBergsma1#WP:NOR violations. Without reliable sources confirming that these are actual terrorist incidents, the lists are original research - and worse, the readers can't tell which is which. There's obviously the RS question of sources, but for terrorism we normally look for official sources. Pinging those involved in the discussion, @ NewsAndEventsGuy, Drmies, JBergsma1, EvergreenFir, and Parsley Man:. I wish we had a board that combined RS/NOR/NPOV. Doug Weller talk 15:55, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- My position: Inclusion on such lists requires that reliable sources which explicitly state that an event is terrorism. Reporting of allegations of saying "Allahu ackbar" is insufficient and inclusion based on that or similar info is
original research. Further, these lists should only contain confirmed events; suspected events should be excluded. Thank you
Doug Weller for raising this issue.
EvergreenFir
(talk) 18:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Moreso, it needs to be a source that has declaration that the act is terrorism by a government authority that has the ability to recognize that aspect. The press is not an authority for this, nor are random politicians. Agencies like the FBI, the police, etc. are the only groups that generally have this ability. --
MASEM (
t) 18:14, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Statements in the press or by the press aren't sufficient.
Doug Weller
talk 18:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Most good RS won't declare it terrorism unless officials do (NYTimes would say "possible" or "suspected" often), but making that requirement that it needs to be from an official agency clear makes sense to me. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Statements in the press or by the press aren't sufficient.
Doug Weller
talk 18:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Moreso, it needs to be a source that has declaration that the act is terrorism by a government authority that has the ability to recognize that aspect. The press is not an authority for this, nor are random politicians. Agencies like the FBI, the police, etc. are the only groups that generally have this ability. --
MASEM (
t) 18:14, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Shooting of James Boyd
Shooting of James Boyd ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I would like to request some outside help with the above article. The core issue as I see it is original research. To set the background, this was a very controversial shooting in a town with a history of police violence, and which triggered a finding by the state attorney general that the police department brought charges against the district attorney "for political purposese" after she filed charged against the police officers who shot him.
Much of the secondary source coverage deals with lapel video -- whether or not Boyd was turning when shot, whether or not this meant he was surrendering, etc. Furthermore most of the coverage was provided by a television station, which live streamed the trial.
The most important question is how to handle the differing transcriptions. A key piece of evidence is what exactly one of the shooters meant when he said "this fucking lunatic? I am going to shoot him in the penis with a beanbag shotgun here in a minute." Or possibly "in the pecker" as some testified at trial, although I am not certain whether this is a difference in transcription or recollection. A state police officer also said under oath that the shooter, APD Detective Keith Sandy, said "with a beanbag shotgun" but I just don't hear that, though the officer had with him a beanbag shotgun and a Taser shotgun, so it is possible that this is what he meant and the other officer understood. What Sandy actually shot him with was a rifle, which may have escaped the notice of some of the people protesting this death not being called a first-degree murder. I don't really care which gets used; the significance to me was that it was said before the officer made contact with him.
I have an opinion about this shooting, which I have stated on the talk page, but my primary goal is accuracy in the Wikipedia article. The other editor who has been working on this article says the same, but his definition of accuracy seem to me to be "validating the opinion that of course the officers did nothing wrong." It seems more complicated than that to me -- these officers seem to have received training contrary to their SOP manual; what are we to make of that? We can't just revert to secondary sources only as we both agree that several of them are wrong, including the initial Associated Press account.
