This WikiProject LGBT project page is archived and is no longer actively maintained. Please post notices and questions at WT:LGBT. |
This project page was nominated for deletion on 16 June 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
Previous discussions:
I'm sure I mentioned Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mishk'vei ishah before. But I can't find it in this page's history, or archives.
Its still at AfD, if anyone wants to express their view. Newman Luke ( talk) 17:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Three years ago, John Bosco was a disputed article that was moderated and settled in this Wikipedia:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Notice_board/Archive_2. It appears that the two editors, who sparked the dispute, are back and trying to deleted the compromise. How does this case get re-opened?
There is a discussion related to LGBT issues at the Talk:2022 FIFA World Cup page. Grim23 ★ 02:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I propose that we add a commitment to accessibility and equality to the Five pillars. Please join discussion at Wikipedia talk:Five pillars#Accessibility and equality. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
There seems to have been a bit of a situation brewing at Liberace; over the past several months, there seems to have been a slow-motion edit war consisting of anonymous IPs removing LGBT-related categories from the article on the grounds that denying it during his lifetime somehow proves that he wasn't, followed by a signed-in Wikipedia editor later readding them, followed by another anonymous IP removing them again, lather, rinse, repeat.
Obviously this isn't acceptable, so I need to ask for some additional eyes to watchlist the article in case this crops up again. Thanks. Bearcat ( talk) 02:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
At time of writing, clicking the "What links here?" link at the Nan Joyce article shows that Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Noticeboard links there because Nan Joyce was identified by a bot as containing so-called "LGBT keywords". Since Nan Joyce is heterosexual, I am curious to know what "LGBT keywords" precisely were in the article I wrote. It was not my intention to suggest that she is a lesbian. Where is the list of "LGBT keywords", and which did I use? — O'Dea ( talk) 23:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Greetings! In accordance with the conditions set forth in the previous discussion of the Bradley Manning/Chelsea Manning title dispute, a new move request has been filed and is now underway. bd2412 T 20:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/March 9 has a blurb that states:
Given the recent court rulings, is this statement still true? Thanks. — howcheng { chat} 08:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
My nation had an artist who gained a superstar status, from the mid-1950s until the late 1960s at a time when we had no local-TV stations or -radio stations--only a national broadcaster (at a time when we were transitioning from a predominantly rural economy).
A notable member of my nation's intelligentsia (and an administrator of the wikipedia of my language), is now making edits regarding this superstar, who had "celebrity friends [that] had participated in spreading, and that made Prøysen into an almost Christlike figure, the mascot of the entire social democracy, that they could bask in the glory of?" (How this member of the intelligentsia is removing content about other living members of the intelligentsia, might be somewhat questionable.)
The result of the edits are that content is being removed [1] about descriptions about how members of the intelligentsia were non-forthcoming (for several decades after the artist's death) in regards to the artist's bisexuality.
An extra reason to keep the content is that it might give an indication about the general mood in sections of society, after sex between men was decriminalized in the early 1970s. Since only this other editor and I, currently are editing the article and the talk page, we might need some extra help in regards to how the general lines about a person's sexuality should be drawn, in cases like this one.
A quote which also has been removed, is "Furthermore Røsbak says that "I became less and less enthusiastic about the imposition that was alive among friends of Prøysen, about that this [the topic of the sexual preferences] was to be held within engere circles, as a topic over glasses of red wine, as a hot topic of gossip, but that must not be brought any further", out of (what Røbak's sources called) consideration for the family of Prøysen". -- Abalonney ( talk) 11:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi LGBT studies people.
This article for creation was tagged for speedy deletion under
WP:G13, as it had not been edited for months. Retter was significant enough for a
Los Angeles Times
obituary. I've added a JSTOR ref. Could you possibly have a little look at this article?
Pete AU aka --
Shirt58 (
talk) 10:31, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I've been accused of including a "transphobic" item for the April Fool's version of WP:Selected anniversaries. Please comment at WT:Selected anniversaries/April 1#Unfunny jokes. The blurb in question is:
As the story goes, the emperor's infant daughter was announced to be a boy by the Empress Dowager and then installed on the throne as Emperor. So in the tradition of the WP:April Fool's Main Page, we mislead the reader by implying something other than the truth by using wording which is technically accurate. I am genderqueer myself and I didn't see anything wrong with it, but would like additional opinions. Thanks. — howcheng { chat} 10:37, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I've indef-blocked a user for anti-transgender soapboxing on his talk page. [2] However, as I have little experience in these matters, I'd appreciate a 2nd opinion. Rklawton ( talk) 00:27, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
You are invited... | |
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LGBTQ worldwide online edit-a-thon
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-- Ipigott ( talk) 13:55, 9 June 2016 (UTC)
(To subscribe, Women in Red/Invite list. Unsubscribe, Women in Red/Opt-out list)
Flyer22 Reborn ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Flyer22 Reborn has just deleted some edits I had made to an article, Gay sexual practices. She gave as reason this, "Revert editing by editor already warned more than once." What I have been warned about, I don't know - I have not been warned not to make edits on that entry. Many edits I have made, are in fact still there. Here's what she deleted from the entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Gay_sexual_practices&type=revision&diff=741074736&oldid=740834830
Please, be the judge of whether the deletion is a good choice, and whether her justification is fair, and not just mindlessly hurtful and antagonistic. I believe my recent edits were well written, and every single one of their assertions was backed by a reliable source.
