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Over the years, we have floated various rules and guidelines regarding citation of events, facts and notability, and now that we have this Task Force in place I think it is time to establish a clear set of "ok" and "not ok" sources to use in articles. In particular, this would look at websites such as the infamous Survivor Sucks site, which admittedly is a spoiler site, but does churn out some interesting discussion at times. Some of this discussion has managed to find its way onto Wikipedia (see Talk:Jonathan Penner), and is being cited by anonymous and registered users alike as gospel truth (pun intended, if you read the talk page in question). Having this Manual of Style would allow us to straight off the mark say that, "no, we cannot have this per WP:MOS/Survivor..." instead of endlessly debating the notability of supposed events. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 09:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I know how clogging the sections are. Palau's takes a big deal of room! If we could make them less clogging or get rid of them, we'd have better articles. I might take the lists on. I've gotta see how clogging they are. MySurvivorPartay ( talk) 01:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
0
This one's good! Done
Shapiros10
Came Back!
11:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Did I get kicked out of this Task Force?Stjimmy61892 15:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Partway through China, Masem and Gogo Dodo (among others) worked on a new format for episode summaries that has been implemented for that season and Micronesia. I think we should look at converting the other seasons' pages into this format as well so we can have some consistency; what do you guys think? (EDIT) also perhaps go on CBS websites and put episode summaries in for the first (I think) eleven seasons, which don't have them.-- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 08:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Two contestant templates are up for deletion. If you feel so inclined, add your comments to the discussions here and the one below it. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 07:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Isn't Sole Survivor a title, thus it must be capitalized. Who agrees? From Tagi to Bottom, My Survivor Partay ( Wobbuffet!. Dats right) 00:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Should the standard be for the challenge descriptions to go before the description of events in the episode summaries or after? China has them at the end of each episode summary while Micronesia and Gabon have them at the beginning.
My preference is the end. The challenges just don't seem to be as important as the overall events. -- Bull Wiki Winkle 00:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
OK... Having settled the placement of challenge descriptions, I now notice that the descriptions of rewards aren't very unified. Some start with 'The winning tribe [gets|wins|will win|etc.]', whereas some just give a list of items or a simple description of the reward.
I think it's overkill to write a full sentence for each one. How about standardizing on just a simple list of items or description (for trips and such)? -- Bull Wiki Winkle 02:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and done this for China, Micronesia, and Gabon. -- Bull Wiki Winkle 18:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
{{ User:The dark lord trombonator/WPST}}
I'm not sure how many of you actually check this page.... but I'll post anyway. I'm in the process of creating a template to go on the top of talk pages, similar to
Template:WPHP (despite me being a complete n00b when it comes to templating. It's in a subpage of mine,
User:The dark lord trombonator/WPST; feel free to check it out and give feedback. I'd post an example of what it looks like, but somehow all text after it gets stuck inside the box, so check it out at the talk page of the sub above. All help is welcome, thanks! -- THE
DARK LORD
TROMBONATOR
06:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Twila Tanner AfD currently running. Nom says delete per WP:1E and I would tend to agree. If you feel differently, make your voice heard. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 01:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the Borneo talk page where some changes to the current layout of Survivor articles are being proposed. If you have an opinion, you may want to weigh in. -- Bull Wiki Winkle 00:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
So I'm planning on further expanding as many Survivor seasons as I can. I started with Survivor: Borneo. It is currently up for peer review, and as I was waiting to move it, three editors approached me about being bold and just moving it. All three and myself believe it is much much nicer, and cleaner. My next project will be Survivor: All Stars, once Borneo is done (probably). Look for Boreno to be at FAC in a week or two.
Also, I'd like to re-design this project. What about making this it's own project for starts, instead of a "Task Force"? Thoughts? iMatthew 18:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I have a bunch of problems about tribe colors in the season articles; as in, a lot of them are very inaccurate and not even close. Should I do anything about that, other than bring it up (for a third time in Borneo I might add) in the Talk sections? Stjimmy61892 ( talk) 19:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The color edit wars are becoming tiresome. One possible way to at least contain the warring would be to create a tribe color template, which specifies the background and text color when fed a particular tribe name. If there is any interest, I can make something up. It would basically be a big switch statement which returns a style statement for the particular tribe name. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 23:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
<span>...</span>
tag.
Plastikspork
―Œ(talk)
03:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
<span>...</span>
. The idea is to reduce the specification of the colors to a single template, to avoid redundancy and possible inconsistency. Thanks!
Plastikspork
―Œ(talk)
18:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I moved it to {{ stribe}}, but I am somewhat indifferent to the actual name. I figured this was short. I am also somewhat indifferent to the name of {{ stribe/color}} and {{ stribe/name}}. This one could be longer since it will most likely won't be used directly. The color template can be used to make a color box as well (see the source code for {{ colorbox}}). Any preference for the name for this? It could also be a bit longer since it won't be used too repetitively. One obvious suggestion would be {{ survivor colorbox}}? Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 05:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Talk:Survivor: Samoa#Voting history regarding a new voting history format. Cheers, -- Meäghân talk 21:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Questions about sourcing and content of episode summaries have been posed here, which was started after this post. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
So, we now have {{Survivorwinners}}
and {{
Survivor contestants}} and succession boxes? This seems like a bit much, so I have nominated Survivor winners for deletion
here. Thanks!
Plastikspork
―Œ(talk)
22:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
A while ago, standardized widths became the standard for the "The game" table. I don't see why we shouldn't implement them into the "Contestants" table for the tribe columns. On some seasons, especially Gabon, the tribe columns' widths aren't even. I've created a new version of the Gabon table using the proposed standardized width (85px) here. Thoughts? -- Meaghan :) ≈ 14:43, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure how many people monitor WP:MOSTV or even WP:TV (the basic WikiProject for all of us), but we've been trying to get some feedback on additions to the TV Manual of Style. It largely has to do with the inclusion of "Overview" tables at the start of the page, the order in which season lists are presented (currently, there is no concrete order), and what is considered too much info for DVDs (i.e. should we be placing every detail about the box set in the article, from each interview to the aspect ratio, or should be keep it more generalized). Please see discussion at WT:MOSTV#Updates to the MOS. Thank you. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Whoever created it... I have no idea. I have seen no mention of proposals for it, it's totally unnecessary IMO, and no one has gotten rid of it yet. I'm going to get rid of them because it's on the first three seasons. If you disagree just revert the edit. Stjimmy61892 ( talk) 18:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
does Survivor stats violate WP:NOSTATS and WP:OR? Frietjes ( talk) 21:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
It makes no sense that the names in the Finalist row are don't match the order of total votes in the Votes cell that immediately follows, nor do the vote totals correspond to the rows of votes that follow that cell. In the following partial example from Survivor: Samoa, I've added the ranking to the contestant's name in that row to show how they are misaligned with the vote totals:
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Finalist | Mick (3d) | Russell H. (2d) | Natalie (won) |
Votes | 7–2–0 |
Apparently all of the season articles do it this way, and in my opinion, all of the articles are wrong. I was not able to find any old discussions that established a consensus for the jury vote table to list contestants in 3-2-1 position (left to right) and vote totals in 1-2-3 position. It's possible one person put it backwards and the other articles copied it, I don't know. But I cannot think of any plausible justification for this oddity.