So. I would like some help, please, in sorting this out. I am not going to mention names here as this question is really what *are* we supposed to do, and I may yet need to do an ANI or NPOV report on an editor, so I would like to keep the matters separate. Thanks for any input. Elinruby ( talk) 21:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
| Line 73: | Line 73: | ||
:Why not 26 27 26 20 or even 33 30 12 25? What's the source for other nations having close to equal distribution? I'd expect a 25 25 25 25 arrangement to be quite unlikely in a random country. I could infer from this source that Romanians weren't the 4th by population, and probably not the 1st (or it would be stated outright), but not much else. [[User:Daß Wölf|Daß Wölf]] ([[User talk:Daß Wölf|talk]]) 00:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC) |
:Why not 26 27 26 20 or even 33 30 12 25? What's the source for other nations having close to equal distribution? I'd expect a 25 25 25 25 arrangement to be quite unlikely in a random country. I could infer from this source that Romanians weren't the 4th by population, and probably not the 1st (or it would be stated outright), but not much else. [[User:Daß Wölf|Daß Wölf]] ([[User talk:Daß Wölf|talk]]) 00:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC) |
||
:: What you have written mathematically is acceptable, unlike, the former counter-demonstration attempt. Since the relevant info was an alleged ESTIMATION, there is no right to deteriorate or calculate or modify more than the source suggests, if we want to be totally fair. In there is not any further info in the source, fairly we have to estimate 25% for everybody, otherwise it would be an OR++. We could discuss about such if i.e. the author would also tell us more or would suggest a different ratio to any nation. The source is Antonius Wrancius: Expeditionis Solymani in Moldaviam et Transsylvaniam libri duo. De situ Transsylvaniae, Moldaviae et Transalpinae liber tertius. |
|||
== Lumping together suspected and confirmed terrorist attacks in various lists == |
== Lumping together suspected and confirmed terrorist attacks in various lists == |
||
Revision as of 01:55, 14 October 2016
| Welcome to the no original research noticeboard | ||||||||||
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| ||||||||||
|
Additional notes:
| ||||||||||
| To start a new request, enter a name (section header) for your request below:
| ||||||||||
Synthesis and context
Have I improperly synthesised a new conclusion here? Can 'suitable for classroom and age-appropriate' be faithfully interpreted as 'may include some sexual instructions or explicit content' in this specific circumstance? I believe its the same thing, not a new conclusion or something taken out of context, considering that the context is a review of a government funded anti-LGBTI bullying program in the national spotlight occurring as a direct response to claims by politicians that the program was overly sexualised. - Shiftchange ( talk) 15:10, 19 September 2016 (UTC)
Not sure if this is the right noticeboard for this kind of thing, but the entire article appears to be based on the subject's website; there are no other sources cited. Parts of the article read like promotional material ("At the age of 13, Riniti started his innate ability to set and achieve long-term, personal and professional goals."), others are phrased in a non-neutral way ("On December 27, 2014 Anthony S. Riniti married the love of his life"). It looks like the article was written by Riniti himself or someone close to him. 93.128.130.50 ( talk) 10:53, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
- Thanks for pointing this out. At the very least it needs rewriting, but as I had trouble finding good sources I doubt it is notable. Put it up for AFD at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Chef Anton. AIRcorn (talk) 22:08, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Pixelization article
As seen here, here, here, here and here, Sarrena keeps adding "mosaic processing" material to the Pixelization article...without adding sources to support the content. On his or her talk page, I warned the editor about adding unsourced content. Mosaic is not the same thing as pixelization. Yet Sarrena added a source, this mosaic source, to support his or her wording of "or by arranging together small colored pieces or cells." That source doesn't even state "cells." I've brought the matter here for input. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 23:33, 29 September 2016 (UTC)
Any solutions? I'd rather not take this to WP:ANI, but the editor doesn't listen or really discuss. Even if the editor were to discuss, I don't see that discussion with the editor will help anything. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 06:22, 3 October 2016 (UTC)
Hamas charter and Likud platform comparison
There is a dispute as to if the inclusion of a comparison to Likud's platform to the Hamas charter at Hamas. The difference in views can be seen in this diff. The sources used to justify are for comparing to Likud, to Gush Emunim and Likud. The last source, while discussing extreme religious views in charters or platforms that are often cited but just as often ignored by the politicians, gives quotes from the Hamas charter and then gives quotes from the Likud charter, with both quotes laying claim to all of historic Palestine (the river to the sea maximalist position on either side). Is it SYNTH to say that both Likud and Hamas' charter/platform make the same claim to all of Palestine based on these sources? nableezy - 19:46, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's Synth as none of the sources describe Hamas and Likud's charters as similar, unlike the text, which describes them as mirrors of one another. It's also Undue.
Drsmoo (
talk) 20:06, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Let's just listen to external, neutral reviewers. Thanks
Nishidani (
talk) 20:09, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- That would be helpful. I've also notified the other involved editors.
