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WikiProject Music/Music genres task force Discussion - Guidelines - Stubs - Infobox - Footers - Lists - Portal |
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There is a discussion taking place about whether or not to keep, delete or retarget {{ WikiProject Music}} at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2018_April_28#Template:WikiProject_Music. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 13:40, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place about whether templates (primarily infoboxes) for funk and closely related genres should use a different color than the orange currently used for soul music, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force/Colours#Should Funk be a different colour than Soul? Life of Tau 20:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
There is an RFC on removing genres from infoboxes at WT:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Request for comment on removing genres from musician, album, and song infoboxes — BillHPike ( talk, contribs) 22:25, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I have been perusing the discussions on this page, and also this one, about colors for the music genre infobox. Someone please help me out here because I can find no actual rules to follow and it all seems a matter of opinion about what genres sound similar to each other. I am working on a new genre article, which will be about rock n' roll in a non-Western country in the 1960s-70s. Is there an appropriate color group for my infobox? --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( Talk| Contribs) 15:53, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
There is a RfC about the scope of the hip house term at Talk:Hip house#RfC: Is hip house a present day trend? RoseCherry64 ( talk) 21:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello, I recently created this new music genre article: Cambodian rock (1960s-70). Everyone here is welcome to check it out and make contributions. I am not concerned about the current state of the text, but I have been forced to create an article that is almost a giant wall of text with no photos of the people being discussed. My early versions of the article had photos of many of the relevant musicians, but they were mostly non-free/copyrighted images, and Wikipedia's non-free police subjected me to a highly inflexible and disheartening tirade about how such images should (key word: should) only be used once in Wikipedia, and typically at a musician's main page. This makes most non-free musician images ineligible for genre articles where the exact same person is prominently discussed. So if anyone can help out, please throw in some ideas on how best to illustrate this article. Thanks in advance. --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( Talk| Contribs) 19:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
At Talk:Sophisti-pop, a major theme of the various threads is the significance that this was not regarded as a genre at the time, that the disparate acts were not regarded as connected and that the term for and concept of this genre was not coined until a couple of decades or so later. Understandably, it proved difficult to find references to verify this negative and the article had settled without these details being expressed therein. Ironically, a user that had never engaged in the talk discussions but was diligent in removing the notion from the article, fixed a dead link to a WP:RS, citing unrelated material in the article, that also made a point of noting the retrospective nature of the term. The issue of sourcing resolved, I added it back but, though the veracity seems now to have been accepted, it is still being removed, with new and questionable edit summary rationales and still without engagement at talk. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 20:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
I've submitted an RfC re: the categorization of all works (albums, songs) by artists by genre.
Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music#RfC_on_categorizing_all_works_by_an_artist_by_genre.
Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:30, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Rock music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Rock music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 03:08, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Country music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Country music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 18:01, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Electronic music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Electronic music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 11:54, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Soft Rock is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Soft Rock until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 23:21, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Punk rock is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Punk rock until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 23:42, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Is is acceptable to use "U.S." and "UK" in genre infoboxes? For an infobox, it seems that, as a space savings measure, it is appropriate to use a commonly accepted acronym instead. This would even seem to be preferred to writing out the full names "United States and United Kingdom" when both appear in the same infobox. This question arose during the following:
When removing inappropriate content to Texas blues
[1], I changed |cultural_origins=
from "
c. 1920s,
Texas, United States" to ""
c. 1920s,
Texas, U.S." This was reverted with the explanation "Per convention". I restored "U.S." with the explanation: "
MOS:ACRO includes 'For these commonly-referred-to entities, the full name does not need to be written out in full on first use, nor provided on first use in parentheses after the full name if written out ... US or U.S.', plus it's in an infobox".
[2] This was reverted with the explanation: "Nothing in
MOS:ACRO prohibits or advises against writing out the name in full, and it later states that doing so allows for commonality. Writing out "United States" and "United Kingdom" is the established convention in music genre infoboxes; if this is something you believe should be changed, you should make your case at
WT:GENRE or
WT:WPMU rather than attempting to alter one specific instance out of hundreds."
[3]
In looking through the talk page archives, I don't see that there a consensus has been established for this view or that it has been discussed. Additionally, no specific guidance for |cultual_origins=
(or |stylistic_origins=
) is given in
Template:Infobox music genre#Parameters. Is it in fact the "established convention" for genre music boxes to write out the full name "United States" and "United Kingdom"? If so, what is the reason for disapproving something clearly allowed under the
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations guideline?
— Ojorojo ( talk) 16:26, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
17:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC){{
Infobox music genre}}
. I just checked the first (alphabetical listings are effectively random for this purpose) 14
pages using that infobox and found that of those that mention a geographical location,
only one used an acronym. Not a thorough check, but it is an indication of a conventional use of full geo-location names. "Convention" may not exactly equate to "consensus", but it might prove a fair start.
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
18:19, 29 July 2019 (UTC)"
for inches (
All You Need Is Love (the JAMs song),
Baby Boy (Beyoncé song),
Fuck the Millennium,
Hey Baby (No Doubt song), etc.) although
MOS:UNITSYMBOLS#Specific units specifically says "Do not use ′ (′), ″ (″), apostrophe (') or quote (")" for inches and feet. Although this has been incorporated into the template documentation for several years, editors still use ", probably because they have seen it so often, including in FAs and GAs.if there is agreement on the issue, rather than just passive acceptance ... perhaps it should be formalized- I couldn't agree more. However, we do have WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS, which effectively states that agreement implicitly exists if no one has explicitly disagreed, making this stuff less straightforward; a wider and deeper discussion will be needed if implicit consensus is found to disagree with the relevant guidelines and policies. If policies or guidelines are blatantly being widely ignored, and inline with WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS, all the offending errors could be fixed and the result be considered the new implicit agreement as long as the edits are not contested. That would be great fun - not.
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
17:08, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
|cultural_origins=
countries be restricted to full names, such as "United States" and "United Kingdom", or is it acceptable to also use the acronyms "U.S." and "UK" (with or without periods) as allowed by
MOS:ACRO#Exceptions? Whatever is decided can be added to the
template documentation/guidance. —
Ojorojo (
talk) 15:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
17:17, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I have done most of the work needed to realise a formatting and standardisation template for short genre descriptions and would like other interested editor's feedback regarding its possible use before creating a proper template (it's currently in my sandbox).
{{
sgd}}
invokes
Module:User:Fred Gandt/sgd which in-turn seeks available descriptions from
User:Fred Gandt/sandbox/Sgd/list – an easily editable
description listQuestions I'd like to hear other's answers to are:
Feel free to provide any other feedback that comes to mind. I have cross-posted this request for feedback at
Talk:List of popular music genres#Template in development - request for feedback.
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
15:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Alternative rock is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Alternative rock until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 20:20, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Canadian Country Music group. Charted, but sources and sourcing is thin. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 15:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.
