![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I have reopened this question on the Lighthouse Project talk page. Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward ( talk) 11:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I've been questioned on the correctness of our common usage of the nris reference in Elkman-based infoboxes, e.g. as in Garfield_School (Brunswick, New_York). Wadester16 points out to me that "the link, though, doesn't really offer the information cited", which is true.
The nris reference used (<ref name="nris">{{cite web|url=http://www.nr.nps.gov/|title=National Register Information System|date=2009-03-13|work=National Register of Historic Places|publisher=National Park Service}}</ref>) is in fact what has been used for info from the NRIS download that User:Elkman serves up. It is the reference suggested in Elkman output. Wadester is correct, though, that the National Register's own interface does not give access to all the info in their own database, in particular not to certain fields included in Elkman's interface. It would perhaps be better if we specifically referenced the Elkman download in a different way than has been practice.
There are several major interfaces to NRIS data which should perhaps be cited differently:
Actually i think we should specifically cite the interface that we have actually used in getting information, which would often involve crediting Elkman's system more specifically than has been our practice. Others' thoughts? doncram ( talk) 19:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I am unfamiliar with this project. I stumbled across Sudbury Center Historic District and my first reaction was, shouldn't this be merged into Sudbury, Massachusetts? I know that lots of historic places would not otherwise be captured in detail if they were just merged into a parent article, but in this case, wouldn't a lot of the information (should this ever be more than a stub) be redundant to info that could also easily be in the larger article? As a subheading-and not even a long one-for example? I'm wondering what the rationale is on a situation like this. Thanks! Surfer83 ( talk) 22:18, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
By the way, to provide a simple answer to the question: Sudbury's Historic Districts lists several other historic districts within the town: King Philip Historic District, Wayside Inn Historic Districts, and George Pitts Tavern Historic District. The Sudbury Center Historic District is not coterminous with the town. And the article on Sudbury Center Historic District, when it was created, should have included at least a little bit of context to tell the reader which parts of the village were included and why. -- Elkman (Elkspeak) 04:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The Birch Bayh Federal Building & U.S. Courthouse is up. I'm sure it needs a template and some evaluation. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, here's the Eldon B. Mahon United States Courthouse. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
First Roumanian-American congregation is a Featured Article Candidate. Comments welcome here. Jayjg (talk) 21:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, I'm newer to this project, so I hope this isn't already discussed elsewhere. I've been taking photos for NRHP pages in my local Boone County, Missouri area. Several of the sites are private residences. I talked to the homeowner of one of these sites and he didn't have a problem with me taking photos of his house or uploading them to the wiki commons. I've taken photographs of other houses from the street without talking to homeowners. I haven't yet used any of these. My question is, in cases of private residences, have you contacted the homeowners and asked permission to photograph their houses, or have you just taken some shots from the sidewalk and used them. Considering it may take some effort to figure out current owners and contact info, what's the right thing to do.
I would appreciate any thoughts on this. HornColumbia ( talk) 23:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
It came up in some CT NHRP related discussion, that stated "period of significance" information could be useful for some purposes. I don't have much expectation for it, but does anyone think it would it be useful to add Period of significance field to the NRHP infobox, and, if Elkman agrees, to have it included in Elkman-suggested infoboxes?
Background: I've often noticed the period of significance info that NRHP.COM provides. For one CT NHRP it gives "Period of Significance: 1700-1749, 1750-1799, 1800-1824, 1825-1849, 1850-1874, 1875-1899, 1900-1924, 1925-1949". But actually I don't get what that means, and in general I don't understand what is recorded for dates in the National Register's NRIS database. I have viewed the NRHP.COM's "Period of Significance" field information to be possibly unreliable, possibly an unjustified fabrication. Like there could be two significant dates given in two NRIS fields, such as one in 1705 and one in 1932, and then the the NRHP.COM programmer went on to set up wikipedia-like categories for date ranges of 25 years, and was without justification assuming that all the periods inbetween are significant. Also, I do not understand the correspondence between any date information in an NRHP document vs. what is shown for periods in the NRHP.COM. Unlike other fields like area and coordinates and name, there is no required field in NRHP applications for this information. Is there any way for an NRHP applicant to state that one period is significant, then a following period is not, then a later period is significant again? Nyttend noted to me that "I downloaded the main .dbf database, and its key-to-the-rest-of-the-files file notes that there's a "Period of Significance" column in one of the .dbf files. I don't have that .dbf for some reason (perhaps I deleted it by accident?), but at least I can tell you that the idea of "Period of Significance" is known by the NRIS."