Drsmoo (
talk) 20:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- In my opinion, saying two charters are compatible means that the entire charter is comparable, not just one part. Most charters, constitutions, party platforms, declarations of independence are comparable in some aspects, but that doesn't mean you'd say the charters are comparable, but a part of the charter is. 🔯 Sir Joseph 🍸 (talk) 20:34, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- That would be helpful. I've also notified the other involved editors.
Drsmoo (
talk) 20:21, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
- Let's just listen to external, neutral reviewers. Thanks
Nishidani (
talk) 20:09, 6 October 2016 (UTC)
Volaticotheres
Falconfly, who has a history of making claims not supported by the sources he cites (see Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Falconfly), has repeatedly edited pages relating to Volaticotherini with references to his pet hypothesis that volaticotheres were capable of powered flight. In particular, he has posted reconstructions of three taxa, Argentoconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Triconolestes with fully-developed wings. All published sources on Volaticotherium and Argentoconodon have consistently referred to them as gliders similar to flying squirrels, incapable of powered flight, and reconstructed them as such. There is also a somewhat grayer area regarding whether a source refuted an older source adequately. Ornithopsis ( talk) 12:06, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- First, I am following what Meng et al describes (large patagia, incomplete hand with long proximal phalanges; he does mention the absence of a pterosaur-like wing-finger, but this has already been addressed with the fact that the Ichthyoconodon image can be interpreted as a styliform); tellingly, evading this has been a consistent aspect of these conversations on your part. Second, you have been erasing legitimate information (ie that so far the evidence against long term aquatic transportation in Ichthyoconodon molars has not been properly addressed), so you cannot fault me from including said information
- First of all, Sigogneau-Russell states, and I quote, "...led us to believe that they could not have undergone long transportation and, in consequence ,that they could have belonged to a piscivorous and aquatic mammal." As the Anoual Syncline is a deltaic environment, it is possible that it could have been transported only a short distance from the shore. As you continue to ignore, Kielan-Jaworowska et al. state "co-occurence of mammalian fossils with those belonging to aquatic or semiaquatic taxa does not, in itself, indicate that the mammals were aquatic" in the context of the habitat preferences of Astroconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Dyskritodon. Moreover, as other eutriconodonts are potentially semiaquatic, it is far more likely that Ichthyoconodon was preserved in a littoral environment as a result of it swimming, than that it was an unprecedented fifth origin of powered flight in animals. Second of all, the elongate wing-supporting strut in your version of Ichthyoconodon does not resemble the styliform element in any extant glider, and there is no evidence of a styliform element of any kind in Volaticotherium, similar to the condition in some extant gliders such as colugos. Third of all, Meng et al. state "as in the pes the metacarpals and proximal phalanges are dorsally arched, with the latter being proportionally long in comparison with the former" (emphasis mine). They would have mentioned if the manus was proportionally large as in bats, and moreover, the figures in the paper clearly show that the manus is much too small to form part of a bat-like wing. Regardless, this is original research as all published sources with reconstructions of volaticotheres (e.g. Gaetano's thesis
[1]) depict them as flying squirrel or colugo-like gliders, and multiple sources have described them as gliders and even explicitly stated
[2] that no Jurassic mammals were capable of active flight. Can you provide a single source which mentions the possibility of powered flight with full wings in volaticotheres?
Ornithopsis (
talk) 18:42, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sources on the Anoual being a delta? Men 2006 and Sigogneau-Russell 1995 both describe it as "littoral", which is a term usually not applied to deltaic environments. And this feature of Ichtyoconodon's dentition is not noted in other mammal fossils from the region (
Gobiconodon,
Hahnodon, et cetera). Second, it is a slightly longer versin than flying squirrel styliforms. Third, A) bats similarly have phalanges adapte for grasping due to their maneuverable flight style, B) the Bicklemann 2015 paper distinguish between "volant" and "arboreal" Mesozoic mammal ecologies.
