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This is talk page associated with the WikiProject assessment department page belonging to Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels. It is used as a base for those trying to assess the quality and importance of existing articles.
May I suggest that we change the examples given in the Quality Scale to novels? Grey Shadow 11:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
"the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it)" does this actually mean need (like for a school report, etc) or does it include what people merely want to look up? for example, i'm willing to bet that rosemary's baby (rated mid), being the basis for a very popular horror movie, would get more hits than lucky jim (rated high). -- dan 02:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I think importance is a terrible idea. (1) It's original research, since the editors are deciding which books are important and which aren't; (2) I don't see what the use to the readers of the encyclopedia is; and (3) the rules are unclear -- there's tons of popular fiction getting rated as "mid" that should, IMHO, be "low", but (a) I'm not particularly interested in debating it book by book and (b) what's the point if we do?
Quality is a meta-rating, which is fine, but importance is another thing altogether. TheronJ 14:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
As a new member of the project, I'm sometime finding it difficult to rate the importance, and certainly do not entirely understand the rationale behind the importance of novels as they are now. As such, I feel the need for some (semi-)objective criteria to rate the importance. Here are some thoughts I have (and please consider this a way to start a discussion):
Remember, I only write this to provoke a constructive discussion, and I would appreciate comments on my thoughts. Errabee 16:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have had a look at the importance category descriptions on this page, and they didn't help me much. The wording seemed couched entirely in terms of literary merit. But as examples, it remains to be seen whether 'Harry Potter' will have lasting literary merit. Many critics have slagged it as badly written, but to leave it out of a list of currently important books would be absurd. Or, my other example, Left hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin. I would consider it a highly interesting and influential book, yet one which most people have never heard of unless they read SF. I noticed that an attempt was made to review this book together with a number of other SF classics. The lack of response may only mean that no one (like me) had even heard of this page, but it may also reflect general disinterest in particular genre books amongst those who generally like books? So how do I place a book in the general list, which I would consider an important one in terms of its message for society, and which happens to be written in the field of SF? Sandpiper 12:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, there is a grading criteria for articles and an importance criteria for novels. Unfortunately no mention of book quality. An important book might be virtually unreadable, whereas a very good read might be wholly unremarkable in its effects upon society. What about Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, or Das Kapital by Carl Marx. Ok, perhaps not novels, though arguably works of fiction, but how does a criterion for the importance of novels, arguably meaning their influence on society, connect with an assessment of all books? Sandpiper 13:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree in general with the principles of your criteria Errabee, except I think that the position of works within the canon of an author (according to academia, literary criticism, 'best of' lists, literary awards etc.) should hold more weight than evidence of popular adaptations. In this scheme, Bleak House and David Copperfield would rate higher than Oliver Twist or A Christmas Carol. I also disagree with a limit-per-author system. There are certain prolific and very influential novelists that have more than two or three books that deserve to be rated of top importance--if you have a Dickens or an Austen shouldn't their most important books be given a higher rating than lesser novelists no matter how many there are?
As well, I think we should be careful about rating flash-in-the-pan phenomena as top priority. In my mind, it seems pretty obvious that the great works of literature should have a higher priority in this project than currently "hyper-popular" fiction. This for a few reasons: we only have so many resources available--we should focus on canonical novels that we know will be relevant ten or fifty years from now; the average Wikipedia editor and fans of the novel in question will undoubtedly work on the article without necessary intervention from the project (in other words, a mid or low rating is not equivalent to ignore and don't edit); we don't have enough objectivity to judge the value or importance of such novels--what might seem incredibly important right now might be almost unheard of given the passage of a bit of time.
Oh, and Sandpiper, I agree with you about Left Hand of Darkness. :) Ibis3 22:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Errabee, instead of replying via your talk page and escalating things into even more of a conflict, I think it would be better to try and come to some consensus among all Project members about how to handle assessment, both for new articles or novel project boxes and for novels that have already been assessed by other members.
First, I'd like to say that I've acted in good faith, so please don't get so annoyed. Second, I'd also like to point out that my ratings were on books that had not yet been assessed before and I never arbitrarily changed any of your ratings without discussion. This, I thought followed what it says on the Assessment department page:
Who can assess articles? Any member of the Novels WikiProject is free to add—or change—the rating of an article.
What if I don't agree with a rating?
You can list it in the section for assessment requests below, and someone will take a look at it. Alternately, you can ask any member of the project to rate the article again.
Perhaps we should develop a clearer procedure than this? For example, it could be as follows:
If there has to be a vote before a novel is given an assessment it will take a very long time (especially since not everyone is familiar with all genres/regions etc.). Also, there hasn't been any discussion of how much time/how many votes to wait for before making or changing an assessment. Or even what criteria are of more weight when changing an assessment. Consider Bleak House. You seem pretty intent on changing it to a High rating from Top (in fact I see that you've gone and done that very thing). Why did you do that? It was your subjective decision that it was less important than Oliver Twist, so should be rated as High. You didn't back up your assessment with any objective evidence. On the other hand, I brought forth the evaluations of respected literary critics Harold Bloom (who says himself " Bleak House, most critics now tend to agree, is his central work" (p. 289, The Western Canon)) and G. K. Chesterton.
Your repeated reversion of my Barometer Rising assessment is also problematic. On the Assessment page it says:
Note that general notability need not be from the perspective of editor demographics; generally notable topics should be rated similarly regardless of the country or region in which they hold said notability. Thus, topics which may seem obscure to a Western audience—but which are of high notability in other places—should still be highly rated.
Now, I interpreted that to mean that a book that is considered (not by me, but by authorities such as The Oxford Companion to Canadian Literature) to be a seminal work in a country's literature should be accorded a High rating. If it were given awards or recognition abroad, it would then move into the Top rating. So for example, I'd be inclined to rate Gabrielle Roy's The Tin Flute as Top, The Cashier as High, Children of My Heart as Mid. These evalutations are not arbitrary and I have references to back up my position.-- Ibis3 16:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
@Ibis3: I don't understand why you assume that replying on my talk page would result in escalating things into even more of a conflict. In fact, I think you accomplished just the opposite by replying here and mentioning individual cases which would have been better suited for an individual discussion between the both of us.