Over a year ago User:Flyer22 Reborn and I had a disagreement over a separate article, one about neurological differences across sexual orientations. I had made some contributions about performance differences between gay and straight people on intelligence tests; the edits were all based on reliable sources - peer-reviewed works from scientific journals. She, however, decided the edits were biased in favor of gay people, arbitrarily removed them with what, in my view, were awful arguments, but because her friends agreed with her, I've been permanently outnumbered and my supposedly "pro-gay" edits have been deleted for over a year. Every time I tried to edit other parts of that entry - again using reliable sources - I was reverted, so I gave up on it. But User:Flyer22 Reborn has taken her crusade to other articles as well, such as the one above. She doesn't care that my contributions are informed by the scientific literature - she will delete them. I've waged edit wars before and I've lashed back offensively at User:Flyer22 Reborn and her friends, for which I've been temporarily banned. I've not always behaved well, but neither has she. From the beginning, when she decided she disliked my edits on intelligence and sexual orientation, she accused me right away of maligning straight people, failing to assume good faith from the upstart. In my edits to the entry about gay sex practices, she's furthermore accused me of being obsessed with anal sex. Because of my immaturity, I've not always been able to handle her ceaseless provocations well, for which I've been punished. She, however, has escaped all consequences.
I'm a gay man, I have a natural interest in these topics. My edits, furthermore, comply with Wikipedia's policies; they are written in a clear and concise style (which not always can be said for User:Flyer22 Reborn's contributions) and they are always grounded on reliable sources. If User:Flyer22 Reborn or someone else dislikes what I'm saying, there are kinder and more constructive ways to go about any disagreements. The way she's doing it, it feels like I'm banned from ever contributing on gay issues on Wikipedia, which I'm not. I'm tired of what I feel is arbitrary deletions, with provocative justifications, of my good faith edits; but I don't want to merely lash back anymore - I don't want to get into trouble with Wikipedia's interaction rules again, which I know are here for a reason. So I am appealing to the wisdom of LGBT project members and ask them to to weigh in. Rafe87 ( talk) 09:57, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
That you fail to see how you've mischaracterized me is proof only of your own reading limitations. I explicitly pointed out one instance how you've just done that, today. It is right there, a couple posts above, where I show how you surreptitiously change your charges against me according to the audience you're talking to: in the Talk Page, you say I rely on "individual studies" (which is the minimal number of studies needed to be able to insert a proposition, by the way?); however, in asking for the page to be put under protection, you accused me of something graver - of messing with sourced material. All my "unsourced" changes to "sourced material" are actually based on the relevant source itself. You can't see that because you don't have access to the studies yourself, or if you do, you're failing your responsibility as an editor by not checking them. That's what you should do to see if any one editor's changes are representing the source accurately or not - you should check them; you shouldn't just delete the edits right away. When I say that the NSSHB paper that is discussed in the entry analyzed data from sexually active men aged 18-59, it's because that's what it does. However, in your zeal to ban me from any participation in the entry, you seem to have decided that the part where it says "aged 18-59" should be deleted, based on the mere fact that it was added by me after the first part of the sentence had been added (by me, by the way - all NSSHB's references in that entry came from me; as proof of my commitment to improving the entry, I'm always looking for more sources to add). In any case, if you don't have access to the paper, please, stop pretending to know what's written in it. Stop messing with the entry and misrepresenting the content that was found and inserted into the entry by me.
I agree that the phrasing I used to discuss the study on North American medical student is inaccurate. But there are other ways to remedy the problem than what you're doing - blanket deletion of sourced material and angry accusations that your fellow editor has an agenda. You could, for example, follow the advice I have just given you in the "gay sex practiced" talk page: "We can simply notice that the study was based on a convenience, not probability, sample, that volunteers were self-selected, that they were students" etc. But no. You respond to my advice, not candidly, but with whiny complaints that I "don't listen", like you're doing now, without making any effort whatsoever to engage with the substance of my advice. You keep saying that "second sources" show that anal sex is less favored than other sex practices, but they say nothing about most gay men never engaging in it - if they had, you'd have inserted that claim yourself. Scientific data do show most, in fact the large majority of, gay men have had anal sex before. No source, primary or secondary, says otherwise. It's you who are mischaracterizing the scientific consensus by saying they somehow prove most gay men don't have anal sex just because "only" large minorities, about a third, take up one of the anal sex positions in their last sexual encounter. Since no secondary source says the thing you most wish to hear, that gay men don't have anal sex, my use of primary sources (plural) is not controversial.
I have no idea why is it bad to insert studies based on US samples. As a non-American, I certainly don't favor them. However, the US does hit above its weight in the world of scientific publications. A large number of studies on any topic (especially studies in English) will therefore have US researchers as authors and US samples as source of the data. However, on the topic of anal sex, if diversity is the problem, I also made reference to an Australian survey, which I think you've just deleted, despite the high quality of the dataset. And as I told you just now in the talk page of the entry, the data I referenced before, showing high participation in anal sex among gay men, is from Portugal. In my edits about sexual dysfunctions, I made reference to papers not only from the US, but also from the Netherlands and Croatia. To no avail. You deleted all of them. On the subject of the sexual dysfunction edits, for that matter, you should know that just utterring the words "MEDRS" doesn't magically explain anything. You think that by making bombastic accusations alone you're proving your case - but you are not. That's been your failing for quite a while - you want to tell me my edits violate the guidelines, without saying how. Which is quite a passive-aggressive way of going about things.
Anyway, I have two secondary sources on the issue of sexual dysfunctions. If I add them, will you remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rafe87 ( talk • contribs) 13:25, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm back. This was going to take longer, but in addition to the fact that there is not much out there about the prevalence of anal sex among gay couples (or heterosexual couples, for that matter), unless in relation to sexually transmitted infections (particularly HIV), and the fact that I am pressed for time, I decided that there was no point in gathering even more sources. Using the sources that already exist on Wikipedia (including ones I added) in addition to a few additional ones is sufficient enough for what I have to state. As far as the prevalence of anal sex among gay men (or MSM) goes, one of my points has consistently been that studies on the matter differ, which is why we should not be citing individual study after individual study. There are a number of studies we could cite on the matter and they would mostly be U.S.-based. We do not pile study on top of study in our articles. Not usually anyway. And we generally should not cause an article to be U.S.-centric and deserving of a Template:Globalize tag. If the article is not specifically about the U.S., and there is some material on the topic with regard to other countries, U.S. statistic after U.S. statistic is not the way to go. Throwing in primary source statistics from other countries is also not the way to go. Having a few primary sources, especially if the literature is lacking, can be fine. But, generally, we are supposed to look at what tertiary and secondary sources state, especially what secondary sources state, and report on the literature that way.
