This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | → | Archive 35 |
I recently came across the disambiguation page, USS Monongahela and saw that it apparently did not conform to the disambog MOS, so I edited it to conform.
However, after visiting the page List of United States Navy ships, M and visiting the disambiguation pages of other ships, I see that most of those pages (such as USS Macdonough) also do not conform to the disambig MOS.
Question: Do ship disambiguation pages conform to a different set of criteria? If so, I will revert my changes. If not, then there are many non-conforming pages.
Thanks, Gjs238 14:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes there's some confusion about whether a particular article is just a random list or a disambiguation. It seems like the primary difference is whether backlinks need to be disambiguated. An ambiguous term will collect accidental backlinks that need to be updated to point to one of the items on the list; a non-disambiguation list doesn't accumulate accidental links, and therefore its backlinks will never be corrected. If there's agreement on this, I'd like to update the main page to clarify this.
An example... C and D both have long lists of meanings at the bottom, but they also have separate disambiguation pages. Some of the entries on the list are disambiguatable, and they get copied to both places, while the non-disambig entries get mentioned only in the list. -- Interiot 17:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the purpose of a disambiguation page? I was under the impression that it was to aid in navigation, in the case that the general term is linked in an article where it should go to a more specific article. Like where an editor links to "the pirates", but forgets to say the "Pittsburg Pirates." Some editors feel it should be an aid to browsing, where the DAB page should list any possible usage of the term (like, say, "Terry and the Pirates"). Just in case someone would be looking for a thing with "pirate" in the title.
Is there a consensus on this issue? - Freekee 06:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
You might be interested in my proposal to cut down on repeated newbie mistakes with disambig pages at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Proposed_disambiguation_guidance.
(Can we keep the discussion over there, in one place? Thanks!)
Fourohfour 16:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Urgh, any opinions on List of London bombings which is tagged as a dabpage? Thanks/ wangi 21:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I have made one edit containing two unrelated suggestions. Abtract 09:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a proposal to merge Johnson and Johnson (disambiguation) which you may wish to comment on here. CarolGray 19:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
In accordance with the following recommendation
and with the examples in the People section, I think this could be added (just after the recommendation quoted above)
I'm under the impression that this is already intended and that I'm just spelling it out, but I thought to ask :-) Also I think MoS is better edited by native speakers, so I'd prefer someone else than me to actually insert the new text (possibly shortening it a bit :-)). — Gennaro Prota •Talk 19:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
In considering that sometimes such entries are placed on the page by people that include everything for the sake of it, and that sometimes such entries are placed on the page for no real reason at all, I propose that in section 5.1 "Examples of individual entries that should not be created", after the text:
that the following text be appended:
with or without further elaboration, or words to the same effect.
The idea is that where such an entry is deemed necessary, that and the reason is made clear so that someone else doesn't come along thinking it's been included just for the sake of it.
Please feel free to comment. Neonumbers 08:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It's been one week. Any other comments? If no objections on or before 18 December 2006 (UTC), I'll add that sentence. Neonumbers 02:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi. There's a disambiguation page at Passage, and there are three articles that could be intended by The Passage — the St. Petersburg department store, The Passage (band) and The Passage (Battlestar Galactica). (There's also apparently a film starring James Mason, but it doesn't have a page yet.) Right now, a hatnote at The Passage directs readers towards the band's page, but there's nothing for the other meanings of "The Passage". Should a separate dab page be created at The Passage (disambiguation), or should the hatnote at The Passage point towards the general dab page Passage?
I couldn't find any advice on what to do in a case like this in the guideline — should something be added? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to request feedback on Robert Johnson. I like the way it has evolved. I have tried to format other dab pages like and have been contested by other editors on the see also section. The major points of contestation are the propriety of including the surname and the list of names in the see also section. I think in Human name dabs these should be standard and this dab makes it clear why. If people agree, I would even like to note such a belief on the MOSDAB page itself. TonyTheTiger 22:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I think Robert Johnson looks very good. I've made some trivial punctuation changes. Of course, the incoming links need to be fixed since this may reveal some more Robert Johnsons who should be added. Then I would be happy to see this quoted on the Mos:DAB as an example to follow. One small query - in the example at section 7, Longer lists, we've got a slightly different style of subheading:
In science:
whereas in Robert Johnson we have:
I think we should choose one or the other and be consistent about it. CarolGray 20:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The principle we had in mind when designed the original manual is that disambiguation pages are to be consistent in format, simple, and short. My fear is that a lengthy see also section would compromise the shortness. Even though the important stuff is upfront and the other stuff is out of the way, the increased length of the page still creates extra content that, in a navigational aid, is best avoided.