Any comments? doncram ( talk) 18:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE
Enter the dates for one or more periods of time when the property attained the significance qualifying it for National Register listing. Some periods of significance are as brief as a single year. Many, however, span many years and consist of beginning and closing dates. Combine overlapping periods and enter them as one longer period of significance.
DEFINITION OF PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE
Period of significance is the length of time when a property was associated with important events, activities, or persons, or attained the characteristics which qualify it for National Register listing. Period of significance usually begins with the date when significant activities or events began giving the property its historic significance; this is often a date of construction. For prehistoric properties, the period of significance is the broad span of time about which the site or district is likely to provide information; it is often the period associated with a particular cultural group.
For periods in history, enter one year or a continuous span of years:
1928
1875 - 1888
For periods in prehistory , enter the range of time by millennia.
8000 - 6000 B.C.
Base the period of significance on specific events directly related to the significance of the property, for example, the date of construction for a building significant for its design or the length of time a mill operated and contributed to local industry.
Enter one period of significance in each blank on the form , placing the ones most important to the property first. Use a continuation sheet, if more space is needed. Complete this item for all properties, even if the period is less than one year.
GUIDELINES FOR SELECTING THE PERIODS OF SIGNIFICANCE
Criterion A : For the site of an important event, such as a pivotal five-month labor strike, the period of significance is the time when the event occurred. For properties associated with historic trends, such as commercial development, the period of significance is the span of time when the property actively contributed to the trend.
Criterion B : The period of significance for a property significant for Criterion B is usually the length of time the property was associated with the important person.
Criterion C : For architecturally significant properties, the period of significance is the date of construction and/or the dates of any significant alterations and additions.
Criterion D : The period of significance for an archeological site is the estimated time when it was occupied or used for reasons related to its importance, for example, 3000-2500 B.C.
ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES
The property must possess historic integrity for all periods of significance entered.
Continued use or activity does not necessarily justify continuing the period of significance. The period of significance is based upon the time when the property made the contributions or achieved the character on which significance is based.
Fifty years ago is used as the closing date for periods of significance where activities begun historically continued to have importance and no more specific date can be defined to end the historic period. (Events and activities occurring within the past 50 years must be exceptionally important to be recognized as "historic" and to justify extending a period of significance beyond the limit of 50 years ago.)
SIGNIFICANT DATES
Enter the year of any events, associations, construction, or alterations qualifying the property for National Register listing or adding to its significance. A property may have several dates of significance; all of them, however, must fall within the periods ofsignificance. Enter one date in each blank, placing those most important to the property first. Use a continuation sheet for additional entries.
Some properties with a period of significance spanning many years may not have any specific dates of significance. In these cases, enter "N/A."
DEFINITION OF SIGNIFICANT DATE
A significant date is the year when one or more major events directly contributing to the significance of a historic property occurred. Examples include:
construction of an architecturally significant building opening of an important transportation route
alteration of a building that contributes to its architectural importance
residency of an important person
GUIDELINES FOR IDENTIFYING SIGNIFICANT DATES
The property must have historic integrity for all the significant dates entered.
The beginning and closing dates of a period of significance are "significant dates" only if they mark specific events directly related to the significance of the property, for example, the date of construction that also marked the beginning of an important individual's residency, or the closing of a mine that ended a community's growth.
For a property significant for Criterion C, enter the date of the construction or alterations through which the property achieved its importance. Enter the dates of alterations only if they contribute to the property's significance.