We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma ( talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
There are comments at Talk:Acid house#Assessment and tags which may be of interest to members. Otr500 ( talk) 15:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
The questions I hope are resolved by this RfC are: 1. Does an artist need to agree with a National Socialist black metal labeling to be labeled NSBM? 2. In cases where external sources disagree about an NSBM labeling, do we consider the band NSBM or not? -- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Argument from 3family6: There have been rather long-standing content disputes regarding the genre of National Socialist black metal and the labeling of such artists. The core of the dispute seems to whether or not a band has to explicitly call themselves NSBM in order to be labeled such or not, or if labeling as such from independent analysts or reviewers is sufficient. Related to this is the issue is cases where a particular band is labeled NSBM because the membership of a particular band contains individuals who have performed music in other bands that are described as NSBM. In short, are external references sufficient, or does a band itself have to consider itself NSBM? Related to this, there are some bands, such as Khors, where some analysts and reviewers have explicitly and clearly labeled the band as NSBM (and in the case of Khors, considered it part of white power music movements, but others do not consider the band to be part of this because the lyrics and themes from the band are not overtly fascist or otherwise far-right. I've seen similar conflicts with other labels that are based primarily on an ideological, ethnic, or especially, religious affiliation, such Christian hip hop or Christian metal, or even Viking metal. Generally, consensus for these genres is that if there are some reliable sources that label the artist as such, even if other sources dispute that labeling, that is sufficient for inclusion as part of that genre, but making sure that the dispute among sources is mentioned on the artist's article. This dispute became much more heated due to my ongoing work on the National Socialist black metal article. I created a list article of NSBM artists in which every artist listed is supported by at least one citation to an independent, third-party reliable source. Concurrent with that, I added listed bands to Category:National Socialist black metal bands, and included mentions of the genre labeling, with citations to reliable sources, in the respective articles. Various IP and new user accounts challenged these edits and removed the cited content without providing rationale based in policy or guidelines. The article on Khors, where this was especially occurring, was temporarily semi-protected at my request because of disruptive editing. After that lifted, Violeance and I got into an edit war. A discussion on Violeance's talk page did not fully resolve the dispute, as they oppose my inclusion of NSBM in the infobox for the band. I requested an RfC, Violeance took this to ANI. The judgment there by EdJohnston was that my edit warring extends beyond just Khors but to the entire topic of Category:National Socialist black metal. They suggested that I start an RfC or else risk being blocked.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
Argument from Violence: According to the wiki page
National Socialist black metal itself, it is “a political movement within black metal music that promotes neo-Nazism and similar ideologies”.
I. So, my points in regard to bands “labeling” are the following: 1. If the music (lyrics) of the band does not reflect any NS ideas; 2. If the band members have never pronounced any nazi statements; 3. If the band members have never called for any injustice, including injustice in regard to other people of any gender, race, nation, etc.; 4. If the band members didn’t show any interest to political movement (especially in regard to the topic discussed); 5. If the band members doesn’t belong to any social and political parties; 6. If the band members were pronouncing clearly, they have nothing to do with this stuff. What would be the reason behind then “labeling” the band Nsbm? How it would be any possible to apply unverified rumors, someone’s malice, single assumptions and conjectures of private individuals to “label” anybody in such serious accusations? I did my little research on this issue among some people who are metal music amateurs and some who are not, so the statement above reflects the common séance from both groups of people: those who are approximately familiar with this theme, and those who are not aware much of this subject matter.
II. Secondly, my guess, by being a “nazi representative”, you have to be “proud of it”, seek to revive and implement the ideology of nazism. Is it not true? So you would constantly repeat your “philosophy” around, claim it, and stand for it. This is how social and political movements are working, usually. Again, this is the common knowledge speaks.
III. Thirdly, many metal music researches from the scientific world stated the ongoing contempt to the metal music bands and its amateurs seeing them as “others” (and THIS IS a nazi ideology at work!). I quote one of those: “Controversies over heavy metal are seen as social reactions to perceived deviance: starting with targeting metal music as one of the threatening genres in the 1980s at the national level in the USA, and continuing presently with a censorship by Christian authorities, and political repression and societal stigmatization in Islamic countries” (Hjelm, 2011:7,8,13, journals.equinoxpub.com/index.php/PMH/article/view/14426). I want to believe metal music already went through this, and this is not those times anymore.
IV. Fourthly, let the Musicians do their music they are great at. Musical Artists do their piece of art, because they are talented to do so, and to pour out their emotions; for music amateurs to absorb this piece of art and to pour their emotions too. So this Art shall be extremely respected. This I am telling you, as a long term metal music amateur of many metal music genres.
V. Fifthly, I will repeat it over and over, my strong believe that each single person shall be protected from the persecution on the base of their race, nation, religion, gender, place of living, social position, etc. The same applies to Artists. Violeance ( talk) 20:12, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
This is due to fact that labelling the band to the NSBM groups, means that you accuse members of the band in neo-nazism, and for such accusations, you need very strong basic of such evidence occurred. If, objectively, in a band’s actions, nsbm features never showed: never in designing, lyrics, merchandise products, etc. Agree with the one who wrote: “ if the band members have never pronounced any nazi statements, the band members have never called for any injustice, including injustice in regard to other people of any gender, race, nation, etc.; The band members didn’t show any interest to political movement (especially in regard to the topic discussed); The band members doesn’t belong to any social and political parties; The band members were pronouncing clearly, they have nothing to do with this stuff. What would be the reason behind then “labeling” the band Nsbm?”
May be the band labelled NSBM if, previously, one or several members did play in the bands with ambiguous reputation? Nobody labels Riverside band NSBM, because of their drummer and keyboardist were playing in Kataxu, Dark Fury, Thunderbolt, Sunwheel previously. You can’t label Dimmu Borgir NSMB band, though their recent drummer Daray played in Sunwheel. Nobody does that for Behemoth, though on their first album Rob Darken from Graveland was an invited singer.
In the case with Khors example, the link where the band was mentioned in such context is dated 2005, though the band has started its activity in 2004 only. The reviewer’s assumption of relating new band to NSBM, was based on info that keyboardist for this album was invited from Nokturnal Mortum. This website also marked that all opinions expressed in [1] are opinions held at the time of writing by the individuals expressing them, and they do not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone else, past or present. Most likely a few repeating, based on this publication, has become this reason of assuming that band has relations to NSBM things.
My conclusion: if the band never pronounced any nazi statements, didn’t show any political involvement and interest to it, it was never shown designing, lyrics, merchandise products of band, it can’t be labeled. And the most important things NSBM it is not about music. NSBM is about black metal music with Neo-nazi, right-wing or racist meanings. OverrideTheOverture ( talk) 15:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
“ | The album has also been grouped under what would have been at the time a virtually non-existent NSBM "scene". A later demo under the name Birkenau, which wound up on the infamous _Night and Fog_ compilation, seems to have caused much of the confusion. None of _Wandering_'s brief, fragmented lyrics and non- threatening images of landscapes evokes a political so much as internal, contemplative mood in the vein of _Filosofem_. | ” |
References
What is the current view on citing genre based material published by Bandcamp, personally I think WP:COISOURCE applies, it's not an independent source because of its commercial nature; what it publishes is essentially promotional content for the music it hosts. Views on this? Can discuss here also. Acousmana ( talk) 16:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
As the originator of the Nouvelle Chanson page, I'd like to thank all those contributors who have redesigned my page and made it proper.
When originally looking at the music of the Swedish artist Ane Brun, Who had spent years busking in France to develop her music, I became aware of the genre. As I could find no article on it, I created the page. There was very little material available for research. The main source was an article from the French Embassy in Canberra, which actually said that for the first time the French were creating decent pop music!
I wrote to Carla Bruni suggesting that France promoted the genre and received a polite reply from her secretary that she was 'aware of the situation', something like that.