I never assumed you didn't act in good faith, and you certainly don't need to remind me of that guideline. But it seems you assume I didn't act in good faith, which is absolutely not true. In fact, I've taken an objective look at the two new top-important novels, and although I'm not convinced, I felt there was enough reason to not reduce their rating to High-importance. However, as I explained before, I felt (and still feel) there is a need to reach consensus about which novels should have which importance rating. If one bypasses the discussion, there really is no need for trying to establish consensus any more, is there? People can then just rate whatever and however they like.
About your suggestion for a new procedure. I indeed had something like that in mind, but I can't agree with your third suggestion, that in the case of no consensus it could be put at the bottom of the Assessment page as a request. Who would be available to do that new assessment? Even more so, it would then be a one-man decision and not consensus.
You said you had problems with me reverting the rating of Barometer Rising? Well, as you yourself quoted:
I interpreted the next section as applicable only to editors who are not members of this project. So I've been bold and changed it. Your revert of my change was done without any explanation and could be seen as problematic in itself. I then changed it back with explanation, so why would that be problematic? I at least tried to start a discussion (again).
Coming to the topic of ratings, I completely agree with you there should not be any cultural bias. And the current cultural bias would be that novels in the English language are given too much weight. These novels and their authors are far more likely to receive major international prizes and international attention than novels originally written in another language. These novels are generally not obscure to a Western audience. Which leads to the conclusion that if an English-writing novelist did not receive any awards outside his own country, his importance is limited. Depending on the awards, his major work (magnum opus) could be given an importance rating of high, whereas other novels, apparently in lesser regard, should then be treated to be of mid-importance. Now, if there is some other reason for the novel to be rated higher, it should be reflected in the article about the novel or about the author. In the case of Barometer Rising, there is no such evidence. The author only received national awards, and it is not his magnum opus. Hence my judgement of no more than mid-importance.
As far as Dickens is concerned, something else plays a role. The definition of Top-importance is that a novel should be a "core" topic in the field of literature OR it should be highly notable for students outside the field of literature. Both Oliver Twist and A Christmas Carol are highly notable for students outside the field of literature, Bleak House is not. Which leaves the question: is it a "core topic" in the field of literature? As I felt the discussion page was obsolete, I just changed the rating to represent the current number of votes (for all books with more than one vote, or where my vote was not opposed), not knowing about the quote from Bloom, which might have changed my mind, but the text you wrote earlier (one of the most acclaimed of Dickens' novels) didn't make me change my opinion. It indicated to me that there are several other equally important or even more important novels by Dickens.
So if you do decide to question my judgement, please do so referring to the arguments known at the time of this judgement instead of presenting new quotes. These new quotes should only be used as new arguments, which can then lead to a new rating. Currently I'm not in the mood, but you can always do it yourself.
I suggest we stop discussing about individual novels here, and continue with a general discussion. Discussion about the individual novels we disagree upon I would rather do on our individual user talk pages, as they are of no concern to others. Errabee 17:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
"Subject is a "core" topic for literature, or is highly notable to people other than students of literature.
War and Peace The Lord of the Rings Pride and Prejudice
High - Subject is more notable or significant within the field of literature and outside it.
The Name of the Rose Lucky Jim Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Mid - Subject is notable or significant within the field of literature (or to a historian), but not necessarily outside it.
Brighton Rock Rosemary's Baby The Body in the Library"
Jonathan Livingston Seagull, of which I have just been made aware, ranks higher here than one of the core works of one of the more important 20th century novelists, Mr. Greene? I've heard more about Rosemary's Baby than this seagull book, though only through the associated motion picture.
In regards to the The Lord of the Rings and the inevitable Harry Potter question, works which are quite spuriously rated among Tolstoy, is it possible that they should belong to another list or category entirely, one that would focus on volume of pages sold rather than the enjoyment or study of serious literature? As it stands now, this category of "Literature" serves two masters. I'd also like to point out that contrary to what many have written about "students of literature", there does yet exist that mythical beast--the common reader--though perhaps dying out.
-- 24.131.209.132 16:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Should any of the following be of top importance?
