This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why have you permitted somebody to post inaccurate statistics on this page?,not only post them,but he has protected them. GaryS ( talk) 10:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
It seems this is a good place to suggest an edit on the "Religion" section of this article. I was thinking about adding the following wording to this article or something like it: "Some articles involving religion can be controversial by nature such as articles specifically linking religion, or non-religion; with morality, culture, gender, criticism, science, etc. Due to the controversial nature of such articles, where groups of people from one belief system/worldview are compared and contrasted with other groups of people from other belief systems/worldviews, some degree of neutrality and balance may be achieved by providing introductory-type sections that provide background context of religion, or non-religion, and the variable(s) embedded in the article (e.g. morality, culture, gender, criticism, science, etc) based on reliable sources. Adding such introductory-type sections in a controversial article, would help establish the complexity of religion, or non-religion, people, and also the sophistication of interactions between variable(s) embedded in the article (e.g. morality, culture, gender, criticism, science, etc). This would limit the reductionism of people's beliefs with their actions in real life especially since correlations do not necessarily mean causation."
I am thinking about articles like Criticism of Islam where a formal and short introduction section to Islam would be beneficial to readers since it would be important to have some context as to what Islam is understood as, before the criticisms sections. Especially since there are diverse understanding of Islam among the Muslim community. Any comments on this? Huitzilopochtli1990 ( talk) 06:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Regarding Star Wars: The Last Jedi, there appears to be a growing consensus to state that there was a "divisive" response from audiences where there is zero evidence of this from controlled polling. There is commentary about so-called divisiveness based on uncontrolled user scores (mainly the one on Rotten Tomatoes). The so-called editor consensus is essentially based on unscientific conclusions (especially when we have scientific conclusions already). This policy states that editor consensus cannot supersede it, but I am concerned that is what is going to happen here. This looks like it may become an issue with Black Panther too. Please see the RfC here: Talk:Star Wars: The Last Jedi#RfC: Which version of the Audience response section should we go with?. Thanks, Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 16:34, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Just reverted a series of edits to the WP:BALANCE section. The reason is largely summarized by combining the first edited sentence and the last. The first changes "when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence" to also include "or if such contradictions amongst reliable sources tends to reveal that "the verdict is still out" amongst the leading experts in that field". And then a sentence was added to the end: "In such cases assign equal or balanced weight to such contending views while describing them." This is a formula for WP:FALSEBALANCE. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
IMHO there are a few issues with the "Balance" section, but not related to One passer by's edits or comments:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:15, 9 March 2018 (UTC); added #4 -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
According to the definition of articles requiring "balanced arguments," only articles where both opposing views are supported by a "relatively equal" amount of sources (prominence), is "balance" required in the arguments presented in an article. The question has been put forward, "How would our "Balance policy" apply to an article on Creationism? Being as in this subject, clearly the majority of authorative sources (scientists) favor the likelihood of the Evolution theory being the "correct theory," therefore Balanced and "relatively equally weighted" arguments would not be a goal in such an article. At least that is my understanding of when "balanced arguments" should be the goal, and should not be the goal, in an article. One passer by ( talk) 16:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
It never happens that "reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence." TFD ( talk) 04:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
An assertion seems to have been made that when there is a "relatively equal prominence" amongst sources, that editors should not be asked to try to write such that neither side is favored, because writing like that is "too hard of a stance." Yes, it is always more difficult to write so that neither side is favored, but just because such writing is "harder" does that mean we should not at least officially aim for this goal?
@ Rhododendrites: if I may not be understanding your argument correctly, please clarify what you meant by saying that asking editors in articles where "balance" is asked for, to write without favoring either side is "too hard of a stance?" One passer by ( talk) 15:20, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I didn't have any specific article in mind when I proposed here that "balanced articles should not be weighted to favor either side." I merely felt that in general, Wikipedia editors writing on controversial topics where there are two contending viewpoints being discussed, both with arguably relatively equal prominence, then editors should be encouraged to describe both sides without weighting for or against either side. Here is a recent example: The WP article on Stephen Miller describes him as "far-right" in the article lead. Miller himself describes himself instead as a "nationalist" and not as a "far-right" person. I proposed on that article's talk page that both voices could be fairly described, both Miller's self-description, and the NYTimes' description, and was shot down.
It seems to me that Wikipedia is always improved and enhanced when it is not trying to make itself out to be the arbiter and authority of who is right and who is wrong in cases of unsettled political controversies. And no, I have not edited the Stephen Miller article itself, and have no intention to do so. I only proposed this on that article's talk page to see what the reaction might be. I'm merely concerned with the tendency when dealing with clearly unsettled topics, of editors to use "The Voice of Wikipedia" to do what seems to me to be furthering only one view. One passer by ( talk) 07:06, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
The nuts and bolts of the policy are not very usable. In a dispute, how is one going to determine the amount of coverage in sources? Also in many areas, the "sources" have instead become participants / advocates. One useful way to go would be to emphasize that the objective of every line and every paragraph should be to inform. Also getting degree of wp:relevance into in inclusion/exclusion equation would help. When writing about topic "A", other participant's opinions and talking points about topic "A" are one step removed in relevance and because of that should need to meet a higher standard to get included. North8000 ( talk) 11:16, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Here is a simple slight rewording to the Balance section that might do something like what North8000 suggested:
This simple rewording might give this section applicability to the Stephen Miller article, as well as other similar situations, thus making the balance section more intelligible and usable. Otherwise it confuses me as to how anything that is supposedly "balanced" could also be weighted towards one side or another? One passer by ( talk) 15:02, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Something that I've talked to before that is coming up here again is that it is hard to try to determine an appropriately neutral angle that we should write an encyclopedic article while a controversial topic is still ongoing and controversial; we are far too close to the event, and there are likely few sources giving the necessary hindsight to understand how to accurately weight the topic w.r.t. to UNDUE. It is one thing to talk about Flat Earthers ; we have centuries of data from objective scientific study and direct observation to be able to say this is is a fringe theory, so we can readily determine what its appropriate weight should be when talking about the nature of Earth (read: none). However, when we talk about a current person in a spotlight (the example highlighted above), that's a bit different. There's no expert sources looking back here, but instead speaking to the now, and there are elements of a dependent media that has made it clear it does not like the far right that brings into question of their bias on the matter. We can't properly apply UNDUE at this point to determine what viewpoints have appropriate weight. That doesn't mean UNDUE can't apply, but we have to be careful presuming the loudest side is "right". There are a number of BLP related issues beyond this scope that also come into play.
