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Should Category:Murdered monarchs be a subcategory of Category:Dethroned monarchs? Or can one person not be categorised as both simultaneously (as this is either redundant, or will lead to a logical contradiction)?
I'm asking because Anula of Anuradhapura is both in Category:Dethroned monarchs and Category:1st-century BC murdered monarchs. Sorry if this may sound strange or like linguistic nitpicking. But it seems to me that:
I know that it can be a point of view (POV) whether the monarch was really dethroned or not, and especially whether they were still the (legitimate) monarch or not. The classic historiographical problem is the Execution of Louis XVI: was that "putting citizen Louis Capet to justice" (D; as revolutionaries saw it) or "murdering/lynching the rightful King Louis XVI" (B; as royalists saw it)? I can imagine royalists will have maintained that Louis was the rightful monarch of France until his death, even though I think there is consensus in historiography that at least the Insurrection of 10 August 1792 and Louis' subsequent imprisonment (13 August 1792 to 21 January 1793) in the Temple fortress until his execution represents a dethronement. That is scenario A, which could still lead to C or D, depending on whether you consider the Trial of Louis XVI to have been legitimate or illegitimate. But scenario B is no longer possible, because Louis was evidently not in office anymore while imprisoned in the Temple.
All this leads me to the conclusion that we cannot simultaneously put people in the Category:Dethroned monarchs and the Category:Murdered monarchs trees. Because it leads to a logical contradiction. The only scenario in which I can see that happening is that if Hank becomes the monarch of Foo, is dethroned but allowed to live (A), and becomes the monarch of Bar, and is then murdered while in office (B). That means Hank is the dethroned monarch of Foo, and the murdered monarch of Bar, but not the dethroned monarch of Bar. Hank would only be in Category:Dethroned monarchs because of Foo. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 08:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Should the Australian governor-general be in the infobox of Monarchy of Australia, with the king? We'll need input, on whether or not this should be done. GoodDay ( talk) 00:21, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place here. -- GoodDay ( talk) 00:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone know the exact date Louis X, Duke of Bavaria in 1516 Louis became Duke? ✠ Robertus Pius ✠ ( Talk • Contribs) 16:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
A previous RfC determined that there was consensus to support updating WP:NCROY, a guideline that has been a basis for titling articles on European monarchs since the fall of the Western Roman Empire, to explicitly allow the use of shorter titles for these sovereigns if disambiguation is unnecessary. Given this result, which of the following four options is the best way to (re)title Wikipedia articles on pertinent European sovereigns going forward?
All participants are strongly encouraged to read the nominator’s extended rationale before contributing. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Notifications
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All notifications below this text were added after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
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NOTE A: This is my (APT’s) first time initiating a RfC, so I apologize if I have done anything improperly.
NOTE B: This RfC is attempting to resolve unsettled concerns regarding the application of WP:NCROY in lieu of WP:NCROY per se. Hence, I am opening this discussion here at WP:ROYALTY instead of WP:NCROY. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
I recognize that there are many articles on the English Wikipedia that are arguably under the scope of WP:NCROY. To avoid overwhelming readers of this discussion, I ask that as a community, we focus our attention on the article titles that I have explicitly listed in this section. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
CONTEXT: The information provided below up to the end of this section was originally published by APT on September 18, 2023 as evidence in favor of his argument at the same RfC linked in the opening statement of this RfC. Also, “Adherence to WP:NCROY” refers to whether or not a cited article title followed Guideline 2 of WP:SOVEREIGN at the time APT published his information originally (Link to current text of WP:SOVEREIGN)
NOTES: First, to avoid overwhelming readers not familiar with European royalty, rulers of former monarchies are excluded. Also, as alluded to previously, sovereigns of the Vatican City are excluded because they are popes instead covered by WP:NCCL. Furthermore, the Presidents of France and Bishops of Urgell, the Co-Princes of Andorra, are excluded because they are instead subjected to WP:NCP and WP:NCCL, respectively.
Monarchs of Belgium
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since Belgium’s independence from the Netherlands in 1830 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Leopold I of Belgium | 1831-1865 | Yes |
Leopold II of Belgium | 1865-1909 | Yes |
Albert I of Belgium | 1909-1934 | Yes |
Leopold III of Belgium | 1934-1951 | Yes |
Baudouin of Belgium | 1951-1993 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Albert II of Belgium | 1993-2013 | Yes |
Philippe of Belgium | 2013-present | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Monarchs of Denmark
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the establishment of the Danish House of Glücksburg in 1863 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Christian IX of Denmark | 1863-1906 | Yes |
Frederick VIII of Denmark | 1906-1912 | Yes |
Christian X of Denmark | 1912-1947 | Yes |
Frederick IX of Denmark | 1947-1972 | Yes |
Margrethe II | 1972-present | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Monarchs of the Netherlands
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the establishment of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1815 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
William I of the Netherlands | 1815-1840 | Yes |
William II of the Netherlands | 1840-1849 | Yes |
William III of the Netherlands | 1849-1890 | Yes |
Wilhelmina of the Netherlands | 1890-1948 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Juliana of the Netherlands | 1948-1980 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Beatrix of the Netherlands | 1980-2013 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands | 2013-present | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Monarchs of Norway
This section was edited at 21:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC) and at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the dissolution of the personal union of Norway with Sweden in 1905 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Haakon VII | 1905-1957 | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Olav V | 1957-1991 | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Harald V | 1991-present | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Monarchs of Spain
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned in Spain since the establishment of the House of Bourbon-Anjou in 1700 are included, excluding monarchs from other royal houses.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Philip V of Spain | 1700-1724 and 1724-1746 | Yes |
Louis I of Spain | 1724-1724 | Yes |
Ferdinand VI of Spain | 1746-1759 | Yes |
Charles III of Spain | 1759-1788 | Yes |
Charles IV of Spain | 1788-1808 | Yes |
Ferdinand VII of Spain | 1808-1808 and 1813-1833 | Yes |
Isabella II of Spain | 1833-1868 | Yes |
Alfonso XII | 1874-1885 | No |
Alfonso XIII | 1886-1931 | No |
Juan Carlos I | 1975-2014 | No |
Felipe VI | 2014-present | No |
Monarchs of Sweden