Thank you all again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indigocat ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
We are discussing whether or not a genre should be interpreted on the article for a Kanye West song. If anyone could jump in to discuss, that would be great. The discussion is here. Andrzejbanas ( talk) 17:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
For more notice, a discussion that may result in the removal of |instruments=
from the infobox has been started at
WT:WPMU#Typical instruments parameter in Template:Infobox music genre. Please add your comments there. —
Ojorojo (
talk) 17:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Can somebody write up an article about the 'Cosmic Scouse' and 'Scallydelica' music scenes? [1] [2] [3] Madchester has got a large article linked to Psychedelic music and Alternative rock on Wikipedia...but you only get Cosmic Scouse mentioned in random articles such as The Bandwagon Club, even though 20 years ago it cropped up quite a bit in the music press. On the other hand random sub-genres like ' Hipster hop' and ' Wonky pop', which may have only been dreamt up/noted by a couple of random journalists (or, in the case of the latter, been a bit of a failure if the idea was to create a lasting scene that was much more than a couple of hit albums by MIKA) are deemed worthy of inclusion.
References
The article Comedy music has been significantly expanded and should be considered for reassessment. Thank you. AnggotheManggo ( talk) 04:24, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Category:Turbo-folk compilation albums requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 15:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Category:Chalga compilation albums requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 16:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi this page Draft:Shadab_Siddiqui is not yet reviewed, so can any editors/reviewer can look into this? -- 111.88.207.50 ( talk) 11:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
I would like to hear your opinion on removing colors for small regional genres and assigning new colors (reassigning old ones) for larger categories. Discussion. Solidest ( talk) 18:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello, would anyone be able to assess the new article ' Afro-Caribbean Music'? I wrote it for my university class and would love some feedback and assistance if possible? Thank you, Ddra5202 ( talk) 00:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the talk page about including genres in the infobox of the article on Quique. Any contributions would be helpful. Andrzejbanas ( talk) 18:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I created the 2nd FA review on heavy metal music. Please your contributions to the article are welcome. -- George Ho ( talk) 06:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Draft:Boyz on Block Draft:Time (Five album) Can someone approve or reject these please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Basil4517 ( talk • contribs) 05:02, 23 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:331F:C301:24A5:F9CA:5C6E:B737 ( talk)
I suggested adding a project template for all articles tagged with music genres (and other related classes) on Wikidata. The details are here: Wikipedia:Bot requests#Adding WikiProject Music genres template to 1.6k genre articles. Feel free to discuss the request there.
P.S. Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force/Assessment is now tagged historical, but the template itself is actively used. Shouldn't we remove this tag and update this page a bit, leaving it as a policy summary only? Solidest ( talk) 15:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Are there clear, unambigious, algorithmic step-by-step instructions for Wikipedia that always work that are used to distinguish between a fusion genre vs a subgenre, a subgenre vs a derivative, a derivative vs a fusion genre? The current situation is mess and the distinction (from my experience) is very often not supported by any sources. Sources, unless very specific, don't usually do phylogenetic musicology and instead use ambigious wording such as "a type of music", "a variant", "a scene" and so on.
If there is no clear, algorithmic way to determine which is which among these three, I propose merging all three fields into either "derivatives" field (in my opinion, the most objective name, as it doesn't get too detailed but is still sufficiently informative to understand what the field is about), or replacing all three with "offshots" (a little bit more colloquial term, but similarly unbiased).
That's because the current situation makes it breeding ground for genre warring and WP:OR, much as infobox color used to, until it got removed. I have myself seen numerous examples (some of which I have corrected, some I haven't) where subgenre lists list derivative (footwork listed as a subgenre of house), or fusion genres list derivatives (trance listed among fusion genres in techno), but then again, who am I to judge whether trance is techno derivative. Intuition may tell someone that since Trance is a separate genre that separated from Techno, then it is a derivative, but then again, trance article itself says that Trance formed as a fusion between Techno and New Age, so the person who originally put it to fusion genres of techno also had his point. One may argue that if subgenres have their own subgenres then they are in fact derivatives and not subgenres anymore, but it is also wrong. See Hip hop music as an example: trap is it's proper subgenre, but it has its own subgenres (say, phonk), and phonk, being a sub-subgenre of hip-hop, has its own subgenres too (drift phonk). One could argue, for instance, that fusion genre is a fusion between two or more genres (two+ parent nodes, in phylogenetic approach), while subgenre always has 1 parent node, but this is also WP:OR: for the example to the contrary, take "acid techno". The article about acid techno says that acid techno derived from "acid house" and "techno" (probably it should be a fusion genre then?), but then it is listed among subgenres (not fusion genres) in Techno article. Whoever listed it among subgenres also had his rational point of view, I suppose: one could say that acid techno is "techno with 303 acid synths".
Articles with subgenre lists do not to dellineate "fusion genres" from "subgenres" either. For instance, house music has link to "complete list of house subgenres" in infobox, however that list lists not only subgenres, but also fusion genres and even some regional variants and whatelse.
There is even more to this discussion. Namely "local scenes" and "regional scenes" fields in Infobox music genres. I have noticed (in House music), that Regional variants list "Shamstep" and some african genres (which probably) derived from house. Why are they not in "derivatives"? Nowhere in the article it is said that "Shamstep" is even house music. Example to the contrary: "Baltimore club" lists "Jersey club" and "Philly club" as derivatives, while their names suggest that they may be considered "regional variants" or "local variants" (especially Philly club, which doesn't even have a separate article). Local variants, if they are used anywhere at all, in turn, get mixed with "regional variants" or "fusion genres", down to a particular editor's taste. For instance, "Celtic hip hop" is listed as "local scene" when the article it links to ("Celtic fusion") says that it's probably akin to "Celtic metal" as it incorporates celtic influences into hip hop. At the same time "Jewish hip hop" and "Desi hip hop" and "Latin hip hop" are listed among subgenres. How is Celtic hip hop not a fusion genre (or subgenre? ;]), but a local scene? WP:OR situation.
In short, if you start digging the "fusion genres" vs. "subgenres" vs. "derivatives" (vs. "regional scenes" vs. "local scenes") as they exist right now in the wild in Wikipedia, you will immediately understand that they are breeding ground for personal opinions of Wikipedians (WP:OR), often unsupported by secondary sources. If there is no 1-to-1 algorithm to differentiate them (as it would be supported by sources), I propose
If you agree to this, I will implement all the required changes myself. Please vote 178.121.41.135 ( talk) 05:16, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Is fuzz faced a reputable site which I can cite aka are they independent and respected enough for me to be able to use in a article Goldsoldier75 ( talk) 18:53, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi. I created a draft article for music executive Elliot Grainge in my sandbox here: [4]. I’m a new Wikipedia user, and work for Elliot, which I understand is a conflict of interest according to Wikipedia policy, so I need feedback on how to improve the draft from independent editors and make sure it’s following the proper structure and guidelines. Is someone from this project available to take a look and provide feedback/comments? Thanks. Musicfan100 ( talk) 14:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Compas#Requested move 26 November 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
An article that you have been involved in editing—
Electronic dance music—has been proposed for
merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in
the merger discussion. Thank you.
AngusW🐶🐶F (
bark •
sniff) 17:59, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Could you help to disambiguate links to Maqam? It is generally better for the reader to link to specific articles rather than disambiguation pages but I do not have the expertise to know which articles the links should be going to. There are currently 71 articles (shown at Disambig fix list for Maqam) which link to this dab page. Any help appreciated.— Rod talk 11:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Nasheed#Requested move 11 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 01:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
None of these terms are synonymous. None of them were used at the same time, to describe the same things. Yet Wiki now treats them as largely interchangeable, with artists who were described as 'new romantic', 'new pop', 'synthpop', or even just 'pop' at the time getting the 'new wave' label. 'New wave', as used by most critics during the 1970s and 80s (irrespective of nationality), essentially referred to more commercialised versions of punk from the late 70s. It was largely perceived of as a thing of the past during the 1980s by most important critics, as is attested to on Wiki's own page. Among the public, at least in the UK, it was not widely used during the 80s either. The new wave page quotes a respected English journalist calling the formation of Duran Duran the 'death of new wave', yet Wikipedia now lists new wave among the band's primary genres and describes much of their music as such. The same genre mislabels are used for hundreds of other (mostly British) pop artists active during the 80s, none of whom would ever have been described as such by contemporaries. It is, I am afraid, utterly all without sense.