Basically this page should reflect that UNDUE should not be so intensely followed as some what it to be when we are talking a current controversy that lacks the necessary long-term expert review to resolve. If we're still in it, we should be more careful to at least outline before sides before delving into excessive coverage of the stance of the heavily-weighted side from RSes. We should also be aware, per RECENTISM, that we shouldn't try to load up on the opinions from the heavily-weighted side just because it has the most representation in the RSes. Once time has passed and this may take years, we can then look back and see how to be determine the balance as deemed by expert RSes and UNDUE at that point. -- Masem ( t) 16:27, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
I strongly support Masem's and One passer by's analysis and points, even though you are talking about two different things. I think One passer by hit on the Rosetta stone. Who says we should be making a "balanced opinion piece" out of an ENCYCLOPEDIA article? North8000 ( talk) 17:46, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
The relative prominence of each viewpoint among Wikipedia editors or the general public is not relevant and should not be considered.
...articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects.Who determines what is or isn't the minority view, and according to whose perspective do we determine what comprises a minority or widespread view? Such interpretations require sound editorial judgment, see WP:CIR, especially when it involves topics relating to race, religion, gender, ideologies, and various other societal/cultural aspects. WP should not be making such determinations in the first place which brings us back to the systematic review process.
means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.Atsme 📞 📧 20:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@
Wario-Man,
Ntrikha, and
Corriebertus: and other Wikipedians:
Working on Wikipedia can be interesting, but it can at times also be tiresome or annoying, when we come across deliberate or inadvertent 'mistakes' or 'wrong edits' of colleagues. In such situations, we can minimize annoyances for everyone and keep the disputes as short as possible by being clear and precise in our edit summaries and discussions. (This holds for me too; I'm always glad if others point out to me that my language wasn't as clear as I had supposed it to be.)
Here I'd like to comment on the term 'pov' which I often see used incorrectly, and I'll illustrate that with an edit summary of our well-respected colleague Wario-Man, whom I've asked why he used edit summary "Removed pov (…)" recently on page Afghanistan in April 2018 – not to blame Wario-Man: he's possibly repeating a mistake (many) others before him have made. The words he removed then from that article were: "and Hindi", in section Afghanistan#Etymology, which words asserted that "-stan" means "place of" in Hindi.
From his answer (2April2018) I gather that he had five reasons to remove (the statement expressed in) those words: that statement to his opinion was:
Ad 1 and 2.) Those first two reasons: 'incorrect' and 'unsourced' – which I believe both have nothing to do with 'pov' (see point 5) – together would constitute a very good reason to act, in one of two ways, at choice for the editor: (a) If the presumedly wrong assertion seems not gravely harming the article, one might first adhere the template citation needed to it and come back later to remove the (wrong) assertion all together; (b) If you feel the wrong assertion to be seriously misleading the readers you can remove it immediately. But then I'd recommend editors to clearly state those two motives in the edit summary. For example: "this is untrue, and it is unsourced", or: "this seems untrue and it is unsourced". That is clear, and gives the opposing editor a fair chance to come up with a source and prove you wrong.
Ad 3.) Irrelevance can in general be a very good reason to remove text, but in this case the reason 'irrelevant' seems not applicable. If I'd write an abstract of the Pope's speech of last Eastern Sunday in section Afgh#Etymology it would be irrelevant there (= off-topic, not concerning the issue of that section). But statements concerning the background of '-stan' are very relevant in that section (and if they are untrue they are relevantly misleading readers).
Ad 4.) 'Personal opinion' (of a previous editor) can never be a ground for reverting an edit.
First of all: we can't know what another editor has been thinking, believing, feeling, suspecting or presuming a year ago, unless he tells us.
Secondly: it is very likely, that 99% of all edits reflect facts that the editor at that time (to his 'opinion') considered to be correct (the other 1% are probably what we'd call
vandalism). But we wouldn't want to remove those 99% of all edits, simply because the editors who made them believed they were writing a true fact, do we? We remove edits because they seem wrong (see under point 1), not because someone considered them right.
Ad 5.) For "pov", in the given example Wario-Man referred to policy page Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (NPOV). That page as I understand deals purely with fair, balanced and proportionate representation of different (conflicting) significant views that exist on a topic, in Wikipedia articles. An assertion like '-stan meaning place of in Hindi' in article 'Afghanistan', unsourced, untrue according to Wario-Man, therefore (in his eyes) not significant for Wikipedia, I don't see how that would have any relation to any rule or advise expressed on policy page WP:NPOV. -- Corriebertus ( talk) 15:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The following sentence that I rewrote is difficult to comprehend in my opinion and needs a fresh approach: "The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased...." One suggestion to make the phrasing slightly less opaque would be to use hyphens: "The bias-in-sources argument...." However, that phrase is awkward any way you slice it. Stylistically, the repetition of "biased" at the end and beginning of consecutive sentences is needlessly ungraceful. The meaning of the phrase "sources that dispute the POV" is unclear. An article should have no POV to be disputed. Perhaps the phrase means that biased sources can dispute each other. But the wording does not make this clear. My suggestion for a simpler and readily comprehensible sentence would be:
"Some editors argue that biased sources should be excluded in order to maintain the neutral POV of an article."
DonFB ( talk) 07:23, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
That sentence reveals a common and serious misunderstanding of the policy:
"Some editors argue that biased sources should be excluded in order to maintain the neutral POV of an article."
NPOV policy expressly allows the use of biased sources in articles. NPOV refers to editorial conduct, and not so much to sources or content. That sentence seems to be based on the false idea that content must be "neutral". That's BS. Our job, per Jimbo, is to document the sum total of human knowledge, and that includes irrefutable facts, theories, allegations, conspiracy theories, lies, fringe ideas, rumors, etc. We document all of it if it's reported in RS. If it's only reported in unreliable sources, it may not get any mention.
That's why understanding sourcing, knowing what sources are reliable for some purposes, and how to vet sources, is fundamental to almost everything at Wikipedia. It all starts there. NPOV and most other policies come after that. A failure to understand this leads to many problems.
It is editors who must be neutral in their documentation of biased sources. They must preserve that bias and not get in the way. Tell it like it is, in the source, and not how you'd like it to be. I've written a whole essay about this: NPOV means neutral editors, not neutral content. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 02:53, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
DonFB - your suggestion: "Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used, because they introduce POV to an article."
is good - to the point...and it's certainly true that biased sources introduce POV to an article which is why opposing views should also be included. I support your rewording. Now then, you can stop reading at this point if you'd like, but I think the confusion stems much deeper and a bit more clarity is needed in the policy.
NPOV is unequivocally clear that (my strikes for needed grammar corrections): "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies, or guidelines, nor or by editor consensus. While it all sounds good, it's hard to determine how it applies and what it means. If we take it at face value, what are the procedures for identifying an attempt by editor consensus to supersede the policy, and what steps should be taken if/when a challenge arises?
The other glaring issue relates to Due and undue weight, particularly:
Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity, or give undue weight to a particular view.
...in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.[3] Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. The flat earth theory is used as the example.
