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The projects style in articles do not correspond with Wikipedia's guideline on Manual of Style with flags. Martial Arts record boxes and results pages like for UFC 87 do not need flags next to each competitors name, it is emphasizing the nationality of them without a good reason and and unnessecarily clutters articles and the boxes. The main reasons flagicons are legitametly used are: aiding in navigation in long lists or tables of countries, putting single flags in infoboxes and in sporting articles where the country the flag represents and the players nationalities may differ. None of the appropriate uses are applied here and the style guides here should be changed to reflect this. — Moe ε 05:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
"They are useful in articles about international sporting events to show the representative nationality of players (which may differ from their legal nationalities)." That's under WP:FLAGS#Appropriate use. Sorry I missed that before, but it clearly states flags are permissible in sporting articles—with no distinction between individual and team sports. Now, in WP:MMA, we have flags in bio infoboxes (which are rightfully being removed), fight records, event pages and various events and champion lists. You seem to have the most problem with fight records and event pages. So lets start from there: Fight records are not prose. They are also not merely decorative and are useful in showing the scope and reach of a fighter's experience. The only issue that I see is whether the usage of the flags is considered overuse and cluttered, and frankly, that's a subjective opinion and you need a consensus for that judgement.
As for event pages, I don't see flags in prose. What I do see them being used is in list items: "Welterweight bout: (flag) Fighter A vs. (flag) Fighter B." To me, that is not "writing that resembles everyday speech", as Wikipedia defines it. There's no sentence there—no subject or predicate. Again, whether it looks cluttered or not is up to the judgement of the consensus but for whether this is prose or not, it doesn't look much different than something like 2006 FIFA World Cup#Scorers with an added preface. In short, I don't see where by fiat WP:FLAGS states that flags are being used inappropriately. I think you need a consensus before you can say authoritatively anything like that. hateless 20:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Hateless, you said:
Yes, it is, but the only problem with that is MMA fights like UFC, are not international sporting events. A international sporting event is two nations competing against eachother, like FIFA and the Olympics. You seem to be ignoring the fact that sporting events your citing for using flagicons are also having the country name listed in the tables beforehand, i.e. a correct way to use flagicons in sporting event articles. All you need to do to correct the problem is add the name of the country the flag represents in the results and everything will be alright with it. The way it is, is not in compliance with WP:FLAG, no matter what angle you swing it, because all correct uses are also with the countries name listed in the article somewhere. — Moe ε 13:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
An editor has been creating quite a few articles about mixed martial artists which consist of just a {{ MMAstatsbox}} and sometimes an infobox. This project's input would be appreciated at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#"Disruptive" article creation?. Cheers. lifebaka ++ 13:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I've put this project under the care of my bot to generate a watchlist that encompasses all MMA articles which will be updated daily. Hopefully, this'll help us catch subtle vandalism and nasty BLP violations a little sooner; the list is located here. east718 // talk // email // 00:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate any help with the current issues at the Lee Hasdell article. The short version is I removed and rewrote major parts of the article removing non-NPOV and two instances of copyvio (text copied from pbp-reports etc). ClaudioProductions ( talk · contribs) who appears to have written major parts of the article took issue with my edits and reverted all of them. I have explained my edits on his talk page, but he still don't agree and his last message to me contained "stop undoing my work. Are you determind to ruin it or something ?. Im going to keep changing it back so give up now".
The article was basically full of statements like "Hasdell was very impressive, winning by KO", "In a memorable match", "Hasdell won the prestigious Oktagon Challenge", "Hasdell lossed [..] in a very tough fight", "a spectacular flying knee", "he floored Kasteel twice in the first round [...] in a very short but action packed match", "he fought in the Absolute Fighting Challenge, which was the worlds toughest no holds barred mixed martial arts event in the world", "Hasdell was very unfortunate", "Hasdell's final fight for RINGS was against the No.1 Heavyweight in the world Fedor Emelianenko" (he wasn't at the time, and who decides who is #1 anyway?) aswell as unsourced statements about him being "the Godfather of UK MMA, as he is the first and most experienced mixed martial artist in the country".
ClaudioProductions is abviously a fan of Hasdell and doesn't want me to change an article he has worked hard on even though much of it is against WP policy related to WP:NPOV and WP:V. -- aktsu ( t / c) 17:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey all...I'm not a member of this project, but I do check in every now and then because I'm a member of WP:PW and we have quite a bit of article overlap. Anyway, on this visit I noticed you had a featured list so I added the FL option to Template:WikiProject Mixed martial arts. Now, FLs will be sorted into Category:FL-Class mixed martial arts articles instead of Category:FA-Class mixed martial arts articles. This makes assessment clearer and is more accurate. Just wanted to make everyone aware of the new option. Enjoy. :) Nikki 311 20:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on about (surprisingly enough :D) the format of the event pages at WT:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/Event pages format. Input would be appreciated. -- Aktsu ( t / c) 02:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.
We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.
A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.
We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
So, a note was recently added to the Joe Son article about him being charged with rape. I rewrote it because the version I saw was a copyvio of the source, but I'm concerned that with a single source, TMZ, there might be some WP:BLP issues. Since I don't have much experience with that, I wanted to bring it to other editor's attention, so someone could maybe take a look at it. gnfnrf ( talk) 01:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
New article, needs lot of work. -- Nate 14 81 13:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Some time ago Wikiproject Boxing deleted their list. Ours is getting long as well but I don't think we should delete it yet, my suggestion is to keep blue links only and add a new names after the articles are being created. Marty Rockatansky ( talk)
What do you guys think about the "notes" sections in record tables? My feeling is that that they just add clutter and are more appropriate in the prose anyway. I've been seeing numerous edit wars breaking out recently over the most useless information in these little sidebars (sample: "Fighter A was cut by Fighter B in this match!"). It's also POV to determine what merits mentioning in the condensed sections. Perhaps we should remove them entirely if we can't exactly determine what to do with them. east718 // talk // email // 22:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
i stumbled across List of Mixed Martial Artists with Professional Boxing Records quite by accident this morning (checking past vandalism by a random ip, of all things), and have cleaned it up a bit. it's practically orphaned, and i'm not sure what to do with it. it IS the sort of thing that i've looked for once or twice in the past, so if it's fleshed out it could prove useful. pauli133 ( talk) 13:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I think we should rename the article to "Dynamite!! 2008". Fields is just a main sponsor. The full name of the event on the official japanese poster translates "Dynamite!! - Power of Courage 2008 - Marty Rockatansky ( talk) 15:20, November 20, 2008
There is currently some issues over two articles that have been created for Daniel Cramer. Daniel Cramer(fighter) was first created and matches what is used in the TUF article & template. Dan Cramer was created afterwards which was a copy/paste from the original article. Daniel Cramer(figher) was blanked and then a request for deletion was posted in favor of Dan Cramer. There are currently a couple questions that need to be answered, and hopefully people here will chime in.
There are discussion pages at Talk:Dan Cramer and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Cramer(fighter) on this issue. Thanks for stopping by either place and providing your input. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 19:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I ran into this article that had been brutally vandalized. I reverted it back to what I think was the last clean version, but if anyone knows about this guy and wants to double check my work i'd appreciate it.-- Cube lurker ( talk) 01:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
(for the most part, TUF)
I feel that by the terms outlined by the Wikimedia Foundation ("... the sum of all knowledge..."?), we should include exhibition bouts to record tables. Obviously with a denotation to them. Just tonight I added bouts to all of the light heavyweights on TUF 8, and marked the record frame with "EXH" and if applicable, added a subsequent note. -- Piranesi2007 ( talk) 02:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about how the Forrest Griffin vs. Rashad Evans title fight ended at UFC 92. Because Griffin said he did not submit, and because the UFC lists the fight as a TKO, I added that it was a TKO in the articles. Another editor, user:2008Olympian, and an IP address have been quoting Sherdog, saying that the fight ended in submission. Any thoughts on what to do? Chicken Wing ( talk) 16:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see each fighters base pay listed in the fight history table. I think it provides some insight into the future of the fighters. For example, Cheick Kongo was paid $45k for his fight in UFC 92. This is a fighter that has been scheduled for un-aired fights in the past. I think his $45k salary tells you that the UFC has plans for him to move up to a title shot.
There are other benefits of listing purses like showing the progression and increasing popularity of the sport, providing some information on the business side of fighting etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.34.47 ( talk) 23:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I am informing this project that I have suggested merging supercard, undercard, and main event into card (sports) because some/all of those articles may be used by you all. The conversation is taking place at Talk:Card (sports). Nikki♥ 311 01:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, some input on the issues at the Lee Hasdell article would be very much appreciated. At the moment it's pretty much only me and ClaudioProductions, who have a COI being Hasdell's son, discussing them. Thanks in advance. -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there an official format for the MMA Record table? I was looking at them hoping to standardize them, but I couldn't find any real official format that would help with the ordering, whether or not to include the location and/or record, and the title of the section. jhanCRUSH ( talk) 23:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
There's a discussion about whether to use 'purse' or 'salary' to describe the reported payout to fighters on Talk:UFC 94 is anyone if interested. -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Guys, we need to add 'reach' to the fighter info column. Before EVERY UFC fight they do "the tale of the tape" which measures height, weight, age, and reach. Reach is a pretty important stat anyway, so I'm going to modify the template for fighters info box to include it. Then I'm going to edit a few fighter by hand and hopefully others can do the rest. Floodo1 ( talk) 19:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC) Please discuss any objections:
I was pretty sure some of us agreed that MMABay isn't a reliable source somewhere, but I can't find it! Can we just quickly form a consensus that it isn't so and be done with it? As "evidence" I'd like to point to this article from January 11 where it was "exclusively revealed" that Rampage would face Evans at UFC 100, which were to take place on July 4 (it's actually scheduled to take place on July 11). While it's funny that Rampage-Evans actually might take place should Rampage beat Jardine, MMABay claimed the UFC have already pencilled the pair in to headline the celebrations on the UFC 100 card, which was of course not the case. Thing like that, and the fact that everything is written by Michael Pepper, and the fact that the website probably is made in Frontpage should be enough to establish that it's not a reliable source per WP:RS. Thought? -- aktsu ( t / c) 22:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I recently put some work into expanding the Lyoto Machida article. In the process, however, I've been butting heads with an anonymous editor. I don't want to wage a one-man edit war with this individual, so I was wondering if some third parties from this project could swing by the article and take a look. - Captain Crawdad ( talk) 23:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I am going to bite the bullet and nominate Fedor for Feature-article status. I am sure it will need a ton of work, so please pitch in and let's see if we can get our first FA!-- 2008Olympian chitchat 08:34, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I've seen some articles italicize the events (eg UFC 92) in the prose. Is this part of a MOS guideline I'm unaware of? Thanks. Bad intentionz ( talk) 23:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Caio Morone ( talk · contribs) seem to disagree with me that we should not list scheduled/upcoming fights in the fight record as he uncommented my commenting of the Silva-Franklin-fight. WP:CRYSTAL is one reason for not listing, and that it is a major source for vandalism is another. Can we get a consensus for one or the other? -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:55, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
<-Just a thought but hwy not use the comments <!-- --> to make a note saying 'Please leave scheduled fight hidden till after the event' or some such -- Nate 14 81 11:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Diff. This guy have been changing it to that for months now, and I have been reverting him. Can somebody help out? -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of this discussion was no consensus one way or the other. Please read the section below to furthur discuss the topic and come to a consensus. — Moe ε 06:59, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking we should address how we handle flags for people with multiple nationalities/dual citizenship etc. I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people edit war over the flag for say Brandon Vera, or having to revert good faith edits changing to subnational flags. Those are not huge problems or anything, but I was thinking I might as well bring it up.