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned in Sweden since the establishment of the House of Bernadotte in 1818 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Charles XIV John | 1818-1844 | No (and fails to acknowledge Norwegian regnal number) |
Oscar I of Sweden | 1844-1859 | Yes |
Charles XV | 1859-1872 | No (and fails to acknowledge Norwegian regnal number) |
Oscar II | 1872-1907 | No |
Gustaf V | 1907-1950 | No |
Gustaf VI Adolf | 1950-1973 | No |
Carl XVI Gustaf | 1973-present | No |
Monarchs of Great Britain or the United Kingdom
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the unification of the Kingdoms of England and Scotland in 1707 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Anne, Queen of Great Britain | 1707-1714 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
George I of Great Britain | 1714-1727 | Yes |
George II of Great Britain | 1727-1760 | Yes |
George III | 1760-1820 | No |
George IV | 1820-1830 | No |
William IV | 1830-1837 | No |
Queen Victoria | 1837-1901 | No |
Edward VII | 1901-1910 | No |
George V | 1910-1936 | No |
Edward VIII | 1936-1936 | No |
George VI | 1936-1952 | No |
Elizabeth II | 1952-2022 | No |
Charles III | 2022-present | No |
Monarchs of Luxembourg
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the dissolution of the personal union of Luxembourg with the Netherlands in 1890 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 1890-1905 | Yes (only monarch of name) |
William IV, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 1905-1912 | Yes |
Marie-Adélaïde, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg | 1912-1919 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg | 1919-1964 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 1964-2000 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 2000-present | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Sovereign Princes of Liechtenstein
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Karl I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1627-1684 | Yes |
Karl Eusebius, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1662-1701 | Yes (only monarch of name) |
Hans-Adam I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1684-1712 | Yes |
Joseph Wenzel I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1712-1718 and 1748-1772 | Yes |
Anton Florian, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1718-1721 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Joseph Johann Adam, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1721-1732 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Johann Nepomuk Karl, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1732-1748 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Franz Joseph I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1772-1781 | Yes |
Aloys I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1781-1805 | Yes |
Johann I Joseph, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1805-1836 | Yes |
Aloys II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1836-1858 | Yes |
Johann II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1858-1929 | Yes |
Franz I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1929-1938 | Yes |
Franz Joseph II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1938-1989 | Yes |
Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1989-present | Yes |
Rulers of Monaco
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
Sovereigns since Monaco became a principality in 1633 are listed, excluding periods of occupation.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Honoré II, Prince of Monaco | 1633-1662 | Yes |
Louis I, Prince of Monaco | 1662-1701 | Yes |
Antonio I, Prince of Monaco | 1701-1731 | Yes |
Louise Hippolyte, Princess of Monaco | 1731-1731 | Yes (only monarch of name in Monaco) |
Jacques I, Prince of Monaco | 1731-1733 | Yes |
Honoré III, Prince of Monaco | 1733-1793 | Yes |
Honoré IV, Prince of Monaco | 1814-1819 | Yes |
Honoré V, Prince of Monaco | 1819-1841 | Yes |
Florestan, Prince of Monaco | 1841-1856 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Charles III, Prince of Monaco | 1856-1889 | Yes |
Albert I, Prince of Monaco | 1889-1922 | Yes |
Louis II, Prince of Monaco | 1922-1949 | Yes |
Rainier III, Prince of Monaco | 1949-2005 | Yes |
Albert II, Prince of Monaco | 2005-present | Yes |
Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
APT’s personal opinion on the RfC matter
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I support Option 1, Option 3, or Option 4 as the outcome of this RfC. I do not support Option 2 because neither WP:NCROY nor WP:COMMONNAME establishes an explicit numerical threshold or ratio that can be used to choose one possible article title over another. In addition, I am aware that my views regarding the article titles for European sovereign have received strong opposition from the community, both at the RfC I linked in my opening statement and at a requested move on Elizabeth II’s article that I initiated on July 30, 2023. Therefore, the rest of my statement will instead seek to inform the community of the context regarding each proposed outcome in this RfC instead of attempting to persuade participants to agree with my opinion. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Option 1 context: WP:RMs for articles on British monarchs have been frequentI am aware that WP:MORATORIUMs are counter to some general Wikipedia practices. However, in the past year alone (i.e. since November 1, 2022), at least six different RMs have been initiated to change titles for British sovereigns in particular:
It should be noted that the simultaneous discussion of the Charles III, Elizabeth II, and George I RMs in July 2023 caused a user to raise a complaint at WP:ANI about the appropriateness of such discussions occurring. This complaint was redirected to the talk page of WP:RM, where it was concluded that the simultaneous discussions could proceed. Evidently, the quantity of RM discussions in the realm of British monarch’s title has caused frustration and exhaustion among Wikipedia users. Consequently, I believe that as a community, we need to take a break from arguing over what the best title may be for not just British sovereigns, but all European sovereigns. A moratorium that lasts up to a year after the closing of this RfC therefore seems prudent. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Option 2 context: There is a disconnect between the letter of WP:NCROY and current practiceAs of the start of this RfC, Guideline III of the Sovereigns section of WP:NCROY stated the following (Bolded emphasis mine):
Moreover, Guideline V of the Sovereigns sections of WP:NCROY stated (Bolded emphasis mine):
However, these blanket guidelines do not account for where multiple sovereigns’ titles are currently located. This is clearly illustrated in the list below:
From the above evidence, it can be seen that there is greater nuance to how European monarchs are titled on Wikipedia beyond whether or not they are the only sovereign with their regnal name. Work needs to be done to either amend WP:NCROY accordingly or move a number of article titles to adhere to the current guidelines of WP:NCROY. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Option 3 context: WP:RSs show (Name) of (Country) format is more common in secondary sourcesWP:RS states the following:
Based on the following evidence in this section, an additional justification for using the "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}" format for article titles on European sovereigns emerges:
Option 4 context: The WP:CONSENSUS of the linked RfC in the opening statement has been debatableIn the closing statement of the RfC written on November 2, 2023, the closer noted that However, by analyzing a series of RMs initiated before November 2023 for European sovereigns whose targets were more concise titles, a more nuanced picture of this NOTE: APT originally included some of these RMs in his evidence for the RfC linked in the opening statement of this discussion.
