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Imo, the undue weight section makes a laudable effort, but only in one direction. I think the concept works both ways and the section should be slightly amended to also warn against censorship in articles. I.e., information that has been covered by reliable sources should be given DUE weight, according to its significance within the entirety of the topic. Otherwise, as is frequently the case, some do game the policy by claiming UNDUE whenever someone tries to improve the completeness and thereby overall accuracy of an article. User: Dorftrottel 12:23, February 19, 200 8
There is no indication "how much is due". From the phrase "not as much as" in the UNDUE policy section, it follows that whatever is due must be less than 50%. I propose to add the following to the section:
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 15:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC) |
What determines a specialist? How does one measure the general population? Since most of the population doesn't know what the capital of Brunei is, do we say that Brunei doesn't have a known capital? Etc. etc. etc. ScienceApologist ( talk) 22:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
moved section up from more below to avoid confusion, Xiutwel, 08:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I took out the new content in the undue weight section. I'd rather not have editors who are involved in undue weight debates and minority views go and start changing relevant policy without discussion first. Being bold is a good thing but sometimes it can go too far. I realize some modifications were made to that section, but I'd still prefer changes to come from the ground up via discussion. Thanks. RxS ( talk) 16:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see what is unclear about the policy as it stands. Why does it need to be changed? The case does not seem to have been made. Dlabtot ( talk) 12:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure about what we have written for Morally offensive views:
Morally offensive views
What about views that are morally offensive to most Westerners, such as racism, sexism, and Holocaust denial, that some people actually hold? Surely we are not to be neutral about them?
We report views that have been published by reliable sources. We do not report views that are held by tiny minorities, or views that reliable sources do not write about. Beyond that, we make no judgements. No view is omitted because someone might see it as prejudiced; if it is omitted from Wikipedia, it is because reliable sources have omitted it.
What I think:
I don't know if other people could help with that...
Thanks, Drum guy ( talk) 14:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I removed the templates that are accumulating at the top of the page? They are unnecessary instruction creep. Bensaccount ( talk) 22:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
If someone has an NPOV temp on their user talk page, we're not going to please them no matter what we do. If we can communicate, just a tiny bit, we're a little further ahead. If you quickly scan those text boxes you know that a) NPOV is a policy, b) we're serious about it, and c) NPOV means x. Maybe you'll stop whatever it is you're doing without a block, which means there's an incrementally larger chance you'll stick around and contribute effectively. The greater good of the project is worth a little clutter. Darkspots ( talk) 13:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. The "you" in my post above is not you, Bensaccount. The "you" is a theoretical new user who has a {{Uw-npov1}} template on their user talk page. You misread my post--why in the world would I threaten you with a block? You and I are both longtime editors, and I've never thought differently.
We're talking about the same two templates. I'm talking about my impression of how the page would look to an impatient new user who made some edits that were considered tendentious and got an NPOV template slapped on their user talk page. They hit the link to this page, and look at it for the first time. My post above describes what they would see in a quick scan of the page. Perhaps they would then stop what they were doing because they realize that we have policy that covers this and we're serious about that policy. If they don't stop, they'll get blocked, and we almost certainly lose that contributor.
My above post is a little unclear, and I apologize for being unclear. But my arguments, I think, make a lot more sense than you give them credit for. I'm talking about a certain kind of user that this page needs to communicate with, and I think these text boxes could help to reach that kind of user. Every post I've made above describes that user in greater detail. My impression of your responses to me above is that you feel that impatient, tendentious new users can either read unvarnished plain text or lump it. I think that we need to try to reach these people, to do something to communicate with them, and that these text boxes are a good way to get across the points that need to be made to them. Darkspots ( talk) 17:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I protest this "policy" and don't think popularity is a factor of truth. Here's my suggestion for an alternative: Wikipedia:Balance Your Perspectives. To any admins, if the page is to be deleted for not being official, I understand, if it has been, see User:IdLoveOne/Balance Your Perspectives. IdLoveOne ( talk) 03:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I have had additions I have made to articles removed that were verifiable and annotated clearly because editors, who had to make it clear they are part of Wikipedia's elite, did not agree with what I said. One addition, to a politician's page, was made "OK" through a lot of modification, was later moved to a separate page about a certain election, and later removed. You can threaten to banish me after one warning, you can stick your nose up in the air, you can demand politeness, but the TRUTH is that there are editors who seem to be highly placed who are damned hypocrites who have their own political adgenda that dictates what is allowable on Wiki, and I think it stinks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.198.58 ( talk) 05:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the rush to introduce changes to a core policy, with discussions being templated closed after just a few days. WP:UNDUE is just fine and perfectly clear as it is. It already provides a sensible, workable guideline for determining what constitutes a significant view and what constitutes undue weight. It shouldn't be changed just because some folks aren't winning their battles. Dlabtot ( talk) 12:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. On such pages the minority view may be spelled out in great detail, and appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint can be shown in a linked article devoted to majority views of the minority topic.
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, the article must include appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint showing the majority view of each topic covered in the article, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.
As I review past disputes on this topic, it strikes me that we have to do a better job of describing NPOV and documenting NPOV, handling difficult cases that "fall between the cracks" like what to do with FRINGE topics which have not been addressed by the mainstream in
WP:RS since they are so obscure, giving examples and training people in NPOV. Part of the problem is that we just are too obscure and confusing when we describe NPOV. The information is spread over too many pages and too confusing. I would like to see an FAQ and other tools to help people understand NPOV. For example, creating an FAQ on the
evolution talk page helped tremendously. I would like to see two versions; a succinct version with just short one sentence summary answers, and a longer set of FAQ answers.
Even if we do a better job of describing NPOV, we will always have some who are frantic to misinterpret NPOV or reinterpret NPOV. We will never change these. What we will do, is make it far easier for the average editor to get up to speed very fast on NPOV to slam these characters who want to misinterpret NPOV for their own purposes. -- Filll ( talk) 19:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Xiutwel: On second thought, do you have an example of what you would like to change? Anthon01 ( talk) 02:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
What happens when the majority view is out of sync with the evidence? When science says one thing but the public believe another wouldn't that make science the fringe view and thus mean that the entry should be weighed towards the popular opinion?
For example, if it could be demonstrated that 90% of the population believed that folk remedy XYZ worked, but 1 scientist does an experiment that said that proves that it didn't. Would the fringe be the uneducated masses or the educated scientist, and how would you weigh it? - perfectblue ( talk) 17:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The "Dispute Resolution" page suggests asking questions on policy talk pages for deeper insights on them; so hello. I'm trying to understand when the "exceptions" for WP:UNDUE apply. Because the group I belong to is in a "tiny-minority", it is contended by editors from the mainstream Baha'is that the policy of undue weight exempts our views from being stated on the Baha'i divisions page; a page which outlines the history of division in the Faith. The discussions I've read here mainly have covered scientific views. My concern is religious in nature.
It has been contended on the talk page that the only appropriate place for criticisms of the mainstream group is on main article pages devoted to that particular group in the minority. I've contended that the policy states ""Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented *except* in articles devoted to those views". My question is what dictates exactly what is an "article devoted to those views"? Am I confused to think that an article that summarizes the history of dissent in the Faith is "devoted to those views"? The opposing contention is "This article is about Baha'i divisions, not Remeyite postions on Baha'i divisions. The majority position is the Baha'i position. As such your opinions are indeed tiny-minority ones — even here. Therefore, your insisting that it be "established or even eluded that anyone believed the UHJ was 'not elected per Shoghi Effendi's instructions'" be included is inappropriate. You've already got pages to make your own points." I wasn't ever trying to give and "extended treatment" to our view, but rather include one sentence that sums it up. They contend that the article is about the "majorities view" on the matter. So doesn't that mean its an "article devoted to those views"? Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 07:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Part of this depends on just how "tiny" your particular group is. Has it received sufficient coverage to warrant an article of its own? If so, its own article is actually the place that the section means as being "devoted to those views," and it would be quite appropriate to describe everything about them there. On a broader page such as this one, it depends. The article you're talking about isn't actually specifically about listing all cases of dissent, but rather the major divisions. However, if your particular case is notable enough, you should be able to show some reliable third-party sources commenting on it. This may be enough to warrant just a sentence or two. -- Infophile (Talk) (Contribs) 17:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
How should you play it when you have a topic where the primary point of notability comes from sources that express one side of an argument but which are usually considered unreliable, while the other side of the argument comes from reliable sources but is not in itself notable enough to carry an entry, or even to justify its existence?
For example. On one side somebody claims to see a monster in the local lake. It generates masses of wild and spurious claims (sufficient to make it notable) all saying that the creature is real and that there is evidence for its existence and generating masses of potential content. On the other side there is a 1/2 page word entry in a peer reviewed journal explaining that the monster was something perfectly explainable, and that the evidence isn't. Not enough to make the entry notable. How do we weight it? Do you crop the first side down to give the second side the weight of the entry, do you give them equal billing, or do you do you say that because the first side has the weight of notability it should have the weight of the entry?
perfectblue ( talk) 17:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Any thoughts on removing the "History of NPOV" section" (perhaps by moving it to the talk page)? It adds quite a bit of text without adding any guidance regarding NPOV. Moreover, I would expect that the specific history of the principle and the policy are of interest to relatively few people... Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. It would be very hard to alter the basic principle of neutrality without altering the nature of wikipedia.
This much is true. However, foundation issues *are* negotiable. Have been negotiated, are occasionally negotiated, still need to be negotiated today.
Hey, it's on meta, a foundation wiki. It's determined by consensus!
The consequences of such negotiation can be rather large, so it's potentially very hard to make headway... so I guess lots of people have never tried.
But saying that they're non-negotiable is silly. If you want to make them non-negotiable, please negotiate that option on meta first. Oh, and good luck with that.
Contradiction with foundation issues therefore removed.
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 11:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(undent) My preferred wording:
“ | Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. It would be very hard to alter the basic principle of neutrality without altering the nature of Wikipedia. | ” |
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 14:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
According to Jimbo Wales, "NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable". [1]
The link to the mailing list message had become incorrect, by 2006 the reference (in a footnote by then) read:
NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable" in statement by Jimbo Wales in November 2003 and reconfirmed by Jimbo Wales in April 2006 in the context of lawsuits.
The first of the two included links in this version is still OK, the second is out of order but shouldn't be too hard to locate. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Note that currently the third paragraph of the NPOV policy page also has "[...] This is non-negotiable [...]", no longer needing Jimbo to support the inclusion of this statement.
Whatever the statement at m:Foundation issues (which includes statements w.r.t. to all Wikimedia projects), for en:Wikipedia the formulation has continued to be ... "non-negotiable" ... since November 2003, as far as I can remember without interruption. For the Wikimedia projects in general it became "essentially considered to be beyond debate" some time later, covering some other principles too. For English Wikipedia we kept "non-negotiable" for WP:NPOV at the time, and after, until today.
Anyway, if you want to negotiate about it, do so with the Wikimedia Foundation, it *is* a Foundation issue now. I don't see any major issues caused by non-negotiability on this page. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 15:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(post-ec) Now having read the 2006-april statement, this seems to refer to dealings with the outside world, where this is a useful position. In other news, it might be interesting to draw Jimbo into this debate (by which I mean actual debate, not drive-by posting ^^;;) but I'm not sure he has much time -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 15:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(ec) @Blackfalcon: Well, I figure that if you can't convince people that they need to remain neutral or follow other best practices of their own accord, they're going to be a net time sink and a negative contributor to the encyclopedia anyway. (As they will constantly need to be watched, thus using up valuable time of other volunteers.)