I would be in favor of getting rid of them altogether as per MOS:FLAG etc., but going by the previous discussion people find them too pretty (I did as well for a while) as well as helpful in showing the scope and reach of a fighter's experience (quoting hateless), which I can see the point in - though it's not as relevant today as it was a few years ago.
Anyway, besides getting rid of them - is there anything we can do/decide on? If anything, I thing a consensus to use the flag the promotion use would be helpful. (That would make Vera American for those wondering). -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Abstain While I dont see that having flags is bothersome, I'm mixed. On one hand I think that they have almost zero significance within the context of MMA itself, because it's not a nation based sport. Flags for things like the olympics matter because it's based on athletes representing countries. However in MMA where you come from is just a minor statistic. However, on the other hand, I personally value knowing roughly where each fighter came from, because I have stereotypes about say being from brazil probably mans you have excellent BJJ. I also don't think it's very bothersome to have a little flag denoting the country of origin for a fighter. Finally, there is the issue of which flag do you use for someone that is from Brazil and fought fights from there, but then moves to the US and according to the ufc pre-fight footage "is fighting out of _____, USA"? Which flag do you use? his country of origin and early carreer, or do you give him an american flag just because he moved here now?
Oppose The flags do not belong in any infobox (fighter or event) per MOS:FLAG, but on the event pages I support their use in the matchup sections. -- 2008Olympian chitchat 04:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Strong Support We're actually dealing with a few different problems here. Problem #1 is that, as I read it, flag usage to indicate nationality of fighters (for records, event matchups, etc.) is a clear contradiction of MOS:FLAG. MOS:FLAG does reference the usage of flags in sports-related articles, and I think that's fine. But the references are about people who compete in sports that have teams representing particular nations, not for individuals who fight on teams that have nothing to do with a nation. For example, take this quote from the section dealing with sportspersons:
The qualifier "sporting nationality" is critical here. We're talking about someone who represents a particular national team. For example, what if we have a person with dual French-US citizenship competing in the Olympics for France's official national team? In that case, a US flag icon would be inappropriate, because the competitor's "sporting nationality" for that event is French, not US. A flag icon may be appropriate for that; not because it's a "sport" and flags should be used for anyone who competes in a sport, but because the person is representing a nation-state and the flag icon can help to highlight that.
This reasoning has no application in MMA, and in fact the usage of flags in our record tables does just what MOS:FLAG says not to do: it emphasizes "nationality", but not "sporting nationality." MMA fighters do not fight to represent countries/nations, they represent themselves (or, arguably, their camps). They have no "sporting nationality" because there's no official national teams in MMA. Take Marcus Aurelio for example. He is Brazilian, but fights for American Top Team out of Coconut Creek, FL, USA. He's not fighting for a Brazilian team, yet fight records for his opponents have next to his name. Why? He's not representing Brazil in MMA, so why are we emphasizing that?
The important point is that flag icons are for emphasis, not simply to convey some information about a person. You put a flag icons in there, and you're saying: "Representing Brazil: Marcus Aurelio. Representing the USA: Tyson Griffin." The emphasis is not only not needed in the article, it's also not even accurate, since those people aren't representing those countries in combat. Marcus Aurelio is a Brazilian-born mixed martial artist; he is not a mixed martial artist who represents the country of Brazil.
Problem #2 is the overuse of flag icons pair with the location of fights. What information does "Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA" convey that "Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA" does not? What is the purpose of the flag icon in these records? It needlessly emphasizes the country the fight took place in. The country is irrelevant. Really, who cares that the fight was in the US? I'm not saying that the "location" column should be removed from the record box, but the country itself is not so important to the fight or event that it must be emphasized. " Las Vegas, Nevada, USA" is really saying "Las Vegas, Nevada, UNITED FRIGGIN' STATES OF FRIGGIN' AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
hateless commented earlier that the flag icons were created for sports, and MMA should not be the single exception that bans flags. Well, we're not. Most baseball articles do not flag the nationality of their players. Neither do basketball, football, or hockey articles. In the instances where they do, I would argue that they suffer from the same problem we're addressing here: needless emphasis of nationality. These fighters are not acting as national representatives of their sports, and their nationality does not play an important role in describing the fight between two parties. MOS:FLAG is there for a reason, and the current usage of flags in MMA articles is squarely against the MOS without good reason for doing so. Enforce the policy; remove the flags. Gromlakh ( talk) 06:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
So that everyone wins, I would prefer if the WP:FLAG issues were resolved with the flags remaining intact. Please see:
This way the core issues with WP:FLAG is resolved and the flags are still there. — Moe ε 19:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I edited it, now there is no flag column, only a fighting out of column on UFC 1. I also edited the MMA stats box on Efrain Escudero. Please tell me what you think so I can improve on it. — Moe ε 20:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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I give up trying to help if editors keep reverting obvious violations of manual of style of these icons. And just FYI Marty Rockatansky, just because there are other violations of it widespread across Wikipedia doesn't mean it is widely accepted to violate the guideline when it explicitly says to do otherwise. Goodbye. — Moe ε 22:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
If we're going to continue to use the flags as we currently do, I say we decide to use the flag the promotion list for the fighter i.e. "what they fight under" as opposed to wherever they're born/live or similar. What do we think? -- aktsu ( t / c) 10:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the administrator I spoke to, we shouldn't be using flags on any article regarding MMA unless we have a reliable reference that tells us that this is a international sporting event, where fighters are representing a country and that the reliable source has to actually use flags. He took a quick look at the UFC website and from what he saw, he did not see anything that remotely looks like a international sporting event. Most international sporting events have a list of people by what country they represent; he only found lists of fighters by weight class. Without references for what flags they represent, then they should all be removed. However, if you actually find a reliable reference with flags next to their names that proves that the flags mean anything it could be a different story. Flags just added by Wikipedia editors without a reference violates several guidelines outside of WP:FLAG. If this issue is not corrected, I will take further steps to remove them. — Moe ε 18:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I just realized something when getting the reach for GSP and BJ; the above proposal won't work. The flag they use on the tale of the tape is birthcountry. :| -- aktsu ( t / c) 17:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
What we need to do is to use a reliable source to determine which flag to use. Also, flags are prohibited in all infoboxes, so the discussion is about what to use on the matchup portions of event pages only. If anyone has a reliable source for which country each fighter "fights out of," then wonderful. I am unsure if such a source exists. Sherdog is a possibility, but I think it uses nationality. No matter what it is to be, it needs to work for every fighter to prevent edit wars. -- 2008Olympian chitchat 05:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Why not merge this Project into WP:PW and create a new bigger project that can officially be considered the most active WikiProject in all of Wikipedia and one with most of the accomplishments. Ra agg io 10:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
No these shouldnt be merged together. Is Professional wrestling MMA? NO. keep the projects seperate. Further is Judo, BJJ, or tawkwando MMA? NO! each deserves their own project, as each are seperate fields with equal stature. However creating a combat sports project wouldnt violate this argument as it's broader than any of these other projects (mma, judo, bjj etc) but it's OVERLY broad. Specifically the issue is that within each project you should be able to have templates and consistency in formatting and (hopefully) style across the ENTIRE project. I dont think you can do this if you merge anything else with MMA. Finally, professional wrestlying IS NOT A SPORT. There are no true referees, and there is generally a predetermined outcome. While it MAY be the case that professional wrestlers are more or less athletic than MMA fighters, that bears no relevance on this distinction between sport and entertainment.....name one other sport that specifically refers to itself as "(world wide) ENTERTAINMENT" Floodo1 ( talk) 19:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to compile an article for current MMA fighter and former college wrestler standout Marcus LeVesseur. I have created an article on my namespace User:Calebrw/Marcus LeVesseur. My opinion is that he is notable based solely on his wrestling career, but as there is no College Wrestling Wikiproject, I'm asking here.
Could someone tell me if he is indeed notable. If so I'll proceed with the article, but if not I'll keep it on my namespace until I can flesh out the article.
He's been covered in USA Today as well as local newspapers/TV stations and college wrestling websites. There are plenty of sources out there. Googling "Marcus LeVesseur" brings 2,710 results.
As far as wrestling goes, he's the only Division III to win 4 national championships. He was undefeated and untied in his college career, going 155-0, second only to Cael Sanderson at 159-0. He won four Minnesota state championships. Since he last loss, he went 296-0 in high school and college. He also competed at the international level and won at least one national juniors title.
He was a highly recruited player in high school. He originally went to the University of Minnesota before transferring to Augsburg College. Teams at Augsburg won two team national titles: 2005 and 2007.
Thanks and your thoughts are appreciated. Calebrw ( talk) 15:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that after about a month of waiting, the Wanderlei Silva vs. Quinton Jackson has been officially listed as Wikipedia Good Article! I am very happy to report this information because it was my first article, and I really didn't know what to expect going into the review process. Perhaps more importantly though, in the process of the review we were able to establish a list of MMA reliable sources. Here are the MMA sources used in the article, and were given OKs:
Probably "top tiered", or guaranteed reliable sources:
Not sure, but have very credible partnerships:
Beyond that, there are the obvious that will of course be reliable, like Yahoo! Sports, CBSSports, NBCSports, etc. I'll add more to the list as I come across them. Bad intentionz ( talk) 00:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.