As can be seen from the above information, the supposed consensus that was acknowledged in the November 2023 RfC was not truly agreed upon. Additionally, a box in the lede of WP:SILENCE states the following:
I can produce this Furthermore, I am not the only user who has expressed disagreement with how article titles on European sovereigns have been titled in recent years, as illustrated by this discussion on George III’s talk page. Finally, as I illustrate in Appendix A of my extended rationale below, there is precedent for longer titles that are not necessarily WP:COMMONNAMEs to be used to identify members of European royalty on Wikipedia. The outcome of the November 2023 RfC is inconsistent with the pattern that I will show in that section. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) APT’s notes for the closer
Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) APPENDIX A: Evidence of WP:COMMONNAME already being disregarded for multiple European royals (and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT being used)NOTE: APT originally published this information on September 18, 2023 as evidence in support of his argument in the RfC linked in the opening statement. Below, I have listed select princes and princesses from five current European monarchies. Moreover, using Google search results, I show that each of their Wikipedia article titles are less common than some alternatives but are still used regardless'. I see no reason why monarchs’ titles should not follow the same trend in the spirit of WP:CONSISTENT:
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Regardless of where we stand on this issue, I hope that we can all agree that this RfC should bring closure to a debate that has been in the making for the years. I will respect the final decision and will offer my services to amend WP:NCROY as appropriate depending on what the community agrees to.
Although I hope that a move to my requested targets will ensue from this discussion, I recognize that such a decision will come from the consensus that emerges.
In addition, I am aware that my views regarding the article titles for European sovereign have received strong opposition from the community, both at the RfC I linked in my opening statement ... and at a requested move on Elizabeth II’s article that I initiated on July 30, 2023. Therefore, the rest of my statement will instead seek to inform the community of the context regarding each proposed outcome in this RfC instead of attempting to persuade participants to agree with my opinion.
The information provided below up to the end of this section ... was originally published by APT on September 18, 2023] as evidence in favor of his argument at the same RfC linked in the opening statement of this RfC. Also, “Adherence to WP:NCROY” refers to whether or not a cited article title followed ... Guideline 2 of WP:SOVEREIGN at the time APT published his information originally]
"{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"format, which WP:NCROY currently rules is unnecessary for a monarch with an unambiguous regnal name like Juliana.
"{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"titling format. Likewise, Alfonso XII, Alfonso XIII, Juan Carlos I, and Felipe VI should all be moved back to Alfonso XII of Spain, Alfonso XIII of Spain, Juan Carlos I of Spain, and Felipe VI of Spain because the majority (i.e. 7 out of 11) of Spanish House of Bourbon-Anjou monarchs are titled with the
"{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"template.
Everyone should aspire to write concisely, and those who fail to do so forfeit the right to others' attention.This applies to you. Your extended rationale was originally 44kB and it's now even larger. You refer back to another 10kB behemoth here. You have failed to write concisely, and it is unreasonable of you to expect every word to be cogitated on carefully by every contributor to the page. Kahastok talk 17:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
There was a time, when all the bios of monarchs were in the style of Name # of country. Due to multiple RMs? that consistency has been evaporated, which (IMHO) is regrettable. GoodDay ( talk) 22:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Here's examples of confusion we've left for less familiar readers, concerning page names. We've got a monarch's page called Queen Victoria & a consort's page called Queen Camilla. There's German/Prussia monarchs, William I of Germany & Wilhelm II. But let's not forget (and plenty of examples of these) many current monarchs with no mention of their country, while their consorts mention the country. GoodDay ( talk) 14:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
@ DrKay: I've been considering accepting an moratoriom on RMs in this area, after this current RFC ends. In these last few weeks, RMs on monarch bios have been popping up frequently, with some closures (IMHO) highly questionable. GoodDay ( talk) 19:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Comment to those who support Option 2 - I understand and respect the opinions that you are expressing in this RfC. However, my core issue with WP:COMMONNAME (and by extension, the guidelines of WP:NCROY that are based off of it) is that there is no explicit numerical threshold or ratio that can be used to select one "common" article title over another.
Evidently, to establish an arbitrary WP:COMMONNAME proportion across all subject areas is impractical. However, in my opinion, this lack of a specific cutoff for WP:NCROY in particular is why the RMs for European monarchs have been so numerous, so heated, and so inconclusive. A community of multiple editors is reasonably going to have differing interpretations over what title is "more common" in secondary and other reliable sources. If we do not agree upon a specific numerical ratio to refer to, I worry that this discussion is simply going to appear again at a later date with a more unproductive tone. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 21:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
In the tables, I note "Adherence to WP:NCROY". While it is noted, once, in the rather lengthy text, that this refers to the articles' present adherence to the former version of WP:NCROY, such may be missed by participants who are being given an awful lot of material to sort through, and who may, quite understandably, believe that what is being alleged is that those article titles presently do not comply with WP:NCROY, and form opinions based on that misapprehension. Can it not be made clear in each table that what is being referred to is whether the present article title would comply with the old version of the policy?-- Wehwalt ( talk) 02:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
The deciding factor in the end, is editors. If a large enough number of editors want a page titled a certain way, that's most likely how that page will be titled. Gradually, "of country" is being 'removed' from bios of monarchs. I wonder, will heirs-apparent/presumptive, consorts & other royal family members be next? That does appear to be the direction that the winds are blowing in. GoodDay ( talk) 19:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
The below statement was modified at 23:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC). This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
After observing how the tone of this discussion has gone, I have made the decision to
WP:BOLDly withdraw my RfC. I had hoped that this conversation would be an opportunity to clarify matters regarding how European sovereigns should be titled. Unfortunately, many participants did not see this RfC the way I did, and that simply caused more frustrations to arise. I sincerely apologize for the confusion that was caused because of this RfC.
I accept that Option 4 in particular will likely be a thing of the past, and I will not challenge this
WP:CONSENSUS from now on. That being said, I still personally believe that
WP:CONSISTENT is a useful goal to keep in mind for the
WP:TITLE of articles. In addition, I still believe that a
WP:MORATORIUM should be imposed for renaming British monarchs' titles in particular in the next 365 days.
Finally, thank you to all who participated, regardless of whether you supported my proposals or not. Even though the discussion did not go as I hoped, this experience was a great opportunity for me to learn the mechanics of a RfC.