With the order of entries, it's not on the manual, but that's intended mainly for things rather than people. Shouldn't apply to people dab pages, because (in theory) all entries on a people (First Last) dab page should be "First Last (clarifier)". The purpose of that suggested order is so that the disambiguating words line up nicely in one line, which make the target page easier to pick out, like this (made up with bogus descriptions):
|
compared to |
|
While it's normally (hopefully) also the order of importance (common usage), where it isn't, order of importance takes precedence over that order. The idea is that a scan of the page is sufficient, rather than having to read what's on the page. The reason I said that extra content is best avoided (above) is that, the more content, the harder the page is to scan—even if the unimportant stuff's at the bottom and clearly separated, it still makes it harder to skim through quickly. Maybe it's distracting, maybe it's just the idea of looking at a longer page (with a shorter scroll bar), but whatever it is, it means that the time spent on the dab page is longer.
This is why we strongly discourage extraneous links. It does involve a certain degree of, well, un-sympathy for those that don't quite know the name of what they're looking for, but that's what search engines are for. We allow for confusion, but not stupidity. It's a very subjective area, and certainly a gray area (and possibly insulting), but that's the idea (if not guideline). Just because Target Page has Disambiguation Page within its title, it doesn't make it suitable for inclusion. You seem to already understand all of that, for the "normal" section, anyway.
Historically (from what I've seen), dab pages almost never have a see also section, and my reasoning for generally discouraging see also sections is that they make the page longer and therefore harder to skim through, and the consequences, benefits and costs, as far as I can see are similar to having them in the main section.
As a sidenote, if "Robbie Johnston" was also known as "Roberto Johnston", then yes, that would merit inclusion. Sorry my post was so long. Neonumbers 02:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Currently, about 90% of the various 2LC dab pages use upper case for both letters; the remaining 10% use upper then lower. I'd like to see this standardised to both upper and have commented to such effect at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Standardisation of names of two-letter combination pages. Please comment there if you wish to voice an opinion! Grutness... wha? 12:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Above I asked about Surname and List of People by name dabs. I was referring to the first 3 surname letters for the latter.
However, I am wondering whether First name dabs or first name articles should be in the see also section. E.G., should August Busch have both links to August and Busch in the see also section or just the latter TonyTheTiger 22:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to bring attention to the two bullet points the section "The 'See also' section":
whilst considering the basic principle on Wikipedia:Disambiguation:
The "see also" section should be very, very rarely used — when we created this page, "see also" sections on disambiguation pages were almost unheard of, and we certainly didn't intend for that to change, and we really only intended it for misspellings, as outlined in the last two bullet points of that section. The intention at the time was that there should virtually never be more than one or two entries in it. Paraphrased, the "see also" section was intended to be part of the navigational aid, where people were wrong (wrong, not insufficient) in what they were looking for, so we directed them to the right place.
Most of us will know what the guideline prior to this was, so I won't need to explain what it is in further detail than that such entries were generally to be avoided. There was a reason for this, and that reason was the same reason the above guideline from Wikipedia:Disambigation exists: the page should be as short and simple as possible, having only what is necessary and directing the user intuitively to the right place. This principle also applies to the see also section, because it is still part of the page.
For this reason, I would suggest (not propose yet) that those two bullet points both be removed, with allowances for exceptional cases.
I have read the discussions leading to the addition of those two bullets, but I haven't figured out why the given name provision needs to be there. For the surname provision, although it is reasonable to expect some users to know the surname but not the given, I feel that the List of people by name exists for this purpose, which of course implies that a link there (from the see also section) is necessary: entering a surname only is not "ambiguous" such that there is "risk of confusion"; rather, it is insufficient information for us to direct the user directly to the right article.
I've said this in other discussions above, but that was before I realised the guidelines had changed. I know I'm being a little nostalgic (being someone that's been in this for a long time), but I hope either that I can gain a better understanding of the rationale for those changes, or that we can discuss this again. No rush — have a break over Christmas/New Year if we want before we go deeply into it. Neonumbers 04:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I recently moved the page "Comment (computer programming)" to "Comment (computer language)". The reason is that comments are supported in pretty much all computer languages, not only the programming ones (e.g. in HTML). I was going to fix all resulting double-redirects when this doubt occurred to me: should it be "(computer language)" or "(computer languages)"? This doesn't seem to be covered in the manual, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. BTW, comments are generally allowed in configuration files too, for instance, so it seems that we have another specific problem: "computer languages" is too narrow, "computing" is too wide. Do we have a standard practice for similar issues? Thanks, Gennaro Prota •Talk 23:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 25 | ← | Archive 27 | Archive 28 | Archive 29 | Archive 30 | Archive 31 | → | Archive 35 |
I recently came across the disambiguation page, USS Monongahela and saw that it apparently did not conform to the disambog MOS, so I edited it to conform.