Click on this to see some of what the WP:Primary, secondary, and tertiary, sources policy states.
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WP:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources states, " Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent or third-party sources. An account of a traffic incident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the event; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources.
All of that is why secondary sources are preferred. |
One of my other points about covering anal sex in the Gay sexual practices article is that the sexual practices of gay men are varied, far more varied than the average person thinks, and that the article should not be mostly about anal sex. To this point, I've also noted that anal sex is generally one of the least practiced and/or least favored sexual activities among gay men and other MSM ( men who have sex with men). Actually, since the MSM category is broader than the gay male category, there are some higher prevalence numbers for anal sex among MSM than there are for anal sex among the gay male category, but anal sex has consistently been cited as one of the least practiced sexual activities among heterosexual, gay male and lesbian couples. Despite Rafe87's assertions, I have not used the sources to assert that most gay men don't have anal sex, and I have certainly never stated that gay men don't have anal sex. If one reads the entire discussion at the Gay sexual practices article talk page, one should see that I stated a number of concerns about Rafe87's additions. I have not doubted that many gay men or other MSM have tried anal sex or engage in anal sex on a regular basis. Having tried anal sex, whether once or twice, or significantly more than that, however, is not the same thing as anal sex actually being a continual part of one's sex life. When text in the article states that "Many MSM, however, do not engage in anal sex," that is exactly what the text means. It should not be changed to "Many MSM do not frequently engage in anal sex." The first is a clear-cut fact that can be supported by a number of reliable secondary sources. The second is a piece that only applies to some MSM, since many MSM have not engaged in anal sex at all or do so very rarely.
Click on this to see sources noting that reports on the prevalence of anal sex among gay men/MSM vary, and/or that anal sex is the least or one of the least practiced sexual activities.
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Starting with older data to more recent data. Only a few sources are needed since other sources I looked at either report on the same data and/or essentially state the same thing. But if editors want me to cite more, I will. Revisiting these types of sources, I noticed what I noticed before -- for decades now, the literature has continually placed anal sex behind oral sex and mutual masturbation among gay men. And with most of the data being U.S.-based, British-based and/or Europe-based, we need to be careful not to overstate matters when it comes to generalizations. I did come across a source on Japan data, though; it's included below, and echoes what I've read in the past on the matter. I also looked at this review (Understanding of norms regarding sexual practices among gay men) to see what more I could relay; yes, I have access to the full article. 1. This 2004 Out source, page 76, states, "The perception of many [is that everyone is doing it]. But that's simply not true. A 1994 study conducted by the University of Chicago found that in a sample of gay and bisexual American males, approximately one fifth to one quarter of men surveyed had never engaged in anal sex either as a top or bottom. In the United Kingdom's 2000 National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles, only 64% of gay men reported having anal intercourse in the past year. Other American and British studies indicate that as many as one in three gay couples do not have anal sex on a regular basis. In the Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Men, author Bill Brent writes, 'While reports and studies over the past decade on the prevalence of anal sex among gay men vary widely, it's clear that many gay men never engage in it. In short, there's a large number of guys out there who aren't doing it, many more than one would think." 2. This source is a blog, but it's from scholar Justin J. Lehmiller, and he's asking "Do Gay Men’s Sex Lives Match Up With The Stereotypes?" Citing some of the literature, which is also included in the Gay sexual practices article, he states, "A 2011 study published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine reported on the sexual behaviors of a national U.S. sample of nearly 25,000 gay and bisexual men recruited online. Participants were asked to describe the details of their most recent sexual event with a male partner. Results indicated that gay men have an incredibly diverse sexual repertoire, with over 1,300 unique combinations of sexual behavior reported. Most participants (63.2%) reported engaging in somewhere between five and nine different sexual activities during their most recent sexual encounter. [...] The single most commonly reported behavior was kissing on the mouth (74.5%), followed closely by oral sex (72.7%) and mutual masturbation (68.4%). Contrary to popular belief, only about one-third of men in the sample reported engaging in anal sex (37.2%). This tells us that the common assumption that 'gay sex' is necessarily anal sex is inaccurate." Again, having a few primary sources, especially if the literature is lacking, can be fine. But we shouldn't include primary source after primary source. 3. This 2012 Sexual Health: A Public Health Perspective: A Public Health Perspective source, from McGraw-Hill Education, page 91, states, "The equation of 'homosexual' with 'anal' sex among men is common among lay and health professionals alike. Yet an Internet survey of over 180,000 MSM across Europe (EMIS, 2011) showed that oral sex was most commonly practised, followed by mutual masturbation, with anal intercourse in third place." 4. This 2014 (reprint) Psychology Applied to Modern Life: Adjustment in the 21st Century source, from Cengage Learning, page 408, states, "Anal intercourse is more popular among homosexual male couples than among heterosexual couples. However, even among gay men it ranks behind oral sex and mutual masturbation." 5. This 2015 (reprint) Gender: Psychological Perspectives, Sixth Edition source, from Psychology Press (and reporting on older data), page 484, states, "Sex is a very important part of life for gay men, and their relationships typically include a lot of sexual activity, especially early in the relationship [...] Fellatio is an important activity for gay men, but their sex lives are varied, and mutual masturbation is also a common activity. Anal intercourse was never as common an activity as either oral sex or manual stimulation, and its dangers for spreading HIV infection have made it less common than before the appearance of HIV." 6. This 2015 Sexuality Now: Embracing Diversity source, from Cengage Learning, page 290, states, "Although many gay men report engaging in anal intercourse, not all gay men do. The NHSLS study found that although the majority of gay men reported engaging in anal intercourse, 20% of gay men did not (Laumann et al., 1994). Receptive anal intercourse is less frequent: an estimated 7% of men age 14 to 94 years reported being a receptive partner during anal intercourse (Reece et al., 2010d)." 