Note the following relatively random sample of works which are not currently ranked at top importance, all of which I would consider of considerably greater importance than any of the above (Most of which I had not even heard of, with the exception of the Camus, Titus Groan, and My Name is Red):
And that's just a vague assortment off the top of my head. john k 18:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
And I've done some shuffling as well today. But to play advocate of the devil: Max Havelaar is iconic in the Netherlands, Belgium and Indonesia, and Erast Fandorin (please do go read the novels, the first 4 have been translated into English) marks the revival of literature in the Post-Soviet era (because Russians were all reading trash novels). Also please note the note in the criteria for the importance scale: Note that general notability need not be from the perspective of editor demographics; generally notable topics should be rated similarly regardless of the country or region in which they hold said notability. Thus, topics which may seem obscure to a Western audience—but which are of high notability in other places—should still be highly rated. And I might add, as a non-native English speaker, I've never even heard of many of the novels you mentioned, not that that should be the standard (but neither should the fact that you haven't heard of those novels). Errabee 23:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to start reviewing unassessed articles, but I'm a bit bewildered by the {{ NovelsWikiProject}} template. How do you change the bit that says "The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet" to reflect that there are comments? Following the link and creating a new page does not do it. Sorry to be such a dunce! -- Merope Talk 22:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Additional thanks from someone who was puzzled but not brave enough to ask! -- Sordel 07:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Buddenbrooks The Secret Agent The Rainbow Women in Love The Glass Bead Game The Radetzky March My Ántonia The Age of Innocence As I Lay Dying Call It Sleep princess de cleves Notes from Underground The Idiot The Devils Death in Venice Buddenbrooks The Castle Moll Flanders Humphry Clinker Rameau's Nephew Manon Lescaut Candide Elective Affinities Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship Wilhelm Meister's Years of Wandering The House by the Medlar Tree Fortunata and Jacinta La Regenta The Maias Adolphe Sentimental Education L'Assommoir The Heart of Midlothian Jane Eyre A Hero of Our Time Billy Budd Little Women The Red Badge of Courage The Confession of Zeno The Immoralist Our Lady of the Flowers Nausea Effi Briest Lazarillo de Tormes Radetzky March Romance of the Three Kingdoms Simplicissimus Water Margin The Home and the World Journey to the West Dream of the Red Chamber Gargantua and Pantagruel Gil Blas Snow Country The moon and the bonfires The Setting Sun The Silent Cry The Makioka Sisters The Temple of the Golden Pavilion
Just off my head. Mandel 09:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Surely Milton's Paradise Lost should be classed as being of 'Top Importance' given its standing as one of the great poetical works ever written? The skill of Milton as a 17th Century Poet was only ever matched by Shakespeare a few years before him. I would ask that the poem's position of 'High Importance' be re-assessed with the view of it being re-classified as being of 'Top Importance'. Robsonm 14:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't find out about this importance rating of novels until today, and partly curious and partly skeptical I read this page and through the lists of novels of varying ranks. After doing so, I have the same question I had when I started: What exactly is the purpose of this rating? I have read several times that it helps in "prioritizing" but I fear that this rating will be seen as more of a end in itself rather than a means to an end (ultimately, improving Wikipedia). That is, I fear that more time will be spent debating an novel's importance than improving the article. Indeed, it seems like the very word "importance" should be replaced with the seemingly more appropriate "popular" (which, according to the first explanatory paragraph, seems to be the primary criterion).
Which leads me to another point: the two paragraphs (as they are now) completely contradict each other. The first paragraph cites popularity as the determining criteria. The second cites importance. These are clearly very different criteria. As someone with an interest in Japanese literature, I can give you a slew of novels that would rate low in popularity from the definition given on the Project page: "the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic" but high in importance with respect to their place in the canon of Japanese literature. But if you start including these novels, where does one draw the line? What if I'm an expert in postmodern Danish feminist writing and can argue for the inclusion of 15 novels in this "top" rating? At this point, what real/practical value does this rating have? Could one really argue against a given novel's importance, given this broad definition?
I like the idea of rating articles for quality, as this is something that can be assessed fairly objectively. Why not rate articles just on quality, and let interested editors search out articles they are able to improve? I fear that these ratings will be harmful first because they are ultimately subjective and probably doomed to be biased, in present form poorly defined, and ultimately run the risk of turning from descriptive to prescriptive ratings. It's well and good to rate Novel A as being important and thus in need of attention, but what does it say to someone who comes across Novel B that is rated of little or no importance? What incentive exists to improve this article? I am of the opinion that any novel deemed worthy of a Wikipedia article is of importance of some kind.
I make this comments in good faith ... but that old phrase about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions keeps ringing in my ears. I applaud the aim, but wonder if a different method could not be used. CES 00:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe this is a case of anyone putting up walls against outsiders. If you read Kevinalewis's remarks again, you will see that the importance policy is a Wikipedia one, not a novels project one specifically. Yes, it has its flaws, and it is ones that those discussing the assessment of top-importance novels keep running into. Nonetheless, if you have concerns about the assigning of importance values generally then it sounds like an issue that needs to be taken up further up the ladder as the changes would need to be implemented across Wikipedia as a whole. Whatever we institute has to fit in with Wikipedia policy. We can't just make things up for this project and expect everyone else to fall into line. If you have concerns that are project-specific, then this is obviously the place to address them. However, at this point I would ask for ideas of what you would like to see changed, and not simply complaints about the current system. If you don't like the current system, what would you like to see instead? Silverthorn 16:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
After the last discussion on all of this ( Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Novels/Assessment/Top-important), I retreated because it seemed as though we were getting nowhere. Why? Because people are going at this from different directions. The way I see it, we have to start with the rationale for having an assessment process. The rationale is not to debate the merits of particular novels, nor to create a hierarchy of literature, nor to establish some kind of Wikipedia canon of world literature. We have an assessment to determine which articles need to be included and made complete and thorough. So, all the articles that are deemed necessary must be given Top importance, all those deemed highly desirable should be given High importance, etc. There are various criteria for deeming a book to be necessary (related to why users might search for an article) - familiarity, inclusion in a canon, recognition by literary awards, inclusion in school cirricula, adaptation into other media, influence on society, politics, culture, influence on later literary works. Any novel can deserve Top importance by having a large degree of notability in any of these areas or by having a smaller degree of notability in more than one. If we assess each novel against these criteria (preferably using external sources to evaluate, not subjective opinion), it doesn't matter what other books are rated as, it doesn't matter if the majority of editors haven't heard of a book (e.g. when evaluating national or generic novels). Again and again, people want to compare books rather than evaluate or assess them on an absolute scale. It's just as important for Wikipedia to have an article about Harry Potter as about Great Expectations, though there can be no dispute that the latter is canonical and the former not so much. I don't think sorting the novels into groups is necessary--we just need to spell out some guidelines for what makes an article for a novel necessary. So maybe we could use those criteria I mentioned above and give some details about what the difference might be between, for example, Top literary award recognition (e.g. IMPAC Dublin, Nobel, Booker) and High (e.g. Pulitzer, Giller, Newbery) [after debate, we might decide that any major award winner deserves Top]. As I've said elsewhere, I think that if a novel has achieved notability outside of its sphere (international recognition for a non-American/non-British book, familiarity beyond its genre) it should be elevated from High to Top.