For districts , enter construction dates of only those buildings that individually had an impact on the character of the district as a whole. Enter dates of events for which the district as a whole and not individual buildings is significant, for example, the opening of a trolley line that spurred a community's suburban development
Bulletin 16a
Einbierbitte (
talk)
17:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
In case you were wondering, I received the following message from the NPS when I inquired about not being able to pull up pages on the NRHP website ...
"We are getting a new server later this week. The old one went out with a bang a week before we were to replace it.
"We are sorry for the difficulty this has caused you, and the public at large."
... and a few minutes later, I received this message ...
"An older version of our website is up now--I hope this helps."
-- sanfranman59 ( talk) 01:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
User:Orlady has identified a possibly-widespread issue of NRHP historic district (HD) areas being identified as 10x larger in area than they actually are. This comes up at Talk:Norris District in Tennessee, other NRHP HDs in Tennessee, and one or more NRHP HDs in Connecticut. I don't yet understand how there could be a 10x error in NRHP HD areas. Is this just limited to some programming error at NRHP.COM, a private site, or is there a fundamental NRHP's NRIS database error? The NRIS database interfaces are poor and don't reflect all that is available in the database download that Elkman and NRHP.COM rely upon. If there is a general, widespread error, this is important to understand. But since the Elkman NRHP infobox generator does not include an area field, this only will apply to relatively few NRHP HD articles, i believe. doncram ( talk) 06:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The NRIS .mdb file available for download has acreages listed correctly to the first decimal point. It appears to be a systematic data transcription error by nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com. -- Polaron | Talk 14:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I'm not sure how best to handle the factor of 10 error in articles. Certainly the erroneous info should be corrected. If the NRHP.COM source is cited in an article, that could be removed entirely if all info can be sourced from somewhere else. If the NRHP.COM source is needed, perhaps use a template describing the error? Am trying use now of a draft template, Template:Nrhpdotcom factorof10error, to state text that can be repeated within a parenthetical note in NRHP.COM footnotes. Example use in this version of Brookfield Center Historic District article. I think the existence of the error in the NRHP.COM source should be stated, but it is awkward that there is no other source available to describe the error. doncram ( talk) 14:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Because the NRHP.COM source is in fact the source for acreage of many NRHP HDs in articles, it should be credited. I suggest the current "state of the art" could be improved, but it is as in the current article for Wilder Village Historic District. It displays as: "^ "VERMONT - Windsor County - Historic Districts". NationalRegisterOfHistoricPlaces.Com, a private website reporting public domain National Register information (In 2009, the NationalRegisterOfHistoricPlaces.Com website reports areas of NRHP historic districts that are incorrect, larger by a factor of 10 than what the National Register's NRIS database reports, apparently due to a programming error at the private website)."
Ideally the long parenthetical could be edited down, but centrally in the template that generates that long phrase, not in each of dozens or hundreds of articles that use this source.
To apply in articles, copy-paste the following:
<ref name=nrhpdotcom>{{cite web|url=http://www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com/__ST__/__County__/districts.html |title=__State__ - ____ County - Historic districts |publisher=NationalRegisterOfHistoricPlaces.Com, a private website reporting public domain National Register information ({{nrhpdotcom factorof10error}}) }}</ref>
and then edit replace __ST__ by 2 letter state code, and otherwise fix State and County wording.
doncram (
talk)
01:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Pointless bickering collapsed. Acroterion (talk) 15:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
FILENAME FIELDNAME STATUS RELATION MEANING COMMENTS PROPMAIN ACRE O Acreage < than 1 acre .9, decimal implied. Not computed with a GIS--you may want to.
| area =
is used for acreage. Read the
documentation for more info.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
21:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I have reopened this question on the Lighthouse Project talk page. Jim . . . . Jameslwoodward ( talk) 11:12, 24 August 2009 (UTC)
I've been questioned on the correctness of our common usage of the nris reference in Elkman-based infoboxes, e.g. as in Garfield_School (Brunswick, New_York). Wadester16 points out to me that "the link, though, doesn't really offer the information cited", which is true.