'New wave', the 'new romantics', and the 'new pop' were each and all distinct phenomena. All three were in one form or another reactions to the punk moment of 1976/77, but they were not the same. 'New wave' came first - it was artists like The Jam, Elvis Costello, XTC, Joe Jackson, The Specials, etc. It did include some synthesiser groups like Tubeway Army and the Buggles, but they were not the main component. It was always a broad term, but it had a short life. It went largely out of currency after 1980. This is supported by sources, quoted on both the Wiki pages for synthpop and new wave. The indiscriminate usage of 'new wave' for seemingly any and all 80s mainstream British chartpop would have struck contemporaries, as it strikes me, as utterly bizarre and not a little offensive. Artists who were described as new romantic, new pop, synthpop, or pop have been retroactively turned into 'new wave', by order of Wikipedia. As I've said, these genres were all quite distinct from new wave, and I'd be happy to hear others' definitions, but I think Wikipedia actually does a pretty good job defining each genre on its own page. You'll notice I call them genres, even though Wikipedia never includes New Romantic on genre lists. If we want to call it a fashion sensibility or cultural movement instead of a music genre, fine. But it was certainly used, at the time, as a way to define and categorise music, much like other genres. Currently, Wikipedia seems to consider 'Madchester' and 'mod revival' as 'genres', which like New Romantic were cultural/fashion movements as much as music forms (though in fact, New Romantic was actually far less vague and had a more easily definable sound than either those terms - that sound, of course, being synthpop). In any case, it's wholly incorrect to conflate the New Romantics with 'New Wave'. For now, just a few sources on that, because it's getting late:
The page British pop music (clearly written from a knowledgeable British perspective) correctly categorises 'punk and new wave' as genres of the 1970s, whilst 'New Romantic and the Second British Invasion' are defined as belonging to the 1979-1985 period. Similarly, the page British rock music has one section for 'Proto-punk, punk and new wave', and an entirely separate section for 'Electronic rock in the early 1980s' (under which are the subsections 'Synth rock', 'New Romantics', and 'The second British invasion').
Here's a 5 page piece from Rolling Stone magazine on the New Romantics (specifically Visage) from 1981 - no mention of 'new wave' (besides 'punk is dead'). Plenty of talk, though, about Bowie and electro-disco.
And here's another bit from Rolling Stone in 1981 (reprinted in another paper) about Japan, who Wikipedia defines as 'an English new wave band': 'Pity the natty Anglo-dandies of Japan. Too late for the glam-rock movement, reviled in the New Wave era, these veteran fops - led by David "The Most Beautiful Man in the World" Sylvian - would seem made to order for the age of the clothes-conscious New Romantic bands.'
'Reviled in the New Wave era,' but 'an English new wave band' in 2024 according to Wikipedia. Just like Duran Duran, I suppose. Jinglyjangle ( talk) 00:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
After encountering the latest bizarre miscategorisation of a British group as supposedly New Wave, I checked out the article's talk page to see if anyone else had noted this phenomenon on Wikipedia, and how widespread it is. Unsurprisingly they had. Engagement at that discussion has brought me here. I fully agree with Jinglyjangle's comments above.
That "Wikipedia caters to a worldwide audience" does not mean that recent/American usage of terms (if that's what it is) prevails over what are, in large part, concerns about a strong divergence in WP:ENGVAR/ MOS:TIES in regard to this terminology. That should be respected, not dismissed as "British-centric biased opinions".
VNT indeed but it seems plain that many nominally RS, in this sphere, are no such thing. Overhauling how we weight such sources may be the key to this.
Don't get me started about " sophistipop"... Mutt Lunker ( talk) 16:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
There's no need for separate articles, all we need is a variety of reliable sources to discuss it at its various angles. This isn't some sort of isolated incident, this stuff happens in music all the time. Genre is a subjective thing, and its interpretation changes over time. Back when Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco blew up in the mid-2000s, all the "traditionalists" complained that they "weren't real emo". Now the label is commonplace. When nu metal blew up in the late 1990s, all the old heavy metal fans complained that it "wasn't real metal". Johnny Cash fans don't think Luke Bryan is "real country". There's currently a movement of pop punk happening that doesn't sound much like its start up in the 1990s. It goes on and on. We're all free to have our own opinions and interpretations on it personally, but as long as we're acting as editors on Wikipedia, we need to WP:STICKTOSOURCEs, which means documenting varying viewpoints, not erasing the ones that don't meet our preferences. Sergecross73 msg me 19:48, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
Late to the party here, I know, but as a fellow Brit who grew up in this era, I share Jinglyjangle and Mutt Lunker's frustrations at what was termed "new wave" in the US... in the UK, that term was very much reserved for acts of an edgier, more experimental disposition (e.g. Elvis Costello, or Joy Division)... if you had described Culture Club or Howard Jones as "new wave" you would have been laughed out of the country, and I would be very surprised if I could find a single mention of new wave being used for these acts in the UK music press of the time. That said, I have to go along with Sergecross73 and Binksternet here, much as it pains me personally – we don't really have any choice but to use the descriptions we can find in RS... we can call them both "pop" and "new wave" if there are sources for it (and I'm sure there are) and it'll mean different things on either side of the Atlantic. Richard3120 ( talk) 22:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
There was really no consensus in favor of what they were trying to do (or even an actionable path forward even if they did) but for record keeping's sake, per here, virtually every participant on one side of the argument, outside of Matt Lunker, has been indeffed for sock puppetry. Sergecross73 msg me 18:43, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
I would be happy to have help with:
There is a discussion here about whether to move Kritika (disambiguation) to Kritika. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 22:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)
![]() | Music/Music genres task force Project‑class | ||||||
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WikiProject Music/Music genres task force Discussion - Guidelines - Stubs - Infobox - Footers - Lists - Portal |
This is the
talk page for discussing improvements to the
WikiProject Music/Music genres task force page. |
|
Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 |
There is a discussion taking place about whether or not to keep, delete or retarget {{ WikiProject Music}} at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2018_April_28#Template:WikiProject_Music. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 13:40, 30 April 2018 (UTC)
There is a discussion taking place about whether templates (primarily infoboxes) for funk and closely related genres should use a different color than the orange currently used for soul music, at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force/Colours#Should Funk be a different colour than Soul? Life of Tau 20:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
There is an RFC on removing genres from infoboxes at WT:Manual of Style/Infoboxes#Request for comment on removing genres from musician, album, and song infoboxes — BillHPike ( talk, contribs) 22:25, 26 September 2018 (UTC)
I have been perusing the discussions on this page, and also this one, about colors for the music genre infobox. Someone please help me out here because I can find no actual rules to follow and it all seems a matter of opinion about what genres sound similar to each other. I am working on a new genre article, which will be about rock n' roll in a non-Western country in the 1960s-70s. Is there an appropriate color group for my infobox? --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( Talk| Contribs) 15:53, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
There is a RfC about the scope of the hip house term at Talk:Hip house#RfC: Is hip house a present day trend? RoseCherry64 ( talk) 21:19, 24 October 2018 (UTC)
Hello, I recently created this new music genre article: Cambodian rock (1960s-70). Everyone here is welcome to check it out and make contributions. I am not concerned about the current state of the text, but I have been forced to create an article that is almost a giant wall of text with no photos of the people being discussed. My early versions of the article had photos of many of the relevant musicians, but they were mostly non-free/copyrighted images, and Wikipedia's non-free police subjected me to a highly inflexible and disheartening tirade about how such images should (key word: should) only be used once in Wikipedia, and typically at a musician's main page. This makes most non-free musician images ineligible for genre articles where the exact same person is prominently discussed. So if anyone can help out, please throw in some ideas on how best to illustrate this article. Thanks in advance. --- DOOMSDAYER520 ( Talk| Contribs) 19:41, 30 November 2018 (UTC)
At Talk:Sophisti-pop, a major theme of the various threads is the significance that this was not regarded as a genre at the time, that the disparate acts were not regarded as connected and that the term for and concept of this genre was not coined until a couple of decades or so later. Understandably, it proved difficult to find references to verify this negative and the article had settled without these details being expressed therein. Ironically, a user that had never engaged in the talk discussions but was diligent in removing the notion from the article, fixed a dead link to a WP:RS, citing unrelated material in the article, that also made a point of noting the retrospective nature of the term. The issue of sourcing resolved, I added it back but, though the veracity seems now to have been accepted, it is still being removed, with new and questionable edit summary rationales and still without engagement at talk. Mutt Lunker ( talk) 20:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)
I've submitted an RfC re: the categorization of all works (albums, songs) by artists by genre.