Hurricane
Andrew (
444) 19:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I assume all is well? The RFC 'here' is closed & the RM concerning Edward I & company, is still open. Anyways, somebody responded to my recommendation that the said-RM be closed after 3 weeks running. I presume the closure, will be happening soon. GoodDay ( talk) 00:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
A request. May we please have RM notifications brought here (at this WikiProject), so editors won't miss such RMs? With so many of them ocurring, some opened before others are closed, it can be difficult to keep up & easy to miss. In the meantime, we've got WP:RM as our current tracker. GoodDay ( talk) 03:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
As many of you will be aware, following the NCROY change there have been many requested moves. That's a lot of intense discussions which largely cover the same ground. As a peripherally-involved editor I think it would do everyone the world of good to have a break, perhaps until the new year. What do you think? A.D.Hope ( talk) 11:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
FYI, there's a discussion under way at WT:MOSBIO#JOBTITLES simplification proposal that potentially impacts this wikiproject and in particular the WP:NCROY naming conventions. Rosbif73 ( talk) 12:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Monarchies in the Americas has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Just for my own personal research, would anyone be able to tell me how many Wikipedia articles are in the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility? Thnak you. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 00:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello, WikiProject,
I'd appreciate if some knowledgable editor could look over this article and evaluate whether this person's royal claim (from 400 years ago) is real or this is effectively a promotional hoax article that should be tagged for some form of deletion. Thanks for any help you can offer. Liz Read! Talk! 03:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Wedding of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia and Rebecca Virginia Bettarini#Requested move 16 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 08:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Heads of former ruling families#Requested move 13 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 09:21, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello, I've started an rfc on the inclusion of Frederik X's hosue, if so which, and how. Not experienced in rfc's either, so comments and advice are much appreciated. EmilySarah99 ( talk) 10:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Francis Phoebus of Navarre#Requested move 15 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 02:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Nicholas II of Russia#Requested move 24 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I know we had this massive discussion, but that, I think, ended with the initiator pulling out and resulted in nothing. Now we have articles being moved left, right and centre, and quite frankly, I know a lot of editors, including myself I will admit, are tired of seeing articles break convention and removing consistency on Wikipedia. Why do Margrethe II and Frederik X not have the "of Denmark", but Frederick VIII of Denmark and Christian IX of Denmark do? Why does every single Dutch monarch have "of the Netherlands", even though many of them do not have the same name as any other monarch? Why should Nicholas II of Russia be moved to "Nicholas II" because he is the primary topic, even though that would make that article completely inconsistent with all other Russian monarchs articles? It is clear that monarchs without the "of {country}" are monarchs that have ruled in the past 200 or so years, so isn't this bias from Wikipedia, favouring the present? On Wikipedia, it used to be customary for all monarchs' articles to have "of {country}" (unless of course there is an alternate common name like Charlemagne or Alexander the Great). British monarchs were always an exception and to me that seems fair enough since this is the English Wikipedia and they are going to be of most interest to English-reading viewers. I am bringing this to light because I think it is time that we have a proper discussion. I am not calling for an RFC (not yet, at least) nor for an argument, just for a simple discussion so we can commence talks. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 23:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia and its readers above personal concerns. And as frustrating as the RfC outcome that started this recent tidal wave on retitling European sovereigns' articles may be, it was a reflection of WP:CONSENSUS, which is the core of how decisions should be made on Wikipedia.
proper discussionthat is recommended in the original post, I have already started two of these. They did not change the consensus of the community.
User:GrandDukeMarcelo opened discussions on a few pages eg link, regarding the use of the royalty infobox over the pretender infobox for members of families of abolished monarchies. This kind of discussion has come up before in the history of a few different pages. I think a policy to only use the Pretender Infobox for those making an active claim and/or head of house with a claim would make sense (whether or not a monarchy exists as the word "pretender" at least tells you they are not reigning).
I feel it's incorrect to use the Royalty Infobox for descendants multiple generations down from an abolished monarchy. It would be more correct to not use the royal infobox for these other people as it implies a currently reigning royal family exists and by definition they are not royal. Perhaps a new infobox template could exist or ideally Person Infobox should be used instead. Opinions? D1551D3N7 ( talk) 20:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
I feel it's incorrect to use the Royalty Infobox for descendants multiple generations down from an abolished monarchy. It would be more correct to not use the royal infobox for these other people as it implies a currently reigning royal family exists and by definition they are not royal.Agree 100%. Unfortunately many of the biographies of such people were originally written in a fantasist style, with lots of fake titles, unsourced, unencyclopedic family trees, and poor quality in-universe sourcing. This doesn't so much require a policy as it requires competent editing by people with a lot of time and energy .... -- JBL ( talk) 21:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
IMHO, there should be no infoboxes for pretenders. GoodDay ( talk) 20:00, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Yang di-Pertuan Agong#Requested move 4 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 21:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
An editor seems to believe that Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia was Emperor of Russia from 1-26 December 1825. Historians (and Konstantin's 1823 renounciation) says otherwise. See Konstantin's bio page & List of Russian monarchs, etc. GoodDay ( talk) 07:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
I am just notifying editors of this discussion here, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 08:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Zog I of Albania#Requested move 14 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 01:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor#Requested move 27 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 14:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
I have noticed that all the children of the Prince and Princess of all Royal families in Europe have their own articles. While the articles on the children of Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland and Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland have all in AfDs in the part been redirected to their parents articles. Why? And for consistency I propose that we re-create their articles as well. BabbaQ ( talk) 07:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pharnavaz I of Iberia#Requested move 6 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 ( talk) 00:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Isabella I of Castile#Requested move 29 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 13:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I noticed that Princess Mathilde of Schönburg-Waldenburg, Princess Augusta of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, and Theodora of Hesse-Darmstadt which each had AFDs that agreed on turning them into redirects as seen here, here, and here, had them turned back into articles that are more or less article to their previous versions. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 00:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mark Phillips#Requested move 27 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 07:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales § Simplicity and concision. Aaron Liu ( talk) 12:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Several of the requested moves listed on the main page have been open for several months. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sarukhan, Bey of Magnesia#Requested move 9 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 14:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
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Should Category:Murdered monarchs be a subcategory of Category:Dethroned monarchs? Or can one person not be categorised as both simultaneously (as this is either redundant, or will lead to a logical contradiction)?
I'm asking because Anula of Anuradhapura is both in Category:Dethroned monarchs and Category:1st-century BC murdered monarchs. Sorry if this may sound strange or like linguistic nitpicking. But it seems to me that:
I know that it can be a point of view (POV) whether the monarch was really dethroned or not, and especially whether they were still the (legitimate) monarch or not. The classic historiographical problem is the Execution of Louis XVI: was that "putting citizen Louis Capet to justice" (D; as revolutionaries saw it) or "murdering/lynching the rightful King Louis XVI" (B; as royalists saw it)? I can imagine royalists will have maintained that Louis was the rightful monarch of France until his death, even though I think there is consensus in historiography that at least the Insurrection of 10 August 1792 and Louis' subsequent imprisonment (13 August 1792 to 21 January 1793) in the Temple fortress until his execution represents a dethronement. That is scenario A, which could still lead to C or D, depending on whether you consider the Trial of Louis XVI to have been legitimate or illegitimate. But scenario B is no longer possible, because Louis was evidently not in office anymore while imprisoned in the Temple.