The nris reference used (<ref name="nris">{{cite web|url=http://www.nr.nps.gov/|title=National Register Information System|date=2009-03-13|work=National Register of Historic Places|publisher=National Park Service}}</ref>) is in fact what has been used for info from the NRIS download that User:Elkman serves up. It is the reference suggested in Elkman output. Wadester is correct, though, that the National Register's own interface does not give access to all the info in their own database, in particular not to certain fields included in Elkman's interface. It would perhaps be better if we specifically referenced the Elkman download in a different way than has been practice.
There are several major interfaces to NRIS data which should perhaps be cited differently:
Actually i think we should specifically cite the interface that we have actually used in getting information, which would often involve crediting Elkman's system more specifically than has been our practice. Others' thoughts? doncram ( talk) 19:06, 18 August 2009 (UTC)
I am unfamiliar with this project. I stumbled across Sudbury Center Historic District and my first reaction was, shouldn't this be merged into Sudbury, Massachusetts? I know that lots of historic places would not otherwise be captured in detail if they were just merged into a parent article, but in this case, wouldn't a lot of the information (should this ever be more than a stub) be redundant to info that could also easily be in the larger article? As a subheading-and not even a long one-for example? I'm wondering what the rationale is on a situation like this. Thanks! Surfer83 ( talk) 22:18, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
By the way, to provide a simple answer to the question: Sudbury's Historic Districts lists several other historic districts within the town: King Philip Historic District, Wayside Inn Historic Districts, and George Pitts Tavern Historic District. The Sudbury Center Historic District is not coterminous with the town. And the article on Sudbury Center Historic District, when it was created, should have included at least a little bit of context to tell the reader which parts of the village were included and why. -- Elkman (Elkspeak) 04:03, 26 August 2009 (UTC)
The Birch Bayh Federal Building & U.S. Courthouse is up. I'm sure it needs a template and some evaluation. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:49, 30 August 2009 (UTC)
Also, here's the Eldon B. Mahon United States Courthouse. Cheers! bd2412 T 03:38, 1 September 2009 (UTC)
First Roumanian-American congregation is a Featured Article Candidate. Comments welcome here. Jayjg (talk) 21:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
Hello all, I'm newer to this project, so I hope this isn't already discussed elsewhere. I've been taking photos for NRHP pages in my local Boone County, Missouri area. Several of the sites are private residences. I talked to the homeowner of one of these sites and he didn't have a problem with me taking photos of his house or uploading them to the wiki commons. I've taken photographs of other houses from the street without talking to homeowners. I haven't yet used any of these. My question is, in cases of private residences, have you contacted the homeowners and asked permission to photograph their houses, or have you just taken some shots from the sidewalk and used them. Considering it may take some effort to figure out current owners and contact info, what's the right thing to do.
I would appreciate any thoughts on this. HornColumbia ( talk) 23:45, 7 September 2009 (UTC)
It came up in some CT NHRP related discussion, that stated "period of significance" information could be useful for some purposes. I don't have much expectation for it, but does anyone think it would it be useful to add Period of significance field to the NRHP infobox, and, if Elkman agrees, to have it included in Elkman-suggested infoboxes?
Background: I've often noticed the period of significance info that NRHP.COM provides. For one CT NHRP it gives "Period of Significance: 1700-1749, 1750-1799, 1800-1824, 1825-1849, 1850-1874, 1875-1899, 1900-1924, 1925-1949". But actually I don't get what that means, and in general I don't understand what is recorded for dates in the National Register's NRIS database. I have viewed the NRHP.COM's "Period of Significance" field information to be possibly unreliable, possibly an unjustified fabrication. Like there could be two significant dates given in two NRIS fields, such as one in 1705 and one in 1932, and then the the NRHP.COM programmer went on to set up wikipedia-like categories for date ranges of 25 years, and was without justification assuming that all the periods inbetween are significant. Also, I do not understand the correspondence between any date information in an NRHP document vs. what is shown for periods in the NRHP.COM. Unlike other fields like area and coordinates and name, there is no required field in NRHP applications for this information. Is there any way for an NRHP applicant to state that one period is significant, then a following period is not, then a later period is significant again? Nyttend noted to me that "I downloaded the main .dbf database, and its key-to-the-rest-of-the-files file notes that there's a "Period of Significance" column in one of the .dbf files. I don't have that .dbf for some reason (perhaps I deleted it by accident?), but at least I can tell you that the idea of "Period of Significance" is known by the NRIS."