Propose listing vote totals in the jury vote table in each Survivor season article in the same order as the finalists. Discussion?
This project appears to be dormant, so I will notify Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Reality television task force and the talk pages for each Survivor season in order to reach interested editors.
Schazjmd (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Finalists | Natalie (won) | Russell H. (2d) | Mick (3d) |
Votes | 7–2–0 |
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Votes | 7–2–0 | ||
Finalists | Natalie (won) | Russell H. (2d) | Mick (3d) |
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Finalist | Natalie | Russell H. | Mick |
Votes | 7–2–0 | ||
Juror | Votes | ||
Brett | Natalie | ||
Jaison | Natalie | ||
Shambo | Russell H. | ||
Monica | Natalie | ||
Dave | Natalie | ||
John | Russell H. | ||
Laura | Natalie | ||
Kelly | Natalie | ||
Erik | Natalie |
I have begun to make the change of corresponding the vote counts in the jury vote table to the finalists who received the votes, placing the winner on the left and runner(s)-up on the right. Right now, I'm focusing on the first 12 seasons, when it was just a final two and seven on the jury, and only rearranging the columns. As far as the changing of the colors of the jurors and going with boldface, it might be better to wait for further discussion. MPFitz1968 ( talk) 06:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Decided to do the same for seasons 16 (Micronesia) and 28 (Cagayan), with those being the only other two seasons with a final two. MPFitz1968 ( talk) 07:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television § Standardized terms for elimination-style reality program progress tables. –
Novem Linguae (
talk)
04:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi all, I recently started watching the Survivor series for the first time (I'm onto series 12 now, started watching at the start of the month), and I'm thinking I could start taking some of the series articles through the WP:GA process. I started looking at Survivor: Borneo and there's a few things that should probably be mentioned here, as if these changes were made, the articles would be a template and other articles would likely pass a GAN review. I have done a bit of a copy edit of what is already there.
First, I'm going to put in a overview section. A bit about how the Survivor game is played, basic rules (votes, castaways having to forage for food etc) as well as the structure, television rights, etc. This would be combined into the production section, or production would be a subsection of overview. I'll get to work on an example soon, as something like this could be unilaterally applied to all of the series, with some expansion for the newer rules, such as Immunity idols or whatever the new thing is.
Second, we really need to cut down the amount of tables that are duplicates of others. The "Challenge winners and eliminations by episode" table is simply the same info as the "episodes" list. The only additional info this table has is who wins the immunity and reward tasks. This could either be in prose in the episode list, or just removed altogether. We aren't a respository of information, this seems pretty WP:CRUFTy to me. The "CBS Recap" external links should really be culled - it's not particularly enclyopedic, especially as they are currently deadlinks.
The colours used in the tables also need to be changed. Currently they don't meet WP:ACCESS. I'd recommend using set colours rather than tribe colours, or use †, ‡ etc to denote which tribes a participant was on.
I'll make some changes over the coming days, but just a heads up on this. If there are any suggestions to make these changes meet the policies better, please let me know. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
On this, I've done some changes to the article, and whilst I do have some general misgivings to {{ stribe}}, they don't completely fall foul of MOS:COLOR other than in the Voting History. Colour should only be used to make things easier to read, and never be used to denote information on its own (with also WP:ACCESS issues). Whilst I'd like to remove all of the colours from the Voting history section, at the very least, the opening column is particularly bad. May I suggest the below. The jury is almost always made up of a merged tribe, so the colours there are completey useless. If we did use this, I'd also want to use some !scope fields to meet our screen reader needs. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 11:33, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
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Although I see where Lee Vilenski is coming from (with the tables being against MOS), there are certain tribes (like Tavua in Game Changers or Yanuya in Ghost Island) that don't attend Tribal Council because they win immunity. Therefore, if they're removing the tribe-colored section from the "Voter" portion of the table, then there's no way to tell in which tribe each contestant was a part of, unless you return to the Contestant section of the page, which I think would be quite tedious.
Here's an idea of what I had in mind for this "new format".
Take the green-colored Tavua tribe into consideration: considering they never went to any of the three post-swap Tribal Councils, if the color portion is taken out of the "Voter" column, you could only verify which tribe they belonged to if you have to go look at the Contestants' section. This is what I'd suggest instead: keep the colors (without adding any text to them) and add a new column to specify the name of the Voter.
P.S.: I even have some other suggestions when it comes to the tables, such as font size (which should be smaller), jury vote (which should also probably be added above instead of in a separate table), etc.
Original tribes | First swap | Second swap | Merged tribe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | ||||||||||||||||
Day # | 3 | 6 | 9 | 11 [a] | 13 | 16 | 18 | 21 | 24 | 26 | 29 | 32 | 33 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | |||||||||||
Eliminated | Ciera | Tony | Caleb | Malcolm | J.T. | Sandra | Jeff | Hali | Ozzy | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Michaela | None | Cirie | Aubry | Tai | ||||||||||
Votes | 9–1 | 7–2 | 5–1 | 5–0 [b] | 3–2 | 5–2 | 6–0 [c] | 7–3–2–1 | 7–4–1–1 | 6–5 | 5–3–2 | 6–3 | 6–2 | 4–2–1 | 0–0–0 [d] | Default [d] | 4–1 | 3–1 | ||||||||||
Voter | Vote | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sarah | Sandra | Jeff | Debbie | Ozzy | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Michaela | Michaela [e] | Immune | Aubry | Tai | |||||||||||||||
Brad | Caleb | Malcolm | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Tai | Andrea | Andrea | Michaela | Immune | Aubry | Tai | ||||||||||||||||
Troyzan | Ciera | Tony | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Tai | Andrea | Andrea | Michaela | Immune | Aubry | Tai | ||||||||||||||||
Tai | Caleb | Malcolm | Sandra | Jeff | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Cirie | Sierra | Andrea | None [e] | Immune | Aubry | Troyzan | ||||||||||||||
Aubry | Ciera | Tony | Michaela | Hali | Zeke | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Brad | Tai | Immune | Troyzan | ||||||||||||||||
Cirie | Michaela | Sierra | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Aubry | Eliminated | ||||||||||||||||||||
Michaela | Ciera | Tony | J.T. | Zeke | Zeke | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Tai | ||||||||||||||||||
Andrea | Sandra | Jeff | Michaela | Zeke | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Brad | ||||||||||||||||||||
Sierra | Caleb | Malcolm | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Tai | Andrea | |||||||||||||||||||||
Zeke | Sandra | Jeff | Michaela | Aubry | Debbie | Cirie | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Debbie | Caleb | Malcolm | Exiled [f] | Jeff | Hali | Ozzy | Ozzy [g] | Sarah | ||||||||||||||||||||
Ozzy | Sandra | Jeff | Hali | Zeke | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hali | Ciera | Tony | Caleb | Malcolm | Zeke | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Jeff | Ciera | Tony | J.T. | Sarah | None [c] | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Sandra | Ciera | Aubry | J.T. | Sarah | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
J.T. | Michaela | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Malcolm | Ciera | Tony | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Caleb | Ciera | Tony | Hali | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tony | Ciera | Aubry | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ciera | Michaela |
Jury vote<ref name="Eldridge Industries"/> | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 13 | |||
Day # | 39 | |||
Finalist | Sarah | Brad | Troyzan | |
Votes | 7–3–0 | |||
Juror | Vote | |||
Tai | Sarah | |||
Aubry | Sarah | |||
Cirie | Sarah | |||
Michaela | Sarah | |||
Andrea | Sarah | |||
Sierra | Brad | |||
Zeke | Sarah | |||
Debbie | Brad | |||
Ozzy | Brad | |||
Hali | Sarah |
Hi! To avoid the massive split topic that has happened across so many articles now, I've created a thread here to discuss the tables being used on Survivor articles. The MOS itself is non-negotiable, but if anyone has any ideas as to how to create these tables without failing MOS, please create an example topic. This is for all three tables, the Contestants, season history (which needs work, it's still a mess), and the voting history table. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 22:44, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
I stopped editing the pages because I realized someone reverted all my edits, and this thread exists. Unfortunately, I don't think most of us opposed to this are familiar with MOS and the rule the old tables break. MrNoahK ( talk) 01:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Hey man. You are the only person who doesn't like the voting charts having color. Literally the only person. Ever. We, the Survivor fans, have enjoyed using and looking at these charts for LONG before you showed up. If the MOS makes reading the charts more difficult, than what good is the MOS? The whole point of this is communication of information! You have literally made it harder to communicate information on a webpage designed for communicating information. The changes are ridiculous and unnecessary. You've seen the backlash that you are getting. You've seen how the people who actually use these charts DO NOT LIKE THE CHANGES. At what point to you is it not worth it? Who is benefitting from this? I'd really like an answer for that question. WHO is benefitting from this? With respect, TPMan02. TPMan02 ( talk) 01:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Hi. Declaration of conflict of interest first: I am the person who spent ages making sure that the tribe colors that we have documented on Template:Stribe/color for American and Australian Survivor were as accurate as possible.