All this leads me to the conclusion that we cannot simultaneously put people in the Category:Dethroned monarchs and the Category:Murdered monarchs trees. Because it leads to a logical contradiction. The only scenario in which I can see that happening is that if Hank becomes the monarch of Foo, is dethroned but allowed to live (A), and becomes the monarch of Bar, and is then murdered while in office (B). That means Hank is the dethroned monarch of Foo, and the murdered monarch of Bar, but not the dethroned monarch of Bar. Hank would only be in Category:Dethroned monarchs because of Foo. Nederlandse Leeuw ( talk) 08:43, 6 July 2023 (UTC)
Should the Australian governor-general be in the infobox of Monarchy of Australia, with the king? We'll need input, on whether or not this should be done. GoodDay ( talk) 00:21, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
The discussion is taking place here. -- GoodDay ( talk) 00:28, 3 November 2023 (UTC)
Does anyone know the exact date Louis X, Duke of Bavaria in 1516 Louis became Duke? ✠ Robertus Pius ✠ ( Talk • Contribs) 16:20, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
A previous RfC determined that there was consensus to support updating WP:NCROY, a guideline that has been a basis for titling articles on European monarchs since the fall of the Western Roman Empire, to explicitly allow the use of shorter titles for these sovereigns if disambiguation is unnecessary. Given this result, which of the following four options is the best way to (re)title Wikipedia articles on pertinent European sovereigns going forward?
All participants are strongly encouraged to read the nominator’s extended rationale before contributing. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Notifications
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All notifications below this text were added after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
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NOTE A: This is my (APT’s) first time initiating a RfC, so I apologize if I have done anything improperly.
NOTE B: This RfC is attempting to resolve unsettled concerns regarding the application of WP:NCROY in lieu of WP:NCROY per se. Hence, I am opening this discussion here at WP:ROYALTY instead of WP:NCROY. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
I recognize that there are many articles on the English Wikipedia that are arguably under the scope of WP:NCROY. To avoid overwhelming readers of this discussion, I ask that as a community, we focus our attention on the article titles that I have explicitly listed in this section. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
CONTEXT: The information provided below up to the end of this section was originally published by APT on September 18, 2023 as evidence in favor of his argument at the same RfC linked in the opening statement of this RfC. Also, “Adherence to WP:NCROY” refers to whether or not a cited article title followed Guideline 2 of WP:SOVEREIGN at the time APT published his information originally (Link to current text of WP:SOVEREIGN)
NOTES: First, to avoid overwhelming readers not familiar with European royalty, rulers of former monarchies are excluded. Also, as alluded to previously, sovereigns of the Vatican City are excluded because they are popes instead covered by WP:NCCL. Furthermore, the Presidents of France and Bishops of Urgell, the Co-Princes of Andorra, are excluded because they are instead subjected to WP:NCP and WP:NCCL, respectively.
Monarchs of Belgium
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since Belgium’s independence from the Netherlands in 1830 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Leopold I of Belgium | 1831-1865 | Yes |
Leopold II of Belgium | 1865-1909 | Yes |
Albert I of Belgium | 1909-1934 | Yes |
Leopold III of Belgium | 1934-1951 | Yes |
Baudouin of Belgium | 1951-1993 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Albert II of Belgium | 1993-2013 | Yes |
Philippe of Belgium | 2013-present | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Monarchs of Denmark
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the establishment of the Danish House of Glücksburg in 1863 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Christian IX of Denmark | 1863-1906 | Yes |
Frederick VIII of Denmark | 1906-1912 | Yes |
Christian X of Denmark | 1912-1947 | Yes |
Frederick IX of Denmark | 1947-1972 | Yes |
Margrethe II | 1972-present | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Monarchs of the Netherlands
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the establishment of the Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1815 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
William I of the Netherlands | 1815-1840 | Yes |
William II of the Netherlands | 1840-1849 | Yes |
William III of the Netherlands | 1849-1890 | Yes |
Wilhelmina of the Netherlands | 1890-1948 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Juliana of the Netherlands | 1948-1980 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Beatrix of the Netherlands | 1980-2013 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands | 2013-present | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Monarchs of Norway
This section was edited at 21:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC) and at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the dissolution of the personal union of Norway with Sweden in 1905 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Haakon VII | 1905-1957 | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Olav V | 1957-1991 | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Harald V | 1991-present | No (moved since closure of RfC linked in opening statement) |
Monarchs of Spain
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned in Spain since the establishment of the House of Bourbon-Anjou in 1700 are included, excluding monarchs from other royal houses.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Philip V of Spain | 1700-1724 and 1724-1746 | Yes |
Louis I of Spain | 1724-1724 | Yes |
Ferdinand VI of Spain | 1746-1759 | Yes |
Charles III of Spain | 1759-1788 | Yes |
Charles IV of Spain | 1788-1808 | Yes |
Ferdinand VII of Spain | 1808-1808 and 1813-1833 | Yes |
Isabella II of Spain | 1833-1868 | Yes |
Alfonso XII | 1874-1885 | No |
Alfonso XIII | 1886-1931 | No |
Juan Carlos I | 1975-2014 | No |
Felipe VI | 2014-present | No |
Monarchs of Sweden
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned in Sweden since the establishment of the House of Bernadotte in 1818 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Charles XIV John | 1818-1844 | No (and fails to acknowledge Norwegian regnal number) |
Oscar I of Sweden | 1844-1859 | Yes |
Charles XV | 1859-1872 | No (and fails to acknowledge Norwegian regnal number) |
Oscar II | 1872-1907 | No |
Gustaf V | 1907-1950 | No |
Gustaf VI Adolf | 1950-1973 | No |
Carl XVI Gustaf | 1973-present | No |
Monarchs of Great Britain or the United Kingdom
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the unification of the Kingdoms of England and Scotland in 1707 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Anne, Queen of Great Britain | 1707-1714 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
George I of Great Britain | 1714-1727 | Yes |
George II of Great Britain | 1727-1760 | Yes |
George III | 1760-1820 | No |
George IV | 1820-1830 | No |
William IV | 1830-1837 | No |
Queen Victoria | 1837-1901 | No |
Edward VII | 1901-1910 | No |
George V | 1910-1936 | No |
Edward VIII | 1936-1936 | No |
George VI | 1936-1952 | No |
Elizabeth II | 1952-2022 | No |
Charles III | 2022-present | No |
Monarchs of Luxembourg
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
All sovereigns that have reigned since the dissolution of the personal union of Luxembourg with the Netherlands in 1890 are included.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Adolphe, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 1890-1905 | Yes (only monarch of name) |
William IV, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 1905-1912 | Yes |
Marie-Adélaïde, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg | 1912-1919 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Charlotte, Grand Duchess of Luxembourg | 1919-1964 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 1964-2000 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Henri, Grand Duke of Luxembourg | 2000-present | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Sovereign Princes of Liechtenstein
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Karl I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1627-1684 | Yes |
Karl Eusebius, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1662-1701 | Yes (only monarch of name) |
Hans-Adam I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1684-1712 | Yes |
Joseph Wenzel I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1712-1718 and 1748-1772 | Yes |
Anton Florian, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1718-1721 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Joseph Johann Adam, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1721-1732 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Johann Nepomuk Karl, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1732-1748 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Franz Joseph I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1772-1781 | Yes |
Aloys I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1781-1805 | Yes |
Johann I Joseph, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1805-1836 | Yes |
Aloys II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1836-1858 | Yes |
Johann II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1858-1929 | Yes |
Franz I, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1929-1938 | Yes |
Franz Joseph II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1938-1989 | Yes |
Hans-Adam II, Prince of Liechtenstein | 1989-present | Yes |
Rulers of Monaco
This section was edited at 04:17, 25 November 2023 (UTC) after comments from other users had been made starting at 22:13 UTC on November 23, 2023. This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
Sovereigns since Monaco became a principality in 1633 are listed, excluding periods of occupation.