All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot ( Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a current debate at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (icons) whether to permit the use of flag icons in the MMA record box in the articles of fighters; namely, whether MMA competitions are "international sporting events" under the guideline, and if so, what source should be used to verify the nationality. Please feel free to express your opinion on the issue.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 04:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
:: After watching it myself, I agree that the flags, as used, emphasize nationality against the terms of the guideline and should probably go.--
2008Olympian
chitchat 06:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC) see comment below--
2008Olympian
chitchat
02:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
We have a viable source for actual nationality, per Sherdog fighter databases. Why can't we assume the actual nationality is the sporting nationality in the absence of a stated preference for sporting nationality, as what the general practice of the world media appears to be? Otherwise, the majority of the flags used on baseball, cycling, boxing, etc. articles where most of their athletes do not play under an explicitly stated sporting nationality are in violation. Also, there is no new development. The UFC is very clear the flag represents the birthcountry for a long time, and the discussion on WT:ICONS didn't go anywhere. hateless 01:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Want definitive proof? Below someone listed bleacherreport.com as a reliable source: see what they got to say? [14]
That good enough for you? Written in black and white: it is not a international sporting event and international sporting events are based on teams of peoples by nationality. — Moe ε 08:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
(Reply to hateless' comment above, was moved so might as well move it here) What is this good reason for using the flags then? Sorry, but I really don't see it... What is it the reason to specifically emphasize that this fighter is from this country beside nationalistic pride which the guideline suggest has no place on WP per the policy WP:NOT. -- aktsu ( t / c) 08:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
"Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense". Isn't that exactly what we're doing currently? MMA fighters have no "sporting nationality", they only have their own nationality. "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent sporting nationality, not nationality, if any confusion might arise" (emphasis mine). Sorry if this was already brought up (or rather, it has been but I can't remember anyone commenting on that specific line), but I just re-read MOS:FLAG. -- aktsu ( t / c) 10:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this makes a difference but what about situations where promotions do one country vs. another country theme. For example, UFC 58 or The Ultimate Fighter: U.S.A. vs. U.K.? Clearly in a case like this a fighter is representing a specific country even though they technically it's not one country vs. another country. Mmafan420 22"25. 27 February 2009 (UTC)
As for the new US v. UK show, that one is pretty clearly use of sporting nationality. If we want to hold that the actual nationality is the sporting nationality, I have no problem with that. There is definitely a use of nationality in MMA by the athletes. This is not the same as editors using Wikipedia to promote a point of view or push nationalistic pride. That is what I view the guideline as prohibiting. Do the articles on Muhammad Ali or Troy Aikman need to have American flags in them? Of course not. But the use of flags as we are using them in the MMA articles is not the same, it is a reflection of what is happening in the sport itself, and is therefore fair grounds for inclusion. What I am concerned with, and what prompted my earlier, now redacted, concession was the problems of verification of what hateless terms "a stated preference for sporting nationality" that would be other than the actual nationality. All I seek in this is that, if we use the flags, we have a reliable, verifiable source on which to base our country selection.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 02:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Can somebody explain how we are suppose to upload poster images for MMA events? I see them uploaded all the time for UFC events but I tried to upload one for Strikeforce: At The Mansion II and it was deleted. Any information would be helpful. I know Strikeforce doesn't care if their posters are used on wikipedia, they give these posters away for free. Mmafan420 ( talk) 02:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently there are three groups under the template: Pay-per-view, Fight Nights, and The Ultimate Fighter finales. This isn't entirely accurate as there have been a number of PPV events that were free on Spike and never sold as a PPV.
Drr-darkomen ( talk) 15:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
What's the procedure for rumored bouts for upcoming events if they have references. I recently put a rumored bout for Strikeforce in Seattle but it was removed. Are rumored bouts not allowed for upcoming cards even when there are legitmate references? I might be mistaken but I think I've seen a few Japanese events like Dream where rumored particpants are added to the article leading up to the event. Any clarity would be appreciated. Thanks! Mmafan420 ( talk) 18:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback guys. Makes perfect sense. Mmafan420 ( talk) 02:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I realize that I have been in error in placing the source of many references in the "work=" field instead of the "publisher=" field. They can both be used, for example "publisher=New York Times" and "work=nytimes.com", but the publisher field is required for a feature article.
I found this out during the Fedor FAC, which just had too much work to do in the allotted week or so a candidacy receives. I will address the many issues it raised and eventually renominate it. It had a lot of support for its subject matter and many reviewers said it was close. There was too much primary-source information from Fedor's website, the article suffered from what was called a "lightbulb format," where sections got smaller and smaller as the article progressed, and there was several references from sources that weren't considered reliable.
As for reliable sources, I think we need to set up a list on the project page of agreed reliable sources to which we can point the reviewers. The list above seems like a pretty good start. Any references showing that they are reliable would be helpful as well.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 02:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I've gone to town on the Mike Brown article, adding a lot of content and references. I was wondering if anyone could help me find a free image for the page. I realize this page is probably low priority, but any help or advice would be much appreciated. -- jhan CRUSH 04:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
There's an edit war over at UFC 94 with 63.3.1.2 ( talk · contribs) and 63.3.1.130 ( talk · contribs) wanting the result of the St-Pierre/Penn fight to be TKO by "corner stoppage" (which is Sherdog's result), while myself and others wanting it to echo NSAC's official result of "referee stoppage on doctor's advice". The issue was briefly brought up at Talk:UFC_94#Official_Results. I would think the right course of action would be to get a consensus for one or the other, so what do we think? I would say commission > everyone else. -- aktsu ( t / c) 22:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
FYI, 63.3.1.2 ( talk · contribs) has been blocked from editing for 24 hours. Hopefully, this will end the problems from this user. However, we won't know for sure until tomorrow night as well as waiting to see if the other IP will behave as well. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 02:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Just a quick heads-up; most (new) articles I see don't include all parameters for the various templates we use (i.e. Template:MMAstatsbox and Template:MMArecordbox). I just created Jung Chan Sung where I've made sure to include all of them, so if anyone is going to create any new articles you're welcome to copy from there to make sure all the fields are included. Cheers, -- aktsu ( t / c) 16:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Should we consider creating separate articles for the Finales as opposed to them being included within the articles detailing the seasons? -- Drr-darkomen ( talk) 22:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Werger777 ( talk · contribs) does not seem to like the focus of our mixed martial arts article. He seemingly feels if emphasizes greco-roman wrestling more than MMA, and has thus decided to replace the existing image with a (copyvio, which is being dealt with, but that's not the point) more "fitting" image of Jon Jones suplexing Stephan Bonnar. (Which seems a little WP:POINTy to me, but hey.) I moved his concerns to the MMA-articles talk page. -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Can someone look at the tournament bracket for TUF Rampage vs Forrest and tell me what you see for the final match. I'm seeing it as Dollaway in both halves of the match, however that's now what the code says when you edit it. I just want to make sure it's not just me or if the bracket coding is in error. Thanks all. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 00:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
For those of you who are interested, there is an ongoing discussion on the World Victory Road Presents: Sengoku 7 talk page in regards to which flag should be used for Nam Phan. Phan was born in the US and appears to still be a US citizen. In this event, the Japanese broadcast displayed a South Vietnam flag and an article calling him South Vietnamese has also been uncovered. His gi displays the South Vietnam flag on his left breast, a US flag on the right shoulder, and a Brazilian flag on the left shoulder. The debate is on which flag to use (between US and South Vietnam). If you have any interest in seeing what is discussed or want to put in your two cents, feel free to head over there. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 19:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
First of all, it is not my intention to start another flag debate. However, this specific issue was briefly mentioned in previous debates and I think what I am about to propose has support. I just want to double-check before I start making edits.
In some of the fighter articles, locations in the record boxes are preceded with a flag. (Ex from Junie Browning's article: Las Vegas, Nevada) My belief is that there is support to remove the flags in this case. I just wanted to make sure there was no argument against removing these location flags, particularly as I clean up TUF fighter pages. (NOTE: I will leave flags next to fighter's names alone.) -- TreyGeek ( talk) 23:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
What is the thought behind what cards are listed and what is not?
I understand that UFC and Pride get listings- but what about RINGS, Pancrase, Rage Cage etc? If the Promotion is listed under the "Professional mixed martial arts organizations" is that the cutoff so JoeBob Big honking MMA show doesn't make the cut? -- David.snipes ( talk) 01:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Q. I hate to bring the subject up, but as other PPV's (noteably Pro-Wresting) has in the extrnal link section a show review (most to 411mania) Should we also link the cards to a good review? -- David.snipes ( talk) 15:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Evans hit Liddell with an overhead right knocking him to the ground and the fight was called by (can;t remember the ref) at 2:30 of the second round. Then on the External Links have a link to several sites Sherdog,411mania,ISC etc. that a person can go LOOK for more details & Opinion. -- David.snipes ( talk) 15:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas_Rutten on his fight history All of the Pancrase shows (Pancrase-Truth 4 for example) have links to the wiki/Pancrase page neither the card or the organization -- David.snipes ( talk) 15:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
[17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]. That was only on the UFC 97 article, and only going back to the 8th. So, what do we use? -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Any thought on including the weight(class) in the record tables? Seems pretty useful to me seeing as more and more people are fighting at multiple weights (relevant recent examples include Aoki being defeated by Sakurai at welterweight while being the WAMMA lightweight champ and the upcoming catchweight bouts Shamrock-Diaz and Silva-Franklin). I'll get on it if there's no objections. -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
13 Matches | 11 Wins | 2 Losses |
---|---|---|
Welterweight | 9 wins | 1 loss |
Middleweight | 1 win | 1 Loss |
Lightweight | 2 Wins | 0 Losses |
By Knockout | 7 wins | 1 Loss |
By Submission | 3 Wins | 0 Losses |
By Decision | 1 Win | 1 Loss |
-- David.snipes ( talk) 15:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
We are live. Looks decent on my screens, though they have pretty high resolutions. I was considering forcing each entry to be over two lines (that way all entries would be the same height no matter the content) but it didn't seem necessary. Feel free to edit or revert or whatever. If no-one complains I'll start implementing it on other pages and put it up at WP:MMA. -- aktsu ( t / c) 00:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys,
I've been working on a rewrite of the UFC 94 article, making it a much more extensive coverage of the event. I picked 94 because there were many issues to deal with (promotion, greasegate), etc, and thought sources would be abundant. I've been working on it for a couple of hours every night for the past week (exam period) and just got the initial draft up today. There are probably errors a-plenty so if you guys can be on the lookout for them that would be awesome.
If you guys like it, I think it'd be possible to expand a few more articles in this way as well. UFC 100 is definitely one we can look at it, along with 92, etc.
Things to do for UFC 94
I have to run now--more studying to do! Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Bad intentionz ( talk) 22:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Is that fact sourced? I can't tell from the Sandbox. We're gonna need one for that I think. Other than that, keep up the good work. I look forward to reading the finished product. Bad intentionz ( talk) 07:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Alright, moved the "event"-section from the sandbox to the article. -- aktsu ( t / c) 16:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I was looking over the Krzysztof Soszynski article. I noticed that a couple of the fight histories he is linked to (most recently Brian Stann) has a Polish flag next to his name. I'll change those to Canadian flags. But the more important thing I noticed is that Soszynski had a match against a "Marcus Hicks" in April 2008. The Marcus Hicks article doesn't have the Soszynski match listed. The Hicks article is one for Marcus "The Wrecking Ball" Hicks ( Sherdog). Soszynski fought against Marcus "The Loudmouth Assassin" Hicks ( Sherdog).
Does anyone have any idea how you handle two people in the same career/field? I'm going to unlink the incorrect Marcus Hicks' name in Soszynski's article. But how do we handle this potential conflict in the long term? What happens if both Hicks' deserves an article? -- TreyGeek ( talk) 01:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Reading the discussion of the fighters that fought on The Ultimate fighter but did ntohing of consequense following but are still minor parts of an significant event. What if we built a page for other fighters on the show? That way they still have an entry without having to give them the entire space (like the lists of other charaters on TV shows.
Someone MUCH better than me can make my concept less of an eyesore.
We could use the format like This one or This one David.snipes ( talk) 01:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
But some of the participants are notable as far as MMA goes, are you wanting to redirect ALL of them to the TUF article?Sepulwiki 22:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Today I've run into several instances in fighter histories where the flag next to a fighter's name seems to be stereotypically chosen based on their name. I noticed it when in the Frank Lester (fighter) article, an anon IP changed the flag next to Cosmo Chiles from Mexico to Cuba. I tried doing some research on Chiles and found nothing to suggest he's Cuban or Mexican (he currently fights out of California, but that doesn't mean much). Looking around, I see other instances of where a 'red-linked' fighter has a flag next to their name, but there is nothing to suggest why that flag was chosen; neither can I find a source suggesting what their nationality is (sporting or otherwise).