I admit that I was not aware that many of the tribe colors that I arrived at were unsuitable to be used as cell background colors as per MOS:COLORS. I have every intention to help work out a way to render these tables that better reconciles with the MOS.
That said, I sympathize with one reader, who wrote about their habit of referring to, and remembering, the tribes by their colors instead of their names. I imagine that this habit will only grow more widespread among viewers now that the show is stuck in Fiji and new tribe names grow less and less unique. And this is why I believe that these articles should ideally still feature tribe colors to some degree.
A large component of a Survivor tribe's identity is its color. I don't think anyone can even argue against that in good conscience. When a tribe's name shows up as on-screen text, it's always in its tribe color. When a contestant's name shows up, it's always in the color of the tribe they are affiliated with at the time (unless temporarily tribeless). The name and the color go hand-in-hand. These current edits, however, carry an implication that is completely at odds with this fact: that tribe names alone do an adequate job at conveying all relevant information while tribe colors are at best a "garish" distraction that do not matter.
In reality, we have had a dyslexic reader testify that having tribe colors in cell backgrounds used to make it so much easier for them to tell, at a glance, the shifts in tribal statuses and affiliations over the course of a season, and now that the colors are gone this has become significantly less accessible for them.
In addition, I strongly disagree with Lee's assessment from February that no one can even understand what these "garish" colors are supposed to mean when there's no key—I would wager that the significance of the colors were always intuitively obvious and trivially understandable in the old format (in fact, we even used to have keys for the tribes' names and colors in the infobox of each season many years ago, and it was decided by consensus that they were redundant).
Seeing the patterns of differing/changing colors on a season's voting chart made a lot of information immediately and transparently obtainable: the point at which the tribal phase turned into the individual, which tribe went to Tribal Council each episode, the tribal affiliation history of each contestant, which tribe a contestant belonged to at any given vote, etc. And this is a type of information that color is uniquely well-suited as a means to convey effectively whereas text just can't do so as elegantly no matter how hard you try to make it work. As it happens, a large part of these articles' reader base find this information relevant if not essential. Under the new format, this information will either now require additional back-and-forth glances at the edges of the tables or become completely opaque. This, I take it, is why one colorblind reader opined that making the entire tables uniformly grey will actually be a step in the direction of decreased, not increased, accessibility on the aggregate: taking a format that a minority of readers might not be able to parse well, and turning it into a format that is difficult to parse for everyone.
I get that the MOS stipulates unambiguously that color must never be used as the sole conveyor of information in any instance, but why must we so intransigently refuse to just put color to good use in this case when it genuinely is the optimal candidate medium for conveying these types of information? It seems like this is an edge case of the MOS not being conducive toward the purposes for which it was formulated, as evidenced by all the aforementioned reader feedback citing genuine accessibility concerns and adverse effects of the edits.
Also, just what would be the consequences here if these tables didn't conform to the MOS, anyway? As I understand, this series of edits came about as part of a larger endeavor to get these articles to pass GA reviews. Well, to hell with them becoming Good Articles! The majority of readers would be perfectly happy if they remained as simply "articles" if it means they got to keep their colors.
As for the particular tribe colors that currently violate text-background contrast guidelines, however, I am open to doing some tweaks on those in the near future.
So let's make something work.
Best,
— Авария·витиевА тая 06:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
I am going to make a response here, as someone who set this off in reviewing a page for our good article standards, a process called good article nomination (GAN). I hope those who come here from elsewhere read this and understand where other editors (and myself) are coming from.
It may surprise you to learn that the gal that put all of this in motion is a lifelong Survivor watcher. But I'm also a Wikipedia editor since 2005 and have been intensively involved for the last three years. Most of my work is in radio and television stations, which like Survivor has a fairly small group of dedicated editors. Prior to a little over two years ago, there were no GAs on active television stations in the United States. Now, there are 17 and more on the way—including a few CBS affiliates that air Survivor. When I bring pages to GA, I wind up learning things, and standards end up changing in the entire subject area. I'm familiar with this dynamic.
Some of what I've learned—and have brought to bear elsewhere—is in accessibility. Historically, I don't think Wikipedia has been that good at promoting a culture of proactive accessibility among its editors. However, in recent years, standards have improved. A lot of pages don't meet them as written because of their recency and because of "local area" conventions that have come into direct conflict with the MOS.
Our accessibility standards exist to help people read pages, and in the field of tables the colorblind and users of screen readers (the visually impaired) are the groups needing to be served properly. Text needs to be readable, there needs to be metadata to help screen readers parse the templates, and color should not be the only means of conveying information. However, color can for some readers be very useful.
I've taken this table and done a demonstration using {{ Color sample}} in addition to the passed-at-GA version of the table. I used this instead of {{ Color box}} as that template does not support a description for screen readers. The description screen readers see is a color (yellow, red, etc.), so a Hiki cell in the table below would be described as "Yellow / Hiki".