In that situation, the only benefit of having a hard rule is that you get to drive the bad apples away a little faster. On the other hand, you'll also end up driving away people who are redeemable (because no one bothers to redeem them).
So having a soft rule allows you to recruit more good editors. At the same time it also gives you a decent rationale to actually get rid of the bad editors ("we really tried, but they're just not listening").
Cynically: When it comes to The Exchange Of Diffs (tm) in many dispute resolution processes, you'll end up looking squeaky clean, while the "bad guys" look really bad indeed. Getting them banned is so much easier then. O:-)
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 18:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
In reply to a bit further up, why soft rules allow for less wiki-lawyering? Well, that's an interesting one. You're still going by intuition there. ;-)
Here's a general case:
If you're trying to find a way around a rule, and you have to negotiate about the exact interpretation of a rule anyway, there's only so far you can go while still taking into account the other party (or parties). And once you've agreed on what to do, you need to stick to the agreement. Lawyering your way out of a good faith agreement is generally "Not Done". Also you know *exactly* who you will be offending, and social pressure will keep you in line. Forget loopholes. Other people you've talked with will know exactly what you're up to and tell you off. "No, we really agreed to this behaviour... stick with the program". You use soft rules for community standards and for meatball:SoftSecurity, when you would like people to cooperate.
Conversely, a hard rule is set by some anonymous entity far removed from the trenches. It is triggered in an exact set of circumstances. If you know the exact trigger, you can act right up to the line and not get into trouble... except if you sneeze, in which case you're suddenly banned for a week. ;-) If there's a loophole, you can sneak through. Very few people will care if you sneak through a loophole, because (practically) no one has any vested interest in your good behavior (at best they have a vested interest in you Not Being There At All :-P). You typically only use hard rules for meatball:HardSecurity, when you have already given up on people.
In general, if you have to start using hard rules, you're probably better off just banning people outright (which is a basic expression of hard security).
So to summarize: Soft rules are for keeping people working together, hard rules are for keeping people out.
Now, what is NPOV for?
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 20:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
In the
peer review of the
folk metal article I've worked on, someone has expressed strong objection to the use of quotes that precede some of the sections in the article. Each of the quotes are from a member of a band that is subsequently discussed at length in the paragraph that immediately follows the quote. The significance of each band to the genre of folk metal is explained in that ensuing discussion. When I added those quotes, I was really just trying to make the article look more attractive. None of the quotes except for the last one is really important and they can all be discarded without effecting the substantive quality of the article. I do not have a problem with doing that if it should be done but I'm curious to know whether the objection being made has any merit. The objection rests on the notion that the quotes "places special emphasis on the sources being quoted" and "elevates a particular source's views and gives in implicit value above any other views, and is thus inherently un-neutral." I do not quite understand however how the use of any of these quotes is contrary to wikipedia's policy on having a neutral point of view. There's nothing controversial about folk metal nor is there anything controversial about anything mentioned in the quotes or the person being quoted. The quotes are inoffensive remarks that primarily serve as mere eye candy. I can understand it if an objection is made because the quotes are mere eye-candy but not this argument that they are inherently un-neutral.
I also note that other articles on wikipedia also contain quotes in a manner that I believe is similar to that found in the folk metal article. The
Battle of Greece opens with a quote from Mussolini and there's no explanation as to why his viewpoint should be prominently quoted at the opening instead of the viewpoint of some other individual like Hitler or Metaxas. The article on
U2 also contains quotes very prominently by the band members as well as other sources like Brian Eno, The Rolling Stones and an author named Caroline van oosten de Boer. No explanation is provided as to why the (positive) viewpoints of U2 from these sources should be quoted at length. None of the quotes I used in the folk metal article give that kind of positive spin in my view. They are just tantalising brief comments to open a section more attractively. Both the Battle of Greece and U2 were promoted to featured article status with all those quotes which indicate to me that there's nothing wrong or inherentely un-neutral about using quotes in such a manner. I would like to hear what others think though so please give me some feedback. Cheers. --
Bardin (
talk) 11:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Although NPOV is often an editor's all-purpose weapon of choice, it doesn't actually apply here because this is not a question of conflicting perspectives on a topic. It is a question of opinions preceding facts. I would refer you to facts precede opinions. Bensaccount ( talk) 16:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it endorses nor discourages viewpoints. Debates within topics are described, represented and characterized, writing sympathetically about each side; but they are not engaged in. ( diff)
I would like to re-include the phrase: writing sympathetically about each side.
It is important that we realise that we should not give one side a hostile treatment, and one side a sympathetic one. If you all agree, will someone make that edit? (I am currently involved in an ArbCom case on neutrality, so I feel I should not edit policy myself) — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Oi! Folks, you don't need to rv back and forth, that's taking one bridge too far. We can discuss like reasonable people, eh? -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 07:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
In a move that will doubtless earn me gifts of pavement from both sides, I've attempted to rewrite the sentences being argued over. [2]
I think I also might have made a grammar change or two. Anyway, I'm going to bed now. Hopefully this'll stop the issue before 3RR blocks and page protection start rolling in. -- erachima formerly tjstrf 08:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Martinphi has attempted to make his point. It was rejected for numerous reasons. Looks like we're done here. Move on. Consensus to keep the NPOV guideline as is stands. Martinphi should move on before he is reported for being tendentiously disruptive to the project as a whole. ScienceApologist ( talk) 22:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This policy is perhaps OK if there is no controversy on the subject. As soon as there is controversy this policy completely breaks down. Any argument advancing a point of view must be original research whether it is verifiable or not. This causes all controversial articles to be slanted in the direction of which side can control the editing of the article. 01001 ( talk) 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
You have no clue what OR means, do you? The WP:NOR policy refers only to original research by Wikipedia editors, not the research done by someone somewhere else which has been published in verifiable sources. -- erachima talk 07:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not certain that there is an answer to the logical absurdity in the policy, but I do think that the policy should address its intrinsic absurdity. 01001 ( talk) 03:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
The example given is flat earth which reads like a history article rather than a minority view page. This section could use a few examples of excellent minority view pages. Also, if the minority view regards concept A, does the minority view inhabit A in the name space, or should the article on A represent the majority view and there be an additional article A (minority view) that restates the majority view (as is required)? Pdbailey ( talk) 23:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
(backdent) I propose changing,
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them— Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.
to
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them— Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out detail, must make reference to the majority viewpoint
whenwhere relevant, and must identify minority view points as being those of the adherents to the minority view. An example of a minority view point page is Bates method.
Pdbailey ( talk) 04:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
This is certainly a tricky issue. The reason I think Flat Earth is a good example is that there aren't too many people on WP trying to push that POV. More "current" issues tend to have more partisan editors and less stability. Anyway, rather than linking to a page (that has probably already changed), a more effective example might be to copy portions of the page that show how the principle was applied. Of course, this may take up too much space. Sheffield Steel talk stalk 20:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Y'all do realize, don't you, that this means that in the article on Creationism, you would have to refer to Evolution as a minority view. And same in Evolution itself. This is a change which would be beloved of fringe people, as they would really get to contextualize as minority a great deal of scientific and scholarly work. I think most Americans, at least, still think the sun goes around the earth. Even if it isn't a majority, you get my drift. Now, if you are going to say that "only experts count," you will have to deal with the fact that in some areas such as Parapsychology, you would have to refer to the idea that Psi (parapsychology) is a minority viewpoint. Or if you say "only experts count, but in some cases 'experts' means the entire scientific community as a whole'" the you would have to deal with the fact that most scientists believe in some form of ESP. So think of the consequences of this. I would create a good deal of fun, though.
Please explain why you think this to be true. I think you have misread the suggested changes, but I'm open to being enlightened. Antelan talk 01:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
status: I made the changes.
Please comment as to whether a future POV War can be limited by careful framing of a new article. Here's an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nukeh/Sandbox/ObsceneProfits - Doug Youvan ( talk) 14:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
This project page says, "Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out detail, must make reference to the majority viewpoint where relevant, and must identify minority view points as being those of the adherents to the minority view. An example of a minority view point page is time cube or Bates method." And then also says, "A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article." These appear to be in conflict with one another? Which is the real policy, and how can the text be changed to reflect this? Pdbailey ( talk) 02:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process [4] by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.-- Filll ( talk) 14:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
There's no reason having this policy if we blatantly flout it on so many articles, and attempts to fix them are met with opposition to the contrary by several experienced Wikipedians, including admins. Sceptre ( talk) 09:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The ArbComs on Pseudoscience and Paranormal were recently added to a sub-page of WP:FRINGE [5]. The one on Pseudoscience was already in the FAQ, and I added the newer Paranormal one. I made a change in the wording, because "mainstream" and "science" were being equated. That happened for historical reasons: the Pseudoscience locus was around pseudoscientific views in mainstream scientific articles [6], and the wording may have come from that. Or perhaps it was merely an error: but think how many people believe in Creationism, and you'll see my point about the word "mainstream." But the FAQ did not make the distinction between mainstream science articles and others, such as those on fringe topics. Here is the edit [7]. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 07:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed Martinphi's FAQ additions as instruction creep, needlessly extensive, and advancing his peculiar POV in an untoward way (see WP:POVPUSH). Martin should be more careful as he is under restriction from Arbcom against making such disruptive edits. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
<undent> There are objections. Reading and interpreting arbcom cases is not a FAQ, and the current policy stays. In view of this wikilawyering Martinphi appears to be the last editor who should be trying to impose policy changes. .. dave souza, talk 19:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
For example, in Knotwork ( talk)'s opinion, the following might well be more factual than the paragraph it might well be a more factual replacement for:
By value or opinion, [1] on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That The Beatles were the greatest band in history is an opinion. That the United States is the only country in the world that has used a nuclear weapon for military purposes is a fact, contingent of course upon what exactly is meant by the term 'use' in the context. (Not all uses of weapons necessitate expending them, many significant military uses of weapons, such as their use in psychological warfare, cold wars, and such, permit using them whilst nonetheless also retaining them for continued or future use.) That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion. However, there are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included. [2] Knotwork ( talk) 09:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
In another discussion related to appropriate reliable sources for use with "statements of beliefs" (see here [9] if interested) the following potential NPOV scenarios were raised. I would appreciate knowing the current consensus on how NPOV applies in such circumstances ?
The following text is extracted and edited from the aforementioned discussion.
Some examples of problems:
- Organisations that are widely agreed to lie about some of their beliefs. For instance, for legal reasons, the Discovery Institute are known to claim their views and goals are not religious in "official" channels, but have been documented (partially in leaked secret documents) and otherwise shown in secondary sources as having a strong religious purpose.
- Cases where an organisation or individual's belief attacks some other belief system are dangerous, as unmoderated versions of their comments might be misleading about the other belief system unless great care is taken. Using [quotes from primary sources] would make NPOV very difficult, particularly if we're required to give their official beliefs IN A QUOTE, including all the false attacks on another group.