That simply doesn't work as it was originally intended, particularly as it relates to political articles because of the 21st Century changes to our news delivery system. We have transitioned from printed news based on journalistic objectivity to internet news based on journalistic opinion and baitclick revenue. It appears to me Balancing aspects is far more appropriate for political articles than UNDUE/DUE. Unfortunately, some of the arguments we encounter have not kept up with the times. Considering NPOV cannot be superseded by editor consensus, the question is...how do we enforce that part of the policy? In retrospect, WP's (Nupedia's) earliest
policies emphasized lack of bias which used the following test: This question is a good (albeit not infallible) test of a lack of bias: "On every issue about which there might be even minor dispute among experts on this subject, is it very difficult or impossible for the reader to determine what the view is to which the author adheres? This requires that, for each controversial view discussed, the author of an article (at a bare minimum) mention various opposing views that are taken seriously by any significant minority of experts (or concerned parties) on the subject.
What a wonderfully utopian expectation...and logical fallacy. So how do we enforce NPOV when editor consensus supersedes it or when POV pushers outnumber their opponents in either local or RfC consensus surveys?
Atsme
📞
📧 18:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Hat inappropriate attack in the middle of an unrelated discussion.---v/r - T P 18:12, 30 April 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
I don't even remember anymore what brought me here to look at the "Bias in sources" section, but when I read the 2nd (misbegotten) sentence, I felt compelled to make an improvement. The sentence is an example of collaborative editing gone wrong--overwritten, muddled and confusing. My purpose here has not been to debate Due and Balance and POV, etc. I support the meaning of the section, namely: it's not prohibited to use biased sources. Absent objections, I will again replace the 2nd sentence, this time with my most recent suggested wording, which is: "Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used, because they introduce POV to an article." I will add the word "However," to the beginning of the next sentence. DonFB ( talk) 00:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
??? Stickee, I'm a bit surprised you reverted me. I had an agreement above with DonFB (search for "fair enough" above), and Flyer22 Reborn didn't exclude the idea, even though they preferred the latter location.
I had already explained above why the latter location is simply wrong, not just an acceptable alternative location.
It makes a substantive difference by making a wrong idea seem okay. It's not okay for editors to see a POV as "improper POV" when they edit. That judgment is made in the context of providing the proper weight to various POV. It is thus the weight of RS which makes the judgment, not editors. That way editors with opposing POV must bow to the primacy of the sources, not to the dictates of a majority of editors who hold one POV.
If editors initially make that judgment, they are not being neutral, but using their own POV (and editors will have opposing POV, so the results of this practice will be chaos) to censor or favor content they like or don't like.
No, they must faithfully document the biased POV in a source. Let due weight considerations sort out exactly where and how much of each POV is included, but not whether it's included at all. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 04:15, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
Here's a comparison of the current content with the older version (the strike out is only so we can focus on the part that's changing, not because it will actually be deleted):
Original: The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
[1]
Current: Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used because they introduce improper POV to an article. However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
[2]
I think the original is better than the new propostion, but I admit it's rather muddled wording, which I assume is the reason for the attempt to improve it, and improvement is always welcome. My analysis of the original says that we're trying to rebut an improper attempt by editors to exclude sources whose bias they don't like, while they claim that the biased source they do like is actually neutral (or something like that). If we're going to continue down this path of changing the original, let me propose a different wording:
Original: The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
Proposed: An improper argument against using biased sources is sometimes made by editors in an effort to exclude sources whose bias they do not like. However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 14:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
This type of statement comes up a lot in sources for a certain class of articles. I was wondering what others here thought about this.
The type of statements that the header encompasses are prescriptive statements cached version of this link (a type of normative statement which indicates an obligation with words like "should", "ought to" or "must"). Normative statements are opinions according to opinion#Epistemology and [3], among other references. I noticed that WP:ASSERT gives examples of facts and opinions as uncontested and seriously contested assertions, but examples are not an exhaustive list; so, I was wondering if statements like this are considered an opinion or a fact in relation to WP:WikiVoice. In other words, do statements like this constitute a fact or an opinion in relation to WP:WikiVoice? Seppi333 ( Insert 2¢) 01:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
I made this set of edits, about the below, and then self-reverted. I think these edits express the living consensus of the editing community, that simply has not been captured in this document.
This policy, pretty much since it was created, has been focused on real world disputes that get carried into WP - for example, that original text focused on "capitalism" vs "anti-capitalism" (to roughly summarize it). The current policy mentions the evolution/creationism dispute.
That is all good, but...
I work a lot on advocacy issues in WP. What I find very often, is somebody promoting (less commonly, denigrating) someone, something, or some idea, by generating big swaths of UNDUE content, sourced to primary, often SPS, sources. That is an issue with regard to this policy.
Two examples of this would be:
Neither of those are in the context of a dispute, mind you. It is just about somebody promoting something or someone or some idea. Using a bunch of SPS or primary sources creates content that fails NPOV, since by definition what is going on there is
Neither of those is inherently about real world disputes, and this policy as written fails to deal with these issues, which are not uncommon.
My work on this led me to think about it, and to write this little essay on my userpage about relying mostly on independent, secondary sources.
In the current policy, there is exactly one line about this, in
WP:BALANCE. It says Neutrality assigns
weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint.
. Do you see how this is focused on disputes?
The section on WP:UNDUE is also focused on disputes, and expresses our consensus on how to deal with disputes pretty well.
But it doesn't deal with UNDUE in the sense of something vs nothing or a lot vs a little -- of "blown up out of SPS and primary sources to create content where there are few to no independent, secondary sources about it".
I ~think~ the stuff in my edits expresses the living consensus of the community. Am interested to see how others view these proposed changes. Jytdog ( talk) 17:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
the body of reliable, published material on the subject.leaves for example non-independent sources on the table as part of the "body" and those really should not come into play. Jytdog ( talk) 01:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
"We" have had an argument over at /info/en/?search=Ohio_gubernatorial_election,_2018 . I have tried to add a green party candidate which came upon great resistance after her getting picture into the infobox. Undue focus on the conventional parties perpetuates polarity. Dael4 ( talk) 04:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
This process begins by finding reasonably recent, high quality, independent, secondary reliable sources, and studying them, to learn how the experts in the given field define and describe the subject, and summarizing what those sources say. Sources are authoritative, not editors.