This could be adopted with some minor changes to the stribe infrastructure (to allow a template call to {{ stribe/color}} to produce just a hex value) and deployed fairly quickly. I'm not sure if this would go down well, but it at least maintains the accessibility concerns that came into the limelight at GAN. I would love to hear your comments. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:22, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
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If that information is important to include it should be in a separate cell entirely. That said, changing these to unsortable if so desired is trivial to do ( Help:Sorting#Making selected columns unsortable). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 08:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Contestant | Original tribe | No tribe | Merged tribe | Finish |
---|---|---|---|---|
Jackson Fox 48, Houston, Texas |
Taku | Medically removed Day 3 | ||
Zach Wurtenberger 22, St. Louis, Missouri |
Ika | 1st voted out Day 3 | ||
Marya Sherron 47, Noblesville, Indiana |
Taku | 2nd voted out Day 5 | ||
Jenny Kim 43, Brooklyn, New York |
Vati | 3rd voted out Day 7 | ||
Swati Goel 19, Palo Alto, California |
Ika | 4th voted out Day 9 | ||
Daniel Strunk 30, New Haven, Connecticut |
Vati | 5th voted out Day 11 | ||
Lydia Meredith 22, Santa Monica, California |
None [a] | 6th voted out Day 14 | ||
Chanelle Howell 29, New York, New York |
Kula Kula | 7th voted out 1st jury member Day 16 | ||
Rocksroy Bailey 44, Las Vegas, Nevada |
Ika | 8th voted out 2nd jury member Day 17 | ||
Tori Meehan 25, Rogers, Arkansas |
9th voted out 3rd jury member Day 17 | |||
Lindsay Dolashewich 31, Asbury Park, New Jersey |
Taku | |||
Romeo Escobar 37, Norwalk, California |
Ika | |||
Hai Giang 29, New Orleans, Louisiana |
Vati | |||
Maryanne Oketch 24, Ajax, Ontario, Canada |
Taku | |||
Mike Turner 58, Hoboken, New Jersey |
Vati | |||
Drea Wheeler 35, Montreal, Quebec, Canada |
Ika | |||
Jonathan Young 29, Gulf Shores, Alabama |
Taku | |||
Omar Zaheer 31, Whitby, Ontario, Canada |
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Here's the example from Survivor: Winners at War:
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My suggestion for the contestants table:
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OctoMocto ( talk) 01:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
If you want to suggest a new format of design you should discuss about it with other Wikipedia editors. It's clear that a lot of us aren't happy about it, the old format was not only easier to understand, but easier on the eyes. You said that there's an issue with the old charts, but none of us seen it. If everyone against it, why to insist of keeping it? What about our voices in this? SeosiWrestling ( talk) 03:10, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
A couple of days ago, User:Sportsfan 1234 warned my message through my talk page and he said:
You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Survivor 41. Sportsfan 1234 ( talk) 01:09, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
And that user also warned Bgsu98 ( talk · contribs) and responded through the latter's talk page as well:
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.
- If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
- If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Please stop your disruptive editing on Survivor articles. There is no consensus for your edits. Sportsfan 1234 ( talk) 01:08, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
To these warnings that they don't want us to send a report at WP:ANI to make it understand. That is totally fucking useless with the editing privileges as no shit. ApprenticeWiki work 10:47, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me where the consensus was reached to keep the contestant/voting tables in the new format as they currently are? Every discussion I've seen (S42's talk page, Survivor Africa's talk page, here etc), it appears the overwhelming consensus aside from Lee is to keep them the way they've been agreed on by the community at large for over a decade and a half with minor tweaks here and there. But Lee seems to have made a unilateral change alongside whoever oversaw the GA review and despite many people positing valid arguments why the new tables do not meet the standards he supposedly cited, the minority has prevailed. Any insight? Greenday61892 ( talk) 21:20, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
The new voting chart layout is completely inaccessible. The voting chart has been made to be low contrast and I struggled to differentiate between the rows. It seems the administrators here are more concerned with their arbitrary interpretation of the rules than the accessibility of articles. The color needs to be restored so users with vision impairments can read more easily. I agree that the tribe swap colors on the far left didn't make much sense, but this rush to judgment is negatively impacting people with disabilities and the survivor community as a whole. Ugla'a ( talk) 01:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm still working on Draft:List of Survivor (American TV series) finalists (seasons 1–20), which may need an interested helping hand. I have also considered merging into the lists less notable winners, runners-up, and others who appeared as one of top/remaining four or five members of the merged tribe in season finales. The matter was originally discussed at Talk:Survivor (American TV series)#Notabilities of winners and runners-up. George Ho ( talk) 05:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi! I'm really worried that we turned a corner and made the tables WP:ACCESS compliant, even had an WP:RfC above and have simply had them all reverted to be massively covered by colours and not MOS compliant. I'm just going to remind everyone that there is absolutely no reason to ignore consensus by changing the design of the tables, without gaining a new sitewide consensus. I can see that, despite taking several articles to good article status, we've simply reverted to a completely unreadable and unaccessible table design, such as at Survivor:Cook Islands#Contestants. Please can we change this back to the accessible version that has both a local and sitewide consensus per the RfC above ( #MOS fixes for tables et al)? Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
Two down, three more up for nomination. Randy Kryn ( talk) 05:01, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Brand-new article, List of Survivor (American TV series) winners, has been nominated for deletion. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Schazjmd (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Maryanne Oketch has been nominated for deletion. Your input there is welcome. George Ho ( talk) 10:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
As the consensus of the new tables has been established, I have tried to edit international editions of Survivor with it. However, a certain user is constantly undoing my edits because that format is only "used in English-speaking Survivor" (e.g., Expeditie Robinson 2023 and Robinson Ekspeditionen 2023), which would go against the consensus. I am not trying to be disruptive; instead, I'm trying to contribute, and I currently need your support to keep the format as such. Freddy7GL ( talk) 07:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
There is another
user disruptively reverting edits based on
MOS:ACCESS and
MOS:COLOR for no reason whatsoever. The format they're using clearly violates the consensus. I would like some help with monitoring these pages and addressing this user, please.
Hi! I've been reading the Manual of Style, specifically the "Tables" section, and I noticed a few things.
There is information that is not categorized, and that is "Contestant, age, from." I figured that, because those are relevant information of a contestant, it should become a column group. (See example.)
"Avoid using <br /> or <hr /> tags in adjacent cells to emulate a visual row that isn't reflected in the HTML table structure. This is a problem for users of screen readers which read tables cell by cell, HTML row by HTML row, not visual row by visual row."
Whenever a contestant is voted out and becomes a jury member: "Xth voted out (line break) Xth jury member." I thought maybe separating the jury portion into another column would be a better solution.
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Freddy7GL ( talk) 18:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
Cite error: There are <ref group=lower-alpha>
tags or {{efn}}
templates on this page, but the references will not show without a {{reflist|group=lower-alpha}}
template or {{notelist}}
template (see the
help page).
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Over the years, we have floated various rules and guidelines regarding citation of events, facts and notability, and now that we have this Task Force in place I think it is time to establish a clear set of "ok" and "not ok" sources to use in articles. In particular, this would look at websites such as the infamous Survivor Sucks site, which admittedly is a spoiler site, but does churn out some interesting discussion at times. Some of this discussion has managed to find its way onto Wikipedia (see Talk:Jonathan Penner), and is being cited by anonymous and registered users alike as gospel truth (pun intended, if you read the talk page in question). Having this Manual of Style would allow us to straight off the mark say that, "no, we cannot have this per WP:MOS/Survivor..." instead of endlessly debating the notability of supposed events. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 09:44, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
I know how clogging the sections are. Palau's takes a big deal of room! If we could make them less clogging or get rid of them, we'd have better articles. I might take the lists on. I've gotta see how clogging they are. MySurvivorPartay ( talk) 01:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
0
This one's good! Done
Shapiros10
Came Back!
11:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Did I get kicked out of this Task Force?Stjimmy61892 15:39, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
Partway through China, Masem and Gogo Dodo (among others) worked on a new format for episode summaries that has been implemented for that season and Micronesia. I think we should look at converting the other seasons' pages into this format as well so we can have some consistency; what do you guys think? (EDIT) also perhaps go on CBS websites and put episode summaries in for the first (I think) eleven seasons, which don't have them.-- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 08:37, 1 May 2008 (UTC)
Two contestant templates are up for deletion. If you feel so inclined, add your comments to the discussions here and the one below it. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 07:14, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
Isn't Sole Survivor a title, thus it must be capitalized. Who agrees? From Tagi to Bottom, My Survivor Partay ( Wobbuffet!. Dats right) 00:18, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
Should the standard be for the challenge descriptions to go before the description of events in the episode summaries or after? China has them at the end of each episode summary while Micronesia and Gabon have them at the beginning.
My preference is the end. The challenges just don't seem to be as important as the overall events. -- Bull Wiki Winkle 00:12, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
OK... Having settled the placement of challenge descriptions, I now notice that the descriptions of rewards aren't very unified. Some start with 'The winning tribe [gets|wins|will win|etc.]', whereas some just give a list of items or a simple description of the reward.
I think it's overkill to write a full sentence for each one. How about standardizing on just a simple list of items or description (for trips and such)? -- Bull Wiki Winkle 02:16, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
I've gone ahead and done this for China, Micronesia, and Gabon. -- Bull Wiki Winkle 18:52, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
{{ User:The dark lord trombonator/WPST}}
I'm not sure how many of you actually check this page.... but I'll post anyway. I'm in the process of creating a template to go on the top of talk pages, similar to
Template:WPHP (despite me being a complete n00b when it comes to templating. It's in a subpage of mine,
User:The dark lord trombonator/WPST; feel free to check it out and give feedback. I'd post an example of what it looks like, but somehow all text after it gets stuck inside the box, so check it out at the talk page of the sub above. All help is welcome, thanks! -- THE
DARK LORD
TROMBONATOR
06:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
Twila Tanner AfD currently running. Nom says delete per WP:1E and I would tend to agree. If you feel differently, make your voice heard. -- THE DARK LORD TROMBONATOR 01:28, 21 November 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the Borneo talk page where some changes to the current layout of Survivor articles are being proposed. If you have an opinion, you may want to weigh in. -- Bull Wiki Winkle 00:17, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
So I'm planning on further expanding as many Survivor seasons as I can. I started with Survivor: Borneo. It is currently up for peer review, and as I was waiting to move it, three editors approached me about being bold and just moving it. All three and myself believe it is much much nicer, and cleaner. My next project will be Survivor: All Stars, once Borneo is done (probably). Look for Boreno to be at FAC in a week or two.
Also, I'd like to re-design this project. What about making this it's own project for starts, instead of a "Task Force"? Thoughts? iMatthew 18:14, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
I have a bunch of problems about tribe colors in the season articles; as in, a lot of them are very inaccurate and not even close. Should I do anything about that, other than bring it up (for a third time in Borneo I might add) in the Talk sections? Stjimmy61892 ( talk) 19:32, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
The color edit wars are becoming tiresome. One possible way to at least contain the warring would be to create a tribe color template, which specifies the background and text color when fed a particular tribe name. If there is any interest, I can make something up. It would basically be a big switch statement which returns a style statement for the particular tribe name. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 23:06, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
<span>...</span>
tag.
Plastikspork
―Œ(talk)
03:24, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
<span>...</span>
. The idea is to reduce the specification of the colors to a single template, to avoid redundancy and possible inconsistency. Thanks!
Plastikspork
―Œ(talk)
18:43, 24 February 2010 (UTC)
I moved it to {{ stribe}}, but I am somewhat indifferent to the actual name. I figured this was short. I am also somewhat indifferent to the name of {{ stribe/color}} and {{ stribe/name}}. This one could be longer since it will most likely won't be used directly. The color template can be used to make a color box as well (see the source code for {{ colorbox}}). Any preference for the name for this? It could also be a bit longer since it won't be used too repetitively. One obvious suggestion would be {{ survivor colorbox}}? Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 05:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Talk:Survivor: Samoa#Voting history regarding a new voting history format. Cheers, -- Meäghân talk 21:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Questions about sourcing and content of episode summaries have been posed here, which was started after this post. Thanks! Plastikspork ―Œ(talk) 21:22, 2 April 2010 (UTC)
So, we now have {{Survivorwinners}}
and {{
Survivor contestants}} and succession boxes? This seems like a bit much, so I have nominated Survivor winners for deletion
here. Thanks!
Plastikspork
―Œ(talk)
22:53, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
A while ago, standardized widths became the standard for the "The game" table. I don't see why we shouldn't implement them into the "Contestants" table for the tribe columns. On some seasons, especially Gabon, the tribe columns' widths aren't even. I've created a new version of the Gabon table using the proposed standardized width (85px) here. Thoughts? -- Meaghan :) ≈ 14:43, 29 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure how many people monitor WP:MOSTV or even WP:TV (the basic WikiProject for all of us), but we've been trying to get some feedback on additions to the TV Manual of Style. It largely has to do with the inclusion of "Overview" tables at the start of the page, the order in which season lists are presented (currently, there is no concrete order), and what is considered too much info for DVDs (i.e. should we be placing every detail about the box set in the article, from each interview to the aspect ratio, or should be keep it more generalized). Please see discussion at WT:MOSTV#Updates to the MOS. Thank you. BIGNOLE (Contact me) 22:10, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Whoever created it... I have no idea. I have seen no mention of proposals for it, it's totally unnecessary IMO, and no one has gotten rid of it yet. I'm going to get rid of them because it's on the first three seasons. If you disagree just revert the edit. Stjimmy61892 ( talk) 18:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)
does Survivor stats violate WP:NOSTATS and WP:OR? Frietjes ( talk) 21:18, 29 May 2014 (UTC)
It makes no sense that the names in the Finalist row are don't match the order of total votes in the Votes cell that immediately follows, nor do the vote totals correspond to the rows of votes that follow that cell. In the following partial example from Survivor: Samoa, I've added the ranking to the contestant's name in that row to show how they are misaligned with the vote totals:
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Finalist | Mick (3d) | Russell H. (2d) | Natalie (won) |
Votes | 7–2–0 |
Apparently all of the season articles do it this way, and in my opinion, all of the articles are wrong. I was not able to find any old discussions that established a consensus for the jury vote table to list contestants in 3-2-1 position (left to right) and vote totals in 1-2-3 position. It's possible one person put it backwards and the other articles copied it, I don't know. But I cannot think of any plausible justification for this oddity.
Propose listing vote totals in the jury vote table in each Survivor season article in the same order as the finalists. Discussion?
This project appears to be dormant, so I will notify Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Television/Reality television task force and the talk pages for each Survivor season in order to reach interested editors.