I am not the expert on NPOV policy (thats why I am asking you folks) but I would expect that while such articles would be controversial, as long as WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:SYN were strictly enforced then including even offensive comments or blatant lies would still be encyclopedia appropriate as long as any verifiable available contrary facts were given equal weight in the article. How does this work here? -- Low Sea ( talk) 08:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept
This is true. However the shape of the Earth is discussed in summary style and the main article is Figure of the Earth which links Flat Earth Society in the see also section. Taemyr ( talk) 12:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
How can NPOV be easily enforced on a contentious article? I'm talking about Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed in particular, but wondering what to do in general. I'm getting the feeling that one can't do more than their time and willingness to edit war will do, but maybe there's some system that works that I'm not aware of. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) 10:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I am writing to challenge critism pages as I believe they should be avoided to keep NPOV. "Critical evalutation" would preferable or a more balanced approach as I believe wikipedia is becoming a a very negative place and like trivia I think they should be depreciated in returne for a more nuetral approach. for example
PheonixRMB ( talk) 13:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Adhering to NPOV standards if very difficult if one is trying to challange conventional wisdom. For example I believe that the current analysis used to advocate for drastic CO2 reductions is fatally flawed. My attempts to post my explanation of these concerns on Wikipedia has been deleted because it didn't meet NPOV standards. How is one to present this argument in a "neutral" manner. I chose to relate my concerns to an old fable about "The King has no Clothes" becaus, I believe, it also represents a case where the few are trying to fool the many. CO2 doubter ( talk) 00:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC) I guess fables aren't allowed either. CO2 doubter ( talk) 00:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I have been informed many times that NPOV and WP:SPOV are the same things. There are many editors who wish to write articles which are under WP:FRINGE from an SPOV perspective (I could give plenty of quotes in case someone tries to deny it). Those editors are congregated here. I would like community input as to whether or not they (many of them) are correct that NPOV and SPOV are the same, and that SPOV is not a rejected principle from which to write Wikipedia articles.
To illustrate, in my opinion, editors wish to re-write this:
as
I could find many other statements from other edtors along the same lines, but this is clearest. For example [11] [12].
Depending on the outcome of the debate, I would like to suggest that WP:NPOV be altered to specifically deal with this issue so editors may be told specifically whether NPOV and SPOV are the same, and in what ways they differ.
If SPOV does not equal NPOV, I would also like some guidance to be given as to how to discern when an article is being written from an SPOV viewpoint- that is, I want the community to develop a general understanding of propriety on this issue. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "SPOV". Perhaps you mean the POV of certain scientists. Bensaccount ( talk) 23:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
GTBacchus, you have asked me to provide a better summary of the NPOV/SPOV discussion. You asked, Would you care to provide a more neutral summary of the two positions, for those unfamiliar with the issue's history? At the moment, I think that my fellow editors would best be served by reading the extensive discussion. This is largely because there are not "two positions", as you suggest, but instead a multitude of positions, all of which are in healthy tension with one another. This is not a situation that is easily dichotomized. However, it is trivially easy to be more neutral than Martinphi has been. Instead of giving you a specific example that will only be useful in one discussion, I will give you a rule that you can use any time: when a participant in an argument tries to summarize the argument, the neutrality of the summary is inversely proportional to its length. Martinphi's summary is quite long, filled with many opinions that only represent one side of many in a complicated series of arguments. Antelan talk 07:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that there aren't "two positions" and that it's an issue that isn't easily "dichotomized". We can probably take that as an axiom. The question isn't "does NPOV=SPOV?"; the question is "What does a neutral point of view look like for a topic about which there is a scientific view, and an opposed view with some level of popular or mainstream support?" I don't know where that summary sits on your inverse-relation scale. Did I succeed in the "trivially easy", and say something more neutral than Martinphi did? I'm pretty new to this debate, which is probably an advantage and a disadvantage. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, GTB has read it all and so can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think that with modifications of application and how extreme one should be (ScienceApologist is as extreme as you can get without invective, others are usually more moderate), it does boil down to "SPOV is mainstream scientific POV and has greatest WEIGHT in all articles or places which touch on material reality." Being neutral is why I provided quotes. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Right- you've worked in at least one fringe article I know of. We're working on the phrasing to establish SPOV within policy below. How would you phrase policy to reject SPOV in such a way that it would actually help in writing fringe articles?
Just so people know, I'm almost neutral as to whether WP adopts SPOV. I would slightly prefer WP to adopt SPOV, but I don't think it is very likely. But I want policy to be very clear and strong on the point, one way or another. So you know where I stand on it. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Any thoughts on how the following (especially the bolded part, which is my emphasis) might relate to OR and the incorporation and use of fringe claims here?:
I suspect that with a substitution of some words, we could get this turned into something useful for understanding the application of some policies here. -- Fyslee / talk 16:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's a try at substitution, making the principles apply broadly to Wikipedia's attitude toward OR/fringe POV:
Something like that. Try playing with it. -- Fyslee / talk 18:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
DGG wrote:
I'm somewhat disappointed by many of my fellow scientists here. They seem to think that the way to combat error is to hide it, not expose it. You'd think they were afraid that a presentation of the nonsensical position of these things would be less convincing than the scientific. Don't they think they can prove that a fair presentation will prove the SPOV?
I think one thing that you are missing, David, is that the point of our encyclopedia is not to "combat error" but rather to present reliable, verifiable information. Sure, if our intention was to write "debunkopedia" then we might want to do exactly as you outline. But our intention is to write an encyclopedia that, at least naively, is supposed to be something of a comprendium of human knowledge. Be that as it may, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. That is, most oddball ideas that come down the pipe are considered unworthy for inclusion in our encyclopedia. I see you voting delete on many of these subjects at the article level when they come up. It is up to the collective consensus of editors to decide how to handle them when they come up in articles that definitely should exist (e.g. ghost).
You seem to be convinced that what I and my allies are doing is "hiding" errors. This isn't quite true. Errors that are notable should be explored completely. But part of what establishes the notability of an error is whether it has received notice outside of the small cohort of individuals who advocate the error. You may think that the axis of the Earth has shifted, but unless someone else notices your "error", it does not belong in this encyclopedia. This is why it is so important to remember that it is the experts in the scientific community who determine what is notable about material reality. If an idea about material reality is noteworthy, then there will be verifiable and reliable independent sources that either point out its veracity or falsehood. However, if there is no notice of the idea outside the small group of advocates, then we exclude this idea from the encyclopedia. That's why we have an article on time cube but not on divulgence.net: we're ultimately publicity whores at Wikipedia in that publicity is ultimately what establishes whether we discuss erroneous ideas and consider them worthy of inclusion in our encyclopedia's articles or not.
The concern of certain Paranormal Wikiproject members has been that we might start excising mythology and even religion from articles or including silly statements like "it is physically impossible for water to turn into wine" in every reporting of that particular story. I have to say that this is a ridiculous strawman argument. Religion has its place as religion and mythology has its place as mythology. What does get problematic is when editors use mythology or religious exceptionalism to make claims about material reality. For example, if an editor started an article on water into wine transformation and used the story from the gospels as material evidence for the veracity of this occurrence, this would be unencyclopedic. It is this kind of advocacy that is being resisted by myself and those who agree with me. A myth need not make any claims on material reality in point-of-fact, but as soon as it is identified as an accurate description of reality, it is necessary for us to evaluate whether the source is reliable enough to make such a claim and, if it isn't, whether reporting that claim should be done in light of the fact that the source isn't reliable. That's where mythology/religion crosses the boundary into fringe theories, and that's where science wakes up and takes notice. If the claim is notable, then there will surely be plenty of sources agreeing with it or disputing it. If there are no independent sources dealing with the claim, then it is questionable as to whether the claim should be in Wikipedia at all.
The issue is that many fringe claims about material reality are so obscure that no reliable sources about material reality (read scientific community) has taken note to discuss them. That's when deleting/excising becomes necessary in order to maintain the integrity of our encyclopedia. You can consider it an extention of no original research mixed with sourcing rules. The issue is that if all the sources possible about a subject are written by true believers, the idea does not meet the threshholds required for inclusion at Wikipedia. Independent notice of the idea is really all that is required. If none exists then removal of content is required. The burden of proof is on the person wanting to include the material, not on the person that wants to exclude it. If the person wanting to include this fringe claim can find an independent source that identifies the claim, then we can proceed in describing it. If not, then we have to consider it not encyclopedic. That's the trick: that's the thing that bugs the hell out of the Paranormalists, and it's the activity in which I engage for which I am most hated here.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 09:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
However, we are well aware of the notability guidelines, which you are in large part just repeating here. You confuse me on this issue, because the real issue is that there are issues with mainstream notice, thus notability, but no scientific refutation.
But, it isn't really the important thing- notability is not the question, and notability has not really caused any problems in the past.
You have yourself advocated that:
I think that it is not unreasonable to take every claim about observable reality that is contrary to science (no matter how small) and point out, plainly, that it is contrary to science.... Plainly stating this and referencing a standard text[book -MP] on the subject… ScienceApologist (this was about a movie review article) [14]
and
Editors who think that SPOV is somehow contrary to NPOV and use the religious exceptionalism argument haven't really thought through what exactly SPOV is. ScienceApologist [15]
So people can be forgiven for thinking you mean this.
Anyway, I really see no problems with notability- if it hasn't gained mainstream notice, just exclude it. The problem arises with the perspective from which we make the articles, and when the subject has notability, but no really scientific sources. In other words, the issue is really SPOV. If you ever need help deleting a non-notable article, just let me know, you are not using all your allies in this. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Overall, SA's post just above strikes me as worthy of a new section. SA said:
I never rejected Carroll as a source. I reject Carroll as a source for flat statements of fact. Perhaps you don't, but then you don't need sources for flat statements of fact [16].
Why mention irrelevant things?
Carroll will continue to be used as an excellent source for framing the skeptical opinion of notable nonsensical claims.
"He is someone we rely on heavily..." Who's this "we?"
Carroll is mainstream? No. Carroll is a hardened skeptic, and says himself that he is not mainstream. He also says he is biased, and doesn't even try to take a balanced view.
Carroll does not try for balance:
The reader is forewarned that The Skeptic’s Dictionary does not try to present a balanced account of occult subjects. [17]
Carroll is biased:
My beliefs are clearly that of a hardened skeptic. [18]
Carroll's online Skeptic's Dictionary (most often used here as a source) is a self-published personal website.
The main drawback is the one which comes from self-publishing. There is no peer or professional review process. [19]
This is just the kind of source that you would rain derision on if it wasn't in accordance with your POV. As Carroll says,
As already stated, the one group that this book is not designed for is that of the true believers. My studies have convinced me that arguments or data critical of their beliefs are always considered by the true believer to be insignificant, irrelevant, manipulative, deceptive, not authoritative, unscientific, unfair, biased, closed-minded, irrational, and/or diabolical. (It is perhaps worth noting that except for the term “diabolical,” these are the same terms some hardened skeptics use to describe the studies and evidence presented by true believers.) [20]
Indeed. Those are the words used for sources SA doesn't like. Heck, I saw the NIH and AMA described thus. SA's little post above is just the kind of thing I have to deal with all the time in fringe articles. It's why SPOV is dangerous to WP. Carroll is fine for a skeptical opinion. He is not very good as an RS:
"Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious..." [21]
—— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you!! That is such a perfect statement. Please, everyone, note that there are a lot of editors who agree with ScienceApologist —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Suggestions:
Suggestion 1:
Wikipedia must continue to build its descriptions of scientifically relevant reality without incorporating poor or fringe sources. Editors are expected to use only well-established sources speaking about standard theories of conventional science. In all articles which make claims about material reality, the group that has by far the most significant viewpoint and must be given the highest prominence in the article is the scientific community. last sentence paraphrased from here —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Suggestion 1:
WEIGHT and Notability are relative to the subject of the article. For example, just as Creationism is a notable minority view in Evolution, Evolution is a notable minority view in Creationism. Notable minority views must be mentioned to the extent that their position is understandable, but need not be explicated at length. Fringe sources, when properly attributed may be used in articles about fringe subjects. Mainstream science is a notable viewpoint when dealing with fringe views that make serious claims about material reality, and articles on fringe subjects must make appropriate reference to it. Also, fringe articles must not reflect an attempt to rewrite mainstream scientific content from the perspective of the fringe view. On the other hand, fringe topics are not written from the perspective of mainstream science, but should written with the tone that all positions presented are at least worthy of unbiased representation. (wording adapted from current NPOV article) —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Note: This is a dissent to the whole concept of putting in a clause covering SPOV vs. NPOV. This debate doesn't belong in a policy. At best it belongs in an essay or guideline.