7. This 2015 50 Great Myths of Human Sexuality source, from John Wiley & Son, page 105, states, "Though anal sex may be automatically associated with gay men, it is important to remember that not all men who have anal sex are gay (they may identify as bisexual or even heterosexual but occasionally have sex with another man) and not all gay men have anal sex. Research indicates that 2–10% of males in the United States have had a same-sex adult sexual experience, but only a small minority regularly engages in receptive intercourse [...] It is estimated that approximately half to at most two-thirds of sexually active men who have sex with men in the United States regularly engage in receptive anal intercourse [...]. The consensus of most researchers is that roughly 1% to at most 1.5% of adult males (or approximately 1 million men in the United States) regularly practices receptive anal sex." And regarding what this source states, take note that it is sometimes important to observe whether sources are talking about being the penetrative or receptive partner, or both. 8. This 2015 Beyond Common Sense: Sexuality And Gender In Contemporary Japan source, from Routledge, page 112, states, "That HIV spreads comparatively slowly within gay circles in Japan is most likely due to two factors: many gay men do not or very rarely have sex with other men, i.e. have sex mostly or exclusively with themselves, and sexual practices among gay men tend to be limited to mutual masturbation and oral sex rather than anal sex." |
Rafe87 complained that I reverted most of his "Sexual problems and health risks" material. When looking at that material, I see medical assertions, some strong ones too, based on primary sources. This primary source that was used even states, "Prevalence studies about men's sexual problems are mostly focused on heterosexual samples and little is known about the frequency of sexual problems and associated distress in gay men. This study is aimed at assessing and comparing the frequency of self-perceived sexual problems in gay and heterosexual men, and associated distress." The section also gives WP:Undue weight to a Dutch survey.
There are very valid reasons why we should not be relying so heavily on primary sources for medical content:
Click on this to see some of what the WP:MEDRS guideline states about use of primary sources.
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Primary sources should not be cited with intent of "debunking", contradicting, or countering any conclusions made by secondary sources. Synthesis of published material advancing a position is original research, and Wikipedia is not a venue for open research. Controversies or uncertainties in medicine should be supported by reliable secondary sources describing the varying viewpoints. Primary sources should not be aggregated or presented without context in order to undermine proportionate representation of opinion in a field. If material can be supported by either primary or secondary sources – the secondary sources should be used. Primary sources may be presented together with secondary sources. Findings are often touted in the popular press as soon as original, primary research is reported, before the scientific community has analyzed and commented on the results. Therefore, such sources should generally be entirely omitted (see recentism). Determining weight of studies generally requires reliable secondary sources (not press releases or newspaper articles based on such sources). If conclusions are worth mentioning (such as large RCTs with surprising results), they should be described appropriately as from a single study:
Given time a review will be published, and the primary sources should preferably be exchanged for the review. Using secondary sources then allows facts to be stated with greater reliability [...] If no reviews on the subject are published in a reasonable amount of time, then the content and primary source should be removed. A reason to avoid primary sources in the biomedical field [...] is that they are often not replicable, and are therefore unsuitable for use in generating encyclopedic, reliable biomedical content. Further, the fact that a claim is published in a refereed journal need not make it true. Even well-designed randomized experiments will occasionally (with low probability) produce spurious results. Experiments and studies can produce flawed results or even fall victim to deliberate fraud (e.g. the Retracted article on dopaminergic neurotoxicity of MDMA and the Schön scandal.)
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I ask that, when replying, no one cuts in between this long post of mine. The post goes together and I don't want any confusion by an editor's post being in between what I stated. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:45, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Flyer22 Reborn ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The complaints are the same as before, since they have not been addressed in all these months by the Wikiproject. I'm also expanding my complaints against her to the entry Anal sex, where User talk:Flyer22 Reborn is also taking her temper tantrum against me and the reliable sources I use. She also straight away insulted me, saying I'm POV pushing, without even explaining HOW. As long as the board refuses to address the problem, it won't be go away, as Fly is beyond reasoning. Rafe87 ( talk) 15:10, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I found an old conversation on Template talk:Infobox Wikipedia user about the gender field. I mentioned that pronouns should be included, too. Just thought I would notify you here. = paul2520 21:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Please comment here. SW3 5DL ( talk) 04:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I have suggested that Recognition of same-sex unions in Germany move to Same-sex marriage in Germany. Discussion. Me-123567-Me ( talk) 03:01, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd be grateful for some opinions about flagging talk pages of articles on living persons with the WP LGBT project where the subjects have not 'come out' as having LGBT lifestyles. I would like to have opinions as to whether such LGBT flagging can be used without transgressing WP:BLP, where the subject has not admitted to leading an LGBT lifestyle. I've recently noted two examples amongst UK current/former politicians - but there may be more.
I would be glad for opinions. -- Smerus ( talk) 16:09, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Feedback request: This is a long discussion already. It is worth highlighting in just the opening statement there are unusual claims made about "transgender editors", which to date have no substantiation (because logically they cannot be substantiated) and have not been removed, emphasis mine:
I think this sets an interesting precedent for Wikipedia, especially if in practice nobody is prepared to take action to remove or correct unsourced claims about all transgender Wikipedians. Anyone care to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick about what is meant by these words? I believe this is very similar to what a person would write if they are promoting a "trans ideology" exists for all trans people, similar to how most proponents of a "gay agenda" honestly believe there is a conspiracy between all homosexuals.
As a courtesy: @ Halo Jerk1:.
This WikiProject LGBT project page is archived and is no longer actively maintained. Please post notices and questions at WT:LGBT. |
This project page was nominated for deletion on 16 June 2006. The result of the discussion was Keep. |
Previous discussions:
I'm sure I mentioned Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mishk'vei ishah before. But I can't find it in this page's history, or archives.