So my question is, should flags next to fighters names representing their sporting nationality be sourced, particularly for 'red-linked' fighters? If not, how do we ensure that the correct flag is next to the fighter's name? -- TreyGeek ( talk) 21:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need to link to fighters who don't have pages at wikipedia? Seems kind of pointless. Plus the red is an eyesore. Also because everyone seems to link the fighters name reagrdless if that fighter has a page at wikipedia a lot of fighters links will get redirected to someone who is more prominent with the same name who actually have a wikipedia page. So someone say came and looked at a fighters wikipedia page and were looking at their fight record click on one of the opponents and it goes to a policticians page or something along those lines they'd be lead to believe that fighter fought a 80 year old politician.
So should we only link to fighters who atcually have a wikipedia page? It seems the more logical thing to do. Thoughts?
Omar Rodriguez ( talk) 14:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Input welcome. -- aktsu ( t / c) 14:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
on Bobby Lashley's article, the Pro Wrestling infobox was replaced with the MMA one. This is fine, but now there is no record of ringnames (this applies to all wrestlers who jump, but only so far affects him. he used to compete as Blaster Lashley in OVW) 77.102.18.231 ( talk) 16:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, not too sure if i'm putting this in the right spot. Just wondering why most of the fight results in articles such as ufc 94 or ufc 99 etc. don't have a source for the match results? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.220.188.111 ( talk) 22:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi there, kind of new to wikipedia. I have a bit of a hankering to do some writing and I figure this is the best place to do it, since I have some knowledge of MMA and a love of the UFC.So what can I do to help this project? I don't know very much about editing articles at all, but I'm willing to learn if somebody has the time to teach. I could be a very valuable edition to this project. Aj10101 ( talk) 05:53, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Stanardize the "Mixed martial arts record"-section. Include win-loss in each fighter. Makes it much easier for data-gathering! I'm currently writing a script, but I've already noticed many differing versions. Inluding the "breakdown"-section. Some adds draws, some adds no contest. There no standard anywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mazter00 ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there is a possible Copyright violation with James Wilks at brief glance its almost identical to his bio page from his official website. Jimmy Skitz's Answer Machine 20:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not completely sure how to attack this, but let's consider this first: how does the notability guideline for athletes work with MMA? I'm thinking one could interpret it as either 1) all professional fighters are notable (which would mean next to everybody; many states hasn't even implemented amateur competition and if so it's mostly used for promoters to avoid paying instead of for actual amateur-level fighters) or 2) only fighters at the top level of competition is notable ("fully professional level" as opposed to only a professional level).
The problem with interpretation 1 is obvious and would mean we should create or own guidelines specific for MMA (similar to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_arts/Notability) to avoid allowing everyone having fought MMA ever an article. #2 is far more reasonable, but requires us to get a consensus for where we draw the line.
I guess that this ( WP:ATHLETE in regards to MMA and notability for fighters in general) is something that's not really urgent or currently a problem, but it's something that needs to be decided eventually IMO. Agreeing on an interpertation of WP:ATHLETE would be a start at least. Thoughts? -- aktsu ( t / c) 18:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
At face value, this would appear to include most professional mixed martial artists, but in practice should probably include those who have had at least one, and preferably several fights in an established professional fight promotion (e.g. not a startup promotion).
(break) Not beat a point in the ground- but I did state that fighting in the last 3 years as part of the above criteria. All TUF winners fit in that category. Tell you what, Let me do what I got based on the above criteria - and err on the side of caution - and then I'll post a list, I can stub the one you people want to keep next week sometime. I don;t mean to be a bear here- but its a pain in the rear to try to get things looking good. David.snipes ( talk) 13:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Im still unclear as far as guidelines here goes, i focus more on Wikipedia Portugues, but i can say that if a fighter has had a sufficient amount of fights for the major tier promotions said above, UFC, WEC, IFL, etc, has fought in the last couple years or so, and has fought a sufficient amount of fighters with articles should be enough to at least establish the page, what we need to figure out is how to come to an agreement about the matter. User:Sepulwiki ( talk) 22:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
On our project page there is a section regarding determining the notability of fighters. Based on the discussion above, here is a proposal for how the section could be rewritten:
To determine whether a fighter is notable enough to be deserving of their own Wikipedia article the following guidelines can be used:
- The fighter has competed on the main card of several events of a high-level professional fight promotion. Examples of high-level fight promotions are: Affliction, Dream, EliteXC, Hero's, Sengoku, Strikeforce, and UFC.
- The fighter has won a championship with a mid-level professional fight promotion. Examples of mid-level fight promotions are: Cage Warriors, Deep, IFL, Pancrase, and WEC.
A couple of points from the discussion not here is mention of a specific number of fights. My thinking is that good judgment would be better than specifying 3, 5, 10, or 50 fights. There were also a couple mentions of a time-based determination. Again, I think good judgment is best here, as someone who hasn't fought in a number of years and has yet to have an article may still be notable.
Comments, suggestions, blasts? -- TreyGeek ( talk) 16:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
How's something along these lines?
When considering if a fighter is notable enough for it's own article the guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people) (except the additional criteria for athletes) takes precedent over anything on this page. The criteria below should be considered a replacement for WP:ATHLETE as the status of being a "professional" in MMA is not equivalent to other sports.
Generally a fighter is considered notable if:
- The fighter has competed extensivly at the international level of the sport. That would include multiple apperances on the main part of events promoted by the likes of the UFC, Pride FC, EliteXC, WEC, Strikeforce, Affliction, Dream, Sengoku and in professional Shooto.
- The fighter has won a championship or been in contestation of a championship in a major national promotion. Such promotions would include King of the Cage, Deep, Cage Warriors and Pancrase.
The tiers probably needs refining though. Thoughts? -- aktsu ( t / c) 18:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
It's been almost two weeks since the last comment on this issue. I was thinking of coming in here and offering up another proposal for notability of MMA fighters. However, I see that there hasn't been any real comments or suggests to the version posted last by Aktsu. I've made some slight copy-edits and some minor wording changes to offer it back for discussion:
When considering if a fighter is notable enough for an article, the guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people) (except the additional criteria for athletes) takes precedence over anything on this page. The criteria below should be considered a replacement for WP:ATHLETE as the status of being a "professional" in MMA is not equivalent to other sports.
Generally a fighter is considered notable if:
- The fighter has competed extensively at the international level of the sport. That would include multiple appearances in events promoted by UFC, Pride FC, EliteXC, WEC, Strikeforce, Affliction, Dream, Sengoku, other similar organizations, and in professional Shooto.
- The fighter has won a championship or been a contestant of a championship match in a major national promotion. Such promotions would include King of the Cage, Deep, Cage Warriors, Pancrase, and other similar organizations.
Given the time to sleep on it, does anyone have anything they'd want to amend to this version of notability guidelines? The eventual goal would be to replace the text that currently resides at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts#Notability of fighters. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 05:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
In football, the guideline has been interpreted as being one that would let the player live without having to have another job. So Arena football, yes, AF2, which only pays $200 a game, no. Under that precedent, I would say that Aktsu, as edited by TreyGeek, has got it pretty good in terms of which organization provide the opportunity for the fighter to live on just fighting.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 23:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
For anyone who may be interested there is a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeremy May in regards to whether the Jeremy May article should be deleted or not. One of the common basis for keeping it is that May is notable as per WP:Athlete. One of the people making this argument states that unless the MMA Wikiproject comes to a consensus on its own determination of notability WP:Athlete takes precedence. I've put up an argument that WP:Athlete is a guideline and doesn't have to be followed to a 'tee', but still, the argument is out there in case anyone is interested in discussing the May article (there) or MMA fighter notability in general (here). -- TreyGeek ( talk) 18:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The claim that Gina Carano and Cristiane Santos are "the the consensus two best female fighters in the world" is sourced to this article at Foxsports.com which is apparantly written by InsideFights.com. I have a huge problem with that statement and the statement that the fight is "the first women in MMA history to headline a major MMA fight card". To dispute the first claim, see e.g. Sherdogs Unofficial Female Pound-for-Pound MMA Rankings compiled by Jordan Breen and Mike Fridley and WAMMA's female rankings (note they have multiple weight classes, Carano and Santos are #1 and #3 in one). For the second claim I'd point to cards held by female-only promotions such as the defunct Smackgirl and the new Valkyrie and Jewels promotions.
So, per WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources I'd like to either see these claims properly sourced (i.e. multiple sources for it; I think this is impossible) or removed and instead changed to simply state the facts (two people are fighting for a championship). Thoughts?-- aktsu ( t / c) 01:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
(de-indent) In my opinion, I think phrases such as "world class" or "best in the world" should not be used in any Wikipedia article. If only for the fact that such a wording could quickly change when something better comes along. If someone or something is truly the best thing since sliced bread, or any other like description, then there would be a lot of sources to back up such a claim. Without numerous, or at least several, sources cited for such a statement on a Wikipedia article, then it should be removed, (again) in my opinion. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 23:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Awhile back I started editing event articles and placing a section under 'Announced matchups' titled 'Unknown Card'. This is a place to put fights that had reliable sources, yet have not been placed in to the official fight card yet. It has seemed to work out fairly well, but I've never quite been happy with the way it looks. I would like to get some thoughts on a new structure which can be seen here: UFC 101 (sandbox) vs. what is in place now: UFC 101. Personally I think it looks better. -- Drr-darkomen ( talk) 02:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
There's disagreement about the inclusion of a section about his video-blog where he attacked Loretta Hunt at Talk:Dana_White#Controversy. Input appreciated. -- aktsu ( t / c) 12:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I'm trying to find out whether King of the cage is 'fully professional' in the sense required by WP:ATHLETE. A reply at Talk:Victorville, California would be greatly appreciated. Olaf Davis ( talk) 08:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Have seen many variations on this theme within UFC/Strikeforce/WEC event articles. "Main Card" seems fairly universal; I think we should come to some sort of consensus on what to name non-main card bouts. Fire away! -- Drr-darkomen ( talk) 03:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 10 |
The projects style in articles do not correspond with Wikipedia's guideline on Manual of Style with flags. Martial Arts record boxes and results pages like for UFC 87 do not need flags next to each competitors name, it is emphasizing the nationality of them without a good reason and and unnessecarily clutters articles and the boxes. The main reasons flagicons are legitametly used are: aiding in navigation in long lists or tables of countries, putting single flags in infoboxes and in sporting articles where the country the flag represents and the players nationalities may differ. None of the appropriate uses are applied here and the style guides here should be changed to reflect this. — Moe ε 05:34, 10 August 2008 (UTC)
"They are useful in articles about international sporting events to show the representative nationality of players (which may differ from their legal nationalities)." That's under WP:FLAGS#Appropriate use. Sorry I missed that before, but it clearly states flags are permissible in sporting articles—with no distinction between individual and team sports. Now, in WP:MMA, we have flags in bio infoboxes (which are rightfully being removed), fight records, event pages and various events and champion lists. You seem to have the most problem with fight records and event pages. So lets start from there: Fight records are not prose. They are also not merely decorative and are useful in showing the scope and reach of a fighter's experience. The only issue that I see is whether the usage of the flags is considered overuse and cluttered, and frankly, that's a subjective opinion and you need a consensus for that judgement.