Is it even possible at all? No human being alive is unbiased about anything at all, social psychology research seems to have demonstrated this fairly rigorously. Even my view point on this very comment is biased, whether I intend that to be the case or not. No matter how hard I might try, or you might try, at the end of the day every single comment made by every single one of us is going to contain an immeasurable amount of bias. What's the point in trying to mitigate it? Seems like a futile endeavor. I suspect such a policy will more likely be used as a flimsy justification for censoring some viewpoints over others. Doesn't sound like a good idea if a healthy and open community is to be fostered. Just my biased two cents, of course, food for thought, perhaps. Perhaps not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.61.182.221 ( talk • contribs) 11:12, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
"We" have had an argument over at /info/en/?search=Ohio_gubernatorial_election,_2018 . I have tried to add a green party candidate which came upon great resistance after her getting picture into the infobox. Undue focus on the conventional parties perpetuates polarity. Dael4 ( talk) 04:42, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Sucks to see this go unaddressed. Encourage fellow wikipedians to pick up the mighty pen (keyboard) and fight against unjustified censorship on Wikipedia. CanisLupisArctus ( talk) 01:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Per an ongoing dispute on Talk:Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market, is there any requirement or recommendation that, per NPOV, facts and opinions related to an article subject must be separated or insulated from each other in-text? ViperSnake151 Talk 21:56, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Milwaukee Bucks#RfC for team colors
This is really beyond the Milwaukee Bucks or even sports in particular, and relevant to coverage of organizations and their
house styles generally. This touches on all of:
WP:NPOV,
WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE,
WP:NOR,
MOS:CAPS, and
MOS:TM, in various aspects (see the more detailed discussion below the !vote section).
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 19:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
TWO FALSEHOODS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT - SO TO SPEAK. TERM INFLATION (LOADING AND FRAMING) IS JUST FALSEHOOD
I specialize in Testimony (particularly scientific testimony), and so I'm sensitive to misrepresentation by term inflation (Loading and Framing).
Misrepresentation: 1-Forgery(crime), 2-Counterfeit(Crime), 3-Fraud(crime), 4-Hoax(Attention Seeking or Practical Joke), 5-Fictionalism(pseudoscience, pseudorationalism, supernatural) 6-Propaganda(Loading, Framing, Obscuring), 7-Fiction(Entertaining Inflation or 'Gossip')
- A Forgery must misrepresent authorship of for the purpose of profiting from the premium in an exchange due to that authorship.
- A Counterfeit must misrepresent it's identity (trademark, weight and measure) for the purpose of obtaining a premium on its exchange.
- A Fraud must misrepresent information by word, act or implication for the purpose of profiting from an exchange.
- A Hoax must create physical misrepresentation by suggestion for the purpose of gathering attention (marketing), providing entertainment, or humor (practical joke).
- A Fictionalism must make use of pseudoscience (failure of due diligence) or magic, idealism or sophistry, and/or the supernatural or occult.
- Propaganda must provide information of a biased or misleading nature, to promote or publicize a political objective.
- A Deceit ("deceit or gossip") must used to load, frame, suggest, or obscure causality for the purpose of avoiding or creating harm.
- A Fiction must only entertain by coloring the information without necessarily engaging in deception.
For example:
- Michelangelo began his sculpting career by misrepresenting his early marble sculpture, Sleeping Eros as a Roman original so he could sell it at a premium - first by burying it and then digging up and 'discovering' - That was a Forgery.
- Alves Dos Reis forged a contract from the Banco de Portugal so that he could acquire banknotes from official printers – meaning his notes were identical to the state's. That was a Forgery followed by Counterfeiting.
- Feed the Children and Bernie Madoff. People donated money to this religious organization with the intention of helping starving children, but it was privatized. People gave money to Bernie Madoff to invest but he create created the biggest pyramid scheme in history. These are famous frauds but not counterfeiting, or Forgery or Hoaxes.
- The Voynich Manuscript was produced (as far as we know) as a Hoax or a Fraud - but not propaganda or fiction.
- The Protocols of Zion are clearly a Hoax, and clearly Propaganda - and the most currently famous.
- The vast body of mathematics is constructed upon mathematical idealism (platonism) in which some mathematical reality exists. This is a bad habit held over from antiquity, whereas all of mathematics (measurement by positional names) consists of correspondence and a small number of rudimentary operations. That a Fictionalism.
- The founding books of the three abrahamic religions are both propaganda and fictions - and the most universal.
- Crichton's Eaters of the Dead is a fictional account attributed to Ibn Fadlan - it is a fiction(entertainment), but not propaganda, hoax, or fraud.
- History and Record: out of necessity, histories and records are constructed by framing the complex so that it is comprehensible.
Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:188:4100:1304:81A5:A7AD:18E3:DA3D ( talk) 16:41, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#The_intersection_of_BLPSPS_and_PSCI Jytdog ( talk) 19:00, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
"Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts as well as from modern archaeological, historical, and scientific sources." - ONLY articles on religion should be drawn from sacred texts. For articles on history, sacred texts should either not be considered, or be included as historical sources with suitable justification for its inclusion as such a source. SecC ( talk) 17:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
"Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith because in their view such analysis discriminates against their religious beliefs." - If this is the case, it should be ignored. These adherents are absolutely incorrect as they have no reason to believe that such treatment "discriminates" against their religious beliefs. A historical treatment by definition involves no bias.
Fair enough. My second point is not addressed, however. SecC ( talk) 17:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Input is appreciated here - Please see this discussion on how NPOV affects the selection of 10 album ratings in an album ratings box for critical reception sections, considering the overall reception of an album (negative, mixed or positive). Lapadite ( talk) 06:37, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
A new RfC has started that concerns if an old sentence at WP:NPOV_dispute accurately reflects NPOV policy, please see Wikipedia talk:NPOV dispute#RfC: POV Pushing On Talk Pages - Obsidi ( talk) 14:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Things like:
- Israel vs Palestine conflict - River Plate vs Boca rivalry - George Bush vs Al Gore debate
etc..
which can be found on titles, lists, rankings and infoboxes I would propose suggesting alphabetical order or oldness (when appliable) as an arbitrary principle in the NPOV policy
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.57.22.44 ( talk) 23:30, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Due to NPOV editors, editing wikipedia, Nathuram Godse is a terrorist and Ajmal Kasab is a militant, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed is a militant, Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi] is a leader. This is the reason I left Wikipedia. Yakub Memon is Indian citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpinesundra ( talk • contribs) 12:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Why have you permitted somebody to post inaccurate statistics on this page?,not only post them,but he has protected them. GaryS ( talk) 10:57, 19 September 2017 (UTC)
It seems this is a good place to suggest an edit on the "Religion" section of this article. I was thinking about adding the following wording to this article or something like it: "Some articles involving religion can be controversial by nature such as articles specifically linking religion, or non-religion; with morality, culture, gender, criticism, science, etc. Due to the controversial nature of such articles, where groups of people from one belief system/worldview are compared and contrasted with other groups of people from other belief systems/worldviews, some degree of neutrality and balance may be achieved by providing introductory-type sections that provide background context of religion, or non-religion, and the variable(s) embedded in the article (e.g. morality, culture, gender, criticism, science, etc) based on reliable sources. Adding such introductory-type sections in a controversial article, would help establish the complexity of religion, or non-religion, people, and also the sophistication of interactions between variable(s) embedded in the article (e.g. morality, culture, gender, criticism, science, etc). This would limit the reductionism of people's beliefs with their actions in real life especially since correlations do not necessarily mean causation."