Title | Reign | Adherence to September 18, 2023 version of WP:NCROY |
---|---|---|
Honoré II, Prince of Monaco | 1633-1662 | Yes |
Louis I, Prince of Monaco | 1662-1701 | Yes |
Antonio I, Prince of Monaco | 1701-1731 | Yes |
Louise Hippolyte, Princess of Monaco | 1731-1731 | Yes (only monarch of name in Monaco) |
Jacques I, Prince of Monaco | 1731-1733 | Yes |
Honoré III, Prince of Monaco | 1733-1793 | Yes |
Honoré IV, Prince of Monaco | 1814-1819 | Yes |
Honoré V, Prince of Monaco | 1819-1841 | Yes |
Florestan, Prince of Monaco | 1841-1856 | Yes (only monarch with name) |
Charles III, Prince of Monaco | 1856-1889 | Yes |
Albert I, Prince of Monaco | 1889-1922 | Yes |
Louis II, Prince of Monaco | 1922-1949 | Yes |
Rainier III, Prince of Monaco | 1949-2005 | Yes |
Albert II, Prince of Monaco | 2005-present | Yes |
Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
APT’s personal opinion on the RfC matter
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I support Option 1, Option 3, or Option 4 as the outcome of this RfC. I do not support Option 2 because neither WP:NCROY nor WP:COMMONNAME establishes an explicit numerical threshold or ratio that can be used to choose one possible article title over another. In addition, I am aware that my views regarding the article titles for European sovereign have received strong opposition from the community, both at the RfC I linked in my opening statement and at a requested move on Elizabeth II’s article that I initiated on July 30, 2023. Therefore, the rest of my statement will instead seek to inform the community of the context regarding each proposed outcome in this RfC instead of attempting to persuade participants to agree with my opinion. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Option 1 context: WP:RMs for articles on British monarchs have been frequentI am aware that WP:MORATORIUMs are counter to some general Wikipedia practices. However, in the past year alone (i.e. since November 1, 2022), at least six different RMs have been initiated to change titles for British sovereigns in particular:
It should be noted that the simultaneous discussion of the Charles III, Elizabeth II, and George I RMs in July 2023 caused a user to raise a complaint at WP:ANI about the appropriateness of such discussions occurring. This complaint was redirected to the talk page of WP:RM, where it was concluded that the simultaneous discussions could proceed. Evidently, the quantity of RM discussions in the realm of British monarch’s title has caused frustration and exhaustion among Wikipedia users. Consequently, I believe that as a community, we need to take a break from arguing over what the best title may be for not just British sovereigns, but all European sovereigns. A moratorium that lasts up to a year after the closing of this RfC therefore seems prudent. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Option 2 context: There is a disconnect between the letter of WP:NCROY and current practiceAs of the start of this RfC, Guideline III of the Sovereigns section of WP:NCROY stated the following (Bolded emphasis mine):
Moreover, Guideline V of the Sovereigns sections of WP:NCROY stated (Bolded emphasis mine):
However, these blanket guidelines do not account for where multiple sovereigns’ titles are currently located. This is clearly illustrated in the list below:
From the above evidence, it can be seen that there is greater nuance to how European monarchs are titled on Wikipedia beyond whether or not they are the only sovereign with their regnal name. Work needs to be done to either amend WP:NCROY accordingly or move a number of article titles to adhere to the current guidelines of WP:NCROY. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) Option 3 context: WP:RSs show (Name) of (Country) format is more common in secondary sourcesWP:RS states the following:
Based on the following evidence in this section, an additional justification for using the "{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}" format for article titles on European sovereigns emerges:
Option 4 context: The WP:CONSENSUS of the linked RfC in the opening statement has been debatableIn the closing statement of the RfC written on November 2, 2023, the closer noted that However, by analyzing a series of RMs initiated before November 2023 for European sovereigns whose targets were more concise titles, a more nuanced picture of this NOTE: APT originally included some of these RMs in his evidence for the RfC linked in the opening statement of this discussion.
As can be seen from the above information, the supposed consensus that was acknowledged in the November 2023 RfC was not truly agreed upon. Additionally, a box in the lede of WP:SILENCE states the following:
I can produce this Furthermore, I am not the only user who has expressed disagreement with how article titles on European sovereigns have been titled in recent years, as illustrated by this discussion on George III’s talk page. Finally, as I illustrate in Appendix A of my extended rationale below, there is precedent for longer titles that are not necessarily WP:COMMONNAMEs to be used to identify members of European royalty on Wikipedia. The outcome of the November 2023 RfC is inconsistent with the pattern that I will show in that section. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) APT’s notes for the closer
Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 22:01, 23 November 2023 (UTC) APPENDIX A: Evidence of WP:COMMONNAME already being disregarded for multiple European royals (and WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT being used)NOTE: APT originally published this information on September 18, 2023 as evidence in support of his argument in the RfC linked in the opening statement. Below, I have listed select princes and princesses from five current European monarchies. Moreover, using Google search results, I show that each of their Wikipedia article titles are less common than some alternatives but are still used regardless'. I see no reason why monarchs’ titles should not follow the same trend in the spirit of WP:CONSISTENT:
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Regardless of where we stand on this issue, I hope that we can all agree that this RfC should bring closure to a debate that has been in the making for the years. I will respect the final decision and will offer my services to amend WP:NCROY as appropriate depending on what the community agrees to.