Please see Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Music#RfC_on_categorizing_all_works_by_an_artist_by_genre.
Thanks! --- Another Believer ( Talk) 18:30, 29 March 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Rock music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Rock music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 03:08, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Country music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Country music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 18:01, 17 May 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Electronic music is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Electronic music until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 11:54, 25 May 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Soft Rock is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Soft Rock until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 23:21, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Punk rock is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Punk rock until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 23:42, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
Is is acceptable to use "U.S." and "UK" in genre infoboxes? For an infobox, it seems that, as a space savings measure, it is appropriate to use a commonly accepted acronym instead. This would even seem to be preferred to writing out the full names "United States and United Kingdom" when both appear in the same infobox. This question arose during the following:
When removing inappropriate content to Texas blues
[1], I changed |cultural_origins=
from "
c. 1920s,
Texas, United States" to ""
c. 1920s,
Texas, U.S." This was reverted with the explanation "Per convention". I restored "U.S." with the explanation: "
MOS:ACRO includes 'For these commonly-referred-to entities, the full name does not need to be written out in full on first use, nor provided on first use in parentheses after the full name if written out ... US or U.S.', plus it's in an infobox".
[2] This was reverted with the explanation: "Nothing in
MOS:ACRO prohibits or advises against writing out the name in full, and it later states that doing so allows for commonality. Writing out "United States" and "United Kingdom" is the established convention in music genre infoboxes; if this is something you believe should be changed, you should make your case at
WT:GENRE or
WT:WPMU rather than attempting to alter one specific instance out of hundreds."
[3]
In looking through the talk page archives, I don't see that there a consensus has been established for this view or that it has been discussed. Additionally, no specific guidance for |cultual_origins=
(or |stylistic_origins=
) is given in
Template:Infobox music genre#Parameters. Is it in fact the "established convention" for genre music boxes to write out the full name "United States" and "United Kingdom"? If so, what is the reason for disapproving something clearly allowed under the
Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Abbreviations guideline?
— Ojorojo ( talk) 16:26, 29 July 2019 (UTC)
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
17:06, 29 July 2019 (UTC){{
Infobox music genre}}
. I just checked the first (alphabetical listings are effectively random for this purpose) 14
pages using that infobox and found that of those that mention a geographical location,
only one used an acronym. Not a thorough check, but it is an indication of a conventional use of full geo-location names. "Convention" may not exactly equate to "consensus", but it might prove a fair start.
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
18:19, 29 July 2019 (UTC)"
for inches (
All You Need Is Love (the JAMs song),
Baby Boy (Beyoncé song),
Fuck the Millennium,
Hey Baby (No Doubt song), etc.) although
MOS:UNITSYMBOLS#Specific units specifically says "Do not use ′ (′), ″ (″), apostrophe (') or quote (")" for inches and feet. Although this has been incorporated into the template documentation for several years, editors still use ", probably because they have seen it so often, including in FAs and GAs.if there is agreement on the issue, rather than just passive acceptance ... perhaps it should be formalized- I couldn't agree more. However, we do have WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS, which effectively states that agreement implicitly exists if no one has explicitly disagreed, making this stuff less straightforward; a wider and deeper discussion will be needed if implicit consensus is found to disagree with the relevant guidelines and policies. If policies or guidelines are blatantly being widely ignored, and inline with WP:IMPLICITCONSENSUS, all the offending errors could be fixed and the result be considered the new implicit agreement as long as the edits are not contested. That would be great fun - not.
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
17:08, 30 July 2019 (UTC)
|cultural_origins=
countries be restricted to full names, such as "United States" and "United Kingdom", or is it acceptable to also use the acronyms "U.S." and "UK" (with or without periods) as allowed by
MOS:ACRO#Exceptions? Whatever is decided can be added to the
template documentation/guidance. —
Ojorojo (
talk) 15:20, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
17:17, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I have done most of the work needed to realise a formatting and standardisation template for short genre descriptions and would like other interested editor's feedback regarding its possible use before creating a proper template (it's currently in my sandbox).
{{
sgd}}
invokes
Module:User:Fred Gandt/sgd which in-turn seeks available descriptions from
User:Fred Gandt/sandbox/Sgd/list – an easily editable
description listQuestions I'd like to hear other's answers to are:
Feel free to provide any other feedback that comes to mind. I have cross-posted this request for feedback at
Talk:List of popular music genres#Template in development - request for feedback.
Fred Gandt ·
talk ·
contribs
15:00, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Alternative rock is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.
The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Alternative rock until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.
Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America 1000 20:20, 27 September 2019 (UTC)
Canadian Country Music group. Charted, but sources and sourcing is thin. 7&6=thirteen ( ☎) 15:58, 24 October 2019 (UTC)
Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.