Then comes the question of what to do about the assessed articles. If an article is rated Top it should get some priority in monthly collaborations, it should be featured in the newsletter, etc. I notice that though there are a slew of currently Top-rated articles that have been neglected, there are low or mid rated articles asking for editors in the newsletter.-- Ibis3 20:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Could someone please review the assessment of this article. It's rated as stub-class but the article is very substantial, nothing like a stub at all. Also, though this is more subjective, it's rated low-importance which doesn't seem so nice. The novel was quite popular in Germany, was translated into many languages and made into a film, the author was one of Germany's best-known childrens' writers, and the book itself has apparently been influential. 67.117.130.181 22:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
It is assessed as the greatest novel of China all the time by most Chinese scholars. Why it only rated as Mid-importance here? Yao Ziyuan 10:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I changed the assessment to my understanding of Chinese literature and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Assessment#Importance_scale. I know many average westerners might be know little about Chinese literature as well as Chinese novels, so you might never heard of some very famous novels. That doesn't matter. It is due to the gap between western and eastern cultures. Comments are always welcome. Yao Ziyuan 12:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The criteria used for rating article importance are not meant to be an absolute or canonical view of how significant the topic is. Rather, they attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it). Thus, subjects with greater popular notability may be rated higher than topics which are arguably more "important" but which are of interest primarily to students of literature.
they attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it).
Why is this criteria set? How do you "gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic"? Note this is the 'Importance scale', not the "bestseller scale". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.6.49.48 ( talk • contribs)
Hi all. I was wondering if people consider encyclopedic content when rating the quality of articles on books. Many books have overly detailed plot summaries, which is not within the scope of Wikipedia articles. Some articles are little more than plot summaries. I didn't see a mention of this anywhere, and I was just hoping that encyclopedic content would be factored in to the quality assessment. Thanks. ~ MDD 46 96 14:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Camus' novel The Plague has been selected for this month's Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Collaboration. Since it is rated Top-importance by Project Novels, I hope you'll be able to help! -- EncycloPetey 19:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
In the last week, I have found major sections in the articles on Midnight's Children and Adam Bede to be direct and literal copies from Gradesaver and similar sources, available online, & actually cited and linked on the face of the article. (identified material has been removed, and the person inserting it warned.) There is a characteristic writing style in study guides such as these, presumably designed to impress teachers when submitted as essays. Only the most careless of teachers would be deceived when the material is used without modification--and it looks like WP is about as careless as any. These were the first two articles I checked, and a number of people have edited the article over many months without noticing. I urge editors in this project to check the articles they are working on. I intend to continue looking from time to time but do not want to take this burden for the entire content of this project. DGG ( talk) 03:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
You know that point where you just start clicking on any link shown and have no idea what's happening and start to panic? That's what I get for trying to read the instructions to do it myself. I'm trying to request another peer review for To Kill a Mockingbird. I've never archived and moved stuff, so I don't know what I've done. This makes me feel like my dad, shouting instructions at the monitor...I'm so much more hip than this, really!! Help! -- Moni3 13:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Moni3
Does this term mean review-critics or scholarly-critics or both? I've been adding lists of scholarly studies to author and book pages (especially those needing evidence of notability), but I'm not sure how I should label the section: Scholarly articles? Critical studies? Aristophanes68 ( talk) 14:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Assessment is waste of time that would be better spent improving articles. EdQuine ( talk) 14:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I noticed The Slap was rated as low importance and given it just won the Commonwealth Writers Prize I felt it deserved at least mid so increase it. I then checked last years The Book of Negroes (novel) which to my surprise was also low as was Mister Pip although the The Secret River is mid. I know we aren't talking about the Man Booker Prize but do others agree that any book having won the Commonwealth Writers Prize is likely automatically entitled to a minimum of mid or am I completely off base here and do others feel it isn't sufficient in itself (I don't do assessments and am not really a participant in any wikiproject)? Nil Einne ( talk) 16:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I just tried my first assessment ( The Faerie Wars Chronicles) and changing the class on the talk was fine, but it didn't change on the main page (the tag that says "a -class article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Did I do something wrong? Oh, and feel free to change the assessment if you think it's wrong! PrincessofLlyr ( talk) 18:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
The Monthly changes section is missing C-scale articles. Can this be added in? Derild 49 2 1 00:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I have been waiting about two days to get a rating for an article I submitted. No one is repling. Can someone do that please? I would be very grateful. Cheers! UserDarkJak495 talk orange 22:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Can someone rank my article? I would really appreciate it. Cheers! UserDarkJak495 talk orange 12:55, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Can you tell me what sections need to be worked on and expanded? And can you help with the article please? Thanks! UserDarkJak495 talk orange 20:12, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
In high importance we have 8 articles, including a Hardy Boys. In core we have only 3. I think that Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage is of greater literary importance than the Hardy Boys; the same with Ernest Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises. I think we should re-think these designations. Thoughts? Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 18:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Should editors who do not belong to this WikiProject or one of its task forces sometimes edit a Talk page to allocate an article about a book? Or always place the {Books} project banner where there is none —the most general if i understand correctly?
Should we sometimes edit a Talk page to revise quality assessment? For example, revise class=Stub to class=Start or even to class=C? If not that, what about revise class=Stub to class= [unassessed]?
I do edit Article categories and stub tags, of course. And I do edit the Talk page project banners on technical points such as needs-infobox and needs-infobox-cover. -- P64 ( talk) 19:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
WikiProject Novels/Assessment page. |
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Novels Project‑class | |||||||
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This is talk page associated with the WikiProject assessment department page belonging to Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels. It is used as a base for those trying to assess the quality and importance of existing articles.