Its still at AfD, if anyone wants to express their view. Newman Luke ( talk) 17:04, 22 November 2009 (UTC)
Three years ago, John Bosco was a disputed article that was moderated and settled in this Wikipedia:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Notice_board/Archive_2. It appears that the two editors, who sparked the dispute, are back and trying to deleted the compromise. How does this case get re-opened?
There is a discussion related to LGBT issues at the Talk:2022 FIFA World Cup page. Grim23 ★ 02:45, 4 December 2010 (UTC)
I propose that we add a commitment to accessibility and equality to the Five pillars. Please join discussion at Wikipedia talk:Five pillars#Accessibility and equality. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 16:32, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
There seems to have been a bit of a situation brewing at Liberace; over the past several months, there seems to have been a slow-motion edit war consisting of anonymous IPs removing LGBT-related categories from the article on the grounds that denying it during his lifetime somehow proves that he wasn't, followed by a signed-in Wikipedia editor later readding them, followed by another anonymous IP removing them again, lather, rinse, repeat.
Obviously this isn't acceptable, so I need to ask for some additional eyes to watchlist the article in case this crops up again. Thanks. Bearcat ( talk) 02:34, 31 March 2013 (UTC)
At time of writing, clicking the "What links here?" link at the Nan Joyce article shows that Wikipedia:WikiProject LGBT studies/Noticeboard links there because Nan Joyce was identified by a bot as containing so-called "LGBT keywords". Since Nan Joyce is heterosexual, I am curious to know what "LGBT keywords" precisely were in the article I wrote. It was not my intention to suggest that she is a lesbian. Where is the list of "LGBT keywords", and which did I use? — O'Dea ( talk) 23:08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Greetings! In accordance with the conditions set forth in the previous discussion of the Bradley Manning/Chelsea Manning title dispute, a new move request has been filed and is now underway. bd2412 T 20:50, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Selected anniversaries/March 9 has a blurb that states:
Given the recent court rulings, is this statement still true? Thanks. — howcheng { chat} 08:14, 8 March 2014 (UTC)
My nation had an artist who gained a superstar status, from the mid-1950s until the late 1960s at a time when we had no local-TV stations or -radio stations--only a national broadcaster (at a time when we were transitioning from a predominantly rural economy).
A notable member of my nation's intelligentsia (and an administrator of the wikipedia of my language), is now making edits regarding this superstar, who had "celebrity friends [that] had participated in spreading, and that made Prøysen into an almost Christlike figure, the mascot of the entire social democracy, that they could bask in the glory of?" (How this member of the intelligentsia is removing content about other living members of the intelligentsia, might be somewhat questionable.)
The result of the edits are that content is being removed [1] about descriptions about how members of the intelligentsia were non-forthcoming (for several decades after the artist's death) in regards to the artist's bisexuality.
An extra reason to keep the content is that it might give an indication about the general mood in sections of society, after sex between men was decriminalized in the early 1970s. Since only this other editor and I, currently are editing the article and the talk page, we might need some extra help in regards to how the general lines about a person's sexuality should be drawn, in cases like this one.
A quote which also has been removed, is "Furthermore Røsbak says that "I became less and less enthusiastic about the imposition that was alive among friends of Prøysen, about that this [the topic of the sexual preferences] was to be held within engere circles, as a topic over glasses of red wine, as a hot topic of gossip, but that must not be brought any further", out of (what Røbak's sources called) consideration for the family of Prøysen". -- Abalonney ( talk) 11:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)
Hi LGBT studies people.
This article for creation was tagged for speedy deletion under
WP:G13, as it had not been edited for months. Retter was significant enough for a
Los Angeles Times
obituary. I've added a JSTOR ref. Could you possibly have a little look at this article?
Pete AU aka --
Shirt58 (
talk) 10:31, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
I've been accused of including a "transphobic" item for the April Fool's version of WP:Selected anniversaries. Please comment at WT:Selected anniversaries/April 1#Unfunny jokes. The blurb in question is:
As the story goes, the emperor's infant daughter was announced to be a boy by the Empress Dowager and then installed on the throne as Emperor. So in the tradition of the WP:April Fool's Main Page, we mislead the reader by implying something other than the truth by using wording which is technically accurate. I am genderqueer myself and I didn't see anything wrong with it, but would like additional opinions. Thanks. — howcheng { chat} 10:37, 17 April 2015 (UTC)
I've indef-blocked a user for anti-transgender soapboxing on his talk page. [2] However, as I have little experience in these matters, I'd appreciate a 2nd opinion. Rklawton ( talk) 00:27, 8 November 2015 (UTC)
You are invited... | |
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Flyer22 Reborn ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
User:Flyer22 Reborn has just deleted some edits I had made to an article, Gay sexual practices. She gave as reason this, "Revert editing by editor already warned more than once." What I have been warned about, I don't know - I have not been warned not to make edits on that entry. Many edits I have made, are in fact still there. Here's what she deleted from the entry:
https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Gay_sexual_practices&type=revision&diff=741074736&oldid=740834830
Please, be the judge of whether the deletion is a good choice, and whether her justification is fair, and not just mindlessly hurtful and antagonistic. I believe my recent edits were well written, and every single one of their assertions was backed by a reliable source.
Over a year ago User:Flyer22 Reborn and I had a disagreement over a separate article, one about neurological differences across sexual orientations. I had made some contributions about performance differences between gay and straight people on intelligence tests; the edits were all based on reliable sources - peer-reviewed works from scientific journals. She, however, decided the edits were biased in favor of gay people, arbitrarily removed them with what, in my view, were awful arguments, but because her friends agreed with her, I've been permanently outnumbered and my supposedly "pro-gay" edits have been deleted for over a year. Every time I tried to edit other parts of that entry - again using reliable sources - I was reverted, so I gave up on it. But User:Flyer22 Reborn has taken her crusade to other articles as well, such as the one above. She doesn't care that my contributions are informed by the scientific literature - she will delete them. I've waged edit wars before and I've lashed back offensively at User:Flyer22 Reborn and her friends, for which I've been temporarily banned. I've not always behaved well, but neither has she. From the beginning, when she decided she disliked my edits on intelligence and sexual orientation, she accused me right away of maligning straight people, failing to assume good faith from the upstart. In my edits to the entry about gay sex practices, she's furthermore accused me of being obsessed with anal sex. Because of my immaturity, I've not always been able to handle her ceaseless provocations well, for which I've been punished. She, however, has escaped all consequences.