As for event pages, I don't see flags in prose. What I do see them being used is in list items: "Welterweight bout: (flag) Fighter A vs. (flag) Fighter B." To me, that is not "writing that resembles everyday speech", as Wikipedia defines it. There's no sentence there—no subject or predicate. Again, whether it looks cluttered or not is up to the judgement of the consensus but for whether this is prose or not, it doesn't look much different than something like 2006 FIFA World Cup#Scorers with an added preface. In short, I don't see where by fiat WP:FLAGS states that flags are being used inappropriately. I think you need a consensus before you can say authoritatively anything like that. hateless 20:11, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
Hateless, you said:
Yes, it is, but the only problem with that is MMA fights like UFC, are not international sporting events. A international sporting event is two nations competing against eachother, like FIFA and the Olympics. You seem to be ignoring the fact that sporting events your citing for using flagicons are also having the country name listed in the tables beforehand, i.e. a correct way to use flagicons in sporting event articles. All you need to do to correct the problem is add the name of the country the flag represents in the results and everything will be alright with it. The way it is, is not in compliance with WP:FLAG, no matter what angle you swing it, because all correct uses are also with the countries name listed in the article somewhere. — Moe ε 13:16, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
An editor has been creating quite a few articles about mixed martial artists which consist of just a {{ MMAstatsbox}} and sometimes an infobox. This project's input would be appreciated at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#"Disruptive" article creation?. Cheers. lifebaka ++ 13:47, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
I've put this project under the care of my bot to generate a watchlist that encompasses all MMA articles which will be updated daily. Hopefully, this'll help us catch subtle vandalism and nasty BLP violations a little sooner; the list is located here. east718 // talk // email // 00:12, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I would appreciate any help with the current issues at the Lee Hasdell article. The short version is I removed and rewrote major parts of the article removing non-NPOV and two instances of copyvio (text copied from pbp-reports etc). ClaudioProductions ( talk · contribs) who appears to have written major parts of the article took issue with my edits and reverted all of them. I have explained my edits on his talk page, but he still don't agree and his last message to me contained "stop undoing my work. Are you determind to ruin it or something ?. Im going to keep changing it back so give up now".
The article was basically full of statements like "Hasdell was very impressive, winning by KO", "In a memorable match", "Hasdell won the prestigious Oktagon Challenge", "Hasdell lossed [..] in a very tough fight", "a spectacular flying knee", "he floored Kasteel twice in the first round [...] in a very short but action packed match", "he fought in the Absolute Fighting Challenge, which was the worlds toughest no holds barred mixed martial arts event in the world", "Hasdell was very unfortunate", "Hasdell's final fight for RINGS was against the No.1 Heavyweight in the world Fedor Emelianenko" (he wasn't at the time, and who decides who is #1 anyway?) aswell as unsourced statements about him being "the Godfather of UK MMA, as he is the first and most experienced mixed martial artist in the country".
ClaudioProductions is abviously a fan of Hasdell and doesn't want me to change an article he has worked hard on even though much of it is against WP policy related to WP:NPOV and WP:V. -- aktsu ( t / c) 17:00, 24 August 2008 (UTC)
Hey all...I'm not a member of this project, but I do check in every now and then because I'm a member of WP:PW and we have quite a bit of article overlap. Anyway, on this visit I noticed you had a featured list so I added the FL option to Template:WikiProject Mixed martial arts. Now, FLs will be sorted into Category:FL-Class mixed martial arts articles instead of Category:FA-Class mixed martial arts articles. This makes assessment clearer and is more accurate. Just wanted to make everyone aware of the new option. Enjoy. :) Nikki 311 20:00, 29 August 2008 (UTC)
There is a discussion going on about (surprisingly enough :D) the format of the event pages at WT:WikiProject Mixed martial arts/Event pages format. Input would be appreciated. -- Aktsu ( t / c) 02:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.
We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.
A list of selected articles with cleanup tags, sorted by project, is available. The list is automatically updated each hour when it is loaded. Please try to fix any urgent problems in the selected articles. A team of copyeditors has agreed to help with copyediting requests, although you should try to fix simple issues on your own if possible.
We would also appreciate your help in identifying the version of each article that you think we should use, to help avoid vandalism or POV issues. These versions can be recorded at this project's subpage of User:SelectionBot/0.7. We are planning to release the selection for the holiday season, so we ask you to select the revisions before October 20. At that time, we will use an automatic process to identify which version of each article to release, if no version has been manually selected. Thanks! For the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team, SelectionBot 22:44, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
So, a note was recently added to the Joe Son article about him being charged with rape. I rewrote it because the version I saw was a copyvio of the source, but I'm concerned that with a single source, TMZ, there might be some WP:BLP issues. Since I don't have much experience with that, I wanted to bring it to other editor's attention, so someone could maybe take a look at it. gnfnrf ( talk) 01:58, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
New article, needs lot of work. -- Nate 14 81 13:24, 10 October 2008 (UTC)
Some time ago Wikiproject Boxing deleted their list. Ours is getting long as well but I don't think we should delete it yet, my suggestion is to keep blue links only and add a new names after the articles are being created. Marty Rockatansky ( talk)
What do you guys think about the "notes" sections in record tables? My feeling is that that they just add clutter and are more appropriate in the prose anyway. I've been seeing numerous edit wars breaking out recently over the most useless information in these little sidebars (sample: "Fighter A was cut by Fighter B in this match!"). It's also POV to determine what merits mentioning in the condensed sections. Perhaps we should remove them entirely if we can't exactly determine what to do with them. east718 // talk // email // 22:20, 22 October 2008 (UTC)
i stumbled across List of Mixed Martial Artists with Professional Boxing Records quite by accident this morning (checking past vandalism by a random ip, of all things), and have cleaned it up a bit. it's practically orphaned, and i'm not sure what to do with it. it IS the sort of thing that i've looked for once or twice in the past, so if it's fleshed out it could prove useful. pauli133 ( talk) 13:54, 29 October 2008 (UTC)
I think we should rename the article to "Dynamite!! 2008". Fields is just a main sponsor. The full name of the event on the official japanese poster translates "Dynamite!! - Power of Courage 2008 - Marty Rockatansky ( talk) 15:20, November 20, 2008
There is currently some issues over two articles that have been created for Daniel Cramer. Daniel Cramer(fighter) was first created and matches what is used in the TUF article & template. Dan Cramer was created afterwards which was a copy/paste from the original article. Daniel Cramer(figher) was blanked and then a request for deletion was posted in favor of Dan Cramer. There are currently a couple questions that need to be answered, and hopefully people here will chime in.
There are discussion pages at Talk:Dan Cramer and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Daniel Cramer(fighter) on this issue. Thanks for stopping by either place and providing your input. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 19:57, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I ran into this article that had been brutally vandalized. I reverted it back to what I think was the last clean version, but if anyone knows about this guy and wants to double check my work i'd appreciate it.-- Cube lurker ( talk) 01:20, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
(for the most part, TUF)
I feel that by the terms outlined by the Wikimedia Foundation ("... the sum of all knowledge..."?), we should include exhibition bouts to record tables. Obviously with a denotation to them. Just tonight I added bouts to all of the light heavyweights on TUF 8, and marked the record frame with "EXH" and if applicable, added a subsequent note. -- Piranesi2007 ( talk) 02:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about how the Forrest Griffin vs. Rashad Evans title fight ended at UFC 92. Because Griffin said he did not submit, and because the UFC lists the fight as a TKO, I added that it was a TKO in the articles. Another editor, user:2008Olympian, and an IP address have been quoting Sherdog, saying that the fight ended in submission. Any thoughts on what to do? Chicken Wing ( talk) 16:05, 28 December 2008 (UTC)
I would like to see each fighters base pay listed in the fight history table. I think it provides some insight into the future of the fighters. For example, Cheick Kongo was paid $45k for his fight in UFC 92. This is a fighter that has been scheduled for un-aired fights in the past. I think his $45k salary tells you that the UFC has plans for him to move up to a title shot.
There are other benefits of listing purses like showing the progression and increasing popularity of the sport, providing some information on the business side of fighting etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.48.34.47 ( talk) 23:42, 1 January 2009 (UTC)
I am informing this project that I have suggested merging supercard, undercard, and main event into card (sports) because some/all of those articles may be used by you all. The conversation is taking place at Talk:Card (sports). Nikki♥ 311 01:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)
If anyone is interested, some input on the issues at the Lee Hasdell article would be very much appreciated. At the moment it's pretty much only me and ClaudioProductions, who have a COI being Hasdell's son, discussing them. Thanks in advance. -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:16, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Is there an official format for the MMA Record table? I was looking at them hoping to standardize them, but I couldn't find any real official format that would help with the ordering, whether or not to include the location and/or record, and the title of the section. jhanCRUSH ( talk) 23:20, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
There's a discussion about whether to use 'purse' or 'salary' to describe the reported payout to fighters on Talk:UFC 94 is anyone if interested. -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:48, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
Guys, we need to add 'reach' to the fighter info column. Before EVERY UFC fight they do "the tale of the tape" which measures height, weight, age, and reach. Reach is a pretty important stat anyway, so I'm going to modify the template for fighters info box to include it. Then I'm going to edit a few fighter by hand and hopefully others can do the rest. Floodo1 ( talk) 19:33, 14 February 2009 (UTC) Please discuss any objections:
I was pretty sure some of us agreed that MMABay isn't a reliable source somewhere, but I can't find it! Can we just quickly form a consensus that it isn't so and be done with it? As "evidence" I'd like to point to this article from January 11 where it was "exclusively revealed" that Rampage would face Evans at UFC 100, which were to take place on July 4 (it's actually scheduled to take place on July 11). While it's funny that Rampage-Evans actually might take place should Rampage beat Jardine, MMABay claimed the UFC have already pencilled the pair in to headline the celebrations on the UFC 100 card, which was of course not the case. Thing like that, and the fact that everything is written by Michael Pepper, and the fact that the website probably is made in Frontpage should be enough to establish that it's not a reliable source per WP:RS. Thought? -- aktsu ( t / c) 22:54, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Hello everyone. I recently put some work into expanding the Lyoto Machida article. In the process, however, I've been butting heads with an anonymous editor. I don't want to wage a one-man edit war with this individual, so I was wondering if some third parties from this project could swing by the article and take a look. - Captain Crawdad ( talk) 23:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
I am going to bite the bullet and nominate Fedor for Feature-article status. I am sure it will need a ton of work, so please pitch in and let's see if we can get our first FA!-- 2008Olympian chitchat 08:34, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
I've seen some articles italicize the events (eg UFC 92) in the prose. Is this part of a MOS guideline I'm unaware of? Thanks. Bad intentionz ( talk) 23:36, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Caio Morone ( talk · contribs) seem to disagree with me that we should not list scheduled/upcoming fights in the fight record as he uncommented my commenting of the Silva-Franklin-fight. WP:CRYSTAL is one reason for not listing, and that it is a major source for vandalism is another. Can we get a consensus for one or the other? -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:55, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
<-Just a thought but hwy not use the comments <!-- --> to make a note saying 'Please leave scheduled fight hidden till after the event' or some such -- Nate 14 81 11:14, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Diff. This guy have been changing it to that for months now, and I have been reverting him. Can somebody help out? -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:05, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The result of this discussion was no consensus one way or the other. Please read the section below to furthur discuss the topic and come to a consensus. — Moe ε 06:59, 24 February 2009 (UTC)
I was thinking we should address how we handle flags for people with multiple nationalities/dual citizenship etc. I'm getting a bit tired of seeing people edit war over the flag for say Brandon Vera, or having to revert good faith edits changing to subnational flags. Those are not huge problems or anything, but I was thinking I might as well bring it up.