Any comments? doncram ( talk) 18:54, 8 September 2009 (UTC)
PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE
Enter the dates for one or more periods of time when the property attained the significance qualifying it for National Register listing. Some periods of significance are as brief as a single year. Many, however, span many years and consist of beginning and closing dates. Combine overlapping periods and enter them as one longer period of significance.
DEFINITION OF PERIOD OF SIGNIFICANCE
Period of significance is the length of time when a property was associated with important events, activities, or persons, or attained the characteristics which qualify it for National Register listing. Period of significance usually begins with the date when significant activities or events began giving the property its historic significance; this is often a date of construction. For prehistoric properties, the period of significance is the broad span of time about which the site or district is likely to provide information; it is often the period associated with a particular cultural group.
For periods in history, enter one year or a continuous span of years:
1928
1875 - 1888
For periods in prehistory , enter the range of time by millennia.
8000 - 6000 B.C.
Base the period of significance on specific events directly related to the significance of the property, for example, the date of construction for a building significant for its design or the length of time a mill operated and contributed to local industry.
Enter one period of significance in each blank on the form , placing the ones most important to the property first. Use a continuation sheet, if more space is needed. Complete this item for all properties, even if the period is less than one year.
GUIDELINES FOR SELECTING THE PERIODS OF SIGNIFICANCE
Criterion A : For the site of an important event, such as a pivotal five-month labor strike, the period of significance is the time when the event occurred. For properties associated with historic trends, such as commercial development, the period of significance is the span of time when the property actively contributed to the trend.
Criterion B : The period of significance for a property significant for Criterion B is usually the length of time the property was associated with the important person.
Criterion C : For architecturally significant properties, the period of significance is the date of construction and/or the dates of any significant alterations and additions.
Criterion D : The period of significance for an archeological site is the estimated time when it was occupied or used for reasons related to its importance, for example, 3000-2500 B.C.
ADDITIONAL GUIDELINES
The property must possess historic integrity for all periods of significance entered.
Continued use or activity does not necessarily justify continuing the period of significance. The period of significance is based upon the time when the property made the contributions or achieved the character on which significance is based.
Fifty years ago is used as the closing date for periods of significance where activities begun historically continued to have importance and no more specific date can be defined to end the historic period. (Events and activities occurring within the past 50 years must be exceptionally important to be recognized as "historic" and to justify extending a period of significance beyond the limit of 50 years ago.)
SIGNIFICANT DATES
Enter the year of any events, associations, construction, or alterations qualifying the property for National Register listing or adding to its significance. A property may have several dates of significance; all of them, however, must fall within the periods ofsignificance. Enter one date in each blank, placing those most important to the property first. Use a continuation sheet for additional entries.
Some properties with a period of significance spanning many years may not have any specific dates of significance. In these cases, enter "N/A."
DEFINITION OF SIGNIFICANT DATE
A significant date is the year when one or more major events directly contributing to the significance of a historic property occurred. Examples include:
construction of an architecturally significant building opening of an important transportation route
alteration of a building that contributes to its architectural importance
residency of an important person
GUIDELINES FOR IDENTIFYING SIGNIFICANT DATES
The property must have historic integrity for all the significant dates entered.
The beginning and closing dates of a period of significance are "significant dates" only if they mark specific events directly related to the significance of the property, for example, the date of construction that also marked the beginning of an important individual's residency, or the closing of a mine that ended a community's growth.