Falconfly (
talk) 14:20, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's stated to be deltaic in Kielan-Jaworowska et al. (page 55)
[3]. Second, your reconstruction of Ichthyoconodon has a styliform element roughly 1.7 times the length of the arm, whereas both giant flying squirrels and the aberrant theropod Yi have a ratio of around 0.7--that's a difference well outside the bounds of "slightly longer". Third, I fail to see how bats having manus adapted for grasping is relevant here. Finally, volant means "able to fly or glide," so Bicklemann et al. saying that Volaticotherium was volant does not support your argument. You continue to be unable to show a single source which even implies active flight, elongate styliforms, or batlike wings in any volaticothere, whereas I have provided multiple sources which explicitly contradict your claims. Your claims are wrong, and even if they were remotely plausible, they would still be OR.
Ornithopsis (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- A) No citacion. B), erroneous terminology (note also volant ecologies, seperated from arboreal, which a gliding animal should fit in). C) Your pettiness is amusing. (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Note that "volant" has been used for gliding species in the technical literature, including flying squirrels and gliding treefrogs (though it's more common in older literature). Though I regard it as sloppy terminology, it raises the possibility that Bicklemann et al 2015 were using it in this manner (especially since that was not the subject of their paper, and people can often mess up terms from other fields). The portion of the paper you're quoting has a string of references after it; if they meant powered flight, one of those references should explicitly support that claim (or they were sloppy with references). A claim of truly powered flight needs something more than a drive-by terminology drop in a marginally related paper. HCA ( talk) 22:32, 10 October 2016 (UTC)
- Regardless, you've continued to be unable to provide a source that explicitly states volaticotheres were capable of powered flight (yet you call out Ornithopsis for evading information and not providing citations). As you've continuously avoided acknowledging, it's WP:OR and/or WP:SYNTH, and Wikipedia is not the place for that. Shuvuuia ( talk) 01:23, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- What do you want a citation for? I, unlike you, can provide references which support my claims. The Bickelmann paper also lists "scansorial" as separate from arboreal, so I would be cautious in taking their mentioning separate ecologies as particularly meaningful. Ornithopsis ( talk) 01:26, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- A) No citacion. B), erroneous terminology (note also volant ecologies, seperated from arboreal, which a gliding animal should fit in). C) Your pettiness is amusing. (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- It's stated to be deltaic in Kielan-Jaworowska et al. (page 55)
[3]. Second, your reconstruction of Ichthyoconodon has a styliform element roughly 1.7 times the length of the arm, whereas both giant flying squirrels and the aberrant theropod Yi have a ratio of around 0.7--that's a difference well outside the bounds of "slightly longer". Third, I fail to see how bats having manus adapted for grasping is relevant here. Finally, volant means "able to fly or glide," so Bicklemann et al. saying that Volaticotherium was volant does not support your argument. You continue to be unable to show a single source which even implies active flight, elongate styliforms, or batlike wings in any volaticothere, whereas I have provided multiple sources which explicitly contradict your claims. Your claims are wrong, and even if they were remotely plausible, they would still be OR.
Ornithopsis (
talk) 14:02, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- Sources on the Anoual being a delta? Men 2006 and Sigogneau-Russell 1995 both describe it as "littoral", which is a term usually not applied to deltaic environments. And this feature of Ichtyoconodon's dentition is not noted in other mammal fossils from the region (
Gobiconodon,
Hahnodon, et cetera). Second, it is a slightly longer versin than flying squirrel styliforms. Third, A) bats similarly have phalanges adapte for grasping due to their maneuverable flight style, B) the Bicklemann 2015 paper distinguish between "volant" and "arboreal" Mesozoic mammal ecologies.