May I suggest that we change the examples given in the Quality Scale to novels? Grey Shadow 11:56, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
"the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it)" does this actually mean need (like for a school report, etc) or does it include what people merely want to look up? for example, i'm willing to bet that rosemary's baby (rated mid), being the basis for a very popular horror movie, would get more hits than lucky jim (rated high). -- dan 02:52, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I think importance is a terrible idea. (1) It's original research, since the editors are deciding which books are important and which aren't; (2) I don't see what the use to the readers of the encyclopedia is; and (3) the rules are unclear -- there's tons of popular fiction getting rated as "mid" that should, IMHO, be "low", but (a) I'm not particularly interested in debating it book by book and (b) what's the point if we do?
Quality is a meta-rating, which is fine, but importance is another thing altogether. TheronJ 14:20, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
As a new member of the project, I'm sometime finding it difficult to rate the importance, and certainly do not entirely understand the rationale behind the importance of novels as they are now. As such, I feel the need for some (semi-)objective criteria to rate the importance. Here are some thoughts I have (and please consider this a way to start a discussion):
Remember, I only write this to provoke a constructive discussion, and I would appreciate comments on my thoughts. Errabee 16:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
I have had a look at the importance category descriptions on this page, and they didn't help me much. The wording seemed couched entirely in terms of literary merit. But as examples, it remains to be seen whether 'Harry Potter' will have lasting literary merit. Many critics have slagged it as badly written, but to leave it out of a list of currently important books would be absurd. Or, my other example, Left hand of Darkness by Ursula LeGuin. I would consider it a highly interesting and influential book, yet one which most people have never heard of unless they read SF. I noticed that an attempt was made to review this book together with a number of other SF classics. The lack of response may only mean that no one (like me) had even heard of this page, but it may also reflect general disinterest in particular genre books amongst those who generally like books? So how do I place a book in the general list, which I would consider an important one in terms of its message for society, and which happens to be written in the field of SF? Sandpiper 12:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Also, there is a grading criteria for articles and an importance criteria for novels. Unfortunately no mention of book quality. An important book might be virtually unreadable, whereas a very good read might be wholly unremarkable in its effects upon society. What about Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler, or Das Kapital by Carl Marx. Ok, perhaps not novels, though arguably works of fiction, but how does a criterion for the importance of novels, arguably meaning their influence on society, connect with an assessment of all books? Sandpiper 13:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree in general with the principles of your criteria Errabee, except I think that the position of works within the canon of an author (according to academia, literary criticism, 'best of' lists, literary awards etc.) should hold more weight than evidence of popular adaptations. In this scheme, Bleak House and David Copperfield would rate higher than Oliver Twist or A Christmas Carol. I also disagree with a limit-per-author system. There are certain prolific and very influential novelists that have more than two or three books that deserve to be rated of top importance--if you have a Dickens or an Austen shouldn't their most important books be given a higher rating than lesser novelists no matter how many there are?
As well, I think we should be careful about rating flash-in-the-pan phenomena as top priority. In my mind, it seems pretty obvious that the great works of literature should have a higher priority in this project than currently "hyper-popular" fiction. This for a few reasons: we only have so many resources available--we should focus on canonical novels that we know will be relevant ten or fifty years from now; the average Wikipedia editor and fans of the novel in question will undoubtedly work on the article without necessary intervention from the project (in other words, a mid or low rating is not equivalent to ignore and don't edit); we don't have enough objectivity to judge the value or importance of such novels--what might seem incredibly important right now might be almost unheard of given the passage of a bit of time.
Oh, and Sandpiper, I agree with you about Left Hand of Darkness. :) Ibis3 22:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
Errabee, instead of replying via your talk page and escalating things into even more of a conflict, I think it would be better to try and come to some consensus among all Project members about how to handle assessment, both for new articles or novel project boxes and for novels that have already been assessed by other members.
First, I'd like to say that I've acted in good faith, so please don't get so annoyed. Second, I'd also like to point out that my ratings were on books that had not yet been assessed before and I never arbitrarily changed any of your ratings without discussion. This, I thought followed what it says on the Assessment department page:
Who can assess articles? Any member of the Novels WikiProject is free to add—or change—the rating of an article.
What if I don't agree with a rating?
You can list it in the section for assessment requests below, and someone will take a look at it. Alternately, you can ask any member of the project to rate the article again.
Perhaps we should develop a clearer procedure than this? For example, it could be as follows:
If there has to be a vote before a novel is given an assessment it will take a very long time (especially since not everyone is familiar with all genres/regions etc.). Also, there hasn't been any discussion of how much time/how many votes to wait for before making or changing an assessment. Or even what criteria are of more weight when changing an assessment. Consider Bleak House. You seem pretty intent on changing it to a High rating from Top (in fact I see that you've gone and done that very thing). Why did you do that? It was your subjective decision that it was less important than Oliver Twist, so should be rated as High. You didn't back up your assessment with any objective evidence. On the other hand, I brought forth the evaluations of respected literary critics Harold Bloom (who says himself " Bleak House, most critics now tend to agree, is his central work" (p. 289, The Western Canon)) and G. K. Chesterton.
Your repeated reversion of my Barometer Rising assessment is also problematic. On the Assessment page it says:
Note that general notability need not be from the perspective of editor demographics; generally notable topics should be rated similarly regardless of the country or region in which they hold said notability. Thus, topics which may seem obscure to a Western audience—but which are of high notability in other places—should still be highly rated.
Now, I interpreted that to mean that a book that is considered (not by me, but by authorities such as The Oxford Companion to Canadian Literature) to be a seminal work in a country's literature should be accorded a High rating. If it were given awards or recognition abroad, it would then move into the Top rating. So for example, I'd be inclined to rate Gabrielle Roy's The Tin Flute as Top, The Cashier as High, Children of My Heart as Mid. These evalutations are not arbitrary and I have references to back up my position.-- Ibis3 16:05, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
@Ibis3: I don't understand why you assume that replying on my talk page would result in escalating things into even more of a conflict. In fact, I think you accomplished just the opposite by replying here and mentioning individual cases which would have been better suited for an individual discussion between the both of us.