Schazjmd (talk) 16:34, 29 April 2021 (UTC)
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Finalists | Natalie (won) | Russell H. (2d) | Mick (3d) |
Votes | 7–2–0 |
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Votes | 7–2–0 | ||
Finalists | Natalie (won) | Russell H. (2d) | Mick (3d) |
Jury vote | |||
---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 16 | ||
Day # | 39 | ||
Finalist | Natalie | Russell H. | Mick |
Votes | 7–2–0 | ||
Juror | Votes | ||
Brett | Natalie | ||
Jaison | Natalie | ||
Shambo | Russell H. | ||
Monica | Natalie | ||
Dave | Natalie | ||
John | Russell H. | ||
Laura | Natalie | ||
Kelly | Natalie | ||
Erik | Natalie |
I have begun to make the change of corresponding the vote counts in the jury vote table to the finalists who received the votes, placing the winner on the left and runner(s)-up on the right. Right now, I'm focusing on the first 12 seasons, when it was just a final two and seven on the jury, and only rearranging the columns. As far as the changing of the colors of the jurors and going with boldface, it might be better to wait for further discussion. MPFitz1968 ( talk) 06:40, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
Decided to do the same for seasons 16 (Micronesia) and 28 (Cagayan), with those being the only other two seasons with a final two. MPFitz1968 ( talk) 07:12, 7 May 2021 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Television § Standardized terms for elimination-style reality program progress tables. –
Novem Linguae (
talk)
04:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
Hi all, I recently started watching the Survivor series for the first time (I'm onto series 12 now, started watching at the start of the month), and I'm thinking I could start taking some of the series articles through the WP:GA process. I started looking at Survivor: Borneo and there's a few things that should probably be mentioned here, as if these changes were made, the articles would be a template and other articles would likely pass a GAN review. I have done a bit of a copy edit of what is already there.
First, I'm going to put in a overview section. A bit about how the Survivor game is played, basic rules (votes, castaways having to forage for food etc) as well as the structure, television rights, etc. This would be combined into the production section, or production would be a subsection of overview. I'll get to work on an example soon, as something like this could be unilaterally applied to all of the series, with some expansion for the newer rules, such as Immunity idols or whatever the new thing is.
Second, we really need to cut down the amount of tables that are duplicates of others. The "Challenge winners and eliminations by episode" table is simply the same info as the "episodes" list. The only additional info this table has is who wins the immunity and reward tasks. This could either be in prose in the episode list, or just removed altogether. We aren't a respository of information, this seems pretty WP:CRUFTy to me. The "CBS Recap" external links should really be culled - it's not particularly enclyopedic, especially as they are currently deadlinks.
The colours used in the tables also need to be changed. Currently they don't meet WP:ACCESS. I'd recommend using set colours rather than tribe colours, or use †, ‡ etc to denote which tribes a participant was on.
I'll make some changes over the coming days, but just a heads up on this. If there are any suggestions to make these changes meet the policies better, please let me know. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 21:45, 28 December 2021 (UTC)
On this, I've done some changes to the article, and whilst I do have some general misgivings to {{ stribe}}, they don't completely fall foul of MOS:COLOR other than in the Voting History. Colour should only be used to make things easier to read, and never be used to denote information on its own (with also WP:ACCESS issues). Whilst I'd like to remove all of the colours from the Voting history section, at the very least, the opening column is particularly bad. May I suggest the below. The jury is almost always made up of a merged tribe, so the colours there are completey useless. If we did use this, I'd also want to use some !scope fields to meet our screen reader needs. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 11:33, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
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Although I see where Lee Vilenski is coming from (with the tables being against MOS), there are certain tribes (like Tavua in Game Changers or Yanuya in Ghost Island) that don't attend Tribal Council because they win immunity. Therefore, if they're removing the tribe-colored section from the "Voter" portion of the table, then there's no way to tell in which tribe each contestant was a part of, unless you return to the Contestant section of the page, which I think would be quite tedious.
Here's an idea of what I had in mind for this "new format".
Take the green-colored Tavua tribe into consideration: considering they never went to any of the three post-swap Tribal Councils, if the color portion is taken out of the "Voter" column, you could only verify which tribe they belonged to if you have to go look at the Contestants' section. This is what I'd suggest instead: keep the colors (without adding any text to them) and add a new column to specify the name of the Voter.
P.S.: I even have some other suggestions when it comes to the tables, such as font size (which should be smaller), jury vote (which should also probably be added above instead of in a separate table), etc.
Original tribes | First swap | Second swap | Merged tribe | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | ||||||||||||||||
Day # | 3 | 6 | 9 | 11 [a] | 13 | 16 | 18 | 21 | 24 | 26 | 29 | 32 | 33 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | |||||||||||
Eliminated | Ciera | Tony | Caleb | Malcolm | J.T. | Sandra | Jeff | Hali | Ozzy | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Michaela | None | Cirie | Aubry | Tai | ||||||||||
Votes | 9–1 | 7–2 | 5–1 | 5–0 [b] | 3–2 | 5–2 | 6–0 [c] | 7–3–2–1 | 7–4–1–1 | 6–5 | 5–3–2 | 6–3 | 6–2 | 4–2–1 | 0–0–0 [d] | Default [d] | 4–1 | 3–1 | ||||||||||
Voter | Vote | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Sarah | Sandra | Jeff | Debbie | Ozzy | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Michaela | Michaela [e] | Immune | Aubry | Tai | |||||||||||||||
Brad | Caleb | Malcolm | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Tai | Andrea | Andrea | Michaela | Immune | Aubry | Tai | ||||||||||||||||
Troyzan | Ciera | Tony | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Tai | Andrea | Andrea | Michaela | Immune | Aubry | Tai | ||||||||||||||||
Tai | Caleb | Malcolm | Sandra | Jeff | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Cirie | Sierra | Andrea | None [e] | Immune | Aubry | Troyzan | ||||||||||||||
Aubry | Ciera | Tony | Michaela | Hali | Zeke | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Brad | Tai | Immune | Troyzan | ||||||||||||||||
Cirie | Michaela | Sierra | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Aubry | Eliminated | ||||||||||||||||||||
Michaela | Ciera | Tony | J.T. | Zeke | Zeke | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Andrea | Tai | ||||||||||||||||||
Andrea | Sandra | Jeff | Michaela | Zeke | Debbie | Zeke | Sierra | Brad | ||||||||||||||||||||
Sierra | Caleb | Malcolm | Hali | Ozzy | Sarah | Tai | Andrea | |||||||||||||||||||||
Zeke | Sandra | Jeff | Michaela | Aubry | Debbie | Cirie | ||||||||||||||||||||||
Debbie | Caleb | Malcolm | Exiled [f] | Jeff | Hali | Ozzy | Ozzy [g] | Sarah | ||||||||||||||||||||
Ozzy | Sandra | Jeff | Hali | Zeke | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
Hali | Ciera | Tony | Caleb | Malcolm | Zeke | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Jeff | Ciera | Tony | J.T. | Sarah | None [c] | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Sandra | Ciera | Aubry | J.T. | Sarah | ||||||||||||||||||||||||
J.T. | Michaela | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Malcolm | Ciera | Tony | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Caleb | Ciera | Tony | Hali | |||||||||||||||||||||||||
Tony | Ciera | Aubry | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ciera | Michaela |
Jury vote<ref name="Eldridge Industries"/> | ||||
---|---|---|---|---|
Episode # | 13 | |||
Day # | 39 | |||
Finalist | Sarah | Brad | Troyzan | |
Votes | 7–3–0 | |||
Juror | Vote | |||
Tai | Sarah | |||
Aubry | Sarah | |||
Cirie | Sarah | |||
Michaela | Sarah | |||
Andrea | Sarah | |||
Sierra | Brad | |||
Zeke | Sarah | |||
Debbie | Brad | |||
Ozzy | Brad | |||
Hali | Sarah |
Hi! To avoid the massive split topic that has happened across so many articles now, I've created a thread here to discuss the tables being used on Survivor articles. The MOS itself is non-negotiable, but if anyone has any ideas as to how to create these tables without failing MOS, please create an example topic. This is for all three tables, the Contestants, season history (which needs work, it's still a mess), and the voting history table. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 22:44, 30 April 2022 (UTC)
I stopped editing the pages because I realized someone reverted all my edits, and this thread exists. Unfortunately, I don't think most of us opposed to this are familiar with MOS and the rule the old tables break. MrNoahK ( talk) 01:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Hey man. You are the only person who doesn't like the voting charts having color. Literally the only person. Ever. We, the Survivor fans, have enjoyed using and looking at these charts for LONG before you showed up. If the MOS makes reading the charts more difficult, than what good is the MOS? The whole point of this is communication of information! You have literally made it harder to communicate information on a webpage designed for communicating information. The changes are ridiculous and unnecessary. You've seen the backlash that you are getting. You've seen how the people who actually use these charts DO NOT LIKE THE CHANGES. At what point to you is it not worth it? Who is benefitting from this? I'd really like an answer for that question. WHO is benefitting from this? With respect, TPMan02. TPMan02 ( talk) 01:07, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Hi. Declaration of conflict of interest first: I am the person who spent ages making sure that the tribe colors that we have documented on Template:Stribe/color for American and Australian Survivor were as accurate as possible.