However, after visiting the page List of United States Navy ships, M and visiting the disambiguation pages of other ships, I see that most of those pages (such as USS Macdonough) also do not conform to the disambig MOS.
Question: Do ship disambiguation pages conform to a different set of criteria? If so, I will revert my changes. If not, then there are many non-conforming pages.
Thanks, Gjs238 14:48, 31 October 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes there's some confusion about whether a particular article is just a random list or a disambiguation. It seems like the primary difference is whether backlinks need to be disambiguated. An ambiguous term will collect accidental backlinks that need to be updated to point to one of the items on the list; a non-disambiguation list doesn't accumulate accidental links, and therefore its backlinks will never be corrected. If there's agreement on this, I'd like to update the main page to clarify this.
An example... C and D both have long lists of meanings at the bottom, but they also have separate disambiguation pages. Some of the entries on the list are disambiguatable, and they get copied to both places, while the non-disambig entries get mentioned only in the list. -- Interiot 17:16, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
What's the purpose of a disambiguation page? I was under the impression that it was to aid in navigation, in the case that the general term is linked in an article where it should go to a more specific article. Like where an editor links to "the pirates", but forgets to say the "Pittsburg Pirates." Some editors feel it should be an aid to browsing, where the DAB page should list any possible usage of the term (like, say, "Terry and the Pirates"). Just in case someone would be looking for a thing with "pirate" in the title.
Is there a consensus on this issue? - Freekee 06:39, 6 November 2006 (UTC)
You might be interested in my proposal to cut down on repeated newbie mistakes with disambig pages at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#Proposed_disambiguation_guidance.
(Can we keep the discussion over there, in one place? Thanks!)
Fourohfour 16:56, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Urgh, any opinions on List of London bombings which is tagged as a dabpage? Thanks/ wangi 21:58, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I have made one edit containing two unrelated suggestions. Abtract 09:30, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
There is a proposal to merge Johnson and Johnson (disambiguation) which you may wish to comment on here. CarolGray 19:43, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
In accordance with the following recommendation
and with the examples in the People section, I think this could be added (just after the recommendation quoted above)
I'm under the impression that this is already intended and that I'm just spelling it out, but I thought to ask :-) Also I think MoS is better edited by native speakers, so I'd prefer someone else than me to actually insert the new text (possibly shortening it a bit :-)). — Gennaro Prota •Talk 19:38, 6 December 2006 (UTC)
In considering that sometimes such entries are placed on the page by people that include everything for the sake of it, and that sometimes such entries are placed on the page for no real reason at all, I propose that in section 5.1 "Examples of individual entries that should not be created", after the text:
that the following text be appended:
with or without further elaboration, or words to the same effect.
The idea is that where such an entry is deemed necessary, that and the reason is made clear so that someone else doesn't come along thinking it's been included just for the sake of it.
Please feel free to comment. Neonumbers 08:03, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
It's been one week. Any other comments? If no objections on or before 18 December 2006 (UTC), I'll add that sentence. Neonumbers 02:30, 14 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi. There's a disambiguation page at Passage, and there are three articles that could be intended by The Passage — the St. Petersburg department store, The Passage (band) and The Passage (Battlestar Galactica). (There's also apparently a film starring James Mason, but it doesn't have a page yet.) Right now, a hatnote at The Passage directs readers towards the band's page, but there's nothing for the other meanings of "The Passage". Should a separate dab page be created at The Passage (disambiguation), or should the hatnote at The Passage point towards the general dab page Passage?
I couldn't find any advice on what to do in a case like this in the guideline — should something be added? — Josiah Rowe ( talk • contribs) 04:37, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to request feedback on Robert Johnson. I like the way it has evolved. I have tried to format other dab pages like and have been contested by other editors on the see also section. The major points of contestation are the propriety of including the surname and the list of names in the see also section. I think in Human name dabs these should be standard and this dab makes it clear why. If people agree, I would even like to note such a belief on the MOSDAB page itself. TonyTheTiger 22:34, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
I think Robert Johnson looks very good. I've made some trivial punctuation changes. Of course, the incoming links need to be fixed since this may reveal some more Robert Johnsons who should be added. Then I would be happy to see this quoted on the Mos:DAB as an example to follow. One small query - in the example at section 7, Longer lists, we've got a slightly different style of subheading:
In science:
whereas in Robert Johnson we have:
I think we should choose one or the other and be consistent about it. CarolGray 20:22, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
The principle we had in mind when designed the original manual is that disambiguation pages are to be consistent in format, simple, and short. My fear is that a lengthy see also section would compromise the shortness. Even though the important stuff is upfront and the other stuff is out of the way, the increased length of the page still creates extra content that, in a navigational aid, is best avoided.