I would be in favor of getting rid of them altogether as per MOS:FLAG etc., but going by the previous discussion people find them too pretty (I did as well for a while) as well as helpful in showing the scope and reach of a fighter's experience (quoting hateless), which I can see the point in - though it's not as relevant today as it was a few years ago.
Anyway, besides getting rid of them - is there anything we can do/decide on? If anything, I thing a consensus to use the flag the promotion use would be helpful. (That would make Vera American for those wondering). -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:55, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
Abstain While I dont see that having flags is bothersome, I'm mixed. On one hand I think that they have almost zero significance within the context of MMA itself, because it's not a nation based sport. Flags for things like the olympics matter because it's based on athletes representing countries. However in MMA where you come from is just a minor statistic. However, on the other hand, I personally value knowing roughly where each fighter came from, because I have stereotypes about say being from brazil probably mans you have excellent BJJ. I also don't think it's very bothersome to have a little flag denoting the country of origin for a fighter. Finally, there is the issue of which flag do you use for someone that is from Brazil and fought fights from there, but then moves to the US and according to the ufc pre-fight footage "is fighting out of _____, USA"? Which flag do you use? his country of origin and early carreer, or do you give him an american flag just because he moved here now?
Oppose The flags do not belong in any infobox (fighter or event) per MOS:FLAG, but on the event pages I support their use in the matchup sections. -- 2008Olympian chitchat 04:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Strong Support We're actually dealing with a few different problems here. Problem #1 is that, as I read it, flag usage to indicate nationality of fighters (for records, event matchups, etc.) is a clear contradiction of MOS:FLAG. MOS:FLAG does reference the usage of flags in sports-related articles, and I think that's fine. But the references are about people who compete in sports that have teams representing particular nations, not for individuals who fight on teams that have nothing to do with a nation. For example, take this quote from the section dealing with sportspersons:
The qualifier "sporting nationality" is critical here. We're talking about someone who represents a particular national team. For example, what if we have a person with dual French-US citizenship competing in the Olympics for France's official national team? In that case, a US flag icon would be inappropriate, because the competitor's "sporting nationality" for that event is French, not US. A flag icon may be appropriate for that; not because it's a "sport" and flags should be used for anyone who competes in a sport, but because the person is representing a nation-state and the flag icon can help to highlight that.
This reasoning has no application in MMA, and in fact the usage of flags in our record tables does just what MOS:FLAG says not to do: it emphasizes "nationality", but not "sporting nationality." MMA fighters do not fight to represent countries/nations, they represent themselves (or, arguably, their camps). They have no "sporting nationality" because there's no official national teams in MMA. Take Marcus Aurelio for example. He is Brazilian, but fights for American Top Team out of Coconut Creek, FL, USA. He's not fighting for a Brazilian team, yet fight records for his opponents have next to his name. Why? He's not representing Brazil in MMA, so why are we emphasizing that?
The important point is that flag icons are for emphasis, not simply to convey some information about a person. You put a flag icons in there, and you're saying: "Representing Brazil: Marcus Aurelio. Representing the USA: Tyson Griffin." The emphasis is not only not needed in the article, it's also not even accurate, since those people aren't representing those countries in combat. Marcus Aurelio is a Brazilian-born mixed martial artist; he is not a mixed martial artist who represents the country of Brazil.
Problem #2 is the overuse of flag icons pair with the location of fights. What information does "Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA" convey that "Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, USA" does not? What is the purpose of the flag icon in these records? It needlessly emphasizes the country the fight took place in. The country is irrelevant. Really, who cares that the fight was in the US? I'm not saying that the "location" column should be removed from the record box, but the country itself is not so important to the fight or event that it must be emphasized. " Las Vegas, Nevada, USA" is really saying "Las Vegas, Nevada, UNITED FRIGGIN' STATES OF FRIGGIN' AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
hateless commented earlier that the flag icons were created for sports, and MMA should not be the single exception that bans flags. Well, we're not. Most baseball articles do not flag the nationality of their players. Neither do basketball, football, or hockey articles. In the instances where they do, I would argue that they suffer from the same problem we're addressing here: needless emphasis of nationality. These fighters are not acting as national representatives of their sports, and their nationality does not play an important role in describing the fight between two parties. MOS:FLAG is there for a reason, and the current usage of flags in MMA articles is squarely against the MOS without good reason for doing so. Enforce the policy; remove the flags. Gromlakh ( talk) 06:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
So that everyone wins, I would prefer if the WP:FLAG issues were resolved with the flags remaining intact. Please see:
This way the core issues with WP:FLAG is resolved and the flags are still there. — Moe ε 19:45, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
I edited it, now there is no flag column, only a fighting out of column on UFC 1. I also edited the MMA stats box on Efrain Escudero. Please tell me what you think so I can improve on it. — Moe ε 20:39, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
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I give up trying to help if editors keep reverting obvious violations of manual of style of these icons. And just FYI Marty Rockatansky, just because there are other violations of it widespread across Wikipedia doesn't mean it is widely accepted to violate the guideline when it explicitly says to do otherwise. Goodbye. — Moe ε 22:57, 12 February 2009 (UTC)
If we're going to continue to use the flags as we currently do, I say we decide to use the flag the promotion list for the fighter i.e. "what they fight under" as opposed to wherever they're born/live or similar. What do we think? -- aktsu ( t / c) 10:14, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
According to the administrator I spoke to, we shouldn't be using flags on any article regarding MMA unless we have a reliable reference that tells us that this is a international sporting event, where fighters are representing a country and that the reliable source has to actually use flags. He took a quick look at the UFC website and from what he saw, he did not see anything that remotely looks like a international sporting event. Most international sporting events have a list of people by what country they represent; he only found lists of fighters by weight class. Without references for what flags they represent, then they should all be removed. However, if you actually find a reliable reference with flags next to their names that proves that the flags mean anything it could be a different story. Flags just added by Wikipedia editors without a reference violates several guidelines outside of WP:FLAG. If this issue is not corrected, I will take further steps to remove them. — Moe ε 18:36, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
I just realized something when getting the reach for GSP and BJ; the above proposal won't work. The flag they use on the tale of the tape is birthcountry. :| -- aktsu ( t / c) 17:43, 16 February 2009 (UTC)
What we need to do is to use a reliable source to determine which flag to use. Also, flags are prohibited in all infoboxes, so the discussion is about what to use on the matchup portions of event pages only. If anyone has a reliable source for which country each fighter "fights out of," then wonderful. I am unsure if such a source exists. Sherdog is a possibility, but I think it uses nationality. No matter what it is to be, it needs to work for every fighter to prevent edit wars. -- 2008Olympian chitchat 05:00, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
Why not merge this Project into WP:PW and create a new bigger project that can officially be considered the most active WikiProject in all of Wikipedia and one with most of the accomplishments. Ra agg io 10:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)
No these shouldnt be merged together. Is Professional wrestling MMA? NO. keep the projects seperate. Further is Judo, BJJ, or tawkwando MMA? NO! each deserves their own project, as each are seperate fields with equal stature. However creating a combat sports project wouldnt violate this argument as it's broader than any of these other projects (mma, judo, bjj etc) but it's OVERLY broad. Specifically the issue is that within each project you should be able to have templates and consistency in formatting and (hopefully) style across the ENTIRE project. I dont think you can do this if you merge anything else with MMA. Finally, professional wrestlying IS NOT A SPORT. There are no true referees, and there is generally a predetermined outcome. While it MAY be the case that professional wrestlers are more or less athletic than MMA fighters, that bears no relevance on this distinction between sport and entertainment.....name one other sport that specifically refers to itself as "(world wide) ENTERTAINMENT" Floodo1 ( talk) 19:47, 14 February 2009 (UTC)
I'm trying to compile an article for current MMA fighter and former college wrestler standout Marcus LeVesseur. I have created an article on my namespace User:Calebrw/Marcus LeVesseur. My opinion is that he is notable based solely on his wrestling career, but as there is no College Wrestling Wikiproject, I'm asking here.
Could someone tell me if he is indeed notable. If so I'll proceed with the article, but if not I'll keep it on my namespace until I can flesh out the article.
He's been covered in USA Today as well as local newspapers/TV stations and college wrestling websites. There are plenty of sources out there. Googling "Marcus LeVesseur" brings 2,710 results.
As far as wrestling goes, he's the only Division III to win 4 national championships. He was undefeated and untied in his college career, going 155-0, second only to Cael Sanderson at 159-0. He won four Minnesota state championships. Since he last loss, he went 296-0 in high school and college. He also competed at the international level and won at least one national juniors title.
He was a highly recruited player in high school. He originally went to the University of Minnesota before transferring to Augsburg College. Teams at Augsburg won two team national titles: 2005 and 2007.
Thanks and your thoughts are appreciated. Calebrw ( talk) 15:15, 18 February 2009 (UTC)
It seems that after about a month of waiting, the Wanderlei Silva vs. Quinton Jackson has been officially listed as Wikipedia Good Article! I am very happy to report this information because it was my first article, and I really didn't know what to expect going into the review process. Perhaps more importantly though, in the process of the review we were able to establish a list of MMA reliable sources. Here are the MMA sources used in the article, and were given OKs:
Probably "top tiered", or guaranteed reliable sources:
Not sure, but have very credible partnerships:
Beyond that, there are the obvious that will of course be reliable, like Yahoo! Sports, CBSSports, NBCSports, etc. I'll add more to the list as I come across them. Bad intentionz ( talk) 00:40, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.