Call me a purest or minimalist, but Wikipedia already has excellent policies regarding neutrality and already addresses all of the above, "fairly represent all significant viewpoints" in "proportion to prominence". It doesn't need a clause regarding the scientific point of view and non-scientific point of view. Sometimes science is more prominent and sometimes it isn't... it's a case by case basis. On each topic editors must decide for themselves what is more prominent, and no other criteria beyond prominence matters except fairness. This is a "non-negotiable" policy, and it's meant to be simple and basic. The rest is regulated to guidelines and essays designed to help editors along, but provide no hard rules. You have groups of what I guess could be called "wiki-political" editors looking for sweeping changes to be made to policy so they can edit the way they want to. That's fine as far as guidelines go, but I'd like to see the fundamental policy of NPOV protected from them. This proposal should be moved to the WP:FRINGE guideline and away from the WP:NPOV policy. The basic fundamental policy that runs Wikipedia should be abstract and non-specific (especially on this politically charged topic). Of the Five Pillars of Wikipedia it is the only one that describes a "tone of voice". With the multitude of tones one can choose from, and the multitude of topics Wikipedia covers, I'd argue that the whole topic of SPOV vs. non-SPOV is not prominent enough to be covered in a basic fundamental policy that is meant to cover everything under the sun. I'm sure everyone who disagrees with me will say something along the lines of it's a make or break the project issue, but it's seriously not. -- Nealparr ( talk to me) 07:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
As to whether I can summarize the situation neutrally, the answer is that you won't find anyone who stuck with it very long without being invested. That's why I gave quotes. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This is to everyone here, Wikipedia in general. We have a situation in fringe areas in which editors are (in their own words) promoting SPOV. There are other editors promoting other things. There are next to no editors who are not promoting anything. The policies are vague enough that each side can, without getting absolutely and completely caught, act as if their interpretation is obvious and correct. You have an ArbCom decision which fixed most of this being ignored and reviled [24].
I'm tired of fighting the good fight. I have tried my best to promote exactly the style and content recommended by DGG above. His an my position are exactly the same in terms of content. For this, I have gotten a reputation as a fringe POV pusher.
I mostly stopped editing, but tried for a while to influence things in a way which would try to resolve this situation. I mean what I say above: it doesn't matter what angle WP chooses. But pretending to be NPOV while actually being SPOV (which is what we're heading toward) or any other POV is a betrayal of the reader.
I hear from DGG, an SPOV advocate in his personal outlook (I mean that I believe his basic outlook is more or less that of conventional science): "what else can you expert? last thing I heard, we were edited by humans, which are known to have certain weaknesses -- as seen by the uninvolved --0when defending things they care about. The reason I stopped editing articles on evolution was the attitude of some other pro-evolution editors, who did not want the views of the other side presented as well as the could have been, and accused me of treason." His experience on Evolution is reflected in every fringe/paranormal article.
That is the situation. I have presented my best suggestion for improving the situation above. The only other possibility I know of would be if the community started acting like it really means the NPOV thing.
I don't hear much in the way of suggestions for fixing the problem. Almost the only creative suggestions I have heard are SPOV promoters trying to solidify their position [25].
The closest thing to a creative suggestion here was "You have groups of what I guess could be called "wiki-political" editors looking for sweeping changes to be made to policy so they can edit the way they want to. That's fine as far as guidelines go, but I'd like to see the fundamental policy of NPOV protected from them. This proposal should be moved to the WP:FRINGE guideline and away from the WP:NPOV policy." By Nealparr.
If anyone would like to help in some way, perhaps by formulating in FRINGE some change or other which might actually stick and help, let me know. I generally sense no interest. Otherwise, my work in WP is done. I might drop back once in a while to see the changes. Good luck being taken seriously while making unsourced or anti-sourced unscientific statements like this and this- the last being against the cited source. I could give many other examples, but they mainly involve bias created through WEIGHT or tone. Good luck making an NPOV, reliable encyclopedia when sources such as the NIH, the AMA and mainstream chemistry journals are rejected as basic sources for Homeopathy because they aren't SPOV enough.
The funny thing is, I am usually able to prevail where I try hard, because when my arguments are heard the NPOV editors from outside agree with me. But my efforts are overridden in the general fringe scheme, because I am alone there. Those who believe as I do, for instance such skeptics as Northmeister and DGG, and editors like Nealparr and jossi, and a few others, edit fringe articles very little or not at all. NPOV skeptical editors are traitors to the cause.
So- any suggestions? Anyone want to do anything? —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to an SPOV statement on Wikipedia, at least not in theory. Nor am I clamoring for one. However, I am opposed to this statement of SPOV. My reasons for opposing this particular approach have already been said by Nealparr and MastCell, particularly: (1) WP covers nonscience subjects; and (2) we aren't fully applying current policy, so we don't know if an SPOV statement would be helpful or necessary. If we successfully and consistently apply NPOV but still see areas that are problematic, then we will have a much better idea of what kind of SPOV policy, if any, would be helpful. Antelan talk 20:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, Thanks for the responses. Can people brainstorm a bit to see how the problem might be solved, one way or another? —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Where are you coming from here, Martinphi? One moment it sounds like you're arguing pro-SPOV the other pro-NPOV. Which is it? (I argue for pro-NPOV, by the way.) mike4ty4 ( talk) 02:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't read everything above but wanted to comment and get opinion. SPOV is NPOV when we are talking about such basic building blocks such as "1+1=2" and things that build on that. There is little disagreement on this and I doubt stating this in the NPOV summary would help much. Issues arise when trying to interpret science or apply it. Then SPOV is not NPOV. Example is Global warming, (very poor article in my opinion). For articles that have a raw science and technology to them, such as nuclear power it would be good to keep POV out of the article and just talk about raw science, hopefully undisputed science. POV issues either positive or negative should become mostly subarticles. What do you think? Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 19:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Science most certainly has a POV (usually materialist and empirical). The assertion that science, as a whole pursuit and as a collection of individual disciplines, has no point of view is as much pseudo-philosophy as the study of productive cold fusion using kitchen sink battery cells is pseudo-science. Vassyana ( talk) 01:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
POV is the bane of many a history-related article here, and not just because of contentions between Wikipedia's editors. The religious encyclopedias that have provided information for numerous articles are copious with POV backing the sponsoring religions (Catholic Encyclopedia, Jewish Encyclopedia, etc.). — Rickyrab | Talk 16:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
{{ sofixit}} :) Vassyana ( talk) 15:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I have been developing Fiador (tack) to make it global. This has produced objections from other editors who seem to think the English wikipedia should address this topic only as it is known (and called "fiador") by English speakers. See Talk:Fiador (tack). In short, the other editors seem to be advocating a preference for POV bias along language lines. Has this issue emerged before, and if so where is it discussed and what was the outcome? -- Una Smith ( talk) 05:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
There is more of this meta-discussion here. -- Una Smith ( talk) 06:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Two or more possibilities should not be averaged together, they should be thought of separately and distinctly. Including all points of view should be encouraged as long as editors follow the concept of neutral presentation. If someone is truly open to the possibilities their beliefs/opinions are wrong or incomplete then they will present their views neutrally. Convergence Dude ( talk) 16:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello, there is a naming dispute at the China article. User:SchmuckyTheCat altered one of the rules here in order to help out his viewpoint (at 3:43 May 12). Just wanted to bring that to everyone's attention. I wanted some discussion of whether such a change in policies should be implentmented. T-1000 ( talk) 11:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I made a non-controversial change, except this user is purposefully mis-reading the policy and my change stops allowing his loophole. Here is the diff: [26].
The policy has three paragraphs on naming conflicts, and specifically defers summary style to WP:Naming conflict. The second paragraph summarizes policy on naming conflicts with descriptive names: the problems we have with article titles like Allegations of state terrorism by the United States which have resulted in deletion and move wars forEVAR. The third paragraph summarizes policy on proper nouns: titles like China and Bill Clinton.
Because there are contradictory ways of handling the two types of article titles, there are slightly different policies in play. T-1000 is misquoting the descriptive summary in an argument about proper nouns in order to create an NPOV conflict where there isn't one. All my change does is make it explicit that the second paragraph is talking about descriptive article titles, something that was already implicit by all the examples used. Since this paragraph is also a summary of part of naming conflict, the change is a more accurate summary and reconciliation between the two. SchmuckyTheCat ( talk)
What if an NPOV prohibited word such as "propaganda" is accurate within a definition? For example, I tried to specifically note in the scientific racism article that that phrase is used as an accusation of alleged propaganda but someone reverted it claiming the word "propaganda" is NPOV, this seems wrong. I have appropriately caveatted the use of "propaganda" with "alleged" I believe. It seems odd that the claim of a neutrality violation can be used to prevent increased accuracy within an article. Definition wise within Wikipedia how should someone go about describing possible or an accusation of propaganda as possible propaganda? Convergence Dude ( talk) 01:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe it to be a fact that the phrase "scientific racism" is used as an accusation that a publication or something is allegedly racist propaganda. Though I agree the phrase has other contradictory definitions and I noted as such in my changes to scientific racism that were reverted, shouldn't we specifically note that the phrase "scientific racism" has contradictory uses and definitions? A wikipedia article should present all viewpoints, including the critical viewpoint, consensus does not mean average (especially when there are 2 contradictory definitions involved). Convergence Dude ( talk) 05:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone going to respond directly to my question of whether "propaganda" might be ok when used caveatted inside a definition as in: "One among multiple definitions of the phrase scientific racism is describing alleged propaganda masquerading as scientific research"? Has anyone taken a look at scientific racism? Convergence Dude ( talk) 20:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
A previous talk page alleged "consensus" is not an automatic justification for a revert, you have to actually indicate the specifics of why you think someone's changes are wrong. Wikipedia has warped the fundamental concept of consensus, consensus means everyone and does not mean average nor majority, if just one person disagrees you no longer have a consensus by its true definition. Convergence Dude ( talk) 17:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
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Imo, the undue weight section makes a laudable effort, but only in one direction. I think the concept works both ways and the section should be slightly amended to also warn against censorship in articles. I.e., information that has been covered by reliable sources should be given DUE weight, according to its significance within the entirety of the topic. Otherwise, as is frequently the case, some do game the policy by claiming UNDUE whenever someone tries to improve the completeness and thereby overall accuracy of an article. User: Dorftrottel 12:23, February 19, 200 8
There is no indication "how much is due". From the phrase "not as much as" in the UNDUE policy section, it follows that whatever is due must be less than 50%. I propose to add the following to the section:
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 15:22, 26 February 2008 (UTC) |
What determines a specialist? How does one measure the general population? Since most of the population doesn't know what the capital of Brunei is, do we say that Brunei doesn't have a known capital? Etc. etc. etc. ScienceApologist ( talk) 22:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)
— Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 08:41, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
moved section up from more below to avoid confusion, Xiutwel, 08:44, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I took out the new content in the undue weight section. I'd rather not have editors who are involved in undue weight debates and minority views go and start changing relevant policy without discussion first. Being bold is a good thing but sometimes it can go too far. I realize some modifications were made to that section, but I'd still prefer changes to come from the ground up via discussion. Thanks. RxS ( talk) 16:00, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I don't see what is unclear about the policy as it stands. Why does it need to be changed? The case does not seem to have been made. Dlabtot ( talk) 12:10, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not entirely sure about what we have written for Morally offensive views:
Morally offensive views
What about views that are morally offensive to most Westerners, such as racism, sexism, and Holocaust denial, that some people actually hold? Surely we are not to be neutral about them?