With the order of entries, it's not on the manual, but that's intended mainly for things rather than people. Shouldn't apply to people dab pages, because (in theory) all entries on a people (First Last) dab page should be "First Last (clarifier)". The purpose of that suggested order is so that the disambiguating words line up nicely in one line, which make the target page easier to pick out, like this (made up with bogus descriptions):
|
compared to |
|
While it's normally (hopefully) also the order of importance (common usage), where it isn't, order of importance takes precedence over that order. The idea is that a scan of the page is sufficient, rather than having to read what's on the page. The reason I said that extra content is best avoided (above) is that, the more content, the harder the page is to scan—even if the unimportant stuff's at the bottom and clearly separated, it still makes it harder to skim through quickly. Maybe it's distracting, maybe it's just the idea of looking at a longer page (with a shorter scroll bar), but whatever it is, it means that the time spent on the dab page is longer.
This is why we strongly discourage extraneous links. It does involve a certain degree of, well, un-sympathy for those that don't quite know the name of what they're looking for, but that's what search engines are for. We allow for confusion, but not stupidity. It's a very subjective area, and certainly a gray area (and possibly insulting), but that's the idea (if not guideline). Just because Target Page has Disambiguation Page within its title, it doesn't make it suitable for inclusion. You seem to already understand all of that, for the "normal" section, anyway.
Historically (from what I've seen), dab pages almost never have a see also section, and my reasoning for generally discouraging see also sections is that they make the page longer and therefore harder to skim through, and the consequences, benefits and costs, as far as I can see are similar to having them in the main section.
As a sidenote, if "Robbie Johnston" was also known as "Roberto Johnston", then yes, that would merit inclusion. Sorry my post was so long. Neonumbers 02:24, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Currently, about 90% of the various 2LC dab pages use upper case for both letters; the remaining 10% use upper then lower. I'd like to see this standardised to both upper and have commented to such effect at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions#Standardisation of names of two-letter combination pages. Please comment there if you wish to voice an opinion! Grutness... wha? 12:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Above I asked about Surname and List of People by name dabs. I was referring to the first 3 surname letters for the latter.
However, I am wondering whether First name dabs or first name articles should be in the see also section. E.G., should August Busch have both links to August and Busch in the see also section or just the latter TonyTheTiger 22:52, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to bring attention to the two bullet points the section "The 'See also' section":
whilst considering the basic principle on Wikipedia:Disambiguation:
The "see also" section should be very, very rarely used — when we created this page, "see also" sections on disambiguation pages were almost unheard of, and we certainly didn't intend for that to change, and we really only intended it for misspellings, as outlined in the last two bullet points of that section. The intention at the time was that there should virtually never be more than one or two entries in it. Paraphrased, the "see also" section was intended to be part of the navigational aid, where people were wrong (wrong, not insufficient) in what they were looking for, so we directed them to the right place.
Most of us will know what the guideline prior to this was, so I won't need to explain what it is in further detail than that such entries were generally to be avoided. There was a reason for this, and that reason was the same reason the above guideline from Wikipedia:Disambigation exists: the page should be as short and simple as possible, having only what is necessary and directing the user intuitively to the right place. This principle also applies to the see also section, because it is still part of the page.
For this reason, I would suggest (not propose yet) that those two bullet points both be removed, with allowances for exceptional cases.
I have read the discussions leading to the addition of those two bullets, but I haven't figured out why the given name provision needs to be there. For the surname provision, although it is reasonable to expect some users to know the surname but not the given, I feel that the List of people by name exists for this purpose, which of course implies that a link there (from the see also section) is necessary: entering a surname only is not "ambiguous" such that there is "risk of confusion"; rather, it is insufficient information for us to direct the user directly to the right article.
I've said this in other discussions above, but that was before I realised the guidelines had changed. I know I'm being a little nostalgic (being someone that's been in this for a long time), but I hope either that I can gain a better understanding of the rationale for those changes, or that we can discuss this again. No rush — have a break over Christmas/New Year if we want before we go deeply into it. Neonumbers 04:13, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
Hi guys,
I recently moved the page "Comment (computer programming)" to "Comment (computer language)". The reason is that comments are supported in pretty much all computer languages, not only the programming ones (e.g. in HTML). I was going to fix all resulting double-redirects when this doubt occurred to me: should it be "(computer language)" or "(computer languages)"? This doesn't seem to be covered in the manual, but I'd be happy to be proven wrong. BTW, comments are generally allowed in configuration files too, for instance, so it seems that we have another specific problem: "computer languages" is too narrow, "computing" is too wide. Do we have a standard practice for similar issues? Thanks, Gennaro Prota •Talk 23:40, 24 December 2006 (UTC)