All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot ( Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 06:02, 28 February 2009 (UTC)
There is a current debate at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (icons) whether to permit the use of flag icons in the MMA record box in the articles of fighters; namely, whether MMA competitions are "international sporting events" under the guideline, and if so, what source should be used to verify the nationality. Please feel free to express your opinion on the issue.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 04:53, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
:: After watching it myself, I agree that the flags, as used, emphasize nationality against the terms of the guideline and should probably go.--
2008Olympian
chitchat 06:04, 24 February 2009 (UTC) see comment below--
2008Olympian
chitchat
02:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
We have a viable source for actual nationality, per Sherdog fighter databases. Why can't we assume the actual nationality is the sporting nationality in the absence of a stated preference for sporting nationality, as what the general practice of the world media appears to be? Otherwise, the majority of the flags used on baseball, cycling, boxing, etc. articles where most of their athletes do not play under an explicitly stated sporting nationality are in violation. Also, there is no new development. The UFC is very clear the flag represents the birthcountry for a long time, and the discussion on WT:ICONS didn't go anywhere. hateless 01:17, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
Want definitive proof? Below someone listed bleacherreport.com as a reliable source: see what they got to say? [14]
That good enough for you? Written in black and white: it is not a international sporting event and international sporting events are based on teams of peoples by nationality. — Moe ε 08:57, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
(Reply to hateless' comment above, was moved so might as well move it here) What is this good reason for using the flags then? Sorry, but I really don't see it... What is it the reason to specifically emphasize that this fighter is from this country beside nationalistic pride which the guideline suggest has no place on WP per the policy WP:NOT. -- aktsu ( t / c) 08:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
"Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense". Isn't that exactly what we're doing currently? MMA fighters have no "sporting nationality", they only have their own nationality. "Where flags are used in a table, it should clearly indicate that the flags represent sporting nationality, not nationality, if any confusion might arise" (emphasis mine). Sorry if this was already brought up (or rather, it has been but I can't remember anyone commenting on that specific line), but I just re-read MOS:FLAG. -- aktsu ( t / c) 10:09, 27 February 2009 (UTC)
I don't know if this makes a difference but what about situations where promotions do one country vs. another country theme. For example, UFC 58 or The Ultimate Fighter: U.S.A. vs. U.K.? Clearly in a case like this a fighter is representing a specific country even though they technically it's not one country vs. another country. Mmafan420 22"25. 27 February 2009 (UTC)
As for the new US v. UK show, that one is pretty clearly use of sporting nationality. If we want to hold that the actual nationality is the sporting nationality, I have no problem with that. There is definitely a use of nationality in MMA by the athletes. This is not the same as editors using Wikipedia to promote a point of view or push nationalistic pride. That is what I view the guideline as prohibiting. Do the articles on Muhammad Ali or Troy Aikman need to have American flags in them? Of course not. But the use of flags as we are using them in the MMA articles is not the same, it is a reflection of what is happening in the sport itself, and is therefore fair grounds for inclusion. What I am concerned with, and what prompted my earlier, now redacted, concession was the problems of verification of what hateless terms "a stated preference for sporting nationality" that would be other than the actual nationality. All I seek in this is that, if we use the flags, we have a reliable, verifiable source on which to base our country selection.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 02:41, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Can somebody explain how we are suppose to upload poster images for MMA events? I see them uploaded all the time for UFC events but I tried to upload one for Strikeforce: At The Mansion II and it was deleted. Any information would be helpful. I know Strikeforce doesn't care if their posters are used on wikipedia, they give these posters away for free. Mmafan420 ( talk) 02:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
Currently there are three groups under the template: Pay-per-view, Fight Nights, and The Ultimate Fighter finales. This isn't entirely accurate as there have been a number of PPV events that were free on Spike and never sold as a PPV.
Drr-darkomen ( talk) 15:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
What's the procedure for rumored bouts for upcoming events if they have references. I recently put a rumored bout for Strikeforce in Seattle but it was removed. Are rumored bouts not allowed for upcoming cards even when there are legitmate references? I might be mistaken but I think I've seen a few Japanese events like Dream where rumored particpants are added to the article leading up to the event. Any clarity would be appreciated. Thanks! Mmafan420 ( talk) 18:20, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for the feedback guys. Makes perfect sense. Mmafan420 ( talk) 02:27, 3 March 2009 (UTC)
I realize that I have been in error in placing the source of many references in the "work=" field instead of the "publisher=" field. They can both be used, for example "publisher=New York Times" and "work=nytimes.com", but the publisher field is required for a feature article.
I found this out during the Fedor FAC, which just had too much work to do in the allotted week or so a candidacy receives. I will address the many issues it raised and eventually renominate it. It had a lot of support for its subject matter and many reviewers said it was close. There was too much primary-source information from Fedor's website, the article suffered from what was called a "lightbulb format," where sections got smaller and smaller as the article progressed, and there was several references from sources that weren't considered reliable.
As for reliable sources, I think we need to set up a list on the project page of agreed reliable sources to which we can point the reviewers. The list above seems like a pretty good start. Any references showing that they are reliable would be helpful as well.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 02:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
I've gone to town on the Mike Brown article, adding a lot of content and references. I was wondering if anyone could help me find a free image for the page. I realize this page is probably low priority, but any help or advice would be much appreciated. -- jhan CRUSH 04:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)
There's an edit war over at UFC 94 with 63.3.1.2 ( talk · contribs) and 63.3.1.130 ( talk · contribs) wanting the result of the St-Pierre/Penn fight to be TKO by "corner stoppage" (which is Sherdog's result), while myself and others wanting it to echo NSAC's official result of "referee stoppage on doctor's advice". The issue was briefly brought up at Talk:UFC_94#Official_Results. I would think the right course of action would be to get a consensus for one or the other, so what do we think? I would say commission > everyone else. -- aktsu ( t / c) 22:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)
FYI, 63.3.1.2 ( talk · contribs) has been blocked from editing for 24 hours. Hopefully, this will end the problems from this user. However, we won't know for sure until tomorrow night as well as waiting to see if the other IP will behave as well. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 02:20, 18 March 2009 (UTC)
Just a quick heads-up; most (new) articles I see don't include all parameters for the various templates we use (i.e. Template:MMAstatsbox and Template:MMArecordbox). I just created Jung Chan Sung where I've made sure to include all of them, so if anyone is going to create any new articles you're welcome to copy from there to make sure all the fields are included. Cheers, -- aktsu ( t / c) 16:44, 20 March 2009 (UTC)
Should we consider creating separate articles for the Finales as opposed to them being included within the articles detailing the seasons? -- Drr-darkomen ( talk) 22:34, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Werger777 ( talk · contribs) does not seem to like the focus of our mixed martial arts article. He seemingly feels if emphasizes greco-roman wrestling more than MMA, and has thus decided to replace the existing image with a (copyvio, which is being dealt with, but that's not the point) more "fitting" image of Jon Jones suplexing Stephan Bonnar. (Which seems a little WP:POINTy to me, but hey.) I moved his concerns to the MMA-articles talk page. -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:18, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
Can someone look at the tournament bracket for TUF Rampage vs Forrest and tell me what you see for the final match. I'm seeing it as Dollaway in both halves of the match, however that's now what the code says when you edit it. I just want to make sure it's not just me or if the bracket coding is in error. Thanks all. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 00:58, 29 March 2009 (UTC)
For those of you who are interested, there is an ongoing discussion on the World Victory Road Presents: Sengoku 7 talk page in regards to which flag should be used for Nam Phan. Phan was born in the US and appears to still be a US citizen. In this event, the Japanese broadcast displayed a South Vietnam flag and an article calling him South Vietnamese has also been uncovered. His gi displays the South Vietnam flag on his left breast, a US flag on the right shoulder, and a Brazilian flag on the left shoulder. The debate is on which flag to use (between US and South Vietnam). If you have any interest in seeing what is discussed or want to put in your two cents, feel free to head over there. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 19:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
First of all, it is not my intention to start another flag debate. However, this specific issue was briefly mentioned in previous debates and I think what I am about to propose has support. I just want to double-check before I start making edits.
In some of the fighter articles, locations in the record boxes are preceded with a flag. (Ex from Junie Browning's article: Las Vegas, Nevada) My belief is that there is support to remove the flags in this case. I just wanted to make sure there was no argument against removing these location flags, particularly as I clean up TUF fighter pages. (NOTE: I will leave flags next to fighter's names alone.) -- TreyGeek ( talk) 23:59, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
What is the thought behind what cards are listed and what is not?
I understand that UFC and Pride get listings- but what about RINGS, Pancrase, Rage Cage etc? If the Promotion is listed under the "Professional mixed martial arts organizations" is that the cutoff so JoeBob Big honking MMA show doesn't make the cut? -- David.snipes ( talk) 01:32, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
Q. I hate to bring the subject up, but as other PPV's (noteably Pro-Wresting) has in the extrnal link section a show review (most to 411mania) Should we also link the cards to a good review? -- David.snipes ( talk) 15:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)
Evans hit Liddell with an overhead right knocking him to the ground and the fight was called by (can;t remember the ref) at 2:30 of the second round. Then on the External Links have a link to several sites Sherdog,411mania,ISC etc. that a person can go LOOK for more details & Opinion. -- David.snipes ( talk) 15:51, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
Looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bas_Rutten on his fight history All of the Pancrase shows (Pancrase-Truth 4 for example) have links to the wiki/Pancrase page neither the card or the organization -- David.snipes ( talk) 15:45, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
[17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22] [23]. That was only on the UFC 97 article, and only going back to the 8th. So, what do we use? -- aktsu ( t / c) 19:32, 17 February 2009 (UTC)
Any thought on including the weight(class) in the record tables? Seems pretty useful to me seeing as more and more people are fighting at multiple weights (relevant recent examples include Aoki being defeated by Sakurai at welterweight while being the WAMMA lightweight champ and the upcoming catchweight bouts Shamrock-Diaz and Silva-Franklin). I'll get on it if there's no objections. -- aktsu ( t / c) 23:37, 7 April 2009 (UTC)
13 Matches | 11 Wins | 2 Losses |
---|---|---|
Welterweight | 9 wins | 1 loss |
Middleweight | 1 win | 1 Loss |
Lightweight | 2 Wins | 0 Losses |
By Knockout | 7 wins | 1 Loss |
By Submission | 3 Wins | 0 Losses |
By Decision | 1 Win | 1 Loss |
-- David.snipes ( talk) 15:35, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
We are live. Looks decent on my screens, though they have pretty high resolutions. I was considering forcing each entry to be over two lines (that way all entries would be the same height no matter the content) but it didn't seem necessary. Feel free to edit or revert or whatever. If no-one complains I'll start implementing it on other pages and put it up at WP:MMA. -- aktsu ( t / c) 00:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys,
I've been working on a rewrite of the UFC 94 article, making it a much more extensive coverage of the event. I picked 94 because there were many issues to deal with (promotion, greasegate), etc, and thought sources would be abundant. I've been working on it for a couple of hours every night for the past week (exam period) and just got the initial draft up today. There are probably errors a-plenty so if you guys can be on the lookout for them that would be awesome.
If you guys like it, I think it'd be possible to expand a few more articles in this way as well. UFC 100 is definitely one we can look at it, along with 92, etc.
Things to do for UFC 94
I have to run now--more studying to do! Any comments or suggestions would be appreciated. Bad intentionz ( talk) 22:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
Is that fact sourced? I can't tell from the Sandbox. We're gonna need one for that I think. Other than that, keep up the good work. I look forward to reading the finished product. Bad intentionz ( talk) 07:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Alright, moved the "event"-section from the sandbox to the article. -- aktsu ( t / c) 16:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
I was looking over the Krzysztof Soszynski article. I noticed that a couple of the fight histories he is linked to (most recently Brian Stann) has a Polish flag next to his name. I'll change those to Canadian flags. But the more important thing I noticed is that Soszynski had a match against a "Marcus Hicks" in April 2008. The Marcus Hicks article doesn't have the Soszynski match listed. The Hicks article is one for Marcus "The Wrecking Ball" Hicks ( Sherdog). Soszynski fought against Marcus "The Loudmouth Assassin" Hicks ( Sherdog).
Does anyone have any idea how you handle two people in the same career/field? I'm going to unlink the incorrect Marcus Hicks' name in Soszynski's article. But how do we handle this potential conflict in the long term? What happens if both Hicks' deserves an article? -- TreyGeek ( talk) 01:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)
Reading the discussion of the fighters that fought on The Ultimate fighter but did ntohing of consequense following but are still minor parts of an significant event. What if we built a page for other fighters on the show? That way they still have an entry without having to give them the entire space (like the lists of other charaters on TV shows.
Someone MUCH better than me can make my concept less of an eyesore.