We report views that have been published by reliable sources. We do not report views that are held by tiny minorities, or views that reliable sources do not write about. Beyond that, we make no judgements. No view is omitted because someone might see it as prejudiced; if it is omitted from Wikipedia, it is because reliable sources have omitted it.
What I think:
I don't know if other people could help with that...
Thanks, Drum guy ( talk) 14:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)
Would anyone mind if I removed the templates that are accumulating at the top of the page? They are unnecessary instruction creep. Bensaccount ( talk) 22:16, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
If someone has an NPOV temp on their user talk page, we're not going to please them no matter what we do. If we can communicate, just a tiny bit, we're a little further ahead. If you quickly scan those text boxes you know that a) NPOV is a policy, b) we're serious about it, and c) NPOV means x. Maybe you'll stop whatever it is you're doing without a block, which means there's an incrementally larger chance you'll stick around and contribute effectively. The greater good of the project is worth a little clutter. Darkspots ( talk) 13:16, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Whoa, whoa, whoa. The "you" in my post above is not you, Bensaccount. The "you" is a theoretical new user who has a {{Uw-npov1}} template on their user talk page. You misread my post--why in the world would I threaten you with a block? You and I are both longtime editors, and I've never thought differently.
We're talking about the same two templates. I'm talking about my impression of how the page would look to an impatient new user who made some edits that were considered tendentious and got an NPOV template slapped on their user talk page. They hit the link to this page, and look at it for the first time. My post above describes what they would see in a quick scan of the page. Perhaps they would then stop what they were doing because they realize that we have policy that covers this and we're serious about that policy. If they don't stop, they'll get blocked, and we almost certainly lose that contributor.
My above post is a little unclear, and I apologize for being unclear. But my arguments, I think, make a lot more sense than you give them credit for. I'm talking about a certain kind of user that this page needs to communicate with, and I think these text boxes could help to reach that kind of user. Every post I've made above describes that user in greater detail. My impression of your responses to me above is that you feel that impatient, tendentious new users can either read unvarnished plain text or lump it. I think that we need to try to reach these people, to do something to communicate with them, and that these text boxes are a good way to get across the points that need to be made to them. Darkspots ( talk) 17:56, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
I protest this "policy" and don't think popularity is a factor of truth. Here's my suggestion for an alternative: Wikipedia:Balance Your Perspectives. To any admins, if the page is to be deleted for not being official, I understand, if it has been, see User:IdLoveOne/Balance Your Perspectives. IdLoveOne ( talk) 03:14, 20 March 2008 (UTC)
I have had additions I have made to articles removed that were verifiable and annotated clearly because editors, who had to make it clear they are part of Wikipedia's elite, did not agree with what I said. One addition, to a politician's page, was made "OK" through a lot of modification, was later moved to a separate page about a certain election, and later removed. You can threaten to banish me after one warning, you can stick your nose up in the air, you can demand politeness, but the TRUTH is that there are editors who seem to be highly placed who are damned hypocrites who have their own political adgenda that dictates what is allowable on Wiki, and I think it stinks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.141.198.58 ( talk) 05:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
I'm concerned about the rush to introduce changes to a core policy, with discussions being templated closed after just a few days. WP:UNDUE is just fine and perfectly clear as it is. It already provides a sensible, workable guideline for determining what constitutes a significant view and what constitutes undue weight. It shouldn't be changed just because some folks aren't winning their battles. Dlabtot ( talk) 12:01, 1 March 2008 (UTC)
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. On such pages the minority view may be spelled out in great detail, and appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint can be shown in a linked article devoted to majority views of the minority topic.
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, the article must include appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint showing the majority view of each topic covered in the article, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.
As I review past disputes on this topic, it strikes me that we have to do a better job of describing NPOV and documenting NPOV, handling difficult cases that "fall between the cracks" like what to do with FRINGE topics which have not been addressed by the mainstream in
WP:RS since they are so obscure, giving examples and training people in NPOV. Part of the problem is that we just are too obscure and confusing when we describe NPOV. The information is spread over too many pages and too confusing. I would like to see an FAQ and other tools to help people understand NPOV. For example, creating an FAQ on the
evolution talk page helped tremendously. I would like to see two versions; a succinct version with just short one sentence summary answers, and a longer set of FAQ answers.
Even if we do a better job of describing NPOV, we will always have some who are frantic to misinterpret NPOV or reinterpret NPOV. We will never change these. What we will do, is make it far easier for the average editor to get up to speed very fast on NPOV to slam these characters who want to misinterpret NPOV for their own purposes. -- Filll ( talk) 19:03, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
Xiutwel: On second thought, do you have an example of what you would like to change? Anthon01 ( talk) 02:53, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
What happens when the majority view is out of sync with the evidence? When science says one thing but the public believe another wouldn't that make science the fringe view and thus mean that the entry should be weighed towards the popular opinion?
For example, if it could be demonstrated that 90% of the population believed that folk remedy XYZ worked, but 1 scientist does an experiment that said that proves that it didn't. Would the fringe be the uneducated masses or the educated scientist, and how would you weigh it? - perfectblue ( talk) 17:53, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
The "Dispute Resolution" page suggests asking questions on policy talk pages for deeper insights on them; so hello. I'm trying to understand when the "exceptions" for WP:UNDUE apply. Because the group I belong to is in a "tiny-minority", it is contended by editors from the mainstream Baha'is that the policy of undue weight exempts our views from being stated on the Baha'i divisions page; a page which outlines the history of division in the Faith. The discussions I've read here mainly have covered scientific views. My concern is religious in nature.
It has been contended on the talk page that the only appropriate place for criticisms of the mainstream group is on main article pages devoted to that particular group in the minority. I've contended that the policy states ""Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented *except* in articles devoted to those views". My question is what dictates exactly what is an "article devoted to those views"? Am I confused to think that an article that summarizes the history of dissent in the Faith is "devoted to those views"? The opposing contention is "This article is about Baha'i divisions, not Remeyite postions on Baha'i divisions. The majority position is the Baha'i position. As such your opinions are indeed tiny-minority ones — even here. Therefore, your insisting that it be "established or even eluded that anyone believed the UHJ was 'not elected per Shoghi Effendi's instructions'" be included is inappropriate. You've already got pages to make your own points." I wasn't ever trying to give and "extended treatment" to our view, but rather include one sentence that sums it up. They contend that the article is about the "majorities view" on the matter. So doesn't that mean its an "article devoted to those views"? Baha'i Under the CovenantJeff 07:15, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
Part of this depends on just how "tiny" your particular group is. Has it received sufficient coverage to warrant an article of its own? If so, its own article is actually the place that the section means as being "devoted to those views," and it would be quite appropriate to describe everything about them there. On a broader page such as this one, it depends. The article you're talking about isn't actually specifically about listing all cases of dissent, but rather the major divisions. However, if your particular case is notable enough, you should be able to show some reliable third-party sources commenting on it. This may be enough to warrant just a sentence or two. -- Infophile (Talk) (Contribs) 17:39, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
How should you play it when you have a topic where the primary point of notability comes from sources that express one side of an argument but which are usually considered unreliable, while the other side of the argument comes from reliable sources but is not in itself notable enough to carry an entry, or even to justify its existence?
For example. On one side somebody claims to see a monster in the local lake. It generates masses of wild and spurious claims (sufficient to make it notable) all saying that the creature is real and that there is evidence for its existence and generating masses of potential content. On the other side there is a 1/2 page word entry in a peer reviewed journal explaining that the monster was something perfectly explainable, and that the evidence isn't. Not enough to make the entry notable. How do we weight it? Do you crop the first side down to give the second side the weight of the entry, do you give them equal billing, or do you do you say that because the first side has the weight of notability it should have the weight of the entry?
perfectblue ( talk) 17:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)
Any thoughts on removing the "History of NPOV" section" (perhaps by moving it to the talk page)? It adds quite a bit of text without adding any guidance regarding NPOV. Moreover, I would expect that the specific history of the principle and the policy are of interest to relatively few people... Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:19, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. It would be very hard to alter the basic principle of neutrality without altering the nature of wikipedia.
This much is true. However, foundation issues *are* negotiable. Have been negotiated, are occasionally negotiated, still need to be negotiated today.
Hey, it's on meta, a foundation wiki. It's determined by consensus!
The consequences of such negotiation can be rather large, so it's potentially very hard to make headway... so I guess lots of people have never tried.
But saying that they're non-negotiable is silly. If you want to make them non-negotiable, please negotiate that option on meta first. Oh, and good luck with that.
Contradiction with foundation issues therefore removed.
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 11:22, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(undent) My preferred wording:
“ | Neutral point of view is a fundamental Wikipedia principle. It would be very hard to alter the basic principle of neutrality without altering the nature of Wikipedia. | ” |
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 14:10, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
According to Jimbo Wales, "NPOV is absolute and non-negotiable". [1]
The link to the mailing list message had become incorrect, by 2006 the reference (in a footnote by then) read:
NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable" in statement by Jimbo Wales in November 2003 and reconfirmed by Jimbo Wales in April 2006 in the context of lawsuits.
The first of the two included links in this version is still OK, the second is out of order but shouldn't be too hard to locate. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 14:47, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
Note that currently the third paragraph of the NPOV policy page also has "[...] This is non-negotiable [...]", no longer needing Jimbo to support the inclusion of this statement.
Whatever the statement at m:Foundation issues (which includes statements w.r.t. to all Wikimedia projects), for en:Wikipedia the formulation has continued to be ... "non-negotiable" ... since November 2003, as far as I can remember without interruption. For the Wikimedia projects in general it became "essentially considered to be beyond debate" some time later, covering some other principles too. For English Wikipedia we kept "non-negotiable" for WP:NPOV at the time, and after, until today.
Anyway, if you want to negotiate about it, do so with the Wikimedia Foundation, it *is* a Foundation issue now. I don't see any major issues caused by non-negotiability on this page. -- Francis Schonken ( talk) 15:08, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(post-ec) Now having read the 2006-april statement, this seems to refer to dealings with the outside world, where this is a useful position. In other news, it might be interesting to draw Jimbo into this debate (by which I mean actual debate, not drive-by posting ^^;;) but I'm not sure he has much time -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 15:31, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
(ec) @Blackfalcon: Well, I figure that if you can't convince people that they need to remain neutral or follow other best practices of their own accord, they're going to be a net time sink and a negative contributor to the encyclopedia anyway. (As they will constantly need to be watched, thus using up valuable time of other volunteers.)
In that situation, the only benefit of having a hard rule is that you get to drive the bad apples away a little faster. On the other hand, you'll also end up driving away people who are redeemable (because no one bothers to redeem them).
So having a soft rule allows you to recruit more good editors. At the same time it also gives you a decent rationale to actually get rid of the bad editors ("we really tried, but they're just not listening").
Cynically: When it comes to The Exchange Of Diffs (tm) in many dispute resolution processes, you'll end up looking squeaky clean, while the "bad guys" look really bad indeed. Getting them banned is so much easier then. O:-)
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 18:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
In reply to a bit further up, why soft rules allow for less wiki-lawyering? Well, that's an interesting one. You're still going by intuition there. ;-)
Here's a general case:
If you're trying to find a way around a rule, and you have to negotiate about the exact interpretation of a rule anyway, there's only so far you can go while still taking into account the other party (or parties). And once you've agreed on what to do, you need to stick to the agreement. Lawyering your way out of a good faith agreement is generally "Not Done". Also you know *exactly* who you will be offending, and social pressure will keep you in line. Forget loopholes. Other people you've talked with will know exactly what you're up to and tell you off. "No, we really agreed to this behaviour... stick with the program". You use soft rules for community standards and for meatball:SoftSecurity, when you would like people to cooperate.