We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma ( talk) 04:24, 27 October 2019 (UTC)
There are comments at Talk:Acid house#Assessment and tags which may be of interest to members. Otr500 ( talk) 15:01, 2 January 2020 (UTC)
The questions I hope are resolved by this RfC are: 1. Does an artist need to agree with a National Socialist black metal labeling to be labeled NSBM? 2. In cases where external sources disagree about an NSBM labeling, do we consider the band NSBM or not? -- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 21:44, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
Argument from 3family6: There have been rather long-standing content disputes regarding the genre of National Socialist black metal and the labeling of such artists. The core of the dispute seems to whether or not a band has to explicitly call themselves NSBM in order to be labeled such or not, or if labeling as such from independent analysts or reviewers is sufficient. Related to this is the issue is cases where a particular band is labeled NSBM because the membership of a particular band contains individuals who have performed music in other bands that are described as NSBM. In short, are external references sufficient, or does a band itself have to consider itself NSBM? Related to this, there are some bands, such as Khors, where some analysts and reviewers have explicitly and clearly labeled the band as NSBM (and in the case of Khors, considered it part of white power music movements, but others do not consider the band to be part of this because the lyrics and themes from the band are not overtly fascist or otherwise far-right. I've seen similar conflicts with other labels that are based primarily on an ideological, ethnic, or especially, religious affiliation, such Christian hip hop or Christian metal, or even Viking metal. Generally, consensus for these genres is that if there are some reliable sources that label the artist as such, even if other sources dispute that labeling, that is sufficient for inclusion as part of that genre, but making sure that the dispute among sources is mentioned on the artist's article. This dispute became much more heated due to my ongoing work on the National Socialist black metal article. I created a list article of NSBM artists in which every artist listed is supported by at least one citation to an independent, third-party reliable source. Concurrent with that, I added listed bands to Category:National Socialist black metal bands, and included mentions of the genre labeling, with citations to reliable sources, in the respective articles. Various IP and new user accounts challenged these edits and removed the cited content without providing rationale based in policy or guidelines. The article on Khors, where this was especially occurring, was temporarily semi-protected at my request because of disruptive editing. After that lifted, Violeance and I got into an edit war. A discussion on Violeance's talk page did not fully resolve the dispute, as they oppose my inclusion of NSBM in the infobox for the band. I requested an RfC, Violeance took this to ANI. The judgment there by EdJohnston was that my edit warring extends beyond just Khors but to the entire topic of Category:National Socialist black metal. They suggested that I start an RfC or else risk being blocked.-- 3family6 ( Talk to me | See what I have done) 01:41, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
Argument from Violence: According to the wiki page
National Socialist black metal itself, it is “a political movement within black metal music that promotes neo-Nazism and similar ideologies”.
I. So, my points in regard to bands “labeling” are the following: 1. If the music (lyrics) of the band does not reflect any NS ideas; 2. If the band members have never pronounced any nazi statements; 3. If the band members have never called for any injustice, including injustice in regard to other people of any gender, race, nation, etc.; 4. If the band members didn’t show any interest to political movement (especially in regard to the topic discussed); 5. If the band members doesn’t belong to any social and political parties; 6. If the band members were pronouncing clearly, they have nothing to do with this stuff. What would be the reason behind then “labeling” the band Nsbm? How it would be any possible to apply unverified rumors, someone’s malice, single assumptions and conjectures of private individuals to “label” anybody in such serious accusations? I did my little research on this issue among some people who are metal music amateurs and some who are not, so the statement above reflects the common séance from both groups of people: those who are approximately familiar with this theme, and those who are not aware much of this subject matter.
II. Secondly, my guess, by being a “nazi representative”, you have to be “proud of it”, seek to revive and implement the ideology of nazism. Is it not true? So you would constantly repeat your “philosophy” around, claim it, and stand for it. This is how social and political movements are working, usually. Again, this is the common knowledge speaks.
III. Thirdly, many metal music researches from the scientific world stated the ongoing contempt to the metal music bands and its amateurs seeing them as “others” (and THIS IS a nazi ideology at work!). I quote one of those: “Controversies over heavy metal are seen as social reactions to perceived deviance: starting with targeting metal music as one of the threatening genres in the 1980s at the national level in the USA, and continuing presently with a censorship by Christian authorities, and political repression and societal stigmatization in Islamic countries” (Hjelm, 2011:7,8,13, journals.equinoxpub.com/index.php/PMH/article/view/14426). I want to believe metal music already went through this, and this is not those times anymore.
IV. Fourthly, let the Musicians do their music they are great at. Musical Artists do their piece of art, because they are talented to do so, and to pour out their emotions; for music amateurs to absorb this piece of art and to pour their emotions too. So this Art shall be extremely respected. This I am telling you, as a long term metal music amateur of many metal music genres.
V. Fifthly, I will repeat it over and over, my strong believe that each single person shall be protected from the persecution on the base of their race, nation, religion, gender, place of living, social position, etc. The same applies to Artists. Violeance ( talk) 20:12, 21 April 2020 (UTC)
References
{{
cite web}}
: CS1 maint: url-status (
link)
This is due to fact that labelling the band to the NSBM groups, means that you accuse members of the band in neo-nazism, and for such accusations, you need very strong basic of such evidence occurred. If, objectively, in a band’s actions, nsbm features never showed: never in designing, lyrics, merchandise products, etc. Agree with the one who wrote: “ if the band members have never pronounced any nazi statements, the band members have never called for any injustice, including injustice in regard to other people of any gender, race, nation, etc.; The band members didn’t show any interest to political movement (especially in regard to the topic discussed); The band members doesn’t belong to any social and political parties; The band members were pronouncing clearly, they have nothing to do with this stuff. What would be the reason behind then “labeling” the band Nsbm?”
May be the band labelled NSBM if, previously, one or several members did play in the bands with ambiguous reputation? Nobody labels Riverside band NSBM, because of their drummer and keyboardist were playing in Kataxu, Dark Fury, Thunderbolt, Sunwheel previously. You can’t label Dimmu Borgir NSMB band, though their recent drummer Daray played in Sunwheel. Nobody does that for Behemoth, though on their first album Rob Darken from Graveland was an invited singer.
In the case with Khors example, the link where the band was mentioned in such context is dated 2005, though the band has started its activity in 2004 only. The reviewer’s assumption of relating new band to NSBM, was based on info that keyboardist for this album was invited from Nokturnal Mortum. This website also marked that all opinions expressed in [1] are opinions held at the time of writing by the individuals expressing them, and they do not necessarily reflect the opinions of anyone else, past or present. Most likely a few repeating, based on this publication, has become this reason of assuming that band has relations to NSBM things.
My conclusion: if the band never pronounced any nazi statements, didn’t show any political involvement and interest to it, it was never shown designing, lyrics, merchandise products of band, it can’t be labeled. And the most important things NSBM it is not about music. NSBM is about black metal music with Neo-nazi, right-wing or racist meanings. OverrideTheOverture ( talk) 15:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)
“ | The album has also been grouped under what would have been at the time a virtually non-existent NSBM "scene". A later demo under the name Birkenau, which wound up on the infamous _Night and Fog_ compilation, seems to have caused much of the confusion. None of _Wandering_'s brief, fragmented lyrics and non- threatening images of landscapes evokes a political so much as internal, contemplative mood in the vein of _Filosofem_. | ” |
References
What is the current view on citing genre based material published by Bandcamp, personally I think WP:COISOURCE applies, it's not an independent source because of its commercial nature; what it publishes is essentially promotional content for the music it hosts. Views on this? Can discuss here also. Acousmana ( talk) 16:11, 18 May 2020 (UTC)
As the originator of the Nouvelle Chanson page, I'd like to thank all those contributors who have redesigned my page and made it proper.
When originally looking at the music of the Swedish artist Ane Brun, Who had spent years busking in France to develop her music, I became aware of the genre. As I could find no article on it, I created the page. There was very little material available for research. The main source was an article from the French Embassy in Canberra, which actually said that for the first time the French were creating decent pop music!
I wrote to Carla Bruni suggesting that France promoted the genre and received a polite reply from her secretary that she was 'aware of the situation', something like that.