Although I hope that a move to my requested targets will ensue from this discussion, I recognize that such a decision will come from the consensus that emerges.
In addition, I am aware that my views regarding the article titles for European sovereign have received strong opposition from the community, both at the RfC I linked in my opening statement ... and at a requested move on Elizabeth II’s article that I initiated on July 30, 2023. Therefore, the rest of my statement will instead seek to inform the community of the context regarding each proposed outcome in this RfC instead of attempting to persuade participants to agree with my opinion.
The information provided below up to the end of this section ... was originally published by APT on September 18, 2023] as evidence in favor of his argument at the same RfC linked in the opening statement of this RfC. Also, “Adherence to WP:NCROY” refers to whether or not a cited article title followed ... Guideline 2 of WP:SOVEREIGN at the time APT published his information originally]
"{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"format, which WP:NCROY currently rules is unnecessary for a monarch with an unambiguous regnal name like Juliana.
"{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"titling format. Likewise, Alfonso XII, Alfonso XIII, Juan Carlos I, and Felipe VI should all be moved back to Alfonso XII of Spain, Alfonso XIII of Spain, Juan Carlos I of Spain, and Felipe VI of Spain because the majority (i.e. 7 out of 11) of Spanish House of Bourbon-Anjou monarchs are titled with the
"{Monarch's first name and ordinal} of {Country}"template.
Everyone should aspire to write concisely, and those who fail to do so forfeit the right to others' attention.This applies to you. Your extended rationale was originally 44kB and it's now even larger. You refer back to another 10kB behemoth here. You have failed to write concisely, and it is unreasonable of you to expect every word to be cogitated on carefully by every contributor to the page. Kahastok talk 17:42, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
There was a time, when all the bios of monarchs were in the style of Name # of country. Due to multiple RMs? that consistency has been evaporated, which (IMHO) is regrettable. GoodDay ( talk) 22:13, 23 November 2023 (UTC)
Here's examples of confusion we've left for less familiar readers, concerning page names. We've got a monarch's page called Queen Victoria & a consort's page called Queen Camilla. There's German/Prussia monarchs, William I of Germany & Wilhelm II. But let's not forget (and plenty of examples of these) many current monarchs with no mention of their country, while their consorts mention the country. GoodDay ( talk) 14:35, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
@ DrKay: I've been considering accepting an moratoriom on RMs in this area, after this current RFC ends. In these last few weeks, RMs on monarch bios have been popping up frequently, with some closures (IMHO) highly questionable. GoodDay ( talk) 19:00, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
Comment to those who support Option 2 - I understand and respect the opinions that you are expressing in this RfC. However, my core issue with WP:COMMONNAME (and by extension, the guidelines of WP:NCROY that are based off of it) is that there is no explicit numerical threshold or ratio that can be used to select one "common" article title over another.
Evidently, to establish an arbitrary WP:COMMONNAME proportion across all subject areas is impractical. However, in my opinion, this lack of a specific cutoff for WP:NCROY in particular is why the RMs for European monarchs have been so numerous, so heated, and so inconclusive. A community of multiple editors is reasonably going to have differing interpretations over what title is "more common" in secondary and other reliable sources. If we do not agree upon a specific numerical ratio to refer to, I worry that this discussion is simply going to appear again at a later date with a more unproductive tone. Hurricane Andrew ( 444) 21:41, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
In the tables, I note "Adherence to WP:NCROY". While it is noted, once, in the rather lengthy text, that this refers to the articles' present adherence to the former version of WP:NCROY, such may be missed by participants who are being given an awful lot of material to sort through, and who may, quite understandably, believe that what is being alleged is that those article titles presently do not comply with WP:NCROY, and form opinions based on that misapprehension. Can it not be made clear in each table that what is being referred to is whether the present article title would comply with the old version of the policy?-- Wehwalt ( talk) 02:39, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
The deciding factor in the end, is editors. If a large enough number of editors want a page titled a certain way, that's most likely how that page will be titled. Gradually, "of country" is being 'removed' from bios of monarchs. I wonder, will heirs-apparent/presumptive, consorts & other royal family members be next? That does appear to be the direction that the winds are blowing in. GoodDay ( talk) 19:25, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
The below statement was modified at 23:46, 25 November 2023 (UTC). This disclosure is added per WP:TALK#REVISE.
After observing how the tone of this discussion has gone, I have made the decision to
WP:BOLDly withdraw my RfC. I had hoped that this conversation would be an opportunity to clarify matters regarding how European sovereigns should be titled. Unfortunately, many participants did not see this RfC the way I did, and that simply caused more frustrations to arise. I sincerely apologize for the confusion that was caused because of this RfC.
I accept that Option 4 in particular will likely be a thing of the past, and I will not challenge this
WP:CONSENSUS from now on. That being said, I still personally believe that
WP:CONSISTENT is a useful goal to keep in mind for the
WP:TITLE of articles. In addition, I still believe that a
WP:MORATORIUM should be imposed for renaming British monarchs' titles in particular in the next 365 days.
Finally, thank you to all who participated, regardless of whether you supported my proposals or not. Even though the discussion did not go as I hoped, this experience was a great opportunity for me to learn the mechanics of a RfC.