I never assumed you didn't act in good faith, and you certainly don't need to remind me of that guideline. But it seems you assume I didn't act in good faith, which is absolutely not true. In fact, I've taken an objective look at the two new top-important novels, and although I'm not convinced, I felt there was enough reason to not reduce their rating to High-importance. However, as I explained before, I felt (and still feel) there is a need to reach consensus about which novels should have which importance rating. If one bypasses the discussion, there really is no need for trying to establish consensus any more, is there? People can then just rate whatever and however they like.
About your suggestion for a new procedure. I indeed had something like that in mind, but I can't agree with your third suggestion, that in the case of no consensus it could be put at the bottom of the Assessment page as a request. Who would be available to do that new assessment? Even more so, it would then be a one-man decision and not consensus.
You said you had problems with me reverting the rating of Barometer Rising? Well, as you yourself quoted:
I interpreted the next section as applicable only to editors who are not members of this project. So I've been bold and changed it. Your revert of my change was done without any explanation and could be seen as problematic in itself. I then changed it back with explanation, so why would that be problematic? I at least tried to start a discussion (again).
Coming to the topic of ratings, I completely agree with you there should not be any cultural bias. And the current cultural bias would be that novels in the English language are given too much weight. These novels and their authors are far more likely to receive major international prizes and international attention than novels originally written in another language. These novels are generally not obscure to a Western audience. Which leads to the conclusion that if an English-writing novelist did not receive any awards outside his own country, his importance is limited. Depending on the awards, his major work (magnum opus) could be given an importance rating of high, whereas other novels, apparently in lesser regard, should then be treated to be of mid-importance. Now, if there is some other reason for the novel to be rated higher, it should be reflected in the article about the novel or about the author. In the case of Barometer Rising, there is no such evidence. The author only received national awards, and it is not his magnum opus. Hence my judgement of no more than mid-importance.
As far as Dickens is concerned, something else plays a role. The definition of Top-importance is that a novel should be a "core" topic in the field of literature OR it should be highly notable for students outside the field of literature. Both Oliver Twist and A Christmas Carol are highly notable for students outside the field of literature, Bleak House is not. Which leaves the question: is it a "core topic" in the field of literature? As I felt the discussion page was obsolete, I just changed the rating to represent the current number of votes (for all books with more than one vote, or where my vote was not opposed), not knowing about the quote from Bloom, which might have changed my mind, but the text you wrote earlier (one of the most acclaimed of Dickens' novels) didn't make me change my opinion. It indicated to me that there are several other equally important or even more important novels by Dickens.
So if you do decide to question my judgement, please do so referring to the arguments known at the time of this judgement instead of presenting new quotes. These new quotes should only be used as new arguments, which can then lead to a new rating. Currently I'm not in the mood, but you can always do it yourself.
I suggest we stop discussing about individual novels here, and continue with a general discussion. Discussion about the individual novels we disagree upon I would rather do on our individual user talk pages, as they are of no concern to others. Errabee 17:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
"Subject is a "core" topic for literature, or is highly notable to people other than students of literature.
War and Peace The Lord of the Rings Pride and Prejudice
High - Subject is more notable or significant within the field of literature and outside it.
The Name of the Rose Lucky Jim Jonathan Livingston Seagull
Mid - Subject is notable or significant within the field of literature (or to a historian), but not necessarily outside it.
Brighton Rock Rosemary's Baby The Body in the Library"
Jonathan Livingston Seagull, of which I have just been made aware, ranks higher here than one of the core works of one of the more important 20th century novelists, Mr. Greene? I've heard more about Rosemary's Baby than this seagull book, though only through the associated motion picture.
In regards to the The Lord of the Rings and the inevitable Harry Potter question, works which are quite spuriously rated among Tolstoy, is it possible that they should belong to another list or category entirely, one that would focus on volume of pages sold rather than the enjoyment or study of serious literature? As it stands now, this category of "Literature" serves two masters. I'd also like to point out that contrary to what many have written about "students of literature", there does yet exist that mythical beast--the common reader--though perhaps dying out.
-- 24.131.209.132 16:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Should any of the following be of top importance?