Thank you all again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Indigocat ( talk • contribs) 06:09, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
We are discussing whether or not a genre should be interpreted on the article for a Kanye West song. If anyone could jump in to discuss, that would be great. The discussion is here. Andrzejbanas ( talk) 17:18, 10 July 2020 (UTC)
For more notice, a discussion that may result in the removal of |instruments=
from the infobox has been started at
WT:WPMU#Typical instruments parameter in Template:Infobox music genre. Please add your comments there. —
Ojorojo (
talk) 17:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
Can somebody write up an article about the 'Cosmic Scouse' and 'Scallydelica' music scenes? [1] [2] [3] Madchester has got a large article linked to Psychedelic music and Alternative rock on Wikipedia...but you only get Cosmic Scouse mentioned in random articles such as The Bandwagon Club, even though 20 years ago it cropped up quite a bit in the music press. On the other hand random sub-genres like ' Hipster hop' and ' Wonky pop', which may have only been dreamt up/noted by a couple of random journalists (or, in the case of the latter, been a bit of a failure if the idea was to create a lasting scene that was much more than a couple of hit albums by MIKA) are deemed worthy of inclusion.
References
The article Comedy music has been significantly expanded and should be considered for reassessment. Thank you. AnggotheManggo ( talk) 04:24, 9 December 2020 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Category:Turbo-folk compilation albums requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 15:48, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
A tag has been placed on Category:Chalga compilation albums requesting that it be speedily deleted from Wikipedia. This has been done under section C1 of the criteria for speedy deletion, because the category has been empty for seven days or more and is not a disambiguation category, a category redirect, a featured topics category, under discussion at Categories for discussion, or a project category that by its nature may become empty on occasion.
If you think this page should not be deleted for this reason, you may contest the nomination by visiting the page and clicking the button labelled "Contest this speedy deletion". This will give you the opportunity to explain why you believe the page should not be deleted. However, be aware that once a page is tagged for speedy deletion, it may be deleted without delay. Please do not remove the speedy deletion tag from the page yourself, but do not hesitate to add information in line with Wikipedia's policies and guidelines. -- David Tornheim ( talk) 16:00, 19 December 2020 (UTC)
Hi this page Draft:Shadab_Siddiqui is not yet reviewed, so can any editors/reviewer can look into this? -- 111.88.207.50 ( talk) 11:12, 7 January 2021 (UTC)
I would like to hear your opinion on removing colors for small regional genres and assigning new colors (reassigning old ones) for larger categories. Discussion. Solidest ( talk) 18:41, 1 March 2021 (UTC)
Hello, would anyone be able to assess the new article ' Afro-Caribbean Music'? I wrote it for my university class and would love some feedback and assistance if possible? Thank you, Ddra5202 ( talk) 00:32, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
There is a discussion on the talk page about including genres in the infobox of the article on Quique. Any contributions would be helpful. Andrzejbanas ( talk) 18:58, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I created the 2nd FA review on heavy metal music. Please your contributions to the article are welcome. -- George Ho ( talk) 06:07, 4 December 2021 (UTC)
Draft:Boyz on Block Draft:Time (Five album) Can someone approve or reject these please. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Basil4517 ( talk • contribs) 05:02, 23 February 2022 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:8003:331F:C301:24A5:F9CA:5C6E:B737 ( talk)
I suggested adding a project template for all articles tagged with music genres (and other related classes) on Wikidata. The details are here: Wikipedia:Bot requests#Adding WikiProject Music genres template to 1.6k genre articles. Feel free to discuss the request there.
P.S. Wikipedia:WikiProject Music/Music genres task force/Assessment is now tagged historical, but the template itself is actively used. Shouldn't we remove this tag and update this page a bit, leaving it as a policy summary only? Solidest ( talk) 15:05, 20 June 2022 (UTC)
Are there clear, unambigious, algorithmic step-by-step instructions for Wikipedia that always work that are used to distinguish between a fusion genre vs a subgenre, a subgenre vs a derivative, a derivative vs a fusion genre? The current situation is mess and the distinction (from my experience) is very often not supported by any sources. Sources, unless very specific, don't usually do phylogenetic musicology and instead use ambigious wording such as "a type of music", "a variant", "a scene" and so on.
If there is no clear, algorithmic way to determine which is which among these three, I propose merging all three fields into either "derivatives" field (in my opinion, the most objective name, as it doesn't get too detailed but is still sufficiently informative to understand what the field is about), or replacing all three with "offshots" (a little bit more colloquial term, but similarly unbiased).
That's because the current situation makes it breeding ground for genre warring and WP:OR, much as infobox color used to, until it got removed. I have myself seen numerous examples (some of which I have corrected, some I haven't) where subgenre lists list derivative (footwork listed as a subgenre of house), or fusion genres list derivatives (trance listed among fusion genres in techno), but then again, who am I to judge whether trance is techno derivative. Intuition may tell someone that since Trance is a separate genre that separated from Techno, then it is a derivative, but then again, trance article itself says that Trance formed as a fusion between Techno and New Age, so the person who originally put it to fusion genres of techno also had his point. One may argue that if subgenres have their own subgenres then they are in fact derivatives and not subgenres anymore, but it is also wrong. See Hip hop music as an example: trap is it's proper subgenre, but it has its own subgenres (say, phonk), and phonk, being a sub-subgenre of hip-hop, has its own subgenres too (drift phonk). One could argue, for instance, that fusion genre is a fusion between two or more genres (two+ parent nodes, in phylogenetic approach), while subgenre always has 1 parent node, but this is also WP:OR: for the example to the contrary, take "acid techno". The article about acid techno says that acid techno derived from "acid house" and "techno" (probably it should be a fusion genre then?), but then it is listed among subgenres (not fusion genres) in Techno article. Whoever listed it among subgenres also had his rational point of view, I suppose: one could say that acid techno is "techno with 303 acid synths".
Articles with subgenre lists do not to dellineate "fusion genres" from "subgenres" either. For instance, house music has link to "complete list of house subgenres" in infobox, however that list lists not only subgenres, but also fusion genres and even some regional variants and whatelse.
There is even more to this discussion. Namely "local scenes" and "regional scenes" fields in Infobox music genres. I have noticed (in House music), that Regional variants list "Shamstep" and some african genres (which probably) derived from house. Why are they not in "derivatives"? Nowhere in the article it is said that "Shamstep" is even house music. Example to the contrary: "Baltimore club" lists "Jersey club" and "Philly club" as derivatives, while their names suggest that they may be considered "regional variants" or "local variants" (especially Philly club, which doesn't even have a separate article). Local variants, if they are used anywhere at all, in turn, get mixed with "regional variants" or "fusion genres", down to a particular editor's taste. For instance, "Celtic hip hop" is listed as "local scene" when the article it links to ("Celtic fusion") says that it's probably akin to "Celtic metal" as it incorporates celtic influences into hip hop. At the same time "Jewish hip hop" and "Desi hip hop" and "Latin hip hop" are listed among subgenres. How is Celtic hip hop not a fusion genre (or subgenre? ;]), but a local scene? WP:OR situation.
In short, if you start digging the "fusion genres" vs. "subgenres" vs. "derivatives" (vs. "regional scenes" vs. "local scenes") as they exist right now in the wild in Wikipedia, you will immediately understand that they are breeding ground for personal opinions of Wikipedians (WP:OR), often unsupported by secondary sources. If there is no 1-to-1 algorithm to differentiate them (as it would be supported by sources), I propose
If you agree to this, I will implement all the required changes myself. Please vote 178.121.41.135 ( talk) 05:16, 7 July 2022 (UTC)
Is fuzz faced a reputable site which I can cite aka are they independent and respected enough for me to be able to use in a article Goldsoldier75 ( talk) 18:53, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
Hi. I created a draft article for music executive Elliot Grainge in my sandbox here: [4]. I’m a new Wikipedia user, and work for Elliot, which I understand is a conflict of interest according to Wikipedia policy, so I need feedback on how to improve the draft from independent editors and make sure it’s following the proper structure and guidelines. Is someone from this project available to take a look and provide feedback/comments? Thanks. Musicfan100 ( talk) 14:31, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Compas#Requested move 26 November 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —usernamekiran (talk) 17:13, 3 December 2022 (UTC)
An article that you have been involved in editing—
Electronic dance music—has been proposed for
merging with another article. If you are interested, please participate in
the merger discussion. Thank you.