I am thinking about articles like Criticism of Islam where a formal and short introduction section to Islam would be beneficial to readers since it would be important to have some context as to what Islam is understood as, before the criticisms sections. Especially since there are diverse understanding of Islam among the Muslim community. Any comments on this? Huitzilopochtli1990 ( talk) 06:23, 17 October 2017 (UTC)
Regarding Star Wars: The Last Jedi, there appears to be a growing consensus to state that there was a "divisive" response from audiences where there is zero evidence of this from controlled polling. There is commentary about so-called divisiveness based on uncontrolled user scores (mainly the one on Rotten Tomatoes). The so-called editor consensus is essentially based on unscientific conclusions (especially when we have scientific conclusions already). This policy states that editor consensus cannot supersede it, but I am concerned that is what is going to happen here. This looks like it may become an issue with Black Panther too. Please see the RfC here: Talk:Star Wars: The Last Jedi#RfC: Which version of the Audience response section should we go with?. Thanks, Erik ( talk | contrib) ( ping me) 16:34, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
Just reverted a series of edits to the WP:BALANCE section. The reason is largely summarized by combining the first edited sentence and the last. The first changes "when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence" to also include "or if such contradictions amongst reliable sources tends to reveal that "the verdict is still out" amongst the leading experts in that field". And then a sentence was added to the end: "In such cases assign equal or balanced weight to such contending views while describing them." This is a formula for WP:FALSEBALANCE. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 14:23, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
IMHO there are a few issues with the "Balance" section, but not related to One passer by's edits or comments:
-- Francis Schonken ( talk) 16:15, 9 March 2018 (UTC); added #4 -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 17:03, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
According to the definition of articles requiring "balanced arguments," only articles where both opposing views are supported by a "relatively equal" amount of sources (prominence), is "balance" required in the arguments presented in an article. The question has been put forward, "How would our "Balance policy" apply to an article on Creationism? Being as in this subject, clearly the majority of authorative sources (scientists) favor the likelihood of the Evolution theory being the "correct theory," therefore Balanced and "relatively equally weighted" arguments would not be a goal in such an article. At least that is my understanding of when "balanced arguments" should be the goal, and should not be the goal, in an article. One passer by ( talk) 16:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
It never happens that "reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence." TFD ( talk) 04:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
An assertion seems to have been made that when there is a "relatively equal prominence" amongst sources, that editors should not be asked to try to write such that neither side is favored, because writing like that is "too hard of a stance." Yes, it is always more difficult to write so that neither side is favored, but just because such writing is "harder" does that mean we should not at least officially aim for this goal?
@ Rhododendrites: if I may not be understanding your argument correctly, please clarify what you meant by saying that asking editors in articles where "balance" is asked for, to write without favoring either side is "too hard of a stance?" One passer by ( talk) 15:20, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I didn't have any specific article in mind when I proposed here that "balanced articles should not be weighted to favor either side." I merely felt that in general, Wikipedia editors writing on controversial topics where there are two contending viewpoints being discussed, both with arguably relatively equal prominence, then editors should be encouraged to describe both sides without weighting for or against either side. Here is a recent example: The WP article on Stephen Miller describes him as "far-right" in the article lead. Miller himself describes himself instead as a "nationalist" and not as a "far-right" person. I proposed on that article's talk page that both voices could be fairly described, both Miller's self-description, and the NYTimes' description, and was shot down.
It seems to me that Wikipedia is always improved and enhanced when it is not trying to make itself out to be the arbiter and authority of who is right and who is wrong in cases of unsettled political controversies. And no, I have not edited the Stephen Miller article itself, and have no intention to do so. I only proposed this on that article's talk page to see what the reaction might be. I'm merely concerned with the tendency when dealing with clearly unsettled topics, of editors to use "The Voice of Wikipedia" to do what seems to me to be furthering only one view. One passer by ( talk) 07:06, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
The nuts and bolts of the policy are not very usable. In a dispute, how is one going to determine the amount of coverage in sources? Also in many areas, the "sources" have instead become participants / advocates. One useful way to go would be to emphasize that the objective of every line and every paragraph should be to inform. Also getting degree of wp:relevance into in inclusion/exclusion equation would help. When writing about topic "A", other participant's opinions and talking points about topic "A" are one step removed in relevance and because of that should need to meet a higher standard to get included. North8000 ( talk) 11:16, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Here is a simple slight rewording to the Balance section that might do something like what North8000 suggested:
This simple rewording might give this section applicability to the Stephen Miller article, as well as other similar situations, thus making the balance section more intelligible and usable. Otherwise it confuses me as to how anything that is supposedly "balanced" could also be weighted towards one side or another? One passer by ( talk) 15:02, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Something that I've talked to before that is coming up here again is that it is hard to try to determine an appropriately neutral angle that we should write an encyclopedic article while a controversial topic is still ongoing and controversial; we are far too close to the event, and there are likely few sources giving the necessary hindsight to understand how to accurately weight the topic w.r.t. to UNDUE. It is one thing to talk about Flat Earthers ; we have centuries of data from objective scientific study and direct observation to be able to say this is is a fringe theory, so we can readily determine what its appropriate weight should be when talking about the nature of Earth (read: none). However, when we talk about a current person in a spotlight (the example highlighted above), that's a bit different. There's no expert sources looking back here, but instead speaking to the now, and there are elements of a dependent media that has made it clear it does not like the far right that brings into question of their bias on the matter. We can't properly apply UNDUE at this point to determine what viewpoints have appropriate weight. That doesn't mean UNDUE can't apply, but we have to be careful presuming the loudest side is "right". There are a number of BLP related issues beyond this scope that also come into play.
Basically this page should reflect that UNDUE should not be so intensely followed as some what it to be when we are talking a current controversy that lacks the necessary long-term expert review to resolve. If we're still in it, we should be more careful to at least outline before sides before delving into excessive coverage of the stance of the heavily-weighted side from RSes. We should also be aware, per RECENTISM, that we shouldn't try to load up on the opinions from the heavily-weighted side just because it has the most representation in the RSes. Once time has passed and this may take years, we can then look back and see how to be determine the balance as deemed by expert RSes and UNDUE at that point. -- Masem ( t) 16:27, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
I strongly support Masem's and One passer by's analysis and points, even though you are talking about two different things. I think One passer by hit on the Rosetta stone. Who says we should be making a "balanced opinion piece" out of an ENCYCLOPEDIA article? North8000 ( talk) 17:46, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
The relative prominence of each viewpoint among Wikipedia editors or the general public is not relevant and should not be considered.
...articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects.Who determines what is or isn't the minority view, and according to whose perspective do we determine what comprises a minority or widespread view? Such interpretations require sound editorial judgment, see WP:CIR, especially when it involves topics relating to race, religion, gender, ideologies, and various other societal/cultural aspects. WP should not be making such determinations in the first place which brings us back to the systematic review process.
means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic.Atsme 📞 📧 20:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@
Wario-Man,
Ntrikha, and
Corriebertus: and other Wikipedians:
Working on Wikipedia can be interesting, but it can at times also be tiresome or annoying, when we come across deliberate or inadvertent 'mistakes' or 'wrong edits' of colleagues. In such situations, we can minimize annoyances for everyone and keep the disputes as short as possible by being clear and precise in our edit summaries and discussions. (This holds for me too; I'm always glad if others point out to me that my language wasn't as clear as I had supposed it to be.)
Here I'd like to comment on the term 'pov' which I often see used incorrectly, and I'll illustrate that with an edit summary of our well-respected colleague Wario-Man, whom I've asked why he used edit summary "Removed pov (…)" recently on page Afghanistan in April 2018 – not to blame Wario-Man: he's possibly repeating a mistake (many) others before him have made. The words he removed then from that article were: "and Hindi", in section Afghanistan#Etymology, which words asserted that "-stan" means "place of" in Hindi.
From his answer (2April2018) I gather that he had five reasons to remove (the statement expressed in) those words: that statement to his opinion was:
Ad 1 and 2.) Those first two reasons: 'incorrect' and 'unsourced' – which I believe both have nothing to do with 'pov' (see point 5) – together would constitute a very good reason to act, in one of two ways, at choice for the editor: (a) If the presumedly wrong assertion seems not gravely harming the article, one might first adhere the template citation needed to it and come back later to remove the (wrong) assertion all together; (b) If you feel the wrong assertion to be seriously misleading the readers you can remove it immediately. But then I'd recommend editors to clearly state those two motives in the edit summary. For example: "this is untrue, and it is unsourced", or: "this seems untrue and it is unsourced". That is clear, and gives the opposing editor a fair chance to come up with a source and prove you wrong.
Ad 3.) Irrelevance can in general be a very good reason to remove text, but in this case the reason 'irrelevant' seems not applicable. If I'd write an abstract of the Pope's speech of last Eastern Sunday in section Afgh#Etymology it would be irrelevant there (= off-topic, not concerning the issue of that section). But statements concerning the background of '-stan' are very relevant in that section (and if they are untrue they are relevantly misleading readers).
Ad 4.) 'Personal opinion' (of a previous editor) can never be a ground for reverting an edit.
First of all: we can't know what another editor has been thinking, believing, feeling, suspecting or presuming a year ago, unless he tells us.
Secondly: it is very likely, that 99% of all edits reflect facts that the editor at that time (to his 'opinion') considered to be correct (the other 1% are probably what we'd call
vandalism). But we wouldn't want to remove those 99% of all edits, simply because the editors who made them believed they were writing a true fact, do we? We remove edits because they seem wrong (see under point 1), not because someone considered them right.
Ad 5.) For "pov", in the given example Wario-Man referred to policy page Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (NPOV). That page as I understand deals purely with fair, balanced and proportionate representation of different (conflicting) significant views that exist on a topic, in Wikipedia articles. An assertion like '-stan meaning place of in Hindi' in article 'Afghanistan', unsourced, untrue according to Wario-Man, therefore (in his eyes) not significant for Wikipedia, I don't see how that would have any relation to any rule or advise expressed on policy page WP:NPOV. -- Corriebertus ( talk) 15:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The following sentence that I rewrote is difficult to comprehend in my opinion and needs a fresh approach: "The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased...." One suggestion to make the phrasing slightly less opaque would be to use hyphens: "The bias-in-sources argument...." However, that phrase is awkward any way you slice it. Stylistically, the repetition of "biased" at the end and beginning of consecutive sentences is needlessly ungraceful. The meaning of the phrase "sources that dispute the POV" is unclear. An article should have no POV to be disputed. Perhaps the phrase means that biased sources can dispute each other. But the wording does not make this clear. My suggestion for a simpler and readily comprehensible sentence would be:
"Some editors argue that biased sources should be excluded in order to maintain the neutral POV of an article."
DonFB ( talk) 07:23, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
That sentence reveals a common and serious misunderstanding of the policy:
"Some editors argue that biased sources should be excluded in order to maintain the neutral POV of an article."
NPOV policy expressly allows the use of biased sources in articles. NPOV refers to editorial conduct, and not so much to sources or content. That sentence seems to be based on the false idea that content must be "neutral". That's BS. Our job, per Jimbo, is to document the sum total of human knowledge, and that includes irrefutable facts, theories, allegations, conspiracy theories, lies, fringe ideas, rumors, etc. We document all of it if it's reported in RS. If it's only reported in unreliable sources, it may not get any mention.
That's why understanding sourcing, knowing what sources are reliable for some purposes, and how to vet sources, is fundamental to almost everything at Wikipedia. It all starts there. NPOV and most other policies come after that. A failure to understand this leads to many problems.
It is editors who must be neutral in their documentation of biased sources. They must preserve that bias and not get in the way. Tell it like it is, in the source, and not how you'd like it to be. I've written a whole essay about this: NPOV means neutral editors, not neutral content. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 02:53, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
DonFB - your suggestion: "Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used, because they introduce POV to an article."
is good - to the point...and it's certainly true that biased sources introduce POV to an article which is why opposing views should also be included. I support your rewording. Now then, you can stop reading at this point if you'd like, but I think the confusion stems much deeper and a bit more clarity is needed in the policy.
NPOV is unequivocally clear that (my strikes for needed grammar corrections): "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies, or guidelines, nor or by editor consensus. While it all sounds good, it's hard to determine how it applies and what it means. If we take it at face value, what are the procedures for identifying an attempt by editor consensus to supersede the policy, and what steps should be taken if/when a challenge arises?
The other glaring issue relates to Due and undue weight, particularly:
Ensure that the reporting of different views on a subject adequately reflects the relative levels of support for those views, and that it does not give a false impression of parity, or give undue weight to a particular view.
...in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources.[3] Giving due weight and avoiding giving undue weight means that articles should not give minority views or aspects as much of or as detailed a description as more widely held views or widely supported aspects. The flat earth theory is used as the example.