For a property significant for Criterion C, enter the date of the construction or alterations through which the property achieved its importance. Enter the dates of alterations only if they contribute to the property's significance.
For districts , enter construction dates of only those buildings that individually had an impact on the character of the district as a whole. Enter dates of events for which the district as a whole and not individual buildings is significant, for example, the opening of a trolley line that spurred a community's suburban development
Bulletin 16a
Einbierbitte (
talk)
17:57, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
In case you were wondering, I received the following message from the NPS when I inquired about not being able to pull up pages on the NRHP website ...
"We are getting a new server later this week. The old one went out with a bang a week before we were to replace it.
"We are sorry for the difficulty this has caused you, and the public at large."
... and a few minutes later, I received this message ...
"An older version of our website is up now--I hope this helps."
-- sanfranman59 ( talk) 01:14, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
User:Orlady has identified a possibly-widespread issue of NRHP historic district (HD) areas being identified as 10x larger in area than they actually are. This comes up at Talk:Norris District in Tennessee, other NRHP HDs in Tennessee, and one or more NRHP HDs in Connecticut. I don't yet understand how there could be a 10x error in NRHP HD areas. Is this just limited to some programming error at NRHP.COM, a private site, or is there a fundamental NRHP's NRIS database error? The NRIS database interfaces are poor and don't reflect all that is available in the database download that Elkman and NRHP.COM rely upon. If there is a general, widespread error, this is important to understand. But since the Elkman NRHP infobox generator does not include an area field, this only will apply to relatively few NRHP HD articles, i believe. doncram ( talk) 06:10, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
The NRIS .mdb file available for download has acreages listed correctly to the first decimal point. It appears to be a systematic data transcription error by nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com. -- Polaron | Talk 14:11, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
(outdent) I'm not sure how best to handle the factor of 10 error in articles. Certainly the erroneous info should be corrected. If the NRHP.COM source is cited in an article, that could be removed entirely if all info can be sourced from somewhere else. If the NRHP.COM source is needed, perhaps use a template describing the error? Am trying use now of a draft template, Template:Nrhpdotcom factorof10error, to state text that can be repeated within a parenthetical note in NRHP.COM footnotes. Example use in this version of Brookfield Center Historic District article. I think the existence of the error in the NRHP.COM source should be stated, but it is awkward that there is no other source available to describe the error. doncram ( talk) 14:00, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
Because the NRHP.COM source is in fact the source for acreage of many NRHP HDs in articles, it should be credited. I suggest the current "state of the art" could be improved, but it is as in the current article for Wilder Village Historic District. It displays as: "^ "VERMONT - Windsor County - Historic Districts". NationalRegisterOfHistoricPlaces.Com, a private website reporting public domain National Register information (In 2009, the NationalRegisterOfHistoricPlaces.Com website reports areas of NRHP historic districts that are incorrect, larger by a factor of 10 than what the National Register's NRIS database reports, apparently due to a programming error at the private website)."
Ideally the long parenthetical could be edited down, but centrally in the template that generates that long phrase, not in each of dozens or hundreds of articles that use this source.
To apply in articles, copy-paste the following:
<ref name=nrhpdotcom>{{cite web|url=http://www.nationalregisterofhistoricplaces.com/__ST__/__County__/districts.html |title=__State__ - ____ County - Historic districts |publisher=NationalRegisterOfHistoricPlaces.Com, a private website reporting public domain National Register information ({{nrhpdotcom factorof10error}}) }}</ref>
and then edit replace __ST__ by 2 letter state code, and otherwise fix State and County wording.
doncram (
talk)
01:10, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
Pointless bickering collapsed. Acroterion (talk) 15:44, 28 August 2009 (UTC) |
---|
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
|
FILENAME FIELDNAME STATUS RELATION MEANING COMMENTS PROPMAIN ACRE O Acreage < than 1 acre .9, decimal implied. Not computed with a GIS--you may want to.
| area =
is used for acreage. Read the
documentation for more info.--
Dudemanfellabra (
talk)
21:18, 27 August 2009 (UTC)