I'm a gay man, I have a natural interest in these topics. My edits, furthermore, comply with Wikipedia's policies; they are written in a clear and concise style (which not always can be said for User:Flyer22 Reborn's contributions) and they are always grounded on reliable sources. If User:Flyer22 Reborn or someone else dislikes what I'm saying, there are kinder and more constructive ways to go about any disagreements. The way she's doing it, it feels like I'm banned from ever contributing on gay issues on Wikipedia, which I'm not. I'm tired of what I feel is arbitrary deletions, with provocative justifications, of my good faith edits; but I don't want to merely lash back anymore - I don't want to get into trouble with Wikipedia's interaction rules again, which I know are here for a reason. So I am appealing to the wisdom of LGBT project members and ask them to to weigh in. Rafe87 ( talk) 09:57, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
That you fail to see how you've mischaracterized me is proof only of your own reading limitations. I explicitly pointed out one instance how you've just done that, today. It is right there, a couple posts above, where I show how you surreptitiously change your charges against me according to the audience you're talking to: in the Talk Page, you say I rely on "individual studies" (which is the minimal number of studies needed to be able to insert a proposition, by the way?); however, in asking for the page to be put under protection, you accused me of something graver - of messing with sourced material. All my "unsourced" changes to "sourced material" are actually based on the relevant source itself. You can't see that because you don't have access to the studies yourself, or if you do, you're failing your responsibility as an editor by not checking them. That's what you should do to see if any one editor's changes are representing the source accurately or not - you should check them; you shouldn't just delete the edits right away. When I say that the NSSHB paper that is discussed in the entry analyzed data from sexually active men aged 18-59, it's because that's what it does. However, in your zeal to ban me from any participation in the entry, you seem to have decided that the part where it says "aged 18-59" should be deleted, based on the mere fact that it was added by me after the first part of the sentence had been added (by me, by the way - all NSSHB's references in that entry came from me; as proof of my commitment to improving the entry, I'm always looking for more sources to add). In any case, if you don't have access to the paper, please, stop pretending to know what's written in it. Stop messing with the entry and misrepresenting the content that was found and inserted into the entry by me.
I agree that the phrasing I used to discuss the study on North American medical student is inaccurate. But there are other ways to remedy the problem than what you're doing - blanket deletion of sourced material and angry accusations that your fellow editor has an agenda. You could, for example, follow the advice I have just given you in the "gay sex practiced" talk page: "We can simply notice that the study was based on a convenience, not probability, sample, that volunteers were self-selected, that they were students" etc. But no. You respond to my advice, not candidly, but with whiny complaints that I "don't listen", like you're doing now, without making any effort whatsoever to engage with the substance of my advice. You keep saying that "second sources" show that anal sex is less favored than other sex practices, but they say nothing about most gay men never engaging in it - if they had, you'd have inserted that claim yourself. Scientific data do show most, in fact the large majority of, gay men have had anal sex before. No source, primary or secondary, says otherwise. It's you who are mischaracterizing the scientific consensus by saying they somehow prove most gay men don't have anal sex just because "only" large minorities, about a third, take up one of the anal sex positions in their last sexual encounter. Since no secondary source says the thing you most wish to hear, that gay men don't have anal sex, my use of primary sources (plural) is not controversial.
I have no idea why is it bad to insert studies based on US samples. As a non-American, I certainly don't favor them. However, the US does hit above its weight in the world of scientific publications. A large number of studies on any topic (especially studies in English) will therefore have US researchers as authors and US samples as source of the data. However, on the topic of anal sex, if diversity is the problem, I also made reference to an Australian survey, which I think you've just deleted, despite the high quality of the dataset. And as I told you just now in the talk page of the entry, the data I referenced before, showing high participation in anal sex among gay men, is from Portugal. In my edits about sexual dysfunctions, I made reference to papers not only from the US, but also from the Netherlands and Croatia. To no avail. You deleted all of them. On the subject of the sexual dysfunction edits, for that matter, you should know that just utterring the words "MEDRS" doesn't magically explain anything. You think that by making bombastic accusations alone you're proving your case - but you are not. That's been your failing for quite a while - you want to tell me my edits violate the guidelines, without saying how. Which is quite a passive-aggressive way of going about things.
Anyway, I have two secondary sources on the issue of sexual dysfunctions. If I add them, will you remove it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rafe87 ( talk • contribs) 13:25, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
I'm back. This was going to take longer, but in addition to the fact that there is not much out there about the prevalence of anal sex among gay couples (or heterosexual couples, for that matter), unless in relation to sexually transmitted infections (particularly HIV), and the fact that I am pressed for time, I decided that there was no point in gathering even more sources. Using the sources that already exist on Wikipedia (including ones I added) in addition to a few additional ones is sufficient enough for what I have to state. As far as the prevalence of anal sex among gay men (or MSM) goes, one of my points has consistently been that studies on the matter differ, which is why we should not be citing individual study after individual study. There are a number of studies we could cite on the matter and they would mostly be U.S.-based. We do not pile study on top of study in our articles. Not usually anyway. And we generally should not cause an article to be U.S.-centric and deserving of a Template:Globalize tag. If the article is not specifically about the U.S., and there is some material on the topic with regard to other countries, U.S. statistic after U.S. statistic is not the way to go. Throwing in primary source statistics from other countries is also not the way to go. Having a few primary sources, especially if the literature is lacking, can be fine. But, generally, we are supposed to look at what tertiary and secondary sources state, especially what secondary sources state, and report on the literature that way.
Click on this to see some of what the WP:Primary, secondary, and tertiary, sources policy states.