Conversely, a hard rule is set by some anonymous entity far removed from the trenches. It is triggered in an exact set of circumstances. If you know the exact trigger, you can act right up to the line and not get into trouble... except if you sneeze, in which case you're suddenly banned for a week. ;-) If there's a loophole, you can sneak through. Very few people will care if you sneak through a loophole, because (practically) no one has any vested interest in your good behavior (at best they have a vested interest in you Not Being There At All :-P). You typically only use hard rules for meatball:HardSecurity, when you have already given up on people.
In general, if you have to start using hard rules, you're probably better off just banning people outright (which is a basic expression of hard security).
So to summarize: Soft rules are for keeping people working together, hard rules are for keeping people out.
Now, what is NPOV for?
-- Kim Bruning ( talk) 20:58, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
In the
peer review of the
folk metal article I've worked on, someone has expressed strong objection to the use of quotes that precede some of the sections in the article. Each of the quotes are from a member of a band that is subsequently discussed at length in the paragraph that immediately follows the quote. The significance of each band to the genre of folk metal is explained in that ensuing discussion. When I added those quotes, I was really just trying to make the article look more attractive. None of the quotes except for the last one is really important and they can all be discarded without effecting the substantive quality of the article. I do not have a problem with doing that if it should be done but I'm curious to know whether the objection being made has any merit. The objection rests on the notion that the quotes "places special emphasis on the sources being quoted" and "elevates a particular source's views and gives in implicit value above any other views, and is thus inherently un-neutral." I do not quite understand however how the use of any of these quotes is contrary to wikipedia's policy on having a neutral point of view. There's nothing controversial about folk metal nor is there anything controversial about anything mentioned in the quotes or the person being quoted. The quotes are inoffensive remarks that primarily serve as mere eye candy. I can understand it if an objection is made because the quotes are mere eye-candy but not this argument that they are inherently un-neutral.
I also note that other articles on wikipedia also contain quotes in a manner that I believe is similar to that found in the folk metal article. The
Battle of Greece opens with a quote from Mussolini and there's no explanation as to why his viewpoint should be prominently quoted at the opening instead of the viewpoint of some other individual like Hitler or Metaxas. The article on
U2 also contains quotes very prominently by the band members as well as other sources like Brian Eno, The Rolling Stones and an author named Caroline van oosten de Boer. No explanation is provided as to why the (positive) viewpoints of U2 from these sources should be quoted at length. None of the quotes I used in the folk metal article give that kind of positive spin in my view. They are just tantalising brief comments to open a section more attractively. Both the Battle of Greece and U2 were promoted to featured article status with all those quotes which indicate to me that there's nothing wrong or inherentely un-neutral about using quotes in such a manner. I would like to hear what others think though so please give me some feedback. Cheers. --
Bardin (
talk) 11:45, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Although NPOV is often an editor's all-purpose weapon of choice, it doesn't actually apply here because this is not a question of conflicting perspectives on a topic. It is a question of opinions preceding facts. I would refer you to facts precede opinions. Bensaccount ( talk) 16:27, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
The neutral point of view is a point of view that is neutral, that is neither sympathetic nor in opposition to its subject: it endorses nor discourages viewpoints. Debates within topics are described, represented and characterized, writing sympathetically about each side; but they are not engaged in. ( diff)
I would like to re-include the phrase: writing sympathetically about each side.
It is important that we realise that we should not give one side a hostile treatment, and one side a sympathetic one. If you all agree, will someone make that edit? (I am currently involved in an ArbCom case on neutrality, so I feel I should not edit policy myself) — Xiutwel ♫☺♥♪ (speech has the power to bind the absolute) 10:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Oi! Folks, you don't need to rv back and forth, that's taking one bridge too far. We can discuss like reasonable people, eh? -- Kim Bruning ( talk) 07:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
In a move that will doubtless earn me gifts of pavement from both sides, I've attempted to rewrite the sentences being argued over. [2]
I think I also might have made a grammar change or two. Anyway, I'm going to bed now. Hopefully this'll stop the issue before 3RR blocks and page protection start rolling in. -- erachima formerly tjstrf 08:22, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Martinphi has attempted to make his point. It was rejected for numerous reasons. Looks like we're done here. Move on. Consensus to keep the NPOV guideline as is stands. Martinphi should move on before he is reported for being tendentiously disruptive to the project as a whole. ScienceApologist ( talk) 22:39, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
This policy is perhaps OK if there is no controversy on the subject. As soon as there is controversy this policy completely breaks down. Any argument advancing a point of view must be original research whether it is verifiable or not. This causes all controversial articles to be slanted in the direction of which side can control the editing of the article. 01001 ( talk) 00:49, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
You have no clue what OR means, do you? The WP:NOR policy refers only to original research by Wikipedia editors, not the research done by someone somewhere else which has been published in verifiable sources. -- erachima talk 07:26, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
I am not certain that there is an answer to the logical absurdity in the policy, but I do think that the policy should address its intrinsic absurdity. 01001 ( talk) 03:10, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
The example given is flat earth which reads like a history article rather than a minority view page. This section could use a few examples of excellent minority view pages. Also, if the minority view regards concept A, does the minority view inhabit A in the name space, or should the article on A represent the majority view and there be an additional article A (minority view) that restates the majority view (as is required)? Pdbailey ( talk) 23:33, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
(backdent) I propose changing,
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them— Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out in great detail, it must make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint, and must not reflect an attempt to rewrite majority-view content strictly from the perspective of the minority view.
to
Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them— Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out detail, must make reference to the majority viewpoint
whenwhere relevant, and must identify minority view points as being those of the adherents to the minority view. An example of a minority view point page is Bates method.
Pdbailey ( talk) 04:22, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
This is certainly a tricky issue. The reason I think Flat Earth is a good example is that there aren't too many people on WP trying to push that POV. More "current" issues tend to have more partisan editors and less stability. Anyway, rather than linking to a page (that has probably already changed), a more effective example might be to copy portions of the page that show how the principle was applied. Of course, this may take up too much space. Sheffield Steel talk stalk 20:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
Y'all do realize, don't you, that this means that in the article on Creationism, you would have to refer to Evolution as a minority view. And same in Evolution itself. This is a change which would be beloved of fringe people, as they would really get to contextualize as minority a great deal of scientific and scholarly work. I think most Americans, at least, still think the sun goes around the earth. Even if it isn't a majority, you get my drift. Now, if you are going to say that "only experts count," you will have to deal with the fact that in some areas such as Parapsychology, you would have to refer to the idea that Psi (parapsychology) is a minority viewpoint. Or if you say "only experts count, but in some cases 'experts' means the entire scientific community as a whole'" the you would have to deal with the fact that most scientists believe in some form of ESP. So think of the consequences of this. I would create a good deal of fun, though.
Please explain why you think this to be true. I think you have misread the suggested changes, but I'm open to being enlightened. Antelan talk 01:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
status: I made the changes.
Please comment as to whether a future POV War can be limited by careful framing of a new article. Here's an example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nukeh/Sandbox/ObsceneProfits - Doug Youvan ( talk) 14:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
This project page says, "Minority views can receive attention on pages specifically devoted to them—Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia. But on such pages, though a view may be spelled out detail, must make reference to the majority viewpoint where relevant, and must identify minority view points as being those of the adherents to the minority view. An example of a minority view point page is time cube or Bates method." And then also says, "A POV fork is an attempt to evade NPOV policy by creating a new article about a certain subject that is already treated in an article, often to avoid or highlight negative or positive viewpoints or facts. This is generally considered unacceptable. The generally accepted policy is that all facts and major Points of View on a certain subject are treated in one article." These appear to be in conflict with one another? Which is the real policy, and how can the text be changed to reflect this? Pdbailey ( talk) 02:11, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
I would like to invite you to consider taking part in the AGF Challenge which has been proposed for use in the RfA process [4] by User: Kim Bruning. You can answer in multiple choice format, or using essay answers, or anonymously. You can of course skip any parts of the Challenge you find objectionable or inadvisable.-- Filll ( talk) 14:16, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
There's no reason having this policy if we blatantly flout it on so many articles, and attempts to fix them are met with opposition to the contrary by several experienced Wikipedians, including admins. Sceptre ( talk) 09:47, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
The ArbComs on Pseudoscience and Paranormal were recently added to a sub-page of WP:FRINGE [5]. The one on Pseudoscience was already in the FAQ, and I added the newer Paranormal one. I made a change in the wording, because "mainstream" and "science" were being equated. That happened for historical reasons: the Pseudoscience locus was around pseudoscientific views in mainstream scientific articles [6], and the wording may have come from that. Or perhaps it was merely an error: but think how many people believe in Creationism, and you'll see my point about the word "mainstream." But the FAQ did not make the distinction between mainstream science articles and others, such as those on fringe topics. Here is the edit [7]. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 07:20, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
I removed Martinphi's FAQ additions as instruction creep, needlessly extensive, and advancing his peculiar POV in an untoward way (see WP:POVPUSH). Martin should be more careful as he is under restriction from Arbcom against making such disruptive edits. ScienceApologist ( talk) 08:26, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
<undent> There are objections. Reading and interpreting arbcom cases is not a FAQ, and the current policy stays. In view of this wikilawyering Martinphi appears to be the last editor who should be trying to impose policy changes. .. dave souza, talk 19:28, 15 April 2008 (UTC)
For example, in Knotwork ( talk)'s opinion, the following might well be more factual than the paragraph it might well be a more factual replacement for:
By value or opinion, [1] on the other hand, we mean "a matter which is subject to dispute." There are many propositions that very clearly express values or opinions. That stealing is wrong is a value or opinion. That The Beatles were the greatest band in history is an opinion. That the United States is the only country in the world that has used a nuclear weapon for military purposes is a fact, contingent of course upon what exactly is meant by the term 'use' in the context. (Not all uses of weapons necessitate expending them, many significant military uses of weapons, such as their use in psychological warfare, cold wars, and such, permit using them whilst nonetheless also retaining them for continued or future use.) That the United States was right or wrong to drop the atomic bomb over Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a value or opinion. However, there are bound to be borderline cases where it is not clear if a particular dispute should be taken seriously and included. [2] Knotwork ( talk) 09:03, 19 April 2008 (UTC)
In another discussion related to appropriate reliable sources for use with "statements of beliefs" (see here [9] if interested) the following potential NPOV scenarios were raised. I would appreciate knowing the current consensus on how NPOV applies in such circumstances ?
The following text is extracted and edited from the aforementioned discussion.
Some examples of problems:
- Organisations that are widely agreed to lie about some of their beliefs. For instance, for legal reasons, the Discovery Institute are known to claim their views and goals are not religious in "official" channels, but have been documented (partially in leaked secret documents) and otherwise shown in secondary sources as having a strong religious purpose.
- Cases where an organisation or individual's belief attacks some other belief system are dangerous, as unmoderated versions of their comments might be misleading about the other belief system unless great care is taken. Using [quotes from primary sources] would make NPOV very difficult, particularly if we're required to give their official beliefs IN A QUOTE, including all the false attacks on another group.