I admit that I was not aware that many of the tribe colors that I arrived at were unsuitable to be used as cell background colors as per MOS:COLORS. I have every intention to help work out a way to render these tables that better reconciles with the MOS.
That said, I sympathize with one reader, who wrote about their habit of referring to, and remembering, the tribes by their colors instead of their names. I imagine that this habit will only grow more widespread among viewers now that the show is stuck in Fiji and new tribe names grow less and less unique. And this is why I believe that these articles should ideally still feature tribe colors to some degree.
A large component of a Survivor tribe's identity is its color. I don't think anyone can even argue against that in good conscience. When a tribe's name shows up as on-screen text, it's always in its tribe color. When a contestant's name shows up, it's always in the color of the tribe they are affiliated with at the time (unless temporarily tribeless). The name and the color go hand-in-hand. These current edits, however, carry an implication that is completely at odds with this fact: that tribe names alone do an adequate job at conveying all relevant information while tribe colors are at best a "garish" distraction that do not matter.
In reality, we have had a dyslexic reader testify that having tribe colors in cell backgrounds used to make it so much easier for them to tell, at a glance, the shifts in tribal statuses and affiliations over the course of a season, and now that the colors are gone this has become significantly less accessible for them.
In addition, I strongly disagree with Lee's assessment from February that no one can even understand what these "garish" colors are supposed to mean when there's no key—I would wager that the significance of the colors were always intuitively obvious and trivially understandable in the old format (in fact, we even used to have keys for the tribes' names and colors in the infobox of each season many years ago, and it was decided by consensus that they were redundant).
Seeing the patterns of differing/changing colors on a season's voting chart made a lot of information immediately and transparently obtainable: the point at which the tribal phase turned into the individual, which tribe went to Tribal Council each episode, the tribal affiliation history of each contestant, which tribe a contestant belonged to at any given vote, etc. And this is a type of information that color is uniquely well-suited as a means to convey effectively whereas text just can't do so as elegantly no matter how hard you try to make it work. As it happens, a large part of these articles' reader base find this information relevant if not essential. Under the new format, this information will either now require additional back-and-forth glances at the edges of the tables or become completely opaque. This, I take it, is why one colorblind reader opined that making the entire tables uniformly grey will actually be a step in the direction of decreased, not increased, accessibility on the aggregate: taking a format that a minority of readers might not be able to parse well, and turning it into a format that is difficult to parse for everyone.
I get that the MOS stipulates unambiguously that color must never be used as the sole conveyor of information in any instance, but why must we so intransigently refuse to just put color to good use in this case when it genuinely is the optimal candidate medium for conveying these types of information? It seems like this is an edge case of the MOS not being conducive toward the purposes for which it was formulated, as evidenced by all the aforementioned reader feedback citing genuine accessibility concerns and adverse effects of the edits.
Also, just what would be the consequences here if these tables didn't conform to the MOS, anyway? As I understand, this series of edits came about as part of a larger endeavor to get these articles to pass GA reviews. Well, to hell with them becoming Good Articles! The majority of readers would be perfectly happy if they remained as simply "articles" if it means they got to keep their colors.
As for the particular tribe colors that currently violate text-background contrast guidelines, however, I am open to doing some tweaks on those in the near future.
So let's make something work.
Best,
— Авария·витиевА тая 06:35, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
I am going to make a response here, as someone who set this off in reviewing a page for our good article standards, a process called good article nomination (GAN). I hope those who come here from elsewhere read this and understand where other editors (and myself) are coming from.
It may surprise you to learn that the gal that put all of this in motion is a lifelong Survivor watcher. But I'm also a Wikipedia editor since 2005 and have been intensively involved for the last three years. Most of my work is in radio and television stations, which like Survivor has a fairly small group of dedicated editors. Prior to a little over two years ago, there were no GAs on active television stations in the United States. Now, there are 17 and more on the way—including a few CBS affiliates that air Survivor. When I bring pages to GA, I wind up learning things, and standards end up changing in the entire subject area. I'm familiar with this dynamic.
Some of what I've learned—and have brought to bear elsewhere—is in accessibility. Historically, I don't think Wikipedia has been that good at promoting a culture of proactive accessibility among its editors. However, in recent years, standards have improved. A lot of pages don't meet them as written because of their recency and because of "local area" conventions that have come into direct conflict with the MOS.
Our accessibility standards exist to help people read pages, and in the field of tables the colorblind and users of screen readers (the visually impaired) are the groups needing to be served properly. Text needs to be readable, there needs to be metadata to help screen readers parse the templates, and color should not be the only means of conveying information. However, color can for some readers be very useful.
I've taken this table and done a demonstration using {{ Color sample}} in addition to the passed-at-GA version of the table. I used this instead of {{ Color box}} as that template does not support a description for screen readers. The description screen readers see is a color (yellow, red, etc.), so a Hiki cell in the table below would be described as "Yellow / Hiki".