We could use the format like This one or This one David.snipes ( talk) 01:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
But some of the participants are notable as far as MMA goes, are you wanting to redirect ALL of them to the TUF article?Sepulwiki 22:43, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Today I've run into several instances in fighter histories where the flag next to a fighter's name seems to be stereotypically chosen based on their name. I noticed it when in the Frank Lester (fighter) article, an anon IP changed the flag next to Cosmo Chiles from Mexico to Cuba. I tried doing some research on Chiles and found nothing to suggest he's Cuban or Mexican (he currently fights out of California, but that doesn't mean much). Looking around, I see other instances of where a 'red-linked' fighter has a flag next to their name, but there is nothing to suggest why that flag was chosen; neither can I find a source suggesting what their nationality is (sporting or otherwise).
So my question is, should flags next to fighters names representing their sporting nationality be sourced, particularly for 'red-linked' fighters? If not, how do we ensure that the correct flag is next to the fighter's name? -- TreyGeek ( talk) 21:50, 6 May 2009 (UTC)
Do we really need to link to fighters who don't have pages at wikipedia? Seems kind of pointless. Plus the red is an eyesore. Also because everyone seems to link the fighters name reagrdless if that fighter has a page at wikipedia a lot of fighters links will get redirected to someone who is more prominent with the same name who actually have a wikipedia page. So someone say came and looked at a fighters wikipedia page and were looking at their fight record click on one of the opponents and it goes to a policticians page or something along those lines they'd be lead to believe that fighter fought a 80 year old politician.
So should we only link to fighters who atcually have a wikipedia page? It seems the more logical thing to do. Thoughts?
Omar Rodriguez ( talk) 14:36, 5 May 2009 (UTC)
Input welcome. -- aktsu ( t / c) 14:39, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
on Bobby Lashley's article, the Pro Wrestling infobox was replaced with the MMA one. This is fine, but now there is no record of ringnames (this applies to all wrestlers who jump, but only so far affects him. he used to compete as Blaster Lashley in OVW) 77.102.18.231 ( talk) 16:21, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
Hey guys, not too sure if i'm putting this in the right spot. Just wondering why most of the fight results in articles such as ufc 94 or ufc 99 etc. don't have a source for the match results? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.220.188.111 ( talk) 22:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)
Hi there, kind of new to wikipedia. I have a bit of a hankering to do some writing and I figure this is the best place to do it, since I have some knowledge of MMA and a love of the UFC.So what can I do to help this project? I don't know very much about editing articles at all, but I'm willing to learn if somebody has the time to teach. I could be a very valuable edition to this project. Aj10101 ( talk) 05:53, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
Stanardize the "Mixed martial arts record"-section. Include win-loss in each fighter. Makes it much easier for data-gathering! I'm currently writing a script, but I've already noticed many differing versions. Inluding the "breakdown"-section. Some adds draws, some adds no contest. There no standard anywhere. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mazter00 ( talk • contribs) 18:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I think there is a possible Copyright violation with James Wilks at brief glance its almost identical to his bio page from his official website. Jimmy Skitz's Answer Machine 20:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)
I'm not completely sure how to attack this, but let's consider this first: how does the notability guideline for athletes work with MMA? I'm thinking one could interpret it as either 1) all professional fighters are notable (which would mean next to everybody; many states hasn't even implemented amateur competition and if so it's mostly used for promoters to avoid paying instead of for actual amateur-level fighters) or 2) only fighters at the top level of competition is notable ("fully professional level" as opposed to only a professional level).
The problem with interpretation 1 is obvious and would mean we should create or own guidelines specific for MMA (similar to Wikipedia:WikiProject_Martial_arts/Notability) to avoid allowing everyone having fought MMA ever an article. #2 is far more reasonable, but requires us to get a consensus for where we draw the line.
I guess that this ( WP:ATHLETE in regards to MMA and notability for fighters in general) is something that's not really urgent or currently a problem, but it's something that needs to be decided eventually IMO. Agreeing on an interpertation of WP:ATHLETE would be a start at least. Thoughts? -- aktsu ( t / c) 18:48, 11 May 2009 (UTC)
At face value, this would appear to include most professional mixed martial artists, but in practice should probably include those who have had at least one, and preferably several fights in an established professional fight promotion (e.g. not a startup promotion).
(break) Not beat a point in the ground- but I did state that fighting in the last 3 years as part of the above criteria. All TUF winners fit in that category. Tell you what, Let me do what I got based on the above criteria - and err on the side of caution - and then I'll post a list, I can stub the one you people want to keep next week sometime. I don;t mean to be a bear here- but its a pain in the rear to try to get things looking good. David.snipes ( talk) 13:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
Im still unclear as far as guidelines here goes, i focus more on Wikipedia Portugues, but i can say that if a fighter has had a sufficient amount of fights for the major tier promotions said above, UFC, WEC, IFL, etc, has fought in the last couple years or so, and has fought a sufficient amount of fighters with articles should be enough to at least establish the page, what we need to figure out is how to come to an agreement about the matter. User:Sepulwiki ( talk) 22:19, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
On our project page there is a section regarding determining the notability of fighters. Based on the discussion above, here is a proposal for how the section could be rewritten:
To determine whether a fighter is notable enough to be deserving of their own Wikipedia article the following guidelines can be used:
- The fighter has competed on the main card of several events of a high-level professional fight promotion. Examples of high-level fight promotions are: Affliction, Dream, EliteXC, Hero's, Sengoku, Strikeforce, and UFC.
- The fighter has won a championship with a mid-level professional fight promotion. Examples of mid-level fight promotions are: Cage Warriors, Deep, IFL, Pancrase, and WEC.
A couple of points from the discussion not here is mention of a specific number of fights. My thinking is that good judgment would be better than specifying 3, 5, 10, or 50 fights. There were also a couple mentions of a time-based determination. Again, I think good judgment is best here, as someone who hasn't fought in a number of years and has yet to have an article may still be notable.
Comments, suggestions, blasts? -- TreyGeek ( talk) 16:18, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
How's something along these lines?
When considering if a fighter is notable enough for it's own article the guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people) (except the additional criteria for athletes) takes precedent over anything on this page. The criteria below should be considered a replacement for WP:ATHLETE as the status of being a "professional" in MMA is not equivalent to other sports.
Generally a fighter is considered notable if:
- The fighter has competed extensivly at the international level of the sport. That would include multiple apperances on the main part of events promoted by the likes of the UFC, Pride FC, EliteXC, WEC, Strikeforce, Affliction, Dream, Sengoku and in professional Shooto.
- The fighter has won a championship or been in contestation of a championship in a major national promotion. Such promotions would include King of the Cage, Deep, Cage Warriors and Pancrase.
The tiers probably needs refining though. Thoughts? -- aktsu ( t / c) 18:13, 13 May 2009 (UTC)
It's been almost two weeks since the last comment on this issue. I was thinking of coming in here and offering up another proposal for notability of MMA fighters. However, I see that there hasn't been any real comments or suggests to the version posted last by Aktsu. I've made some slight copy-edits and some minor wording changes to offer it back for discussion:
When considering if a fighter is notable enough for an article, the guidelines at Wikipedia:Notability and Wikipedia:Notability (people) (except the additional criteria for athletes) takes precedence over anything on this page. The criteria below should be considered a replacement for WP:ATHLETE as the status of being a "professional" in MMA is not equivalent to other sports.
Generally a fighter is considered notable if:
- The fighter has competed extensively at the international level of the sport. That would include multiple appearances in events promoted by UFC, Pride FC, EliteXC, WEC, Strikeforce, Affliction, Dream, Sengoku, other similar organizations, and in professional Shooto.
- The fighter has won a championship or been a contestant of a championship match in a major national promotion. Such promotions would include King of the Cage, Deep, Cage Warriors, Pancrase, and other similar organizations.
Given the time to sleep on it, does anyone have anything they'd want to amend to this version of notability guidelines? The eventual goal would be to replace the text that currently resides at Wikipedia:WikiProject Mixed martial arts#Notability of fighters. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 05:50, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
In football, the guideline has been interpreted as being one that would let the player live without having to have another job. So Arena football, yes, AF2, which only pays $200 a game, no. Under that precedent, I would say that Aktsu, as edited by TreyGeek, has got it pretty good in terms of which organization provide the opportunity for the fighter to live on just fighting.-- 2008Olympian chitchat 23:51, 27 May 2009 (UTC)
For anyone who may be interested there is a discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jeremy May in regards to whether the Jeremy May article should be deleted or not. One of the common basis for keeping it is that May is notable as per WP:Athlete. One of the people making this argument states that unless the MMA Wikiproject comes to a consensus on its own determination of notability WP:Athlete takes precedence. I've put up an argument that WP:Athlete is a guideline and doesn't have to be followed to a 'tee', but still, the argument is out there in case anyone is interested in discussing the May article (there) or MMA fighter notability in general (here). -- TreyGeek ( talk) 18:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
The claim that Gina Carano and Cristiane Santos are "the the consensus two best female fighters in the world" is sourced to this article at Foxsports.com which is apparantly written by InsideFights.com. I have a huge problem with that statement and the statement that the fight is "the first women in MMA history to headline a major MMA fight card". To dispute the first claim, see e.g. Sherdogs Unofficial Female Pound-for-Pound MMA Rankings compiled by Jordan Breen and Mike Fridley and WAMMA's female rankings (note they have multiple weight classes, Carano and Santos are #1 and #3 in one). For the second claim I'd point to cards held by female-only promotions such as the defunct Smackgirl and the new Valkyrie and Jewels promotions.
So, per WP:V#Exceptional claims require exceptional sources I'd like to either see these claims properly sourced (i.e. multiple sources for it; I think this is impossible) or removed and instead changed to simply state the facts (two people are fighting for a championship). Thoughts?-- aktsu ( t / c) 01:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
(de-indent) In my opinion, I think phrases such as "world class" or "best in the world" should not be used in any Wikipedia article. If only for the fact that such a wording could quickly change when something better comes along. If someone or something is truly the best thing since sliced bread, or any other like description, then there would be a lot of sources to back up such a claim. Without numerous, or at least several, sources cited for such a statement on a Wikipedia article, then it should be removed, (again) in my opinion. -- TreyGeek ( talk) 23:56, 18 June 2009 (UTC)
Awhile back I started editing event articles and placing a section under 'Announced matchups' titled 'Unknown Card'. This is a place to put fights that had reliable sources, yet have not been placed in to the official fight card yet. It has seemed to work out fairly well, but I've never quite been happy with the way it looks. I would like to get some thoughts on a new structure which can be seen here: UFC 101 (sandbox) vs. what is in place now: UFC 101. Personally I think it looks better. -- Drr-darkomen ( talk) 02:20, 12 May 2009 (UTC)
There's disagreement about the inclusion of a section about his video-blog where he attacked Loretta Hunt at Talk:Dana_White#Controversy. Input appreciated. -- aktsu ( t / c) 12:59, 30 June 2009 (UTC)
Hello. I'm trying to find out whether King of the cage is 'fully professional' in the sense required by WP:ATHLETE. A reply at Talk:Victorville, California would be greatly appreciated. Olaf Davis ( talk) 08:52, 14 July 2009 (UTC)
Have seen many variations on this theme within UFC/Strikeforce/WEC event articles. "Main Card" seems fairly universal; I think we should come to some sort of consensus on what to name non-main card bouts. Fire away! -- Drr-darkomen ( talk) 03:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)