Falconfly (
talk) 14:20, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
- First of all, Sigogneau-Russell states, and I quote, "...led us to believe that they could not have undergone long transportation and, in consequence ,that they could have belonged to a piscivorous and aquatic mammal." As the Anoual Syncline is a deltaic environment, it is possible that it could have been transported only a short distance from the shore. As you continue to ignore, Kielan-Jaworowska et al. state "co-occurence of mammalian fossils with those belonging to aquatic or semiaquatic taxa does not, in itself, indicate that the mammals were aquatic" in the context of the habitat preferences of Astroconodon, Ichthyoconodon, and Dyskritodon. Moreover, as other eutriconodonts are potentially semiaquatic, it is far more likely that Ichthyoconodon was preserved in a littoral environment as a result of it swimming, than that it was an unprecedented fifth origin of powered flight in animals. Second of all, the elongate wing-supporting strut in your version of Ichthyoconodon does not resemble the styliform element in any extant glider, and there is no evidence of a styliform element of any kind in Volaticotherium, similar to the condition in some extant gliders such as colugos. Third of all, Meng et al. state "as in the pes the metacarpals and proximal phalanges are dorsally arched, with the latter being proportionally long in comparison with the former" (emphasis mine). They would have mentioned if the manus was proportionally large as in bats, and moreover, the figures in the paper clearly show that the manus is much too small to form part of a bat-like wing. Regardless, this is original research as all published sources with reconstructions of volaticotheres (e.g. Gaetano's thesis
[1]) depict them as flying squirrel or colugo-like gliders, and multiple sources have described them as gliders and even explicitly stated
[2] that no Jurassic mammals were capable of active flight. Can you provide a single source which mentions the possibility of powered flight with full wings in volaticotheres?
Ornithopsis (
talk) 18:42, 8 October 2016 (UTC)
At the end of the day, it comes down to this: Can you point to a peer-reviewed scientific article clearly and explicitly stating that volaticotheres were or could have been capable of powered flight? If not, it's WP:OR or WP:SYNTH, period. If you feel the case is strong for this, then write it up and submit it to a paleontology journal; it's easy. But until then, unless you can directly attribute this claim to a paper (not abstract, definitely not website), it can't be included. HCA ( talk) 18:08, 9 October 2016 (UTC)
ROLLBACK needed
Can someone please ROLLBACK the edits by User:36.83.144.248 (I don't know how to use that option). All his or her edits are about adding unsourced categories regarding ethnicities, which, again have no reliable sourcing or even foundation (see (see [4]). I warned the IP on his or her talk page. Thanks. Quis separabit? 19:28, 11 October 2016 (UTC)
- Issue addressed here. Quis separabit? 12:22, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Interpretation of demographic proportions from a 16th-century text
The original text written by Antun Vrančić is in Latin, and the translation below is made by Ioan-Aurel Pop {in his work Religiones and Nationes in Transylvania during the 16th Century):
[Transylvania] is inhabited by three nations, Szeklers, Hungarians, Saxons; still, I would also include the Romanians, who are easily equal in number [to the others] but have no liberties, no nobility, no rights of their own, with the exception of a small number who live in the district of Haţeg, where Deceballus is believed to have had his capital, and who were ennobled during the reign of John Hunyadi, a native of those parts, because they relentlessly fought against the Turks
According to the interpretation of some fellow editors, this can be expressed by the following percentages:
- Szeklers 25%
- Hungarians 25%
- Saxons 25%
- Romanians 25%
These data can be found at History_of_Transylvania#Historical_population. Is this interpretation good? 123Steller ( talk) 15:24, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- How neat and tidy, unlike the other figures. But no, of course not. Why not 16.6666 16.6666 16.6666 50? Or maybe it was 20 20 20 40, as 'easily' could be more than. It's original research. Doug Weller talk 15:43, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, just a comment:
- On that figure almost everything is an ESTIMATION, if we do not speak about censuses. To Doug Weller: 16.6666 16.6666 16.6666 50 or 20 20 20 40 cannot be since you did not interpret good the text, and also many translations are suffering from the improper or misunderstandable translation of the original latin text. The original text says, the the number of Romanians may easily equal by the number of any other nations mentioned ONE BY ONE, not all the other nations together additive = all the nations had approx. equal distribution.( KIENGIR ( talk) 00:29, 14 October 2016 (UTC))
- Why not 26 27 26 20 or even 33 30 12 25? What's the source for other nations having close to equal distribution? I'd expect a 25 25 25 25 arrangement to be quite unlikely in a random country. I could infer from this source that Romanians weren't the 4th by population, and probably not the 1st (or it would be stated outright), but not much else. Daß Wölf ( talk) 00:41, 14 October 2016 (UTC)
- What you have written mathematically is acceptable, unlike, the former counter-demonstration attempt. Since the relevant info was an alleged ESTIMATION, there is no right to deteriorate or calculate or modify more than the source suggests, if we want to be totally fair. In there is not any further info in the source, fairly we have to estimate 25% for everybody, otherwise it would be an OR++. We could discuss about such if i.e. the author would also tell us more or would suggest a different ratio to any nation. The source is Antonius Wrancius: Expeditionis Solymani in Moldaviam et Transsylvaniam libri duo. De situ Transsylvaniae, Moldaviae et Transalpinae liber tertius.