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WP:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources states, " Primary sources are original materials that are close to an event, and are often accounts written by people who are directly involved. They offer an insider's view of an event, a period of history, a work of art, a political decision, and so on. Primary sources may or may not be independent or third-party sources. An account of a traffic incident written by a witness is a primary source of information about the event; similarly, a scientific paper documenting a new experiment conducted by the author is a primary source on the outcome of that experiment. Historical documents such as diaries are primary sources.
All of that is why secondary sources are preferred. |
One of my other points about covering anal sex in the Gay sexual practices article is that the sexual practices of gay men are varied, far more varied than the average person thinks, and that the article should not be mostly about anal sex. To this point, I've also noted that anal sex is generally one of the least practiced and/or least favored sexual activities among gay men and other MSM ( men who have sex with men). Actually, since the MSM category is broader than the gay male category, there are some higher prevalence numbers for anal sex among MSM than there are for anal sex among the gay male category, but anal sex has consistently been cited as one of the least practiced sexual activities among heterosexual, gay male and lesbian couples. Despite Rafe87's assertions, I have not used the sources to assert that most gay men don't have anal sex, and I have certainly never stated that gay men don't have anal sex. If one reads the entire discussion at the Gay sexual practices article talk page, one should see that I stated a number of concerns about Rafe87's additions. I have not doubted that many gay men or other MSM have tried anal sex or engage in anal sex on a regular basis. Having tried anal sex, whether once or twice, or significantly more than that, however, is not the same thing as anal sex actually being a continual part of one's sex life. When text in the article states that "Many MSM, however, do not engage in anal sex," that is exactly what the text means. It should not be changed to "Many MSM do not frequently engage in anal sex." The first is a clear-cut fact that can be supported by a number of reliable secondary sources. The second is a piece that only applies to some MSM, since many MSM have not engaged in anal sex at all or do so very rarely.
Click on this to see sources noting that reports on the prevalence of anal sex among gay men/MSM vary, and/or that anal sex is the least or one of the least practiced sexual activities.
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Starting with older data to more recent data. Only a few sources are needed since other sources I looked at either report on the same data and/or essentially state the same thing. But if editors want me to cite more, I will. Revisiting these types of sources, I noticed what I noticed before -- for decades now, the literature has continually placed anal sex behind oral sex and mutual masturbation among gay men. And with most of the data being U.S.-based, British-based and/or Europe-based, we need to be careful not to overstate matters when it comes to generalizations. I did come across a source on Japan data, though; it's included below, and echoes what I've read in the past on the matter. I also looked at this review (Understanding of norms regarding sexual practices among gay men) to see what more I could relay; yes, I have access to the full article. 1. This 2004 Out source, page 76, states, "The perception of many [is that everyone is doing it]. But that's simply not true. A 1994 study conducted by the University of Chicago found that in a sample of gay and bisexual American males, approximately one fifth to one quarter of men surveyed had never engaged in anal sex either as a top or bottom. In the United Kingdom's 2000 National Survey of Sexual Attitudes and Lifestyles, only 64% of gay men reported having anal intercourse in the past year. Other American and British studies indicate that as many as one in three gay couples do not have anal sex on a regular basis. In the Ultimate Guide to Anal Sex for Men, author Bill Brent writes, 'While reports and studies over the past decade on the prevalence of anal sex among gay men vary widely, it's clear that many gay men never engage in it. In short, there's a large number of guys out there who aren't doing it, many more than one would think." 2. This source is a blog, but it's from scholar Justin J. Lehmiller, and he's asking "Do Gay Men’s Sex Lives Match Up With The Stereotypes?" Citing some of the literature, which is also included in the Gay sexual practices article, he states, "A 2011 study published in the Journal of Sexual Medicine reported on the sexual behaviors of a national U.S. sample of nearly 25,000 gay and bisexual men recruited online. Participants were asked to describe the details of their most recent sexual event with a male partner. Results indicated that gay men have an incredibly diverse sexual repertoire, with over 1,300 unique combinations of sexual behavior reported. Most participants (63.2%) reported engaging in somewhere between five and nine different sexual activities during their most recent sexual encounter. [...] The single most commonly reported behavior was kissing on the mouth (74.5%), followed closely by oral sex (72.7%) and mutual masturbation (68.4%). Contrary to popular belief, only about one-third of men in the sample reported engaging in anal sex (37.2%). This tells us that the common assumption that 'gay sex' is necessarily anal sex is inaccurate." Again, having a few primary sources, especially if the literature is lacking, can be fine. But we shouldn't include primary source after primary source. 3. This 2012 Sexual Health: A Public Health Perspective: A Public Health Perspective source, from McGraw-Hill Education, page 91, states, "The equation of 'homosexual' with 'anal' sex among men is common among lay and health professionals alike. Yet an Internet survey of over 180,000 MSM across Europe (EMIS, 2011) showed that oral sex was most commonly practised, followed by mutual masturbation, with anal intercourse in third place." 4. This 2014 (reprint) Psychology Applied to Modern Life: Adjustment in the 21st Century source, from Cengage Learning, page 408, states, "Anal intercourse is more popular among homosexual male couples than among heterosexual couples. However, even among gay men it ranks behind oral sex and mutual masturbation." 5. This 2015 (reprint) Gender: Psychological Perspectives, Sixth Edition source, from Psychology Press (and reporting on older data), page 484, states, "Sex is a very important part of life for gay men, and their relationships typically include a lot of sexual activity, especially early in the relationship [...] Fellatio is an important activity for gay men, but their sex lives are varied, and mutual masturbation is also a common activity. Anal intercourse was never as common an activity as either oral sex or manual stimulation, and its dangers for spreading HIV infection have made it less common than before the appearance of HIV." 6. This 2015 Sexuality Now: Embracing Diversity source, from Cengage Learning, page 290, states, "Although many gay men report engaging in anal intercourse, not all gay men do. The NHSLS study found that although the majority of gay men reported engaging in anal intercourse, 20% of gay men did not (Laumann et al., 1994). Receptive anal intercourse is less frequent: an estimated 7% of men age 14 to 94 years reported being a receptive partner during anal intercourse (Reece et al., 2010d)." 