That simply doesn't work as it was originally intended, particularly as it relates to political articles because of the 21st Century changes to our news delivery system. We have transitioned from printed news based on journalistic objectivity to internet news based on journalistic opinion and baitclick revenue. It appears to me Balancing aspects is far more appropriate for political articles than UNDUE/DUE. Unfortunately, some of the arguments we encounter have not kept up with the times. Considering NPOV cannot be superseded by editor consensus, the question is...how do we enforce that part of the policy? In retrospect, WP's (Nupedia's) earliest
policies emphasized lack of bias which used the following test: This question is a good (albeit not infallible) test of a lack of bias: "On every issue about which there might be even minor dispute among experts on this subject, is it very difficult or impossible for the reader to determine what the view is to which the author adheres? This requires that, for each controversial view discussed, the author of an article (at a bare minimum) mention various opposing views that are taken seriously by any significant minority of experts (or concerned parties) on the subject.
What a wonderfully utopian expectation...and logical fallacy. So how do we enforce NPOV when editor consensus supersedes it or when POV pushers outnumber their opponents in either local or RfC consensus surveys?
Atsme
📞
📧 18:56, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
Hat inappropriate attack in the middle of an unrelated discussion.---v/r - T P 18:12, 30 April 2018 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
I don't even remember anymore what brought me here to look at the "Bias in sources" section, but when I read the 2nd (misbegotten) sentence, I felt compelled to make an improvement. The sentence is an example of collaborative editing gone wrong--overwritten, muddled and confusing. My purpose here has not been to debate Due and Balance and POV, etc. I support the meaning of the section, namely: it's not prohibited to use biased sources. Absent objections, I will again replace the 2nd sentence, this time with my most recent suggested wording, which is: "Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used, because they introduce POV to an article." I will add the word "However," to the beginning of the next sentence. DonFB ( talk) 00:53, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
??? Stickee, I'm a bit surprised you reverted me. I had an agreement above with DonFB (search for "fair enough" above), and Flyer22 Reborn didn't exclude the idea, even though they preferred the latter location.
I had already explained above why the latter location is simply wrong, not just an acceptable alternative location.
It makes a substantive difference by making a wrong idea seem okay. It's not okay for editors to see a POV as "improper POV" when they edit. That judgment is made in the context of providing the proper weight to various POV. It is thus the weight of RS which makes the judgment, not editors. That way editors with opposing POV must bow to the primacy of the sources, not to the dictates of a majority of editors who hold one POV.
If editors initially make that judgment, they are not being neutral, but using their own POV (and editors will have opposing POV, so the results of this practice will be chaos) to censor or favor content they like or don't like.
No, they must faithfully document the biased POV in a source. Let due weight considerations sort out exactly where and how much of each POV is included, but not whether it's included at all. -- BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 04:15, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
Here's a comparison of the current content with the older version (the strike out is only so we can focus on the part that's changing, not because it will actually be deleted):
Original: The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
[1]
Current: Some editors argue that biased sources should not be used because they introduce improper POV to an article. However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
[2]
I think the original is better than the new propostion, but I admit it's rather muddled wording, which I assume is the reason for the attempt to improve it, and improvement is always welcome. My analysis of the original says that we're trying to rebut an improper attempt by editors to exclude sources whose bias they don't like, while they claim that the biased source they do like is actually neutral (or something like that). If we're going to continue down this path of changing the original, let me propose a different wording:
Original: The bias in sources argument is one way to present a POV as neutral by excluding sources that dispute the POV as biased. Biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
Proposed: An improper argument against using biased sources is sometimes made by editors in an effort to exclude sources whose bias they do not like. However, biased sources are not inherently disallowed based on bias alone,
BullRangifer ( talk) PingMe 14:54, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
This type of statement comes up a lot in sources for a certain class of articles. I was wondering what others here thought about this.
The type of statements that the header encompasses are prescriptive statements cached version of this link (a type of normative statement which indicates an obligation with words like "should", "ought to" or "must"). Normative statements are opinions according to opinion#Epistemology and [3], among other references. I noticed that WP:ASSERT gives examples of facts and opinions as uncontested and seriously contested assertions, but examples are not an exhaustive list; so, I was wondering if statements like this are considered an opinion or a fact in relation to WP:WikiVoice. In other words, do statements like this constitute a fact or an opinion in relation to WP:WikiVoice? Seppi333 ( Insert 2¢) 01:15, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
I made this set of edits, about the below, and then self-reverted. I think these edits express the living consensus of the editing community, that simply has not been captured in this document.
This policy, pretty much since it was created, has been focused on real world disputes that get carried into WP - for example, that original text focused on "capitalism" vs "anti-capitalism" (to roughly summarize it). The current policy mentions the evolution/creationism dispute.
That is all good, but...
I work a lot on advocacy issues in WP. What I find very often, is somebody promoting (less commonly, denigrating) someone, something, or some idea, by generating big swaths of UNDUE content, sourced to primary, often SPS, sources. That is an issue with regard to this policy.
Two examples of this would be:
Neither of those are in the context of a dispute, mind you. It is just about somebody promoting something or someone or some idea. Using a bunch of SPS or primary sources creates content that fails NPOV, since by definition what is going on there is
Neither of those is inherently about real world disputes, and this policy as written fails to deal with these issues, which are not uncommon.
My work on this led me to think about it, and to write this little essay on my userpage about relying mostly on independent, secondary sources.
In the current policy, there is exactly one line about this, in
WP:BALANCE. It says Neutrality assigns
weight to viewpoints in proportion to their prominence. However, when reputable sources contradict one another and are relatively equal in prominence, describe both points of view and work for balance. This involves describing the opposing views clearly, drawing on secondary or tertiary sources that describe the disagreement from a disinterested viewpoint.
. Do you see how this is focused on disputes?
The section on WP:UNDUE is also focused on disputes, and expresses our consensus on how to deal with disputes pretty well.
But it doesn't deal with UNDUE in the sense of something vs nothing or a lot vs a little -- of "blown up out of SPS and primary sources to create content where there are few to no independent, secondary sources about it".
I ~think~ the stuff in my edits expresses the living consensus of the community. Am interested to see how others view these proposed changes. Jytdog ( talk) 17:46, 13 May 2018 (UTC)
the body of reliable, published material on the subject.leaves for example non-independent sources on the table as part of the "body" and those really should not come into play. Jytdog ( talk) 01:42, 14 May 2018 (UTC)
"We" have had an argument over at /info/en/?search=Ohio_gubernatorial_election,_2018 . I have tried to add a green party candidate which came upon great resistance after her getting picture into the infobox. Undue focus on the conventional parties perpetuates polarity. Dael4 ( talk) 04:40, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
This process begins by finding reasonably recent, high quality, independent, secondary reliable sources, and studying them, to learn how the experts in the given field define and describe the subject, and summarizing what those sources say. Sources are authoritative, not editors.