Hurricane
Andrew (
444) 19:55, 25 November 2023 (UTC)
I assume all is well? The RFC 'here' is closed & the RM concerning Edward I & company, is still open. Anyways, somebody responded to my recommendation that the said-RM be closed after 3 weeks running. I presume the closure, will be happening soon. GoodDay ( talk) 00:40, 26 November 2023 (UTC)
A request. May we please have RM notifications brought here (at this WikiProject), so editors won't miss such RMs? With so many of them ocurring, some opened before others are closed, it can be difficult to keep up & easy to miss. In the meantime, we've got WP:RM as our current tracker. GoodDay ( talk) 03:29, 29 November 2023 (UTC)
As many of you will be aware, following the NCROY change there have been many requested moves. That's a lot of intense discussions which largely cover the same ground. As a peripherally-involved editor I think it would do everyone the world of good to have a break, perhaps until the new year. What do you think? A.D.Hope ( talk) 11:21, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
FYI, there's a discussion under way at WT:MOSBIO#JOBTITLES simplification proposal that potentially impacts this wikiproject and in particular the WP:NCROY naming conventions. Rosbif73 ( talk) 12:40, 5 December 2023 (UTC)
Monarchies in the Americas has been nominated for a good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 ( talk) 23:45, 2 January 2024 (UTC)
Just for my own personal research, would anyone be able to tell me how many Wikipedia articles are in the scope of Wikipedia:WikiProject Royalty and Nobility? Thnak you. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 00:49, 9 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello, WikiProject,
I'd appreciate if some knowledgable editor could look over this article and evaluate whether this person's royal claim (from 400 years ago) is real or this is effectively a promotional hoax article that should be tagged for some form of deletion. Thanks for any help you can offer. Liz Read! Talk! 03:06, 11 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Wedding of Grand Duke George Mikhailovich of Russia and Rebecca Virginia Bettarini#Requested move 16 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 08:56, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Heads of former ruling families#Requested move 13 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 09:21, 16 January 2024 (UTC)
Hello, I've started an rfc on the inclusion of Frederik X's hosue, if so which, and how. Not experienced in rfc's either, so comments and advice are much appreciated. EmilySarah99 ( talk) 10:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Francis Phoebus of Navarre#Requested move 15 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 02:38, 21 January 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Nicholas II of Russia#Requested move 24 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 22:53, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
I know we had this massive discussion, but that, I think, ended with the initiator pulling out and resulted in nothing. Now we have articles being moved left, right and centre, and quite frankly, I know a lot of editors, including myself I will admit, are tired of seeing articles break convention and removing consistency on Wikipedia. Why do Margrethe II and Frederik X not have the "of Denmark", but Frederick VIII of Denmark and Christian IX of Denmark do? Why does every single Dutch monarch have "of the Netherlands", even though many of them do not have the same name as any other monarch? Why should Nicholas II of Russia be moved to "Nicholas II" because he is the primary topic, even though that would make that article completely inconsistent with all other Russian monarchs articles? It is clear that monarchs without the "of {country}" are monarchs that have ruled in the past 200 or so years, so isn't this bias from Wikipedia, favouring the present? On Wikipedia, it used to be customary for all monarchs' articles to have "of {country}" (unless of course there is an alternate common name like Charlemagne or Alexander the Great). British monarchs were always an exception and to me that seems fair enough since this is the English Wikipedia and they are going to be of most interest to English-reading viewers. I am bringing this to light because I think it is time that we have a proper discussion. I am not calling for an RFC (not yet, at least) nor for an argument, just for a simple discussion so we can commence talks. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 23:12, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
Wikipedians must place the interests of the encyclopedia and its readers above personal concerns. And as frustrating as the RfC outcome that started this recent tidal wave on retitling European sovereigns' articles may be, it was a reflection of WP:CONSENSUS, which is the core of how decisions should be made on Wikipedia.
proper discussionthat is recommended in the original post, I have already started two of these. They did not change the consensus of the community.
User:GrandDukeMarcelo opened discussions on a few pages eg link, regarding the use of the royalty infobox over the pretender infobox for members of families of abolished monarchies. This kind of discussion has come up before in the history of a few different pages. I think a policy to only use the Pretender Infobox for those making an active claim and/or head of house with a claim would make sense (whether or not a monarchy exists as the word "pretender" at least tells you they are not reigning).
I feel it's incorrect to use the Royalty Infobox for descendants multiple generations down from an abolished monarchy. It would be more correct to not use the royal infobox for these other people as it implies a currently reigning royal family exists and by definition they are not royal. Perhaps a new infobox template could exist or ideally Person Infobox should be used instead. Opinions? D1551D3N7 ( talk) 20:40, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
I feel it's incorrect to use the Royalty Infobox for descendants multiple generations down from an abolished monarchy. It would be more correct to not use the royal infobox for these other people as it implies a currently reigning royal family exists and by definition they are not royal.Agree 100%. Unfortunately many of the biographies of such people were originally written in a fantasist style, with lots of fake titles, unsourced, unencyclopedic family trees, and poor quality in-universe sourcing. This doesn't so much require a policy as it requires competent editing by people with a lot of time and energy .... -- JBL ( talk) 21:10, 7 February 2024 (UTC)
IMHO, there should be no infoboxes for pretenders. GoodDay ( talk) 20:00, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Yang di-Pertuan Agong#Requested move 4 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 21:29, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
An editor seems to believe that Grand Duke Konstantin Pavlovich of Russia was Emperor of Russia from 1-26 December 1825. Historians (and Konstantin's 1823 renounciation) says otherwise. See Konstantin's bio page & List of Russian monarchs, etc. GoodDay ( talk) 07:08, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
I am just notifying editors of this discussion here, which may be of interest to this WikiProject. - Therealscorp1an ( talk) 08:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Zog I of Albania#Requested move 14 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 01:23, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Otto II, Holy Roman Emperor#Requested move 27 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 14:45, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
I have noticed that all the children of the Prince and Princess of all Royal families in Europe have their own articles. While the articles on the children of Princess Madeleine, Duchess of Hälsingland and Gästrikland and Prince Carl Philip, Duke of Värmland have all in AfDs in the part been redirected to their parents articles. Why? And for consistency I propose that we re-create their articles as well. BabbaQ ( talk) 07:47, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pharnavaz I of Iberia#Requested move 6 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. RodRabelo7 ( talk) 00:42, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Isabella I of Castile#Requested move 29 February 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Векочел ( talk) 13:10, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
I noticed that Princess Mathilde of Schönburg-Waldenburg, Princess Augusta of Schwarzburg-Sondershausen, and Theodora of Hesse-Darmstadt which each had AFDs that agreed on turning them into redirects as seen here, here, and here, had them turned back into articles that are more or less article to their previous versions. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 00:47, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Mark Phillips#Requested move 27 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 07:46, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Catherine, Princess of Wales § Simplicity and concision. Aaron Liu ( talk) 12:52, 5 April 2024 (UTC)
Several of the requested moves listed on the main page have been open for several months. 98.228.137.44 ( talk) 03:40, 19 April 2024 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Sarukhan, Bey of Magnesia#Requested move 9 March 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 14:22, 19 April 2024 (UTC)