7. This 2015 50 Great Myths of Human Sexuality source, from John Wiley & Son, page 105, states, "Though anal sex may be automatically associated with gay men, it is important to remember that not all men who have anal sex are gay (they may identify as bisexual or even heterosexual but occasionally have sex with another man) and not all gay men have anal sex. Research indicates that 2–10% of males in the United States have had a same-sex adult sexual experience, but only a small minority regularly engages in receptive intercourse [...] It is estimated that approximately half to at most two-thirds of sexually active men who have sex with men in the United States regularly engage in receptive anal intercourse [...]. The consensus of most researchers is that roughly 1% to at most 1.5% of adult males (or approximately 1 million men in the United States) regularly practices receptive anal sex." And regarding what this source states, take note that it is sometimes important to observe whether sources are talking about being the penetrative or receptive partner, or both. 8. This 2015 Beyond Common Sense: Sexuality And Gender In Contemporary Japan source, from Routledge, page 112, states, "That HIV spreads comparatively slowly within gay circles in Japan is most likely due to two factors: many gay men do not or very rarely have sex with other men, i.e. have sex mostly or exclusively with themselves, and sexual practices among gay men tend to be limited to mutual masturbation and oral sex rather than anal sex." |
Rafe87 complained that I reverted most of his "Sexual problems and health risks" material. When looking at that material, I see medical assertions, some strong ones too, based on primary sources. This primary source that was used even states, "Prevalence studies about men's sexual problems are mostly focused on heterosexual samples and little is known about the frequency of sexual problems and associated distress in gay men. This study is aimed at assessing and comparing the frequency of self-perceived sexual problems in gay and heterosexual men, and associated distress." The section also gives WP:Undue weight to a Dutch survey.
There are very valid reasons why we should not be relying so heavily on primary sources for medical content:
Click on this to see some of what the WP:MEDRS guideline states about use of primary sources.
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Primary sources should not be cited with intent of "debunking", contradicting, or countering any conclusions made by secondary sources. Synthesis of published material advancing a position is original research, and Wikipedia is not a venue for open research. Controversies or uncertainties in medicine should be supported by reliable secondary sources describing the varying viewpoints. Primary sources should not be aggregated or presented without context in order to undermine proportionate representation of opinion in a field. If material can be supported by either primary or secondary sources – the secondary sources should be used. Primary sources may be presented together with secondary sources. Findings are often touted in the popular press as soon as original, primary research is reported, before the scientific community has analyzed and commented on the results. Therefore, such sources should generally be entirely omitted (see recentism). Determining weight of studies generally requires reliable secondary sources (not press releases or newspaper articles based on such sources). If conclusions are worth mentioning (such as large RCTs with surprising results), they should be described appropriately as from a single study:
Given time a review will be published, and the primary sources should preferably be exchanged for the review. Using secondary sources then allows facts to be stated with greater reliability [...] If no reviews on the subject are published in a reasonable amount of time, then the content and primary source should be removed. A reason to avoid primary sources in the biomedical field [...] is that they are often not replicable, and are therefore unsuitable for use in generating encyclopedic, reliable biomedical content. Further, the fact that a claim is published in a refereed journal need not make it true. Even well-designed randomized experiments will occasionally (with low probability) produce spurious results. Experiments and studies can produce flawed results or even fall victim to deliberate fraud (e.g. the Retracted article on dopaminergic neurotoxicity of MDMA and the Schön scandal.)
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I ask that, when replying, no one cuts in between this long post of mine. The post goes together and I don't want any confusion by an editor's post being in between what I stated. Flyer22 Reborn ( talk) 22:45, 25 September 2016 (UTC)
Flyer22 Reborn ( talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
The complaints are the same as before, since they have not been addressed in all these months by the Wikiproject. I'm also expanding my complaints against her to the entry Anal sex, where User talk:Flyer22 Reborn is also taking her temper tantrum against me and the reliable sources I use. She also straight away insulted me, saying I'm POV pushing, without even explaining HOW. As long as the board refuses to address the problem, it won't be go away, as Fly is beyond reasoning. Rafe87 ( talk) 15:10, 10 December 2016 (UTC)
I found an old conversation on Template talk:Infobox Wikipedia user about the gender field. I mentioned that pronouns should be included, too. Just thought I would notify you here. = paul2520 21:50, 20 February 2017 (UTC)
Please comment here. SW3 5DL ( talk) 04:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
I have suggested that Recognition of same-sex unions in Germany move to Same-sex marriage in Germany. Discussion. Me-123567-Me ( talk) 03:01, 6 July 2017 (UTC)
I'd be grateful for some opinions about flagging talk pages of articles on living persons with the WP LGBT project where the subjects have not 'come out' as having LGBT lifestyles. I would like to have opinions as to whether such LGBT flagging can be used without transgressing WP:BLP, where the subject has not admitted to leading an LGBT lifestyle. I've recently noted two examples amongst UK current/former politicians - but there may be more.
I would be glad for opinions. -- Smerus ( talk) 16:09, 24 December 2017 (UTC)
Feedback request: This is a long discussion already. It is worth highlighting in just the opening statement there are unusual claims made about "transgender editors", which to date have no substantiation (because logically they cannot be substantiated) and have not been removed, emphasis mine:
I think this sets an interesting precedent for Wikipedia, especially if in practice nobody is prepared to take action to remove or correct unsourced claims about all transgender Wikipedians. Anyone care to correct me if I've got the wrong end of the stick about what is meant by these words? I believe this is very similar to what a person would write if they are promoting a "trans ideology" exists for all trans people, similar to how most proponents of a "gay agenda" honestly believe there is a conspiracy between all homosexuals.
As a courtesy: @ Halo Jerk1:.