Is it even possible at all? No human being alive is unbiased about anything at all, social psychology research seems to have demonstrated this fairly rigorously. Even my view point on this very comment is biased, whether I intend that to be the case or not. No matter how hard I might try, or you might try, at the end of the day every single comment made by every single one of us is going to contain an immeasurable amount of bias. What's the point in trying to mitigate it? Seems like a futile endeavor. I suspect such a policy will more likely be used as a flimsy justification for censoring some viewpoints over others. Doesn't sound like a good idea if a healthy and open community is to be fostered. Just my biased two cents, of course, food for thought, perhaps. Perhaps not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 122.61.182.221 ( talk • contribs) 11:12, 1 June 2018 (UTC)
"We" have had an argument over at /info/en/?search=Ohio_gubernatorial_election,_2018 . I have tried to add a green party candidate which came upon great resistance after her getting picture into the infobox. Undue focus on the conventional parties perpetuates polarity. Dael4 ( talk) 04:42, 3 June 2018 (UTC)
Sucks to see this go unaddressed. Encourage fellow wikipedians to pick up the mighty pen (keyboard) and fight against unjustified censorship on Wikipedia. CanisLupisArctus ( talk) 01:12, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Per an ongoing dispute on Talk:Directive on Copyright in the Digital Single Market, is there any requirement or recommendation that, per NPOV, facts and opinions related to an article subject must be separated or insulated from each other in-text? ViperSnake151 Talk 21:56, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
Please see Talk:Milwaukee Bucks#RfC for team colors
This is really beyond the Milwaukee Bucks or even sports in particular, and relevant to coverage of organizations and their
house styles generally. This touches on all of:
WP:NPOV,
WP:NOT#INDISCRIMINATE,
WP:NOR,
MOS:CAPS, and
MOS:TM, in various aspects (see the more detailed discussion below the !vote section).
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ 😼 19:21, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
TWO FALSEHOODS DON'T MAKE A RIGHT - SO TO SPEAK. TERM INFLATION (LOADING AND FRAMING) IS JUST FALSEHOOD
I specialize in Testimony (particularly scientific testimony), and so I'm sensitive to misrepresentation by term inflation (Loading and Framing).
Misrepresentation: 1-Forgery(crime), 2-Counterfeit(Crime), 3-Fraud(crime), 4-Hoax(Attention Seeking or Practical Joke), 5-Fictionalism(pseudoscience, pseudorationalism, supernatural) 6-Propaganda(Loading, Framing, Obscuring), 7-Fiction(Entertaining Inflation or 'Gossip')
- A Forgery must misrepresent authorship of for the purpose of profiting from the premium in an exchange due to that authorship.
- A Counterfeit must misrepresent it's identity (trademark, weight and measure) for the purpose of obtaining a premium on its exchange.
- A Fraud must misrepresent information by word, act or implication for the purpose of profiting from an exchange.
- A Hoax must create physical misrepresentation by suggestion for the purpose of gathering attention (marketing), providing entertainment, or humor (practical joke).
- A Fictionalism must make use of pseudoscience (failure of due diligence) or magic, idealism or sophistry, and/or the supernatural or occult.
- Propaganda must provide information of a biased or misleading nature, to promote or publicize a political objective.
- A Deceit ("deceit or gossip") must used to load, frame, suggest, or obscure causality for the purpose of avoiding or creating harm.
- A Fiction must only entertain by coloring the information without necessarily engaging in deception.
For example:
- Michelangelo began his sculpting career by misrepresenting his early marble sculpture, Sleeping Eros as a Roman original so he could sell it at a premium - first by burying it and then digging up and 'discovering' - That was a Forgery.
- Alves Dos Reis forged a contract from the Banco de Portugal so that he could acquire banknotes from official printers – meaning his notes were identical to the state's. That was a Forgery followed by Counterfeiting.
- Feed the Children and Bernie Madoff. People donated money to this religious organization with the intention of helping starving children, but it was privatized. People gave money to Bernie Madoff to invest but he create created the biggest pyramid scheme in history. These are famous frauds but not counterfeiting, or Forgery or Hoaxes.
- The Voynich Manuscript was produced (as far as we know) as a Hoax or a Fraud - but not propaganda or fiction.
- The Protocols of Zion are clearly a Hoax, and clearly Propaganda - and the most currently famous.
- The vast body of mathematics is constructed upon mathematical idealism (platonism) in which some mathematical reality exists. This is a bad habit held over from antiquity, whereas all of mathematics (measurement by positional names) consists of correspondence and a small number of rudimentary operations. That a Fictionalism.
- The founding books of the three abrahamic religions are both propaganda and fictions - and the most universal.
- Crichton's Eaters of the Dead is a fictional account attributed to Ibn Fadlan - it is a fiction(entertainment), but not propaganda, hoax, or fraud.
- History and Record: out of necessity, histories and records are constructed by framing the complex so that it is comprehensible.
Cheers — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:188:4100:1304:81A5:A7AD:18E3:DA3D ( talk) 16:41, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia_talk:Biographies_of_living_persons#The_intersection_of_BLPSPS_and_PSCI Jytdog ( talk) 19:00, 28 July 2018 (UTC)
"Wikipedia articles on history and religion draw from a religion's sacred texts as well as from modern archaeological, historical, and scientific sources." - ONLY articles on religion should be drawn from sacred texts. For articles on history, sacred texts should either not be considered, or be included as historical sources with suitable justification for its inclusion as such a source. SecC ( talk) 17:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
"Some adherents of a religion might object to a critical historical treatment of their own faith because in their view such analysis discriminates against their religious beliefs." - If this is the case, it should be ignored. These adherents are absolutely incorrect as they have no reason to believe that such treatment "discriminates" against their religious beliefs. A historical treatment by definition involves no bias.
Fair enough. My second point is not addressed, however. SecC ( talk) 17:52, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Input is appreciated here - Please see this discussion on how NPOV affects the selection of 10 album ratings in an album ratings box for critical reception sections, considering the overall reception of an album (negative, mixed or positive). Lapadite ( talk) 06:37, 12 September 2018 (UTC)
A new RfC has started that concerns if an old sentence at WP:NPOV_dispute accurately reflects NPOV policy, please see Wikipedia talk:NPOV dispute#RfC: POV Pushing On Talk Pages - Obsidi ( talk) 14:48, 23 October 2018 (UTC)
Things like:
- Israel vs Palestine conflict - River Plate vs Boca rivalry - George Bush vs Al Gore debate
etc..
which can be found on titles, lists, rankings and infoboxes I would propose suggesting alphabetical order or oldness (when appliable) as an arbitrary principle in the NPOV policy
— Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.57.22.44 ( talk) 23:30, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
Due to NPOV editors, editing wikipedia, Nathuram Godse is a terrorist and Ajmal Kasab is a militant, Hafiz Muhammad Saeed is a militant, Zakiur Rehman Lakhvi] is a leader. This is the reason I left Wikipedia. Yakub Memon is Indian citizen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Alpinesundra ( talk • contribs) 12:30, 21 February 2019 (UTC)