Note the following relatively random sample of works which are not currently ranked at top importance, all of which I would consider of considerably greater importance than any of the above (Most of which I had not even heard of, with the exception of the Camus, Titus Groan, and My Name is Red):
And that's just a vague assortment off the top of my head. john k 18:16, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
And I've done some shuffling as well today. But to play advocate of the devil: Max Havelaar is iconic in the Netherlands, Belgium and Indonesia, and Erast Fandorin (please do go read the novels, the first 4 have been translated into English) marks the revival of literature in the Post-Soviet era (because Russians were all reading trash novels). Also please note the note in the criteria for the importance scale: Note that general notability need not be from the perspective of editor demographics; generally notable topics should be rated similarly regardless of the country or region in which they hold said notability. Thus, topics which may seem obscure to a Western audience—but which are of high notability in other places—should still be highly rated. And I might add, as a non-native English speaker, I've never even heard of many of the novels you mentioned, not that that should be the standard (but neither should the fact that you haven't heard of those novels). Errabee 23:35, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to start reviewing unassessed articles, but I'm a bit bewildered by the {{ NovelsWikiProject}} template. How do you change the bit that says "The article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet" to reflect that there are comments? Following the link and creating a new page does not do it. Sorry to be such a dunce! -- Merope Talk 22:24, 25 September 2006 (UTC)
Additional thanks from someone who was puzzled but not brave enough to ask! -- Sordel 07:08, 26 September 2006 (UTC)
Buddenbrooks The Secret Agent The Rainbow Women in Love The Glass Bead Game The Radetzky March My Ántonia The Age of Innocence As I Lay Dying Call It Sleep princess de cleves Notes from Underground The Idiot The Devils Death in Venice Buddenbrooks The Castle Moll Flanders Humphry Clinker Rameau's Nephew Manon Lescaut Candide Elective Affinities Wilhelm Meister's Apprenticeship Wilhelm Meister's Years of Wandering The House by the Medlar Tree Fortunata and Jacinta La Regenta The Maias Adolphe Sentimental Education L'Assommoir The Heart of Midlothian Jane Eyre A Hero of Our Time Billy Budd Little Women The Red Badge of Courage The Confession of Zeno The Immoralist Our Lady of the Flowers Nausea Effi Briest Lazarillo de Tormes Radetzky March Romance of the Three Kingdoms Simplicissimus Water Margin The Home and the World Journey to the West Dream of the Red Chamber Gargantua and Pantagruel Gil Blas Snow Country The moon and the bonfires The Setting Sun The Silent Cry The Makioka Sisters The Temple of the Golden Pavilion
Just off my head. Mandel 09:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Surely Milton's Paradise Lost should be classed as being of 'Top Importance' given its standing as one of the great poetical works ever written? The skill of Milton as a 17th Century Poet was only ever matched by Shakespeare a few years before him. I would ask that the poem's position of 'High Importance' be re-assessed with the view of it being re-classified as being of 'Top Importance'. Robsonm 14:12, 1 June 2007 (UTC)
I didn't find out about this importance rating of novels until today, and partly curious and partly skeptical I read this page and through the lists of novels of varying ranks. After doing so, I have the same question I had when I started: What exactly is the purpose of this rating? I have read several times that it helps in "prioritizing" but I fear that this rating will be seen as more of a end in itself rather than a means to an end (ultimately, improving Wikipedia). That is, I fear that more time will be spent debating an novel's importance than improving the article. Indeed, it seems like the very word "importance" should be replaced with the seemingly more appropriate "popular" (which, according to the first explanatory paragraph, seems to be the primary criterion).
Which leads me to another point: the two paragraphs (as they are now) completely contradict each other. The first paragraph cites popularity as the determining criteria. The second cites importance. These are clearly very different criteria. As someone with an interest in Japanese literature, I can give you a slew of novels that would rate low in popularity from the definition given on the Project page: "the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic" but high in importance with respect to their place in the canon of Japanese literature. But if you start including these novels, where does one draw the line? What if I'm an expert in postmodern Danish feminist writing and can argue for the inclusion of 15 novels in this "top" rating? At this point, what real/practical value does this rating have? Could one really argue against a given novel's importance, given this broad definition?
I like the idea of rating articles for quality, as this is something that can be assessed fairly objectively. Why not rate articles just on quality, and let interested editors search out articles they are able to improve? I fear that these ratings will be harmful first because they are ultimately subjective and probably doomed to be biased, in present form poorly defined, and ultimately run the risk of turning from descriptive to prescriptive ratings. It's well and good to rate Novel A as being important and thus in need of attention, but what does it say to someone who comes across Novel B that is rated of little or no importance? What incentive exists to improve this article? I am of the opinion that any novel deemed worthy of a Wikipedia article is of importance of some kind.
I make this comments in good faith ... but that old phrase about the road to Hell being paved with good intentions keeps ringing in my ears. I applaud the aim, but wonder if a different method could not be used. CES 00:52, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe this is a case of anyone putting up walls against outsiders. If you read Kevinalewis's remarks again, you will see that the importance policy is a Wikipedia one, not a novels project one specifically. Yes, it has its flaws, and it is ones that those discussing the assessment of top-importance novels keep running into. Nonetheless, if you have concerns about the assigning of importance values generally then it sounds like an issue that needs to be taken up further up the ladder as the changes would need to be implemented across Wikipedia as a whole. Whatever we institute has to fit in with Wikipedia policy. We can't just make things up for this project and expect everyone else to fall into line. If you have concerns that are project-specific, then this is obviously the place to address them. However, at this point I would ask for ideas of what you would like to see changed, and not simply complaints about the current system. If you don't like the current system, what would you like to see instead? Silverthorn 16:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
After the last discussion on all of this ( Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Novels/Assessment/Top-important), I retreated because it seemed as though we were getting nowhere. Why? Because people are going at this from different directions. The way I see it, we have to start with the rationale for having an assessment process. The rationale is not to debate the merits of particular novels, nor to create a hierarchy of literature, nor to establish some kind of Wikipedia canon of world literature. We have an assessment to determine which articles need to be included and made complete and thorough. So, all the articles that are deemed necessary must be given Top importance, all those deemed highly desirable should be given High importance, etc. There are various criteria for deeming a book to be necessary (related to why users might search for an article) - familiarity, inclusion in a canon, recognition by literary awards, inclusion in school cirricula, adaptation into other media, influence on society, politics, culture, influence on later literary works. Any novel can deserve Top importance by having a large degree of notability in any of these areas or by having a smaller degree of notability in more than one. If we assess each novel against these criteria (preferably using external sources to evaluate, not subjective opinion), it doesn't matter what other books are rated as, it doesn't matter if the majority of editors haven't heard of a book (e.g. when evaluating national or generic novels). Again and again, people want to compare books rather than evaluate or assess them on an absolute scale. It's just as important for Wikipedia to have an article about Harry Potter as about Great Expectations, though there can be no dispute that the latter is canonical and the former not so much. I don't think sorting the novels into groups is necessary--we just need to spell out some guidelines for what makes an article for a novel necessary. So maybe we could use those criteria I mentioned above and give some details about what the difference might be between, for example, Top literary award recognition (e.g. IMPAC Dublin, Nobel, Booker) and High (e.g. Pulitzer, Giller, Newbery) [after debate, we might decide that any major award winner deserves Top]. As I've said elsewhere, I think that if a novel has achieved notability outside of its sphere (international recognition for a non-American/non-British book, familiarity beyond its genre) it should be elevated from High to Top.