Lumping together suspected and confirmed terrorist attacks in various lists
See for example List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a brief discussion at Talk:List of terrorist incidents, 2016 and a longer discussion at User talk:JBergsma1#WP:NOR violations. Without reliable sources confirming that these are actual terrorist incidents, the lists are original research - and worse, the readers can't tell which is which. There's obviously the RS question of sources, but for terrorism we normally look for official sources. Pinging those involved in the discussion, @ NewsAndEventsGuy, Drmies, JBergsma1, EvergreenFir, and Parsley Man:. I wish we had a board that combined RS/NOR/NPOV. Doug Weller talk 15:55, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- My position: Inclusion on such lists requires that reliable sources which explicitly state that an event is terrorism. Reporting of allegations of saying "Allahu ackbar" is insufficient and inclusion based on that or similar info is
original research. Further, these lists should only contain confirmed events; suspected events should be excluded. Thank you
Doug Weller for raising this issue.
EvergreenFir
(talk) 18:09, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Moreso, it needs to be a source that has declaration that the act is terrorism by a government authority that has the ability to recognize that aspect. The press is not an authority for this, nor are random politicians. Agencies like the FBI, the police, etc. are the only groups that generally have this ability. --
MASEM (
t) 18:14, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Statements in the press or by the press aren't sufficient.
Doug Weller
talk 18:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- I can agree to that. Most good RS won't declare it terrorism unless officials do (NYTimes would say "possible" or "suspected" often), but making that requirement that it needs to be from an official agency clear makes sense to me. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:16, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Agreed. Statements in the press or by the press aren't sufficient.
Doug Weller
talk 18:51, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Moreso, it needs to be a source that has declaration that the act is terrorism by a government authority that has the ability to recognize that aspect. The press is not an authority for this, nor are random politicians. Agencies like the FBI, the police, etc. are the only groups that generally have this ability. --
MASEM (
t) 18:14, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
Shooting of James Boyd
Shooting of James Boyd ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
I would like to request some outside help with the above article. The core issue as I see it is original research. To set the background, this was a very controversial shooting in a town with a history of police violence, and which triggered a finding by the state attorney general that the police department brought charges against the district attorney "for political purposese" after she filed charged against the police officers who shot him.
Much of the secondary source coverage deals with lapel video -- whether or not Boyd was turning when shot, whether or not this meant he was surrendering, etc. Furthermore most of the coverage was provided by a television station, which live streamed the trial.
The most important question is how to handle the differing transcriptions. A key piece of evidence is what exactly one of the shooters meant when he said "this fucking lunatic? I am going to shoot him in the penis with a beanbag shotgun here in a minute." Or possibly "in the pecker" as some testified at trial, although I am not certain whether this is a difference in transcription or recollection. A state police officer also said under oath that the shooter, APD Detective Keith Sandy, said "with a beanbag shotgun" but I just don't hear that, though the officer had with him a beanbag shotgun and a Taser shotgun, so it is possible that this is what he meant and the other officer understood. What Sandy actually shot him with was a rifle, which may have escaped the notice of some of the people protesting this death not being called a first-degree murder. I don't really care which gets used; the significance to me was that it was said before the officer made contact with him.
I have an opinion about this shooting, which I have stated on the talk page, but my primary goal is accuracy in the Wikipedia article. The other editor who has been working on this article says the same, but his definition of accuracy seem to me to be "validating the opinion that of course the officers did nothing wrong." It seems more complicated than that to me -- these officers seem to have received training contrary to their SOP manual; what are we to make of that? We can't just revert to secondary sources only as we both agree that several of them are wrong, including the initial Associated Press account.
So. I would like some help, please, in sorting this out. I am not going to mention names here as this question is really what *are* we supposed to do, and I may yet need to do an ANI or NPOV report on an editor, so I would like to keep the matters separate. Thanks for any input. Elinruby ( talk) 21:04, 13 October 2016 (UTC)