This could be adopted with some minor changes to the stribe infrastructure (to allow a template call to {{ stribe/color}} to produce just a hex value) and deployed fairly quickly. I'm not sure if this would go down well, but it at least maintains the accessibility concerns that came into the limelight at GAN. I would love to hear your comments. Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 07:22, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
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If that information is important to include it should be in a separate cell entirely. That said, changing these to unsortable if so desired is trivial to do ( Help:Sorting#Making selected columns unsortable). Sammi Brie (she/her • t • c) 08:05, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
Contestant | Original tribe | No tribe | Merged tribe | Finish |
---|---|---|---|---|
Jackson Fox 48, Houston, Texas |
Taku | Medically removed Day 3 | ||
Zach Wurtenberger 22, St. Louis, Missouri |
Ika | 1st voted out Day 3 | ||
Marya Sherron 47, Noblesville, Indiana |
Taku | 2nd voted out Day 5 | ||
Jenny Kim 43, Brooklyn, New York |
Vati | 3rd voted out Day 7 | ||
Swati Goel 19, Palo Alto, California |
Ika | 4th voted out Day 9 | ||
Daniel Strunk 30, New Haven, Connecticut |
Vati | 5th voted out Day 11 | ||
Lydia Meredith 22, Santa Monica, California |
None [a] | 6th voted out Day 14 | ||
Chanelle Howell 29, New York, New York |
Kula Kula | 7th voted out 1st jury member Day 16 | ||
Rocksroy Bailey 44, Las Vegas, Nevada |
Ika | 8th voted out 2nd jury member Day 17 | ||
Tori Meehan 25, Rogers, Arkansas |
9th voted out 3rd jury member Day 17 | |||
Lindsay Dolashewich 31, Asbury Park, New Jersey |
Taku | |||
Romeo Escobar 37, Norwalk, California |
Ika | |||
Hai Giang 29, New Orleans, Louisiana |
Vati | |||
Maryanne Oketch 24, Ajax, Ontario, Canada |
Taku | |||
Mike Turner 58, Hoboken, New Jersey |
Vati | |||
Drea Wheeler 35, Montreal, Quebec, Canada |
Ika | |||
Jonathan Young 29, Gulf Shores, Alabama |
Taku | |||
Omar Zaheer 31, Whitby, Ontario, Canada |
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Here's the example from Survivor: Winners at War:
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My suggestion for the contestants table:
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OctoMocto ( talk) 01:34, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
If you want to suggest a new format of design you should discuss about it with other Wikipedia editors. It's clear that a lot of us aren't happy about it, the old format was not only easier to understand, but easier on the eyes. You said that there's an issue with the old charts, but none of us seen it. If everyone against it, why to insist of keeping it? What about our voices in this? SeosiWrestling ( talk) 03:10, 23 May 2022 (UTC)
A couple of days ago, User:Sportsfan 1234 warned my message through my talk page and he said:
You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Survivor 41. Sportsfan 1234 ( talk) 01:09, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
And that user also warned Bgsu98 ( talk · contribs) and responded through the latter's talk page as well:
Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia. Your edits appear to be disruptive and have been or will be reverted.
- If you are engaged in an article content dispute with another editor, please discuss the matter with the editor at their talk page, or the article's talk page, and seek consensus with them. Alternatively, you can read Wikipedia's dispute resolution page, and ask for independent help at one of the relevant noticeboards.
- If you are engaged in any other form of dispute that is not covered on the dispute resolution page, please seek assistance at Wikipedia's Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents.
Please ensure you are familiar with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines, and please do not continue to make edits that appear disruptive. Continued disruptive editing may result in loss of editing privileges. Please stop your disruptive editing on Survivor articles. There is no consensus for your edits. Sportsfan 1234 ( talk) 01:08, 1 May 2022 (UTC)
To these warnings that they don't want us to send a report at WP:ANI to make it understand. That is totally fucking useless with the editing privileges as no shit. ApprenticeWiki work 10:47, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
Can someone please explain to me where the consensus was reached to keep the contestant/voting tables in the new format as they currently are? Every discussion I've seen (S42's talk page, Survivor Africa's talk page, here etc), it appears the overwhelming consensus aside from Lee is to keep them the way they've been agreed on by the community at large for over a decade and a half with minor tweaks here and there. But Lee seems to have made a unilateral change alongside whoever oversaw the GA review and despite many people positing valid arguments why the new tables do not meet the standards he supposedly cited, the minority has prevailed. Any insight? Greenday61892 ( talk) 21:20, 11 May 2022 (UTC)
The new voting chart layout is completely inaccessible. The voting chart has been made to be low contrast and I struggled to differentiate between the rows. It seems the administrators here are more concerned with their arbitrary interpretation of the rules than the accessibility of articles. The color needs to be restored so users with vision impairments can read more easily. I agree that the tribe swap colors on the far left didn't make much sense, but this rush to judgment is negatively impacting people with disabilities and the survivor community as a whole. Ugla'a ( talk) 01:36, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
I'm still working on Draft:List of Survivor (American TV series) finalists (seasons 1–20), which may need an interested helping hand. I have also considered merging into the lists less notable winners, runners-up, and others who appeared as one of top/remaining four or five members of the merged tribe in season finales. The matter was originally discussed at Talk:Survivor (American TV series)#Notabilities of winners and runners-up. George Ho ( talk) 05:31, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi! I'm really worried that we turned a corner and made the tables WP:ACCESS compliant, even had an WP:RfC above and have simply had them all reverted to be massively covered by colours and not MOS compliant. I'm just going to remind everyone that there is absolutely no reason to ignore consensus by changing the design of the tables, without gaining a new sitewide consensus. I can see that, despite taking several articles to good article status, we've simply reverted to a completely unreadable and unaccessible table design, such as at Survivor:Cook Islands#Contestants. Please can we change this back to the accessible version that has both a local and sitewide consensus per the RfC above ( #MOS fixes for tables et al)? Lee Vilenski ( talk • contribs) 20:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)
Two down, three more up for nomination. Randy Kryn ( talk) 05:01, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Brand-new article, List of Survivor (American TV series) winners, has been nominated for deletion. Interested editors are welcome to contribute to the discussion. Schazjmd (talk) 13:31, 10 May 2023 (UTC)
Maryanne Oketch has been nominated for deletion. Your input there is welcome. George Ho ( talk) 10:30, 8 June 2023 (UTC)
As the consensus of the new tables has been established, I have tried to edit international editions of Survivor with it. However, a certain user is constantly undoing my edits because that format is only "used in English-speaking Survivor" (e.g., Expeditie Robinson 2023 and Robinson Ekspeditionen 2023), which would go against the consensus. I am not trying to be disruptive; instead, I'm trying to contribute, and I currently need your support to keep the format as such. Freddy7GL ( talk) 07:37, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
There is another
user disruptively reverting edits based on
MOS:ACCESS and
MOS:COLOR for no reason whatsoever. The format they're using clearly violates the consensus. I would like some help with monitoring these pages and addressing this user, please.
Hi! I've been reading the Manual of Style, specifically the "Tables" section, and I noticed a few things.
There is information that is not categorized, and that is "Contestant, age, from." I figured that, because those are relevant information of a contestant, it should become a column group. (See example.)
"Avoid using <br /> or <hr /> tags in adjacent cells to emulate a visual row that isn't reflected in the HTML table structure. This is a problem for users of screen readers which read tables cell by cell, HTML row by HTML row, not visual row by visual row."
Whenever a contestant is voted out and becomes a jury member: "Xth voted out (line break) Xth jury member." I thought maybe separating the jury portion into another column would be a better solution.
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Freddy7GL ( talk) 18:51, 26 December 2023 (UTC)
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help page).