I am not the expert on NPOV policy (thats why I am asking you folks) but I would expect that while such articles would be controversial, as long as WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:SYN were strictly enforced then including even offensive comments or blatant lies would still be encyclopedia appropriate as long as any verifiable available contrary facts were given equal weight in the article. How does this work here? -- Low Sea ( talk) 08:18, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
For example, the article on the Earth does not mention modern support for the Flat Earth concept
This is true. However the shape of the Earth is discussed in summary style and the main article is Figure of the Earth which links Flat Earth Society in the see also section. Taemyr ( talk) 12:54, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
How can NPOV be easily enforced on a contentious article? I'm talking about Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed in particular, but wondering what to do in general. I'm getting the feeling that one can't do more than their time and willingness to edit war will do, but maybe there's some system that works that I'm not aware of. - Peregrine Fisher ( talk) 10:02, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
I am writing to challenge critism pages as I believe they should be avoided to keep NPOV. "Critical evalutation" would preferable or a more balanced approach as I believe wikipedia is becoming a a very negative place and like trivia I think they should be depreciated in returne for a more nuetral approach. for example
PheonixRMB ( talk) 13:31, 23 April 2008 (UTC)
Adhering to NPOV standards if very difficult if one is trying to challange conventional wisdom. For example I believe that the current analysis used to advocate for drastic CO2 reductions is fatally flawed. My attempts to post my explanation of these concerns on Wikipedia has been deleted because it didn't meet NPOV standards. How is one to present this argument in a "neutral" manner. I chose to relate my concerns to an old fable about "The King has no Clothes" becaus, I believe, it also represents a case where the few are trying to fool the many. CO2 doubter ( talk) 00:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC) I guess fables aren't allowed either. CO2 doubter ( talk) 00:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)
I have been informed many times that NPOV and WP:SPOV are the same things. There are many editors who wish to write articles which are under WP:FRINGE from an SPOV perspective (I could give plenty of quotes in case someone tries to deny it). Those editors are congregated here. I would like community input as to whether or not they (many of them) are correct that NPOV and SPOV are the same, and that SPOV is not a rejected principle from which to write Wikipedia articles.
To illustrate, in my opinion, editors wish to re-write this:
as
I could find many other statements from other edtors along the same lines, but this is clearest. For example [11] [12].
Depending on the outcome of the debate, I would like to suggest that WP:NPOV be altered to specifically deal with this issue so editors may be told specifically whether NPOV and SPOV are the same, and in what ways they differ.
If SPOV does not equal NPOV, I would also like some guidance to be given as to how to discern when an article is being written from an SPOV viewpoint- that is, I want the community to develop a general understanding of propriety on this issue. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 06:28, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
There is no such thing as "SPOV". Perhaps you mean the POV of certain scientists. Bensaccount ( talk) 23:47, 29 March 2008 (UTC)
GTBacchus, you have asked me to provide a better summary of the NPOV/SPOV discussion. You asked, Would you care to provide a more neutral summary of the two positions, for those unfamiliar with the issue's history? At the moment, I think that my fellow editors would best be served by reading the extensive discussion. This is largely because there are not "two positions", as you suggest, but instead a multitude of positions, all of which are in healthy tension with one another. This is not a situation that is easily dichotomized. However, it is trivially easy to be more neutral than Martinphi has been. Instead of giving you a specific example that will only be useful in one discussion, I will give you a rule that you can use any time: when a participant in an argument tries to summarize the argument, the neutrality of the summary is inversely proportional to its length. Martinphi's summary is quite long, filled with many opinions that only represent one side of many in a complicated series of arguments. Antelan talk 07:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
I absolutely agree that there aren't "two positions" and that it's an issue that isn't easily "dichotomized". We can probably take that as an axiom. The question isn't "does NPOV=SPOV?"; the question is "What does a neutral point of view look like for a topic about which there is a scientific view, and an opposed view with some level of popular or mainstream support?" I don't know where that summary sits on your inverse-relation scale. Did I succeed in the "trivially easy", and say something more neutral than Martinphi did? I'm pretty new to this debate, which is probably an advantage and a disadvantage. - GTBacchus( talk) 16:39, 1 April 2008 (UTC)
Well, GTB has read it all and so can correct me if I'm wrong, but I do think that with modifications of application and how extreme one should be (ScienceApologist is as extreme as you can get without invective, others are usually more moderate), it does boil down to "SPOV is mainstream scientific POV and has greatest WEIGHT in all articles or places which touch on material reality." Being neutral is why I provided quotes. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:17, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Right- you've worked in at least one fringe article I know of. We're working on the phrasing to establish SPOV within policy below. How would you phrase policy to reject SPOV in such a way that it would actually help in writing fringe articles?
Just so people know, I'm almost neutral as to whether WP adopts SPOV. I would slightly prefer WP to adopt SPOV, but I don't think it is very likely. But I want policy to be very clear and strong on the point, one way or another. So you know where I stand on it. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 01:24, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Any thoughts on how the following (especially the bolded part, which is my emphasis) might relate to OR and the incorporation and use of fringe claims here?:
I suspect that with a substitution of some words, we could get this turned into something useful for understanding the application of some policies here. -- Fyslee / talk 16:50, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's a try at substitution, making the principles apply broadly to Wikipedia's attitude toward OR/fringe POV:
Something like that. Try playing with it. -- Fyslee / talk 18:14, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
DGG wrote:
I'm somewhat disappointed by many of my fellow scientists here. They seem to think that the way to combat error is to hide it, not expose it. You'd think they were afraid that a presentation of the nonsensical position of these things would be less convincing than the scientific. Don't they think they can prove that a fair presentation will prove the SPOV?
I think one thing that you are missing, David, is that the point of our encyclopedia is not to "combat error" but rather to present reliable, verifiable information. Sure, if our intention was to write "debunkopedia" then we might want to do exactly as you outline. But our intention is to write an encyclopedia that, at least naively, is supposed to be something of a comprendium of human knowledge. Be that as it may, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. That is, most oddball ideas that come down the pipe are considered unworthy for inclusion in our encyclopedia. I see you voting delete on many of these subjects at the article level when they come up. It is up to the collective consensus of editors to decide how to handle them when they come up in articles that definitely should exist (e.g. ghost).
You seem to be convinced that what I and my allies are doing is "hiding" errors. This isn't quite true. Errors that are notable should be explored completely. But part of what establishes the notability of an error is whether it has received notice outside of the small cohort of individuals who advocate the error. You may think that the axis of the Earth has shifted, but unless someone else notices your "error", it does not belong in this encyclopedia. This is why it is so important to remember that it is the experts in the scientific community who determine what is notable about material reality. If an idea about material reality is noteworthy, then there will be verifiable and reliable independent sources that either point out its veracity or falsehood. However, if there is no notice of the idea outside the small group of advocates, then we exclude this idea from the encyclopedia. That's why we have an article on time cube but not on divulgence.net: we're ultimately publicity whores at Wikipedia in that publicity is ultimately what establishes whether we discuss erroneous ideas and consider them worthy of inclusion in our encyclopedia's articles or not.
The concern of certain Paranormal Wikiproject members has been that we might start excising mythology and even religion from articles or including silly statements like "it is physically impossible for water to turn into wine" in every reporting of that particular story. I have to say that this is a ridiculous strawman argument. Religion has its place as religion and mythology has its place as mythology. What does get problematic is when editors use mythology or religious exceptionalism to make claims about material reality. For example, if an editor started an article on water into wine transformation and used the story from the gospels as material evidence for the veracity of this occurrence, this would be unencyclopedic. It is this kind of advocacy that is being resisted by myself and those who agree with me. A myth need not make any claims on material reality in point-of-fact, but as soon as it is identified as an accurate description of reality, it is necessary for us to evaluate whether the source is reliable enough to make such a claim and, if it isn't, whether reporting that claim should be done in light of the fact that the source isn't reliable. That's where mythology/religion crosses the boundary into fringe theories, and that's where science wakes up and takes notice. If the claim is notable, then there will surely be plenty of sources agreeing with it or disputing it. If there are no independent sources dealing with the claim, then it is questionable as to whether the claim should be in Wikipedia at all.
The issue is that many fringe claims about material reality are so obscure that no reliable sources about material reality (read scientific community) has taken note to discuss them. That's when deleting/excising becomes necessary in order to maintain the integrity of our encyclopedia. You can consider it an extention of no original research mixed with sourcing rules. The issue is that if all the sources possible about a subject are written by true believers, the idea does not meet the threshholds required for inclusion at Wikipedia. Independent notice of the idea is really all that is required. If none exists then removal of content is required. The burden of proof is on the person wanting to include the material, not on the person that wants to exclude it. If the person wanting to include this fringe claim can find an independent source that identifies the claim, then we can proceed in describing it. If not, then we have to consider it not encyclopedic. That's the trick: that's the thing that bugs the hell out of the Paranormalists, and it's the activity in which I engage for which I am most hated here.
ScienceApologist ( talk) 09:56, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
However, we are well aware of the notability guidelines, which you are in large part just repeating here. You confuse me on this issue, because the real issue is that there are issues with mainstream notice, thus notability, but no scientific refutation.
But, it isn't really the important thing- notability is not the question, and notability has not really caused any problems in the past.
You have yourself advocated that:
I think that it is not unreasonable to take every claim about observable reality that is contrary to science (no matter how small) and point out, plainly, that it is contrary to science.... Plainly stating this and referencing a standard text[book -MP] on the subject… ScienceApologist (this was about a movie review article) [14]
and
Editors who think that SPOV is somehow contrary to NPOV and use the religious exceptionalism argument haven't really thought through what exactly SPOV is. ScienceApologist [15]
So people can be forgiven for thinking you mean this.
Anyway, I really see no problems with notability- if it hasn't gained mainstream notice, just exclude it. The problem arises with the perspective from which we make the articles, and when the subject has notability, but no really scientific sources. In other words, the issue is really SPOV. If you ever need help deleting a non-notable article, just let me know, you are not using all your allies in this. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 21:03, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Overall, SA's post just above strikes me as worthy of a new section. SA said:
I never rejected Carroll as a source. I reject Carroll as a source for flat statements of fact. Perhaps you don't, but then you don't need sources for flat statements of fact [16].
Why mention irrelevant things?
Carroll will continue to be used as an excellent source for framing the skeptical opinion of notable nonsensical claims.
"He is someone we rely on heavily..." Who's this "we?"
Carroll is mainstream? No. Carroll is a hardened skeptic, and says himself that he is not mainstream. He also says he is biased, and doesn't even try to take a balanced view.
Carroll does not try for balance:
The reader is forewarned that The Skeptic’s Dictionary does not try to present a balanced account of occult subjects. [17]
Carroll is biased:
My beliefs are clearly that of a hardened skeptic. [18]
Carroll's online Skeptic's Dictionary (most often used here as a source) is a self-published personal website.