AngusW🐶🐶F (
bark •
sniff) 17:59, 13 February 2023 (UTC)
Could you help to disambiguate links to Maqam? It is generally better for the reader to link to specific articles rather than disambiguation pages but I do not have the expertise to know which articles the links should be going to. There are currently 71 articles (shown at Disambig fix list for Maqam) which link to this dab page. Any help appreciated.— Rod talk 11:57, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Nasheed#Requested move 11 January 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Vanderwaalforces ( talk) 01:06, 12 January 2024 (UTC)
None of these terms are synonymous. None of them were used at the same time, to describe the same things. Yet Wiki now treats them as largely interchangeable, with artists who were described as 'new romantic', 'new pop', 'synthpop', or even just 'pop' at the time getting the 'new wave' label. 'New wave', as used by most critics during the 1970s and 80s (irrespective of nationality), essentially referred to more commercialised versions of punk from the late 70s. It was largely perceived of as a thing of the past during the 1980s by most important critics, as is attested to on Wiki's own page. Among the public, at least in the UK, it was not widely used during the 80s either. The new wave page quotes a respected English journalist calling the formation of Duran Duran the 'death of new wave', yet Wikipedia now lists new wave among the band's primary genres and describes much of their music as such. The same genre mislabels are used for hundreds of other (mostly British) pop artists active during the 80s, none of whom would ever have been described as such by contemporaries. It is, I am afraid, utterly all without sense.
'New wave', the 'new romantics', and the 'new pop' were each and all distinct phenomena. All three were in one form or another reactions to the punk moment of 1976/77, but they were not the same. 'New wave' came first - it was artists like The Jam, Elvis Costello, XTC, Joe Jackson, The Specials, etc. It did include some synthesiser groups like Tubeway Army and the Buggles, but they were not the main component. It was always a broad term, but it had a short life. It went largely out of currency after 1980. This is supported by sources, quoted on both the Wiki pages for synthpop and new wave. The indiscriminate usage of 'new wave' for seemingly any and all 80s mainstream British chartpop would have struck contemporaries, as it strikes me, as utterly bizarre and not a little offensive. Artists who were described as new romantic, new pop, synthpop, or pop have been retroactively turned into 'new wave', by order of Wikipedia. As I've said, these genres were all quite distinct from new wave, and I'd be happy to hear others' definitions, but I think Wikipedia actually does a pretty good job defining each genre on its own page. You'll notice I call them genres, even though Wikipedia never includes New Romantic on genre lists. If we want to call it a fashion sensibility or cultural movement instead of a music genre, fine. But it was certainly used, at the time, as a way to define and categorise music, much like other genres. Currently, Wikipedia seems to consider 'Madchester' and 'mod revival' as 'genres', which like New Romantic were cultural/fashion movements as much as music forms (though in fact, New Romantic was actually far less vague and had a more easily definable sound than either those terms - that sound, of course, being synthpop). In any case, it's wholly incorrect to conflate the New Romantics with 'New Wave'. For now, just a few sources on that, because it's getting late:
The page British pop music (clearly written from a knowledgeable British perspective) correctly categorises 'punk and new wave' as genres of the 1970s, whilst 'New Romantic and the Second British Invasion' are defined as belonging to the 1979-1985 period. Similarly, the page British rock music has one section for 'Proto-punk, punk and new wave', and an entirely separate section for 'Electronic rock in the early 1980s' (under which are the subsections 'Synth rock', 'New Romantics', and 'The second British invasion').
Here's a 5 page piece from Rolling Stone magazine on the New Romantics (specifically Visage) from 1981 - no mention of 'new wave' (besides 'punk is dead'). Plenty of talk, though, about Bowie and electro-disco.
And here's another bit from Rolling Stone in 1981 (reprinted in another paper) about Japan, who Wikipedia defines as 'an English new wave band': 'Pity the natty Anglo-dandies of Japan. Too late for the glam-rock movement, reviled in the New Wave era, these veteran fops - led by David "The Most Beautiful Man in the World" Sylvian - would seem made to order for the age of the clothes-conscious New Romantic bands.'
'Reviled in the New Wave era,' but 'an English new wave band' in 2024 according to Wikipedia. Just like Duran Duran, I suppose. Jinglyjangle ( talk) 00:30, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
After encountering the latest bizarre miscategorisation of a British group as supposedly New Wave, I checked out the article's talk page to see if anyone else had noted this phenomenon on Wikipedia, and how widespread it is. Unsurprisingly they had. Engagement at that discussion has brought me here. I fully agree with Jinglyjangle's comments above.
That "Wikipedia caters to a worldwide audience" does not mean that recent/American usage of terms (if that's what it is) prevails over what are, in large part, concerns about a strong divergence in WP:ENGVAR/ MOS:TIES in regard to this terminology. That should be respected, not dismissed as "British-centric biased opinions".
VNT indeed but it seems plain that many nominally RS, in this sphere, are no such thing. Overhauling how we weight such sources may be the key to this.
Don't get me started about " sophistipop"... Mutt Lunker ( talk) 16:56, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
There's no need for separate articles, all we need is a variety of reliable sources to discuss it at its various angles. This isn't some sort of isolated incident, this stuff happens in music all the time. Genre is a subjective thing, and its interpretation changes over time. Back when Fall Out Boy and Panic at the Disco blew up in the mid-2000s, all the "traditionalists" complained that they "weren't real emo". Now the label is commonplace. When nu metal blew up in the late 1990s, all the old heavy metal fans complained that it "wasn't real metal". Johnny Cash fans don't think Luke Bryan is "real country". There's currently a movement of pop punk happening that doesn't sound much like its start up in the 1990s. It goes on and on. We're all free to have our own opinions and interpretations on it personally, but as long as we're acting as editors on Wikipedia, we need to WP:STICKTOSOURCEs, which means documenting varying viewpoints, not erasing the ones that don't meet our preferences. Sergecross73 msg me 19:48, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
Late to the party here, I know, but as a fellow Brit who grew up in this era, I share Jinglyjangle and Mutt Lunker's frustrations at what was termed "new wave" in the US... in the UK, that term was very much reserved for acts of an edgier, more experimental disposition (e.g. Elvis Costello, or Joy Division)... if you had described Culture Club or Howard Jones as "new wave" you would have been laughed out of the country, and I would be very surprised if I could find a single mention of new wave being used for these acts in the UK music press of the time. That said, I have to go along with Sergecross73 and Binksternet here, much as it pains me personally – we don't really have any choice but to use the descriptions we can find in RS... we can call them both "pop" and "new wave" if there are sources for it (and I'm sure there are) and it'll mean different things on either side of the Atlantic. Richard3120 ( talk) 22:28, 25 March 2024 (UTC)
There was really no consensus in favor of what they were trying to do (or even an actionable path forward even if they did) but for record keeping's sake, per here, virtually every participant on one side of the argument, outside of Matt Lunker, has been indeffed for sock puppetry. Sergecross73 msg me 18:43, 20 April 2024 (UTC)
I would be happy to have help with:
There is a discussion here about whether to move Kritika (disambiguation) to Kritika. -- Jax 0677 ( talk) 22:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)