Then comes the question of what to do about the assessed articles. If an article is rated Top it should get some priority in monthly collaborations, it should be featured in the newsletter, etc. I notice that though there are a slew of currently Top-rated articles that have been neglected, there are low or mid rated articles asking for editors in the newsletter.-- Ibis3 20:12, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Could someone please review the assessment of this article. It's rated as stub-class but the article is very substantial, nothing like a stub at all. Also, though this is more subjective, it's rated low-importance which doesn't seem so nice. The novel was quite popular in Germany, was translated into many languages and made into a film, the author was one of Germany's best-known childrens' writers, and the book itself has apparently been influential. 67.117.130.181 22:06, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
It is assessed as the greatest novel of China all the time by most Chinese scholars. Why it only rated as Mid-importance here? Yao Ziyuan 10:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I changed the assessment to my understanding of Chinese literature and Wikipedia:WikiProject_Novels/Assessment#Importance_scale. I know many average westerners might be know little about Chinese literature as well as Chinese novels, so you might never heard of some very famous novels. That doesn't matter. It is due to the gap between western and eastern cultures. Comments are always welcome. Yao Ziyuan 12:08, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
The criteria used for rating article importance are not meant to be an absolute or canonical view of how significant the topic is. Rather, they attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it). Thus, subjects with greater popular notability may be rated higher than topics which are arguably more "important" but which are of interest primarily to students of literature.
they attempt to gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic (and thus the immediate need to have a suitably well-written article on it).
Why is this criteria set? How do you "gauge the probability of the average reader of Wikipedia needing to look up the topic"? Note this is the 'Importance scale', not the "bestseller scale". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.6.49.48 ( talk • contribs)
Hi all. I was wondering if people consider encyclopedic content when rating the quality of articles on books. Many books have overly detailed plot summaries, which is not within the scope of Wikipedia articles. Some articles are little more than plot summaries. I didn't see a mention of this anywhere, and I was just hoping that encyclopedic content would be factored in to the quality assessment. Thanks. ~ MDD 46 96 14:24, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Camus' novel The Plague has been selected for this month's Wikipedia:WikiProject Novels/Collaboration. Since it is rated Top-importance by Project Novels, I hope you'll be able to help! -- EncycloPetey 19:37, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
In the last week, I have found major sections in the articles on Midnight's Children and Adam Bede to be direct and literal copies from Gradesaver and similar sources, available online, & actually cited and linked on the face of the article. (identified material has been removed, and the person inserting it warned.) There is a characteristic writing style in study guides such as these, presumably designed to impress teachers when submitted as essays. Only the most careless of teachers would be deceived when the material is used without modification--and it looks like WP is about as careless as any. These were the first two articles I checked, and a number of people have edited the article over many months without noticing. I urge editors in this project to check the articles they are working on. I intend to continue looking from time to time but do not want to take this burden for the entire content of this project. DGG ( talk) 03:52, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
You know that point where you just start clicking on any link shown and have no idea what's happening and start to panic? That's what I get for trying to read the instructions to do it myself. I'm trying to request another peer review for To Kill a Mockingbird. I've never archived and moved stuff, so I don't know what I've done. This makes me feel like my dad, shouting instructions at the monitor...I'm so much more hip than this, really!! Help! -- Moni3 13:46, 11 September 2007 (UTC) Moni3
Does this term mean review-critics or scholarly-critics or both? I've been adding lists of scholarly studies to author and book pages (especially those needing evidence of notability), but I'm not sure how I should label the section: Scholarly articles? Critical studies? Aristophanes68 ( talk) 14:22, 17 March 2008 (UTC)
Assessment is waste of time that would be better spent improving articles. EdQuine ( talk) 14:22, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
I noticed The Slap was rated as low importance and given it just won the Commonwealth Writers Prize I felt it deserved at least mid so increase it. I then checked last years The Book of Negroes (novel) which to my surprise was also low as was Mister Pip although the The Secret River is mid. I know we aren't talking about the Man Booker Prize but do others agree that any book having won the Commonwealth Writers Prize is likely automatically entitled to a minimum of mid or am I completely off base here and do others feel it isn't sufficient in itself (I don't do assessments and am not really a participant in any wikiproject)? Nil Einne ( talk) 16:20, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
I just tried my first assessment ( The Faerie Wars Chronicles) and changing the class on the talk was fine, but it didn't change on the main page (the tag that says "a -class article from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). Did I do something wrong? Oh, and feel free to change the assessment if you think it's wrong! PrincessofLlyr ( talk) 18:44, 16 December 2009 (UTC)
The Monthly changes section is missing C-scale articles. Can this be added in? Derild 49 2 1 00:39, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I have been waiting about two days to get a rating for an article I submitted. No one is repling. Can someone do that please? I would be very grateful. Cheers! UserDarkJak495 talk orange 22:19, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Can someone rank my article? I would really appreciate it. Cheers! UserDarkJak495 talk orange 12:55, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Can you tell me what sections need to be worked on and expanded? And can you help with the article please? Thanks! UserDarkJak495 talk orange 20:12, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
In high importance we have 8 articles, including a Hardy Boys. In core we have only 3. I think that Stephen Crane's The Red Badge of Courage is of greater literary importance than the Hardy Boys; the same with Ernest Hemingway's The Sun Also Rises. I think we should re-think these designations. Thoughts? Truthkeeper88 ( talk) 18:38, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Should editors who do not belong to this WikiProject or one of its task forces sometimes edit a Talk page to allocate an article about a book? Or always place the {Books} project banner where there is none —the most general if i understand correctly?
Should we sometimes edit a Talk page to revise quality assessment? For example, revise class=Stub to class=Start or even to class=C? If not that, what about revise class=Stub to class= [unassessed]?
I do edit Article categories and stub tags, of course. And I do edit the Talk page project banners on technical points such as needs-infobox and needs-infobox-cover. -- P64 ( talk) 19:21, 25 October 2011 (UTC)