The main drawback is the one which comes from self-publishing. There is no peer or professional review process. [19]
This is just the kind of source that you would rain derision on if it wasn't in accordance with your POV. As Carroll says,
As already stated, the one group that this book is not designed for is that of the true believers. My studies have convinced me that arguments or data critical of their beliefs are always considered by the true believer to be insignificant, irrelevant, manipulative, deceptive, not authoritative, unscientific, unfair, biased, closed-minded, irrational, and/or diabolical. (It is perhaps worth noting that except for the term “diabolical,” these are the same terms some hardened skeptics use to describe the studies and evidence presented by true believers.) [20]
Indeed. Those are the words used for sources SA doesn't like. Heck, I saw the NIH and AMA described thus. SA's little post above is just the kind of thing I have to deal with all the time in fringe articles. It's why SPOV is dangerous to WP. Carroll is fine for a skeptical opinion. He is not very good as an RS:
"Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious..." [21]
—— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:09, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Thank you!! That is such a perfect statement. Please, everyone, note that there are a lot of editors who agree with ScienceApologist —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 23:21, 4 April 2008 (UTC)
Suggestions:
Suggestion 1:
Wikipedia must continue to build its descriptions of scientifically relevant reality without incorporating poor or fringe sources. Editors are expected to use only well-established sources speaking about standard theories of conventional science. In all articles which make claims about material reality, the group that has by far the most significant viewpoint and must be given the highest prominence in the article is the scientific community. last sentence paraphrased from here —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Suggestion 1:
WEIGHT and Notability are relative to the subject of the article. For example, just as Creationism is a notable minority view in Evolution, Evolution is a notable minority view in Creationism. Notable minority views must be mentioned to the extent that their position is understandable, but need not be explicated at length. Fringe sources, when properly attributed may be used in articles about fringe subjects. Mainstream science is a notable viewpoint when dealing with fringe views that make serious claims about material reality, and articles on fringe subjects must make appropriate reference to it. Also, fringe articles must not reflect an attempt to rewrite mainstream scientific content from the perspective of the fringe view. On the other hand, fringe topics are not written from the perspective of mainstream science, but should written with the tone that all positions presented are at least worthy of unbiased representation. (wording adapted from current NPOV article) —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 08:23, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
Note: This is a dissent to the whole concept of putting in a clause covering SPOV vs. NPOV. This debate doesn't belong in a policy. At best it belongs in an essay or guideline.
Call me a purest or minimalist, but Wikipedia already has excellent policies regarding neutrality and already addresses all of the above, "fairly represent all significant viewpoints" in "proportion to prominence". It doesn't need a clause regarding the scientific point of view and non-scientific point of view. Sometimes science is more prominent and sometimes it isn't... it's a case by case basis. On each topic editors must decide for themselves what is more prominent, and no other criteria beyond prominence matters except fairness. This is a "non-negotiable" policy, and it's meant to be simple and basic. The rest is regulated to guidelines and essays designed to help editors along, but provide no hard rules. You have groups of what I guess could be called "wiki-political" editors looking for sweeping changes to be made to policy so they can edit the way they want to. That's fine as far as guidelines go, but I'd like to see the fundamental policy of NPOV protected from them. This proposal should be moved to the WP:FRINGE guideline and away from the WP:NPOV policy. The basic fundamental policy that runs Wikipedia should be abstract and non-specific (especially on this politically charged topic). Of the Five Pillars of Wikipedia it is the only one that describes a "tone of voice". With the multitude of tones one can choose from, and the multitude of topics Wikipedia covers, I'd argue that the whole topic of SPOV vs. non-SPOV is not prominent enough to be covered in a basic fundamental policy that is meant to cover everything under the sun. I'm sure everyone who disagrees with me will say something along the lines of it's a make or break the project issue, but it's seriously not. -- Nealparr ( talk to me) 07:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)
As to whether I can summarize the situation neutrally, the answer is that you won't find anyone who stuck with it very long without being invested. That's why I gave quotes. —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
This is to everyone here, Wikipedia in general. We have a situation in fringe areas in which editors are (in their own words) promoting SPOV. There are other editors promoting other things. There are next to no editors who are not promoting anything. The policies are vague enough that each side can, without getting absolutely and completely caught, act as if their interpretation is obvious and correct. You have an ArbCom decision which fixed most of this being ignored and reviled [24].
I'm tired of fighting the good fight. I have tried my best to promote exactly the style and content recommended by DGG above. His an my position are exactly the same in terms of content. For this, I have gotten a reputation as a fringe POV pusher.
I mostly stopped editing, but tried for a while to influence things in a way which would try to resolve this situation. I mean what I say above: it doesn't matter what angle WP chooses. But pretending to be NPOV while actually being SPOV (which is what we're heading toward) or any other POV is a betrayal of the reader.
I hear from DGG, an SPOV advocate in his personal outlook (I mean that I believe his basic outlook is more or less that of conventional science): "what else can you expert? last thing I heard, we were edited by humans, which are known to have certain weaknesses -- as seen by the uninvolved --0when defending things they care about. The reason I stopped editing articles on evolution was the attitude of some other pro-evolution editors, who did not want the views of the other side presented as well as the could have been, and accused me of treason." His experience on Evolution is reflected in every fringe/paranormal article.
That is the situation. I have presented my best suggestion for improving the situation above. The only other possibility I know of would be if the community started acting like it really means the NPOV thing.
I don't hear much in the way of suggestions for fixing the problem. Almost the only creative suggestions I have heard are SPOV promoters trying to solidify their position [25].
The closest thing to a creative suggestion here was "You have groups of what I guess could be called "wiki-political" editors looking for sweeping changes to be made to policy so they can edit the way they want to. That's fine as far as guidelines go, but I'd like to see the fundamental policy of NPOV protected from them. This proposal should be moved to the WP:FRINGE guideline and away from the WP:NPOV policy." By Nealparr.
If anyone would like to help in some way, perhaps by formulating in FRINGE some change or other which might actually stick and help, let me know. I generally sense no interest. Otherwise, my work in WP is done. I might drop back once in a while to see the changes. Good luck being taken seriously while making unsourced or anti-sourced unscientific statements like this and this- the last being against the cited source. I could give many other examples, but they mainly involve bias created through WEIGHT or tone. Good luck making an NPOV, reliable encyclopedia when sources such as the NIH, the AMA and mainstream chemistry journals are rejected as basic sources for Homeopathy because they aren't SPOV enough.
The funny thing is, I am usually able to prevail where I try hard, because when my arguments are heard the NPOV editors from outside agree with me. But my efforts are overridden in the general fringe scheme, because I am alone there. Those who believe as I do, for instance such skeptics as Northmeister and DGG, and editors like Nealparr and jossi, and a few others, edit fringe articles very little or not at all. NPOV skeptical editors are traitors to the cause.
So- any suggestions? Anyone want to do anything? —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 04:31, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
I'm not opposed to an SPOV statement on Wikipedia, at least not in theory. Nor am I clamoring for one. However, I am opposed to this statement of SPOV. My reasons for opposing this particular approach have already been said by Nealparr and MastCell, particularly: (1) WP covers nonscience subjects; and (2) we aren't fully applying current policy, so we don't know if an SPOV statement would be helpful or necessary. If we successfully and consistently apply NPOV but still see areas that are problematic, then we will have a much better idea of what kind of SPOV policy, if any, would be helpful. Antelan talk 20:09, 2 April 2008 (UTC)
Anyway, Thanks for the responses. Can people brainstorm a bit to see how the problem might be solved, one way or another? —— Martinphi ☎ Ψ Φ—— 02:33, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
Where are you coming from here, Martinphi? One moment it sounds like you're arguing pro-SPOV the other pro-NPOV. Which is it? (I argue for pro-NPOV, by the way.) mike4ty4 ( talk) 02:31, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
I didn't read everything above but wanted to comment and get opinion. SPOV is NPOV when we are talking about such basic building blocks such as "1+1=2" and things that build on that. There is little disagreement on this and I doubt stating this in the NPOV summary would help much. Issues arise when trying to interpret science or apply it. Then SPOV is not NPOV. Example is Global warming, (very poor article in my opinion). For articles that have a raw science and technology to them, such as nuclear power it would be good to keep POV out of the article and just talk about raw science, hopefully undisputed science. POV issues either positive or negative should become mostly subarticles. What do you think? Daniel.Cardenas ( talk) 19:32, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
Science most certainly has a POV (usually materialist and empirical). The assertion that science, as a whole pursuit and as a collection of individual disciplines, has no point of view is as much pseudo-philosophy as the study of productive cold fusion using kitchen sink battery cells is pseudo-science. Vassyana ( talk) 01:30, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
POV is the bane of many a history-related article here, and not just because of contentions between Wikipedia's editors. The religious encyclopedias that have provided information for numerous articles are copious with POV backing the sponsoring religions (Catholic Encyclopedia, Jewish Encyclopedia, etc.). — Rickyrab | Talk 16:57, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
{{ sofixit}} :) Vassyana ( talk) 15:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
I have been developing Fiador (tack) to make it global. This has produced objections from other editors who seem to think the English wikipedia should address this topic only as it is known (and called "fiador") by English speakers. See Talk:Fiador (tack). In short, the other editors seem to be advocating a preference for POV bias along language lines. Has this issue emerged before, and if so where is it discussed and what was the outcome? -- Una Smith ( talk) 05:51, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
There is more of this meta-discussion here. -- Una Smith ( talk) 06:39, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
Two or more possibilities should not be averaged together, they should be thought of separately and distinctly. Including all points of view should be encouraged as long as editors follow the concept of neutral presentation. If someone is truly open to the possibilities their beliefs/opinions are wrong or incomplete then they will present their views neutrally. Convergence Dude ( talk) 16:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Hello, there is a naming dispute at the China article. User:SchmuckyTheCat altered one of the rules here in order to help out his viewpoint (at 3:43 May 12). Just wanted to bring that to everyone's attention. I wanted some discussion of whether such a change in policies should be implentmented. T-1000 ( talk) 11:09, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
I made a non-controversial change, except this user is purposefully mis-reading the policy and my change stops allowing his loophole. Here is the diff: [26].
The policy has three paragraphs on naming conflicts, and specifically defers summary style to WP:Naming conflict. The second paragraph summarizes policy on naming conflicts with descriptive names: the problems we have with article titles like Allegations of state terrorism by the United States which have resulted in deletion and move wars forEVAR. The third paragraph summarizes policy on proper nouns: titles like China and Bill Clinton.
Because there are contradictory ways of handling the two types of article titles, there are slightly different policies in play. T-1000 is misquoting the descriptive summary in an argument about proper nouns in order to create an NPOV conflict where there isn't one. All my change does is make it explicit that the second paragraph is talking about descriptive article titles, something that was already implicit by all the examples used. Since this paragraph is also a summary of part of naming conflict, the change is a more accurate summary and reconciliation between the two. SchmuckyTheCat ( talk)
What if an NPOV prohibited word such as "propaganda" is accurate within a definition? For example, I tried to specifically note in the scientific racism article that that phrase is used as an accusation of alleged propaganda but someone reverted it claiming the word "propaganda" is NPOV, this seems wrong. I have appropriately caveatted the use of "propaganda" with "alleged" I believe. It seems odd that the claim of a neutrality violation can be used to prevent increased accuracy within an article. Definition wise within Wikipedia how should someone go about describing possible or an accusation of propaganda as possible propaganda? Convergence Dude ( talk) 01:02, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe it to be a fact that the phrase "scientific racism" is used as an accusation that a publication or something is allegedly racist propaganda. Though I agree the phrase has other contradictory definitions and I noted as such in my changes to scientific racism that were reverted, shouldn't we specifically note that the phrase "scientific racism" has contradictory uses and definitions? A wikipedia article should present all viewpoints, including the critical viewpoint, consensus does not mean average (especially when there are 2 contradictory definitions involved). Convergence Dude ( talk) 05:30, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Is anyone going to respond directly to my question of whether "propaganda" might be ok when used caveatted inside a definition as in: "One among multiple definitions of the phrase scientific racism is describing alleged propaganda masquerading as scientific research"? Has anyone taken a look at scientific racism? Convergence Dude ( talk) 20:11, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
A previous talk page alleged "consensus" is not an automatic justification for a revert, you have to actually indicate the specifics of why you think someone's changes are wrong. Wikipedia has warped the fundamental concept of consensus, consensus means everyone and does not mean average nor majority, if just one person disagrees you no longer have a consensus by its true definition. Convergence Dude ( talk) 17:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
see_also_uw
was invoked but never defined (see the
help page).